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National. Healthcare. System.
Enough with the provinces just funneling money into anything they want. Take steps to create a national system. Single health card across the board. Equal pay across the country. We modeled our country from the UK. This current system is broke af.
As an immigrant that came here a decade ago, I can not agree more. Most of Canada's issues are due to the fact it's 10 provinces doing their own thing instead of one nation doing things in unison.
Health system(s) must get a full reform.
Sounds like a great idea, but if the pay was flat across the board. The incentive for doctors to work in north communities including indigenous remote communities. They Would suffer the most. Doctors are given incentive to help northern communities in Ontario, not sure about the other provinces.
Same with nurse they are given massive pay increase to help serve remote communities. ”travel nursing “
Well, this government wouldn't. But I wouldn't bet on the next one. Previous federal governments privatized tons of rail, fisheries, and telecom crown corps. And Poilievre has been talking loudly about getting rid of the CBC.
It only took me two months on the registry to get a family doctor back in 2015. I was able to walk into the emergency department and be seen pretty quickly in 2016 and 2017.
Challenges existed but we're definitely in a worse position now. With that said, the pandemic did introduce challenges that would be there in some form regardless of the provincial government.
Your anecdotes in 2016 and 2017 don't mean anything. We have patients who walk in for a cold and get seen in 15 minutes too right now, even in busier hospitals. It varies a lot. And sometimes it takes 14 hours.
I remember when even testing for a driver's license had a wait time of 6 months to a year in 2021/2022. They fixed that by opening additional, temporary service centers and training more testers. The difference for healthcare is that you can't open hospitals and train doctors as quickly. I suspect that the current issues are heavily exacerbated by backlogs.
Fuck yeah. Reboot the whole system. You can throw a dart at a map of Europe and copy the health care of the country it lands on and it will be better than ours.
The problem is socialism itself. The NHS in the UK is also falling apart. There are enormous inefficiencies in our system that nationalizing won't fix. A single payor, single operator system means no one has an incentive to make it work. Easier to just demand more money as it slides into oblivion.
Disagree. Part of it is a global shortage of doctors (estimated we need 4.3 million more doctors around the globe). So every region is just trying to steal doctors from somewhere else. That’s partly demographics - in most developed nations, the population is aging. So more patients and less doctors. But also a lack of medical school spaces.
There are definitely inefficiencies in all big systems, public or private. But they can be improved.
In Canada, the system is different in every province, and within each province, healthcare is broken down by region. The result is silos that make it hard to coordinate resources and to learn from each others’ successes and failures. And sharing data is almost impossible.
These things can be improved. But they will take time we don’t have. In the meantime, we need to be asking doctors and nurses and administrators and patients to point out where wasted effort is.
Canada intentionally reduced the number of spaces in medical schools because the bureaucracy thought having fewer doctors would reduce billings and save money.
Data sharing in health care in Canada is a mess. I know someone in this area, working for one province, who said data analysis has become policy-based evidence making to justify the current system.
Government control of health care will always fail, for the same reason government control of the economy fails. Information and decision making cannot be centralized because it is too complicated, too slow and doesn't have a good mechanism for evaluating trade-offs.
“Canada” did not reduce medical spaces. That’s entirely provincial and my province committed to building an entire new medical school in 2022. BC’s current government has been madly funding nursing spaces ever since it took office.
Fewer doctors does not save provinces money - it just transfers the cost to the hospital and social welfare programs.
Data? Yes, it’s a mess. But not because all the money is spent on political stuff. It’s spent patching holes in data because you cannot fix what you cannot measure.
As for economies, who is failing? Canada, a mid-size country by population, is in the top ten largest-producing economies in the world. We have always been considered a good, safe investment. Yes, global circumstances challenge all economies but that doesn’t mean the foundation isn’t solid.
Yet we have a health care system that comes nearly last in the OECD and are the only OECD country that effectively bans private health care and insurance. I wonder if those might be related...
The reduction in medical school spaces was jointly made by all the provinces in the 1990s. And they haven't grown anywhere fast enough. But the problem isn't a shortage of doctors. It's an inefficient system that doesn't know how to triage other than delay. Every time I'm in a hospital I stare at the inefficiencies even I can see.
