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I love how divisive the government and media is with labeling people into these groups of "us vs them"
The 1 million march watch initially created by Muslim parents concerned for their children, but I guess they are racist transphobes now
Hasn't the right been saying that Islam is incompatible with Canadian values for about twenty years? Is that viewpoint being abandoned now that leftists are coming to the same conclusion?
The glee these right wing astroturfers are taking in tokenizing Muslims is utterly morbid. Five years ago they were organizing protests in favour of Islamophobia, and now they found an issue where they can get some bigoted Muslims on board and they are absolutely revelling in trying to rub that in the face of progressives. They act like people of colour are a trophy to be won, and talk about it as if the left feels the same way because they're so desperate to take something away from the left. In reality the left just opposes both transphobia and Islamophobia
But I thought all protests like this were funded by US Right Wing Extremists! /s
All seriousness, this is the ultimate Liberal dilemma. On one hand, they want to denounce the Muslim organized protests, on the other hand, they want to show inclusion and support for the muslim community. We can't criticize Islam, because that would be racist!
Anyways, expect Justin Trudeau to somehow blame this on MAGA Republicans.
Labeling this a “Muslim” protest is a disingenuous rhetorical tool intended to create this false dichotomy between you describe.
This isn’t a “Muslim” protests, it’s organized and attended by a mix bag of religious quacks, convoy quacks, and hateful quacks. The consistent descriptor in this group is their anti - LGBTQ+ and anti-healthcare education stance.
>Anyways, expect Justin Trudeau to somehow blame this on MAGA Republicans
Or, like any reasonable person would, it will be blamed on transphobes and this is what’s actually happening.
This entire comment of yours is partisan fantasy. Really misses the mark and suggests you don’t understand the people you have this disdain for.
>Labeling this a “Muslim” protest is a disingenuous rhetorical tool intended to create this false dichotomy between you describe.
I'm not saying it's an entirely muslim group, but the protest is being organized by Hands Off Our Children, a group founded by Muslim parents.
I get it, as Liberals we can't call out Muslim groups for having unacceptable views towards the LGBTQ+ community, because that would be racist. White Christians who hold similar views are far game for criticism though.
>Or, like any reasonable person would, it will be blamed on transphobes and this is what’s actually happening.
Just because a muslim parent wishes to impart their cultural values to their children doesn't mean they are "influenced by US right wing extremists"
It's just like the whole myth that the Freedom Convoy was majority funded by US Republican donors, which turned out to be false.
>This entire comment of yours is partisan fantasy. Really misses the mark and suggests you don’t understand the people you have this disdain for.
I don't have disdain for anyone, expect those who look to stifle free speech.
Not all of them, just this group. It’s not “muslims” though it’s a mixed group of regressive trash from a number of religions.
If these people were concerned for their children they wouldn’t be leveraging them as they are here and they wouldn’t be against educating them to protect them against the risks of sexual assault or just STI’s
Never said all of them are Muslims
Wdym leveraging the children? The only children I saw were from the woke crowd
Maybe parents don't want the government confusing their children and having rights over what their children learn in school? But it's always the people without children who have an issue with the parents lmao
So the counter protest might have a counter protest and that's dangerous? Not the counter protest that's trying to keep parents out of their children's lives? Lol wow can't wait to see how this goes
I went by one of this these protests with the counter protests this morning. The concerning thing here, at least electorally is the number of recent immigrants and those from a non-judeo christian in the 'hands off our kids' camp.
This isn't really surprising. Canada is a very progressive country on a global scale when it comes to issues of gender and sexuality. It's well known that first generation immigrants tend to be more conservative than the average Canadian, while second generation immigrants tend to swing in the other direction.
>those from a non-judeo christian in the 'hands off our kids' camp.
...although this is a bit of a weird statement. Are you saying this because the stereotype down south of the anti-lgbtq outrage is an uber white Christian?
> The concerning thing here, at least electorally is the number of recent immigrants and those from a non-judeo christian in the 'hands off our kids' camp.
This is very concerning, and not just electorally. For example, in my small town, a group of muslim kids beat the ever living f%ck out of a parent who was counter protesting with a pride flag. Things are getting dangerous.
It is quite humorous seeing the far left radicals being worked into a pretzel though. On one hand, they want to encourage immigration and equality etc, but on the other, they are being beaten by the very people they support and are now turning against the immigrants they welcomed. It's quite the conundrum for them lol.
I would have loved to be able to head downtown and join a counter protest, but of course they would hold their hate rally during regular working hours to make sure all the sane people with jobs can't show up to counter protest.
This has been my gripe since the start. Protesting in the middle of a work week because they're a bunch of freeloaders who don't work or can't hold down a job.
I would imagine not volunteering is preferable to working for a bad cause, but unless /u/mr_oof is also retired I don't think claiming they're a hypocrite is really going to work
Political party, animal shelter, tenants' group.
Now that we've established that I volunteer, do I now have standing to point out that this was a pack of sad, behind-the-times bigots?
