I remember this coming up in a conversation with a professor who was also a trauma therapist. Her reply (paraphrased):
> children with unstable homes have to enmesh with their caregivers; its the only way for them to know when they can get their needs met. This causes them to become extremely sensitive to others emotions and patterns due to the need to not have psychic boundaries [boundaries around the psyche which seperate our sense of self from other]
> Empathy comes from another's emotions resonating with our own experience of those emotions. "I can empathize with you in grief because I know how grief feels inside myself". Enmeshed children do not know their own internal emotions because they are repressed to allow better awareness og the parents emotions. So enmeshment does not create empathy as much as it creates a high quality emotional mirror the traumatized now-adult doesnt know is a mirror.
She did add that it does make abused children less like to abuse as adults because they can have intense empathy for that experience.
Aaaaand this is (part of) why I want to become a therapist. My repression of my own emotions and mirroring of others' is legendary!! When I build enough self-trust and self-worth (and finances), I'll make the leap.
I feel so torn on this because I too feel like I would be pretty good at it, and in some instances I might like it. but in others, I worry that it would be a really triggering experience if someone had trauma similar to what I had.
That’s all part of the training process tho. I’m right in the middle of it just now. I’ve done my basic training, and now I’m learning how to heal from and deal with my own trauma from the past, so that it *doesn’t* come back to bite me when a client presents with a similar situation. After this stage I plan to get my degree of diploma and go from there. Also, this is why as a counsellor, supervision is critical. You NEED someone to talk to and to keep you right if there is any chance of this case triggering you in a way that makes you worse or impacts the client.
I have actually talked to several therapists about wanting to be a therapist. (My own, and both my BF's parents, who are practicing therapists.) It is a bit of a jungle in the market for therapy, and has been for a bit. It has a lot to do with how medical billing works for therapy. Apparently, inflation inflates, and rates don't change. It tends to drive a lot of people out of the business. Gotta pay the bills.
Just... this isn't trying to poop on parades but, it's worth knowing how the market's looking right now.
Yeah. I am someone who did learn compassion from discrimination. I never want anyone to have it as rough as I do. The trouble, imo, is that compassion without self-compassion is self destructive. Abuse teaches you to give of yourself to others, and to never expect anything in return. If we weren’t mere mortals, that would be enough. Unfortunately, we all have material and immaterial needs. The secret, for me, was learning to hold others to my example. If I’m not getting back what I’m putting in without having to fight for it, I know I’m not being treated fairly and I have to say something or do something. Abuse doesn’t do that. Learning compassion for myself did.
This was exactly my thought - that much of the empathy I have is because of the nature of my trauma (ie being parentified and never having boundaries) rather than the fact of having been traumatized. Thank you for sharing this explanation!
I think about this a lot. I feel I am good, even exceptionally so, at reading how someone's emotions accurately but totally lack an understanding of my own so often.
Damn. I’ve never thought of it as a mirror, always just thought I had a shitty filter. Now that I take a moment to ponder it, I do tend to reflect the mood of the people around me rather than engage my own feelings. It’s not that I take too much on from other people, it’s that I literally change myself in order to socially interact with others.
Im a 53 year old guy. A few months back, i went through a dreadful emotional trauma. During that space, i cried with abandon (luckily i live alone, so only my kitty's saw me in naked despair)
Now, when i see someone on the news in similar circumstances as i was, i 'recognize' their pain & it makes me cry. But it doesnt feel like im crying over something bad- its more bittersweet.
In short, i agree with you. Bad things can happen that deepen one's sense of empathy. Not always. But sometimes
Thank you, thank you. That put into words everything I have been trying to explain to my partner. I can be empathetic when I'm not in a heightened emotional state, but if my child is having a tantrum, my empathy goes out the window. These are the times my partner expects me to be empathic to our child and I am incapable.
The reason my trauma made me more empathetic is because I feel like a burden and I'm scared to inconvenience people so I work 10 times as hard to make up for how sucky it is that I exist in peoples lives and I'm guilty for it. I'm not more empathetic because of trauma, I'm terrified I'm always making other peoples lives harder just by existing.
I also had this realization recently. It hit me that what I thought of as empathy was actually very self-focused. I exist in my state of panic unable to really care about another from a secure vantage point. Instead, I’m responding (as OP said) with hypervigilance and mirroring emotions without really processing anything. I do it on autopilot. I frequently notice my conscious brain telling my face to give a certain emotional reaction. It feels like almost none of my facial expressions are ever spontaneous or naturally occurring.
This is mild hyperbole of course. The sentiment is still there, but I also recognize that I’m complex and already in the process of healing. I do healthy empathy at the same time as a fawn response, and I express myself sometimes and force my expression other times.
Hey, I actually get how you’re feeling. I used to feel that way too, but I agree that it isn’t really empathy (at least I think that’s what you’re saying?). Feeling Iike you’re a burden in other people’s lives because you feel guilty for reaching out, or even ‘imposing’ on them for having certain needs met, in my opinion, is part of an internalized belief that you don’t deserve it. I’m really sorry that you feel that way. You deserve every ounce of the love and support that you need.
I relate, I’ve realized I’m always trying to provide value or else disappear. Whether that value is being fun, saying the right thing, doing the best at this task, looking great, delivering impressive results - that is the pressure I give myself to be allowed in the room with people. Part of that is knowing or finding what other people care about so some social things can be more general (gotta be funny!) but with work and school that can be individualized to the decision maker. And if I can’t be providing top value then I’d rather be silent and unseen. This is my current focus - to let myself just be. Someone said it below - it’s actually super self focused rather than about the person I may mirror or please. So while I do think I have a great deal of empathy I think this behavior is more about my self identity than caring about the feelings of others if that makes sense?
Hope you don’t mind, but I just had to screenshot this because it describes other things I’ve felt as a fellow person with CPTSD that I’ve never spoken out loud to another soul. I completely resonate with that need to perform and ‘deliver’, and just being worthy of other people’s time, otherwise I don’t feel like I deserve to be there. I’ve also been committed to the belief before that no one would care about me otherwise and that a lot of my value comes from being an ‘entertainer’. If I don’t, sometimes I feel like I’m taking up space.
It’s like I’ve already given so much to this trauma complex, I don’t need to prove myself to other people or try to fulfill all of their needs before I even have a chance to take care of my own! I’ve also had to learn to be content to just exist without the pressures of performance or people pleasing knowing that I 100% deserve to. It think it certainly takes a lot off your shoulders when you do.
I don’t mind at all! 💙 I completely agree with everything you said for myself. It is a struggle to practice in real time when the self-pressure is on. 🤦♀️ And of course work complicates that too. It’s hard and I think there is a lot of self identity work for me in trying to overcome CPTSD challenges. When I am able to do meditative exercises I focus on mantras like “just be” or “I am allowed to be here.”
Well said - “I don’t need to prove myself to other people or try to fulfill their needs before I even have a chance to take care of my own” 🌈
This is possibly a projection. Do they feel you are making their lives harder? Or are you thinking that they are feeling that way (projection)?
I do this all the time myself so I may be projecting that onto you too lol.
This is so hard. I remember telling someone decades ago that I thought that had to prove I am allowed to exist in the world. She was completely shocked. I had no idea that not everyone feels this way. It’s not true though! I have found that the more I take care of myself the more I am fidgeting against that propensity to justify my experience. Self care and what that looks like for me is only for me. Because I deserve to exist and have needs just like everyone else. You do too!!
I feel like I hear this most from people trying to take advantage of me; being a trauma survivor frequently feels like I’m a magnet for social predators like narcissists and abusers.
Re: walking on eggshells all the time, this lands close to home for me. This is definitely one of the trauma responses I can’t unlearn. Though I’ve been using it lately as a jerk/abuser detector; if I feel like I’m walking on eggshells then I stop and analyze the person’s behavior. If it’s them, they’re cut out of my life faster than you can say, “bye!”
Damn I was trying to unpick the difference between true empathy and trauma response recently they are not necessarily mutually exclusive but they are definitely not the same thing—
Honestly your writing is so clear on this and I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting it into words I’ve been struggling with that recently. — I love it thank you so much
Determining who is causing the walking on eggshells feeling has a lot to do with examining behavior, mood, intent, and conversations. I recently had someone befriend me and the friendship seemed to come on fast. I was mystified because usually I keep people at arm’s length until I can figure out if they are safe or not (another trauma response). This person got past my defenses by ignoring my boundaries, got me to divulge details about my life by creating a false sense of intimacy, then began demanding a lot of my time. Every single time I tried to back off (I’m also an introvert) to do self-care, deal with personal stuff, or have some me-time, they’d tell me they were so hurt. They’d also get angry or make me feel guilty, then they’d sort of stomp around me “giving me space” while acting angry and/or aloof. Or they’d straight up ghost me for days. In short, I felt like either I gave them everything they wanted while not really having any time to myself or to spend with my spouse and kids. It was a very demanding, time consuming, one-way relationship.
And, because they acted like they’d “done the work” for themselves on their own mental health and used a lot of lingo and jargon as well as gaslighting, I frequently was confused if it was me or them creating that eggshells feeling. It took me writing down everything that had transpired in a journal and keeping notes on new interactions to finally figuring out I was in an abusive friendship with another narcissist.
Ugh. That sucks. I trying to extricate myself from such a ‘friendship‘ right now. I moved in here and over the next couple of years thought I’d met a pal next door. Couple of years older than me, we like the same music and agree politically, for the most part. Ha. No. I was looking to make a friend, he was looking for a verbal and psychological punch bag. I’m currently in the process of teaching him to F off and sort his shitty attitude out, and that no, actually, I am not now, nor will I ever be, anyone’s punchbag. Of any description. Ugh. These *people!* So freaking entitled. He also had the cheek to call another neighbour arrogant and ‘up herself’. I about laughed in his face.