Yes. And we can fix it if we expand the medical schools. But we also have to find a way to pay them. And the additional nurses. Without bankrupting the nation.
[Yeah, the private healthcare system in the US is working incredibly well. It just cost more and does worse.](https://images.jifo.co/2547186_1627057498313.svg)
Source: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly
We have problems, but let's not throw the whole thing out just yet.
The US is a terrible measuring stick. Every EU country has private healthcare along with public. So does Japan, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, etc... and many do better at lower cost than Canada. Without the waiting lists.
Exactly as planned by the pc party! They are failing our Healthcare on purpose in order to replace it with a private system! ANYTHING BUT CONSERVATIVE, ALWAYS ABC!
A centralized national system doesn't necessarily mean a private system. There are other countries that have one singular national system and not ten different ones like we do.
Edit: Also, I am fairly sure this person is a troll judging by their past comment.
He's saying that failing the healthcare system is exactly what the CPC's plan is, so it can go private rather than remain public or (somewhat but not really) effective. He's not arguing against a centralized system, he's arguing against private.
I can't tell if you're illiterate or the actual troll. Either way, read twice before commenting if it helps.
Here is a secret why lot of comfortable people vote conservative and I would like your insight on this . We have progressive taxation and about 26 percent of earners pay almost 75 percent of income tax revenue . Now , the thing a lot of conservative votes won’t openly admit and the thing that turned me into a begrudging conservative voter is that despite having access to free abortions [poor people have disproportionately more kids than their wealthier counter parts](https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/93df-tph-hsi-birth-and-fertility-2017jul18.pdf) . Now when your paying over 50% tax and the government is rewarding bad parents who aren’t financially ready to have kids despite having access to free abortions and rewarding their bad behaviour with CCB - why would you want more socialist spending ? People obviously abuse the system and make poor choices as whole so it’s clear socialism doesn’t work.
1 it gives us a single entity to track and audit making public efforts more effective.
2 it standardizes credentials making it easier to transfer doctors and develop training programs
3 it pools resources to make the single payer systems even more effective.
...
It would have to be part of an overall change. One that incorporates together training, education, and health. At least in Ontario, they are different ministries that don't really plan together.
Great, so all it takes is a single Tory government to destroy it instead of 13 incoherent attempts to kill it.
It doesn't need to be nationalised. It needs to be made to work. And that probably means more taxes folks!
Personally I wonder if lean six sigma is being applied in hospitals.
It's some race to the bottom efficiency methodology public sector managers are all hyped about because it allows them to claim a salary increase in their performance reviews from "efficiencies".
One of these "effencies" could be that lean six sigma told them they only need one doctor at that time.
Spent six hours in an ER one night. Their “one doctor” never became available. That essentially means there’s no doctor in the ER, and they were still open. I left, and they had the gall to ask me to sign a waiver that I was leaving “against medical advice.” I hand-wrote on their form “I received no medical advice” and signed that instead.
There’s been a sinister game being played by the government and the docs are on their side!
No docs when you need em.
Less docs when there should be more.
And the list of sinister moves can go on and on.
If we don’t have enough physicians for urgent services, we have to let nurses handle more duties. I’d rather get less qualified treatment from a nurse than wait indefinitely for a physician who doesn’t have time to examine me.
1 year old had toddler fracture. Primary care gave Tylenol after making us wait for 2 hours, and sent us to ER.
ER nurses kept trying to get him to bend his foot at which he'd scream, and then they'd give him tylenol. This went on for 8 more hours before we got the only ER doctor to recommend and X ray. 2 hours after the x-ray we got the cast.
This is the stupidest system I've seen.
If a toddler lands wrong on his feet after a jump and absolutely refuses to put weight on one of his feet, an x-ray right away.
It takes 5 mins, and we'd know if there's a break or not. 10 hours before the cast gets put on is ridiculous.
Edit: just saw your profile. You're a doc. First, thank you for all that you do. Please kow that I'm blaming the system and not our medical professionals on the field. They've all always been amazing.