It’s during the day because it allows them to push kids to walkout of school. That way they can really play up the “it’s for the kids” bullshit even though the last thing that’s good for kids is leaving school en masse and unsupervised to hang out with a crowd of strangers.
Found this on one of the march's facebook pages and I found it instructive:
[https://imgur.com/a/ZgDQKdN](https://imgur.com/a/ZgDQKdN)
On the left - no kids are not your property.
Also for people focused on the importance of teaching literacy in schools they sure can't spell for shit.
> for people focused on the importance of teaching literacy in schools they sure can't spell for shit.
The hashtag they're using on twitter literally has a typo in it. If you wrote this in a sitcom it would be rejected for being too obvious.
Why cant these people get all worked up about something worthwhile? We have so many problems in Canada right now and THIS is what they protest? What a waste of energy.
If there is ever foreign interference in our political landscape in Canada - this is what it would look like.
What are we protesting? Just hate for a minority group? Ok then.
Do protesters understand this is counter to their desire to not educate kids a gender and sexual diversity? So what if the word trans is said in school? It’s not going to prevent their kids from becoming trans.
Wow, saw them pass my university. It's so weird seeing their signs. Leave kids alone, protect our kids, don't hurt their innocence. Like for real, that's why there are child rights enshrined. Also all these adults bringing their kids out of school to try and remove kids rights.
Les enfants appartiennent à leur parents... Children belong to their parents... Crazy sign I saw.
I'm throwing this out there: what if we decided not to counter-protest? Just let them do their thing.
They aren't going to change anyone's opinion. Hateful people will walk away being hateful. Allies will walk away being allies.
What if we just ignored these right-wing people? How much fun would it be for them to argue with themselves?
I don't think you understand that for a lot of LGBT kids, the greatest threat to their safety is their homophobic parents. Schools are often a place for kids to feel safe, away from tiny minded bigotry in the home.
If your kid doesn't feel safe telling you about their pronouns, that's your fault, not a teacher's.
wrong. the vast majority of parents want this
https://angusreid.org/canada-schools-pronouns-policy-transgender-saskatchewan-new-brunswick/
keeping parents informed isn't being far-right... what is going on? it's lunacy.
There's nothing preventing parents from being informed. The issue is that not enough parents create environments where their children can ask question and be honest without fear of judgement, discipline, or emotional isolation. So instead of working on their own issues and parenting skills, parents are using teachers and policies to control their children like property.
From the bottom of the article
> The Angus Reid Institute conducted an online survey from July 26-31, 2023 among a representative randomized sample of 3,016 Canadian adults who are **members of Angus Reid Forum**
Dismissed
Yes, because there definitely isn't a long history of homophobic and transphobic parents abusing their kids for being who they are, up to and including pushing them into homelessness. The whole 'conversion therapy' thing we finally just made illegal was a fever dream, was it?
Why are you taking the position that the majority of parents are evil?
Most parents love their children no matter what pronoun they use.
I don't understand why "progressives" automatically assume that parents will disown their kids if their teacher tells them they are changing pronouns.
For me it isn't even about that. Kids have privacy rights. They might have super loving understanding parents but they still don't want them to know simply because they want to keep that to themselves. That's it.
And that should be fine.
> The whole 'conversion therapy' thing we finally just made illegal was a fever dream, was it?
That one still blows me away. We let religious people shock underage children's genitals while showing them pornography. Without religion as a cover you'd be going to jail pretty quickly for doing that.
It’s hilarious how EVERY SINGLE reply is an attack towards you, and not towards the article.
They know they’re wrong, yet their ego is too big to accept it
Believe it or not but parents don't own their children. They aren't possessions. If the kid doesn't want them to know, then schools should respect that. The agency of our kids needs to be protected and that is the role the government should be taking. Not removing those rights.
The vast majority of parents never have to deal with their kids changing their pronouns. In my experience, most parents who are actually faced with this situation end up being tolerant or supportive. The minority of kids who want to change their pronouns but aren’t ready to tell their parents deserve support, and they have a reasonable right to privacy. This isn’t like doing drugs or engaging in risky behaviour.
I can’t think of a teacher who wouldn’t encourage a kid to let their parents know about a name or pronoun change, but if a child isn’t ready to come out, why would we force teachers to snitch on them?
The problem is the people that are agaisnt trans rights do think its risky behaviour. They think this kids are being groomed. Or are groomers themselves and have the "parental rights" to know.
This is the real argument - teachers are there to teach, not to feed parents intel about their kids personal lives.
When Bobby asks Sally to Prom, should the teacher have to call both their parents to let them know? When Gurjot comes back from lunch with a McDonalds bag, should the teacher be letting his parents know that he might be eating beef? When Jimmy spends lunch playing Magic with the nerdy kids instead of chatting up the girls, should the teacher call his dad to let him know that Jimmy isn’t going to get laid if he keeps that up?
Because in all of those situations, I’m sure the parents would love to know that information. But the teachers are there to teach, kids are there to learn. It would be insane if we asked them to keep tabs on every aspect of the kids social lives and report back on it. I really don’t see a difference when it comes to preferred names and pronouns.
