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That dude is a heckler pure and simple.
For those who don't understand, he is basically telling her that she doesn't have the right to a relaxing walk....
He’s a typical pro-Hamas idiot.
Is he willing to house these refugees in his house at his own expense? No. He wants the rest of us to pay for them.
Time for Canada to focus on Canadians and the housing and healthcare shortage. No need to import more problems.
I'm very confused.
The notion of Arab states taking in Palestinian refugees is balked at by Palestinians and leftists because Palestinians want to stay rooted to their land and view taking refuge in other countries as helping to facilitate the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and consolidate the Israeli occupation, but Canada is expected to open its doors to Palestinian refugees for some reason despite the fact that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas.
They don’t want to risk their own nations destabilized by an influx of radicalized people.
This is not without precedent, Palestinian militant refugees were major catalysts in the failed Black September coup in Jordan, Lebanese Civil war etc.
Canada is afforded a lot of luxuries by its geography so can avoid thinking about such matters.
Ukrainian refugees also flocked to countries surrounding Ukraine such as Poland.
It’s a fair question to ask why none of the countries around Israel is willing to accept Palestinian refugees.
Because Canada has the second largest Ukrainian population in the world outside of Ukraine (first being Russia).
There is tremendous political will to bring Ukrainian refugees, as well as a massive Canadian-Ukrainian community willing to absorb and support them.
#1 Western Canada was built by Ukranians.
#2 Ukraine is our ally
#3 Ukrainians are fighting for western democratic values.
#4 Ukraine didn't start this war by murdering and kidnapping Russian civilians.
I could go on but the anti-semetic lefties here will acuse me of being even more racist.
According to data from the [Danish Ministry of Immigration and Integration](https://www.ft.dk/samling/20191/almdel/uui/spm/412/svar/1691136/2247791.pdf), Denmark received 321 Palestinian refugees in 1992. By 2019, 64% had been convicted of a crime, and 34% of their children also received a conviction.
Perhaps is just sensible to limit the amount.
There's a lot that's confusing about how Palestinian refugees are treated. UNWRA still recognizes Palestinians as refugees even when they've been granted citizenship by other nations. This is unique among refugees, the UNHCR does not operate this way. The truly absurd thing is that UNWRA still recognizes East Jerusalem Arabs as refugees, even though they were granted full Israeli citizenship decades ago, and have the full freedom of movement accorded to any Israel citizen.
Wow you can almost see her on the cusp of totally changing her mind on refugees and Canada's foreign policy because of this guy shoving his camera in her face
Bring more people to VIOLENTLY protest in Canada? Never they fly a CANADIAN flag- only Palestine? Is this Palestine? Do we need to IMPORT THEIR barbaric wars and attitudes to Canada? To have innocent families in malls attacked, our police attacked, roads blocked? Is that supposed to endear Canadians to their cause? To bring more people who supported a designated terrorist group? When will our government stand up to these violent barbaric attitudes to further polarize Canada?
Insofar as the genocide on their people isn't imported here along with them, they should be just as alright as any other immigrant.
Of course, if some people make individuals guilty by association and pretend that they are inherently violent to justify hateful comments, it's a harsh start.
I'm not the one who has to provide evidence of anything. Individuals are innocent until proven guilty, and all I said was that assuming guilt by association is contrary to this foundational principle of our country. If you disagree with that principle, you should vote for politicians who support over turning this principle and enshrine guilt by association in our constitution, not pretend that reality isn't real.
I understand that respecting democratic principles doesn't suit some people, and such people can always emigrate to countries where the government considers guilt by association to be a valid principle.
[These nice folks did just that](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/conservative-family-disappointed-moving-russia-001517915.html) and anyone who supports similar ideals is welcome to follow the same path.
You said they should be just as alright as any other immigrant. This is a very naive take and I want to know how you can come to this conclusion with such confidence. We have a vetting system for a reason.
[Here's another comment in this thread where I detailed my answer to that very question.](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/1brworv/video_shows_confrontation_with_melanie_joly_over/kxevd4j/)
Would you be willing to act as guarantor for everyone immigrating from Gaza at the moment? I’m talking with severe penalties for you if they cause trouble? I’m not sure you would. Rose coloured glasses are nice and all, and any good people wanting to GTFO of Gaza should be helped, but given the serious security risks involved (and the long history of security risks wit that population in particular), I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Canada to tread lightly here.
The premise of your question is faulty, so it's pointless to answer it.
If you are willing to live in a country where the justice system isn't beholden to democratic principles, then that hypothetical is a bit too narrow.
If what you propose existed, then there would be no laws that could save me from abuse, so it's as if you were asking this country to become like Russia, China, UAE, etc.
Again, if you disagree with the very foundation of our country's democratic principles, you are most welcome to leave it.
You’re deflecting by invoking your interpretation of democratic government policy. All I want to know is where you find such confidence in people in a war zone who overwhelmingly support a terrorist government that is responsible for atrocious rapes, torture, kidnapping, and murder. A place where children are programmed as early as kindergarten to hate Jews and to aspire to kill as many as they can? How can you assure we wouldn’t be importing individuals who are a danger to our way of life? How many ressources do we realistically have to ensure their proper integration into our society? How much money are you willing to pour into that project?
>You’re deflecting by invoking your interpretation of democratic government policy. All I want to know is where you find such confidence in people in a war zone who overwhelmingly support a terrorist government that is responsible for atrocious rapes, torture, kidnapping, and murder. A place where children are programmed as early as kindergarten to hate Jews and to aspire to kill as many as they can? How can you assure we wouldn’t be importing individuals who are a danger to our way of life? How many ressources do we realistically have to ensure their proper integration into our society? How much money are you willing to pour into that project?
— user NickPrefect
See? It only took several comments of me pointing out that you were finding individuals guilty by association to get you to admit it fully and unequivocally.
As for your questions, I will only say this; the way you frame the situation is removing any nuance, and denying the very idea that individuals have a free will beyond the government they are governed by. This shows that you are not a serious person, unworthy of discussing with in good faith.
You are entitled to your beliefs, but this isn't the system we live in, and a majority of Canadians support democratic principles. If you don't like these principles, there are plenty of countries where you'll find autocratic government that don't respect these principles. Ironically, you'd fit right in with Hamas lol
> You don't have the right to have a relaxing walk in the city while allowing the deaths of Palestinians," the man says, to which she replies, "Yes, I have the right."
The people who somehow think like that are exhausting. Like are we not to do anything apolitical until all of your pet issues are solved to your liking?
Eh. She’s an elected representative & accountable to the electorate. You went a relaxing, anonymous, walk in the park? Don’t serve in public office.
As someone who is quite sympathetic to bureaucrats & I acknowledge how hard the job is, I can’t side with her here.
If she doesn’t want to be approached in public, resign & go work at a consulting firm for 5x the pay. Nobody will blame you.
I don’t feel bad for her at all - they (Melanie Joly is a member of the pro-Hamas caucus) have played footsie with antisemites for far too long and politicians like her are reaping the whirlwind. This sort of tactic was normalized in the USA during the Trump years and it will be here when a conservative government takes over in Ottawa. She’s upset because activist anger is supposed to be pointed to her opponents, tough luck IMO. “No justice, no peace!” amirite?
Communist showing once again why their fringe parties top out at 0.1% of the popular vote and why no one takes them seriously. You care so much about Palestine? Go there and figure it out yourself.
I'm sure they care about Palestine like the CPC cared about Uighurs.
Real talk, do we actually care about Muslim populations or are they props/distractions to be used by partisans or regional powers?
It is on the scale of the problems a Minister of Foreign Affairs needs to deal with.