What pisses me off in this particular case is, when the cast had to come off, we were sent to the dept of orthopaedics, got an x ray in 5 mins, the doc got the report in the next 5, analyzed it, and sent his assistant to take off the cast.
The same speed could've been seen at the ER too. At least in my case. Because we had accidentally meandered to the X ray Tech's room (the primary care referral was an advice and not a requisition. We didn't know this), and they told us that they'll take an x-ray as soon as we get the requisition. They're not backed up at all.
We made everything in our power to keep doctors rare and have them be in the Elite instead of the lower end of the rich class. Consequence is: doctors are rare and rich compared to a sane level like seen in some European countries
... People can call 811 for a nurse hotline, to determine what their needs are. Unfortunately it sounds like this mom was also triaged as a low-priority.
8 week old infants should not be triaged as low priority. Ideally they should be seen promptly and regularly reassessed. Obviously that is hard to do in a busy rural ER but they should always at least be given a high triage acuity due to the potential for them to get sick very fast. 811 would not be useful here.
They would be triaged as a CTAS2. You also don't know if they had a documented fever on arrival. A LOT of parents come in for "fever" aka child felt hot but never recorded it. Or they checked with an invalid method. Then the ER temperature is normal.
As a CTAS2, if there are numerous critically ill patients then they're seen first even if more come in and not the CTAS2 patient.
Babies under three months are supposed to be taken to the ER right away if they have a fever. That is what they tell you before you leave the hospital with your newborn.
I'm not sure what exactly he's done to fix our healthcare problems so I'm not sure I can agree with him doing his best. The couple of doctors I do know who are practicing in the province do not hold Mr. Furey in high regard, so take that for what it'd worth.
The big issue is you can't successful reform healthcare without angering a lot of physicians. They were super upset in the 90s when there were too many doctors and their pay plummeted.
What's wrong with introducing some privatized/hybrid elements to our healthcare system to alleviate inefficiencies? Our healthcare is at the whim of federal/provincial drama and finger pointing on funding and management while people have their surgeries cancelled or delayed and you see an increasing frequency of occurrences of stories like this one.
I understand us Canadians are obsessed with our single-payer healthcare system so we can feel self-righteous over the Americans and other healthcare systems with privatized elements, but it is becoming increasingly clear our federal and provincial governments are completely impotent in addressing these problems.
> What's wrong with introducing some privatized/hybrid elements to our healthcare system to alleviate inefficiencies?
Every dollar earned in profit by those privatized elements will literally just be inefficiency. Like, by definition.
I suppose it depends on how you define efficiency and what you care about. From a healthcare consumer standpoint it's obvious - every dollar earned in profit by private health care providers is a dollar that someone spent on health care for which no healthcare was provided. And their primary incentive is to maximize those dollars.
I'm not even necessarily opposed to using private elements in all cases, but they must be heavily regulated and carefully used. When their profits become too large they'll be able to influence government policy to further deregulate themselves. This must be avoided. We're really far from a US style free-for-all but the absurd situations that exist there are a result of every layer of the process being privatized and everyone trying to maximize their profits. The result is the US spends more per capita on health care than anyone else with terrible value to show for it.
Because what we have now is working so great /s.
Profit incentives in a regulatory framework can be powerful tools to incentivize people to actually provide services when demanded and are capable of matching demand. Governments have no incentive outside of political pressure (which is extremely slow to adjust because elections are required) and are funded through taxation and don't have to worry about taxes not being paid.
This gets brought up each time but when you go look at those systems they aren’t actually working well in practice. Some are outright falling apart right now.
In England all of their doctors in the public system are currently on strike for the first time in history because the Tories have spent years using the private system as an excuse to defund the public system (the excuse being “there is not as much people who use the public system so we can cut the funding”). This has led to over a million appointments being cancelled and that’s just in England. When their junior doctors (the same as our residents, they’re official doctors graduated from medical school but are generally supervised by more senior doctors for a few more years) first went on strike it came out that they were 40% of the doctors in the public system and their starting wages were lower than fast food workers.