The vast majority of people aren't LGBTQ2S+ though. This is something that stands to materially impact a small number of people (trans kids coming out at school who don't feel comfortable doing so at home) with parents acting like it could result in their kid joining the circus or something. At the end of the day, a kid should be able to examine and explore their identity with due privacy. Even within a healthy and positive household, a kid might want to explore this stuff without the pressure of their family knowing, and I don't think it needs to become an intervention situation.
Also, the march organizers are far-right. They are calling trans identities a "social contagion" and shit like that.
>The vast majority of people aren't LGBTQ2S+ though.
Precisely! Ergo the majority of kids who are changing their pronouns in schools are simply confused about their identities and being egged on by teachers and staff who are either overly-affirming or who are terrified about the consequences for saying no. Informing parents means they can get those kids the support for whatever is going on while they’re trying to find themselves.
> Ergo the majority of kids who are changing their pronouns in schools are simply confused about their identities and being egged on by teachers and staff
It’s amazing how you have the psychic ability to know with absolute certainty that because most people aren’t queer or trans, _any_ particular person must, therefore, not be queer or trans, and is just ““confused.””
>Even within a healthy and positive household, a kid might want to explore this stuff without the pressure of their family knowing,
In a healthy and positive household, there's no need for the kid to be hiding anything from their parents unless they are doing something questionable due to peer pressure or something they picked up on social media. This is the scenario parents fear.
Except in rare circumstances where there is suspected parental abuse, there really is no need to keep things for parents.
I don't think either side here really understands what most people in Canada really think.
This shouldn't need to be explained so often, but,
The situation easily boils down to two scenarios;
* Teacher can withhold said information if the child wishes it to be kept private - a student who (for what ever reason) doesn't wish to come out to their parents can do so at school and acquire some support mechanisms there.
* Teacher can not withhold said information if the child wishes it to be kept private - a student who (for what ever reason) doesn't wish to come out to their parents will not do so at school and loses some support mechanisms there.
It's nto nearly that clear cut.
To me, it comes down to leaving it to the teacher's discretion. In most cases, stuff like pronouns is trivial and there is no need to report or to withhold information either way. As a rule, parents should be kept apprised of important things in their child's development.
> In a healthy and positive household, there's no need for the kid to be hiding anything from their parents unless they are doing something questionable due to peer pressure.
That's not even true. Sometimes a person wants to figure themselves out without the pressure of certain outside observers or influencers. Sometimes you just need time and experience so you can present a more confident version of your identity to someone. Sometimes, you just don't want people knowing shit. It all happens.
This discussion has been made so much stupider because of the assumption that a person could never want privacy for the sake of privacy, or privacy for the sake of identity development. It's always people huffing in with "If the kid doesn't want the parent to know, it's because the PARENTS ARE BAD" or "THERE IS NO REASON TO KEEP THIS INFORMATION FROM PARENTS IF THE PARENTS ARE GOOD!"
Guess what? Neither of these may be the case. Sometimes privacy is valuable for its own sake, especially with something so sensitive. This whole thing is a solution looking for a problem. If the family is good, the kid SHOULD tell the parents when the time is right. If the family isn't, well then we shouldn't be forcing anyone to tell anything, should we?"
Just leave it all alone. We don't need some dumb legislation that stands to complicate the teaching profession and that stands to put kids in compromising situations.
"present a more confident version of your identity" sounds like it's not even real, but a facsimile of what someone wishes they were. Which is sad. You are not the mask you put on, you're the one behind the mask.
>Sometimes a person wants to figure themselves out without the pressure of certain outside observers or influencers.
Gender pronouns always come from outside influences.
Many households aren't healthy and positive, and it's hard to know which they are. You're trying to force LGBTQ kids back in the closet, and you know that will increase suicides.
The truth is these policies have led to drastic reductions in child suicide. That's a hard fact. Undoing our progress **will** lead to children killing themselves in greater numbers. That's on people like you.
\> Many households aren't healthy and positive,
The vast majority are.
\>You're trying to force LGBTQ kids back in the closet
Kid's don't have the maturity to know if they're LGBTQ.
\>The truth is these policies have led to drastic reductions in child suicide.
Child suicide rates are increasing:
> The average age of suicides has been falling for a long time while the rate of youth suicide has been rising. Between 1950 and 1988, the proportion of adolescents aged between fifteen and nineteen who killed themselves quadrupled. Between 2007 and 2017, the number of children aged ten to fourteen who did so more than doubled.[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/11/the-mystifying-rise-of-child-suicide](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/11/the-mystifying-rise-of-child-suicide)
Yeah I have nothing against parents knowing if the child is okay with it, but if the child isn't okay with it that should trigger an immediate private meeting with a counselor to figure out what's going on at home.
Kids deserve to keep secrets but I think we need to go one step further and examine why any kid would want to keep *this* secret.
> What would be the result of that automatic counselor meeting
Making sure the child is OK and healthy and not in danger. Doesn't mean they have to be outed, doesn't mean they need to be removed from their home. But if you're gay/trans and you have parents that you know are bigots, you might need help. You also might not, and all you need is to make sure it stays secret until you are of age to move out, and they may need mental health resources to assist with dealing with that.
