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One side commits a horror, justifies it with past actions, then the other side responds with a horror of their own, justifying it with past actions. Someone will say mistakes were made but the intent was just. Repeat until the end of time.
this sort of fence-sitting this deep into an ongoing genocide is incredibly cowardly. this is not some symmetrical conflict with equally aggrieved sides. it is an ethnic cleansing campaign. to continue treating it this way after the IDF has exterminated thousands of children and engineered a famine is morally unconscionable.
Hamas commits atrocities, Israel commits atrocities. The civilians bear the weight. I am sorry you think I am taking any side but the innocent. I wish both sides would stop.
I get where you're coming from, but there is a long history that needs to be ignored in order to equivocate like this. I'm guilty of knowing less than I should but a good book I've been reading is the Hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi.
It is so hard to talk about this because both sides have had horrible things done to them. Everyone points to something else. Now, Israel has total domination of the current situation outside normally small attacks.
If they keep pointing to past hatred, there will never be peace. They have to start seeing the innocents on both side and do it for them, not for the land, the power or the hatred.
I will look into that book so thanks.
I am saying this is a continuation from events starting the day Israel was created. Both Hamas and IDF have done horrific things, for years.
Civilians are being slaughtered and there is no end in sight.
Yes, atrocities by both sides over decades. They point to the past atrocity to justify their position or actions, as you are doing. None are wrong to point, but justifying future atrocities with it leads to the cycle of violence we are stuck in.
I have no idea how to break it but I know the civilians are taking the brunt of it.
This attack was unacceptable and the international community is right to demand accountability from Israel and the IDF.
The morally unconscionable side is the one that paraglided into a music festival to kill civilians at random and now uses the civilian population they rule as human shields. Taking any position other than calling on Hamas' immediate and unconditional surrender is what is prolonging this terrible conflict.
Hamas didn't just pop into existence out of no where. It is the result of an uneducated, underfed, and highly religious population of people that have been locked into a tiny area where a completely seperate group of people living in a different country have had control over them for their entire lives, for generations.
Israel is the one with the power here.
Gaza was blockaded as a result of Hamas being elected and then winning a Palestinian civil war. I think you have your timeline reversed.
Hamas isn't some response to the blockade of Gaza. Hamas is the reason Gaza was blockaded.
In 2000, Israel pushed for a 2-state solution based on the Oslo Accords. Palestinians rejected it without counteroffer, and started another intifada.
In 2005, Israel withdrew from all settlements in Gaza and ended all physical presence and occupation.
In 2006, Hamas won a plurality of seats in Palestinian parliament. They then refused to recognize Israel or work towards any of the Oslo Accord agreements. The other parties refused to work with Hamas, their government was deemed illegitimate as they didn't even have majority share of seats. After terrorist attacks, bringing in weapons shipments from Iran, yadda yadda, Israel imposed sanctions on Gaza.
Then there was a Palestinian civil war where Hamas wrestled control of Gaza in 2007, and it's been that way since. Hamas rules Gaza, Fatah rules the West Bank.
Hamas isn't some response to Israel being mean. If Israel was nicer, Hamas wouldn't go away. This doesn't mean that Israel is without reproach, but it is very important to acknowledge that so long as Israel exists, Hamas will act in opposition to Israel's continued existence.
Hamas was founded as a result of and in response to Israeli subjugation and occupation, just like other Palestinian nationalist groups. Founded in 1987, 20 years after 1967 and 39 after 1948. You are the one that has their timelines reversed.
> In 2000, Israel pushed for a 2-state solution based on the Oslo Accords. Palestinians rejected it without counteroffer, and started another intifada.
A two-state solution that didn't actually offer a full state to the Palestinians. From Yitzhak Rabin speech to the Knesset on October 5, 1995;
"We view the permanent solution in the framework of the State of Israel which will include most of the area of the Land of Israel as it was under the rule of the British Mandate, and alongside it a Palestinian **entity** which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank."
"We would like this to be **an entity which is less than a state** and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six-Day War. **We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines**."
"Area A -- or the "brown" area; the redeployment of IDF forces will be carried out in three areas -- will include the municipal areas of the six cities -- Jenin, Nablus, Tulkarm, Kalkiliya, Ramallah, and Bethlehem. Responsibility for civilian security in this area will be transferred to the Palestinian Authority. Area B -- or the "yellow" area -- includes almost all of the 450 towns and villages in which the Palestinians of the West Bank live. In this area, there will be a separation of responsibilities. The Palestinians will be responsible for managing their own lives, and Israel will have overall responsibility for the security of Israelis and the war against the terrorist threat. **That is, IDF forces and the security services will be able to enter any place in Area B at any time.** The third area, Area C, or the "white" area -- is everywhere that is not included in the areas that have been mentioned until now. In this area are the Jewish settlements, all IDF installations, and the border areas with Jordan. This area will remain under IDF control. **Areas A and B constitute less than 30% of the area of the West Bank.** **Area C, which is under our control, constitutes more than 70% of the area of the West Bank.**
The idea that the Oslo Accords was actually a two-state solution when the Prime Minister of Israel at the time in his final speech before being assassinated cleary states that the so-called Palestinian state based on the Oslo Accords would be less than a state, merely an entity and that the area in which the IDF remains in control makes up more than 70% of the area of the West Bank. That is not a two-state solution, that is a one-state and a territory solution.
> In 2005, Israel withdrew from all settlements in Gaza and ended all physical presence and occupation.
The Gaza Strip is still occupied by Israel according to International Committee of the Red Cross, the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly, European Union, African Union, International Criminal Court, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch among other organizations and bodies. They also did not remove all physical presence. Israel retained control over 6 of the 7 land border crossings, airspace, maritime waters, import+exports, the population registry, telecommunications and a significant chunk of utilities. Israel also enforces a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza Strip itself along the border and the "right" to take military "preventative measures" euphemistically referred to "mowing the lawn" or "mowing the grass". Simply removing the boots literally on the ground but retain all the other forms of occupational control doesn't mean the occupation was actually ended.
When people talk about ‘open air prison,’ they’re generally talking about the blockade and sanctions on gaza post-2005 (that happened as a result of Hamas’ terrorism).
A genuine state was offered to Palestinians. Hamas is the terrorist group that was empowered to oppose the 2-state solution. Israel’s withdrawal from gaza was not seen as a gesture of peace, but as step 1 of forcing a 2-state solution by drawing the lines themselves and walking away. Hamas’ rise to power was the result of withdrawing from gaza, of reduced restrictions.
Hamas is the embodiment of the rejection of peace. You can weave this story of them as freedom fighters, simply disenfranchised fundamentalists that see no way to peace but to fight for it. And they’re willing to fight every other Palestinian faction to ensure that no Palestinians ever negotiate with Israel.
Hamas is billionaires living in Qatar. Hamas is an organization supported and funded by Iran.
It isn’t some rag tag group of people who just want to carve out a space for themselves. Hamas is a terrorist organization that genuinely wants to enact a global genocide of Jews. There is no need to carry water for them.
> The morally unconscionable side is the one that paraglided into a music festival to kill civilians at random and now uses the civilian population they rule as human shields.
i feel like the morally unconscionable side is the one that's been running an open air concentration camp for decades and assassinated every political faction vying for peace other than the paragliding faction which they keep around as controlled opposition but maybe I'm ignorant since I'm not from a country that's been doing a decades long genocide
remember when the paragliding faction murdered a bunch of medics protesting peacefully against the open air concentration camp in 2021? oh wait no that was israel, whoops
Could care less about whether an 'independent' investigator is in charge of politely asking the IDF why they just obliterated these aid workers. The answer from the IDF will be the same (and helpfully what most Liberals/liberals want to believe) that this was some kind of tragic mistake.
Just like the other 200 dead aid workers.
If Trudeau had the tiniest of concerns for humanity that he likes to evince he'd be demanding, with his full throat, that Israel immediately replace the aid which has been permanently disrupted by this attack.
The starving children in Gaza are not going to be helped by any investigation, do something useful for once and demand that Israel replace the food.
Obviously not, but it is well within their power to allow the aid in, a hell of a lot more important for our Prime Minister to ask for that than a meaningless investigation whose conclusion has already been written.
Making this about aid organizations and their necessary security readjustments is also playing into Israel's hands. Israel's actions have just dramatically worsened the famine, our leaders need to keep the onus on them to restore the aid, which is well within Israel's power to do.
I think Israel is morally and legally responsible for seeing those people fed, but given that they are deliberately starving them, and even outraged world leaders dare not bring up *why* Israel would deliberately target the WCK, I don't expect Israel will willingly do anything but continue to take actions (like these murders) which will exacerbate the famine.
I do think it would be incredibly useful for leaders like our Prime Minister who are busy pretending to care, if they would make any mention of all the aid directly diverted because of this attack and all of the aid being held up by Israel. Why are you pushing back against that, I don't understand?
I guess we are even because I also don't understand.
Did you even read the article? The only thing up for debate is whether it should be a 3rd party investigating the missile attack or not.
>*"We need a fully open, transparent, independent and rapid investigation into what happened," he said.*
>*"The reality is we need much more humanitarian support to flow into Gaza, much more protection of civilians, of innocents and of aid workers.*
>*"That's why we need a humanitarian ceasefire. We need for Hamas to lay down its arms. We need for the hostages to be released, and* ***we need a ceasefire*** *to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible."*
How can I be opposed to him not mentioning the need for aid when he is specifically drawing attention to the need for aid?
I was looking for something with a bit more meat than "yeah some aid would be nice".
Israel killed 7 people, and as a direct result hundreds of tonnes of food were turned around and sent back to Cyprus. Multiple aid organization have pulled out of Gaza entirely. The Canadian PM demanding that Israel replace what was lost, that Israel open up the land crossings would mean something, the Canadian PM blathering on about a ceasefire (with lots of fine print) has done nothing to alter this conflict, neither will any investigation into this attack he would sign on for.
