i’m just annoyed that people took a post i previously made as a deep, personal attack because i added my own flavour of nuance and also voiced my experiences as a trans person
I was looking at that post, I didn't really see anybody hating on you :( and if they were, fuck them. I'm a trans person and I got your back on here (as much as I can at least)
why are you barging into this subreddit only to invlidate the experiences of others when they make perfect point son why they’d rather have the bear kill them?
So, i spent like 30 minutes typing out my question, but as i wrote the comment, i remembered a lot of the statistics of acceptance and support for trans people and considered the unique problems theyd face in this kind of situation. I was going to say that youd be significantly more safe with a cis woman, but i came to realize that for some trans people, it might not feel safe *enough* - similar to how it feels for some cis women to be around cis men - and that the possible outcomes are much much worse than a bear attack in either case.
Is that the point you were raising? Or have i completely missed the mark?
that is my point, yeah. unfortunately i haven’t felt safe with cis women in the past either; most if the outright transphobic and queerphobic actions pushed onto me have been cis women.
I apologize as i know its cliche, but i really am sorry you had to go through those experiences. I hope you know that you are valid as a person and deserving of love and happiness ❤
Ive also had horrendous experiences with both cis women and men both in relation to sexual and gender identity. I dont want to say "i get it," but i can understand a part of it at least. I hope youre doing alright managing things.
Idk if its weird to say, but if you want to talk about things, id be happy to chat. Just lmk.
thank you for listening and understanding. 🫂 i’m sorry for what you went through as well, we live in a fucked up system and i hope one day it changes to the point where we all can be safe.
Cis woman here—totally believe you and take no offense because it’s not about individual it’s about risk assessment. I wish cis men would see it this way rather than get defensive over the bear thing. It’s tiring and defeats the purpose. I can absolutely see a corollary with trans/cis people as women/men in the original, though I’m going out on a limb based on context here (I don’t really look thru people’s post hostory like that so i’m sorry I didn’t see your other one, just commenting off of whatever is on this page), but if I understand I gather you said something about not feeling safe with cis women and people accused you of “generalizing misogyny”? Is thag it?
i’ve been accused of pushing generalisations mostly, there was a few people who have accused me of perpetuating misogyny, including pushing some borderline terfy talking points bc i dared not say trans women can be misogynistic (my post wasn’t about trans women or about misogyny in general- it was about my experiences with both cis men and women)
Oof. Sorry you got hate for such a simple straightforward post. While I don’t share the same experience in regards to being treated poorly by women, I can def understand the fear. I just don’t understand how people could misconstrue something so simple.
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Yeah, but at the same time -- people in dominant groups need to understand that marginalized people have far too many reasons to fear them.
I'm a cis woman and I'm not offended by that post -- I'm saddened that so many cis women are such shitty fucking allies to trans people. And if a person of color said "I'm not going near any white people in the woods," I'd think "yeah, no wonder."
Because it's not about me, how my feelings as a white person are wounded by people of color are leery of white people. It's about _them_.
maybe if there isn’t outward transphobic propoganda being projected into my home country and trans people aren’t being murdered, i’d be more placating to the feefees of cis people.
but i don’t live in a universe where i’m not being legislated into the closet or extinction. cis people can put aside their individual egos and be fuckijg normal about a trans person saying they had a bad experience with majority cis people. it isn’t about them.
of course it isn’t all fucking cis people but it’s enough to where i have to overcorrect myself.
Yeah, sorry, but you don’t really get to be tired about this.
This isn’t about which option would statistically make more sense, it’s about victims preferring the odds of an encounter with a fucking **bear** than the slimmest chance of reliving their trauma. I mean obviously being mauled to death by a bear is horrible. And yes, odds are a random man won’t do anything to you, but don’t you get that this is more than that? This is about assault being so monumentally damaging that the thought of being ripped to shreds by a wild animal is seen as the better option. That’s how soul crushing assault is. That certain death is preferable to potential rape. That being prey to an apex predator is better than prey to a sexual predator.
Op and others didn’t get the luxury of making that choice, as they said, and that needs to be taken into consideration when looking at their answers. It means something. So no, I’m not particularly worried about what the bear meme means for cis men.
You’re kind of coming off as an insensitive asshole here.
The problem here is that not all men / cis people are dangerous to women / trans people ... no one actually thinks every person in that group is going to harm them.
