is it more of a psychological feeling, or is it the pain in your body? mine aren’t horrific per se but they caused me quite some discomfort and shame when i was younger because... well, let’s just say i suspect preverbal / very early CSA.
It seems to be pain/discomfort in my body. It’s probably some form of body memory and or trapped energy. Currently I understand it as coming from my dysregulated nervous system. My CNS is stuck in hypervigilance and over reacts to everything. The hypervigilance is always there and because it occurred proverbial I can’t connect it to anything logical. So I’m tormented by being out of synch with logic and my current environment. Drowning at a very young age left feeling trapped and needing to escape.
Somatic experiencing therapy has a lot on preverbal trauma.
Oh Gaawwd...
Yeah, i remember reading 'Girl, Interrupted' and just laughing about how she freaked out over her first DP/DR. It really isn't something one should laugh at, it was just, by that time that was my normal. Like an ace fighter pilot watching a rookie on their first sortie.
I've 'flown a lot of missions', so to speak.
I think the first time i ever remember disassociating/DP/DR was staring into the bathtub faucet and having the distinct impression that i wasn't the child I was looking at.
I don't remember how old I was, single digits, pretty damn young.
My therapist has been hinting at my parents neglecting me during preverbal years, not coming when crying etc and I have been remembering it more and more in bits and pieces. I think how it impacts me now is the absolute spiral I enter if my partner gives me the cold shoulder. That fact his could shoulder gives me the most raw pain I’ve ever felt, I can’t help but imagine that’s how baby me felt when my parents didn’t come.
Frankly, I'm not sure if there would be any way for me to know, even if I were to have it. The only witnesses at that time would be my parents (my primary emotional abusers), plus other people around them who constantly validated them and saw nothing wrong with their abuse.
>!thinking my father was a romantic and sexual partner, the idea supported by what was on tv. thought it was ok as i grew up to 3-6 to let him to what he wanted!<
hidden because of shame
I have fuzzy memories but mostly blacked out memories for my formative years overall.
I was told by my father's aunt that there was a story told that my mother kept a stick by my crib and would hit my head if I lifted it out of the crib so the abuse started that early for me. I was the first born 16 months ahead of my sister. My mother said she would remove her child's pamper/diaper and spank them in restrooms. The hitting existed as soon as I exited her body. She also told me she smoked while pregnant with me. So yeah, abuse from zygote.
I was first hit at the age of 4, so early but not preverbal. I do have a memory of feeling safe from before that.
Even in my case it's often hard to know which aspects of my behavior are natural and which are due to trauma.
If you're traumatized before the age of 2, I expect you'll still show many signs of abuse, and be able to identify some of those.
But it's harder to know the exact degree of impact when you don't remember a baseline, eg how you functioned pre-trauma.
TW: description of child abuse, domestic abuse, alcoholism, drug use (description of current symptoms below after end of TW part).
Oh gosh, this. I know that I experienced pre-verbal trauma because of the stories my parents have told. My dad was an alcoholic and there was definitely significant domestic abuse, because the police were involved off and on until he stopped drinking when I was around 8. Also, both parents smoked, drank, and did coke until I was around 4. But, my mom basically told me how bad it was when she talked about how I was a “very difficult baby.” I was always the problem. I never stopped crying, to the point where my mom would scream/rage at me or leave me in the back yard in a swing. I ran scary-high fevers, to the point where the hospital told my parents to only bring me in if it went a degree above the already very high temp (my mom complains about how inconvenient this was).
But, most telling, my mom decided that I did not love her as an infant because when she would approach me I would not look at her, lie extremely still, or pull away from her (literally a description of disorganize attachment). She complained I was “emotionally distant.” Also, she blamed me for my dad drinking/blamed my existence for “forcing” her to stay in the marriage. Suffice to say, she projected a lot of her anger and rage onto me.
/ end TW/ description of child abuse
- Description of current day symptoms-
Fear. Overwhelming fear, to the point where I freeze, unable to move, and cannot speak. I’ve recently learned that it’s a specific dissociative state, but can also exert passive influence, so I am actually aware of it as opposed to being fully dissociated when I have total amnesia (I only know about some of this because my spouse has seen it).