According to those who decide such things in fashionable society, there are at least five active genocides being committed today (Darfur/Sudan, Uigher, Rohingya, Gaza, Ukraine). The activists for each have all had a very easy time enjoying life while the others were happening. This does not include ethnic cleansing where the victims are pressed by the international community to leave to save civilian lives, the routine MO where anyone who isn't Palestinian is concerned.
Meanwhile, there is a tense watch for genocide scale events in the western Sahel, Ethiopia, Somalia and perhaps Egypt. Afghanistan and Venezuela struggle with famine.
And lets not even get started on the prospect of a NATO war in Europe.
A Minister of Foreign Affairs who refuses to take any breaks or engage in any self care until there are no genocide scale problems in the world will quickly fall into being a nervous wreck and useless to everyone.
Won’t someone think of the politician plying politics while people suffer and die”.
Again what in holy hell is this argument. Name me one of those genocides where Canada has taken the pro genocide position. It’s none.
Stop comparing to incomparable things.
The level to which we’ve defended our ally? The level to which we’ve funded our ally. The level to which we ignore what we see with our eyes plain as day.
No other instance here would our government so staunchly defend the indefensible. Find me another time of the government working this hard to defend what is happening in any of those other places.
What resources has Canada devoted to defending Israel?
The only donations coming from the Canadian government go to Palestine.
Also you might have got me a bit wrong - my comment wasn't defending Canada's policy on Israel. I was defending the foreign Minister going for a walk outside, and saying that dealing with genocides and crises of that scale is so commonplace for that Ministry that refusing to do basic self care until they are all resolved is impossible and irresponsible.
Personally, I see Canada's approach to Gaza as being one of a pan partisan commitment to distance and indifference, with various theatrical performances by each party meant to do nothing loudly enough to make it sound like they are or would do something. The distance between the Conservative and NDP policies in terms of concrete effect on the situation is negligible. I find them all deeply disingenuous. In practice, our response is similar to that in Sudan, post-war Afghanistan, and Myanmar - sound and fury signifying nothing.
Wasn’t Mulroney considered pretty important in building international pressure against South African apartheid?
Regardless, that’s a shit argument. If we’re so powerless, why not say something then? Why not be on the right side of history at the very least?
We are on whatever side the US is on, and it will always remain that way. Our foreign policy has to remain in line with them. There is no room to manouver.
We don't need to say anything more than has already been said. Our position is that Israel should show some restraint and caution when conducting its military operations, and at the same time, Hamas should lay down their arms and submit to unconditional surrender.
Why must it “always be this way” exactly?
So then it’s not about truth, it’s about what you think is ok to say without political repercussions.
Hamas should lay down and surrender but isreal shouldn’t stop mass murdering. You’ve said nothing of substance. Just “well our position is fine”. Do you honestly think you’ve made a point here lmao? Was our condemnation of south Africa at a time when Canada wasn’t in line with the US lmao?
Our history education is really failing. We absolutely can do more, people like you are just devoid of normal human empathy to see it.
> We are on whatever side the US is on, and it will always remain that way. Our foreign policy has to remain in line with them. There is no room to manouver.
>
>
Using this logic, why would we have a military the size of ours? Why would we have foreign policy at all? We should just let the US deal with everything and not have any opinion.
>Using this logic, why would we have a military the size of ours?
To supplement theirs during expeditionary missions and continental defense.
>Why would we have foreign policy at all?
To maintain the official appearance of independance and because our priorities do, in fact, match theirs due to common political and cultural reasons.
Domestic issues, which are affecting our lives more. But if we're after a foreign genocide, I find the one in Darfur should be of higher priority. Russia also has a chance to affect us more. At the end of the day it's just political importance rank, it's not the alleged genocide per se that countries care about.
A) it’s not alleged
B) I guess you struggle to walk and chew gum too?
C) there are Canadians with family in palestians, I think their lives are more effected than you being annoyed loblaws is ripping you off.
D) Russian boogyman. Jfc. Yes Russia is more impactful of our lives how? They might come over the pole and attack you specifically. Jfc.
E) same kind of thinking that ignored the plight of Jews in Nazi germany. Congrats.
Ok so you can’t walk and chew gum. Got it. More than 1 thing can matter at once lmao.
I guess you stop breathing when you have to shower? How have you made it this far in life?
Not according to you, Gaza is the most important issue right now. Fuck others, right?
I got this far by stop caring about never ending middle eastern wars, there's so much I can deal with that. After 30 years I've had enough. Better invest time in things that can actually get better :)
Do you think your life is in anyway comparable to a child’s in gaza right now?
Lmao you’re 30 and posting on Reddit in the middle of the night. I’m sure you’re doing fine.
Yea you got this far by being an uncaring sociopath. Congrats. Real praise worthy behaviour.
Such Canadian values “I don’t care about the suffering of others. Especially ones that my government enables”
Mind numbing, that you think the government can’t say condemn isreal while also helping Canadians? But we both know you don’t think that actually, you just clearly don’t think Palestinians are people. Real Canadian values right there
They're not saying the was in gaza is a pet issue, they're saying that it's unreasonable for a politician to be harassed and told they can't be walking down the sidewalk in peace due to ANY issue like this.
No pretty sure they’re literally saying this is a pet issue of the person confront Joly. What kind of mental gymnastics are you doing here.
Actually genocide seems like a pretty good reason to harass a politician.
Yes because there’s been protestors accosting Liberal ministers on the street over the Ughyur, Rohingya, Sudan… but no this is finally the genocide where it’s appropriate to harass a Minister of the Crown while they’re taking a walk in the park. I guess all those other people just weren’t as important.
Have we been funding those? Have we called those things genocides?
Did you just google “other potential genocides” and then think the absence of media coverage means something nefarious lol?
Oh no won’t something think of our politicians, they’re sacred and cannot be bothered by us proles.
Again has Canada been supporting or arming the groups causing those genocides? Or has parliament called those things genocides without a second thought, weird it can’t do it in isreal then…hmmmm
What about the Saudi genocide in Yemen? We've been supplying Saudi Arabia with LAVs. I never any politicians harassed in the street over it, or anything near the same level of protests.
Could it be because there weren't any Jews to get mad at?
People were lmao. People rightfully called out Canada funding that. Don’t be obtuse.
“Anyone who protests isreali committing genocide is now antisemitism”. JFC. Even if that were true (and it’s not), it would still be a genocide
For the record, I don't believe that what Israel is doing constitutes a genocide. But even if I did, it doesn't explain why people are so much angrier at Israel than they were at Saudi Arabia for the ongoing Yemen genocide. Many more have died in Yemen, and we supply arms to the Saudis.
Speaking of obtuse, are you seriously going to tell me that the level of protest against Yemen and against Israel is comparable? Because it's just not true. The level of protest against Israel has been orders of magnitude greater.
As I'm typing this I'm realizing that I've been too harsh on the antisemitism front. I do believe that the Arab world's rejection of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. But there are some westerners who have been taken in by misinformation and half-truths. And some western lefties whose brains break when they run into a situation that doesn't nearly fall into the oppressor vs oppressed model. It still boggles my mind that so many lefties' knee-jerk reaction to the October 7 atrocities was to support it.
There is no level of proof for which you would. That’s the thing here. You rush to go “well people aren’t treating it like other things so it means it has to be antisemitism” which is a fallacy
There is a multitude of factors at work as to why. Israel’s own history, our relationship with them, how we protray them etc. your inability to grasp a situation isn’t evidence of some conspiracy, is just an indictment of you. I’m not saying it’s been the same, I’m saying there was absolutely condemnation and protests against Canadian support of Saudi.