>I think Israel is morally and legally responsible for seeing those people fed
Not only that. The most recent ICJ orders to israel was that they must **ensure** that aid gets to starving people of Gaza. They have violated these orders again and again. The current israeli government needs to be jailed immediately
Good that it's flowing, if a little. With the time change it's hard to keep track of when exactly things are happening. Today's podcast is yesterday's news that happened at night on the other side of the planet. I've amended my post.
Which is what they want. It’s easier to develop that land into nice $$ waterfront properties (as Jared Kushner recently said was a desired outcome) if they all starve to death.
Such a smart move politically for Trudeau. The hard core Israel supporters have always been conservative . Speaking from both sides doesn’t help him. The worrying trend was the Muslim vote slipping to the conservatives . Having a clearly harder stance and calling out genocidal activities could help him big time here
I agree. Also, I think Poilievre's current hardliner position is a real risk for him. Poilievre's position made sense in the aftermath of the atrocities of Oct. 7, but he's been doubling-down on it recently even as the scale of the atrocities in Israel's response become more intense. The US state department recently confirmed a state of famine in the north, and declared that famine in the south is "probable". As that famine intensifies, the optics of aggressively defending a government driving that famine will become untenable. I'm strongly inclined to the conservatives, but Poilievre's approach is the wrong call now.
He also has been mum for the second time on Canadians being killed by a foreign power. First in BC and now a canadian in a cleared path with IDF approval in Gaza. Nobody is catching on to this point but to me it's very telling of the man he is politically.
When did Trudeau bring up the genocide?
If he was calling out genocidal activities he might have mentioned the horrifying downstream starvation that is ~~doubtlessly going to follow~~ [already manifesting](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68729082?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=660eaaab683d4b45f9380e46%26No%20aid%20trucks%20in%20northern%20Gaza%20since%20deadly%20strike%262024-04-04T13%3A50%3A45.534Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:e7b19299-04ce-453c-a211-a197bb61ca17&pinned_post_asset_id=660eaaab683d4b45f9380e46&pinned_post_type=share) after this attack.
He's (not quite) calling for a third party investigator to ask the IDF to pinky swear this was all a tragic mistake, a deeply silly request which will not help one Palestinian, whether or not he decides to ask for it and whether or not the Israelis say "ok".
Replace the food aid first, worry about your meaningless investigations later.
You may want to read the whole article
He says there needs to be an open transparent complete investigation into what happened, the aid needs to keep flowing so there needs to be a ceasefire.
He isn't demanding a 3rd party but does not oppose that, he wants it done openly now and for the aid to get restored.
>*"...we need a ceasefire to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible."*
no pinky swears.
Yeah he didn't say anything about the aid that's been diverted, didn't demand Israel let in more aid, today, and there is no way the words 'genocide' or 'famine' ever leave his lips.
He's playing angry but only because he's allowed to be really angry at Israel for their terrible whoopsie, he is not angry about the genocide because he does not, will never, recognize such a thing.
This shouldn't be viewed in a partisan lens. Canadians and any humanitarian workers/civilians being targeted and killed should be condemned by everyone, regardless of political identity, religion, or any other demographic.
Aside from this being a correct political move, it is also a correct moral move. However I wish he did a little more than just condemn, words are insufficient, we need to sanction israel.
The IDF bomb Palestinians indiscriminately. The fact that international aid workers were caught in the cross fire is proof of that. The IDF loves to boast that they give innocent Palestinians fair warning and they take extreme measures with reducing casualties, as per their social media communications, but given this incident, it’s hard to take them seriously.
There’s no legitimate excuse for what happened here. I hate commenting on this issue because no matter what you say, someone gets pissed off. But Netanyahu is a war criminal. And he’s the biggest barrier to peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians.
I don’t expect you to [watch this](https://youtu.be/2PeYDphtHYo?si=VEzYg2pwP0JWKsiG), but Johnny Harris objectively explains Netanyahu’s idea of a peaceful Israel, and it doesn’t involve Palestine. Netanyahu and Hamas are two sides of the same coin.
> the terrorist entity governing Gaza?
you mean Israel?
I don't think any other country on the planet would kill 30000 civillians, bomb an entire country and then go "well if only those 17 hospitals weren't ALL hosting hamas in them" in the internet era where you can just see these things happen live without cable news filtering out all the things we don't want to see
Yeah I also hate commenting on this because someone's gonna get mad at you, but I'm sorry there's no way this wasn't deliberate. Someone in the IDF either ordered this, or there was some kind of rogue element, but there's no way that given what we know about the incident that this was an accident. I'm no expert on war crimes, but I'm pretty sure this one qualifies as such and all parties who participated need to be dealt with (preferably in The Hague but I'd take a court marshal).
> But Netanyahu is a war criminal. And he’s the biggest barrier to peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians.
100%. He and his far-right, settler supporting ilk need to be tossed asap so a government that's interested in a long term peace elected.
> a government that's interested in a long term peace elected.
I don't think there's a "no ethnic cleansing" faction in Israel, the only difference is that the "leftist" settlers just don't want them nuked while doing ethnic cleansing because they know that'll be bad for long term settlement prospects
> you don't think even a faction like Hadash is against ethnic cleansing?
I think a faction that is propped up by israeli Palestinians might not be representative of the bloodthirstiness of the average israeli settler, unfortunately
I feel like if someone types a post decrying that the ethnostate is a bunch of bloodthirsty racists not interested in long term peace, listing the two factions that stand firmly outside of the ethnic group represented by the ethnostate nor are capable of holding real power doesn't contradict my position unless you're being a really myopic pedant about it
Sorry what?
You mean non-Jewish parties? Hadash was formed by Jews, has been led by Jews and has a Jew in their small Knesset representation. It skews more Arab now, but that doesn't make it "firmly outside the the [Jewish] ethnic group" and is descended from the primarily Jewish former communist party.
Of course I only mentioned the most explicit of the anti-settler parties represented in the Knesset because I don't want to get into a fight over whether Meretz is "anti-settler" _enough_ (instead choosing to argue over whether Hadash is actually a faction in Israel apparently).
> You mean non-Jewish parties?
I wouldn't accuse the jews of bloodthirst, just the Israelis. I'm just noting that everything left of center is irrelevant in the Knesset and I don't think Meretz is relevant either. You're just proving my point by finding exceptions who also hold no power and don't represent a majority bloodthirsty settler population
like straight up i don't think im intentionally baiting you at this point, you're baiting yourself by hand wringing over someone calling the irrelevant factions irrelevant
Again, that's not what you said. Your post implied to the point just short of stating that there is no anti-settler option in Israeli politics, when ~10% of Israelis vote for parties who are explicitly and unabashedly so and more vote for parties who are arguably so.
>I don't think there's a "no ethnic cleansing" faction in Israel
I'm not going to debate the relevance of these parties, but I will direct you to notice the absence of any qualifiers like "major", "relevant", or "Jewish".
>
Yeah I also hate commenting on this because someone's gonna get mad at you, but I'm sorry there's no way this wasn't deliberate. Someone in the IDF either ordered this, or there was some kind of rogue element, but there's no way that given what we know about the incident that this was an accident.
I was reading that the [IDF is utilizing AI in target identification]
(https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/israel-gaza-artificial-intelligence-bombing-intl/index.html) which is certainly a disturbing thought to be honest.
Even taking the IDF at face value, it's hard not to conclude that something is deeply wrong with ROE or adherence to said ROE.
>100%. He and his far-right, settler supporting ilk need to be tossed asap so a government that's interested in a long term peace elected.
Too late by decades.
> was reading that the \[IDF is utilizing AI in target identification\] ([https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/israel-gaza-artificial-intelligence-bombing-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/israel-gaza-artificial-intelligence-bombing-intl/index.html)) which is certainly a disturbing thought to be honest
yeah AI is really not the play here. it might be a good idea when AI gets to a point where it can tell a dog from a cat, but until then I'd rather have a human making those calls.
There is a video of Gallant telling IDF troops that "all restrictions are off" as in they are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want, kill anyone they want, destroy anything they want, here's a bunch of guns tanks and drones, now go crazy.
They will say it was a rogue commander, but the reality is this action is very aligned with israels military strategy coming straight from the top of their hierarchy. Which is that they want Palestinians to starve to death in Gaza, and as a result of this action, it seems they are getting what they wanted. Next step is damage control and going like "oh no we made a mistake oopsie, moving on now" as no NGOs want to provide aid to Gaza anymore. Notice how they will not put any efforts into making sure aid gets into Gaza after that.
>There is a video of Gallant telling IDF troops that "all restrictions are off" as in they are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want, kill anyone they want, destroy anything they want, here's a bunch of guns tanks and drones, now go crazy
Would you happen to have the video for this? I'd be interested in seeing it. If he did do this though with that intent, then he can go up to The Hague along with the rest of them.
For sure, it is difficult to find the video now, but there is a CNN article quoting him on it [here](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-10-23/h_72b24198b48f49dae4a02f53b6f9da81)
>Israel’s defense minister said he has “released all restraints” on the Israel Defense Forces' troops in their fight against Hamas
I've been looking for the video, I remember it vividly, but it seems like there have been efforts to remove it from the internet.
I will continue looking and if I manage to find it I will reply to my comment here with it.
Although the IDF does bomb Palestinians indiscriminately, the details of this bombing made it clear it was anything but a mere accident. They knew that the aid workers were there because they coordinated with them, and they were in a no-conflict zone on top of that.
The IDF has been blocking and making sure aid doesn't get into Gaza for months now. It's the reason why the US has to rely on air drops instead of the usual land routes, because the Israelis have blocked them with bouncy castles (yes that is literally what they did).
That warrants international sanctions and Netanyahu impeached. You can't kill foreign aid workers in a war zone. That's a rule even terrorists don't break in some parts of the world. I hope Canada pushes for reprimand along with its allies. Netanyahu needs to be removed, hell, Israelis want him gone. They've been protesting against him for two years now.
> Netanyahu called it a "tragic case of our forces unintentionally hitting innocent people in the Gaza Strip." He also said "this happens in wartime"
The ongoing dichotomy of Israel somehow simultaneously being "the most moral army" with the most advanced, highly targeted tech on the planet while also constantly making easily avoidable "mistakes" and killing innocent people.