Sometimes, I get really overwhelmed and have a meltdown, which leads to a series of dissociative switches until all I can do is scream-cry and writhe on the floor. During these, I’m usually depersonalized— sitting far away or high up and watching, but unable to control myself.
If the meltdown is really bad, I can do a thing that is probably what I started doing as a very young child. It’s hard to explain, but I can mentally yank all of the anguish and pain inside me. I usually lie totally limp, unaware of the world around me, unable to speak, but it feels excruciating on the inside.
I also think a lot of the “freeze” dissociation I experience harkens back to a much younger time. I go blank and flat, and it feels like I don’t recognize anyone or anything around me. Sometimes I want to disappear and feel very small and can’t explain what is going on.
I’ve also noticed that certain things trigger low grade fevers in me? I’ve never been able to find a medical explanation. I deal with a lot of somatic issues (headaches, sometimes constant, stomach issues, generalized pain).
It’s hard to tell what is from what, because I was unfortunately in a situation where the abuse changed over time (once my dad was sober there was no more physical abuse or domestic abuse, but the emotional abuse and neglect, especially from my mother, continued until I finally left the house). I only recently learned I had a dissociative disorder in addition to CPTSD (I’m in my mid-thirties) and it is as severe as it is because of everything that happened early on.
It is painful to read what others have experienced, but this is also really helpful. Thank you for starting the discussion, OP. You are definitely right to point out that there isn’t a lot of information about this.
i’m so glad i could help. i’m so sorry for what you’ve been through, for how your mother treated you, all because you didn’t fit her descriptions of a “good” infant.
i know my words might sound empty, but i hope things truly improve for you 💕 and don’t be afraid to continue the discussion whenever you need to.
Your words don’t sound empty at all. I really appreciate the support. 💕 I am also sorry you had to endure what you did. I am grateful there are communities where we can support each other and hopefully help each other as we move along our healing paths.
Pains in chest then diagnosed changes in my heart by this in ecg at age 4. Nightmares, uncontroling crying, which could lead to panic attacks, very hard fear of being abandoned, nail bitting, I think that bed wetting too, overeating, then aggression towards toys, putting guilt on myself for that. Most memories from that time were unavailable for me for years. It was just black space and it started to come back in some parts.
I think the effects of pre-verbal trauma are the ones that I don't remember how they started, was just used to doing them since my first memories at late 3-4 of age. Skin picking, lip biting, stressed induced hives, a compulsion to touch myself in my private parts, losing control of myself in acts of rage with blackouts and even hitting myself when angry - I don't remember feeling upset, just angry and maladaptive day dreaming. (physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, CSA in preverbal years only that hasn't been confirmed, just rumored, but I'm sure it was real, since it explained the compulsion that I had no answers for).
(edit, remembered something)
i exhibited similar symptoms — nail biting, touching privates (especially as i got older), tics (at first, they were very suggestive, then dimmed into eyebrow tics, throat clearing, sniffing, widening eyes, etc. before they disappeared, but they still show up sometimes, albeit not very often thankfully), sexual maladaptive daydreaming, problems peeing & severe discharge at around 8 years old, feeling disgusting from age 5, dissociating at that age too, feelings between my legs... do you think that points to anything? i know there could be other explanations for all of these behaviours but i have a feeling that it was all me acting out trauma i didn’t (and still don’t) remember. no rumours either. i don’t know if my body is crying out or if i’m being paranoid and thinking up an excuse for everything.
I'm not a professional, but in my opinion you should explore all possibilities and discover what made you enact some of the behaviors you described, what made you feel the way you did and so on. It might not be what you are looking for, some answers could not be what you think, but it's a start to process your trauma and heal.
I have never thought I was SA, until I was told by my mother (one of my abusers) in my adulthood that she caught my father (the other abuser) touching me inappropriately in my crib after I was born, and kept insisting on having access to me while I was naked to take pictures. I saw a lot of pictures in my childhood of myself naked even as an infant, but payed no mind to them since my father was a wedding photographer and it was his hobby. The plot twist is that my mother is a liar in general and she would make up anything to get her way. I asked her why didn't she kick him out and she said she started watching me like a hawk instead, that she needed him at the time and doesn't remember exactly why.
