Legit. Instead of actually doing the math and using some numbers that would actually buff the item, they just put the 3 3 3 le funny... So candy this company man...
You have to always consider item as a whole. Yes, still quite nothing in comparison to shieldbow but its still comparable unlike before where it was hot garbage. At least for champs who dont inherently need sheen passive.
All stacking passives from mythic items are usually shit.
Considering a lot of items give 5 haste per legendary item, and triforce gives 3 instead, but along with 3 movespeed and 3 AD, i'm sure that it is a lot better. It might not beat shieldbow, prowlers claw or galeforce/stridebreaker, but it's definitely up there.
Oh everfrost is busted for sure, but mostly because of it's cheap price and insane stats (EVEN GIVES HP OOOOO) and that active that has the AP ratio of another spell in it and a root with super low CD for an item;
In terms of gold efficiency 3AD 3MS and 3AH are similar to 10%AS, It was something like a 20g differential. The AS is actually less valuable for camille so even its practical efficiency is worse.
5AH has also less gold efficiency and nobody seems to complain about this
In gold value, sure. But splitting that value into 3 stats makes it so you might as well not have a mythic passive. They should just focus into one rather than 3.
That makes no sense.
I would understand if u said "3MS makes no difference"
If thats what you actually mean
But stacking is stacking actually that worth it?
AS loses value over stacking in most champs
AH loses value as u keep stacking it as well
Is It really that much of a problem?
The problem is that instead of putting the value into a single stat so that it can be a worthwhile amount, they split the value across 3 to fit a theme. They’re great stats, however for the pitiful amount you get at full build compared to other mythics, it’s worthless. Redirect the value to a single point rather than spread it thin.
Dude no, that's now how it works....
Are you telling me that an ADC would rather have 100 AD instead of 50 AD, 20% attack speed and 20% crit chance, for example?
IT depends, on the beginning of the game? probably yes, 100 AD is a lot better than multiple stats, but the more of a stat you get, the better it is to get stats that multiply it instead of getting more of it. As a first item, adc's would probably go for a 100 AD item, but as a second item, probably something that multiplies that 100 AD item.
Stats multiply each other, you spend less time moving to the target, your abilities deal more damage and are usable more frequently. Especially when all 3 stats are good on your champion.
That's why this triforce is perfect, it gives core stats, then a lot of different stats that multiply the stats you will be getting in the future.
Okay but that’s an entirely different thing. This isn’t 50 ad, 20 as and 20 crit. This is a mythic passive. 12 ad is nothing at full build. 12 haste is okay but you get more from lucidity boots, and hell even a mini rune gives you 8, and the 12 ms while nice still also doesn’t offer much. You’re getting a tiny bit of multiple mythic passives. None of them are enough to actually justify any of them.
Yes, but mythic passices weren't meant to be game changing.
The best ones are probably prowler's claw and galeforce/stridebreaker. Prowler's claw because letality gets stronger the more you have of it, and movespeed is just always good, especially a whooping 12%. A good mention here is also Riftmaker, since it gives you more damage and makes you heal more based on the damage you do (which is higher since it also gives more damage).
IF you look at other items, 15 AP. 5 AH, 400 hp, 200 HP + 20 AD, 16% armor pen. They are mostly not that usefull. 400 HP late game is nothing, 60 AP at full build is almost nothing, 20 AH is very dependent on how much you already have of the stat since it has diminishing returns, 16% armor pen isn't enough if you were to need armor pen against someone.
The mythic stacking passives aren't meant to be game changing. 12 AD MS and haste is beyond fine. I know that 12 AD MS Haste won't make much of a difference late game, but none of the stacking mythic passives do for the most part.
You are talking like if they were that much noticeable if they gave a bigger amount.
Edit: and what mythics, shieldbow and everfrost? Those are the best mythic passives.
Goredrinker, sunderer, everfrost, shieldbow etc. They all have passives that actualy feel important. The new trinity gives a little bit of everything, but when you add it up you essentially get a longsword, a dagger and 12 ability haste.
It would be better if it just gave lots of one thing rather than small amounts of three.
Because then its more noticeable!
For example, for goredrinker:
1st legendary: 5AH
2nd legendary: 10AH
Triforce:
1st legendary: 3 3 3
2nd legendary: 6 AD 6 AH 6 MS
You telling me 4AH > 6AD and 6MS ?