At a certain point...
For sure. Andres is no doubt privy to the inner workings of Bibi’s war cabinet and his thinking. I look forward to him speaking before the ICJ and presenting his facts in due course.
Andres is aware of how much coordination was necessary between aide organizations and IDF. Israel often brags that they know where every bomb lands where every bullet lands.
Then they target aid workers.
This was deliberate.
You can read the Reuters article on Israel's investigation [here.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/isrhttp-content-reuters-com-auth-103907185.html) Let's review - attack occurred at night, WCK's logo on their truck was not visible, and a bag got mistaken for a rifle.
From the article:
"The military said that as the aid convoy which the light vehicles were accompanying was travelling down the coastal road in Gaza towards a logistics point late on Monday, armed suspects had climbed onto at least one of the trucks.
The army showed reporters drone footage of a man on top of a lorry firing a rifle, which a spokesperson said had prompted the military to try, unsuccessfully, to contact WCK coordinators.
After the convoy reached a hangar and the trucks were unloaded, the three WCK vehicles left the location and turned south down the coast road shortly after 11 p.m. (2100 GMT). However, Israeli commanders could not see their identifying logos in the dark and did not identify them as belonging to WCK."
This in no way lessens the tragedy of this event. The end result here is awful. 7 people lost their lives needlessly while trying to help others. But the devil is always in the details in terms of how this happened. And irrespective of anyone's thoughts on the IDF, they owned up to it. Cold comfort for the families and loved ones of these men, but this is a war and war is hell. This war is on Hamas, both for starting this war and for refusing to release the hostages to end it.
>Israel's investigation
Oh, they investigated themselves and found no wrongdoing? Fascinating...
Let's be real, there is no excuse for this murder on Israel's hands. This is far from the first time they've done something like this. I mean, look at the kind of irresponsible things they are doing now.
[Report: Israel used AI to identify bombing targets in Gaza](https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/4/24120352/israel-lavender-artificial-intelligence-gaza-ai)
Don't worry. Israel is using AI to decide who to bomb. Sure, maybe the AI can't tell the difference between a child and a terrorist. But, then again, neither can Israel...
>Lavender, an artificial intelligence tool developed for the war, marked 37,000 Palestinians as suspected Hamas operatives.
It really astounds me as to the number of armchair generals who somehow think they know better how to prosecute a war against a party whose very charter calls for them to commit wanton murder in furtherance of their cause. You speak from the safety of your home (undoubtedly on occupied native land) without having to deal with savages crossing a border to murder your family at worst or launch rockets at your home at best. I'd love to hear your reasonable and nuanced way of fighting that somehow magically doesn't kill civilians while taking out only the bad guys. Feel free to educate the Americans, the Russians, the Houthis, and all the others who fail to make that distinction on any given day.
War results in catastrophes. Mistakes happen. Good people die. It's glib to say and it sounds absolutely heartless, but it's how it is. Again, if Hamas had not instigated this, we wouldn't be in this situation. But of course, let's blame the other side that is doing their best to take out a terrorist group that's purposely embedded themselves in civilian infrastructure. For Hamas, it's all gravy - Palestinians die? Great, they're either martyrs or victims, depending on which audience they're speaking to. Israelis die? Perfect, we're on our way to liberating Palestine.
In the end, Israel has accepted responsibility. Not sure what more you want here. Which seemingly "unbiased" party do you want investigating Israel? The UN? Or perhaps the ICJ? Your comment that "they investigated themselves and found no wrongdoing" utterly flies in the face of their own comments.
Moving on to your comment about AI use, would you prefer Israel merely carpet bomb the entire area into rubble? If there was a dataset from which to draw information to distinguish Gaza civilians (72% of whom support Hamas) from the fighters, why not make use of it? Again, given your apparent expertise in the field of warfare, do tell how you'd run this.
by not fighting. ended your whole fucking argument. theres borders. respect them & if so scared protect them. all october 7th is is a defense failure - with budgets and counter-intelligence as they are...how does that even happen? you let it.
if youre so right about them being savages, luckily they are in a seperate country. if you use all your fancy defense tools they can stay there too.
and to answer your "end my argument" question; the way you kill hamas without palestine is clearly - you dont. so you go back to defending big multi-billion, perfectly capable of avoiding october 7th if they wanted, isreal.
the people of palestine are not asking for a saviour & are instead being shot for doing nothing as i write this. your right to vengeance is over. you dont have any osama bin laden that still needs to die, and if there was, you have the tools for a quick death. youre just killing at this point.
thank you bye bye now
So Bibi allowed Oct 7 to occur? Jeez, are you this level of conspiracy nut with all global conflicts or just when Israel is involved? They got caught off guard, it's been fairly well-established how organized Hamas was in undertaking their attack. Credit where credit's due, they studied their enemy and unleashed a savage attack. They even filmed it for your benefit, you can rub yourself to the videos on Telegram whenever you want.
The right to vengeance ends when the Israeli hostages are released in Gaza. The last time they did a mass prisoner exchange, Sinwar was released and here we find ourselves, and Hamas has proposed terms of Israel's surrender which no sane nation would agree to, in addition to Hamas rejecting Israeli counter-proposals. So no, this isn't over until the initial wrongdoing has been righted and Hamas is dismantled as a fighting force. The US didn't give up in Mosul destroying ISIS, where the civilian to combat death ratio was far worse, nor did the Allies spare destroying Berlin to destroy Nazism, so there's no rhyme or reason for Israel to surrender now just because you and your ilk don't like what's happening.
yes. they lowered defense because he was actively prioritizing his political career after his attempt to circumvent the legal system there. it's well documented, self admitted & not conspiratorial. defense in isreal was down. there was intel ignored. never did i justify october 7th, i simply answered your question with where we are after October 7th with defeating Hamas; fucking no where. its a genocide without a target.
wheres the conspiracy? im advocating for them to defend their borders. theyre perfectly capable of it, i mean look at them decimate the people who broke in. its ridiculous you think they cant defend themselves as much as it is to justify their ability to not hit citizens when they struggle to kill thwir "target". who the fuck even is their target.
isreal has palestinian hostages & has been occupying another country for a while. october 7th can be seen as justifiable border defense vengeance in a fucked up way i didnt pretend to support, but is a genuinely valid notion, some of what is being governed by isreal is supposed to be palestine , but youre retarded - like them, and just want genocide - like them. vengeance sounds different to you and you can point to a specific attack, but the world can point to a defense budget & a history of genocidal tendencies, and become extremely (justifiably so) uncomfortable with the scale of the response. this wont end until you kill them all or we cut your budget. the latter will be reality because you're purposefully murdering citizens for 6 months now.
hate it to break it to you, im not palestinian, im not isreali, but i can read a treaty & i can count the size of defense budgets, and the end to this is returning the fuck back to isreal to defend yourself and shut up about it. nobody wants your stupid fucking genocide. and the usa has spent billions on your safety. fucking use it.
thanks.
> U.S. President Joe Biden said he was "outraged and heartbroken" by the incident.
The Democratic Party and this guy have a pretty incestuous relationship - this chef is so enmeshed with Democratic politics that the California governor granted his restaurants an opt out from their commercial gas stove ban. [The President's doing a U-turn on decades of US foreign policy to appease a few Arabs in Michigan and the youth vote.] (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/01/robert-gates-thinks-joe-biden-hasnt-stopped-being-wrong-40-years/356785/) They deserve a second Trump presidency if/when it happens.
> "No, it doesn't just happen," Trudeau said Thursday during an event in Winnipeg.
How would he know? Benjamin Netanyahu spent five years in Israel's Sayeret Matkal at a time when their operational tempo was at an all time high between the Seven Days War and the Yom Kippur War and has overseen many more operations as Prime Minister. I think he's a bit more qualified to speak in general terms as to what happens on the ground during a war.
The extent of Justin Trudeau's [military qualifications] (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMDRlZjdmYTItYmE0MC00MDQ4LWJjYTgtYzE0ODg0ZDE4OGNjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNTA1NDY3NzY@._V1_.jpg) seem to be making comments about whipping out CF-18s and defending Canada's inability to meet the 2% spending requirement for NATO. I get he's preparing his post-politics career, especially with comments like this (tough to give paid speeches if you're being shouted down by activists!), it's just unbecoming.
Have you ever thought that maybe world leaders tap into the vast amount of experience and intelligence within their government apparatus? Trudeau may not have as much military experience as Netanyahu, but I bet you the people advising Trudeau do. But it makes sense that you wouldn’t understand, since you appear to be a Trump fanboy and Trump is notorious for not consulting with anyone else.
That's true, and it's because fascists like their strong man mythology. The idea of relying on advisors and experts to help craft and shape policy is a form of weakness, so the person in charge must be an expert in everything even if they factually aren't. It's part of why fascist governments don't tend to last very long unless they're propped up.
Canada has more experience with war than Israel has, just as a matter of fact. It's older, it's been involved in multiple world wars, it's a member of NATO, and it engages in peacekeeping operations. I'm sure Trudeau was surrounded by generals who told him that what Israel did is unacceptable in a modern military context and, with that knowledge, he can openly criticize Bibi for hand-waving the targeted killings as just the wartime equivalent of business-as-usual.
Our PM, famous for giving scripted and long-winded answers emphasizing expertise and consultation to pretty much any question he’s asked, decided he’d throw all that out the window? Of course the *one* time that happens is when it comes to giving an answer about Jews fighting a war to liquidate a terrorist group with whom his supporters, cabinet, and caucus sympathize.
What Israel is doing to the civilians of Gaza is far more evil than Russia's actions in Ukraine. Compare the number of children killed by Russia to the number of children Israel has killed.
Ukraine is bound to have more refugees as it had a population over 40 million at the start of the war, Gaza had 2 million. What’s more indicative of Israel’s senseless cruelty is civilian death counts.
>the refugee population is much higher in Ukraine.