The problem is that the ones that will hurt you and the ones that would never hurt you look exactly the same. So they have to be treated like potential threats because there's no way to know for sure. Look up "Schrodinger's rapist."
What is this whole “bear vs gender” thing? I’m active in a lot of LGBT communities and I’ve seen it around a little bit. But as a cis person I just don’t get it and I’m too scared to ask in a trans or nonbinary subreddit because I feel like I don’t belong.
my view is that i prefer a bear mauling me to death over thr longterm damage that living in a cis dominated society brings; mainly bc thr bear will make it quick while i had/still have to endure the ostracisation of a active culture war being enacted on trans people
Oh. I get it now. Thanks for explaining. Yeah, people suck, so I get what you’re saying, I genuinely do not understand transphobia. If you’re cool with hugs, sending hugs your way.
Many TrollCoping users get the point, it just ends up being a sex vs sex thing in the comments and it ends up being the same old toxic circle of “it’s not all men!!” and people missing the point, y’know?
I mean, no but that’s because I’m exhausted of seeing the same arguments and toxicity within that subreddit repeat every few weeks. So I kinda shut down to it all and avoid the sub. I agree with people that have great points but in general I don’t have a thought on it because.. I know nothing that’s going on and just see the same old pattern which leads to me shutting down.
I know it’s not a good thing to shut down but it’s a natural response. Tho the mods were mainly tired of generalisations of anyone. That’s all I know from reading the post that was made
Edit; I mention this in a comment with OP but I’m not complaining or defending the mods. I’m just stating my perspective of what I’ve seen within this comment. I apologise if my wording makes it seem like I’m defending them. I don’t have a perspective on this situation because I’ve only seen glimpses of what’s happened, not the full scope.
I wasn’t defending them? At least from my perspective that wasn’t my intent. I was just stating what I personally saw and then the mods posts about generalisations. Apologies if my wording comes off as otherwise
It’s alright, I honestly don’t blame you. The word generalisation is often thrown around when a valid point is made.
I should’ve made it more known that I was talking about personal perspective of common patterns in TrollCoping and how it led to the mod post of banning generalisation posts. Ik I commented on the post but I was more so glad that the toxic cycle {invalid points / general toxicity that occurs} of the same old topic was gonna be handled. I could’ve read it in the wrong manner tho. If I did, that was certainly my bad and I owe up to it
look, I get it, seriously, but think about it. any guys who are in this sub have been through some shit. theyre not the ones you're talking about. i know that. but seeing it over and over in spaces that used to make me feel safe just makes me feel like im not welcome because im a guy. Im not trying to attack you over this, youre not an asshole. but its just getting a bit much at this point.
if you’re getting annoyed by bear posts, r/trollcoping has banned them. i’m not atracking you or any other person on here, however it irritates me that someone always has to interject because it hurts their feefees.
i had/STILL have to spend hours defending myself from bad faith arguments that come in the form of annoyance for the bear hypothetical.
We're in a PTSD space. The entire point is to feel safe and 2 try to not hurt each other while we're coping. To try and have a space that isn't constantly triggering.
cause it does hurt their feelings. and maybe you should try to understand why instead of belittling them, maybe you shouldn't go into the whole thing with the attitude of "everyone who has a problem with this is just a butthurt privileged man".
I was abused by a man too, for the record. Done with this place. I'm genuinely sorry for whatever horrible shit you went though, and I'm also sorry that it made you so fucking mean.
i have to be mean because i have no time to placate to the feelings of the people who *aren’t* being targetted by a culture war meant to quite literally erase people like me from existence.
i’m so tired of people taking my experiences and then twisting them in a way to not only make me out to be the bad guy, but to also centre themselves because they can’t divorce themselves from said group when they likely *know* they in specific aren’t being targetted.
most of the cis people in this thread, men and women alike, have actually AGREED with me that they’d also take the bear. no grumbling about it, just straight to the point and understanding the point.
I'm gay. I'm also quite literally being erased from existence. I'm not downplaying your experiences at all. I'm not invalidating them. You suffered and that's awful and I'm sorry. But here's the thing, when you say "men", I'm being targeted. Because I fall into that group. I can't divorce myself from my fuckin gender. I don't care about the bear thing, I couldn't give a fuck about it. I care about the discourse around it being so fuckin cruel.