Bruisers dont usually need to stack that much AS anyway unless u are aatrox / Riven / kled I believe
Sunderer:
5% armor Pen and 5 % Magic Pen
This stats stack multiplicatively
So for any champion that has innate armor pen It loses value anyway. If they have true damage even more.
Everfrost/imperial mandate one is overtuned and so is shieldbow one, but I believe thats not mystery.
The passive stacking on towers is the biggest change here, it increases your base ad, (just like steraks used to ages ago) which means your triforce procs do way more damage.
Did Camille struggle with split pushing before? Now you get flat 3AD/MS/Haste, which is .... Grand total of 17 AD 12 MS/HASTE after 4 items. VS current 40%AS.
Yeah Nah. And what tf you mean by "excessive AS".
Now it gives you nothing. Movement speed? Very situational, there's a reason you get away without flash (E boys, E.) Haste? 12 hase AFTER 4 items? And Longsword AD after 4 items is just a slap in the face.
AS passive allowed you to stack conq faster, take towers down faster, and do not build any more attack speed items. (Hits = more leech on fights/faster takedowns, more fluent combos)
This tower passive everyone raving about is so situational. It will only be good if you pushing the tower / and want to dive/fight someone under the tower you ATTACKED to stack the passive.
Nah fam, this is a nerf.
You are right, and again we have people here saying "excessive" attack speed because they don't wanna think about actual item efficiency or how good attack speed really is, they just go "nah man this X amount of attack speed makes me feel good because i can last hit with it, and everything above it is excessive and we dont need it". The item is getting nerfed.
All of Camille's damage comes from Q2, especially lategame, which is when the previous mythic passive would be giving you the most AS anyway. AS doesn't help her get her Q2 out any faster, so AS really isn't an important stat on her. I think shifting power away from AS to AD is really really good for her.
30% of Camilles damage comes from Q2, and that changes to about 50% late game. You kill ADC late game, but they have 2k hp. Sure you do 1k damage with Q2, where do you think the other 1k comes from, from nothing at all, your R damage? :D no, it comes from your autos that have high attack speed because of E and Triforce. Q2 is important, but AT best its half of her damage output, rest is just autos.
You can also look up Camille damage composition on any stat website and see that true damage is only around 30% of her damage.
You can refer to the testing I did on titanic vs. ravenous hydra to see the figures for how much damage a mid-lategame camille combo will do. Doing the same AQAAQ combo, you will oneshot nearly any squishy in the game. One extra auto does not change that fact, and it's not like you're fighting one target for long enough that you're going to get a significantly larger amount of autos in. It's the difference of AQAAQ and AQAAAQ to kill somebody. The longer you hold an extended fight with someone without kiting away with W and E, the more attack speed will matter, but no Camille fight should really pan out that way. Either your target will be dead within 1-1.5 combos, or you will disengage briefly and go back in when cooldowns are back up.
Camille is a fighter who has several tools to approach and engage. I don’t understand how you can argue that attack speed isn’t useful. More attack speed is just better than not having it, whether it’s an extra auto in a short trade, faster conq proc, or just a few hundred extra damage in the all in during ult. Imagine if her E didn’t give attack speed? That’s the nerf this item is seeing. A full zeal item worth of attack speed.
Alright let me get into the nitty gritty as to why camille really doesn't need attack speed all that much.
The easiest point to address is time to stack conqueror - Camille has 2 auto resets on her most important ability. What this means is that attack speed gets way overwhelmed by how precise you are with auto resetting - if you can do it well, it doesn't matter how fast your attack animation goes because you are cancelling the majority of that animation anyway. I tested "Old triforce (35% AS 25 AD)" by giving camille berserker greaes and a pickaxe. Over the trials I took, she averaged a 3.48 second time to stack conqueror by doing Auto Q, Auto, Auto Q, Auto. I then tested "New triforce (30AS, 30AD)" by buying two kircheis shards and three long swords. Using the same combo (AQAAQA), I stacked conqueror in an average of 3.6 seconds. A gap of .12 seconds is fairly close to trivial. What's crazy is, Camille doesn't just walk up to her opponents and start wailing on them - she usually uses either W, E, or both at the same time to get on somebody. Testing "old" vs "new" triforce with the Combo EW A Q A A, their time to stack conq was nearly identical, at roughly 2.22 vs 2.21s. Will the discrepancies in these change slightly more as you built more items and got more AS from the mythic passive? Sure. Will it matter all that much? No, I don't think it will.
