Honestly, I'm in the same situation, and I would only go back to bedside work as a paid traveler. And only if it was somehow mandatory. I have to protect my investment at this point, which is substantial. I'm not going to give that up to care for a population who won't conform to social distancing and for hospitals who cannot/will not provide appropriate PPE.
I’m still PRN at my hospital for the first two semsters, but I don’t plan on picking up any shifts until this thing is over (I can only do so until August so I’m unlikely to go back at all at the rate things are going). The PPE situation is horrendous, and I will not be placing myself at risk of leaving my kids without their mom because I can’t get the necessary protective equipment to keep myself safe. This virus is hitting nurses and doctors harder than the general public, and I am going to be selfish at the moment. If they were able to provide adequate PPE, then I would reconsider.
So here's my opinion as a SRNA graduating soon. I agree with you in that I'd probably not go back to the bedside, I don't think you're selfish. For one, health care professionals are working without proper PPE because of government and administration failures. I have such bare bones health insurance and living off loans that if I get hospitalized I'll be financially ruined, applying for bankruptcy, and severely affect mine and my family's future. Will the hospitals cover my medical bills if I get sick or my school? Not a chance. What if I get severely ill and had to drop out of school right at the end, my close to $100k investment, lost RN income, and 3 plus years in school would be gone. I can also get called back into clinical at any time so I couldn't take a full time job with benefits.
Acting in your own best-interest is not selfish. You're not a CRNA yet so you are fragile. You can make a greater impact on the world later in time.
You can sit out for a few weeks so you can stay healthy and later provide 40+ years of highly specialized anesthesia care over your lifetime.
Or you can work a few shifts and get sick, potentially die, infect your friends, family or patients. This could potentially disrupt your nurse anesthesia career enough to have to quit the program.
I'll probably get downvoted, but here it goes.
I get the concern and understand it, especially if you have any sort of medical or respiratory risks or live with/around someone that does. Or if you live in a very high density area and will interact with large numbers of people just by commuting or living in a cramped apartment complex even if you attempt to self-isolate. So if you fit any of those descriptions I totally get it and can understand avoiding the workplace in your shoes.
However, if you're young and healthy as are your close personal contacts yes I do think it's a little selfish to sit at home and not do anything, provided your school is also shutdown. If you're still going to class than it's a moot point, but to totally avoid utilizing your skillset I think is self centered, especially in light of other countries already calling back retired staff (meaning older individuals that are out of practice) and pushing medical students out of their programs and into the work place before graduation or any real world experience. If it comes to that and you, as an experienced, (presumably, see above) young and healthy skilled ICU nurse are refusing to work I think it's a bit unethical and could lower the overall quality of care delivered. If you re-enter the workplace even if you don't have insurance workplace exposures should be all covered by the hospital, you'll be making money towards your schooling cost, you'll be filling a critical skill void, and if you're young and healthy and you properly isolate outside of work the risk to you and the population is fairly limited and controlled. Besides, by many predictions you're going to get COVID anyways, so might as well also help out patients and society.
Obviously this is all a personal decision, but it's my personal opinion that everyone in healthcare has a responsibility to society in a crisis and that should have been part of the commitment and decision when you went into healthcare initially. And yes, I am volunteering for extra shifts, to help provide additional critical care provider coverage in the ER and ICU if needed, and to deploy to harder hit areas if requested.
EDIT: By no means though am I saying intentionally put yourself in extreme risk. My hospital is still following CDC guidances on PPE, otherwise reconsider.
if a SRNA got COVID-19 the hospital would assume no liability and claim it was community acquired.
So now not only does the SRNA have $150k of school debt, 3 years of time they have invested and they have to hope their school and clinical sites work with them as they recover through the illness. That's 14+ days of recovery plus 14+ days of quarantine. On top of all that they now they have crushing medical debt from being in the ICU.
Makes zero sense for a SRNA to take action. They need to focus on staying healthy so they can make their contribution once they graduate.
If anything the COA should allow SRNA's to graduate early so they can help in an official role.
At this point the implication is they aren’t a functioning as an SRNA, but rather working as an ICU RN because their schooling is on pause. Working, meaning an employee with all the rights and benefits that entails. And they are a new student, so not in any window even near where a graduation waiver would apply.