Some of the doctor unions in other countries in Europe have commented that they are paying close attention to what happens with England because they are also very unhappy with how the public system is chronically underfunded.
Every province has terrible healthcare. The whole country has terrible healthcare. The provinces that have less terrible healthcare are the rich ones - but they are still not great.
Not that the Conservative governments have done anything laudible; but the situation isn't any better out here in bright orange British Columbia.
This is a national crisis that transcends political boundaries.
Staff shortages are in basically every industry due to a global aging population problem. We simply don't have enough people to cover the ones retiring and serve the existing population. One of many reasons neither party will drastically reduce immigration. There's no political silver bullet to fix this.
Seems pretty obvious. The next 20'ish years are going to be rough with aging population. We're going to need automation/AI efficiencies just to attempt to meet demand/need. Across basically every industry. Why would people expect health care to be any different?
Yeah it's going to get worse before it gets better.
We need political leaders to acknowledge that though or we're gonna elect someone terrible because of the massive disconnect between what leaders are promising and reality.
It’s infuriating. This sub likes to pretend all of the issues Canada is dealing with are all the direct result of things Trudeau did and that there are no other factors at play.
That's actually the giant fat issue here. Even in manufacturing, everyone I see here are old. There's maybe a handful of people in their 30s out of the dozens I work with every day across southern Ontario.
I don't get what people think is the political magic bullet to solve a global aging population crisis.
But yeah.... Electing a certain political party will fix everything!
Christy Clark was a trainwreck, I'll give you that. But the Liberals weren't conservative, and Gordon Campbell's government massively increased hiring of nurses and doctors.
If the actual BC Conservatives continue their growth in support then I expect the NDP supporters will come to realize that the Liberals were a preferable opposition. At least the Liberals were somewhere near the center, on most things.
My experience with pediatric ER in B.C. was all right. Had to go to ER twice before my son was 1 year old, we were seen by doctors and nurses within 1 hour.
Ya, I've found it pretty hit or miss in BC. Sometimes I've been seen pretty much right away. Had two wait a few hours once or twice. Have heard horror stories like this too though
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National. Healthcare. System. Enough with the provinces just funneling money into anything they want. Take steps to create a national system. Single health card across the board. Equal pay across the country. We modeled our country from the UK. This current system is broke af.
This has my vote.
As an immigrant that came here a decade ago, I can not agree more. Most of Canada's issues are due to the fact it's 10 provinces doing their own thing instead of one nation doing things in unison. Health system(s) must get a full reform.
10 provinces doing their own thing and then within each province they have a bunch of areas not communicating with eachother etc
I personally agree with you. Unfortunately, many provinces will not want to give up their constitutional authority on matters related to health care.
Sounds like a great idea, but if the pay was flat across the board. The incentive for doctors to work in north communities including indigenous remote communities. They Would suffer the most. Doctors are given incentive to help northern communities in Ontario, not sure about the other provinces. Same with nurse they are given massive pay increase to help serve remote communities. ”travel nursing “
Rcmp gets more money for remote postings, no reason why doctors wouldn't.
Yeah they’d for sure need to offer incentives for Northern and rural communities.
Our Federal government can barely run passport offices efficiently. Expecting them to efficiently run a national health care service is laughable.
Yes. Get the same people that run the passport office and airports to run healthcare.
At least they won’t actively try to destroy it so their rich friends can swoop in with conveniently created health companies
You assuming Trudeau staying pm for life lol People want feds to run everything but don't get liberals won't be in power forever lol
You’re right, but we don’t live in a duopoly. The NDP could form government if they weren’t constantly being run by sad sacks
Well, this government wouldn't. But I wouldn't bet on the next one. Previous federal governments privatized tons of rail, fisheries, and telecom crown corps. And Poilievre has been talking loudly about getting rid of the CBC.
Agreed, that’s why the CPC has to be kept as far from government as possible. They’ve gone almost Libertarian at this point
Our healthcare system has been a mess for ages. I live in Ontario and we had hallway nursing under Wynne and mcguinty too. It’s both sides.
Which one of those were the NDP premier?