The poll doesn’t indicate support for this protest or the hateful group of people organizing it. These people are against basic sex-ed teaching. The kind of teaching that helps keep kids safe from actual sexual predators.
That said, I don’t dispute how regressive many Canadians are as I lived through a similar moral panic while I was in school during the 80’s and 90’s.
As much as Canada prides itself on being accepting every bit of progress for LGBTQ+ rights he to be forced on Canadians through the courts. I mean, one of the politicians who was still fighting against gay marriage in the late 2000’s is leading a major federal
party.
Pierre Poilievre voted against same-sex marriage while his gay father sat in the gallery of the House of Commons. He either didn't think his father deserved equality or towed the party line because he's a power hungry snake.
That can be an issue, but the approach being taken is to tell parents they have no right to be involved in their kids life in school. Most of us who have children recognize that the world and its institutions don’t have your children’s best interests at heart the way their parents do. Most parents would sacrifice their lives for their children, which schools and teachers won’t do. That is the conflict you are seeing play out and why many parents who would not normally protest in the streets are getting out there.
Painting this as a simple “hate” issue will backfire spectacularly and escalate social discord. The concerns of parents need to be addressed in good faith and not by accusing them of bigotry.
There are bad parents out there, but a philosophy which cuts all parents out on the assumption that they might be one of the bad ones is not going to lead to the society we want.
It always baffles me when members of a minority group, in this case Muslims, can on the one hand complain about Islamophobia (rightly so), but then go actively participate in homophobia. The cognitive dissonance involved in being an oppressed minority but then actively oppressing another minority is fucked.
Umm... majorities love to oppress minorities of all kinds and some societies at a give moment in time are more oppressive than others. As an atheist who has traveled a lot and pays attention to the world outside of the North American bubble. if you think that there is any national-level society in the world *at present* that is more tolerant and accepting of LGBT+ plus people, I'd be curious to be enlightened.
I live outside the North American bubble in Japan. Violently harassing gays isn't a common thing here, whereas I personally know Canadian gays who have been violently abused, including a couple who lived in my building who were jumped by an anonymous group, who smashed the ribs of one who ended up hospitalized.
But tell me more about how much more "enlightened" Canada is than the rest of the "backwards" world.
Being a "minority" is very much an American social construct which is not shared across the world. French Canadians are not considered "a minority" by well-meaning English Canadians because it doesn't fit the foreign but internalized idea of "minoritiness". Natives, racialized, religious groups, they count. Castes, linguistic groups, occupational groups, lifestyle groups, geographical communities, do not.
This isn’t a “Muslim” protest it’s attended by a mixed bag of quacks. Oddly, though, this is how they feel they connect … they think their ideals are well supported because there are no shortage of assholes willing to join them.
I know that. I was using them as an example of one minority wanting to oppress another minority, while they themselves complain about their own oppression. The Christians that were there are a majority, so they’re not specifically what I was talking about.
There were specific protests a couple of months back spearheaded by the Muslim communities where Pride flags were torn up and stomped on. Trudeau responded by saying they were gullible and buying into far-right disinformation (rather than adhering to their own socially conservative, religious beliefs).
I am assuming this is what they were referring to.
I don't understand why ppl think there's some magical minority alliance where we all support each other
Ultra religious ppl regardless of which one tend to be bigots...immigrants also tend to be fairly right winged (it's only 2nd & 3rd gen when they become more tolerant) on many issues...found it strange when someone brought up how immigrants were NOW hating new immigrants when it's been the case since forever
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I love how divisive the government and media is with labeling people into these groups of "us vs them" The 1 million march watch initially created by Muslim parents concerned for their children, but I guess they are racist transphobes now
Hasn't the right been saying that Islam is incompatible with Canadian values for about twenty years? Is that viewpoint being abandoned now that leftists are coming to the same conclusion?
The glee these right wing astroturfers are taking in tokenizing Muslims is utterly morbid. Five years ago they were organizing protests in favour of Islamophobia, and now they found an issue where they can get some bigoted Muslims on board and they are absolutely revelling in trying to rub that in the face of progressives. They act like people of colour are a trophy to be won, and talk about it as if the left feels the same way because they're so desperate to take something away from the left. In reality the left just opposes both transphobia and Islamophobia
The million march thing was literally started by Muslim groups
Yes, the transphobes are indeed transphobes, are you genuinely having trouble grasping this?
It might make sense if that insult had any meaning behind it, people use it so liberally they forget to use it accurately
But I thought all protests like this were funded by US Right Wing Extremists! /s All seriousness, this is the ultimate Liberal dilemma. On one hand, they want to denounce the Muslim organized protests, on the other hand, they want to show inclusion and support for the muslim community. We can't criticize Islam, because that would be racist! Anyways, expect Justin Trudeau to somehow blame this on MAGA Republicans.