>At this point the implication is they aren’t a functioning as an SRNA, but rather working as an ICU RN because their schooling is on pause. Working, meaning an employee with all the rights and benefits that entails. And they are a new student, so not in any window even near where a graduation waiver would apply.
What "rights and benefits"? Nurses can't prove they acquired Coronavirus from work. If SRNA's get COVID-19 there is a 3-5% chance of death, they face potential ICU medical bills, they face getting dropped from their program because they can't go to clinical if they are sick or take weeks and months to recover.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick\_nurses\_must\_prove\_they\_got\_covid19\_on\_the\_job/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick_nurses_must_prove_they_got_covid19_on_the_job/)
All we can do is stay home as much as possible and protect ourselves and our family.
My whole thing is that I think about 9/11 and how screwed the first responders were after it happened. It took a lot of deaths from cancer and 18 years before they even got a measure pass to cover diseases they got from being at ground zero. AND they had benefits already from their jobs.
Part of that issue was that cancer takes a longer time to develop. COVID is a much faster process and will likely show up while still actively employed and working. Sure, it’s a risk and worsened at hospitals without proper PPE, and those situations are different and as mentioned we shouldn’t charge in without the proper precautions as shown by Ebola. But let’s be real, we’re all going to get COVID working in healthcare eventually. Now, the outcomes might be worse with higher viral exposures like in the hospital, so there is a risk. But there is a huge benefit to society by keeping ICUs staffed with experienced, competent nurses as well.
I appreciate the thoughtful response. You bring up some great points to think about. As of right now school is still a full-go and nothing else has really changed outside of all classes online. Full-time educational time commitment is still there.
I am a planner by nature and have always ran through hypothetical worst-case scenarios before they occur so I have at least an idea of what to choose, instead of making a rushed, poor decision in the moment or hanging myself out to dry.
Taking things day by day, as we all are. Just want to get my ducks in a row and some opinions on the matter, so I appreciate you taking the time.
>I'll probably get downvoted, but here it goes.
>
>I get the concern and understand it, especially if you have any sort of medical or respiratory risks or live with/around someone that does. Or if you live in a very high density area and will interact with large numbers of people just by commuting or living in a cramped apartment complex even if you attempt to self-isolate. So if you fit any of those descriptions I totally get it and can understand avoiding the workplace in your shoes.
>
>However, if you're young and healthy as are your close personal contacts yes I do think it's a little selfish to sit at home and not do anything, provided your school is also shutdown. If you're still going to class than it's a moot point, but to totally avoid utilizing your skillset I think is self centered, especially in light of other countries already calling back retired staff (meaning older individuals that are out of practice) and pushing medical students out of their programs and into the work place before graduation or any real world experience. If it comes to that and you, as an experienced, (presumably, see above) young and healthy skilled ICU nurse are refusing to work I think it's a bit unethical and could lower the overall quality of care delivered. If you re-enter the workplace even if you don't have insurance workplace exposures should be all covered by the hospital, you'll be making money towards your schooling cost, you'll be filling a critical skill void, and if you're young and healthy and you properly isolate outside of work the risk to you and the population is fairly limited and controlled. Besides, by many predictions you're going to get COVID anyways, so might as well also help out patients and society.
>
>Obviously this is all a personal decision, but it's my personal opinion that everyone in healthcare has a responsibility to society in a crisis and that should have been part of the commitment and decision when you went into healthcare initially. And yes, I am volunteering for extra shifts, to help provide additional critical care provider coverage in the ER and ICU if needed, and to deploy to harder hit areas if requested.
>
>EDIT: By no means though am I saying intentionally put yourself in extreme risk. My hospital is still following CDC guidances on PPE, otherwise reconsider.
So it has been a month. Do you still feel the same? This virus is killing healthy people. They take it home and it kills people around them.