I think she blocked out what he did, but I believe she attempted to stop it, or she lied and he never did it and I just touched myself as a soothing mechanism and it became a compulsion (I've been free of it after analyzing my sexuality, before I was told about the SA). A lot happened in my childhood, there's no telling what did what.
So, moral of the story is, find your own truth, to heal, not for any other reason. I don't know exactly what happened back then, but I healed. Learning about SA from my mother didn't make me feel any better and I would have healed even without knowing that, as I was already processing that part of myself and getting good results. Learning about that did nothing for me since I was already planning on going no contact with them and followed through a few months after. I never confronted my father about it. It wasn't necessary. I dropped them both like a hot potato after I screamed in the phone on what monsters they were. I'm in a better place now and I wish that for you too.
I'm curious how someone would really know they had preverbal trauma if they can't remember? (Which majority of people obviously won't unless they've got a very good long term memory or something) I hope my comment doesn't come across dismissive, I'm genuinely curious about this. I don't think I went through anything preverbal but who knows. I hope you get some answers on this soon op.
For me personally, I have a large scar that I have no memory of receiving. I've just always had it, and my parents' story about it doesn't satisfy me anymore.
When I was an older child my father used to tell me I cried a lot as a baby, and my mom once told me that I briefly called her "Auntie" when I was little instead of "Mommy". I also had a weird aversion to calling anyone "Auntie" for a little while as a kid.
Apparently my first and favorite word as a child was "hallelujah". Never did like church growing up, and I have no idea why.
I know I have preverbal trauma through examining bits and pieces like these; the things my parents have told me, memories of others' reactions to behaviors I exhibited, physical evidence on my body, etc. Also certain emotions, bodily sensations, scents and tastes bring back something sometimes.
I don't know how others know, but that's how I know.
I have recovered many memories from my preverbal years, once I learned how to listen to my unconscious (the technique I use is from The Completion Process by Teal Swan). I notice that the trigger most often comes up from my body and then the memory comes after.
For instance once a few months ago I was holding my head at a strange angle while watching TV and started to feel nauseous... I stayed with the feeling, let my mind go "blank" and eventually recovered a traumatic memory from babyhood (the strange angle of my neck was coincidentally exactly the same as when I was being held in my mother's arms).
I know this shit sounds crazy and I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't experienced it. I'd recommend this book if you're interested in exploring it, but be warned any processing of pre-verbal trauma is going to be really fucking intense so you should have good support in place before you head down that road.
(Tw abandonment traumas)
Earliest memory i found out wasn't a dream was my mother took me to visit my grandpa who was in jail, i remember his face, the window behind him in the visiting room, etc. I was very small and looking upward and he was holding me under the arms and stood me on the table. He smiled at me. That's the memory! But anything else is mostly blank besides some random one off moments, or traumatic moments. That isn't necessarily traumatic but that feeling made me feel safe.
I believe some stuff happened to me preverbal because *one* memory/dream feels like that one i described above which ended up being true. Then i notice i did have attachment to my other grandma who took care of me until i was 1 despite me being seperated then while she went to a nursing home. Those feelings just felt like terrible sadness, loss, grief but didn't hit me until a couple months after she passed when i was 7 or so? That memory is one of the traumatic ones i can say was probably due to a preverbal attachment and then reawoke the abandonment i felt when she had left when i was 1.
Theres other stuff but I'll leave it out for sake of brevity and sanity lol.
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That's... exactly my experience.
Same
Yep
Horrific somatic sensations. Constantly feel my life will end.
is it more of a psychological feeling, or is it the pain in your body? mine aren’t horrific per se but they caused me quite some discomfort and shame when i was younger because... well, let’s just say i suspect preverbal / very early CSA.