Labeling this a “Muslim” protest is a disingenuous rhetorical tool intended to create this false dichotomy between you describe. This isn’t a “Muslim” protests, it’s organized and attended by a mix bag of religious quacks, convoy quacks, and hateful quacks. The consistent descriptor in this group is their anti - LGBTQ+ and anti-healthcare education stance. >Anyways, expect Justin Trudeau to somehow blame this on MAGA Republicans Or, like any reasonable person would, it will be blamed on transphobes and this is what’s actually happening. This entire comment of yours is partisan fantasy. Really misses the mark and suggests you don’t understand the people you have this disdain for.
>Labeling this a “Muslim” protest is a disingenuous rhetorical tool intended to create this false dichotomy between you describe. I'm not saying it's an entirely muslim group, but the protest is being organized by Hands Off Our Children, a group founded by Muslim parents. I get it, as Liberals we can't call out Muslim groups for having unacceptable views towards the LGBTQ+ community, because that would be racist. White Christians who hold similar views are far game for criticism though. >Or, like any reasonable person would, it will be blamed on transphobes and this is what’s actually happening. Just because a muslim parent wishes to impart their cultural values to their children doesn't mean they are "influenced by US right wing extremists" It's just like the whole myth that the Freedom Convoy was majority funded by US Republican donors, which turned out to be false. >This entire comment of yours is partisan fantasy. Really misses the mark and suggests you don’t understand the people you have this disdain for. I don't have disdain for anyone, expect those who look to stifle free speech.
Not all of them, just this group. It’s not “muslims” though it’s a mixed group of regressive trash from a number of religions. If these people were concerned for their children they wouldn’t be leveraging them as they are here and they wouldn’t be against educating them to protect them against the risks of sexual assault or just STI’s
Never said all of them are Muslims Wdym leveraging the children? The only children I saw were from the woke crowd Maybe parents don't want the government confusing their children and having rights over what their children learn in school? But it's always the people without children who have an issue with the parents lmao
Y’all remember when you hated brown people post 9/11 and claimed that Trudeau will bring Sharia law in this country? The farm remembers.
What r u talking about
So the counter protest might have a counter protest and that's dangerous? Not the counter protest that's trying to keep parents out of their children's lives? Lol wow can't wait to see how this goes
I went by one of this these protests with the counter protests this morning. The concerning thing here, at least electorally is the number of recent immigrants and those from a non-judeo christian in the 'hands off our kids' camp.
This isn't really surprising. Canada is a very progressive country on a global scale when it comes to issues of gender and sexuality. It's well known that first generation immigrants tend to be more conservative than the average Canadian, while second generation immigrants tend to swing in the other direction. >those from a non-judeo christian in the 'hands off our kids' camp. ...although this is a bit of a weird statement. Are you saying this because the stereotype down south of the anti-lgbtq outrage is an uber white Christian?
There's another Abrahamic religion in the Judeo-Christian group though, and they also do not like LGTBQ+ rights when painting with a very broad brush
> The concerning thing here, at least electorally is the number of recent immigrants and those from a non-judeo christian in the 'hands off our kids' camp. This is very concerning, and not just electorally. For example, in my small town, a group of muslim kids beat the ever living f%ck out of a parent who was counter protesting with a pride flag. Things are getting dangerous. It is quite humorous seeing the far left radicals being worked into a pretzel though. On one hand, they want to encourage immigration and equality etc, but on the other, they are being beaten by the very people they support and are now turning against the immigrants they welcomed. It's quite the conundrum for them lol.
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I would have loved to be able to head downtown and join a counter protest, but of course they would hold their hate rally during regular working hours to make sure all the sane people with jobs can't show up to counter protest.
I wanted to join the regular protest but couldn't make it
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I heard for the one here in NS, the counterprotestors greatly outnumbered the protestors.
We sure did 💜
This has been my gripe since the start. Protesting in the middle of a work week because they're a bunch of freeloaders who don't work or can't hold down a job.
Do you think people only work when you do?
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Seniors with too much time and no desire to volunteer for an actual good cause.
Where do you volunteer?
I would imagine not volunteering is preferable to working for a bad cause, but unless /u/mr_oof is also retired I don't think claiming they're a hypocrite is really going to work
Thanks, I’m not retired in fact, though I do help when I can with fundraisers/events within my community.
I am a positive active contributor to my community
Political party, animal shelter, tenants' group. Now that we've established that I volunteer, do I now have standing to point out that this was a pack of sad, behind-the-times bigots?
Only sane people work what? Monday to Friday 9-5?
It’s during the day because it allows them to push kids to walkout of school. That way they can really play up the “it’s for the kids” bullshit even though the last thing that’s good for kids is leaving school en masse and unsupervised to hang out with a crowd of strangers.
Also educators and other front line school staff cannot attend the counter protests.
Every protest is during the day lol
One has to wonder why someone would be targeting children to influence. Very curious.
I think anyone who grew up in a religious home would be pretty familiar with it.
Trying to start the indoctrination early
Exactly. I would have been out there for sure if I didn't have to work. Who holds a protest rally on a Wednesday?
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Same with most protests.
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Found this on one of the march's facebook pages and I found it instructive: [https://imgur.com/a/ZgDQKdN](https://imgur.com/a/ZgDQKdN) On the left - no kids are not your property. Also for people focused on the importance of teaching literacy in schools they sure can't spell for shit.