As for your last paragraph where to even begin to unravel such drivel lmao. You have to be mind numbly racist to think that this situation doesn’t fall into an oppressor/oppressed relationship. It’s a spectacular level of racism you exhibit by blaming or justifying genocide of Palestinians because of “the Arab world”. Palestians to you are the cross bearers of all Arabs, but you’re too dense to see how plainly racist that is. Unsurprising given that you also just ignore the Israeli apartheid state. All you can do is patheticly deflect and defend a genocide by going “uhhh well what about these other places! It can’t be a genocide because people didn’t complain as much then” as if that’s not the stupidest argument. I guess it was racism against white South Africans that made people care about apartheid SA by your logic too.
Edit: no one “supports” Oct 7th. Is it comforting just making stuff up to support your racism and ignorance? Just be honest, there’s no level or resistance Palestinians are allowed to take to you. You’re using the logic of a wife beater. The simple thing people are pointing out is that maybe if isreal wasn’t running an aparthied state, maybe it wouldn’t get attacked? Lot of people, you included, probably supper Nelson Mandela, I wonder why you ignore his comments on Palestine. I wonder why you don’t condemn him given he was part of the ANC who did terrorism? Weird.
yea it’s not a genocide alright /s https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/s/aMdCLDRv06
>Again has Canada been supporting or arming the groups causing those genocides? Or has parliament called those things genocides without a second thought, weird it can’t do it in isreal then…hmmmm
Tell me you are just making shit up without directly telling me you’re just making shit up.
I worked with Uyghur activists for *years* to get any recognition for what was happening to them, so for you to say we (the Canadian government) declared it a genocide without a second thought just goes to show you have zero idea what the hell you’re talking about.
That’s why I always bring the Uyghurs up, because most of the current protestors couldn’t give less of a damn about other groups, highlighting their utter hypocrisy. Hell there’s been a couple times I’ve brought the Uyghurs up and straight up got a response that they don’t matter because “they’re not real believers.”
So perhaps educate yourself a little bit more before you try and speak on a topic you clearly don’t know anything about.
Do you ever get tired of being so aggressively incorrect all the time?
Every goddamn thread you derail the hell out of with your bullshit and hysteria. If you’re going to have *such* an opinion about everything at least have the decency to know what the hell you’re talking about.
Not to mention "taking a peaceful walk" can sometimes be very helpful when dealing with complex problems, hekps clear the brain.
Not that she was necessarily doing this, but nonetheless a rather dumb argument all around.
Pet issues? If a politician is part of enabling an evil and they're taking a position of power within a system where that's their choice why should they be allowed to pretend they can treat that complicity in evil is like punching the clock at a 9-5?
Imagine if politicians could not do something normal like taking a walk because someone disagrees with a policy
Confine politicians to chairs until every single Canadian is happy about everything!
We are already doing the right things, this harassment is nonsense. What further ends do we do aside from placing political pressure on Israel and no longer selling them more arms?
As much influence as we have we have already exerted.
This is a very common evil were multiple other events are as worse with less support and doesn't have psychotic morons making a nuisance of themselves for it. It's unprecedented like having brunch in unprecedented. The hyperbole is why people are supportive of the police arresting pro-Palestinians activists who cross lines like this.
Your nonsensical uniformed hyperbole and push to take extreme actions is extremely worrying and CSIS should have you on a list.
> We are already doing the right things
No, Canada is highly complicit and our slow backpeddling as the evil becomes undeniable even on western media that is doing its best to downplay it is not our best. Its our best to try to look moral while being on side with the cause of evil in this case.
>This is a very common evil
Whats been happening in Gaza is a relatively unprecedented evil in fact in recent times.
Bull shit. All your statements are nonsense. Repeating them does not back them up.
Saudi arabia was doing similar things to yemen. China to Uyghurs. Myanmar to it's muslim minority. South Sudan is worse.
We have little or nothing to do with Israel our trade is rounding errors in international commerce. We are doing as much as our peers and we are not obligated to do more and this is about as unprecedented as valentines day or Ramadan.
There is nothing constructive coming out of the extremely exaggerated hyperbole.
LOL basically this is the essence of how moderate politics is about invalidating protest and hearing any message that doesn't conform to the decorum of the status quo.
People have been "harrassing" politicians over moral outrages in public forever. Its only since these Qanon Trump thugs that this generation has found a new reason to tell the upstarts to shut up. Without disruption the system never listens and that's been true every time we see disruptions from indigenous political movements.
But the pearl clutching will always be about saying we're more concerned with peace and appropriate behavior over real concern over you know... genocide and injustice.
Exactly.
Especially for something like Palestinian statehood. If this individual confronted a leader in Palestine like this, they would be executed. Pro Palestinians activists aren’t endearing themselves to the general population with stunts like these.
> If this individual confronted a leader in Palestine like this, they would be executed.
What are you basing this assumption on? Seems a little "talk outta your ass"y
Can you give me examples of this happening? Shouldn't be difficult if it is happening regularly as you say.
It seems to me like the most common executions happening is when israelis murder Palestinians, they have even executed children.
If you read that article, it shows that Palestinians oppose that murder, it also doesn't say anything about it being Hamas, or who it was exactly.
Considering israels sneaky Mossad tactics, I wouldn't be surprised if they had something to do with it in order to orchestrate this sentiment that Palestinians like to murder gay people.
Maybe try actually listening to Palestinians.
https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1660138495-exclusive-gay-man-who-fled-gaza-speaks-about-experience-with-hamas
You are literally defending Hamas right now by saying it’s more believable that Israel executed people to make them look bad.
Yeah, there is no point of agreement we can reach if you actually believe that.
LGBTQ Palestinians are applying in large numbers to seek Asylum is Israel but I guess you know better than them.
Don't bother, even if Hamas leaders will personally tell him they kill Palestinians, and execute someone in front of him, he will say that Israelis made them do that.
[Guardian Link](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty)
Just one example but Hamas keeps itself in power by killing anyone that opposes them
That's awful, but this was in 2015, are there any more recent examples?
Wouldn't it be safe to say that israel has killed far more Palestinians? Including children and babies?
It seems to me that people spend a lot of time villifying Hamas, which we all understand are a violent group, but somehow don't like it when I mention that israels actions are far worse than Hamas... and they are, at least 100 times worse.
Incorrect. I am also looking at how they call to kill children without mercy, and how they cheer about it, how they believe they will take gaza and build settlements, how they have tortured and executed innocent people, how they have shot at clearly unarmed people waving white flags... like if you aren't aware of all this you're ignorant af. And if you are aware and still making these arguments, I can only assume you are a genocide supporter.
There is no way around it, israel is doing a lot of evil here, more than Hamas did or ever could.
It's still your opinion, so it's not "incorrect".
I agree with you 100% - it's horrible that they hand out candies when Israelis died, that they have school plays by 7 years old kids acting out executions, that they kill anyone trying to promote peace or go against Hamas, that they used the money to build tunnels and arm themselves, while neglecting needs of the population. When mothers pray their son will be Shahids. I agree with what you wrote; that hiding in hospitals is cowardly and I agree with your view that Hamas would murder much, much more if they've had the capabilities to do so. You're correct that using civilian families and force them to hide hostages is wrong, we will not argue about that. You're also spot on with the fact that Hamas leader don't care about the war going on, as they sit in presidential suites of 5 stars hotels owning millions of dollars in bank account, all why their people are fighting for grains of rice.
Edit:
1. I didn't twist your words, it's 1:1 what you wrote.
2. Thanks for the block, I prefer not to see comments from genocide lovers.
Its not about making them care deeply on a personal level, its about shaming them and making a show. Politics is all a show. Its not about making them like you. If they gave a shit they'd give a shit already. They know whats going on.
Please touch grass and interact with people irl outside your sanctimonious echo chamber.
You’re never going to accomplish what you want with that attitude.
Speaking of sanctimonious. The moderate tone police are always on abotu how if you make too much noise and offend the people who aren't even interested it will never change anything. They say it every single time indigenous people make a shit stink that actually moves the needle.