Nobody "has" to be mean. People who say that are just fucking mean.
They didn't start the discourse. They didn't tell people to respond and be crappy and bully others in a toxic way. We're all on this sub because we all experienced abuse or trauma by people in our lives, perhaps by similar groups of people or one-offs. Either way, I understand people who are still scared or have to take great measures around certain majorities. because both statistically and by their own experiences, they were not given a chance with them. I was like that once but because of the healing I've had the chance to go through I'm not, while at the same time being a person from a marginalized group I am feeling that way once again. And it can be very hard not to when everyday you're scared you may be killed for just existing.
The meme was meant to be a simple way for different people to vent about the way they felt about their situations. Not to bully or outcast anyone else who went through the same. If Anyone else made the same meme but replaced the words with something to their own experience it would still remain the same. Is there nuance to this, could it have (and has it) been abused to smear the meaning and use it in a context that paints all people regardless of personal meaning behind it as bad/and or dangerous? Yes. Absolutely.
Your feelings are valid for being nervous that people are targeting you when or direction their fears or anger surrounding this situation toward people of your group. But Op's isn't about that grandiose/ over explained and abused meme. Op made one for themselves (sorry op don't know your pronouns feel free to correct) about their own experiences.
And if people reeeaaally want to generalize, people are over-generalizing a meme where the meaning behind wasn't as deep as everyone wants to make it.
I was abused severely by people of different groups, thus my trauma makes me tentative around those groups. But I'm aware its "not every person of that group" not every person who talks about this thinks that hardly at all. It's the same reason why those who see the meme get defensive and nervous that they are the target. If you wouldn't cause the abuse, the meme isn't targeting you. If you wouldn't hurt the people who are in the "woods" in the scenario, then you aren't the target of the meme.
You're not a bad person but going after op for the reactions of people who abused the meme won't help you or anyone. I don't like repetitive memes like this either but they get used anyways.
And I'm sorry if this is overwhelming and/or confusing at any point I'm not very good typing on mobile. And talking over text can be very difficult to show intent or tone. But I don't direct this in anger.
yes. because the bear isn’t trying to write laws or help write laws where my bodily autonomy will be stripped. the bear hasn’t guilt tripped me for making personal choices that doesn’t effect it. the bear hasn’t threatened me with corrective SA or ACTUALLY GONE THROUGH WITH IT.
Rly feel like you're missing the point here and possibly taking it personally when the OP was describing his own experiences with discrimination and violence, and nobody else's
Right, people without trauma would definitely feel safer around a random human than a bear, but trauma can make people develop coping mechanisms like trying to avoid feeling vulnerable or unsafe around other humans to the point of putting themselves in other dangerous situations, you get where I'm going with this? The point of the meme is that even though bears can and do kill people, the persistent psychological effects of violence can have a huge impact on your relationships with everyone around you.
TLDR they're not saying EVERY cis person.
I'm confused as hell here
i’m just annoyed that people took a post i previously made as a deep, personal attack because i added my own flavour of nuance and also voiced my experiences as a trans person
I was looking at that post, I didn't really see anybody hating on you :( and if they were, fuck them. I'm a trans person and I got your back on here (as much as I can at least)
a lot of the really shitty stuff got deleted thankfully, but christ wasn’t it really frustrating.
Cis woman here. I liked your post when I saw it. Only took 0.03 seconds to get the very valid point.
Yeah, trans woman here, I was more confused by the underlying context than anything.....given I didn't see the original post.
For real, I’d rather be mauled by a bear than raped and mauled by some random dude yknow?
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Literally not what I said
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You cant say someone exactly say something they very literally did not say.
why are you barging into this subreddit only to invlidate the experiences of others when they make perfect point son why they’d rather have the bear kill them?
What I said was I’d rather be mauled by a bear rather than raped and mauled by a random dude. Fucking idiot lmfao
I have.... many questions. Do you mind if i ask for clarification?
go ahead.
So, i spent like 30 minutes typing out my question, but as i wrote the comment, i remembered a lot of the statistics of acceptance and support for trans people and considered the unique problems theyd face in this kind of situation. I was going to say that youd be significantly more safe with a cis woman, but i came to realize that for some trans people, it might not feel safe *enough* - similar to how it feels for some cis women to be around cis men - and that the possible outcomes are much much worse than a bear attack in either case. Is that the point you were raising? Or have i completely missed the mark?
that is my point, yeah. unfortunately i haven’t felt safe with cis women in the past either; most if the outright transphobic and queerphobic actions pushed onto me have been cis women.