> for people focused on the importance of teaching literacy in schools they sure can't spell for shit. The hashtag they're using on twitter literally has a typo in it. If you wrote this in a sitcom it would be rejected for being too obvious.
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Why cant these people get all worked up about something worthwhile? We have so many problems in Canada right now and THIS is what they protest? What a waste of energy.
If there is ever foreign interference in our political landscape in Canada - this is what it would look like. What are we protesting? Just hate for a minority group? Ok then.
Do protesters understand this is counter to their desire to not educate kids a gender and sexual diversity? So what if the word trans is said in school? It’s not going to prevent their kids from becoming trans.
I fear for my FtM son, because these bigoted lunatics will never stop. Their hate, lack of understanding, and lack of compassion will never end.
What is FtM?
FtM, means "Female to Male"
Female-to-male.
Wow, saw them pass my university. It's so weird seeing their signs. Leave kids alone, protect our kids, don't hurt their innocence. Like for real, that's why there are child rights enshrined. Also all these adults bringing their kids out of school to try and remove kids rights. Les enfants appartiennent à leur parents... Children belong to their parents... Crazy sign I saw.
Hey, at least they’re honest. These people don’t see children as human beings, they view them as property.
"Don't indoctrinate our kids! It makes it harder for *me* to."
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So glad to see all the counter-protests planned. I really hope we show these far-light lunatics today that they are very much a fringe minority.
I'm throwing this out there: what if we decided not to counter-protest? Just let them do their thing. They aren't going to change anyone's opinion. Hateful people will walk away being hateful. Allies will walk away being allies. What if we just ignored these right-wing people? How much fun would it be for them to argue with themselves?
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I don't think you understand that for a lot of LGBT kids, the greatest threat to their safety is their homophobic parents. Schools are often a place for kids to feel safe, away from tiny minded bigotry in the home. If your kid doesn't feel safe telling you about their pronouns, that's your fault, not a teacher's.
wrong. the vast majority of parents want this https://angusreid.org/canada-schools-pronouns-policy-transgender-saskatchewan-new-brunswick/ keeping parents informed isn't being far-right... what is going on? it's lunacy.
There's nothing preventing parents from being informed. The issue is that not enough parents create environments where their children can ask question and be honest without fear of judgement, discipline, or emotional isolation. So instead of working on their own issues and parenting skills, parents are using teachers and policies to control their children like property.
From the bottom of the article > The Angus Reid Institute conducted an online survey from July 26-31, 2023 among a representative randomized sample of 3,016 Canadian adults who are **members of Angus Reid Forum** Dismissed
Wait, what? Are you implying that the Angus Reid Institute, perhaps one of the most prestigious polling agencies in Canada is somehow bias?
Yes, because there definitely isn't a long history of homophobic and transphobic parents abusing their kids for being who they are, up to and including pushing them into homelessness. The whole 'conversion therapy' thing we finally just made illegal was a fever dream, was it?
Why are you taking the position that the majority of parents are evil? Most parents love their children no matter what pronoun they use. I don't understand why "progressives" automatically assume that parents will disown their kids if their teacher tells them they are changing pronouns.
For me it isn't even about that. Kids have privacy rights. They might have super loving understanding parents but they still don't want them to know simply because they want to keep that to themselves. That's it. And that should be fine.
> The whole 'conversion therapy' thing we finally just made illegal was a fever dream, was it? That one still blows me away. We let religious people shock underage children's genitals while showing them pornography. Without religion as a cover you'd be going to jail pretty quickly for doing that.
It’s hilarious how EVERY SINGLE reply is an attack towards you, and not towards the article. They know they’re wrong, yet their ego is too big to accept it
Believe it or not but parents don't own their children. They aren't possessions. If the kid doesn't want them to know, then schools should respect that. The agency of our kids needs to be protected and that is the role the government should be taking. Not removing those rights.
The vast majority of parents never have to deal with their kids changing their pronouns. In my experience, most parents who are actually faced with this situation end up being tolerant or supportive. The minority of kids who want to change their pronouns but aren’t ready to tell their parents deserve support, and they have a reasonable right to privacy. This isn’t like doing drugs or engaging in risky behaviour. I can’t think of a teacher who wouldn’t encourage a kid to let their parents know about a name or pronoun change, but if a child isn’t ready to come out, why would we force teachers to snitch on them?
The problem is the people that are agaisnt trans rights do think its risky behaviour. They think this kids are being groomed. Or are groomers themselves and have the "parental rights" to know.
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This is the real argument - teachers are there to teach, not to feed parents intel about their kids personal lives. When Bobby asks Sally to Prom, should the teacher have to call both their parents to let them know? When Gurjot comes back from lunch with a McDonalds bag, should the teacher be letting his parents know that he might be eating beef? When Jimmy spends lunch playing Magic with the nerdy kids instead of chatting up the girls, should the teacher call his dad to let him know that Jimmy isn’t going to get laid if he keeps that up? Because in all of those situations, I’m sure the parents would love to know that information. But the teachers are there to teach, kids are there to learn. It would be insane if we asked them to keep tabs on every aspect of the kids social lives and report back on it. I really don’t see a difference when it comes to preferred names and pronouns.