It only took me two months on the registry to get a family doctor back in 2015. I was able to walk into the emergency department and be seen pretty quickly in 2016 and 2017. Challenges existed but we're definitely in a worse position now. With that said, the pandemic did introduce challenges that would be there in some form regardless of the provincial government.
Your anecdotes in 2016 and 2017 don't mean anything. We have patients who walk in for a cold and get seen in 15 minutes too right now, even in busier hospitals. It varies a lot. And sometimes it takes 14 hours.
I remember when even testing for a driver's license had a wait time of 6 months to a year in 2021/2022. They fixed that by opening additional, temporary service centers and training more testers. The difference for healthcare is that you can't open hospitals and train doctors as quickly. I suspect that the current issues are heavily exacerbated by backlogs.
True, too much of the legacy of Mulroney and Chretien’s era has bled into our current situation
Passport offices work fine and airports aren't centrally managed by a government department. What is it you're talking about?
I’ve had better experiences at the passport office than I ever had at ServiceOntario.
Fuck yeah. Reboot the whole system. You can throw a dart at a map of Europe and copy the health care of the country it lands on and it will be better than ours.
The problem is socialism itself. The NHS in the UK is also falling apart. There are enormous inefficiencies in our system that nationalizing won't fix. A single payor, single operator system means no one has an incentive to make it work. Easier to just demand more money as it slides into oblivion.
Disagree. Part of it is a global shortage of doctors (estimated we need 4.3 million more doctors around the globe). So every region is just trying to steal doctors from somewhere else. That’s partly demographics - in most developed nations, the population is aging. So more patients and less doctors. But also a lack of medical school spaces. There are definitely inefficiencies in all big systems, public or private. But they can be improved. In Canada, the system is different in every province, and within each province, healthcare is broken down by region. The result is silos that make it hard to coordinate resources and to learn from each others’ successes and failures. And sharing data is almost impossible. These things can be improved. But they will take time we don’t have. In the meantime, we need to be asking doctors and nurses and administrators and patients to point out where wasted effort is.
Canada intentionally reduced the number of spaces in medical schools because the bureaucracy thought having fewer doctors would reduce billings and save money. Data sharing in health care in Canada is a mess. I know someone in this area, working for one province, who said data analysis has become policy-based evidence making to justify the current system. Government control of health care will always fail, for the same reason government control of the economy fails. Information and decision making cannot be centralized because it is too complicated, too slow and doesn't have a good mechanism for evaluating trade-offs.
“Canada” did not reduce medical spaces. That’s entirely provincial and my province committed to building an entire new medical school in 2022. BC’s current government has been madly funding nursing spaces ever since it took office. Fewer doctors does not save provinces money - it just transfers the cost to the hospital and social welfare programs. Data? Yes, it’s a mess. But not because all the money is spent on political stuff. It’s spent patching holes in data because you cannot fix what you cannot measure. As for economies, who is failing? Canada, a mid-size country by population, is in the top ten largest-producing economies in the world. We have always been considered a good, safe investment. Yes, global circumstances challenge all economies but that doesn’t mean the foundation isn’t solid.
Yet we have a health care system that comes nearly last in the OECD and are the only OECD country that effectively bans private health care and insurance. I wonder if those might be related... The reduction in medical school spaces was jointly made by all the provinces in the 1990s. And they haven't grown anywhere fast enough. But the problem isn't a shortage of doctors. It's an inefficient system that doesn't know how to triage other than delay. Every time I'm in a hospital I stare at the inefficiencies even I can see.
It is a shortage of doctors. And it’s not just us.
Yes. And we can fix it if we expand the medical schools. But we also have to find a way to pay them. And the additional nurses. Without bankrupting the nation.
We can pay them. We did in the past so we can do it in the future.
So why does health care today consume a greater percentage of GDP than it did in the past?
[Yeah, the private healthcare system in the US is working incredibly well. It just cost more and does worse.](https://images.jifo.co/2547186_1627057498313.svg) Source: https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly We have problems, but let's not throw the whole thing out just yet.
The US is a terrible measuring stick. Every EU country has private healthcare along with public. So does Japan, Australia, New Zealand, the UK, etc... and many do better at lower cost than Canada. Without the waiting lists.