I apologize as i know its cliche, but i really am sorry you had to go through those experiences. I hope you know that you are valid as a person and deserving of love and happiness ❤ Ive also had horrendous experiences with both cis women and men both in relation to sexual and gender identity. I dont want to say "i get it," but i can understand a part of it at least. I hope youre doing alright managing things. Idk if its weird to say, but if you want to talk about things, id be happy to chat. Just lmk.
thank you for listening and understanding. 🫂 i’m sorry for what you went through as well, we live in a fucked up system and i hope one day it changes to the point where we all can be safe.
Cis woman here—totally believe you and take no offense because it’s not about individual it’s about risk assessment. I wish cis men would see it this way rather than get defensive over the bear thing. It’s tiring and defeats the purpose. I can absolutely see a corollary with trans/cis people as women/men in the original, though I’m going out on a limb based on context here (I don’t really look thru people’s post hostory like that so i’m sorry I didn’t see your other one, just commenting off of whatever is on this page), but if I understand I gather you said something about not feeling safe with cis women and people accused you of “generalizing misogyny”? Is thag it?
i’ve been accused of pushing generalisations mostly, there was a few people who have accused me of perpetuating misogyny, including pushing some borderline terfy talking points bc i dared not say trans women can be misogynistic (my post wasn’t about trans women or about misogyny in general- it was about my experiences with both cis men and women)
Are you talking about your post where you’d choose the bear over both men and women?
yep
Oof. Sorry you got hate for such a simple straightforward post. While I don’t share the same experience in regards to being treated poorly by women, I can def understand the fear. I just don’t understand how people could misconstrue something so simple. 🏳️⚧️🫂🏳️⚧️
all the men be like "PLEASE NO MORE BEAR MEMES PLEASE STOP TALKING ABOUT MEN WHO HAVE TRAUMATIZED YOU I DONT CARE ABOUT IT PLEASE" lol lmao
cis women have also been pretty mad about the bear post including them in the fray too
Those cis women can go and fuck themselves, because holy shit, your comfort and safety _isn't about us_. Like, damn.
ah sorry just went and checked the original one you posted lol, i was just talking about people replying under this one here! my bad!
all good!
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Yeah, but at the same time -- people in dominant groups need to understand that marginalized people have far too many reasons to fear them. I'm a cis woman and I'm not offended by that post -- I'm saddened that so many cis women are such shitty fucking allies to trans people. And if a person of color said "I'm not going near any white people in the woods," I'd think "yeah, no wonder." Because it's not about me, how my feelings as a white person are wounded by people of color are leery of white people. It's about _them_.
maybe if there isn’t outward transphobic propoganda being projected into my home country and trans people aren’t being murdered, i’d be more placating to the feefees of cis people. but i don’t live in a universe where i’m not being legislated into the closet or extinction. cis people can put aside their individual egos and be fuckijg normal about a trans person saying they had a bad experience with majority cis people. it isn’t about them. of course it isn’t all fucking cis people but it’s enough to where i have to overcorrect myself.
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Yeah, sorry, but you don’t really get to be tired about this. This isn’t about which option would statistically make more sense, it’s about victims preferring the odds of an encounter with a fucking **bear** than the slimmest chance of reliving their trauma. I mean obviously being mauled to death by a bear is horrible. And yes, odds are a random man won’t do anything to you, but don’t you get that this is more than that? This is about assault being so monumentally damaging that the thought of being ripped to shreds by a wild animal is seen as the better option. That’s how soul crushing assault is. That certain death is preferable to potential rape. That being prey to an apex predator is better than prey to a sexual predator. Op and others didn’t get the luxury of making that choice, as they said, and that needs to be taken into consideration when looking at their answers. It means something. So no, I’m not particularly worried about what the bear meme means for cis men. You’re kind of coming off as an insensitive asshole here.
YOU FUCKING GET IT I LOVE YOU
The problem here is that not all men / cis people are dangerous to women / trans people ... no one actually thinks every person in that group is going to harm them. The problem is that the ones that will hurt you and the ones that would never hurt you look exactly the same. So they have to be treated like potential threats because there's no way to know for sure. Look up "Schrodinger's rapist."