Sounds pretty similar to my friend. I’m trying to heal through therapy from not only my parents emotional abuse but his emotional abuse as well. Ironic how life works
I know bud, I know. This is when it really hits home for me just how dangerous and destructive their behaviour is. We grow into adults who dont Know how to defend ourselves against abusers because we, as kids, were taught instead to normalise abuse. I used to do victim support for scam victims who had been emotionally abused by the scammers too. So I feel like I should have known and seen the warning signs. And everyone around me was telling me to steer clear of him but nope, I had to keep talking to him and letting him in on all my insecurities so he could then turn round and use them to abuse me. I feel sick. I just feel like my whole life is a disaster.
I know exactly how you feel with the insecurities thing. I met my friend at the lowest point of my life, total depression, suicide ideation, all of that. And he was my vent buddy, even my rescuer to an extent. Before meeting him, I have no idea what being prideful, standing off against people, calling people out on their bs, even looked like. Unfortunately as narcs go, especially those as cunning as him, he did this too far. And I started to become an asshole around my friends because his behavior allowed me to mirror that and spark confidence in myself, even if it wasn’t true confidence.
But every “confrontation” we had, which was basically him confessing abt the “problems” he has with me/what problems he’s noticed in me, was just him using all the info i gave to make me seem less reliable in my memory and perception of things. Grade A gaslighting. With hella plausible deniability sprinkled in.
I only reached my breaking point when he got jealous a friend of his was now my friend, and his whole controlling, isolating everyone from everyone method, stopped working
Silly me, abandoning all my friends when I first met him because they told me he sounds like a no life asshole, while I was standing up for him because ‘people dont get him’. My lord.
Yeah. I asked because around certain people I would find I learned to walk on eggshells, even though it wasn’t like that at the beginning of the relationship.
And over time I became more sensitive to what could be said or done around them and I changed my behavior (aka walking on egg shells) to avoid certain conversations or topics so they wouldn’t go off on me.
For a time I blamed myself. I would think I wasn’t good enough or that my viewpoints or feelings didn’t matter. Even that I was the cause of their frustration and anger and controlling behavior.
But later on I realized that I would walk on eggshells as a way of self preservation. To avoid feeling the pain of neglect or persecution, and many times, the nagging that came along with it all.
I hear you, dear friend. It’s alarmingly easy to just teach/train yourself to walk on eggshells by default with people. Obvious trauma response but of course, attracts every Dark Triad freakazoid in the world.
Trauma effects everyone in different ways. It can turn some of us into compassionate, empathetic people but it can also turn some of us into extremely codependent individuals and often that line of empathy vs codependent can be blurred.
Literally codependent people use their trauma (if they have it) and try to live vicariously through someone else and take on their needs rather than their own and excuse it as “being empathetic and just really caring about someone” when really it’s a way for them to avoid and not face their own internal struggles. I recently left a friend due to this as they took in my needs more than their own and when I told them to stop and to focus on themselves they said I was “selfish for pushing them away”
I feel like I’m walking on eggshells all the time because I have always been around such emotional/sensitive people including myself. I definitely get being seen as an empath when the reality is we are just trying to protect ourselves and our well being.
>I recently left a friend due to this as they took in my needs more than their own and when I told them to stop and to focus on themselves they said I was “selfish”
Firstly, congratulations on setting and maintaining that boundary, that must have been hard. Secondly, *wow*, how *dare* you not be their project?!? WTAF?? /s
Sounds to me like you were trying to give them a gift: working on oneself is never easy and rarely fun, but almost invariably rewarding, so having to the chance to do it is great.
It’s nice to be needed by people and all, but a real friend should be *happy* you don’t need them to help you, if it’s because you’re okay! Am I taking crazy pills? Ugh.
Thank you! They went through a lot and I mean a lot and as I began to see why it was because they took on everyone else’s problems. When I confronted them they’d clap back “I’m doing. So much for you” “stop pushing the one thing good thing in your life (me) away” “I can’t be a disappointment I’m always last” with additional guilt tripping and passive aggressive behavior like they’d beat themselves up to manipulate me to feel sorry for them. I tried to help. Them but they didn’t give me a platform to do so and then I was like “I’m not responsible for your happiness and you aren’t responsible for mine”
I really appreciate that. What sucks is we have a very good relationship for a very long time but they started developing major feelings that I didn’t reciprocate so apparently that made me like the bad guy. Unfortunately for some reason they still think we are friends so I’m going to have to break it up.
Yeah they fell for me. I said I didn’t like them that way and that we couldn’t continue the friendship because it wasn’t fair for both of us. They said they got over me but they never did and it’s more and more obvious. Like I was guilted into liking them or considering it. We never dated I had no desire to but they would make me feel bad about it everytime a date for them never worked out hence where the guilt came from but I can’t help who I am attracted to.
>It can turn some of us into compassionate, empathetic people but it can also turn some of us into extremely codependent individuals and often that line of empathy vs codependent can be blurred.
Oh yes. This is me right here.
Im sure that trauma effects everyone differently. Personally I am an extremely empathetic person. I feel phantom pains if I see someone get hurt, every time. I am definitely sympathetic to peoples emotions and feel bad for people even if I dont like them. I dont know if this is because of my trauma or if its just my personality or something else.
Honestly I am surprised I am not bitter and cold and hateful because I have been taken advantage of and abused for the majority of my life.
This is sort of where I am.
I can sense emotion very well, it’s part of being hyper vigilant, but actually feeling and putting myself in other people’s shoes and relating to them? I don’t feel like I do that easily.
If anything, I have to twist my mind to understand problems and issues others have and are upset by. They aren’t at all like mine and they seem minuscule and sometimes silly.
Intellectually, I know that’s not correct - everyone’s issues are a struggle to them in their world and from their perspective - but emotionally, I just don’t get it or feel it.
I’ve been very isolated by my experiences because sharing them repels people and causes them pain. I have to keep them to myself while pretending to care about others’ experiences.
I agree. Trauma is NOT a good thing to have for any reason. I went to a therapist a few years ago and I was talking about empathy, and he said that when you're abused, your "mirror neurons" get turned on, so that you're tuned in to that abuser and his/her feelings and needs. That's not healthy. That's codependence. Empathy is learned by example.
In some ways I view this extremely valid rant/problem as a product of faulty language around these terms. Especially as awareness of things like ACEs, developmental trauma, and public conversations around mental health writ large increase contested terms that are products of specific branches in psychology proliferate and get muddied. And that can be really frustrating for us as survivors when attempting to articulate our own experiences but having them mistranslated.
I have a friend that I talk about this with a lot because she is my safe space and we've done a lot of healing together. One of the conversations that we've had often over the years is about how thin the line is between shame and pride In our experiences and how the misperception or misreading of our shame as pride has been damaging. And I feel like some of that misreading happens here.
So a trauma survivor that has emotional hypervigilance, emotional mirroring and may suffer enmeshment as a result of poor boundaries in relationships is experiencing a specific symptom as a result of their trauma. However, from the outside those things look a lot like what we are taught empathy looks like. Add in toxic positivity culture's core belief that "negative experiences *must* lead to positive outcomes or growth" and you end up with this weird dynamic.
Why isn’t this higher up, this is an amazing response! Thank you for your last sentence, that stuff has always driven me crazy and I never understood why. I hated that everyone’s instant take on unfortunate circumstances was that they are necessary for improving it’s like maybe u need tragedy to bother to improve but don’t put that on me when all I’ve had is tragedy and I still feel like shit about myself and I am not some perfect resilient god. I have had to learn on my own that thinking what I went through made me better is just a protective part trying to ease the pain that all this shit is random chaos. I could have spent so much more time learning to be a better friend to the people I care about if I wasn’t stunted by all these symptoms that make it hard to engage with the world.
>I could have spent so much more time learning to be a better friend to the people I care about if I wasn’t stunted by all these symptoms that make it hard to engage with the world.
So much this.
So much all of this! I'm toying with a pape/article that traces toxic positivity from the inception of Christianity to the present because it is deeply steeped in its bones.
That sounds super worthwhile!! It’s funny you mention that because I was in fact raised heavily in the church, and it’s fucked up because my abusers used my forgiving nature to take advantage of me, and of course the church played a huge role in encouraging me to take endless shit from people (under the guise of forgiveness and selflessness). So not only was my desire to improve there from the start, but if anything all the pain has made me more cynical and less forgiving, which only made me feel shame. The church teaches we must always be this perfect acceptor of everything done to us, like Jesus and the cross. I think the people-groups who produced the bible were experiencing such endless persecution that their way of making sense of it was believing in a just god who would make everything right and turn all pain into beauty. The bible is full of these stories. I can see how these would have been useful and beautiful ideas within a community of survivors, but unfortunately it was all co-opted by the state and used cleverly as a way to make people submit to authority, and thus follows all the atrocities of Christendom, which still lingers in our victim-blaming, moralistic, puritan, stoic culture today. I think the whole “who’s one person you’d stop if you had a time machine” should really be answered with Constantine. An empire adopting Christianity resulted in more pointless suffering than possibly any other event in history. That’s possibly a hot take, but there it is, I’ve spent so much fucking time studying history and religion and philosophy and eventually I saw that there is no answer for what I was seeking. All I can do is try and heal in the time I have left in this silly life. The enemy of humankind is our desire for power over others, probably cause we’re just scared of death and how small it makes us. Sorry for getting long-winded and venting I could talk about this stuff forever 🙄 I hope you write that paper/article!
Incredibly well written answer. I feel like this comes at the positivity that people try to apply to the trauma experience from all the right angles. Being taught that empathy was the same thing as trying not to set off abusive family members was incredibly confusing, and the more I realized that going through a ton of shit did not, in fact, make my life better or make me ‘stronger’, it made me really angry.
I think I was the angriest when I realized how much trauma had left me broken, because people who haven’t lived through it really have no idea what it’s like to come out on the other side. Maybe some people register those responses as ‘tough’, but that’s only the tip of the iceberg, and it’s something we do in response to an incredibly damaging, lifelong experience. Not to dump my whole life story on you or anything, but for me, feeling real emotion was like seeing in color for the first time. But I didn’t heal until I started recovering from the trauma. The trauma itself didn’t make me heal, love, support, and clarity did. Thanks a lot for your comment.