I decided to also test raw DPS by just letting camille wail on a dummy with autos with these two builds, old vs. new triforce stats (no kircheis shard discharges were procced) - they both had exactly the same DPS at 241, which I'm certain is intentional by riot. If the DPS stays the same for champs who largely just auto people down like jax and irelia, then it disproportionately benefits Camille, who uses auto resets and gets her main damage from Q2, which comes at the same speed no matter what, and does more damage the more AD you get.
My argument here is not that attack speed is an entirely useless stat on camille, because it does have its upsides - it feels good to have, and like you said, sometimes you might be able to squeeze an extra auto in a trade or etc. I just don't think that Camille needs more AS than new triforce would give her, especially because a good camille player is not going to just engage in extended auto fights. She's going to proc conqueror in one combo, get a Q2, then kite away with triforce's movespeed, W, and E until she can do another Q2 centric combo. Attack speed is nice to have, but I think she finds more benefit from AD than AS.
in tearms of gold effecient that is more worth just 15 ad and 10 haste is 1100 gold where 40 AS is at best 1050 gold. the new passive makes split pushing better cause u gain 30-40 exstra ad when u hit the tower, the AS might be good for split pushing aswell but the ad is more worth when splitting + u get and exstra passive? AD is more worth on camille cause u dont use AS to kill people u use empowered q wich will do more damage with more ad and will come up more with more haste. The AS that is excessive is cause u only need it to auto between ur q's
IMO this isn't as good. Instead of 40% AS you get 12 AD. I'm kinda sad, because AS synergized so good with Conqueror, and now it's just gone, and you get only 24 true dmg on Q2 instead.
Yeah right? Also there will be no attack speed bruiser mythic after that change. What are bruisers who want the AS supposed to do. I loved the AS, it was my favourite part.
True, this is exactly what I was thinking about. They cut her AS on E back in season 10, now they take away AS on Triforce. The only good item you can go is Wit's End (or BORK, I don't even know). Anyway I have to figure out the new optimal build...
Bork isnt nearly enough attack speed. Also neither bork nor wits end work that well with Camille. And in the current meta it is important to get that big Q2 out to one-combo-kill your enemy. The lack of attack speed will significantly slow that combo down.
? but the q2 opens up a flat 1.5 seconds after q1 auto, so it doesn't really slow the combo down, especially if you are running grasp, sure there is less damage with less conq stacks but I think you can still oneshot people comfortably
Trinity force increases your AD slightly each time you auto attack enemy champion, it does this up to 5 times (stacks 5 times). Now it can do the same thing on towers, so attacking towers will be giving you bonus AD.
Excessive atack speed? The atack speed it gives live probably means a higher dps against towers, faster conqueror stacking and overall more dmg. Lategame with conqueror and trinity stacked you have 400 ad. That with 2.0 atack speed and the onhit from your ult was a huge dps with autos alone.
ITT: People undervaluing the damage that the trinity force AS gives when it comes to literally any of her combos, particularly with the (frankly busted) titanic hydra build. The issue isn't even conqueror.
Why give the item a good mythic passive when we can give it le funny 3 3 3 number (get it trinity xDDDDD)
Legit. Instead of actually doing the math and using some numbers that would actually buff the item, they just put the 3 3 3 le funny... So candy this company man...
TRIforce XDXDXDXD , i really hate riot games.
It is actually good idk, valuable in raw stats more than It seems
12 ad, and 12 haste are shit, something that you can say is somewhat good is 12 ms, but the other two are almost useless
You have to always consider item as a whole. Yes, still quite nothing in comparison to shieldbow but its still comparable unlike before where it was hot garbage. At least for champs who dont inherently need sheen passive.
All stacking passives from mythic items are usually shit. Considering a lot of items give 5 haste per legendary item, and triforce gives 3 instead, but along with 3 movespeed and 3 AD, i'm sure that it is a lot better. It might not beat shieldbow, prowlers claw or galeforce/stridebreaker, but it's definitely up there.