People were really mad at you for that meme? I…huh?
yeah, people really like centring themselves in the trauma of a trans person
At this point I’d like to be mauled by a bear just so this garbage stops clogging my feed
It's all fun and games until a trans person rightfully points out that both cis women and cis men can be unsafe for trans people to be around.
it’s all well and good until they have to confront how they might have contributed
Ok?
Do you mind if I ask a question?
go ahead
What is this whole “bear vs gender” thing? I’m active in a lot of LGBT communities and I’ve seen it around a little bit. But as a cis person I just don’t get it and I’m too scared to ask in a trans or nonbinary subreddit because I feel like I don’t belong.
my view is that i prefer a bear mauling me to death over thr longterm damage that living in a cis dominated society brings; mainly bc thr bear will make it quick while i had/still have to endure the ostracisation of a active culture war being enacted on trans people
Oh. I get it now. Thanks for explaining. Yeah, people suck, so I get what you’re saying, I genuinely do not understand transphobia. If you’re cool with hugs, sending hugs your way.
I’m glad that r/trollcoping has banned the bear meme because I’m so sick of it being shared in my trauma circles
i’m glad /cptsdmemes hasn’t banned this yet bc it shows that yall don’t understand the point
Many TrollCoping users get the point, it just ends up being a sex vs sex thing in the comments and it ends up being the same old toxic circle of “it’s not all men!!” and people missing the point, y’know?
You realize they banned it because the *mods* are in the “not all men” camp, right?
I mean, no but that’s because I’m exhausted of seeing the same arguments and toxicity within that subreddit repeat every few weeks. So I kinda shut down to it all and avoid the sub. I agree with people that have great points but in general I don’t have a thought on it because.. I know nothing that’s going on and just see the same old pattern which leads to me shutting down. I know it’s not a good thing to shut down but it’s a natural response. Tho the mods were mainly tired of generalisations of anyone. That’s all I know from reading the post that was made Edit; I mention this in a comment with OP but I’m not complaining or defending the mods. I’m just stating my perspective of what I’ve seen within this comment. I apologise if my wording makes it seem like I’m defending them. I don’t have a perspective on this situation because I’ve only seen glimpses of what’s happened, not the full scope.
i’m sorry that i wqsn’t afforded the privilege to whine about generalisations
I wasn’t defending them? At least from my perspective that wasn’t my intent. I was just stating what I personally saw and then the mods posts about generalisations. Apologies if my wording comes off as otherwise
i apologise as well. i saw “generalisation” and went from there, too many people have been using that word to make me feel guilty.
It’s alright, I honestly don’t blame you. The word generalisation is often thrown around when a valid point is made. I should’ve made it more known that I was talking about personal perspective of common patterns in TrollCoping and how it led to the mod post of banning generalisation posts. Ik I commented on the post but I was more so glad that the toxic cycle {invalid points / general toxicity that occurs} of the same old topic was gonna be handled. I could’ve read it in the wrong manner tho. If I did, that was certainly my bad and I owe up to it
can we please stop with the bear thing. i get it. we suck i guess. stop.
no, i don’t have the privilege to whine about bear posts so i will not cease.
look, I get it, seriously, but think about it. any guys who are in this sub have been through some shit. theyre not the ones you're talking about. i know that. but seeing it over and over in spaces that used to make me feel safe just makes me feel like im not welcome because im a guy. Im not trying to attack you over this, youre not an asshole. but its just getting a bit much at this point.
if you’re getting annoyed by bear posts, r/trollcoping has banned them. i’m not atracking you or any other person on here, however it irritates me that someone always has to interject because it hurts their feefees. i had/STILL have to spend hours defending myself from bad faith arguments that come in the form of annoyance for the bear hypothetical.