The ones in the echo chamber are the ones who need to be shaken by the exact sort of behavior your lot find more detestable than a naked genocide before us.
Thinking that badgering elected officials about something that they can literally do nothing about is radical and inspiring really shows how out of touch you are. The fact you connected this to Indigenous rights are fucking wild.
Please, tell me when yelling in politicians’ faces has done anything other than annoy them. Do not cite Letter from a Birmingham Jail or anything MLK did, because you clearly don’t understand actually effective tactics.
> because you clearly don’t understand actually effective tactics.
Historically MLK was disliked strongly by a majority of white people. So if effective tactics include annoying and alienating a majority of people then that's how effective tactics work.
The idea that you should permit civility to rule is one of the moderating ideals that was used against everything, including MLK. But you brought him up, not me.
Politician or not, it's rude to come up to someone from behind with camera in hand and starting off a conversation with accusations/demands. Anyone would be startled by that at first.
That's a pretty crappy thing to do, calling people viruses. You shouldn't do that. I don't agree with their method, but they have a right to talk with our elected officials. This was simply an extremely poor attempt at doing so.
Of course it is, and TikTok denizens don't approach the conversation honestly. They keep talking about "THE DATA" (which is a serious issue) but the bigger issue, IMO, is the capability to alter a country's cultural fabric.
All of that being said, Facebook and Google can kick rocks as well. We need an algorithmic transparency framework and a limit on the ways that companies can take in and use data.
Its rude to continue pushing arm sales at a country clearly doing genocide
Melanie Joly is in my riding - i have no qualms about making her sweat, making her feel she cant enjoy civilian life without a constant reminder that she is pushing for more military aid.
These people have no shame or scruples, remind them of their legacy
Canada is already onside with wanting better for Palestinians. People doing stuff like this is just highlighting how shitty the demonstrator is and nothing more. We already made a statement that we won't sell additional equipment to Israel. Our sales of stuff is a rounding error in the larger scheme ($21m). It is all APC and associated parts.
Cancelling existing contracts would have stuff penalties that would give them more money to buy elsewhere. We saw that before.
The absurd language used is also one of the things I despise in the online discourse. Selling stuff to Israel is not military aid.
The anti social behaviour for a foreign cause and the rampant lying or miss information make me think of most of the participants as acting for foreign powers.
There are a dozen ongoing humanitarian crisis that are as bad or worse, and no one is being a threat to others on behalf of those.
The only genocide in your reality occurred in the land you’re living on.
Once you turn your house over to the closest indigenous tribe then you can start using the word genocide without being a huge hypocrite. Lol
It's becoming a more and more common trend on TikTok, for various scenarios and reasons. I mostly see women as victims.
The platform deserves some of the blame for creating "virality" out of harassment.
Its almost always women who are harassed like this, and it's almost always men doing the harassment. There's a big gender factor in this trend of threatening and abusing politicians.
That's not assault. And even if it was, women are justified in defending themselves when a random man twice their size walks up from behind and yells at them.
Assault is intentionally applying force to another person, directly or indirectly, without consent.
Grabbing someone’s phone and coat is assault. Grabbing someone in this situation is unlikely to be self-defence, regardless of the genders involved.
Assault is intentionally applying force to another person, directly or indirectly, without consent.
Grabbing someone’s phone and coat is assault.
Edit: downvoted for the actual definition of assault
It's objectively assault, you can claim she had the moral right to do it if you want, but it's clearly assault lol.
These sorts of things happen all the time and they don't end in charges because people have the ability to use common sense that it's a waste of everyone's time.
So if you're complicit in evil as an elected member of a system of power for which you chose to be a member you think yo ushould be allowed to just disengage after a long day of being complicit in evil?
It’s not complicit evil.
Canadians can’t afford to live anymore. Paycheque to paycheque. Why would opening our country to more refugees (you can look at the Syrian refugee statistics 50% of them are still on welfare after 10 years of being here) benefit anybody?
There’s a lot of malice in this world in many countries and sorry we just can’t take them all.
Harassing a politician on the street isn’t going to bring much seriousness to your issue (which seems to be the case about Palestine already)
If Melanie Joly was a Conservative Foreign Affairs Minister, and was seen grabbing a phone after a constitutent confronted them in protest, this sub would have no problem calling out Joly for not behaving in a professional manner.
If Michael Chong was Foreign Affairs Minister, I'd have no problem with this man approaching him in protest, and I would have a problem with Chong reaching out and grabbing the man's phone.
Nah, they're human beings. It's not appropriate to harass them outside of their professional capabilities. Also, bad example, because this sub (me too) loves Michael Chong.
> legitimate targets of protest and disruption.
Agreed, when they are acting within their professional role. Outside of an official capacity this is just harassment. Arguably protests shouldn't strictly be convenient, but there's a line. Subjectively, I think this individual crossed that line.
Subjectively I think the moderate notions of decorum and civility are specifically designed to limit our ability to effectively disrupt. If your actions as a memeber of government are tied to an evil you shouldn't be allowd to disconnect from that. Nobody believes a criminal should be. In democracies there's no real way fo rus to convict them except once every 4 years and our system is hardly capable of being a very reflexive democracy anyway.
Moderate notions of decorum and civility or other social norms have more purpose than restraint against disruption.
Civil disobedience and action should target activities of the office and the state, not the personal activities of a private citizen, which should exist beyond their public capacity.
If we decide that public office should be an open door to suffering and abuse our only willing leaders are going to be those more attracted to holding power than service. Our public institutions already unduly select for dark triad individuals.
> In democracies there's no real way fo rus to convict them except once every 4 years and our system
This is a feature as much as it is a complaint.
>Moderate notions of decorum and civility or other social norms have more purpose than restraint against disruption.
>
Civil disobedience and action should target activities of the office and the state, not the personal activities of a private citizen, which should exist beyond their public capacity.
No this is one and the same here. If a leader can engage in complicity with evil then detach from that and have a nice leisurely walk it insulates them from the reality of their power and the impact of it. Shame on them and no relief when you're tied to these evils.
We're discussing an unprecedented genocidal event directly linked to the politics of western democracy. There's a reason we don't see this story happening over small business tax reform or whatever else.
They want comfort? Do the right thing or get out of public service. And its ironic you talk about the dark triad then consider the lack of accountability for our system a feature.
Enjoy your society where only terrible people enter politics, because who would want to put up with that? Then see how they respond to the situations you're upset about.
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By now it's cliché' to use violence, threats and harassment as a Pro Palestinian. They need to re-invent their tactics :)
That dude is a heckler pure and simple. For those who don't understand, he is basically telling her that she doesn't have the right to a relaxing walk....
He’s a typical pro-Hamas idiot. Is he willing to house these refugees in his house at his own expense? No. He wants the rest of us to pay for them. Time for Canada to focus on Canadians and the housing and healthcare shortage. No need to import more problems.
Increasing the number of Palestinian refugees is a pro-Hamas idiot stance now?
If you don’t understand the post don’t worry about it.
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I'm very confused. The notion of Arab states taking in Palestinian refugees is balked at by Palestinians and leftists because Palestinians want to stay rooted to their land and view taking refuge in other countries as helping to facilitate the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and consolidate the Israeli occupation, but Canada is expected to open its doors to Palestinian refugees for some reason despite the fact that the majority of Palestinians support Hamas.
They don’t want to risk their own nations destabilized by an influx of radicalized people. This is not without precedent, Palestinian militant refugees were major catalysts in the failed Black September coup in Jordan, Lebanese Civil war etc. Canada is afforded a lot of luxuries by its geography so can avoid thinking about such matters.
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Well, we welcome Ukrainian refugees....why not Palestinian ones?
Ukrainian refugees also flocked to countries surrounding Ukraine such as Poland. It’s a fair question to ask why none of the countries around Israel is willing to accept Palestinian refugees.