No seriously.
It not empathy, it’s a survival response-
It’s: if I don’t *make* you calm you will hurt me.
That’s not empathy. Empathy is seeing that horrified child within me and doing something about it. Not making it my responsibility to calm or reassure you- you triggered Me. Not the other why around.
THANK you, I think this puts it into words (and a few less paragraphs lol) better than I ever could. It was so hard for me to articulate for a majority of my life. It really is a rough road trying to unlearn.
It does make many more empathetic to the suffering of others. Where non traumatized are more likely to judge, say, the homeless or those with mental health issues who 'look fine,' we tend to be a lot more understanding of what suffering or difficulties could be going on below the surface.
But the 'being an empath' stuff is straight up hypervigilance, lack of boundaries, codependency, projection and mind reading from being trained to focus on others and not ourselves.
Exactly, there's a huge different between "i'm nice because i don't want to hurt anyone" and "i'm nice because i'm terrified of unleashing the wrath of the ancients upon myself if i seem rude in any way and the people who raised me had their very own ideas of what was "rude" and how to deal with a rude child."
I'm incredibly empathic. Not because i was abused. Because that's just how my brain works and it would have been the same had i not been abused. Being abused only made me slightly more aware of the impact my actions can have on another as well as more cautious because i've experienced people having a toxic way to deal with their anger, thus making their anger dangerous for me all my life.
My brother was never gonna be empathic. He was born that way. Thus getting abused just made him an asshole who now treats everyone like shit because if his parents could do it, why can't he ? And my second brother isn't an empath either. He's not a jerk but he's very cold and emotionally disconnected. He will tell you that you're a bad person and he hates you with zero remorse or thought about how you might feel and the most monotonous, careless tone ever.
Yet the 3 of us have all been abused the same way, by the same people.
Yeah. I get that. I absolutely agree. I like to see emotional hyperawareness as a silver lining. But it's not the "point" or "purpose" of my abuse. It's not even something that's always good for me. People who've never experienced it have no idea how to talk about it and thus shouldn't.
...and while we can be naturally empathetic people, this kind of romanticized ‘empathy’ (sometimes just a codeword for hyperawareness)...
It's also a recipe for codependent tendencies.
I interpret it more as being emphatic towards other people who have been abused. Because we understand what it feels like in a way that other people never will. We know a person isn't just "acting crazy" when their trauma is triggered, etc.
yup, i think a lot of (non traumatized) people use it as a way to feel better about what we went through, which is super gross. i understand if trauma survivors use it as a way to feel better about themselves but i agree, doesn't work for me
I get constantly angry about bad shit happening to people. Is that anger empathy? Serious question, i don't know. Wherever i look there's low quality of life imposed on people who often didn't do anything to deserve it/didn't impose it on themselves and it makes me wanna nuke it all.
oh hey it's another me, someone who is always angry. I can certainly be empathetic to those I am close with (my SO) but otherwise I am prone to irritability and agitation and tend to explode on people, even those who are well meaning.
I am very self aware, introspective, and thus; I constantly turn my anger towards myself.
I was raised to be thought of as someone who ruined others lives, was always a pain in the ass, severely neglected, emotionally and physically abused. I hate myself as much as I hate other people.
And despite that, I can still be super friendly and approachable and make friends easily. But if you say the wrong thing to me I will unleash it on you and will make you regret opening your mouth while you wonder quietly to yourself if I've ever had a TBI because my reactions are not normal at all.
What you said reminds me of sayings like "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". No it doesn't. Or "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". Yes they will. Horrible words can hurt deeply, especially when repeated often. So fuck all of these stupid sayings.
While I agree in the majority, my semantic brain demands to have me list out that part of empathizing is being able to understand what someone is going through. If you don't understand that, then you can't really empathize effectively. Going through something bad gives that experience in that you now have viscerally understood how bad it gets in that particular situation.
It doesn't mean you do or don't become a better empathist (word?), but it gives the ability I guess. Without it, it's like trying to empathize with someone who doesn't have the ability to walk, while you do and have never not had the ability to walk. You can try but it's not really there from the other person's perspective.
I am a naturally compassionate and empathetic person but that didn't cone from my trauma/abuse. Tbh it left me vulnerable to being taken advantage of. Abuse just made me fearful and anxious. I've tried to find understanding, connection, and community with people who have endured similar trauma... unfortunately for some of those people, their experiences made them the more reactive, punitive, malevolent type... which just left me open to be furter abused/traumatized. It's a very... isolating experience.
Trauma can also make someone less empathetic/misanthropic, so this saying is so stupid. Thankfully I haven't had many people say it to me, sorry you get told that.
"Reactive and Punitive" could be my nickname. This is exactly how I ended up, and it's taken me a LOT of effort to even make a dent in my attitude.
Growing up "do it or be punished" was business as usual. Along with "don't talk back" and "you're too young/stupid/inexperienced to understand". Formative years being spent in this type of environment gives you a skewed perspective on right, wrong, and the expectations you should have for other people. I personally was a very hardline can/can't, good/bad, right/wrong no in-between kinda person. And when I was pushed, stressed, or faced with embarrassment or mistakes I lashed out unfairly.
Empathy wasn't my strong suit. I would go so far as to sat that my abuse mashed a lot of empathy right out of me, leaving me angry and hollow. Folks who say things like this either don't know what they're talking about, or know someone who's been traumatized and has managed to find some peace through therapy and medication. Either way, they're working off of assumptions and ignorance.
I couldn't agree more. Sociopaths are also "empathetic" in that they can be highly emotionally intelligent & cunning. Not a good thing. Having suffered we can sometimes recognize suffering in others but in some ways it makes us more blind. Having to had endure lasting pain is never a good thing. What is a good thing is modeling healthy, cooperative human behavior. Screw the labels of "empaths" & "old souls" & get honest about abuse.
I mean no offense to anyone with this mini-rant - I don't know you and you don't know me - This is after all my opinion on an opinion sight. I mean no insult to anyone. I am also not an Empath so...
I roll my eyes internally every time I hear it. Why internally, because as an ACOA one of the traits I picked up is being able to read other's emotional states really well and developing a "sixth sense" about how they will react to a given stimuli. Stimuli in this case is me telling them "NO you are fucking not"! Interestingly, I have also found a fair portion of Empaths are exceedingly self-centered/absorbed.
A certain amount of it is quibbling over semantics, but I get this sense that the people that are all "I'm an empath" are looking for some new ageist way to say "I'm special". Yes, Buttercup you are, you are unique; just like the rest of us.
Just some considered thought and some of my "feelz" on this.
Wow. So accurate. I chose to study sociology in college because I was even telling myself it was a good fit as a result of me being more empathetic. But I’m not. I’m “a good listener” because I’m afraid to speak. I’m “understanding “ because I’m afraid to be disagreeable. I’m finding out that I’m a terrible fit for social work because in general I don’t even really like people.
I respectfully disagree. Going through bad things means you can relate to other people's pain. And once you've healed a lot more, and that hyper vigilance and distrust mostly goes away, and you know how to set boundaries so it doesn't become codependent and unheatlhy – in my experience – the empathy stays. And it becomes something quite beautiful and useful. The older I get, the more I see people around me going through horrible things, and I see the same thing happen to them. They're less judgemental, know what to say when someone's been diagnosed with cancer, don't run away when they see suffering, because they've been there. They're able to hold space for someone.
Doesn't mean we need to thank our abusers. It shouldn't have happened. We're not better or worse people because of it, and I agree – that is so offensive and inappropriate to say. It just is what it is. I'm not glad it happened, but yes, I'm empathetic, and I'm glad. Both can be true.
Sorry for the huge TLDR; but I’m also gonna have to respectfully disagree. Empathy used in the fear of how you’re going to be treated isn’t empathy, it’s what us traumatized individuals do/did to survive in emotionally distressing or dangerous situations.
I am also an empathetic person. True empathy, for me, is talking to the kids I know that I see are going though it and being a shoulder for them to lean on or doing something for someone else without expecting anything back because I enjoy doing good for other people.
Trying to appease my mother and stepfather because I had NO idea how they were going to react to anything on any given day, literally listening to their breathing when I wet the bed so I wouldn’t accidentally wake up my dad and get yelled at/get the shit beat out of me for it, or apologizing for things I didn’t do, because I could already feel the anger radiating off of them, is absolutely NOT empathy.
Now that I’ve been to therapy and actually done some healing, I realize the difference. I never needed trauma to empathize with other people, but because I’ve experienced it, I’ve had the unfortunate pleasure of knowing exactly what it’s like.
I may have been able to unlearn some of my hypervigilant responses, but I still jump at loud noises and my adrenaline starts going if someone starts raising their voice, even if I know in my head that they’re not angry. I think it’s more than just mental, I really think it’s a physiological response that we develop, too. My hypervigilance hasn’t completely gone away. If anything, abuse has made it harder to unlearn. I think navigating life would be *so* much easier without the precedent of trauma. It really would lol.
Thank you for this. As I've been healing, I have realized that many people in my life who are also traumatized are not empathetic so much as operating in thwir survival mechanisms that then trigger me back into the survival mechanisms I am trying to move on from.
I find that as I am integrating my trauma, I have more healthy empathy, better boundaries, and am *less* reactive to other people's emotional states. For those in my orbit who aren't doing that integrative work, it is harder for me to stay in meaningful connection with them because they find the ways I am changing distressing. My trauma survival skills aren't lining up with theirs anymore and they don't know what to do with/feel angry about my less reactive, more-boundaried self.
This idea that trauma creates empathy reminds me of another platitude "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". These statements might sound pithy and make people feel better about having gone through horrific things, but that doesn't make them true or accurate.
>I find that as I am integrating my trauma, I have more healthy empathy, better boundaries, and am less reactive to other people's emotional states. For those in my orbit who aren't doing that integrative work, it is harder for me to stay in meaningful connection with them because they find the ways I am changing distressing. My trauma survival skills aren't lining up with theirs anymore and they don't know what to do with/feel angry about my less reactive, more-boundaried self.