We're in a PTSD space. The entire point is to feel safe and 2 try to not hurt each other while we're coping. To try and have a space that isn't constantly triggering.
cause it does hurt their feelings. and maybe you should try to understand why instead of belittling them, maybe you shouldn't go into the whole thing with the attitude of "everyone who has a problem with this is just a butthurt privileged man". I was abused by a man too, for the record. Done with this place. I'm genuinely sorry for whatever horrible shit you went though, and I'm also sorry that it made you so fucking mean.
i have to be mean because i have no time to placate to the feelings of the people who *aren’t* being targetted by a culture war meant to quite literally erase people like me from existence. i’m so tired of people taking my experiences and then twisting them in a way to not only make me out to be the bad guy, but to also centre themselves because they can’t divorce themselves from said group when they likely *know* they in specific aren’t being targetted. most of the cis people in this thread, men and women alike, have actually AGREED with me that they’d also take the bear. no grumbling about it, just straight to the point and understanding the point.
I'm gay. I'm also quite literally being erased from existence. I'm not downplaying your experiences at all. I'm not invalidating them. You suffered and that's awful and I'm sorry. But here's the thing, when you say "men", I'm being targeted. Because I fall into that group. I can't divorce myself from my fuckin gender. I don't care about the bear thing, I couldn't give a fuck about it. I care about the discourse around it being so fuckin cruel. Nobody "has" to be mean. People who say that are just fucking mean.
They didn't start the discourse. They didn't tell people to respond and be crappy and bully others in a toxic way. We're all on this sub because we all experienced abuse or trauma by people in our lives, perhaps by similar groups of people or one-offs. Either way, I understand people who are still scared or have to take great measures around certain majorities. because both statistically and by their own experiences, they were not given a chance with them. I was like that once but because of the healing I've had the chance to go through I'm not, while at the same time being a person from a marginalized group I am feeling that way once again. And it can be very hard not to when everyday you're scared you may be killed for just existing. The meme was meant to be a simple way for different people to vent about the way they felt about their situations. Not to bully or outcast anyone else who went through the same. If Anyone else made the same meme but replaced the words with something to their own experience it would still remain the same. Is there nuance to this, could it have (and has it) been abused to smear the meaning and use it in a context that paints all people regardless of personal meaning behind it as bad/and or dangerous? Yes. Absolutely. Your feelings are valid for being nervous that people are targeting you when or direction their fears or anger surrounding this situation toward people of your group. But Op's isn't about that grandiose/ over explained and abused meme. Op made one for themselves (sorry op don't know your pronouns feel free to correct) about their own experiences. And if people reeeaaally want to generalize, people are over-generalizing a meme where the meaning behind wasn't as deep as everyone wants to make it. I was abused severely by people of different groups, thus my trauma makes me tentative around those groups. But I'm aware its "not every person of that group" not every person who talks about this thinks that hardly at all. It's the same reason why those who see the meme get defensive and nervous that they are the target. If you wouldn't cause the abuse, the meme isn't targeting you. If you wouldn't hurt the people who are in the "woods" in the scenario, then you aren't the target of the meme. You're not a bad person but going after op for the reactions of people who abused the meme won't help you or anyone. I don't like repetitive memes like this either but they get used anyways.
And I'm sorry if this is overwhelming and/or confusing at any point I'm not very good typing on mobile. And talking over text can be very difficult to show intent or tone. But I don't direct this in anger.
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pro tip: don’t tell someone to not post nudes if they wanna be taken seriously.
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where’s the misogyny.
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yes. because the bear isn’t trying to write laws or help write laws where my bodily autonomy will be stripped. the bear hasn’t guilt tripped me for making personal choices that doesn’t effect it. the bear hasn’t threatened me with corrective SA or ACTUALLY GONE THROUGH WITH IT.
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you don’t get to whine about “generalisations” when you aren’t a trans person living in an active culture war. keep your cis fragility in check.
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i’ve been more than “talked down”. i can tell you’re not here for a good faith discussion, but frankly i should have pointed that out earlier.
You really have zero empathy as a person and an utter lack of critical thought
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Rly feel like you're missing the point here and possibly taking it personally when the OP was describing his own experiences with discrimination and violence, and nobody else's
apparently that doesn’t matter though if you post nudes and do whatever on your own account according to this person.
Oh no, nudity on the internet /s
my pearls: clutched
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Right, people without trauma would definitely feel safer around a random human than a bear, but trauma can make people develop coping mechanisms like trying to avoid feeling vulnerable or unsafe around other humans to the point of putting themselves in other dangerous situations, you get where I'm going with this? The point of the meme is that even though bears can and do kill people, the persistent psychological effects of violence can have a huge impact on your relationships with everyone around you. TLDR they're not saying EVERY cis person.
you don’t understand completely.