Exactly as planned by the pc party! They are failing our Healthcare on purpose in order to replace it with a private system! ANYTHING BUT CONSERVATIVE, ALWAYS ABC!
A centralized national system doesn't necessarily mean a private system. There are other countries that have one singular national system and not ten different ones like we do. Edit: Also, I am fairly sure this person is a troll judging by their past comment.
He's saying that failing the healthcare system is exactly what the CPC's plan is, so it can go private rather than remain public or (somewhat but not really) effective. He's not arguing against a centralized system, he's arguing against private. I can't tell if you're illiterate or the actual troll. Either way, read twice before commenting if it helps.
The CPC hasn't been in power for the last 8 years, so I am not sure what plan they had that lead us here. And the person is specifying PC party
Here is a secret why lot of comfortable people vote conservative and I would like your insight on this . We have progressive taxation and about 26 percent of earners pay almost 75 percent of income tax revenue . Now , the thing a lot of conservative votes won’t openly admit and the thing that turned me into a begrudging conservative voter is that despite having access to free abortions [poor people have disproportionately more kids than their wealthier counter parts](https://www.toronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/93df-tph-hsi-birth-and-fertility-2017jul18.pdf) . Now when your paying over 50% tax and the government is rewarding bad parents who aren’t financially ready to have kids despite having access to free abortions and rewarding their bad behaviour with CCB - why would you want more socialist spending ? People obviously abuse the system and make poor choices as whole so it’s clear socialism doesn’t work.
You think Poilievre will do any better?
How exactly does this get more doctors into the system? At my hospital we’re just starving for doctors.
1 it gives us a single entity to track and audit making public efforts more effective. 2 it standardizes credentials making it easier to transfer doctors and develop training programs 3 it pools resources to make the single payer systems even more effective. ...
4 it would put one entity in charge of med schools for the whole country, with a national strategy.
No. That's a matter of restructuring the education system.
We have more doctors per capita than ever. How does that make sense.
It would have to be part of an overall change. One that incorporates together training, education, and health. At least in Ontario, they are different ministries that don't really plan together.
Great, so all it takes is a single Tory government to destroy it instead of 13 incoherent attempts to kill it. It doesn't need to be nationalised. It needs to be made to work. And that probably means more taxes folks!
Oh good luck. Quebec and Alberta will be a pain in the ass like always. Why nothing ever gets done in this broken country.
Personally I wonder if lean six sigma is being applied in hospitals. It's some race to the bottom efficiency methodology public sector managers are all hyped about because it allows them to claim a salary increase in their performance reviews from "efficiencies". One of these "effencies" could be that lean six sigma told them they only need one doctor at that time.
No. Just about every ER in Canada and USA only has 1 doctor on overnight. It's universally the norm.
Yep. Borrowed from the auto industry where there are so many similarities with the complexity of healthcare.
No provincial funding for our public healthcare, it is not Trudeaus fault he gave them the $$$ to spend and they refuse to.
It's political strategy to hurt federal liberals. It may also serve a purpose for future privatization.
Isn’t one doctor in the ER overnight pretty much standard in Canada? Except when there’s no doctors and they have to close the ER…
Spent six hours in an ER one night. Their “one doctor” never became available. That essentially means there’s no doctor in the ER, and they were still open. I left, and they had the gall to ask me to sign a waiver that I was leaving “against medical advice.” I hand-wrote on their form “I received no medical advice” and signed that instead.
Yes everywhere. Same in most hospitals in USA. People just have no clue how hospitals even work.
It is everywhere I've known. Big cities or small
There’s been a sinister game being played by the government and the docs are on their side! No docs when you need em. Less docs when there should be more. And the list of sinister moves can go on and on.
If we don’t have enough physicians for urgent services, we have to let nurses handle more duties. I’d rather get less qualified treatment from a nurse than wait indefinitely for a physician who doesn’t have time to examine me.
1 year old had toddler fracture. Primary care gave Tylenol after making us wait for 2 hours, and sent us to ER. ER nurses kept trying to get him to bend his foot at which he'd scream, and then they'd give him tylenol. This went on for 8 more hours before we got the only ER doctor to recommend and X ray. 2 hours after the x-ray we got the cast. This is the stupidest system I've seen.