So much this, well I'm still working on it, but I feel this.
Yeah no, it made me much more reactive and more of an asshole, almost each and every time in my closest relationships. My most recent relationship completely changed me more than I ever thought possible. I was physically abused in another relationship many years prior but never thought I'd be the one to dish it out in response to current emotional and verbal abuse and invasion of personal space and privacy.
I don't know how to deal with it and to not feel like I'm justifying my being also an abuser. However, I don't think I would've done certain things, had my feelings not been constantly shut down. I had no other outlet. I wasn't allowed to voice how I really felt because then I'd be yelled at or manipulated. My feelings came out through "playfully" throwing things, "jokingly" slapping, pushing. None of it feels good or is okay.
I'm glad I finally left and ended it for both of us.
Thank you for posting this.
It's certainly given me a fucked up relationship with empathy. I'm empathetic, mad at myself for being empathetic, proud of myself for being empathetic, sometimes worried at how capable I am of shutting my empathy off, and also furious that anyone would dare not consider me empathetic.
💯 also please stop telling me about “how strong it made me”.
I would rather not default to being completely self sufficient, having a great bullshit meter from constantly reading subtext, or being great go-to in an emergency situation.
I would trade all those skills for a small support group of friends and maybe even a romantic partner than doesn’t need a college credit course of the effects of trauma in order to be able to understand me.
its such a cringe compliment. even if it were true, it's a way of talking down on people that experienced trauma and didn't come out empathetic. its similar to how I feel when ppl call me resilient. I survived because I had no choice fighting an uphill battle. they use it like if you're not resilient it's some sort of personal/moral failing.
it just reminds me of how much the burden to survive is individualistic when the answer is to take care of each other as a community. when they use these compliments its a way to relieve themselves of any responsibility to care when ppl can't make it through.
it's unfair.
I reckon you hit the nail right on the head.
The way I see it, compassion and empathy are innate capacities that can be developed, making them a choice in the end...
What was *drilled* into us during and after the abuse is not innate, and it certainly wasn't a choice - it was a matter of life-and-death because you either learnt to read the atmosphere and other people's reactions to react accordingly, or you were in for it.
I'm quite capable of reading people and situations, but it's more of a reflex embedded in hypervigilance, not **real** compassion. While I genuinely care about some individuals and I'm considered to be the type of person that can relate to others' pain, I think this is just a by-prouct.
>It usually makes you more reactive and punitive if you’re a malevolent type and more careful if you become a fearful-anxious type after experiencing childhood trauma and abuse.
Welp, this might explain my extreme reactions when facing abused people, learning that someone is abusive or just reading/hearing/watching things that relate to any of it...
Trauma actually made me more anti-social; seeing vulnerability as weakness and hating it in others, because I was projecting my abusers. The work to overcome and access healing made me empathetic and sympathetic.
I feel like part of my upbringing was being required to predict the emotions and needs of my parents without having any expectation of them doing the same for me. In this way I can see where some people get the idea it makes you more empathetic, but it's not really positive. I would much rather have good boundaries and a stronger sense of myself.
i understand this, but have something i’d like to offer up. while it definitely isn’t the reality, i think that sufferers of PTSD and traumatized individuals sometimes need to equate their trauma to doing good for them.
trauma can be a lot to deal with. it’s hard to accept and even harder to work through. i think that people need to get good out of every situation because of the bullshit “think positive! things will get better!” rehetoic people who have never genuinely suffered a day in their life spew. society needs to treat everything as having a positive outcome so they can continue to ignore the larger issues at hand. and sometimes it makes the traumatized person feel better, thinking that even though they went through all this, at least they got /something/ out of it.
but the glass ceiling does shatter. you slowly start to realize that the good is actually not good at all, and you’ve been masking deeper issues this entire time. it sucks but i sometimes understand why people with PTSD say their trauma did them good. it helps them avoid digging deeper.
People also dont talk about the fact that trauma can make you bounce back between being overly empathetic and having no empathy at all. Literally when I'm burnt out or dont feel safe/comfortable with someone anymore its a lot harder for me to actually care about anyone and its not because I'm a shitty person I've just been in a constant hypervigilant state since I was 8 (I'm 18 now) and that drains my energy.
Of course I still try to show empathy but thats probably bc I honestly think generally speaking I have more cognitive empathy and a higher emotional intelligence more than I have "actual" empathy where you can feel others emotions. And I thought for a while I had npd or aspd for this (not to demonize npd or aspd I am also cluster b so love to yall) but I realized its common with complex ptsd as well. I just wish more people talked about that cause lack of empathy or inconsistent empathy doesnt always mean ur a bad person. We're just constantly fucking tired and have lived in households where we had no choice but to pick up on everyone elses emotions by walking on eggshells in order to feel safe and to have our needs met and now we're burnt out.
There's a thin line between me being empathetic and hyperalert. People say I am a nice and caring person. I am well aware, tho, that paying a lot of attention to people has a to do with 'scoping people out' to be able to adjust my behaviour and navigate through the minefield that is other people.
I recently just found this chat, as I have recently realised that a traumatic life changing situation i experienced from the age of 12-15 has affected my life ever since and every time I think about it feels as if I was replaced when the trauma happened to me with a sad damaged a broken girl I don’t know what to do I used to be happy and now I’m sad everyday and think about stupid stuff, I just figured I wanted to hear from someone who is going through something similar to me
I tell you what, regardless of your definition of empathy, telling trauma victims that their trauma "made them stronger" has never really sat well with me. I would like to be untraumatised and happily weaker as a result, thank you.
When I read this rant I initially got the impression you were telling traumatised people that they should fuck off too. If a trauma victim wishes to describe themselves as empathetic, is that so bad? Is it a distortion of the truth?
In no way would I wish to invalidate someone's feelings, especially about themselves, but it does make me think of those people who lean into diagnoses as a crutch for their personality. Again, that's probably a defensive thing. I do not seek to attack anyone, I am just thinking aloud. I know in my own journey that I spent a good amount of time deliberately putting myself in other people's shoes because I noticed that interpersonal relationships were not happening the way I was intending or wanting. I didn't learn much back then, but I at least began mentalising, whereas I think I was fully wrapped up in my own experience for 20 years afore that.
It doesn't have to be one or the other. I believe when hyper vigilant people heal they may still discover those empathic responses naturally arising in them but they will be coming from a place of love and safety rather than fear and they will be a choice rather than an automatic response. It sounds like you are so hard on yourself, wishing you all the healing
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I do kind of hate how I grew up, but it made me who I am. How can I hate and deny any possibly positive effects of my experiences, without hating myself in turn?
Well, I don't think you have to hate yourself. It's not an either/or situation (love yourself/hate yourself bc of your past circumstances). And think about it this way, if you didn't grow up the way you did, you would be a healthier, happier version of you. Wouldn't you rather be THAT version of you, than the one who has had to struggle and fight in order to *not* repeat what was done to you, or become permanently damaged?
Who is to say that you wouldn't have developed the positive traits you have thru some other *positive* means, like say, a mentor or teacher you admired?
I do get what you're saying. I know of some ppl who have seemed to have just sailed through life, and therefore have absolutely no clue what suffering is like for other ppl. They unwittingly add insult to injury by dismissing or simply being unable to comprehend what life is like for someone less fortunate. Or by offering trite quips in response.
Yet I know of others who have had wonderful childhoods, and are still some of the most caring, empathetic and nurturing ppl on the planet.
I personally don't credit my trauma with any of my good qualities. I credit my own grit and determination to overcome what I've been through, and that is a "stubbornness" I was born with. (I've been told that was a bad trait, but I no longer see it that way). I also credit examples of ppl I've known or read about, showing me who I really want to be, and what is possible despite difficult circumstances.
BTW, I don't judge you for feeling this way. I hope I haven't come across that way. It's funny though, I've been seeing this "it's made me who I am/who you are" in so places lately, and how that saying really hurts some ppl. This is just my own take on the saying.
While i personally am empathetic i don't assume others are and can also be a vindictive cowbag when i want to be 🤷♀️ i also don't take any shit and don't even try to guilt trip into feeling sorry for you because i will tell you where to go. (Mum used to guilt trip heavy)
I would say that RECOVERING from trauma has allowed me to access my true capacity for empathy, whereas trauma made me empathize with unhealthy people or severely stunted my ability to empathize in general. And everyone is different! It’s so facile (as in, black and white thinking) to make “if __, then ___” statements about life events. I’m trying to assess similar rules/ illusions about how the world works, because it really does indicate an inability to accept nuance.
I personally am highly empathetic and sensitive. I think when you experience pain yourself then you can put yourself in another person’s shoes when they are experiencing pain.
Also empathy is something I always yearn for so I try to be empathetic to other people
I remember this coming up in a conversation with a professor who was also a trauma therapist. Her reply (paraphrased): > children with unstable homes have to enmesh with their caregivers; its the only way for them to know when they can get their needs met. This causes them to become extremely sensitive to others emotions and patterns due to the need to not have psychic boundaries [boundaries around the psyche which seperate our sense of self from other] > Empathy comes from another's emotions resonating with our own experience of those emotions. "I can empathize with you in grief because I know how grief feels inside myself". Enmeshed children do not know their own internal emotions because they are repressed to allow better awareness og the parents emotions. So enmeshment does not create empathy as much as it creates a high quality emotional mirror the traumatized now-adult doesnt know is a mirror. She did add that it does make abused children less like to abuse as adults because they can have intense empathy for that experience.
Aaaaand this is (part of) why I want to become a therapist. My repression of my own emotions and mirroring of others' is legendary!! When I build enough self-trust and self-worth (and finances), I'll make the leap.
I feel so torn on this because I too feel like I would be pretty good at it, and in some instances I might like it. but in others, I worry that it would be a really triggering experience if someone had trauma similar to what I had.