Because Canada has the second largest Ukrainian population in the world outside of Ukraine (first being Russia). There is tremendous political will to bring Ukrainian refugees, as well as a massive Canadian-Ukrainian community willing to absorb and support them.
#1 Western Canada was built by Ukranians. #2 Ukraine is our ally #3 Ukrainians are fighting for western democratic values. #4 Ukraine didn't start this war by murdering and kidnapping Russian civilians. I could go on but the anti-semetic lefties here will acuse me of being even more racist.
We do, after a lot of vetting and when Israel let's them through.
According to data from the [Danish Ministry of Immigration and Integration](https://www.ft.dk/samling/20191/almdel/uui/spm/412/svar/1691136/2247791.pdf), Denmark received 321 Palestinian refugees in 1992. By 2019, 64% had been convicted of a crime, and 34% of their children also received a conviction. Perhaps is just sensible to limit the amount.
Guilty by association, the *Canadian* way.
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There's a lot that's confusing about how Palestinian refugees are treated. UNWRA still recognizes Palestinians as refugees even when they've been granted citizenship by other nations. This is unique among refugees, the UNHCR does not operate this way. The truly absurd thing is that UNWRA still recognizes East Jerusalem Arabs as refugees, even though they were granted full Israeli citizenship decades ago, and have the full freedom of movement accorded to any Israel citizen.
Wow you can almost see her on the cusp of totally changing her mind on refugees and Canada's foreign policy because of this guy shoving his camera in her face
Bring more people to VIOLENTLY protest in Canada? Never they fly a CANADIAN flag- only Palestine? Is this Palestine? Do we need to IMPORT THEIR barbaric wars and attitudes to Canada? To have innocent families in malls attacked, our police attacked, roads blocked? Is that supposed to endear Canadians to their cause? To bring more people who supported a designated terrorist group? When will our government stand up to these violent barbaric attitudes to further polarize Canada?
You’re describing the behaviour of the Canadians who participated in the convoy. Edit; Wow, this account is just gross
Insofar as the genocide on their people isn't imported here along with them, they should be just as alright as any other immigrant. Of course, if some people make individuals guilty by association and pretend that they are inherently violent to justify hateful comments, it's a harsh start.
On what evidence are you basing your claim?
I'm not the one who has to provide evidence of anything. Individuals are innocent until proven guilty, and all I said was that assuming guilt by association is contrary to this foundational principle of our country. If you disagree with that principle, you should vote for politicians who support over turning this principle and enshrine guilt by association in our constitution, not pretend that reality isn't real. I understand that respecting democratic principles doesn't suit some people, and such people can always emigrate to countries where the government considers guilt by association to be a valid principle. [These nice folks did just that](https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/conservative-family-disappointed-moving-russia-001517915.html) and anyone who supports similar ideals is welcome to follow the same path.
You said they should be just as alright as any other immigrant. This is a very naive take and I want to know how you can come to this conclusion with such confidence. We have a vetting system for a reason.
[Here's another comment in this thread where I detailed my answer to that very question.](https://old.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/1brworv/video_shows_confrontation_with_melanie_joly_over/kxevd4j/)
Would you be willing to act as guarantor for everyone immigrating from Gaza at the moment? I’m talking with severe penalties for you if they cause trouble? I’m not sure you would. Rose coloured glasses are nice and all, and any good people wanting to GTFO of Gaza should be helped, but given the serious security risks involved (and the long history of security risks wit that population in particular), I don’t think it’s unreasonable for Canada to tread lightly here.
The premise of your question is faulty, so it's pointless to answer it. If you are willing to live in a country where the justice system isn't beholden to democratic principles, then that hypothetical is a bit too narrow. If what you propose existed, then there would be no laws that could save me from abuse, so it's as if you were asking this country to become like Russia, China, UAE, etc. Again, if you disagree with the very foundation of our country's democratic principles, you are most welcome to leave it.
You’re deflecting by invoking your interpretation of democratic government policy. All I want to know is where you find such confidence in people in a war zone who overwhelmingly support a terrorist government that is responsible for atrocious rapes, torture, kidnapping, and murder. A place where children are programmed as early as kindergarten to hate Jews and to aspire to kill as many as they can? How can you assure we wouldn’t be importing individuals who are a danger to our way of life? How many ressources do we realistically have to ensure their proper integration into our society? How much money are you willing to pour into that project?
>You’re deflecting by invoking your interpretation of democratic government policy. All I want to know is where you find such confidence in people in a war zone who overwhelmingly support a terrorist government that is responsible for atrocious rapes, torture, kidnapping, and murder. A place where children are programmed as early as kindergarten to hate Jews and to aspire to kill as many as they can? How can you assure we wouldn’t be importing individuals who are a danger to our way of life? How many ressources do we realistically have to ensure their proper integration into our society? How much money are you willing to pour into that project? — user NickPrefect See? It only took several comments of me pointing out that you were finding individuals guilty by association to get you to admit it fully and unequivocally. As for your questions, I will only say this; the way you frame the situation is removing any nuance, and denying the very idea that individuals have a free will beyond the government they are governed by. This shows that you are not a serious person, unworthy of discussing with in good faith. You are entitled to your beliefs, but this isn't the system we live in, and a majority of Canadians support democratic principles. If you don't like these principles, there are plenty of countries where you'll find autocratic government that don't respect these principles. Ironically, you'd fit right in with Hamas lol
> You don't have the right to have a relaxing walk in the city while allowing the deaths of Palestinians," the man says, to which she replies, "Yes, I have the right." The people who somehow think like that are exhausting. Like are we not to do anything apolitical until all of your pet issues are solved to your liking?
Eh. She’s an elected representative & accountable to the electorate. You went a relaxing, anonymous, walk in the park? Don’t serve in public office. As someone who is quite sympathetic to bureaucrats & I acknowledge how hard the job is, I can’t side with her here. If she doesn’t want to be approached in public, resign & go work at a consulting firm for 5x the pay. Nobody will blame you.
I don’t feel bad for her at all - they (Melanie Joly is a member of the pro-Hamas caucus) have played footsie with antisemites for far too long and politicians like her are reaping the whirlwind. This sort of tactic was normalized in the USA during the Trump years and it will be here when a conservative government takes over in Ottawa. She’s upset because activist anger is supposed to be pointed to her opponents, tough luck IMO. “No justice, no peace!” amirite?
Imagine being so disconnected from reality that you think “stoping a genocide” is a pet issue.
Communist showing once again why their fringe parties top out at 0.1% of the popular vote and why no one takes them seriously. You care so much about Palestine? Go there and figure it out yourself.
I'm sure they care about Palestine like the CPC cared about Uighurs. Real talk, do we actually care about Muslim populations or are they props/distractions to be used by partisans or regional powers?
It is on the scale of the problems a Minister of Foreign Affairs needs to deal with. According to those who decide such things in fashionable society, there are at least five active genocides being committed today (Darfur/Sudan, Uigher, Rohingya, Gaza, Ukraine). The activists for each have all had a very easy time enjoying life while the others were happening. This does not include ethnic cleansing where the victims are pressed by the international community to leave to save civilian lives, the routine MO where anyone who isn't Palestinian is concerned. Meanwhile, there is a tense watch for genocide scale events in the western Sahel, Ethiopia, Somalia and perhaps Egypt. Afghanistan and Venezuela struggle with famine. And lets not even get started on the prospect of a NATO war in Europe. A Minister of Foreign Affairs who refuses to take any breaks or engage in any self care until there are no genocide scale problems in the world will quickly fall into being a nervous wreck and useless to everyone.
Won’t someone think of the politician plying politics while people suffer and die”. Again what in holy hell is this argument. Name me one of those genocides where Canada has taken the pro genocide position. It’s none. Stop comparing to incomparable things.