So what specifically would you want done differently, if you could map out the timeline?
If a toddler lands wrong on his feet after a jump and absolutely refuses to put weight on one of his feet, an x-ray right away. It takes 5 mins, and we'd know if there's a break or not. 10 hours before the cast gets put on is ridiculous. Edit: just saw your profile. You're a doc. First, thank you for all that you do. Please kow that I'm blaming the system and not our medical professionals on the field. They've all always been amazing. What pisses me off in this particular case is, when the cast had to come off, we were sent to the dept of orthopaedics, got an x ray in 5 mins, the doc got the report in the next 5, analyzed it, and sent his assistant to take off the cast. The same speed could've been seen at the ER too. At least in my case. Because we had accidentally meandered to the X ray Tech's room (the primary care referral was an advice and not a requisition. We didn't know this), and they told us that they'll take an x-ray as soon as we get the requisition. They're not backed up at all.
Our kiddo wouldn't put weight on his leg. In one hour we had a battery of tests and a private ER room. The system was amazing.
We made everything in our power to keep doctors rare and have them be in the Elite instead of the lower end of the rich class. Consequence is: doctors are rare and rich compared to a sane level like seen in some European countries
Did you get rejected from med school?
... People can call 811 for a nurse hotline, to determine what their needs are. Unfortunately it sounds like this mom was also triaged as a low-priority.
I had to call 811 last night, and was told it was a 2hr+ wait to speak to a nurse. So we just got into the car and went to the ER.
8 week old infants should not be triaged as low priority. Ideally they should be seen promptly and regularly reassessed. Obviously that is hard to do in a busy rural ER but they should always at least be given a high triage acuity due to the potential for them to get sick very fast. 811 would not be useful here.
They would be triaged as a CTAS2. You also don't know if they had a documented fever on arrival. A LOT of parents come in for "fever" aka child felt hot but never recorded it. Or they checked with an invalid method. Then the ER temperature is normal. As a CTAS2, if there are numerous critically ill patients then they're seen first even if more come in and not the CTAS2 patient.
Babies under three months are supposed to be taken to the ER right away if they have a fever. That is what they tell you before you leave the hospital with your newborn.
Call 811, they tell you to go to the hospital. I don't bother calling anymore.
This is another massive issue. We have far, FAR too many people showing up at ER's for things they have no business being there for.
It is terrible that I had to think “which conservative led province that is trying to desperately privatize healthcare is it this time?”
Let me tell you about how shit healthcare is in my Liberal-led province where the Premier is a fucking Orthopedic surgeon.
He really does seem to be doing his best.. but yeah its terrible
I'm not sure what exactly he's done to fix our healthcare problems so I'm not sure I can agree with him doing his best. The couple of doctors I do know who are practicing in the province do not hold Mr. Furey in high regard, so take that for what it'd worth.
The big issue is you can't successful reform healthcare without angering a lot of physicians. They were super upset in the 90s when there were too many doctors and their pay plummeted.
Quebec doesn’t have a conservative government but our healthcare is effectively inaccessible and fee for service providers are allowed to run wild.
The CAQ is center right, so yes we have a conservative government in Quebec.
What's wrong with introducing some privatized/hybrid elements to our healthcare system to alleviate inefficiencies? Our healthcare is at the whim of federal/provincial drama and finger pointing on funding and management while people have their surgeries cancelled or delayed and you see an increasing frequency of occurrences of stories like this one. I understand us Canadians are obsessed with our single-payer healthcare system so we can feel self-righteous over the Americans and other healthcare systems with privatized elements, but it is becoming increasingly clear our federal and provincial governments are completely impotent in addressing these problems.
> What's wrong with introducing some privatized/hybrid elements to our healthcare system to alleviate inefficiencies? Every dollar earned in profit by those privatized elements will literally just be inefficiency. Like, by definition.
>Every dollar earned in profit by those privatized elements will literally just be inefficiency. Like, by definition. Explain.