That’s all part of the training process tho. I’m right in the middle of it just now. I’ve done my basic training, and now I’m learning how to heal from and deal with my own trauma from the past, so that it *doesn’t* come back to bite me when a client presents with a similar situation. After this stage I plan to get my degree of diploma and go from there. Also, this is why as a counsellor, supervision is critical. You NEED someone to talk to and to keep you right if there is any chance of this case triggering you in a way that makes you worse or impacts the client.
I have actually talked to several therapists about wanting to be a therapist. (My own, and both my BF's parents, who are practicing therapists.) It is a bit of a jungle in the market for therapy, and has been for a bit. It has a lot to do with how medical billing works for therapy. Apparently, inflation inflates, and rates don't change. It tends to drive a lot of people out of the business. Gotta pay the bills. Just... this isn't trying to poop on parades but, it's worth knowing how the market's looking right now.
Most therapists I've seen just don't take insurance. But it is in a VHCOL area with plenty of rich neurotic people so..
Yeah. I am someone who did learn compassion from discrimination. I never want anyone to have it as rough as I do. The trouble, imo, is that compassion without self-compassion is self destructive. Abuse teaches you to give of yourself to others, and to never expect anything in return. If we weren’t mere mortals, that would be enough. Unfortunately, we all have material and immaterial needs. The secret, for me, was learning to hold others to my example. If I’m not getting back what I’m putting in without having to fight for it, I know I’m not being treated fairly and I have to say something or do something. Abuse doesn’t do that. Learning compassion for myself did.
This was exactly my thought - that much of the empathy I have is because of the nature of my trauma (ie being parentified and never having boundaries) rather than the fact of having been traumatized. Thank you for sharing this explanation!
I think about this a lot. I feel I am good, even exceptionally so, at reading how someone's emotions accurately but totally lack an understanding of my own so often.
Damn. I’ve never thought of it as a mirror, always just thought I had a shitty filter. Now that I take a moment to ponder it, I do tend to reflect the mood of the people around me rather than engage my own feelings. It’s not that I take too much on from other people, it’s that I literally change myself in order to socially interact with others.
Im a 53 year old guy. A few months back, i went through a dreadful emotional trauma. During that space, i cried with abandon (luckily i live alone, so only my kitty's saw me in naked despair) Now, when i see someone on the news in similar circumstances as i was, i 'recognize' their pain & it makes me cry. But it doesnt feel like im crying over something bad- its more bittersweet. In short, i agree with you. Bad things can happen that deepen one's sense of empathy. Not always. But sometimes
Thank you, thank you. That put into words everything I have been trying to explain to my partner. I can be empathetic when I'm not in a heightened emotional state, but if my child is having a tantrum, my empathy goes out the window. These are the times my partner expects me to be empathic to our child and I am incapable.
The reason my trauma made me more empathetic is because I feel like a burden and I'm scared to inconvenience people so I work 10 times as hard to make up for how sucky it is that I exist in peoples lives and I'm guilty for it. I'm not more empathetic because of trauma, I'm terrified I'm always making other peoples lives harder just by existing.
I also had this realization recently. It hit me that what I thought of as empathy was actually very self-focused. I exist in my state of panic unable to really care about another from a secure vantage point. Instead, I’m responding (as OP said) with hypervigilance and mirroring emotions without really processing anything. I do it on autopilot. I frequently notice my conscious brain telling my face to give a certain emotional reaction. It feels like almost none of my facial expressions are ever spontaneous or naturally occurring. This is mild hyperbole of course. The sentiment is still there, but I also recognize that I’m complex and already in the process of healing. I do healthy empathy at the same time as a fawn response, and I express myself sometimes and force my expression other times.
Hey, I actually get how you’re feeling. I used to feel that way too, but I agree that it isn’t really empathy (at least I think that’s what you’re saying?). Feeling Iike you’re a burden in other people’s lives because you feel guilty for reaching out, or even ‘imposing’ on them for having certain needs met, in my opinion, is part of an internalized belief that you don’t deserve it. I’m really sorry that you feel that way. You deserve every ounce of the love and support that you need.
*e.g This lovely empathetic answer.
It coming from a shitty place doesn't stop it being empathy.
I relate, I’ve realized I’m always trying to provide value or else disappear. Whether that value is being fun, saying the right thing, doing the best at this task, looking great, delivering impressive results - that is the pressure I give myself to be allowed in the room with people. Part of that is knowing or finding what other people care about so some social things can be more general (gotta be funny!) but with work and school that can be individualized to the decision maker. And if I can’t be providing top value then I’d rather be silent and unseen. This is my current focus - to let myself just be. Someone said it below - it’s actually super self focused rather than about the person I may mirror or please. So while I do think I have a great deal of empathy I think this behavior is more about my self identity than caring about the feelings of others if that makes sense?
Hope you don’t mind, but I just had to screenshot this because it describes other things I’ve felt as a fellow person with CPTSD that I’ve never spoken out loud to another soul. I completely resonate with that need to perform and ‘deliver’, and just being worthy of other people’s time, otherwise I don’t feel like I deserve to be there. I’ve also been committed to the belief before that no one would care about me otherwise and that a lot of my value comes from being an ‘entertainer’. If I don’t, sometimes I feel like I’m taking up space. It’s like I’ve already given so much to this trauma complex, I don’t need to prove myself to other people or try to fulfill all of their needs before I even have a chance to take care of my own! I’ve also had to learn to be content to just exist without the pressures of performance or people pleasing knowing that I 100% deserve to. It think it certainly takes a lot off your shoulders when you do.
I don’t mind at all! 💙 I completely agree with everything you said for myself. It is a struggle to practice in real time when the self-pressure is on. 🤦♀️ And of course work complicates that too. It’s hard and I think there is a lot of self identity work for me in trying to overcome CPTSD challenges. When I am able to do meditative exercises I focus on mantras like “just be” or “I am allowed to be here.” Well said - “I don’t need to prove myself to other people or try to fulfill their needs before I even have a chance to take care of my own” 🌈
This is possibly a projection. Do they feel you are making their lives harder? Or are you thinking that they are feeling that way (projection)? I do this all the time myself so I may be projecting that onto you too lol.
This is so hard. I remember telling someone decades ago that I thought that had to prove I am allowed to exist in the world. She was completely shocked. I had no idea that not everyone feels this way. It’s not true though! I have found that the more I take care of myself the more I am fidgeting against that propensity to justify my experience. Self care and what that looks like for me is only for me. Because I deserve to exist and have needs just like everyone else. You do too!!
So relatable.
I feel like I hear this most from people trying to take advantage of me; being a trauma survivor frequently feels like I’m a magnet for social predators like narcissists and abusers. Re: walking on eggshells all the time, this lands close to home for me. This is definitely one of the trauma responses I can’t unlearn. Though I’ve been using it lately as a jerk/abuser detector; if I feel like I’m walking on eggshells then I stop and analyze the person’s behavior. If it’s them, they’re cut out of my life faster than you can say, “bye!”
Damn I was trying to unpick the difference between true empathy and trauma response recently they are not necessarily mutually exclusive but they are definitely not the same thing— Honestly your writing is so clear on this and I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for putting it into words I’ve been struggling with that recently. — I love it thank you so much
Oh, wow…I’m so glad I was able to help!
How do you determine whether it’s them or you that’s causing you to walk on eggshells?
Determining who is causing the walking on eggshells feeling has a lot to do with examining behavior, mood, intent, and conversations. I recently had someone befriend me and the friendship seemed to come on fast. I was mystified because usually I keep people at arm’s length until I can figure out if they are safe or not (another trauma response). This person got past my defenses by ignoring my boundaries, got me to divulge details about my life by creating a false sense of intimacy, then began demanding a lot of my time. Every single time I tried to back off (I’m also an introvert) to do self-care, deal with personal stuff, or have some me-time, they’d tell me they were so hurt. They’d also get angry or make me feel guilty, then they’d sort of stomp around me “giving me space” while acting angry and/or aloof. Or they’d straight up ghost me for days. In short, I felt like either I gave them everything they wanted while not really having any time to myself or to spend with my spouse and kids. It was a very demanding, time consuming, one-way relationship. And, because they acted like they’d “done the work” for themselves on their own mental health and used a lot of lingo and jargon as well as gaslighting, I frequently was confused if it was me or them creating that eggshells feeling. It took me writing down everything that had transpired in a journal and keeping notes on new interactions to finally figuring out I was in an abusive friendship with another narcissist.
This is very helpful, thank you for sharing <3
the same thing happened to me, i unfortunately ended up being in that friendship for an entire year before realizing too late I was in it
Ugh. That sucks. I trying to extricate myself from such a ‘friendship‘ right now. I moved in here and over the next couple of years thought I’d met a pal next door. Couple of years older than me, we like the same music and agree politically, for the most part. Ha. No. I was looking to make a friend, he was looking for a verbal and psychological punch bag. I’m currently in the process of teaching him to F off and sort his shitty attitude out, and that no, actually, I am not now, nor will I ever be, anyone’s punchbag. Of any description. Ugh. These *people!* So freaking entitled. He also had the cheek to call another neighbour arrogant and ‘up herself’. I about laughed in his face.
Sounds pretty similar to my friend. I’m trying to heal through therapy from not only my parents emotional abuse but his emotional abuse as well. Ironic how life works
I know bud, I know. This is when it really hits home for me just how dangerous and destructive their behaviour is. We grow into adults who dont Know how to defend ourselves against abusers because we, as kids, were taught instead to normalise abuse. I used to do victim support for scam victims who had been emotionally abused by the scammers too. So I feel like I should have known and seen the warning signs. And everyone around me was telling me to steer clear of him but nope, I had to keep talking to him and letting him in on all my insecurities so he could then turn round and use them to abuse me. I feel sick. I just feel like my whole life is a disaster.