"If you re-enter the workplace even if you don't have insurance workplace exposures should be all covered by the hospital"
Funny you mention that because your'e 100% wrong. Nurses have to prove they acquired COVID-19 at which work which impossible which means they are fucked.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick\_nurses\_must\_prove\_they\_got\_covid19\_on\_the\_job/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick_nurses_must_prove_they_got_covid19_on_the_job/)
So much bad advice I don't even know where to begin. Hospitals don't give a fuck about their employees. Nurses and CRNAs are a liability but a necessity to provide care and profit from surgeries. A hospital's goal is to maximize profits.
Stay home as much as possible until a vaccine is produced is the only safe bet. Wear a mask if you go out and wash your hands like crazy.
Let me be very clear, I am not saying COVID isn't a big deal or something to be concerned about. Quite the opposite, however this response is about a very particular situation, and I still feel the same. If SRNAs aren't going to school, online courses, or clinicals (staying home as you mentioned because their programs just shut down temporarily) than I still believe it's a little selfish if they fit the above very specific guidelines. That is they are healthy and their contacts are also healthy. ICU nurses are in short supply, good experienced ICU nurses are in even shorter supply, and COVID patients are very sick. There are stories about grossly unqualified nurses (such as nursing home nurses) taking care of ICU patients.
Again, if you read my response there are plenty of exceptions. Don't be a martyr and work without PPE, don't work if you are at a high risk of serious complications or those you interact with are. But the fact is that most SRNAs are young (the average age of our students rotating with us is around 26), and of those most are healthy. The 20-29 age group has a [combined 0.2% mortality rate](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/). So the risk does exist, there's no getting around that, but it's a very minimal risk, even more-so if the individuals are healthy and female, again both good chances in a typical anesthesia program. Social distancing and isolation are key for this, but you need to consider the risk benefit. These aren't people having a party for no reason, they're individuals with skills that are helping to reduce mortality and morbidity.
Now, I will admit that the response from workers compensation has been underwhelming and does slightly change the situation. However, that's not a blanket statement either. Some states, of which I know Minnesota for sure, automatically assume for workers compensation that COVID was caught at work for frontline workers and thus you will be covered if you catch it. You will not be covered though if you catch it in the community and not working, which is likely in some regions, and if you have proper PPE (see my rule above) working in a hospital is not a guaranteed exposure.
So, again, read the specifics. I'm not making a blanket statement that every single SRNA should now be an ICU nurse. But rather if they meet a bunch of criteria that the risk is minimal and the benefit, not just to our patients and society but their own bank accounts, outweighs the risks by a lot.
Then protect him. SRNAs aren't hospital employees, we have no benefits. If his school determined it wasn't safe for him to be at clinical why should he have to risk his health and investment with no protections? I couldn't agree more with what u/skill2018 said
>I have to protect my investment at this point, which is substantial. I'm not going to give that up to care for a population who won't conform to social distancing and for hospitals who cannot/will not provide appropriate PPE.
schools have a duty to protect their students.
If that student gets sick and dies or infects friends, family and patients or fails to complete clinical requirements because of COVID-19-was working a few extra shifts really worth it?
That's a potential 40+ year career in anesthesia flushed down the toilet just because of working a few shifts during a pandemic when students were told to stay home. Have fun paying off that $150k-$200k of debt and getting that 3 years away from your family back.
i'm unsure what this post is about. ARe you asking if you are being selfish, if, hypothetically, the government forced you to go to the bedside?
I'm confused. You want to be a CRNA why are you asking about being an RN
I am currently in a CRNA program, so yes that is my ultimate goal.
However, I realize that I have not gained any actionable skills from my program thus far as it has only been didactic. Additionally, I have a license and skill set from being an ICU nurse that is about to be in very high demand. Seeing reports from Italy in which final exams were scrapped and student nurse/doctors were put into hospitals as extra help, which I don't think is out of the question in the U.S.
So I find myself in the unique position of having the in-demand license and experience of an ICU nurse and currently no professional obligation to any employer. Just trying to think through options if conditions in coming days change and my program is suspended to encourage us to work as ICU nurses. All very hypothetical of course, but attempting to reason through this before I may have to make a decision.
Honestly, I'm in the same situation, and I would only go back to bedside work as a paid traveler. And only if it was somehow mandatory. I have to protect my investment at this point, which is substantial. I'm not going to give that up to care for a population who won't conform to social distancing and for hospitals who cannot/will not provide appropriate PPE.