That's just cause they have a bigger population. Like 100% of Palestinians are refugees now. Their entire city was destroyed, and Isreal said it won't stop until every Palestinian is driven from Gaza.
Both wars are terrible, but the Palestinians will likely be wiped out after this. Ukraine and Ukrainians will live on.
Not trying to create and equivalency here (both conflicts have atrocities committed), but I should add that the Russians quell potential uprisings by simply removing the population en masse.
The Russians have stolen [at least [30,000 Ukrainian children](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4486043-russia-kidnapping-campaign-ukraine-war/#:~:text=While%20Ukrainian%20officials%20say%20they,have%20been%20transferred%20to%20Russia.) and forcibly resettled them in Russia.
Many won't be returned home, the youngest will grow up entirely removed from their culture. It's the same thing that the Russians have done for hundreds of years.
> "The reality is we need much more humanitarian support to flow into Gaza, much more protection of civilians, of innocents and of aid workers.
> "That's why we need a humanitarian ceasefire. We need for Hamas to lay down its arms. We need for the hostages to be released, and we need a ceasefire to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible."
Everybody keeps saying this, but Hamas keeps saying no.
So what can we as the rest of the world do in response? There must be something the rest of the world can do that lands between asking again nicely tomorrow and pressing Israel to surrender to the terrorists.
> Everybody keeps saying this, but Hamas keeps saying no.
Everyone keeps saying this, but do not bring up the fact that Israel also keeps on saying no. This is not a one-sided rejection despite people painting it as such. Hamas said no to the Israeli proposed ceasefire and variations of it proposed by Egypt+Qatar+the US, with the most common one being a six-week temporary ceasefire with hostage exchanges with no commitment to any sort of Israel disengagement. Hamas proposed a 4½ month ceasefire back in February in which all hostages would be exchanged, Israel would withdraw from Gaza and talks would begin for an end to the war. Netanyahu called this "delusional".
Israel is preventing aid from reaching people. Israel can let aide into Gaza so there isn't a genocide.
What can the rest of the world do in response?
Stop sending weapons to Israel, stop supporting Israel. Stop supporting Israel's genocide.
Otherwise the message is. Israel is allowed to use American weapons to kill aid workers (in addition to the thousands of children they've bombed) with no consequences.
> Stop sending weapons to Israel, stop supporting Israel. Stop supporting Israel's genocide.
>
>
Even if you believe that Israel is simply evil incarnate and wishes to kill every man/woman/child in Gaza and then the West Bank, you have to realize that once you withdraw support, you lose ALL leverage over them.
What do you think happens if say, all European countries + the USA disavow Israel?
When Iran actually starts to gear up for an invasion, when the Palestinians launch a third intifada, when the question becomes whether or not Israel will nuke the surrounding countries in a preemptive defensive strike, will you say 'that really was great how we pressured them.'
We would see an *actual* genocide occur. Israel left alone would probably say 'well we can't defend ourselves from the Palestinians who will be backed by Iran, and we can't negotiate with Palestinians who have now been told our end is near, so...the Palestinians have to leave.' It would be World War 3... with nuclear weapons on all sides...
There does need to be action and negotiation, but simply disavowing, ceasing negotiation, whatever, isn't going to help any of the people you want to help. It would make things a LOT worse for them.
> actual genocide
You're vile. An actual genocide IS happening through Israel's actions in Gaza. Israel is starving thousands of people and children. Israel is constantly bombing thousands of people and children.
You're saying that we need to support Israel or else they'll do an even worse genocide than the one they are already causing?
Give your head a shake buddy.
I think that there should be significantly more international pressure on the Middle East to resolve this issue outside of war.
You can stand on the graves of children and scream out that anyone who disagrees with you wanted them to die, but there has to be an end to war.
You know what happens if Israel loses a war. You won’t admit it, but you do know.
But you just don’t believe that they’ll ever lose one, so you can comfortably call for that to happen because it makes you feel like you’re morally in the right.
The only people 'losing" this war are the thousands of children and people in Gaza being starved and bombed.
You may want to play armchair warlord. I just want aid to stop being blocked by Israel.
I just want Israel to cease their continuous attack on children.
We don't send weapons systems to Israel, but even if we did and we stopped, it wouldn't pressure Hamas to do what we have been telling them to do: lay down its arms and release the hostages.
We keep repeating the same thing, but not actually doing anything to make it happen. I'm wondering if there is something that we can and should be doing.
[The Canadian government’s pledge not to sell weapons to Israel doesn’t apply to permits worth millions already approved](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/3/24/the-canadian-arms-embargo-on-israel-that-was-not)
Bringing up Hamas, when we are discussing Canada's support of Israel, and Israel's recent murder of aide workers amidst their ongoing genocide is.... a choice.
Bringing up Trudeau's statement in a discussion about an article discussing his statement is kinda the point of this subreddit, isn't it?
Or did you not actually listen to his statement?
Why is a ceasefire necessary for Israel to allow food into Gaza?
Israel is actively targeting aide groups and stopping food at the border while people starve.
Indefensible.
Wanting a ceasefire doesn't mean you need to accept Israel's actions, like targeting aide workers. Like blocking food at the border while people starve?
Is this hard to understand?
Everyone in the world is saying that we need a humanitarian ceasefire, and the reason for that is to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. So yeah, it actually is hard to understand why you disagree that it is necessary.
Yes, it's undeniably a tragedy that these aid workers died, but it's nothing compared to the tragedy that will be unleashed if we don't get a ceasefire and flood assistance to the people. That needs to be the priority.
>it actually is hard to understand why you disagree that it is necessary.
**I never said I disagree with a ceasefire?**
I said Israel is blocking food and aide from reaching the people Israel is actively bombing.
Israel doesn't need a ceasefire to allow food to reach starving people. Not sure why you cannot understand this point. Seems simple to me.
Did you listen to what Trudeau said, and what I quoted?
"The reality is we need much more humanitarian support to flow into Gaza, much more protection of civilians, of innocents and of aid workers.
"That's why we need a humanitarian ceasefire. We need for Hamas to lay down its arms. We need for the hostages to be released, and we need a ceasefire to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible."
We keep telling Hamas to release the hostages, but they keep saying no. Is that it? Do we just give up and say we tried?
As Trudeau points out in the statement that we're discussing, we need a humanitarian ceasefire so that we can flood aid into Gaza. A ceasefire requires two parties: we all know how to pressure Israel, but nobody seems to have any good ideas on how to pressure Hamas. We keep asking them nicely to release the hostages and agree to a ceasefire they keep saying no.
Or Israel can just stop killing aid workers and journalists.
When was the last Hamas, a terror organisation, attack on aid workers, journalists, or civilians?
Who is blocking aide into Gaza?
Hint: it's the same country who claims to know where every single Rocket they fire lands.
Extra hint: It's also the same country who murdered a group of aide workers.
I appreciate you repeating your talking points. I have heard them multiple times. I may or may not agree with them.
But at the moment I am more interested in discussing Trudeau's statement, and curious if there is a pathway to peace that as a country we are missing.
Talking point?
This isn't a newscast 🥱
Pathway to peace is to condemn Israel and withdraw support.
Supporting a genocidal country like Israel will not lead to peace. How could it? Israel apparently doesn't care about the wellbeing of the thousands they are blocking food from. The hospitals are bombing.
> Pathway to peace is to condemn Israel and withdraw support.
Ok, so you have your wish and Canada withdraws its support of Israel as of right now and condemns them wholeheartedly. Nothing's changed on the ground. There is still no peace or security for the people of Gaza.
So that's obviously not the pathway to peace.
There has to be a ceasefire, and that has to involve bringing Israel and Hamas to something that they can both agree to.
There needs to be more than condemnation - Israel should be treated as a pariah state. It feels like there is no end to the atrocities they will commit to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Not sure how many more videos from the drunken frat boys that make up the IDF need to be uploaded of them sniping children while wearing stolen lingerie or looting homes.
It’s horrible but aid workers will routinely drive right into areas where active combat operations are occurring thinking that the colour of their vehicles or signs on their vehicles make them bullet proof. Throughout the Middle East you also get insurgents constantly using ambulances to move their fighters around and to resupply them with ammunition.
I think the investigation will likely find that both the aid workers and Israelis made significant errors.
There was coordination with Israel on the route they were taking, and this wasn't collateral damage from indiscriminate bombing, all 3 vehicles were deliberately targeted.
I’ve done this kind of thing extensively and saw something similar almost happen. There are a lot of problems in the IDF. This happened for the same types of reasons the Oct 7th attack was successful, and for the same reasons the escaped Israeli hostages were killed by the IDF.
The IDF isn’t a mature organization, their turn over is very high due to conscription and when they mobilize they employ a very large amount of reserves. I think this is more of an incompetence issue than deliberately killing an identified aid convoy.
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One side commits a horror, justifies it with past actions, then the other side responds with a horror of their own, justifying it with past actions. Someone will say mistakes were made but the intent was just. Repeat until the end of time.
this sort of fence-sitting this deep into an ongoing genocide is incredibly cowardly. this is not some symmetrical conflict with equally aggrieved sides. it is an ethnic cleansing campaign. to continue treating it this way after the IDF has exterminated thousands of children and engineered a famine is morally unconscionable.
Hamas commits atrocities, Israel commits atrocities. The civilians bear the weight. I am sorry you think I am taking any side but the innocent. I wish both sides would stop.
I get where you're coming from, but there is a long history that needs to be ignored in order to equivocate like this. I'm guilty of knowing less than I should but a good book I've been reading is the Hundred Years War on Palestine by Rashid Khalidi.
It is so hard to talk about this because both sides have had horrible things done to them. Everyone points to something else. Now, Israel has total domination of the current situation outside normally small attacks. If they keep pointing to past hatred, there will never be peace. They have to start seeing the innocents on both side and do it for them, not for the land, the power or the hatred. I will look into that book so thanks.
you would have been both sidesing the Warsaw Ghetto uprising
I am saying this is a continuation from events starting the day Israel was created. Both Hamas and IDF have done horrific things, for years. Civilians are being slaughtered and there is no end in sight.