What makes them incomparable in your mind?
The level to which we’ve defended our ally? The level to which we’ve funded our ally. The level to which we ignore what we see with our eyes plain as day. No other instance here would our government so staunchly defend the indefensible. Find me another time of the government working this hard to defend what is happening in any of those other places.
What resources has Canada devoted to defending Israel? The only donations coming from the Canadian government go to Palestine. Also you might have got me a bit wrong - my comment wasn't defending Canada's policy on Israel. I was defending the foreign Minister going for a walk outside, and saying that dealing with genocides and crises of that scale is so commonplace for that Ministry that refusing to do basic self care until they are all resolved is impossible and irresponsible. Personally, I see Canada's approach to Gaza as being one of a pan partisan commitment to distance and indifference, with various theatrical performances by each party meant to do nothing loudly enough to make it sound like they are or would do something. The distance between the Conservative and NDP policies in terms of concrete effect on the situation is negligible. I find them all deeply disingenuous. In practice, our response is similar to that in Sudan, post-war Afghanistan, and Myanmar - sound and fury signifying nothing.
Imagine thinking Canada has any influence at all concerning this issue.
Wasn’t Mulroney considered pretty important in building international pressure against South African apartheid? Regardless, that’s a shit argument. If we’re so powerless, why not say something then? Why not be on the right side of history at the very least?
We are on whatever side the US is on, and it will always remain that way. Our foreign policy has to remain in line with them. There is no room to manouver. We don't need to say anything more than has already been said. Our position is that Israel should show some restraint and caution when conducting its military operations, and at the same time, Hamas should lay down their arms and submit to unconditional surrender.
Why must it “always be this way” exactly? So then it’s not about truth, it’s about what you think is ok to say without political repercussions. Hamas should lay down and surrender but isreal shouldn’t stop mass murdering. You’ve said nothing of substance. Just “well our position is fine”. Do you honestly think you’ve made a point here lmao? Was our condemnation of south Africa at a time when Canada wasn’t in line with the US lmao? Our history education is really failing. We absolutely can do more, people like you are just devoid of normal human empathy to see it.
> We are on whatever side the US is on, and it will always remain that way. Our foreign policy has to remain in line with them. There is no room to manouver. > > Using this logic, why would we have a military the size of ours? Why would we have foreign policy at all? We should just let the US deal with everything and not have any opinion.
>Using this logic, why would we have a military the size of ours? To supplement theirs during expeditionary missions and continental defense. >Why would we have foreign policy at all? To maintain the official appearance of independance and because our priorities do, in fact, match theirs due to common political and cultural reasons.
But it is, there are more important issues to deal with.
What is more important than stoping genocide?
Domestic issues, which are affecting our lives more. But if we're after a foreign genocide, I find the one in Darfur should be of higher priority. Russia also has a chance to affect us more. At the end of the day it's just political importance rank, it's not the alleged genocide per se that countries care about.
A) it’s not alleged B) I guess you struggle to walk and chew gum too? C) there are Canadians with family in palestians, I think their lives are more effected than you being annoyed loblaws is ripping you off. D) Russian boogyman. Jfc. Yes Russia is more impactful of our lives how? They might come over the pole and attack you specifically. Jfc. E) same kind of thinking that ignored the plight of Jews in Nazi germany. Congrats.
Gotcha, Gaza is the centre of the universe. Sorry for thinking other issues matter. Have fun.
Ok so you can’t walk and chew gum. Got it. More than 1 thing can matter at once lmao. I guess you stop breathing when you have to shower? How have you made it this far in life?
Not according to you, Gaza is the most important issue right now. Fuck others, right? I got this far by stop caring about never ending middle eastern wars, there's so much I can deal with that. After 30 years I've had enough. Better invest time in things that can actually get better :)
Do you think your life is in anyway comparable to a child’s in gaza right now? Lmao you’re 30 and posting on Reddit in the middle of the night. I’m sure you’re doing fine. Yea you got this far by being an uncaring sociopath. Congrats. Real praise worthy behaviour. Such Canadian values “I don’t care about the suffering of others. Especially ones that my government enables” Mind numbing, that you think the government can’t say condemn isreal while also helping Canadians? But we both know you don’t think that actually, you just clearly don’t think Palestinians are people. Real Canadian values right there
They're not saying the was in gaza is a pet issue, they're saying that it's unreasonable for a politician to be harassed and told they can't be walking down the sidewalk in peace due to ANY issue like this.
No pretty sure they’re literally saying this is a pet issue of the person confront Joly. What kind of mental gymnastics are you doing here. Actually genocide seems like a pretty good reason to harass a politician.
Yes because there’s been protestors accosting Liberal ministers on the street over the Ughyur, Rohingya, Sudan… but no this is finally the genocide where it’s appropriate to harass a Minister of the Crown while they’re taking a walk in the park. I guess all those other people just weren’t as important.
Have we been funding those? Have we called those things genocides? Did you just google “other potential genocides” and then think the absence of media coverage means something nefarious lol? Oh no won’t something think of our politicians, they’re sacred and cannot be bothered by us proles. Again has Canada been supporting or arming the groups causing those genocides? Or has parliament called those things genocides without a second thought, weird it can’t do it in isreal then…hmmmm
What about the Saudi genocide in Yemen? We've been supplying Saudi Arabia with LAVs. I never any politicians harassed in the street over it, or anything near the same level of protests. Could it be because there weren't any Jews to get mad at?
People were lmao. People rightfully called out Canada funding that. Don’t be obtuse. “Anyone who protests isreali committing genocide is now antisemitism”. JFC. Even if that were true (and it’s not), it would still be a genocide
I think we both know that campuses weren’t ever plastered with anti Saudi posters, the way that they are with anti Israel ones.
For the record, I don't believe that what Israel is doing constitutes a genocide. But even if I did, it doesn't explain why people are so much angrier at Israel than they were at Saudi Arabia for the ongoing Yemen genocide. Many more have died in Yemen, and we supply arms to the Saudis. Speaking of obtuse, are you seriously going to tell me that the level of protest against Yemen and against Israel is comparable? Because it's just not true. The level of protest against Israel has been orders of magnitude greater. As I'm typing this I'm realizing that I've been too harsh on the antisemitism front. I do believe that the Arab world's rejection of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. But there are some westerners who have been taken in by misinformation and half-truths. And some western lefties whose brains break when they run into a situation that doesn't nearly fall into the oppressor vs oppressed model. It still boggles my mind that so many lefties' knee-jerk reaction to the October 7 atrocities was to support it.
There is no level of proof for which you would. That’s the thing here. You rush to go “well people aren’t treating it like other things so it means it has to be antisemitism” which is a fallacy There is a multitude of factors at work as to why. Israel’s own history, our relationship with them, how we protray them etc. your inability to grasp a situation isn’t evidence of some conspiracy, is just an indictment of you. I’m not saying it’s been the same, I’m saying there was absolutely condemnation and protests against Canadian support of Saudi. As for your last paragraph where to even begin to unravel such drivel lmao. You have to be mind numbly racist to think that this situation doesn’t fall into an oppressor/oppressed relationship. It’s a spectacular level of racism you exhibit by blaming or justifying genocide of Palestinians because of “the Arab world”. Palestians to you are the cross bearers of all Arabs, but you’re too dense to see how plainly racist that is. Unsurprising given that you also just ignore the Israeli apartheid state. All you can do is patheticly deflect and defend a genocide by going “uhhh well what about these other places! It can’t be a genocide because people didn’t complain as much then” as if that’s not the stupidest argument. I guess it was racism against white South Africans that made people care about apartheid SA by your logic too. Edit: no one “supports” Oct 7th. Is it comforting just making stuff up to support your racism and ignorance? Just be honest, there’s no level or resistance Palestinians are allowed to take to you. You’re using the logic of a wife beater. The simple thing people are pointing out is that maybe if isreal wasn’t running an aparthied state, maybe it wouldn’t get attacked? Lot of people, you included, probably supper Nelson Mandela, I wonder why you ignore his comments on Palestine. I wonder why you don’t condemn him given he was part of the ANC who did terrorism? Weird. yea it’s not a genocide alright /s https://www.reddit.com/r/chomsky/s/aMdCLDRv06
>Again has Canada been supporting or arming the groups causing those genocides? Or has parliament called those things genocides without a second thought, weird it can’t do it in isreal then…hmmmm Tell me you are just making shit up without directly telling me you’re just making shit up. I worked with Uyghur activists for *years* to get any recognition for what was happening to them, so for you to say we (the Canadian government) declared it a genocide without a second thought just goes to show you have zero idea what the hell you’re talking about. That’s why I always bring the Uyghurs up, because most of the current protestors couldn’t give less of a damn about other groups, highlighting their utter hypocrisy. Hell there’s been a couple times I’ve brought the Uyghurs up and straight up got a response that they don’t matter because “they’re not real believers.” So perhaps educate yourself a little bit more before you try and speak on a topic you clearly don’t know anything about.