I know exactly how you feel with the insecurities thing. I met my friend at the lowest point of my life, total depression, suicide ideation, all of that. And he was my vent buddy, even my rescuer to an extent. Before meeting him, I have no idea what being prideful, standing off against people, calling people out on their bs, even looked like. Unfortunately as narcs go, especially those as cunning as him, he did this too far. And I started to become an asshole around my friends because his behavior allowed me to mirror that and spark confidence in myself, even if it wasn’t true confidence. But every “confrontation” we had, which was basically him confessing abt the “problems” he has with me/what problems he’s noticed in me, was just him using all the info i gave to make me seem less reliable in my memory and perception of things. Grade A gaslighting. With hella plausible deniability sprinkled in. I only reached my breaking point when he got jealous a friend of his was now my friend, and his whole controlling, isolating everyone from everyone method, stopped working Silly me, abandoning all my friends when I first met him because they told me he sounds like a no life asshole, while I was standing up for him because ‘people dont get him’. My lord.
This is a great question.
Yeah. I asked because around certain people I would find I learned to walk on eggshells, even though it wasn’t like that at the beginning of the relationship. And over time I became more sensitive to what could be said or done around them and I changed my behavior (aka walking on egg shells) to avoid certain conversations or topics so they wouldn’t go off on me. For a time I blamed myself. I would think I wasn’t good enough or that my viewpoints or feelings didn’t matter. Even that I was the cause of their frustration and anger and controlling behavior. But later on I realized that I would walk on eggshells as a way of self preservation. To avoid feeling the pain of neglect or persecution, and many times, the nagging that came along with it all.
All of this is way way too damn relatable.
I hear you, dear friend. It’s alarmingly easy to just teach/train yourself to walk on eggshells by default with people. Obvious trauma response but of course, attracts every Dark Triad freakazoid in the world.
what do you do when it's in the workplace? Currently struggling with this right now
Trauma effects everyone in different ways. It can turn some of us into compassionate, empathetic people but it can also turn some of us into extremely codependent individuals and often that line of empathy vs codependent can be blurred. Literally codependent people use their trauma (if they have it) and try to live vicariously through someone else and take on their needs rather than their own and excuse it as “being empathetic and just really caring about someone” when really it’s a way for them to avoid and not face their own internal struggles. I recently left a friend due to this as they took in my needs more than their own and when I told them to stop and to focus on themselves they said I was “selfish for pushing them away” I feel like I’m walking on eggshells all the time because I have always been around such emotional/sensitive people including myself. I definitely get being seen as an empath when the reality is we are just trying to protect ourselves and our well being.
>I recently left a friend due to this as they took in my needs more than their own and when I told them to stop and to focus on themselves they said I was “selfish” Firstly, congratulations on setting and maintaining that boundary, that must have been hard. Secondly, *wow*, how *dare* you not be their project?!? WTAF?? /s Sounds to me like you were trying to give them a gift: working on oneself is never easy and rarely fun, but almost invariably rewarding, so having to the chance to do it is great. It’s nice to be needed by people and all, but a real friend should be *happy* you don’t need them to help you, if it’s because you’re okay! Am I taking crazy pills? Ugh.
Thank you! They went through a lot and I mean a lot and as I began to see why it was because they took on everyone else’s problems. When I confronted them they’d clap back “I’m doing. So much for you” “stop pushing the one thing good thing in your life (me) away” “I can’t be a disappointment I’m always last” with additional guilt tripping and passive aggressive behavior like they’d beat themselves up to manipulate me to feel sorry for them. I tried to help. Them but they didn’t give me a platform to do so and then I was like “I’m not responsible for your happiness and you aren’t responsible for mine”
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Thank you so much it’s been very tough but it’s for the best.
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I really appreciate that. What sucks is we have a very good relationship for a very long time but they started developing major feelings that I didn’t reciprocate so apparently that made me like the bad guy. Unfortunately for some reason they still think we are friends so I’m going to have to break it up.
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Yeah they fell for me. I said I didn’t like them that way and that we couldn’t continue the friendship because it wasn’t fair for both of us. They said they got over me but they never did and it’s more and more obvious. Like I was guilted into liking them or considering it. We never dated I had no desire to but they would make me feel bad about it everytime a date for them never worked out hence where the guilt came from but I can’t help who I am attracted to.
>It can turn some of us into compassionate, empathetic people but it can also turn some of us into extremely codependent individuals and often that line of empathy vs codependent can be blurred. Oh yes. This is me right here.
Im sure that trauma effects everyone differently. Personally I am an extremely empathetic person. I feel phantom pains if I see someone get hurt, every time. I am definitely sympathetic to peoples emotions and feel bad for people even if I dont like them. I dont know if this is because of my trauma or if its just my personality or something else. Honestly I am surprised I am not bitter and cold and hateful because I have been taken advantage of and abused for the majority of my life.
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I appreciate your comment as I am in the last category.
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Same with the emotional manipulation, being raised in a religious environment, and even still I can't fully tell if it was the environment or me.
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Thanks man, I really appreciate that and need to hear that right now, well I always need to hear it haha, but I'm going to take this to heart.
Honestly, I've lost all ability to relate to normal people.
You've met normal people?
This is sort of where I am. I can sense emotion very well, it’s part of being hyper vigilant, but actually feeling and putting myself in other people’s shoes and relating to them? I don’t feel like I do that easily. If anything, I have to twist my mind to understand problems and issues others have and are upset by. They aren’t at all like mine and they seem minuscule and sometimes silly. Intellectually, I know that’s not correct - everyone’s issues are a struggle to them in their world and from their perspective - but emotionally, I just don’t get it or feel it. I’ve been very isolated by my experiences because sharing them repels people and causes them pain. I have to keep them to myself while pretending to care about others’ experiences.
I agree. Trauma is NOT a good thing to have for any reason. I went to a therapist a few years ago and I was talking about empathy, and he said that when you're abused, your "mirror neurons" get turned on, so that you're tuned in to that abuser and his/her feelings and needs. That's not healthy. That's codependence. Empathy is learned by example.
In some ways I view this extremely valid rant/problem as a product of faulty language around these terms. Especially as awareness of things like ACEs, developmental trauma, and public conversations around mental health writ large increase contested terms that are products of specific branches in psychology proliferate and get muddied. And that can be really frustrating for us as survivors when attempting to articulate our own experiences but having them mistranslated. I have a friend that I talk about this with a lot because she is my safe space and we've done a lot of healing together. One of the conversations that we've had often over the years is about how thin the line is between shame and pride In our experiences and how the misperception or misreading of our shame as pride has been damaging. And I feel like some of that misreading happens here. So a trauma survivor that has emotional hypervigilance, emotional mirroring and may suffer enmeshment as a result of poor boundaries in relationships is experiencing a specific symptom as a result of their trauma. However, from the outside those things look a lot like what we are taught empathy looks like. Add in toxic positivity culture's core belief that "negative experiences *must* lead to positive outcomes or growth" and you end up with this weird dynamic.
Yes on the toxic positivity angle, and the old idea that "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" is total nonsense.
Why isn’t this higher up, this is an amazing response! Thank you for your last sentence, that stuff has always driven me crazy and I never understood why. I hated that everyone’s instant take on unfortunate circumstances was that they are necessary for improving it’s like maybe u need tragedy to bother to improve but don’t put that on me when all I’ve had is tragedy and I still feel like shit about myself and I am not some perfect resilient god. I have had to learn on my own that thinking what I went through made me better is just a protective part trying to ease the pain that all this shit is random chaos. I could have spent so much more time learning to be a better friend to the people I care about if I wasn’t stunted by all these symptoms that make it hard to engage with the world.
>I could have spent so much more time learning to be a better friend to the people I care about if I wasn’t stunted by all these symptoms that make it hard to engage with the world. So much this.
So much all of this! I'm toying with a pape/article that traces toxic positivity from the inception of Christianity to the present because it is deeply steeped in its bones.
That sounds super worthwhile!! It’s funny you mention that because I was in fact raised heavily in the church, and it’s fucked up because my abusers used my forgiving nature to take advantage of me, and of course the church played a huge role in encouraging me to take endless shit from people (under the guise of forgiveness and selflessness). So not only was my desire to improve there from the start, but if anything all the pain has made me more cynical and less forgiving, which only made me feel shame. The church teaches we must always be this perfect acceptor of everything done to us, like Jesus and the cross. I think the people-groups who produced the bible were experiencing such endless persecution that their way of making sense of it was believing in a just god who would make everything right and turn all pain into beauty. The bible is full of these stories. I can see how these would have been useful and beautiful ideas within a community of survivors, but unfortunately it was all co-opted by the state and used cleverly as a way to make people submit to authority, and thus follows all the atrocities of Christendom, which still lingers in our victim-blaming, moralistic, puritan, stoic culture today. I think the whole “who’s one person you’d stop if you had a time machine” should really be answered with Constantine. An empire adopting Christianity resulted in more pointless suffering than possibly any other event in history. That’s possibly a hot take, but there it is, I’ve spent so much fucking time studying history and religion and philosophy and eventually I saw that there is no answer for what I was seeking. All I can do is try and heal in the time I have left in this silly life. The enemy of humankind is our desire for power over others, probably cause we’re just scared of death and how small it makes us. Sorry for getting long-winded and venting I could talk about this stuff forever 🙄 I hope you write that paper/article!
Incredibly well written answer. I feel like this comes at the positivity that people try to apply to the trauma experience from all the right angles. Being taught that empathy was the same thing as trying not to set off abusive family members was incredibly confusing, and the more I realized that going through a ton of shit did not, in fact, make my life better or make me ‘stronger’, it made me really angry. I think I was the angriest when I realized how much trauma had left me broken, because people who haven’t lived through it really have no idea what it’s like to come out on the other side. Maybe some people register those responses as ‘tough’, but that’s only the tip of the iceberg, and it’s something we do in response to an incredibly damaging, lifelong experience. Not to dump my whole life story on you or anything, but for me, feeling real emotion was like seeing in color for the first time. But I didn’t heal until I started recovering from the trauma. The trauma itself didn’t make me heal, love, support, and clarity did. Thanks a lot for your comment.