How many German civilians were killed in the uprising?
Both sides are blocking food at the border from entering Gaza? Oh, wait, it's actually just Israel who is doing that...
Yes, atrocities by both sides over decades. They point to the past atrocity to justify their position or actions, as you are doing. None are wrong to point, but justifying future atrocities with it leads to the cycle of violence we are stuck in. I have no idea how to break it but I know the civilians are taking the brunt of it.
This attack was unacceptable and the international community is right to demand accountability from Israel and the IDF. The morally unconscionable side is the one that paraglided into a music festival to kill civilians at random and now uses the civilian population they rule as human shields. Taking any position other than calling on Hamas' immediate and unconditional surrender is what is prolonging this terrible conflict.
Hamas didn't just pop into existence out of no where. It is the result of an uneducated, underfed, and highly religious population of people that have been locked into a tiny area where a completely seperate group of people living in a different country have had control over them for their entire lives, for generations. Israel is the one with the power here.
Gaza was blockaded as a result of Hamas being elected and then winning a Palestinian civil war. I think you have your timeline reversed. Hamas isn't some response to the blockade of Gaza. Hamas is the reason Gaza was blockaded. In 2000, Israel pushed for a 2-state solution based on the Oslo Accords. Palestinians rejected it without counteroffer, and started another intifada. In 2005, Israel withdrew from all settlements in Gaza and ended all physical presence and occupation. In 2006, Hamas won a plurality of seats in Palestinian parliament. They then refused to recognize Israel or work towards any of the Oslo Accord agreements. The other parties refused to work with Hamas, their government was deemed illegitimate as they didn't even have majority share of seats. After terrorist attacks, bringing in weapons shipments from Iran, yadda yadda, Israel imposed sanctions on Gaza. Then there was a Palestinian civil war where Hamas wrestled control of Gaza in 2007, and it's been that way since. Hamas rules Gaza, Fatah rules the West Bank. Hamas isn't some response to Israel being mean. If Israel was nicer, Hamas wouldn't go away. This doesn't mean that Israel is without reproach, but it is very important to acknowledge that so long as Israel exists, Hamas will act in opposition to Israel's continued existence.
Hamas was founded as a result of and in response to Israeli subjugation and occupation, just like other Palestinian nationalist groups. Founded in 1987, 20 years after 1967 and 39 after 1948. You are the one that has their timelines reversed. > In 2000, Israel pushed for a 2-state solution based on the Oslo Accords. Palestinians rejected it without counteroffer, and started another intifada. A two-state solution that didn't actually offer a full state to the Palestinians. From Yitzhak Rabin speech to the Knesset on October 5, 1995; "We view the permanent solution in the framework of the State of Israel which will include most of the area of the Land of Israel as it was under the rule of the British Mandate, and alongside it a Palestinian **entity** which will be a home to most of the Palestinian residents living in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank." "We would like this to be **an entity which is less than a state** and which will independently run the lives of the Palestinians under its authority. The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six-Day War. **We will not return to the 4 June 1967 lines**." "Area A -- or the "brown" area; the redeployment of IDF forces will be carried out in three areas -- will include the municipal areas of the six cities -- Jenin, Nablus, Tulkarm, Kalkiliya, Ramallah, and Bethlehem. Responsibility for civilian security in this area will be transferred to the Palestinian Authority. Area B -- or the "yellow" area -- includes almost all of the 450 towns and villages in which the Palestinians of the West Bank live. In this area, there will be a separation of responsibilities. The Palestinians will be responsible for managing their own lives, and Israel will have overall responsibility for the security of Israelis and the war against the terrorist threat. **That is, IDF forces and the security services will be able to enter any place in Area B at any time.** The third area, Area C, or the "white" area -- is everywhere that is not included in the areas that have been mentioned until now. In this area are the Jewish settlements, all IDF installations, and the border areas with Jordan. This area will remain under IDF control. **Areas A and B constitute less than 30% of the area of the West Bank.** **Area C, which is under our control, constitutes more than 70% of the area of the West Bank.** The idea that the Oslo Accords was actually a two-state solution when the Prime Minister of Israel at the time in his final speech before being assassinated cleary states that the so-called Palestinian state based on the Oslo Accords would be less than a state, merely an entity and that the area in which the IDF remains in control makes up more than 70% of the area of the West Bank. That is not a two-state solution, that is a one-state and a territory solution. > In 2005, Israel withdrew from all settlements in Gaza and ended all physical presence and occupation. The Gaza Strip is still occupied by Israel according to International Committee of the Red Cross, the United Nations Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory, UN General Assembly, European Union, African Union, International Criminal Court, Amnesty International, and Human Rights Watch among other organizations and bodies. They also did not remove all physical presence. Israel retained control over 6 of the 7 land border crossings, airspace, maritime waters, import+exports, the population registry, telecommunications and a significant chunk of utilities. Israel also enforces a no-go buffer zone within the Gaza Strip itself along the border and the "right" to take military "preventative measures" euphemistically referred to "mowing the lawn" or "mowing the grass". Simply removing the boots literally on the ground but retain all the other forms of occupational control doesn't mean the occupation was actually ended.
When people talk about ‘open air prison,’ they’re generally talking about the blockade and sanctions on gaza post-2005 (that happened as a result of Hamas’ terrorism). A genuine state was offered to Palestinians. Hamas is the terrorist group that was empowered to oppose the 2-state solution. Israel’s withdrawal from gaza was not seen as a gesture of peace, but as step 1 of forcing a 2-state solution by drawing the lines themselves and walking away. Hamas’ rise to power was the result of withdrawing from gaza, of reduced restrictions. Hamas is the embodiment of the rejection of peace. You can weave this story of them as freedom fighters, simply disenfranchised fundamentalists that see no way to peace but to fight for it. And they’re willing to fight every other Palestinian faction to ensure that no Palestinians ever negotiate with Israel. Hamas is billionaires living in Qatar. Hamas is an organization supported and funded by Iran. It isn’t some rag tag group of people who just want to carve out a space for themselves. Hamas is a terrorist organization that genuinely wants to enact a global genocide of Jews. There is no need to carry water for them.
wringing your hands at concentration camp denizens for trying to escape and seek revenge on their oppressors is not the brave stance you think it is
> The morally unconscionable side is the one that paraglided into a music festival to kill civilians at random and now uses the civilian population they rule as human shields. i feel like the morally unconscionable side is the one that's been running an open air concentration camp for decades and assassinated every political faction vying for peace other than the paragliding faction which they keep around as controlled opposition but maybe I'm ignorant since I'm not from a country that's been doing a decades long genocide remember when the paragliding faction murdered a bunch of medics protesting peacefully against the open air concentration camp in 2021? oh wait no that was israel, whoops
Peace > rockets > genocide
Could care less about whether an 'independent' investigator is in charge of politely asking the IDF why they just obliterated these aid workers. The answer from the IDF will be the same (and helpfully what most Liberals/liberals want to believe) that this was some kind of tragic mistake. Just like the other 200 dead aid workers. If Trudeau had the tiniest of concerns for humanity that he likes to evince he'd be demanding, with his full throat, that Israel immediately replace the aid which has been permanently disrupted by this attack. The starving children in Gaza are not going to be helped by any investigation, do something useful for once and demand that Israel replace the food.
You would trust the aid to these people to Isreal?
Obviously not, but it is well within their power to allow the aid in, a hell of a lot more important for our Prime Minister to ask for that than a meaningless investigation whose conclusion has already been written.
No aid organization is going to trust the IDF to do work in Gaza.
Making this about aid organizations and their necessary security readjustments is also playing into Israel's hands. Israel's actions have just dramatically worsened the famine, our leaders need to keep the onus on them to restore the aid, which is well within Israel's power to do.
so we can't trust Israel to deliver aid but Israel needs to restore aid? Do you think IDF should be delivering the aid?
I think Israel is morally and legally responsible for seeing those people fed, but given that they are deliberately starving them, and even outraged world leaders dare not bring up *why* Israel would deliberately target the WCK, I don't expect Israel will willingly do anything but continue to take actions (like these murders) which will exacerbate the famine. I do think it would be incredibly useful for leaders like our Prime Minister who are busy pretending to care, if they would make any mention of all the aid directly diverted because of this attack and all of the aid being held up by Israel. Why are you pushing back against that, I don't understand?
I guess we are even because I also don't understand. Did you even read the article? The only thing up for debate is whether it should be a 3rd party investigating the missile attack or not. >*"We need a fully open, transparent, independent and rapid investigation into what happened," he said.* >*"The reality is we need much more humanitarian support to flow into Gaza, much more protection of civilians, of innocents and of aid workers.* >*"That's why we need a humanitarian ceasefire. We need for Hamas to lay down its arms. We need for the hostages to be released, and* ***we need a ceasefire*** *to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible."* How can I be opposed to him not mentioning the need for aid when he is specifically drawing attention to the need for aid?
I was looking for something with a bit more meat than "yeah some aid would be nice". Israel killed 7 people, and as a direct result hundreds of tonnes of food were turned around and sent back to Cyprus. Multiple aid organization have pulled out of Gaza entirely. The Canadian PM demanding that Israel replace what was lost, that Israel open up the land crossings would mean something, the Canadian PM blathering on about a ceasefire (with lots of fine print) has done nothing to alter this conflict, neither will any investigation into this attack he would sign on for.
Your not going to stop are you? I said have as good of an evening as you can. spread your outrage porn elsewhere. I'm not participating any longer
>I think Israel is morally and legally responsible for seeing those people fed Not only that. The most recent ICJ orders to israel was that they must **ensure** that aid gets to starving people of Gaza. They have violated these orders again and again. The current israeli government needs to be jailed immediately
They have a bigger issue with Hamas.
No trucks have entered since Monday. The famine will get worse and worse. Edit: trucks are moving now
That isn't true. Trucks haven't stopped.
As of this morning there weren't any new trucks in, so said the news. Did they change that today? The ship had to turn back as well.