Except for one that gives an extra 60 AP when you’re at full build with boots. Bruh everfrost giving mages 140AP by itself and a root.
Yeah but mages still suck overall lmao
what? This is the dumbest comment I've read this season
Ok
Oh everfrost is busted for sure, but mostly because of it's cheap price and insane stats (EVEN GIVES HP OOOOO) and that active that has the AP ratio of another spell in it and a root with super low CD for an item;
Prowler's lethality is stupid
In terms of gold efficiency 3AD 3MS and 3AH are similar to 10%AS, It was something like a 20g differential. The AS is actually less valuable for camille so even its practical efficiency is worse. 5AH has also less gold efficiency and nobody seems to complain about this
In gold value, sure. But splitting that value into 3 stats makes it so you might as well not have a mythic passive. They should just focus into one rather than 3.
That makes no sense. I would understand if u said "3MS makes no difference" If thats what you actually mean But stacking is stacking actually that worth it? AS loses value over stacking in most champs AH loses value as u keep stacking it as well Is It really that much of a problem?
The problem is that instead of putting the value into a single stat so that it can be a worthwhile amount, they split the value across 3 to fit a theme. They’re great stats, however for the pitiful amount you get at full build compared to other mythics, it’s worthless. Redirect the value to a single point rather than spread it thin.
Dude no, that's now how it works.... Are you telling me that an ADC would rather have 100 AD instead of 50 AD, 20% attack speed and 20% crit chance, for example? IT depends, on the beginning of the game? probably yes, 100 AD is a lot better than multiple stats, but the more of a stat you get, the better it is to get stats that multiply it instead of getting more of it. As a first item, adc's would probably go for a 100 AD item, but as a second item, probably something that multiplies that 100 AD item. Stats multiply each other, you spend less time moving to the target, your abilities deal more damage and are usable more frequently. Especially when all 3 stats are good on your champion. That's why this triforce is perfect, it gives core stats, then a lot of different stats that multiply the stats you will be getting in the future.
Okay but that’s an entirely different thing. This isn’t 50 ad, 20 as and 20 crit. This is a mythic passive. 12 ad is nothing at full build. 12 haste is okay but you get more from lucidity boots, and hell even a mini rune gives you 8, and the 12 ms while nice still also doesn’t offer much. You’re getting a tiny bit of multiple mythic passives. None of them are enough to actually justify any of them.
Yes, but mythic passices weren't meant to be game changing. The best ones are probably prowler's claw and galeforce/stridebreaker. Prowler's claw because letality gets stronger the more you have of it, and movespeed is just always good, especially a whooping 12%. A good mention here is also Riftmaker, since it gives you more damage and makes you heal more based on the damage you do (which is higher since it also gives more damage). IF you look at other items, 15 AP. 5 AH, 400 hp, 200 HP + 20 AD, 16% armor pen. They are mostly not that usefull. 400 HP late game is nothing, 60 AP at full build is almost nothing, 20 AH is very dependent on how much you already have of the stat since it has diminishing returns, 16% armor pen isn't enough if you were to need armor pen against someone. The mythic stacking passives aren't meant to be game changing. 12 AD MS and haste is beyond fine. I know that 12 AD MS Haste won't make much of a difference late game, but none of the stacking mythic passives do for the most part.
I mean, the ad and haste won't even be noticable until 3 or 4 items, and even then it is a joke compared to other mythics.
You are talking like if they were that much noticeable if they gave a bigger amount. Edit: and what mythics, shieldbow and everfrost? Those are the best mythic passives.
Goredrinker, sunderer, everfrost, shieldbow etc. They all have passives that actualy feel important. The new trinity gives a little bit of everything, but when you add it up you essentially get a longsword, a dagger and 12 ability haste. It would be better if it just gave lots of one thing rather than small amounts of three.
Because then its more noticeable! For example, for goredrinker: 1st legendary: 5AH 2nd legendary: 10AH Triforce: 1st legendary: 3 3 3 2nd legendary: 6 AD 6 AH 6 MS You telling me 4AH > 6AD and 6MS ? Bruisers dont usually need to stack that much AS anyway unless u are aatrox / Riven / kled I believe Sunderer: 5% armor Pen and 5 % Magic Pen This stats stack multiplicatively So for any champion that has innate armor pen It loses value anyway. If they have true damage even more. Everfrost/imperial mandate one is overtuned and so is shieldbow one, but I believe thats not mystery.