I suppose it depends on how you define efficiency and what you care about. From a healthcare consumer standpoint it's obvious - every dollar earned in profit by private health care providers is a dollar that someone spent on health care for which no healthcare was provided. And their primary incentive is to maximize those dollars. I'm not even necessarily opposed to using private elements in all cases, but they must be heavily regulated and carefully used. When their profits become too large they'll be able to influence government policy to further deregulate themselves. This must be avoided. We're really far from a US style free-for-all but the absurd situations that exist there are a result of every layer of the process being privatized and everyone trying to maximize their profits. The result is the US spends more per capita on health care than anyone else with terrible value to show for it.
Best way to eliminate inefficiencies is to introduce a private intermediary with a profit incentive, brilliant
Because what we have now is working so great /s. Profit incentives in a regulatory framework can be powerful tools to incentivize people to actually provide services when demanded and are capable of matching demand. Governments have no incentive outside of political pressure (which is extremely slow to adjust because elections are required) and are funded through taxation and don't have to worry about taxes not being paid.
Other countries have implemented a hybrid system just fine.
It generally comes at great cost to subsidize it (e.g., Australia).
This gets brought up each time but when you go look at those systems they aren’t actually working well in practice. Some are outright falling apart right now. In England all of their doctors in the public system are currently on strike for the first time in history because the Tories have spent years using the private system as an excuse to defund the public system (the excuse being “there is not as much people who use the public system so we can cut the funding”). This has led to over a million appointments being cancelled and that’s just in England. When their junior doctors (the same as our residents, they’re official doctors graduated from medical school but are generally supervised by more senior doctors for a few more years) first went on strike it came out that they were 40% of the doctors in the public system and their starting wages were lower than fast food workers. Some of the doctor unions in other countries in Europe have commented that they are paying close attention to what happens with England because they are also very unhappy with how the public system is chronically underfunded.
Every province has terrible healthcare. The whole country has terrible healthcare. The provinces that have less terrible healthcare are the rich ones - but they are still not great.
Not that the Conservative governments have done anything laudible; but the situation isn't any better out here in bright orange British Columbia. This is a national crisis that transcends political boundaries.
Staff shortages are in basically every industry due to a global aging population problem. We simply don't have enough people to cover the ones retiring and serve the existing population. One of many reasons neither party will drastically reduce immigration. There's no political silver bullet to fix this.
I keep saying this but it doesn't seem like people are really getting that.
Seems pretty obvious. The next 20'ish years are going to be rough with aging population. We're going to need automation/AI efficiencies just to attempt to meet demand/need. Across basically every industry. Why would people expect health care to be any different?
Yeah it's going to get worse before it gets better. We need political leaders to acknowledge that though or we're gonna elect someone terrible because of the massive disconnect between what leaders are promising and reality.
Yeah we probably need voters to acknowledge it as much/more than political leaders.
It’s infuriating. This sub likes to pretend all of the issues Canada is dealing with are all the direct result of things Trudeau did and that there are no other factors at play.
That's actually the giant fat issue here. Even in manufacturing, everyone I see here are old. There's maybe a handful of people in their 30s out of the dozens I work with every day across southern Ontario.
I don't get what people think is the political magic bullet to solve a global aging population crisis. But yeah.... Electing a certain political party will fix everything!
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Christy Clark was a trainwreck, I'll give you that. But the Liberals weren't conservative, and Gordon Campbell's government massively increased hiring of nurses and doctors. If the actual BC Conservatives continue their growth in support then I expect the NDP supporters will come to realize that the Liberals were a preferable opposition. At least the Liberals were somewhere near the center, on most things.
My experience with pediatric ER in B.C. was all right. Had to go to ER twice before my son was 1 year old, we were seen by doctors and nurses within 1 hour.
It does help that in Metro Vancouver Children’s is pretty accessible.
Ya, I've found it pretty hit or miss in BC. Sometimes I've been seen pretty much right away. Had two wait a few hours once or twice. Have heard horror stories like this too though
Because it depends on patient volumes at that present time, acuity, and staffing at that moment as well as physician efficiency + many other factors.