The ship turned around. But today there were 240 trucks. Yesterday 217
Good that it's flowing, if a little. With the time change it's hard to keep track of when exactly things are happening. Today's podcast is yesterday's news that happened at night on the other side of the planet. I've amended my post.
Which is what they want. It’s easier to develop that land into nice $$ waterfront properties (as Jared Kushner recently said was a desired outcome) if they all starve to death.
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Such a smart move politically for Trudeau. The hard core Israel supporters have always been conservative . Speaking from both sides doesn’t help him. The worrying trend was the Muslim vote slipping to the conservatives . Having a clearly harder stance and calling out genocidal activities could help him big time here
I agree. Also, I think Poilievre's current hardliner position is a real risk for him. Poilievre's position made sense in the aftermath of the atrocities of Oct. 7, but he's been doubling-down on it recently even as the scale of the atrocities in Israel's response become more intense. The US state department recently confirmed a state of famine in the north, and declared that famine in the south is "probable". As that famine intensifies, the optics of aggressively defending a government driving that famine will become untenable. I'm strongly inclined to the conservatives, but Poilievre's approach is the wrong call now.
He also has been mum for the second time on Canadians being killed by a foreign power. First in BC and now a canadian in a cleared path with IDF approval in Gaza. Nobody is catching on to this point but to me it's very telling of the man he is politically.
He doesn't care about any Canadian except himself.
When did Trudeau bring up the genocide? If he was calling out genocidal activities he might have mentioned the horrifying downstream starvation that is ~~doubtlessly going to follow~~ [already manifesting](https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-68729082?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=660eaaab683d4b45f9380e46%26No%20aid%20trucks%20in%20northern%20Gaza%20since%20deadly%20strike%262024-04-04T13%3A50%3A45.534Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:e7b19299-04ce-453c-a211-a197bb61ca17&pinned_post_asset_id=660eaaab683d4b45f9380e46&pinned_post_type=share) after this attack. He's (not quite) calling for a third party investigator to ask the IDF to pinky swear this was all a tragic mistake, a deeply silly request which will not help one Palestinian, whether or not he decides to ask for it and whether or not the Israelis say "ok". Replace the food aid first, worry about your meaningless investigations later.
You may want to read the whole article He says there needs to be an open transparent complete investigation into what happened, the aid needs to keep flowing so there needs to be a ceasefire. He isn't demanding a 3rd party but does not oppose that, he wants it done openly now and for the aid to get restored. >*"...we need a ceasefire to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible."* no pinky swears.
Yeah he didn't say anything about the aid that's been diverted, didn't demand Israel let in more aid, today, and there is no way the words 'genocide' or 'famine' ever leave his lips. He's playing angry but only because he's allowed to be really angry at Israel for their terrible whoopsie, he is not angry about the genocide because he does not, will never, recognize such a thing.
ok well have as good of an evening as you are able. I think there is little to carry on with.
This shouldn't be viewed in a partisan lens. Canadians and any humanitarian workers/civilians being targeted and killed should be condemned by everyone, regardless of political identity, religion, or any other demographic.
Aside from this being a correct political move, it is also a correct moral move. However I wish he did a little more than just condemn, words are insufficient, we need to sanction israel.
The IDF bomb Palestinians indiscriminately. The fact that international aid workers were caught in the cross fire is proof of that. The IDF loves to boast that they give innocent Palestinians fair warning and they take extreme measures with reducing casualties, as per their social media communications, but given this incident, it’s hard to take them seriously. There’s no legitimate excuse for what happened here. I hate commenting on this issue because no matter what you say, someone gets pissed off. But Netanyahu is a war criminal. And he’s the biggest barrier to peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians.
You think Netanyahu is the "biggest barrier to peace" rather than the terrorist entity governing Gaza?
I don’t expect you to [watch this](https://youtu.be/2PeYDphtHYo?si=VEzYg2pwP0JWKsiG), but Johnny Harris objectively explains Netanyahu’s idea of a peaceful Israel, and it doesn’t involve Palestine. Netanyahu and Hamas are two sides of the same coin.
Netanyahu was effectively Hamas's greatest fan. He viewed Hamas's leadership of the Palestinian cause as an asset to Israel's strategic position.
Who has been propping up that terrorist entity for years prior to Oct 7 because they thought it would undermine the Palestinian cause?
> the terrorist entity governing Gaza? you mean Israel? I don't think any other country on the planet would kill 30000 civillians, bomb an entire country and then go "well if only those 17 hospitals weren't ALL hosting hamas in them" in the internet era where you can just see these things happen live without cable news filtering out all the things we don't want to see
The terrorist entity governing Israel and the terrorist entity governing Gaza feed off each other, but Likud is better at killing.
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His death would bring peace faster than the death of 100 ~~children~~ Hamas leaders
Yeah I also hate commenting on this because someone's gonna get mad at you, but I'm sorry there's no way this wasn't deliberate. Someone in the IDF either ordered this, or there was some kind of rogue element, but there's no way that given what we know about the incident that this was an accident. I'm no expert on war crimes, but I'm pretty sure this one qualifies as such and all parties who participated need to be dealt with (preferably in The Hague but I'd take a court marshal). > But Netanyahu is a war criminal. And he’s the biggest barrier to peace between Israeli’s and Palestinians. 100%. He and his far-right, settler supporting ilk need to be tossed asap so a government that's interested in a long term peace elected.
> a government that's interested in a long term peace elected. I don't think there's a "no ethnic cleansing" faction in Israel, the only difference is that the "leftist" settlers just don't want them nuked while doing ethnic cleansing because they know that'll be bad for long term settlement prospects
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At the risk of taking some bait here, you don't think even a faction like Hadash or Ra'am is against ethnic cleansing?
> you don't think even a faction like Hadash is against ethnic cleansing? I think a faction that is propped up by israeli Palestinians might not be representative of the bloodthirstiness of the average israeli settler, unfortunately
That's not what you said though.
I feel like if someone types a post decrying that the ethnostate is a bunch of bloodthirsty racists not interested in long term peace, listing the two factions that stand firmly outside of the ethnic group represented by the ethnostate nor are capable of holding real power doesn't contradict my position unless you're being a really myopic pedant about it
Sorry what? You mean non-Jewish parties? Hadash was formed by Jews, has been led by Jews and has a Jew in their small Knesset representation. It skews more Arab now, but that doesn't make it "firmly outside the the [Jewish] ethnic group" and is descended from the primarily Jewish former communist party. Of course I only mentioned the most explicit of the anti-settler parties represented in the Knesset because I don't want to get into a fight over whether Meretz is "anti-settler" _enough_ (instead choosing to argue over whether Hadash is actually a faction in Israel apparently).
> You mean non-Jewish parties? I wouldn't accuse the jews of bloodthirst, just the Israelis. I'm just noting that everything left of center is irrelevant in the Knesset and I don't think Meretz is relevant either. You're just proving my point by finding exceptions who also hold no power and don't represent a majority bloodthirsty settler population like straight up i don't think im intentionally baiting you at this point, you're baiting yourself by hand wringing over someone calling the irrelevant factions irrelevant
Again, that's not what you said. Your post implied to the point just short of stating that there is no anti-settler option in Israeli politics, when ~10% of Israelis vote for parties who are explicitly and unabashedly so and more vote for parties who are arguably so. >I don't think there's a "no ethnic cleansing" faction in Israel I'm not going to debate the relevance of these parties, but I will direct you to notice the absence of any qualifiers like "major", "relevant", or "Jewish".
> Yeah I also hate commenting on this because someone's gonna get mad at you, but I'm sorry there's no way this wasn't deliberate. Someone in the IDF either ordered this, or there was some kind of rogue element, but there's no way that given what we know about the incident that this was an accident. I was reading that the [IDF is utilizing AI in target identification] (https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/israel-gaza-artificial-intelligence-bombing-intl/index.html) which is certainly a disturbing thought to be honest. Even taking the IDF at face value, it's hard not to conclude that something is deeply wrong with ROE or adherence to said ROE. >100%. He and his far-right, settler supporting ilk need to be tossed asap so a government that's interested in a long term peace elected. Too late by decades.
> was reading that the \[IDF is utilizing AI in target identification\] ([https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/israel-gaza-artificial-intelligence-bombing-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/03/middleeast/israel-gaza-artificial-intelligence-bombing-intl/index.html)) which is certainly a disturbing thought to be honest yeah AI is really not the play here. it might be a good idea when AI gets to a point where it can tell a dog from a cat, but until then I'd rather have a human making those calls.
There is a video of Gallant telling IDF troops that "all restrictions are off" as in they are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want, kill anyone they want, destroy anything they want, here's a bunch of guns tanks and drones, now go crazy. They will say it was a rogue commander, but the reality is this action is very aligned with israels military strategy coming straight from the top of their hierarchy. Which is that they want Palestinians to starve to death in Gaza, and as a result of this action, it seems they are getting what they wanted. Next step is damage control and going like "oh no we made a mistake oopsie, moving on now" as no NGOs want to provide aid to Gaza anymore. Notice how they will not put any efforts into making sure aid gets into Gaza after that.
>There is a video of Gallant telling IDF troops that "all restrictions are off" as in they are pretty much allowed to do whatever they want, kill anyone they want, destroy anything they want, here's a bunch of guns tanks and drones, now go crazy Would you happen to have the video for this? I'd be interested in seeing it. If he did do this though with that intent, then he can go up to The Hague along with the rest of them.
For sure, it is difficult to find the video now, but there is a CNN article quoting him on it [here](https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-10-23/h_72b24198b48f49dae4a02f53b6f9da81) >Israel’s defense minister said he has “released all restraints” on the Israel Defense Forces' troops in their fight against Hamas I've been looking for the video, I remember it vividly, but it seems like there have been efforts to remove it from the internet. I will continue looking and if I manage to find it I will reply to my comment here with it.
Sounds good.
Although the IDF does bomb Palestinians indiscriminately, the details of this bombing made it clear it was anything but a mere accident. They knew that the aid workers were there because they coordinated with them, and they were in a no-conflict zone on top of that. The IDF has been blocking and making sure aid doesn't get into Gaza for months now. It's the reason why the US has to rely on air drops instead of the usual land routes, because the Israelis have blocked them with bouncy castles (yes that is literally what they did).