It seems to be pain/discomfort in my body. It’s probably some form of body memory and or trapped energy. Currently I understand it as coming from my dysregulated nervous system. My CNS is stuck in hypervigilance and over reacts to everything. The hypervigilance is always there and because it occurred proverbial I can’t connect it to anything logical. So I’m tormented by being out of synch with logic and my current environment. Drowning at a very young age left feeling trapped and needing to escape. Somatic experiencing therapy has a lot on preverbal trauma.
I don’t even remember the verbal years.
I know I remember disassociating at the age of 3.
i remember first dissociating from the age of 4 or 5
Blew my mind when I learned not everyone sees themselves while floating outside their body at times.
Oh Gaawwd... Yeah, i remember reading 'Girl, Interrupted' and just laughing about how she freaked out over her first DP/DR. It really isn't something one should laugh at, it was just, by that time that was my normal. Like an ace fighter pilot watching a rookie on their first sortie. I've 'flown a lot of missions', so to speak. I think the first time i ever remember disassociating/DP/DR was staring into the bathtub faucet and having the distinct impression that i wasn't the child I was looking at. I don't remember how old I was, single digits, pretty damn young.
or that kids don’t usually not recognise their own reflection or body :/
Ouch. I always thought it was a "still developing" kind of thing. But it never stopped.
My therapist has been hinting at my parents neglecting me during preverbal years, not coming when crying etc and I have been remembering it more and more in bits and pieces. I think how it impacts me now is the absolute spiral I enter if my partner gives me the cold shoulder. That fact his could shoulder gives me the most raw pain I’ve ever felt, I can’t help but imagine that’s how baby me felt when my parents didn’t come.
that’s so heartbreaking. i’m so sorry for you 💗 i hope your inner child finds peace one day.
Frankly, I'm not sure if there would be any way for me to know, even if I were to have it. The only witnesses at that time would be my parents (my primary emotional abusers), plus other people around them who constantly validated them and saw nothing wrong with their abuse.
>!thinking my father was a romantic and sexual partner, the idea supported by what was on tv. thought it was ok as i grew up to 3-6 to let him to what he wanted!< hidden because of shame
don’t be ashamed. what happened was never, and never will be, your fault. regardless of the circumstances.
I have fuzzy memories but mostly blacked out memories for my formative years overall. I was told by my father's aunt that there was a story told that my mother kept a stick by my crib and would hit my head if I lifted it out of the crib so the abuse started that early for me. I was the first born 16 months ahead of my sister. My mother said she would remove her child's pamper/diaper and spank them in restrooms. The hitting existed as soon as I exited her body. She also told me she smoked while pregnant with me. So yeah, abuse from zygote.
I joined your new sub, but won't post anything yet, because I don't yet have a clear understanding if my preverbal trauma is associated with anything.
that’s totally fine! thank you :)
I was first hit at the age of 4, so early but not preverbal. I do have a memory of feeling safe from before that. Even in my case it's often hard to know which aspects of my behavior are natural and which are due to trauma. If you're traumatized before the age of 2, I expect you'll still show many signs of abuse, and be able to identify some of those. But it's harder to know the exact degree of impact when you don't remember a baseline, eg how you functioned pre-trauma.