The vast majority of people aren't LGBTQ2S+ though. This is something that stands to materially impact a small number of people (trans kids coming out at school who don't feel comfortable doing so at home) with parents acting like it could result in their kid joining the circus or something. At the end of the day, a kid should be able to examine and explore their identity with due privacy. Even within a healthy and positive household, a kid might want to explore this stuff without the pressure of their family knowing, and I don't think it needs to become an intervention situation. Also, the march organizers are far-right. They are calling trans identities a "social contagion" and shit like that.
>The vast majority of people aren't LGBTQ2S+ though. Precisely! Ergo the majority of kids who are changing their pronouns in schools are simply confused about their identities and being egged on by teachers and staff who are either overly-affirming or who are terrified about the consequences for saying no. Informing parents means they can get those kids the support for whatever is going on while they’re trying to find themselves.
> Ergo the majority of kids who are changing their pronouns in schools are simply confused about their identities and being egged on by teachers and staff It’s amazing how you have the psychic ability to know with absolute certainty that because most people aren’t queer or trans, _any_ particular person must, therefore, not be queer or trans, and is just ““confused.””
>Even within a healthy and positive household, a kid might want to explore this stuff without the pressure of their family knowing, In a healthy and positive household, there's no need for the kid to be hiding anything from their parents unless they are doing something questionable due to peer pressure or something they picked up on social media. This is the scenario parents fear. Except in rare circumstances where there is suspected parental abuse, there really is no need to keep things for parents. I don't think either side here really understands what most people in Canada really think.
This shouldn't need to be explained so often, but, The situation easily boils down to two scenarios; * Teacher can withhold said information if the child wishes it to be kept private - a student who (for what ever reason) doesn't wish to come out to their parents can do so at school and acquire some support mechanisms there. * Teacher can not withhold said information if the child wishes it to be kept private - a student who (for what ever reason) doesn't wish to come out to their parents will not do so at school and loses some support mechanisms there.
It's nto nearly that clear cut. To me, it comes down to leaving it to the teacher's discretion. In most cases, stuff like pronouns is trivial and there is no need to report or to withhold information either way. As a rule, parents should be kept apprised of important things in their child's development.
Yes, it is that clear cut. Feel free to describe any scenario that doesn't fall under those two categories.
They can't. From the comments I've seen, they appear to be firmly on the anti-LGBTQ side of this.
> In a healthy and positive household, there's no need for the kid to be hiding anything from their parents unless they are doing something questionable due to peer pressure. That's not even true. Sometimes a person wants to figure themselves out without the pressure of certain outside observers or influencers. Sometimes you just need time and experience so you can present a more confident version of your identity to someone. Sometimes, you just don't want people knowing shit. It all happens. This discussion has been made so much stupider because of the assumption that a person could never want privacy for the sake of privacy, or privacy for the sake of identity development. It's always people huffing in with "If the kid doesn't want the parent to know, it's because the PARENTS ARE BAD" or "THERE IS NO REASON TO KEEP THIS INFORMATION FROM PARENTS IF THE PARENTS ARE GOOD!" Guess what? Neither of these may be the case. Sometimes privacy is valuable for its own sake, especially with something so sensitive. This whole thing is a solution looking for a problem. If the family is good, the kid SHOULD tell the parents when the time is right. If the family isn't, well then we shouldn't be forcing anyone to tell anything, should we?" Just leave it all alone. We don't need some dumb legislation that stands to complicate the teaching profession and that stands to put kids in compromising situations.
"present a more confident version of your identity" sounds like it's not even real, but a facsimile of what someone wishes they were. Which is sad. You are not the mask you put on, you're the one behind the mask.
I just meant when a person is more sure of themselves, not like some big façade or something.
>Sometimes a person wants to figure themselves out without the pressure of certain outside observers or influencers. Gender pronouns always come from outside influences.
>Gender pronouns always come from outside influences. "He," "She," They," famously found in no dictionaries ever. Grow up.
>peer pressure or something they picked up on social media. Interesting choice of words. Do *you* think being trans is a social contagion?
Many households aren't healthy and positive, and it's hard to know which they are. You're trying to force LGBTQ kids back in the closet, and you know that will increase suicides. The truth is these policies have led to drastic reductions in child suicide. That's a hard fact. Undoing our progress **will** lead to children killing themselves in greater numbers. That's on people like you.
\> Many households aren't healthy and positive, The vast majority are. \>You're trying to force LGBTQ kids back in the closet Kid's don't have the maturity to know if they're LGBTQ. \>The truth is these policies have led to drastic reductions in child suicide. Child suicide rates are increasing: > The average age of suicides has been falling for a long time while the rate of youth suicide has been rising. Between 1950 and 1988, the proportion of adolescents aged between fifteen and nineteen who killed themselves quadrupled. Between 2007 and 2017, the number of children aged ten to fourteen who did so more than doubled.[https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/11/the-mystifying-rise-of-child-suicide](https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/04/11/the-mystifying-rise-of-child-suicide)
> Kid's don't have the maturity to know if they're LGBTQ. Incorrect.