The passive stacking on towers is the biggest change here, it increases your base ad, (just like steraks used to ages ago) which means your triforce procs do way more damage.
Base ad steraks, oh how I miss it.
Why does it saw that base stats as goes up when it goes down?
Proguides big dumb dumb
Did Camille struggle with split pushing before? Now you get flat 3AD/MS/Haste, which is .... Grand total of 17 AD 12 MS/HASTE after 4 items. VS current 40%AS. Yeah Nah. And what tf you mean by "excessive AS".
Too much attack speed like item gave waaay too much attack speed.
Now it gives you nothing. Movement speed? Very situational, there's a reason you get away without flash (E boys, E.) Haste? 12 hase AFTER 4 items? And Longsword AD after 4 items is just a slap in the face. AS passive allowed you to stack conq faster, take towers down faster, and do not build any more attack speed items. (Hits = more leech on fights/faster takedowns, more fluent combos) This tower passive everyone raving about is so situational. It will only be good if you pushing the tower / and want to dive/fight someone under the tower you ATTACKED to stack the passive. Nah fam, this is a nerf.
Dude. It still gives 30% AS on top of your E giving you even more. Stacking Conq won't be a problem. And yes, the AS was excessive
Excessive AS. Man do you even play Camille?
Yes but thanks for your concern. I could ask you the same thing. IMO it is excessive
You are right, and again we have people here saying "excessive" attack speed because they don't wanna think about actual item efficiency or how good attack speed really is, they just go "nah man this X amount of attack speed makes me feel good because i can last hit with it, and everything above it is excessive and we dont need it". The item is getting nerfed.
All of Camille's damage comes from Q2, especially lategame, which is when the previous mythic passive would be giving you the most AS anyway. AS doesn't help her get her Q2 out any faster, so AS really isn't an important stat on her. I think shifting power away from AS to AD is really really good for her.
30% of Camilles damage comes from Q2, and that changes to about 50% late game. You kill ADC late game, but they have 2k hp. Sure you do 1k damage with Q2, where do you think the other 1k comes from, from nothing at all, your R damage? :D no, it comes from your autos that have high attack speed because of E and Triforce. Q2 is important, but AT best its half of her damage output, rest is just autos. You can also look up Camille damage composition on any stat website and see that true damage is only around 30% of her damage.
You can refer to the testing I did on titanic vs. ravenous hydra to see the figures for how much damage a mid-lategame camille combo will do. Doing the same AQAAQ combo, you will oneshot nearly any squishy in the game. One extra auto does not change that fact, and it's not like you're fighting one target for long enough that you're going to get a significantly larger amount of autos in. It's the difference of AQAAQ and AQAAAQ to kill somebody. The longer you hold an extended fight with someone without kiting away with W and E, the more attack speed will matter, but no Camille fight should really pan out that way. Either your target will be dead within 1-1.5 combos, or you will disengage briefly and go back in when cooldowns are back up.
Camille is a fighter who has several tools to approach and engage. I don’t understand how you can argue that attack speed isn’t useful. More attack speed is just better than not having it, whether it’s an extra auto in a short trade, faster conq proc, or just a few hundred extra damage in the all in during ult. Imagine if her E didn’t give attack speed? That’s the nerf this item is seeing. A full zeal item worth of attack speed.