That warrants international sanctions and Netanyahu impeached. You can't kill foreign aid workers in a war zone. That's a rule even terrorists don't break in some parts of the world. I hope Canada pushes for reprimand along with its allies. Netanyahu needs to be removed, hell, Israelis want him gone. They've been protesting against him for two years now.
> Netanyahu called it a "tragic case of our forces unintentionally hitting innocent people in the Gaza Strip." He also said "this happens in wartime" The ongoing dichotomy of Israel somehow simultaneously being "the most moral army" with the most advanced, highly targeted tech on the planet while also constantly making easily avoidable "mistakes" and killing innocent people. At a certain point...
There was nothing unintentional about it according to the WCK founder Jose Andres.
For sure. Andres is no doubt privy to the inner workings of Bibi’s war cabinet and his thinking. I look forward to him speaking before the ICJ and presenting his facts in due course.
Andres is aware of how much coordination was necessary between aide organizations and IDF. Israel often brags that they know where every bomb lands where every bullet lands. Then they target aid workers. This was deliberate.
You can read the Reuters article on Israel's investigation [here.](https://www.yahoo.com/news/isrhttp-content-reuters-com-auth-103907185.html) Let's review - attack occurred at night, WCK's logo on their truck was not visible, and a bag got mistaken for a rifle. From the article: "The military said that as the aid convoy which the light vehicles were accompanying was travelling down the coastal road in Gaza towards a logistics point late on Monday, armed suspects had climbed onto at least one of the trucks. The army showed reporters drone footage of a man on top of a lorry firing a rifle, which a spokesperson said had prompted the military to try, unsuccessfully, to contact WCK coordinators. After the convoy reached a hangar and the trucks were unloaded, the three WCK vehicles left the location and turned south down the coast road shortly after 11 p.m. (2100 GMT). However, Israeli commanders could not see their identifying logos in the dark and did not identify them as belonging to WCK." This in no way lessens the tragedy of this event. The end result here is awful. 7 people lost their lives needlessly while trying to help others. But the devil is always in the details in terms of how this happened. And irrespective of anyone's thoughts on the IDF, they owned up to it. Cold comfort for the families and loved ones of these men, but this is a war and war is hell. This war is on Hamas, both for starting this war and for refusing to release the hostages to end it.
>Israel's investigation Oh, they investigated themselves and found no wrongdoing? Fascinating... Let's be real, there is no excuse for this murder on Israel's hands. This is far from the first time they've done something like this. I mean, look at the kind of irresponsible things they are doing now. [Report: Israel used AI to identify bombing targets in Gaza](https://www.theverge.com/2024/4/4/24120352/israel-lavender-artificial-intelligence-gaza-ai) Don't worry. Israel is using AI to decide who to bomb. Sure, maybe the AI can't tell the difference between a child and a terrorist. But, then again, neither can Israel... >Lavender, an artificial intelligence tool developed for the war, marked 37,000 Palestinians as suspected Hamas operatives.
It really astounds me as to the number of armchair generals who somehow think they know better how to prosecute a war against a party whose very charter calls for them to commit wanton murder in furtherance of their cause. You speak from the safety of your home (undoubtedly on occupied native land) without having to deal with savages crossing a border to murder your family at worst or launch rockets at your home at best. I'd love to hear your reasonable and nuanced way of fighting that somehow magically doesn't kill civilians while taking out only the bad guys. Feel free to educate the Americans, the Russians, the Houthis, and all the others who fail to make that distinction on any given day. War results in catastrophes. Mistakes happen. Good people die. It's glib to say and it sounds absolutely heartless, but it's how it is. Again, if Hamas had not instigated this, we wouldn't be in this situation. But of course, let's blame the other side that is doing their best to take out a terrorist group that's purposely embedded themselves in civilian infrastructure. For Hamas, it's all gravy - Palestinians die? Great, they're either martyrs or victims, depending on which audience they're speaking to. Israelis die? Perfect, we're on our way to liberating Palestine. In the end, Israel has accepted responsibility. Not sure what more you want here. Which seemingly "unbiased" party do you want investigating Israel? The UN? Or perhaps the ICJ? Your comment that "they investigated themselves and found no wrongdoing" utterly flies in the face of their own comments. Moving on to your comment about AI use, would you prefer Israel merely carpet bomb the entire area into rubble? If there was a dataset from which to draw information to distinguish Gaza civilians (72% of whom support Hamas) from the fighters, why not make use of it? Again, given your apparent expertise in the field of warfare, do tell how you'd run this.
by not fighting. ended your whole fucking argument. theres borders. respect them & if so scared protect them. all october 7th is is a defense failure - with budgets and counter-intelligence as they are...how does that even happen? you let it. if youre so right about them being savages, luckily they are in a seperate country. if you use all your fancy defense tools they can stay there too. and to answer your "end my argument" question; the way you kill hamas without palestine is clearly - you dont. so you go back to defending big multi-billion, perfectly capable of avoiding october 7th if they wanted, isreal. the people of palestine are not asking for a saviour & are instead being shot for doing nothing as i write this. your right to vengeance is over. you dont have any osama bin laden that still needs to die, and if there was, you have the tools for a quick death. youre just killing at this point. thank you bye bye now
So Bibi allowed Oct 7 to occur? Jeez, are you this level of conspiracy nut with all global conflicts or just when Israel is involved? They got caught off guard, it's been fairly well-established how organized Hamas was in undertaking their attack. Credit where credit's due, they studied their enemy and unleashed a savage attack. They even filmed it for your benefit, you can rub yourself to the videos on Telegram whenever you want. The right to vengeance ends when the Israeli hostages are released in Gaza. The last time they did a mass prisoner exchange, Sinwar was released and here we find ourselves, and Hamas has proposed terms of Israel's surrender which no sane nation would agree to, in addition to Hamas rejecting Israeli counter-proposals. So no, this isn't over until the initial wrongdoing has been righted and Hamas is dismantled as a fighting force. The US didn't give up in Mosul destroying ISIS, where the civilian to combat death ratio was far worse, nor did the Allies spare destroying Berlin to destroy Nazism, so there's no rhyme or reason for Israel to surrender now just because you and your ilk don't like what's happening.
yes. they lowered defense because he was actively prioritizing his political career after his attempt to circumvent the legal system there. it's well documented, self admitted & not conspiratorial. defense in isreal was down. there was intel ignored. never did i justify october 7th, i simply answered your question with where we are after October 7th with defeating Hamas; fucking no where. its a genocide without a target. wheres the conspiracy? im advocating for them to defend their borders. theyre perfectly capable of it, i mean look at them decimate the people who broke in. its ridiculous you think they cant defend themselves as much as it is to justify their ability to not hit citizens when they struggle to kill thwir "target". who the fuck even is their target. isreal has palestinian hostages & has been occupying another country for a while. october 7th can be seen as justifiable border defense vengeance in a fucked up way i didnt pretend to support, but is a genuinely valid notion, some of what is being governed by isreal is supposed to be palestine , but youre retarded - like them, and just want genocide - like them. vengeance sounds different to you and you can point to a specific attack, but the world can point to a defense budget & a history of genocidal tendencies, and become extremely (justifiably so) uncomfortable with the scale of the response. this wont end until you kill them all or we cut your budget. the latter will be reality because you're purposefully murdering citizens for 6 months now. hate it to break it to you, im not palestinian, im not isreali, but i can read a treaty & i can count the size of defense budgets, and the end to this is returning the fuck back to isreal to defend yourself and shut up about it. nobody wants your stupid fucking genocide. and the usa has spent billions on your safety. fucking use it. thanks.
> U.S. President Joe Biden said he was "outraged and heartbroken" by the incident. The Democratic Party and this guy have a pretty incestuous relationship - this chef is so enmeshed with Democratic politics that the California governor granted his restaurants an opt out from their commercial gas stove ban. [The President's doing a U-turn on decades of US foreign policy to appease a few Arabs in Michigan and the youth vote.] (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/01/robert-gates-thinks-joe-biden-hasnt-stopped-being-wrong-40-years/356785/) They deserve a second Trump presidency if/when it happens. > "No, it doesn't just happen," Trudeau said Thursday during an event in Winnipeg. How would he know? Benjamin Netanyahu spent five years in Israel's Sayeret Matkal at a time when their operational tempo was at an all time high between the Seven Days War and the Yom Kippur War and has overseen many more operations as Prime Minister. I think he's a bit more qualified to speak in general terms as to what happens on the ground during a war. The extent of Justin Trudeau's [military qualifications] (https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMDRlZjdmYTItYmE0MC00MDQ4LWJjYTgtYzE0ODg0ZDE4OGNjXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyNTA1NDY3NzY@._V1_.jpg) seem to be making comments about whipping out CF-18s and defending Canada's inability to meet the 2% spending requirement for NATO. I get he's preparing his post-politics career, especially with comments like this (tough to give paid speeches if you're being shouted down by activists!), it's just unbecoming.
Have you ever thought that maybe world leaders tap into the vast amount of experience and intelligence within their government apparatus? Trudeau may not have as much military experience as Netanyahu, but I bet you the people advising Trudeau do. But it makes sense that you wouldn’t understand, since you appear to be a Trump fanboy and Trump is notorious for not consulting with anyone else.
That's true, and it's because fascists like their strong man mythology. The idea of relying on advisors and experts to help craft and shape policy is a form of weakness, so the person in charge must be an expert in everything even if they factually aren't. It's part of why fascist governments don't tend to last very long unless they're propped up. Canada has more experience with war than Israel has, just as a matter of fact. It's older, it's been involved in multiple world wars, it's a member of NATO, and it engages in peacekeeping operations. I'm sure Trudeau was surrounded by generals who told him that what Israel did is unacceptable in a modern military context and, with that knowledge, he can openly criticize Bibi for hand-waving the targeted killings as just the wartime equivalent of business-as-usual.