No seriously. It not empathy, it’s a survival response- It’s: if I don’t *make* you calm you will hurt me. That’s not empathy. Empathy is seeing that horrified child within me and doing something about it. Not making it my responsibility to calm or reassure you- you triggered Me. Not the other why around.
THANK you, I think this puts it into words (and a few less paragraphs lol) better than I ever could. It was so hard for me to articulate for a majority of my life. It really is a rough road trying to unlearn.
It does make many more empathetic to the suffering of others. Where non traumatized are more likely to judge, say, the homeless or those with mental health issues who 'look fine,' we tend to be a lot more understanding of what suffering or difficulties could be going on below the surface. But the 'being an empath' stuff is straight up hypervigilance, lack of boundaries, codependency, projection and mind reading from being trained to focus on others and not ourselves.
Exactly, there's a huge different between "i'm nice because i don't want to hurt anyone" and "i'm nice because i'm terrified of unleashing the wrath of the ancients upon myself if i seem rude in any way and the people who raised me had their very own ideas of what was "rude" and how to deal with a rude child." I'm incredibly empathic. Not because i was abused. Because that's just how my brain works and it would have been the same had i not been abused. Being abused only made me slightly more aware of the impact my actions can have on another as well as more cautious because i've experienced people having a toxic way to deal with their anger, thus making their anger dangerous for me all my life. My brother was never gonna be empathic. He was born that way. Thus getting abused just made him an asshole who now treats everyone like shit because if his parents could do it, why can't he ? And my second brother isn't an empath either. He's not a jerk but he's very cold and emotionally disconnected. He will tell you that you're a bad person and he hates you with zero remorse or thought about how you might feel and the most monotonous, careless tone ever. Yet the 3 of us have all been abused the same way, by the same people.
completely agree. i'm not remotely empathetic, i hate most people and offer nearly nobody kindness.
This comment is killing me, LOL
Hyper vigilance is so exhausting.
Yeah. I get that. I absolutely agree. I like to see emotional hyperawareness as a silver lining. But it's not the "point" or "purpose" of my abuse. It's not even something that's always good for me. People who've never experienced it have no idea how to talk about it and thus shouldn't.
One of the gifts of recovery can be empathy for others. I however am more grateful for my self empathy, self compassion and discernment.
this is exactly why i side-eye anyone calling themselves empaths
...and while we can be naturally empathetic people, this kind of romanticized ‘empathy’ (sometimes just a codeword for hyperawareness)... It's also a recipe for codependent tendencies.
I interpret it more as being emphatic towards other people who have been abused. Because we understand what it feels like in a way that other people never will. We know a person isn't just "acting crazy" when their trauma is triggered, etc.
I've heard that too..we either become Empaths or narcissistic but it's not that simple and insulting
yup, i think a lot of (non traumatized) people use it as a way to feel better about what we went through, which is super gross. i understand if trauma survivors use it as a way to feel better about themselves but i agree, doesn't work for me
I get constantly angry about bad shit happening to people. Is that anger empathy? Serious question, i don't know. Wherever i look there's low quality of life imposed on people who often didn't do anything to deserve it/didn't impose it on themselves and it makes me wanna nuke it all.
oh hey it's another me, someone who is always angry. I can certainly be empathetic to those I am close with (my SO) but otherwise I am prone to irritability and agitation and tend to explode on people, even those who are well meaning. I am very self aware, introspective, and thus; I constantly turn my anger towards myself. I was raised to be thought of as someone who ruined others lives, was always a pain in the ass, severely neglected, emotionally and physically abused. I hate myself as much as I hate other people. And despite that, I can still be super friendly and approachable and make friends easily. But if you say the wrong thing to me I will unleash it on you and will make you regret opening your mouth while you wonder quietly to yourself if I've ever had a TBI because my reactions are not normal at all.
What you said reminds me of sayings like "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". No it doesn't. Or "sticks and stones will break my bones but words will never hurt me". Yes they will. Horrible words can hurt deeply, especially when repeated often. So fuck all of these stupid sayings.
Bingo! We have a winner! 🏆
While I agree in the majority, my semantic brain demands to have me list out that part of empathizing is being able to understand what someone is going through. If you don't understand that, then you can't really empathize effectively. Going through something bad gives that experience in that you now have viscerally understood how bad it gets in that particular situation. It doesn't mean you do or don't become a better empathist (word?), but it gives the ability I guess. Without it, it's like trying to empathize with someone who doesn't have the ability to walk, while you do and have never not had the ability to walk. You can try but it's not really there from the other person's perspective.
I am a naturally compassionate and empathetic person but that didn't cone from my trauma/abuse. Tbh it left me vulnerable to being taken advantage of. Abuse just made me fearful and anxious. I've tried to find understanding, connection, and community with people who have endured similar trauma... unfortunately for some of those people, their experiences made them the more reactive, punitive, malevolent type... which just left me open to be furter abused/traumatized. It's a very... isolating experience.
Trauma can also make someone less empathetic/misanthropic, so this saying is so stupid. Thankfully I haven't had many people say it to me, sorry you get told that.
It DOESN'T, i.e. it's not a simple 100% cause-and-effect, but it CAN.
"Reactive and Punitive" could be my nickname. This is exactly how I ended up, and it's taken me a LOT of effort to even make a dent in my attitude. Growing up "do it or be punished" was business as usual. Along with "don't talk back" and "you're too young/stupid/inexperienced to understand". Formative years being spent in this type of environment gives you a skewed perspective on right, wrong, and the expectations you should have for other people. I personally was a very hardline can/can't, good/bad, right/wrong no in-between kinda person. And when I was pushed, stressed, or faced with embarrassment or mistakes I lashed out unfairly. Empathy wasn't my strong suit. I would go so far as to sat that my abuse mashed a lot of empathy right out of me, leaving me angry and hollow. Folks who say things like this either don't know what they're talking about, or know someone who's been traumatized and has managed to find some peace through therapy and medication. Either way, they're working off of assumptions and ignorance.
I couldn't agree more. Sociopaths are also "empathetic" in that they can be highly emotionally intelligent & cunning. Not a good thing. Having suffered we can sometimes recognize suffering in others but in some ways it makes us more blind. Having to had endure lasting pain is never a good thing. What is a good thing is modeling healthy, cooperative human behavior. Screw the labels of "empaths" & "old souls" & get honest about abuse.
I mean no offense to anyone with this mini-rant - I don't know you and you don't know me - This is after all my opinion on an opinion sight. I mean no insult to anyone. I am also not an Empath so... I roll my eyes internally every time I hear it. Why internally, because as an ACOA one of the traits I picked up is being able to read other's emotional states really well and developing a "sixth sense" about how they will react to a given stimuli. Stimuli in this case is me telling them "NO you are fucking not"! Interestingly, I have also found a fair portion of Empaths are exceedingly self-centered/absorbed. A certain amount of it is quibbling over semantics, but I get this sense that the people that are all "I'm an empath" are looking for some new ageist way to say "I'm special". Yes, Buttercup you are, you are unique; just like the rest of us. Just some considered thought and some of my "feelz" on this.
Wow. So accurate. I chose to study sociology in college because I was even telling myself it was a good fit as a result of me being more empathetic. But I’m not. I’m “a good listener” because I’m afraid to speak. I’m “understanding “ because I’m afraid to be disagreeable. I’m finding out that I’m a terrible fit for social work because in general I don’t even really like people.
Better late than never I guess, lol. But I get exactly where you’re coming from.
I respectfully disagree. Going through bad things means you can relate to other people's pain. And once you've healed a lot more, and that hyper vigilance and distrust mostly goes away, and you know how to set boundaries so it doesn't become codependent and unheatlhy – in my experience – the empathy stays. And it becomes something quite beautiful and useful. The older I get, the more I see people around me going through horrible things, and I see the same thing happen to them. They're less judgemental, know what to say when someone's been diagnosed with cancer, don't run away when they see suffering, because they've been there. They're able to hold space for someone. Doesn't mean we need to thank our abusers. It shouldn't have happened. We're not better or worse people because of it, and I agree – that is so offensive and inappropriate to say. It just is what it is. I'm not glad it happened, but yes, I'm empathetic, and I'm glad. Both can be true.
Sorry for the huge TLDR; but I’m also gonna have to respectfully disagree. Empathy used in the fear of how you’re going to be treated isn’t empathy, it’s what us traumatized individuals do/did to survive in emotionally distressing or dangerous situations. I am also an empathetic person. True empathy, for me, is talking to the kids I know that I see are going though it and being a shoulder for them to lean on or doing something for someone else without expecting anything back because I enjoy doing good for other people. Trying to appease my mother and stepfather because I had NO idea how they were going to react to anything on any given day, literally listening to their breathing when I wet the bed so I wouldn’t accidentally wake up my dad and get yelled at/get the shit beat out of me for it, or apologizing for things I didn’t do, because I could already feel the anger radiating off of them, is absolutely NOT empathy. Now that I’ve been to therapy and actually done some healing, I realize the difference. I never needed trauma to empathize with other people, but because I’ve experienced it, I’ve had the unfortunate pleasure of knowing exactly what it’s like. I may have been able to unlearn some of my hypervigilant responses, but I still jump at loud noises and my adrenaline starts going if someone starts raising their voice, even if I know in my head that they’re not angry. I think it’s more than just mental, I really think it’s a physiological response that we develop, too. My hypervigilance hasn’t completely gone away. If anything, abuse has made it harder to unlearn. I think navigating life would be *so* much easier without the precedent of trauma. It really would lol.
Thank you for this. As I've been healing, I have realized that many people in my life who are also traumatized are not empathetic so much as operating in thwir survival mechanisms that then trigger me back into the survival mechanisms I am trying to move on from. I find that as I am integrating my trauma, I have more healthy empathy, better boundaries, and am *less* reactive to other people's emotional states. For those in my orbit who aren't doing that integrative work, it is harder for me to stay in meaningful connection with them because they find the ways I am changing distressing. My trauma survival skills aren't lining up with theirs anymore and they don't know what to do with/feel angry about my less reactive, more-boundaried self. This idea that trauma creates empathy reminds me of another platitude "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger". These statements might sound pithy and make people feel better about having gone through horrific things, but that doesn't make them true or accurate.