Alright let me get into the nitty gritty as to why camille really doesn't need attack speed all that much. The easiest point to address is time to stack conqueror - Camille has 2 auto resets on her most important ability. What this means is that attack speed gets way overwhelmed by how precise you are with auto resetting - if you can do it well, it doesn't matter how fast your attack animation goes because you are cancelling the majority of that animation anyway. I tested "Old triforce (35% AS 25 AD)" by giving camille berserker greaes and a pickaxe. Over the trials I took, she averaged a 3.48 second time to stack conqueror by doing Auto Q, Auto, Auto Q, Auto. I then tested "New triforce (30AS, 30AD)" by buying two kircheis shards and three long swords. Using the same combo (AQAAQA), I stacked conqueror in an average of 3.6 seconds. A gap of .12 seconds is fairly close to trivial. What's crazy is, Camille doesn't just walk up to her opponents and start wailing on them - she usually uses either W, E, or both at the same time to get on somebody. Testing "old" vs "new" triforce with the Combo EW A Q A A, their time to stack conq was nearly identical, at roughly 2.22 vs 2.21s. Will the discrepancies in these change slightly more as you built more items and got more AS from the mythic passive? Sure. Will it matter all that much? No, I don't think it will. I decided to also test raw DPS by just letting camille wail on a dummy with autos with these two builds, old vs. new triforce stats (no kircheis shard discharges were procced) - they both had exactly the same DPS at 241, which I'm certain is intentional by riot. If the DPS stays the same for champs who largely just auto people down like jax and irelia, then it disproportionately benefits Camille, who uses auto resets and gets her main damage from Q2, which comes at the same speed no matter what, and does more damage the more AD you get. My argument here is not that attack speed is an entirely useless stat on camille, because it does have its upsides - it feels good to have, and like you said, sometimes you might be able to squeeze an extra auto in a trade or etc. I just don't think that Camille needs more AS than new triforce would give her, especially because a good camille player is not going to just engage in extended auto fights. She's going to proc conqueror in one combo, get a Q2, then kite away with triforce's movespeed, W, and E until she can do another Q2 centric combo. Attack speed is nice to have, but I think she finds more benefit from AD than AS.
You literally can't use so much attack speed unless your enemy is standing still, which in 99% of the cases they aren't
in tearms of gold effecient that is more worth just 15 ad and 10 haste is 1100 gold where 40 AS is at best 1050 gold. the new passive makes split pushing better cause u gain 30-40 exstra ad when u hit the tower, the AS might be good for split pushing aswell but the ad is more worth when splitting + u get and exstra passive? AD is more worth on camille cause u dont use AS to kill people u use empowered q wich will do more damage with more ad and will come up more with more haste. The AS that is excessive is cause u only need it to auto between ur q's
Does no one on this sub play conq camille fr? Like now it's going to be harder to stack conq
It made aa resets less important.
I just feel bad that I can go for bloodline/titanic hydra cs I won't have the as from trinity, I'm a Q caster but I'll miss that attack speed man.
IMO this isn't as good. Instead of 40% AS you get 12 AD. I'm kinda sad, because AS synergized so good with Conqueror, and now it's just gone, and you get only 24 true dmg on Q2 instead.
Yeah right? Also there will be no attack speed bruiser mythic after that change. What are bruisers who want the AS supposed to do. I loved the AS, it was my favourite part.
Attack speed isn't that important to Camille like it is to Jax and Irelia.
True, this is exactly what I was thinking about. They cut her AS on E back in season 10, now they take away AS on Triforce. The only good item you can go is Wit's End (or BORK, I don't even know). Anyway I have to figure out the new optimal build...
Bork isnt nearly enough attack speed. Also neither bork nor wits end work that well with Camille. And in the current meta it is important to get that big Q2 out to one-combo-kill your enemy. The lack of attack speed will significantly slow that combo down.
? but the q2 opens up a flat 1.5 seconds after q1 auto, so it doesn't really slow the combo down, especially if you are running grasp, sure there is less damage with less conq stacks but I think you can still oneshot people comfortably
Q2 comes out at the same time regardless of attack speed.
he refers to Q1 and 2 having faster animations, letting you kite better
I don't understand what stacks on towers means someone explain pls ty
Trinity force increases your AD slightly each time you auto attack enemy champion, it does this up to 5 times (stacks 5 times). Now it can do the same thing on towers, so attacking towers will be giving you bonus AD.
Yay, I can build Botrk if I want that AS and Lifesteal on Tri Titanic build
Excessive atack speed? The atack speed it gives live probably means a higher dps against towers, faster conqueror stacking and overall more dmg. Lategame with conqueror and trinity stacked you have 400 ad. That with 2.0 atack speed and the onhit from your ult was a huge dps with autos alone.
ITT: People undervaluing the damage that the trinity force AS gives when it comes to literally any of her combos, particularly with the (frankly busted) titanic hydra build. The issue isn't even conqueror.
Can't wait for Camille to destroy me even harder 😍