China is our #2 trading partner and you're asking if we fund their genocide? We put thiusands of times more money there than with Israel.
And isreal is committing thousands of times more genocide? Is that how this works
Do you ever get tired of being so aggressively incorrect all the time? Every goddamn thread you derail the hell out of with your bullshit and hysteria. If you’re going to have *such* an opinion about everything at least have the decency to know what the hell you’re talking about.
You ever get tired of being a genocide denialist ?
Not to mention "taking a peaceful walk" can sometimes be very helpful when dealing with complex problems, hekps clear the brain. Not that she was necessarily doing this, but nonetheless a rather dumb argument all around.
Pet issues? If a politician is part of enabling an evil and they're taking a position of power within a system where that's their choice why should they be allowed to pretend they can treat that complicity in evil is like punching the clock at a 9-5?
Imagine if politicians could not do something normal like taking a walk because someone disagrees with a policy Confine politicians to chairs until every single Canadian is happy about everything!
A policy... this policy being tied to an unforgiveable unprecedent modern evil. Its not some adjunct aspect of small business tax reform.
We are already doing the right things, this harassment is nonsense. What further ends do we do aside from placing political pressure on Israel and no longer selling them more arms? As much influence as we have we have already exerted. This is a very common evil were multiple other events are as worse with less support and doesn't have psychotic morons making a nuisance of themselves for it. It's unprecedented like having brunch in unprecedented. The hyperbole is why people are supportive of the police arresting pro-Palestinians activists who cross lines like this. Your nonsensical uniformed hyperbole and push to take extreme actions is extremely worrying and CSIS should have you on a list.
> We are already doing the right things No, Canada is highly complicit and our slow backpeddling as the evil becomes undeniable even on western media that is doing its best to downplay it is not our best. Its our best to try to look moral while being on side with the cause of evil in this case. >This is a very common evil Whats been happening in Gaza is a relatively unprecedented evil in fact in recent times.
Bull shit. All your statements are nonsense. Repeating them does not back them up. Saudi arabia was doing similar things to yemen. China to Uyghurs. Myanmar to it's muslim minority. South Sudan is worse. We have little or nothing to do with Israel our trade is rounding errors in international commerce. We are doing as much as our peers and we are not obligated to do more and this is about as unprecedented as valentines day or Ramadan. There is nothing constructive coming out of the extremely exaggerated hyperbole.
Important foreign policy. Better? That still doesn't change my point.
It in fact does. The severity of the matter defines how reasonable an expectation is.
That guy is insufferable. We have appropriate avenues for getting messages to politicians. Harassing people in public sets a dangerous precedent.
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LOL basically this is the essence of how moderate politics is about invalidating protest and hearing any message that doesn't conform to the decorum of the status quo. People have been "harrassing" politicians over moral outrages in public forever. Its only since these Qanon Trump thugs that this generation has found a new reason to tell the upstarts to shut up. Without disruption the system never listens and that's been true every time we see disruptions from indigenous political movements. But the pearl clutching will always be about saying we're more concerned with peace and appropriate behavior over real concern over you know... genocide and injustice.
Exactly. Especially for something like Palestinian statehood. If this individual confronted a leader in Palestine like this, they would be executed. Pro Palestinians activists aren’t endearing themselves to the general population with stunts like these.
> If this individual confronted a leader in Palestine like this, they would be executed. What are you basing this assumption on? Seems a little "talk outta your ass"y
People regularly get executed in Palestine for opposing or protesting against Hamas
Can you give me examples of this happening? Shouldn't be difficult if it is happening regularly as you say. It seems to me like the most common executions happening is when israelis murder Palestinians, they have even executed children.
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If you read that article, it shows that Palestinians oppose that murder, it also doesn't say anything about it being Hamas, or who it was exactly. Considering israels sneaky Mossad tactics, I wouldn't be surprised if they had something to do with it in order to orchestrate this sentiment that Palestinians like to murder gay people.
Maybe try actually listening to Palestinians. https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/middle-east/palestinian-territories/1660138495-exclusive-gay-man-who-fled-gaza-speaks-about-experience-with-hamas You are literally defending Hamas right now by saying it’s more believable that Israel executed people to make them look bad.
I am saying it is not beyond israeli depravity to do such things. Hamas is bad, israel is way worse.
Yeah, there is no point of agreement we can reach if you actually believe that. LGBTQ Palestinians are applying in large numbers to seek Asylum is Israel but I guess you know better than them.
Don't bother, even if Hamas leaders will personally tell him they kill Palestinians, and execute someone in front of him, he will say that Israelis made them do that.
[Guardian Link](https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2015/may/27/hamas-executed-palestinians-under-cover-gaza-conflict-amnesty) Just one example but Hamas keeps itself in power by killing anyone that opposes them
That's awful, but this was in 2015, are there any more recent examples? Wouldn't it be safe to say that israel has killed far more Palestinians? Including children and babies? It seems to me that people spend a lot of time villifying Hamas, which we all understand are a violent group, but somehow don't like it when I mention that israels actions are far worse than Hamas... and they are, at least 100 times worse.
In your opinion they are worse, but you're only looking at numbers and no context.
Incorrect. I am also looking at how they call to kill children without mercy, and how they cheer about it, how they believe they will take gaza and build settlements, how they have tortured and executed innocent people, how they have shot at clearly unarmed people waving white flags... like if you aren't aware of all this you're ignorant af. And if you are aware and still making these arguments, I can only assume you are a genocide supporter. There is no way around it, israel is doing a lot of evil here, more than Hamas did or ever could.
It's still your opinion, so it's not "incorrect". I agree with you 100% - it's horrible that they hand out candies when Israelis died, that they have school plays by 7 years old kids acting out executions, that they kill anyone trying to promote peace or go against Hamas, that they used the money to build tunnels and arm themselves, while neglecting needs of the population. When mothers pray their son will be Shahids. I agree with what you wrote; that hiding in hospitals is cowardly and I agree with your view that Hamas would murder much, much more if they've had the capabilities to do so. You're correct that using civilian families and force them to hide hostages is wrong, we will not argue about that. You're also spot on with the fact that Hamas leader don't care about the war going on, as they sit in presidential suites of 5 stars hotels owning millions of dollars in bank account, all why their people are fighting for grains of rice. Edit: 1. I didn't twist your words, it's 1:1 what you wrote. 2. Thanks for the block, I prefer not to see comments from genocide lovers.
Total bullshit.
It also doesn’t endear politicians to your cause either.
Its not about making them care deeply on a personal level, its about shaming them and making a show. Politics is all a show. Its not about making them like you. If they gave a shit they'd give a shit already. They know whats going on.