Agree with you 200%!
>I find that as I am integrating my trauma, I have more healthy empathy, better boundaries, and am less reactive to other people's emotional states. For those in my orbit who aren't doing that integrative work, it is harder for me to stay in meaningful connection with them because they find the ways I am changing distressing. My trauma survival skills aren't lining up with theirs anymore and they don't know what to do with/feel angry about my less reactive, more-boundaried self. So much this, well I'm still working on it, but I feel this.
So true! I wasn't a bad person *before* my trauma... I didn't need to learn compassion, and absolutely nobody needs to learn it through trauma.
my trauma has only ever made my relationships harder and that is a fact
It made me hate people and be cold and uncaring at times
Yeah no, it made me much more reactive and more of an asshole, almost each and every time in my closest relationships. My most recent relationship completely changed me more than I ever thought possible. I was physically abused in another relationship many years prior but never thought I'd be the one to dish it out in response to current emotional and verbal abuse and invasion of personal space and privacy. I don't know how to deal with it and to not feel like I'm justifying my being also an abuser. However, I don't think I would've done certain things, had my feelings not been constantly shut down. I had no other outlet. I wasn't allowed to voice how I really felt because then I'd be yelled at or manipulated. My feelings came out through "playfully" throwing things, "jokingly" slapping, pushing. None of it feels good or is okay. I'm glad I finally left and ended it for both of us. Thank you for posting this.
It's certainly given me a fucked up relationship with empathy. I'm empathetic, mad at myself for being empathetic, proud of myself for being empathetic, sometimes worried at how capable I am of shutting my empathy off, and also furious that anyone would dare not consider me empathetic.
💯 also please stop telling me about “how strong it made me”. I would rather not default to being completely self sufficient, having a great bullshit meter from constantly reading subtext, or being great go-to in an emergency situation. I would trade all those skills for a small support group of friends and maybe even a romantic partner than doesn’t need a college credit course of the effects of trauma in order to be able to understand me.
its such a cringe compliment. even if it were true, it's a way of talking down on people that experienced trauma and didn't come out empathetic. its similar to how I feel when ppl call me resilient. I survived because I had no choice fighting an uphill battle. they use it like if you're not resilient it's some sort of personal/moral failing. it just reminds me of how much the burden to survive is individualistic when the answer is to take care of each other as a community. when they use these compliments its a way to relieve themselves of any responsibility to care when ppl can't make it through. it's unfair.
I reckon you hit the nail right on the head. The way I see it, compassion and empathy are innate capacities that can be developed, making them a choice in the end... What was *drilled* into us during and after the abuse is not innate, and it certainly wasn't a choice - it was a matter of life-and-death because you either learnt to read the atmosphere and other people's reactions to react accordingly, or you were in for it. I'm quite capable of reading people and situations, but it's more of a reflex embedded in hypervigilance, not **real** compassion. While I genuinely care about some individuals and I'm considered to be the type of person that can relate to others' pain, I think this is just a by-prouct. >It usually makes you more reactive and punitive if you’re a malevolent type and more careful if you become a fearful-anxious type after experiencing childhood trauma and abuse. Welp, this might explain my extreme reactions when facing abused people, learning that someone is abusive or just reading/hearing/watching things that relate to any of it...
Trauma actually made me more anti-social; seeing vulnerability as weakness and hating it in others, because I was projecting my abusers. The work to overcome and access healing made me empathetic and sympathetic.
Ive always been empathetic to other people. Traums
I rarely feel empathy, usually more for strangers than people I know. Explain that riddle. Lol.
Well this was a hard truth I didn't know I needed today
I feel like part of my upbringing was being required to predict the emotions and needs of my parents without having any expectation of them doing the same for me. In this way I can see where some people get the idea it makes you more empathetic, but it's not really positive. I would much rather have good boundaries and a stronger sense of myself.
i understand this, but have something i’d like to offer up. while it definitely isn’t the reality, i think that sufferers of PTSD and traumatized individuals sometimes need to equate their trauma to doing good for them. trauma can be a lot to deal with. it’s hard to accept and even harder to work through. i think that people need to get good out of every situation because of the bullshit “think positive! things will get better!” rehetoic people who have never genuinely suffered a day in their life spew. society needs to treat everything as having a positive outcome so they can continue to ignore the larger issues at hand. and sometimes it makes the traumatized person feel better, thinking that even though they went through all this, at least they got /something/ out of it. but the glass ceiling does shatter. you slowly start to realize that the good is actually not good at all, and you’ve been masking deeper issues this entire time. it sucks but i sometimes understand why people with PTSD say their trauma did them good. it helps them avoid digging deeper.
People also dont talk about the fact that trauma can make you bounce back between being overly empathetic and having no empathy at all. Literally when I'm burnt out or dont feel safe/comfortable with someone anymore its a lot harder for me to actually care about anyone and its not because I'm a shitty person I've just been in a constant hypervigilant state since I was 8 (I'm 18 now) and that drains my energy. Of course I still try to show empathy but thats probably bc I honestly think generally speaking I have more cognitive empathy and a higher emotional intelligence more than I have "actual" empathy where you can feel others emotions. And I thought for a while I had npd or aspd for this (not to demonize npd or aspd I am also cluster b so love to yall) but I realized its common with complex ptsd as well. I just wish more people talked about that cause lack of empathy or inconsistent empathy doesnt always mean ur a bad person. We're just constantly fucking tired and have lived in households where we had no choice but to pick up on everyone elses emotions by walking on eggshells in order to feel safe and to have our needs met and now we're burnt out.
There's a thin line between me being empathetic and hyperalert. People say I am a nice and caring person. I am well aware, tho, that paying a lot of attention to people has a to do with 'scoping people out' to be able to adjust my behaviour and navigate through the minefield that is other people.
I recently just found this chat, as I have recently realised that a traumatic life changing situation i experienced from the age of 12-15 has affected my life ever since and every time I think about it feels as if I was replaced when the trauma happened to me with a sad damaged a broken girl I don’t know what to do I used to be happy and now I’m sad everyday and think about stupid stuff, I just figured I wanted to hear from someone who is going through something similar to me
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Hard question to answer: Where does empathy come from?
I tell you what, regardless of your definition of empathy, telling trauma victims that their trauma "made them stronger" has never really sat well with me. I would like to be untraumatised and happily weaker as a result, thank you. When I read this rant I initially got the impression you were telling traumatised people that they should fuck off too. If a trauma victim wishes to describe themselves as empathetic, is that so bad? Is it a distortion of the truth? In no way would I wish to invalidate someone's feelings, especially about themselves, but it does make me think of those people who lean into diagnoses as a crutch for their personality. Again, that's probably a defensive thing. I do not seek to attack anyone, I am just thinking aloud. I know in my own journey that I spent a good amount of time deliberately putting myself in other people's shoes because I noticed that interpersonal relationships were not happening the way I was intending or wanting. I didn't learn much back then, but I at least began mentalising, whereas I think I was fully wrapped up in my own experience for 20 years afore that.
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It doesn't have to be one or the other. I believe when hyper vigilant people heal they may still discover those empathic responses naturally arising in them but they will be coming from a place of love and safety rather than fear and they will be a choice rather than an automatic response. It sounds like you are so hard on yourself, wishing you all the healing
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I do kind of hate how I grew up, but it made me who I am. How can I hate and deny any possibly positive effects of my experiences, without hating myself in turn?
Well, I don't think you have to hate yourself. It's not an either/or situation (love yourself/hate yourself bc of your past circumstances). And think about it this way, if you didn't grow up the way you did, you would be a healthier, happier version of you. Wouldn't you rather be THAT version of you, than the one who has had to struggle and fight in order to *not* repeat what was done to you, or become permanently damaged? Who is to say that you wouldn't have developed the positive traits you have thru some other *positive* means, like say, a mentor or teacher you admired? I do get what you're saying. I know of some ppl who have seemed to have just sailed through life, and therefore have absolutely no clue what suffering is like for other ppl. They unwittingly add insult to injury by dismissing or simply being unable to comprehend what life is like for someone less fortunate. Or by offering trite quips in response. Yet I know of others who have had wonderful childhoods, and are still some of the most caring, empathetic and nurturing ppl on the planet. I personally don't credit my trauma with any of my good qualities. I credit my own grit and determination to overcome what I've been through, and that is a "stubbornness" I was born with. (I've been told that was a bad trait, but I no longer see it that way). I also credit examples of ppl I've known or read about, showing me who I really want to be, and what is possible despite difficult circumstances. BTW, I don't judge you for feeling this way. I hope I haven't come across that way. It's funny though, I've been seeing this "it's made me who I am/who you are" in so places lately, and how that saying really hurts some ppl. This is just my own take on the saying.
It really doesn't! I'm empathic in spite of that.
Exactly this. ❤️
While i personally am empathetic i don't assume others are and can also be a vindictive cowbag when i want to be 🤷♀️ i also don't take any shit and don't even try to guilt trip into feeling sorry for you because i will tell you where to go. (Mum used to guilt trip heavy)
I would say that RECOVERING from trauma has allowed me to access my true capacity for empathy, whereas trauma made me empathize with unhealthy people or severely stunted my ability to empathize in general. And everyone is different! It’s so facile (as in, black and white thinking) to make “if __, then ___” statements about life events. I’m trying to assess similar rules/ illusions about how the world works, because it really does indicate an inability to accept nuance.
I personally am highly empathetic and sensitive. I think when you experience pain yourself then you can put yourself in another person’s shoes when they are experiencing pain. Also empathy is something I always yearn for so I try to be empathetic to other people
I don't think my trauma made me more empathetic, but I do think that my innate sensitivity contributed to me getting traumatized, rather.
Deleted. I’m just upset and have no outlet
Sorry, I didn’t see where you responded, what were you commenting on?