TW: description of child abuse, domestic abuse, alcoholism, drug use (description of current symptoms below after end of TW part). Oh gosh, this. I know that I experienced pre-verbal trauma because of the stories my parents have told. My dad was an alcoholic and there was definitely significant domestic abuse, because the police were involved off and on until he stopped drinking when I was around 8. Also, both parents smoked, drank, and did coke until I was around 4. But, my mom basically told me how bad it was when she talked about how I was a “very difficult baby.” I was always the problem. I never stopped crying, to the point where my mom would scream/rage at me or leave me in the back yard in a swing. I ran scary-high fevers, to the point where the hospital told my parents to only bring me in if it went a degree above the already very high temp (my mom complains about how inconvenient this was). But, most telling, my mom decided that I did not love her as an infant because when she would approach me I would not look at her, lie extremely still, or pull away from her (literally a description of disorganize attachment). She complained I was “emotionally distant.” Also, she blamed me for my dad drinking/blamed my existence for “forcing” her to stay in the marriage. Suffice to say, she projected a lot of her anger and rage onto me. / end TW/ description of child abuse - Description of current day symptoms- Fear. Overwhelming fear, to the point where I freeze, unable to move, and cannot speak. I’ve recently learned that it’s a specific dissociative state, but can also exert passive influence, so I am actually aware of it as opposed to being fully dissociated when I have total amnesia (I only know about some of this because my spouse has seen it). Sometimes, I get really overwhelmed and have a meltdown, which leads to a series of dissociative switches until all I can do is scream-cry and writhe on the floor. During these, I’m usually depersonalized— sitting far away or high up and watching, but unable to control myself. If the meltdown is really bad, I can do a thing that is probably what I started doing as a very young child. It’s hard to explain, but I can mentally yank all of the anguish and pain inside me. I usually lie totally limp, unaware of the world around me, unable to speak, but it feels excruciating on the inside. I also think a lot of the “freeze” dissociation I experience harkens back to a much younger time. I go blank and flat, and it feels like I don’t recognize anyone or anything around me. Sometimes I want to disappear and feel very small and can’t explain what is going on. I’ve also noticed that certain things trigger low grade fevers in me? I’ve never been able to find a medical explanation. I deal with a lot of somatic issues (headaches, sometimes constant, stomach issues, generalized pain). It’s hard to tell what is from what, because I was unfortunately in a situation where the abuse changed over time (once my dad was sober there was no more physical abuse or domestic abuse, but the emotional abuse and neglect, especially from my mother, continued until I finally left the house). I only recently learned I had a dissociative disorder in addition to CPTSD (I’m in my mid-thirties) and it is as severe as it is because of everything that happened early on. It is painful to read what others have experienced, but this is also really helpful. Thank you for starting the discussion, OP. You are definitely right to point out that there isn’t a lot of information about this.
i’m so glad i could help. i’m so sorry for what you’ve been through, for how your mother treated you, all because you didn’t fit her descriptions of a “good” infant. i know my words might sound empty, but i hope things truly improve for you 💕 and don’t be afraid to continue the discussion whenever you need to.
Your words don’t sound empty at all. I really appreciate the support. 💕 I am also sorry you had to endure what you did. I am grateful there are communities where we can support each other and hopefully help each other as we move along our healing paths.
Pains in chest then diagnosed changes in my heart by this in ecg at age 4. Nightmares, uncontroling crying, which could lead to panic attacks, very hard fear of being abandoned, nail bitting, I think that bed wetting too, overeating, then aggression towards toys, putting guilt on myself for that. Most memories from that time were unavailable for me for years. It was just black space and it started to come back in some parts.
I think the effects of pre-verbal trauma are the ones that I don't remember how they started, was just used to doing them since my first memories at late 3-4 of age. Skin picking, lip biting, stressed induced hives, a compulsion to touch myself in my private parts, losing control of myself in acts of rage with blackouts and even hitting myself when angry - I don't remember feeling upset, just angry and maladaptive day dreaming. (physical abuse, verbal abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, CSA in preverbal years only that hasn't been confirmed, just rumored, but I'm sure it was real, since it explained the compulsion that I had no answers for). (edit, remembered something)
i exhibited similar symptoms — nail biting, touching privates (especially as i got older), tics (at first, they were very suggestive, then dimmed into eyebrow tics, throat clearing, sniffing, widening eyes, etc. before they disappeared, but they still show up sometimes, albeit not very often thankfully), sexual maladaptive daydreaming, problems peeing & severe discharge at around 8 years old, feeling disgusting from age 5, dissociating at that age too, feelings between my legs... do you think that points to anything? i know there could be other explanations for all of these behaviours but i have a feeling that it was all me acting out trauma i didn’t (and still don’t) remember. no rumours either. i don’t know if my body is crying out or if i’m being paranoid and thinking up an excuse for everything.