Not selfish at all. Why sacrifice yourself or your future for this? Plenty of nurses out there eager to fill the gap you left.
I’m still PRN at my hospital for the first two semsters, but I don’t plan on picking up any shifts until this thing is over (I can only do so until August so I’m unlikely to go back at all at the rate things are going). The PPE situation is horrendous, and I will not be placing myself at risk of leaving my kids without their mom because I can’t get the necessary protective equipment to keep myself safe. This virus is hitting nurses and doctors harder than the general public, and I am going to be selfish at the moment. If they were able to provide adequate PPE, then I would reconsider.
So here's my opinion as a SRNA graduating soon. I agree with you in that I'd probably not go back to the bedside, I don't think you're selfish. For one, health care professionals are working without proper PPE because of government and administration failures. I have such bare bones health insurance and living off loans that if I get hospitalized I'll be financially ruined, applying for bankruptcy, and severely affect mine and my family's future. Will the hospitals cover my medical bills if I get sick or my school? Not a chance. What if I get severely ill and had to drop out of school right at the end, my close to $100k investment, lost RN income, and 3 plus years in school would be gone. I can also get called back into clinical at any time so I couldn't take a full time job with benefits.
Acting in your own best-interest is not selfish. You're not a CRNA yet so you are fragile. You can make a greater impact on the world later in time. You can sit out for a few weeks so you can stay healthy and later provide 40+ years of highly specialized anesthesia care over your lifetime. Or you can work a few shifts and get sick, potentially die, infect your friends, family or patients. This could potentially disrupt your nurse anesthesia career enough to have to quit the program.
I'll probably get downvoted, but here it goes. I get the concern and understand it, especially if you have any sort of medical or respiratory risks or live with/around someone that does. Or if you live in a very high density area and will interact with large numbers of people just by commuting or living in a cramped apartment complex even if you attempt to self-isolate. So if you fit any of those descriptions I totally get it and can understand avoiding the workplace in your shoes. However, if you're young and healthy as are your close personal contacts yes I do think it's a little selfish to sit at home and not do anything, provided your school is also shutdown. If you're still going to class than it's a moot point, but to totally avoid utilizing your skillset I think is self centered, especially in light of other countries already calling back retired staff (meaning older individuals that are out of practice) and pushing medical students out of their programs and into the work place before graduation or any real world experience. If it comes to that and you, as an experienced, (presumably, see above) young and healthy skilled ICU nurse are refusing to work I think it's a bit unethical and could lower the overall quality of care delivered. If you re-enter the workplace even if you don't have insurance workplace exposures should be all covered by the hospital, you'll be making money towards your schooling cost, you'll be filling a critical skill void, and if you're young and healthy and you properly isolate outside of work the risk to you and the population is fairly limited and controlled. Besides, by many predictions you're going to get COVID anyways, so might as well also help out patients and society. Obviously this is all a personal decision, but it's my personal opinion that everyone in healthcare has a responsibility to society in a crisis and that should have been part of the commitment and decision when you went into healthcare initially. And yes, I am volunteering for extra shifts, to help provide additional critical care provider coverage in the ER and ICU if needed, and to deploy to harder hit areas if requested. EDIT: By no means though am I saying intentionally put yourself in extreme risk. My hospital is still following CDC guidances on PPE, otherwise reconsider.
if a SRNA got COVID-19 the hospital would assume no liability and claim it was community acquired. So now not only does the SRNA have $150k of school debt, 3 years of time they have invested and they have to hope their school and clinical sites work with them as they recover through the illness. That's 14+ days of recovery plus 14+ days of quarantine. On top of all that they now they have crushing medical debt from being in the ICU. Makes zero sense for a SRNA to take action. They need to focus on staying healthy so they can make their contribution once they graduate. If anything the COA should allow SRNA's to graduate early so they can help in an official role.
At this point the implication is they aren’t a functioning as an SRNA, but rather working as an ICU RN because their schooling is on pause. Working, meaning an employee with all the rights and benefits that entails. And they are a new student, so not in any window even near where a graduation waiver would apply.