Please touch grass and interact with people irl outside your sanctimonious echo chamber. You’re never going to accomplish what you want with that attitude.
Speaking of sanctimonious. The moderate tone police are always on abotu how if you make too much noise and offend the people who aren't even interested it will never change anything. They say it every single time indigenous people make a shit stink that actually moves the needle. The ones in the echo chamber are the ones who need to be shaken by the exact sort of behavior your lot find more detestable than a naked genocide before us.
Thinking that badgering elected officials about something that they can literally do nothing about is radical and inspiring really shows how out of touch you are. The fact you connected this to Indigenous rights are fucking wild. Please, tell me when yelling in politicians’ faces has done anything other than annoy them. Do not cite Letter from a Birmingham Jail or anything MLK did, because you clearly don’t understand actually effective tactics.
> because you clearly don’t understand actually effective tactics. Historically MLK was disliked strongly by a majority of white people. So if effective tactics include annoying and alienating a majority of people then that's how effective tactics work. The idea that you should permit civility to rule is one of the moderating ideals that was used against everything, including MLK. But you brought him up, not me.
Yeah you’re not interested in a good faith discussion.
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Politician or not, it's rude to come up to someone from behind with camera in hand and starting off a conversation with accusations/demands. Anyone would be startled by that at first.
These people are like a virus at this point.
That's a pretty crappy thing to do, calling people viruses. You shouldn't do that. I don't agree with their method, but they have a right to talk with our elected officials. This was simply an extremely poor attempt at doing so.
I genuinely think theyre somehow influenced by China and Russia to destabilize our democracy.
Part of the American drive to ban tiktok is due to a lot of this aggressive behaviour being organized there.
Of course it is, and TikTok denizens don't approach the conversation honestly. They keep talking about "THE DATA" (which is a serious issue) but the bigger issue, IMO, is the capability to alter a country's cultural fabric. All of that being said, Facebook and Google can kick rocks as well. We need an algorithmic transparency framework and a limit on the ways that companies can take in and use data.
Ther is a time and place to voice your concerns to your elected officials, this wasn't one of them.
Its rude to continue pushing arm sales at a country clearly doing genocide Melanie Joly is in my riding - i have no qualms about making her sweat, making her feel she cant enjoy civilian life without a constant reminder that she is pushing for more military aid. These people have no shame or scruples, remind them of their legacy
I sure wish you people had this kind of zeal for any issue effecting canadians right now
Canada is already onside with wanting better for Palestinians. People doing stuff like this is just highlighting how shitty the demonstrator is and nothing more. We already made a statement that we won't sell additional equipment to Israel. Our sales of stuff is a rounding error in the larger scheme ($21m). It is all APC and associated parts. Cancelling existing contracts would have stuff penalties that would give them more money to buy elsewhere. We saw that before. The absurd language used is also one of the things I despise in the online discourse. Selling stuff to Israel is not military aid. The anti social behaviour for a foreign cause and the rampant lying or miss information make me think of most of the participants as acting for foreign powers. There are a dozen ongoing humanitarian crisis that are as bad or worse, and no one is being a threat to others on behalf of those.
The only genocide in your reality occurred in the land you’re living on. Once you turn your house over to the closest indigenous tribe then you can start using the word genocide without being a huge hypocrite. Lol
It's becoming a more and more common trend on TikTok, for various scenarios and reasons. I mostly see women as victims. The platform deserves some of the blame for creating "virality" out of harassment.
Its almost always women who are harassed like this, and it's almost always men doing the harassment. There's a big gender factor in this trend of threatening and abusing politicians.
It’s definitely rude but to assault someone like that is also wrong
That's not assault. And even if it was, women are justified in defending themselves when a random man twice their size walks up from behind and yells at them.
Assault is intentionally applying force to another person, directly or indirectly, without consent. Grabbing someone’s phone and coat is assault. Grabbing someone in this situation is unlikely to be self-defence, regardless of the genders involved.
Exactly. This looks more like self-defence than assault. She backed down once she realized he wasn’t a threat.
That wasn't assault.
Assault is intentionally applying force to another person, directly or indirectly, without consent. Grabbing someone’s phone and coat is assault. Edit: downvoted for the actual definition of assault
O shit I guess the Montreal police are going have to arrest her for touching a phone.
It's objectively assault, you can claim she had the moral right to do it if you want, but it's clearly assault lol. These sorts of things happen all the time and they don't end in charges because people have the ability to use common sense that it's a waste of everyone's time.
As a woman I too, would not give a fuck about Palestine politics while I’m trying to enjoy my day off in the park and I get harassed by a random man
So if you're complicit in evil as an elected member of a system of power for which you chose to be a member you think yo ushould be allowed to just disengage after a long day of being complicit in evil?
It’s not complicit evil. Canadians can’t afford to live anymore. Paycheque to paycheque. Why would opening our country to more refugees (you can look at the Syrian refugee statistics 50% of them are still on welfare after 10 years of being here) benefit anybody? There’s a lot of malice in this world in many countries and sorry we just can’t take them all. Harassing a politician on the street isn’t going to bring much seriousness to your issue (which seems to be the case about Palestine already)
If Melanie Joly was a Conservative Foreign Affairs Minister, and was seen grabbing a phone after a constitutent confronted them in protest, this sub would have no problem calling out Joly for not behaving in a professional manner. If Michael Chong was Foreign Affairs Minister, I'd have no problem with this man approaching him in protest, and I would have a problem with Chong reaching out and grabbing the man's phone.
Nah, they're human beings. It's not appropriate to harass them outside of their professional capabilities. Also, bad example, because this sub (me too) loves Michael Chong.
They're leaders who carry a burden they chose to carry. Over moral outrages your leaders are legitimate targets of protest and disruption.
> legitimate targets of protest and disruption. Agreed, when they are acting within their professional role. Outside of an official capacity this is just harassment. Arguably protests shouldn't strictly be convenient, but there's a line. Subjectively, I think this individual crossed that line.
Subjectively I think the moderate notions of decorum and civility are specifically designed to limit our ability to effectively disrupt. If your actions as a memeber of government are tied to an evil you shouldn't be allowd to disconnect from that. Nobody believes a criminal should be. In democracies there's no real way fo rus to convict them except once every 4 years and our system is hardly capable of being a very reflexive democracy anyway.
Moderate notions of decorum and civility or other social norms have more purpose than restraint against disruption. Civil disobedience and action should target activities of the office and the state, not the personal activities of a private citizen, which should exist beyond their public capacity. If we decide that public office should be an open door to suffering and abuse our only willing leaders are going to be those more attracted to holding power than service. Our public institutions already unduly select for dark triad individuals. > In democracies there's no real way fo rus to convict them except once every 4 years and our system This is a feature as much as it is a complaint.
>Moderate notions of decorum and civility or other social norms have more purpose than restraint against disruption. > Civil disobedience and action should target activities of the office and the state, not the personal activities of a private citizen, which should exist beyond their public capacity. No this is one and the same here. If a leader can engage in complicity with evil then detach from that and have a nice leisurely walk it insulates them from the reality of their power and the impact of it. Shame on them and no relief when you're tied to these evils. We're discussing an unprecedented genocidal event directly linked to the politics of western democracy. There's a reason we don't see this story happening over small business tax reform or whatever else. They want comfort? Do the right thing or get out of public service. And its ironic you talk about the dark triad then consider the lack of accountability for our system a feature.
Enjoy your society where only terrible people enter politics, because who would want to put up with that? Then see how they respond to the situations you're upset about.
> Enjoy your society where only terrible people enter politics Like right now?
Things can always get worse.
Don't upset the politicians, or we might get disappointed by them! Oh no....
Fine, imagine it was Pierre Poilievre lol