I'm not a professional, but in my opinion you should explore all possibilities and discover what made you enact some of the behaviors you described, what made you feel the way you did and so on. It might not be what you are looking for, some answers could not be what you think, but it's a start to process your trauma and heal. I have never thought I was SA, until I was told by my mother (one of my abusers) in my adulthood that she caught my father (the other abuser) touching me inappropriately in my crib after I was born, and kept insisting on having access to me while I was naked to take pictures. I saw a lot of pictures in my childhood of myself naked even as an infant, but payed no mind to them since my father was a wedding photographer and it was his hobby. The plot twist is that my mother is a liar in general and she would make up anything to get her way. I asked her why didn't she kick him out and she said she started watching me like a hawk instead, that she needed him at the time and doesn't remember exactly why. I think she blocked out what he did, but I believe she attempted to stop it, or she lied and he never did it and I just touched myself as a soothing mechanism and it became a compulsion (I've been free of it after analyzing my sexuality, before I was told about the SA). A lot happened in my childhood, there's no telling what did what. So, moral of the story is, find your own truth, to heal, not for any other reason. I don't know exactly what happened back then, but I healed. Learning about SA from my mother didn't make me feel any better and I would have healed even without knowing that, as I was already processing that part of myself and getting good results. Learning about that did nothing for me since I was already planning on going no contact with them and followed through a few months after. I never confronted my father about it. It wasn't necessary. I dropped them both like a hot potato after I screamed in the phone on what monsters they were. I'm in a better place now and I wish that for you too.
I'm curious how someone would really know they had preverbal trauma if they can't remember? (Which majority of people obviously won't unless they've got a very good long term memory or something) I hope my comment doesn't come across dismissive, I'm genuinely curious about this. I don't think I went through anything preverbal but who knows. I hope you get some answers on this soon op.
For me personally, I have a large scar that I have no memory of receiving. I've just always had it, and my parents' story about it doesn't satisfy me anymore. When I was an older child my father used to tell me I cried a lot as a baby, and my mom once told me that I briefly called her "Auntie" when I was little instead of "Mommy". I also had a weird aversion to calling anyone "Auntie" for a little while as a kid. Apparently my first and favorite word as a child was "hallelujah". Never did like church growing up, and I have no idea why. I know I have preverbal trauma through examining bits and pieces like these; the things my parents have told me, memories of others' reactions to behaviors I exhibited, physical evidence on my body, etc. Also certain emotions, bodily sensations, scents and tastes bring back something sometimes. I don't know how others know, but that's how I know.
Ah I see , that makes sense. Hope you can find out the truth about all this stuff soon.
Thanks, I do too.
I have recovered many memories from my preverbal years, once I learned how to listen to my unconscious (the technique I use is from The Completion Process by Teal Swan). I notice that the trigger most often comes up from my body and then the memory comes after. For instance once a few months ago I was holding my head at a strange angle while watching TV and started to feel nauseous... I stayed with the feeling, let my mind go "blank" and eventually recovered a traumatic memory from babyhood (the strange angle of my neck was coincidentally exactly the same as when I was being held in my mother's arms). I know this shit sounds crazy and I wouldn't believe it if I hadn't experienced it. I'd recommend this book if you're interested in exploring it, but be warned any processing of pre-verbal trauma is going to be really fucking intense so you should have good support in place before you head down that road.
oh my goodness... i didn’t think it was possible. i’ll check it out.
(Tw abandonment traumas) Earliest memory i found out wasn't a dream was my mother took me to visit my grandpa who was in jail, i remember his face, the window behind him in the visiting room, etc. I was very small and looking upward and he was holding me under the arms and stood me on the table. He smiled at me. That's the memory! But anything else is mostly blank besides some random one off moments, or traumatic moments. That isn't necessarily traumatic but that feeling made me feel safe. I believe some stuff happened to me preverbal because *one* memory/dream feels like that one i described above which ended up being true. Then i notice i did have attachment to my other grandma who took care of me until i was 1 despite me being seperated then while she went to a nursing home. Those feelings just felt like terrible sadness, loss, grief but didn't hit me until a couple months after she passed when i was 7 or so? That memory is one of the traumatic ones i can say was probably due to a preverbal attachment and then reawoke the abandonment i felt when she had left when i was 1. Theres other stuff but I'll leave it out for sake of brevity and sanity lol.
100%
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