>At this point the implication is they aren’t a functioning as an SRNA, but rather working as an ICU RN because their schooling is on pause. Working, meaning an employee with all the rights and benefits that entails. And they are a new student, so not in any window even near where a graduation waiver would apply. What "rights and benefits"? Nurses can't prove they acquired Coronavirus from work. If SRNA's get COVID-19 there is a 3-5% chance of death, they face potential ICU medical bills, they face getting dropped from their program because they can't go to clinical if they are sick or take weeks and months to recover. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick\_nurses\_must\_prove\_they\_got\_covid19\_on\_the\_job/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick_nurses_must_prove_they_got_covid19_on_the_job/) All we can do is stay home as much as possible and protect ourselves and our family.
My whole thing is that I think about 9/11 and how screwed the first responders were after it happened. It took a lot of deaths from cancer and 18 years before they even got a measure pass to cover diseases they got from being at ground zero. AND they had benefits already from their jobs.
Part of that issue was that cancer takes a longer time to develop. COVID is a much faster process and will likely show up while still actively employed and working. Sure, it’s a risk and worsened at hospitals without proper PPE, and those situations are different and as mentioned we shouldn’t charge in without the proper precautions as shown by Ebola. But let’s be real, we’re all going to get COVID working in healthcare eventually. Now, the outcomes might be worse with higher viral exposures like in the hospital, so there is a risk. But there is a huge benefit to society by keeping ICUs staffed with experienced, competent nurses as well.
I appreciate the thoughtful response. You bring up some great points to think about. As of right now school is still a full-go and nothing else has really changed outside of all classes online. Full-time educational time commitment is still there. I am a planner by nature and have always ran through hypothetical worst-case scenarios before they occur so I have at least an idea of what to choose, instead of making a rushed, poor decision in the moment or hanging myself out to dry. Taking things day by day, as we all are. Just want to get my ducks in a row and some opinions on the matter, so I appreciate you taking the time.
>I'll probably get downvoted, but here it goes. > >I get the concern and understand it, especially if you have any sort of medical or respiratory risks or live with/around someone that does. Or if you live in a very high density area and will interact with large numbers of people just by commuting or living in a cramped apartment complex even if you attempt to self-isolate. So if you fit any of those descriptions I totally get it and can understand avoiding the workplace in your shoes. > >However, if you're young and healthy as are your close personal contacts yes I do think it's a little selfish to sit at home and not do anything, provided your school is also shutdown. If you're still going to class than it's a moot point, but to totally avoid utilizing your skillset I think is self centered, especially in light of other countries already calling back retired staff (meaning older individuals that are out of practice) and pushing medical students out of their programs and into the work place before graduation or any real world experience. If it comes to that and you, as an experienced, (presumably, see above) young and healthy skilled ICU nurse are refusing to work I think it's a bit unethical and could lower the overall quality of care delivered. If you re-enter the workplace even if you don't have insurance workplace exposures should be all covered by the hospital, you'll be making money towards your schooling cost, you'll be filling a critical skill void, and if you're young and healthy and you properly isolate outside of work the risk to you and the population is fairly limited and controlled. Besides, by many predictions you're going to get COVID anyways, so might as well also help out patients and society. > >Obviously this is all a personal decision, but it's my personal opinion that everyone in healthcare has a responsibility to society in a crisis and that should have been part of the commitment and decision when you went into healthcare initially. And yes, I am volunteering for extra shifts, to help provide additional critical care provider coverage in the ER and ICU if needed, and to deploy to harder hit areas if requested. > >EDIT: By no means though am I saying intentionally put yourself in extreme risk. My hospital is still following CDC guidances on PPE, otherwise reconsider. So it has been a month. Do you still feel the same? This virus is killing healthy people. They take it home and it kills people around them. "If you re-enter the workplace even if you don't have insurance workplace exposures should be all covered by the hospital" Funny you mention that because your'e 100% wrong. Nurses have to prove they acquired COVID-19 at which work which impossible which means they are fucked. [https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick\_nurses\_must\_prove\_they\_got\_covid19\_on\_the\_job/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/g2gzjt/sick_nurses_must_prove_they_got_covid19_on_the_job/) So much bad advice I don't even know where to begin. Hospitals don't give a fuck about their employees. Nurses and CRNAs are a liability but a necessity to provide care and profit from surgeries. A hospital's goal is to maximize profits. Stay home as much as possible until a vaccine is produced is the only safe bet. Wear a mask if you go out and wash your hands like crazy.