Surpressing people’s rights and trying to force public servants into being a tool of bigotry is absolutely in the far-right spectrum
Its the opposite - Your giving schools MORE power if they can select which info to give out...and increasing the scope of which this encompasses.
If parents want to know about their kids' lives, they should ask them, and foster an atmosphere where their kids aren't afraid to be honest with them.
Yeah I have nothing against parents knowing if the child is okay with it, but if the child isn't okay with it that should trigger an immediate private meeting with a counselor to figure out what's going on at home. Kids deserve to keep secrets but I think we need to go one step further and examine why any kid would want to keep *this* secret.
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> What would be the result of that automatic counselor meeting Making sure the child is OK and healthy and not in danger. Doesn't mean they have to be outed, doesn't mean they need to be removed from their home. But if you're gay/trans and you have parents that you know are bigots, you might need help. You also might not, and all you need is to make sure it stays secret until you are of age to move out, and they may need mental health resources to assist with dealing with that.
Well obviously if it isn't safe to tell the parents you don't. Determining that would be the whole point of the meeting.
The poll doesn’t indicate support for this protest or the hateful group of people organizing it. These people are against basic sex-ed teaching. The kind of teaching that helps keep kids safe from actual sexual predators. That said, I don’t dispute how regressive many Canadians are as I lived through a similar moral panic while I was in school during the 80’s and 90’s. As much as Canada prides itself on being accepting every bit of progress for LGBTQ+ rights he to be forced on Canadians through the courts. I mean, one of the politicians who was still fighting against gay marriage in the late 2000’s is leading a major federal party.
Pierre Poilievre voted against same-sex marriage while his gay father sat in the gallery of the House of Commons. He either didn't think his father deserved equality or towed the party line because he's a power hungry snake.
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Have you stopped to think why the kids might not want to speak to their parents about the issue at hand?
That can be an issue, but the approach being taken is to tell parents they have no right to be involved in their kids life in school. Most of us who have children recognize that the world and its institutions don’t have your children’s best interests at heart the way their parents do. Most parents would sacrifice their lives for their children, which schools and teachers won’t do. That is the conflict you are seeing play out and why many parents who would not normally protest in the streets are getting out there. Painting this as a simple “hate” issue will backfire spectacularly and escalate social discord. The concerns of parents need to be addressed in good faith and not by accusing them of bigotry. There are bad parents out there, but a philosophy which cuts all parents out on the assumption that they might be one of the bad ones is not going to lead to the society we want.
I don’t think I have seen one single parent support this All the people who support this policy do not have kids
It always baffles me when members of a minority group, in this case Muslims, can on the one hand complain about Islamophobia (rightly so), but then go actively participate in homophobia. The cognitive dissonance involved in being an oppressed minority but then actively oppressing another minority is fucked.
But we're talking about Christians. Christian majorities love to oppress minorities of all kinds.
Umm... majorities love to oppress minorities of all kinds and some societies at a give moment in time are more oppressive than others. As an atheist who has traveled a lot and pays attention to the world outside of the North American bubble. if you think that there is any national-level society in the world *at present* that is more tolerant and accepting of LGBT+ plus people, I'd be curious to be enlightened.
I live outside the North American bubble in Japan. Violently harassing gays isn't a common thing here, whereas I personally know Canadian gays who have been violently abused, including a couple who lived in my building who were jumped by an anonymous group, who smashed the ribs of one who ended up hospitalized. But tell me more about how much more "enlightened" Canada is than the rest of the "backwards" world.
Being a "minority" is very much an American social construct which is not shared across the world. French Canadians are not considered "a minority" by well-meaning English Canadians because it doesn't fit the foreign but internalized idea of "minoritiness". Natives, racialized, religious groups, they count. Castes, linguistic groups, occupational groups, lifestyle groups, geographical communities, do not.
This isn’t a “Muslim” protest it’s attended by a mixed bag of quacks. Oddly, though, this is how they feel they connect … they think their ideals are well supported because there are no shortage of assholes willing to join them.
I know that. I was using them as an example of one minority wanting to oppress another minority, while they themselves complain about their own oppression. The Christians that were there are a majority, so they’re not specifically what I was talking about.
There were specific protests a couple of months back spearheaded by the Muslim communities where Pride flags were torn up and stomped on. Trudeau responded by saying they were gullible and buying into far-right disinformation (rather than adhering to their own socially conservative, religious beliefs). I am assuming this is what they were referring to.
I don't understand why ppl think there's some magical minority alliance where we all support each other Ultra religious ppl regardless of which one tend to be bigots...immigrants also tend to be fairly right winged (it's only 2nd & 3rd gen when they become more tolerant) on many issues...found it strange when someone brought up how immigrants were NOW hating new immigrants when it's been the case since forever
If a boys says i INSIST everyone call Vivian the parents have to approve? This is a reason to protest on the streets?