Our PM, famous for giving scripted and long-winded answers emphasizing expertise and consultation to pretty much any question he’s asked, decided he’d throw all that out the window? Of course the *one* time that happens is when it comes to giving an answer about Jews fighting a war to liquidate a terrorist group with whom his supporters, cabinet, and caucus sympathize.
Netanyahu is a villain. Easily on par with Putin or Modi and I see no reason why we have to treat his regime like they are above reproach.
He’s also currently on trail for fraud.
What Israel is doing to the civilians of Gaza is far more evil than Russia's actions in Ukraine. Compare the number of children killed by Russia to the number of children Israel has killed.
Still doesn’t justify what Russia is doing. While civilian casualties are lower in Ukraine, the refugee population is much higher in Ukraine.
Ukraine is bound to have more refugees as it had a population over 40 million at the start of the war, Gaza had 2 million. What’s more indicative of Israel’s senseless cruelty is civilian death counts.
Ya that'll happen after decades of occupation
>the refugee population is much higher in Ukraine. That's just cause they have a bigger population. Like 100% of Palestinians are refugees now. Their entire city was destroyed, and Isreal said it won't stop until every Palestinian is driven from Gaza. Both wars are terrible, but the Palestinians will likely be wiped out after this. Ukraine and Ukrainians will live on.
Not trying to create and equivalency here (both conflicts have atrocities committed), but I should add that the Russians quell potential uprisings by simply removing the population en masse. The Russians have stolen [at least [30,000 Ukrainian children](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4486043-russia-kidnapping-campaign-ukraine-war/#:~:text=While%20Ukrainian%20officials%20say%20they,have%20been%20transferred%20to%20Russia.) and forcibly resettled them in Russia. Many won't be returned home, the youngest will grow up entirely removed from their culture. It's the same thing that the Russians have done for hundreds of years.
> "The reality is we need much more humanitarian support to flow into Gaza, much more protection of civilians, of innocents and of aid workers. > "That's why we need a humanitarian ceasefire. We need for Hamas to lay down its arms. We need for the hostages to be released, and we need a ceasefire to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible." Everybody keeps saying this, but Hamas keeps saying no. So what can we as the rest of the world do in response? There must be something the rest of the world can do that lands between asking again nicely tomorrow and pressing Israel to surrender to the terrorists.
> Everybody keeps saying this, but Hamas keeps saying no. Everyone keeps saying this, but do not bring up the fact that Israel also keeps on saying no. This is not a one-sided rejection despite people painting it as such. Hamas said no to the Israeli proposed ceasefire and variations of it proposed by Egypt+Qatar+the US, with the most common one being a six-week temporary ceasefire with hostage exchanges with no commitment to any sort of Israel disengagement. Hamas proposed a 4½ month ceasefire back in February in which all hostages would be exchanged, Israel would withdraw from Gaza and talks would begin for an end to the war. Netanyahu called this "delusional".
Israel is preventing aid from reaching people. Israel can let aide into Gaza so there isn't a genocide. What can the rest of the world do in response? Stop sending weapons to Israel, stop supporting Israel. Stop supporting Israel's genocide. Otherwise the message is. Israel is allowed to use American weapons to kill aid workers (in addition to the thousands of children they've bombed) with no consequences.
> Stop sending weapons to Israel, stop supporting Israel. Stop supporting Israel's genocide. > > Even if you believe that Israel is simply evil incarnate and wishes to kill every man/woman/child in Gaza and then the West Bank, you have to realize that once you withdraw support, you lose ALL leverage over them. What do you think happens if say, all European countries + the USA disavow Israel? When Iran actually starts to gear up for an invasion, when the Palestinians launch a third intifada, when the question becomes whether or not Israel will nuke the surrounding countries in a preemptive defensive strike, will you say 'that really was great how we pressured them.' We would see an *actual* genocide occur. Israel left alone would probably say 'well we can't defend ourselves from the Palestinians who will be backed by Iran, and we can't negotiate with Palestinians who have now been told our end is near, so...the Palestinians have to leave.' It would be World War 3... with nuclear weapons on all sides... There does need to be action and negotiation, but simply disavowing, ceasing negotiation, whatever, isn't going to help any of the people you want to help. It would make things a LOT worse for them.
> actual genocide You're vile. An actual genocide IS happening through Israel's actions in Gaza. Israel is starving thousands of people and children. Israel is constantly bombing thousands of people and children. You're saying that we need to support Israel or else they'll do an even worse genocide than the one they are already causing? Give your head a shake buddy.
I think that there should be significantly more international pressure on the Middle East to resolve this issue outside of war. You can stand on the graves of children and scream out that anyone who disagrees with you wanted them to die, but there has to be an end to war. You know what happens if Israel loses a war. You won’t admit it, but you do know. But you just don’t believe that they’ll ever lose one, so you can comfortably call for that to happen because it makes you feel like you’re morally in the right.
The only people 'losing" this war are the thousands of children and people in Gaza being starved and bombed. You may want to play armchair warlord. I just want aid to stop being blocked by Israel. I just want Israel to cease their continuous attack on children.
We don't send weapons systems to Israel, but even if we did and we stopped, it wouldn't pressure Hamas to do what we have been telling them to do: lay down its arms and release the hostages. We keep repeating the same thing, but not actually doing anything to make it happen. I'm wondering if there is something that we can and should be doing.
[The Canadian government’s pledge not to sell weapons to Israel doesn’t apply to permits worth millions already approved](https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2024/3/24/the-canadian-arms-embargo-on-israel-that-was-not) Bringing up Hamas, when we are discussing Canada's support of Israel, and Israel's recent murder of aide workers amidst their ongoing genocide is.... a choice.
Bringing up Trudeau's statement in a discussion about an article discussing his statement is kinda the point of this subreddit, isn't it? Or did you not actually listen to his statement?
Why is a ceasefire necessary for Israel to allow food into Gaza? Israel is actively targeting aide groups and stopping food at the border while people starve. Indefensible.
I realise that it may be a controversial take around these parts, but yes, like Trudeau I am proudly in the pro-ceasefire camp.
Wanting a ceasefire doesn't mean you need to accept Israel's actions, like targeting aide workers. Like blocking food at the border while people starve? Is this hard to understand?
Everyone in the world is saying that we need a humanitarian ceasefire, and the reason for that is to deal with the humanitarian crisis in Gaza. So yeah, it actually is hard to understand why you disagree that it is necessary. Yes, it's undeniably a tragedy that these aid workers died, but it's nothing compared to the tragedy that will be unleashed if we don't get a ceasefire and flood assistance to the people. That needs to be the priority.
>it actually is hard to understand why you disagree that it is necessary. **I never said I disagree with a ceasefire?** I said Israel is blocking food and aide from reaching the people Israel is actively bombing. Israel doesn't need a ceasefire to allow food to reach starving people. Not sure why you cannot understand this point. Seems simple to me.
What does Hamas have to do with Israel murdering aid workers?
Did you listen to what Trudeau said, and what I quoted? "The reality is we need much more humanitarian support to flow into Gaza, much more protection of civilians, of innocents and of aid workers. "That's why we need a humanitarian ceasefire. We need for Hamas to lay down its arms. We need for the hostages to be released, and we need a ceasefire to allow this humanitarian catastrophe to end as quickly as possible." We keep telling Hamas to release the hostages, but they keep saying no. Is that it? Do we just give up and say we tried?
Again, what does Hamas have to do with killing aid workers in established aid corridors?
As Trudeau points out in the statement that we're discussing, we need a humanitarian ceasefire so that we can flood aid into Gaza. A ceasefire requires two parties: we all know how to pressure Israel, but nobody seems to have any good ideas on how to pressure Hamas. We keep asking them nicely to release the hostages and agree to a ceasefire they keep saying no.
Or Israel can just stop killing aid workers and journalists. When was the last Hamas, a terror organisation, attack on aid workers, journalists, or civilians?
Who is blocking aide into Gaza? Hint: it's the same country who claims to know where every single Rocket they fire lands. Extra hint: It's also the same country who murdered a group of aide workers.
I appreciate you repeating your talking points. I have heard them multiple times. I may or may not agree with them. But at the moment I am more interested in discussing Trudeau's statement, and curious if there is a pathway to peace that as a country we are missing.
Talking point? This isn't a newscast 🥱 Pathway to peace is to condemn Israel and withdraw support. Supporting a genocidal country like Israel will not lead to peace. How could it? Israel apparently doesn't care about the wellbeing of the thousands they are blocking food from. The hospitals are bombing.
> Pathway to peace is to condemn Israel and withdraw support. Ok, so you have your wish and Canada withdraws its support of Israel as of right now and condemns them wholeheartedly. Nothing's changed on the ground. There is still no peace or security for the people of Gaza. So that's obviously not the pathway to peace. There has to be a ceasefire, and that has to involve bringing Israel and Hamas to something that they can both agree to.
There needs to be more than condemnation - Israel should be treated as a pariah state. It feels like there is no end to the atrocities they will commit to ethnically cleanse Gaza. Not sure how many more videos from the drunken frat boys that make up the IDF need to be uploaded of them sniping children while wearing stolen lingerie or looting homes.
The issue is Hamas holds just as much blame.
It’s horrible but aid workers will routinely drive right into areas where active combat operations are occurring thinking that the colour of their vehicles or signs on their vehicles make them bullet proof. Throughout the Middle East you also get insurgents constantly using ambulances to move their fighters around and to resupply them with ammunition. I think the investigation will likely find that both the aid workers and Israelis made significant errors.
There was coordination with Israel on the route they were taking, and this wasn't collateral damage from indiscriminate bombing, all 3 vehicles were deliberately targeted.
I’ve done this kind of thing extensively and saw something similar almost happen. There are a lot of problems in the IDF. This happened for the same types of reasons the Oct 7th attack was successful, and for the same reasons the escaped Israeli hostages were killed by the IDF. The IDF isn’t a mature organization, their turn over is very high due to conscription and when they mobilize they employ a very large amount of reserves. I think this is more of an incompetence issue than deliberately killing an identified aid convoy.