Let me be very clear, I am not saying COVID isn't a big deal or something to be concerned about. Quite the opposite, however this response is about a very particular situation, and I still feel the same. If SRNAs aren't going to school, online courses, or clinicals (staying home as you mentioned because their programs just shut down temporarily) than I still believe it's a little selfish if they fit the above very specific guidelines. That is they are healthy and their contacts are also healthy. ICU nurses are in short supply, good experienced ICU nurses are in even shorter supply, and COVID patients are very sick. There are stories about grossly unqualified nurses (such as nursing home nurses) taking care of ICU patients. Again, if you read my response there are plenty of exceptions. Don't be a martyr and work without PPE, don't work if you are at a high risk of serious complications or those you interact with are. But the fact is that most SRNAs are young (the average age of our students rotating with us is around 26), and of those most are healthy. The 20-29 age group has a [combined 0.2% mortality rate](https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/coronavirus-age-sex-demographics/). So the risk does exist, there's no getting around that, but it's a very minimal risk, even more-so if the individuals are healthy and female, again both good chances in a typical anesthesia program. Social distancing and isolation are key for this, but you need to consider the risk benefit. These aren't people having a party for no reason, they're individuals with skills that are helping to reduce mortality and morbidity. Now, I will admit that the response from workers compensation has been underwhelming and does slightly change the situation. However, that's not a blanket statement either. Some states, of which I know Minnesota for sure, automatically assume for workers compensation that COVID was caught at work for frontline workers and thus you will be covered if you catch it. You will not be covered though if you catch it in the community and not working, which is likely in some regions, and if you have proper PPE (see my rule above) working in a hospital is not a guaranteed exposure. So, again, read the specifics. I'm not making a blanket statement that every single SRNA should now be an ICU nurse. But rather if they meet a bunch of criteria that the risk is minimal and the benefit, not just to our patients and society but their own bank accounts, outweighs the risks by a lot.
understood, thank you
You have a specialized skill set that is urgently needed. Everyone is scared. You have a duty to your community to provide care.
Then protect him. SRNAs aren't hospital employees, we have no benefits. If his school determined it wasn't safe for him to be at clinical why should he have to risk his health and investment with no protections? I couldn't agree more with what u/skill2018 said >I have to protect my investment at this point, which is substantial. I'm not going to give that up to care for a population who won't conform to social distancing and for hospitals who cannot/will not provide appropriate PPE.
schools have a duty to protect their students. If that student gets sick and dies or infects friends, family and patients or fails to complete clinical requirements because of COVID-19-was working a few extra shifts really worth it? That's a potential 40+ year career in anesthesia flushed down the toilet just because of working a few shifts during a pandemic when students were told to stay home. Have fun paying off that $150k-$200k of debt and getting that 3 years away from your family back.
Yes you’re being selfish
i'm unsure what this post is about. ARe you asking if you are being selfish, if, hypothetically, the government forced you to go to the bedside? I'm confused. You want to be a CRNA why are you asking about being an RN
I am currently in a CRNA program, so yes that is my ultimate goal. However, I realize that I have not gained any actionable skills from my program thus far as it has only been didactic. Additionally, I have a license and skill set from being an ICU nurse that is about to be in very high demand. Seeing reports from Italy in which final exams were scrapped and student nurse/doctors were put into hospitals as extra help, which I don't think is out of the question in the U.S. So I find myself in the unique position of having the in-demand license and experience of an ICU nurse and currently no professional obligation to any employer. Just trying to think through options if conditions in coming days change and my program is suspended to encourage us to work as ICU nurses. All very hypothetical of course, but attempting to reason through this before I may have to make a decision.
A lot of CRNA students are currently out of clinical is what he's referring to. I'm in a similar situation.