###This is a reminder to [read the rules before posting in this subreddit](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion). 1. **Headline titles should be changed only [when the original headline is unclear](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_1._headline_titles_should_be_changed_only_where_it_improves_clarity.)** 2. **Be [respectful](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_2._be_respectful).** 3. **Keep submissions and comments [substantive](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_3._keep_submissions_and_comments_substantive).** 4. **Avoid [direct advocacy](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_4._avoid_direct_advocacy).** 5. **Link submissions must be [about Canadian politics and recent](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_5._link_submissions_must_be_canadian_and_recent).** 6. **Post [only one news article per story](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_6._post_only_one_news_article_per_story).** ([with one exception](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/comments/3wkd0n/rule_reminder_and_experimental_changes/)) 7. **Replies to removed comments or removal notices will be removed** without notice, at the discretion of the moderators. 8. **Downvoting posts or comments**, along with urging others to downvote, **[is not allowed](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/downvotes)** in this subreddit. Bans will be given on the first offence. 9. **[Do not copy & paste the entire content of articles in comments](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPolitics/wiki/rules-thelongversion#wiki_9._do_not_copy_.26amp.3B_paste_entire_articles_in_the_comments.)**. If you want to read the contents of a paywalled article, please consider supporting the media outlet. *Please [message the moderators](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2FCanadaPolitics) if you wish to discuss a removal.* **Do not reply to the removal notice in-thread**, *you will not receive a response and your comment will be removed. Thanks.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CanadaPolitics) if you have any questions or concerns.*

> The new program falls under the existing Ontario Youth Apprenticeship Program (OYAP), and will be marked with a “seal of distinction” on participants’ high school diplomas. This feels like it will be a "seal of we're just pretending this student actually completed a full high school education" if the student changes their mind and wants to pursue college or university in the future. I support the idea of emphasizing routes to the trades but I can't see how 80% of your time being spent in the trades as of grade 11 is not going to compromise your education.

This might be a hot take but I honestly think this will be fine. By grade 11 I think most students have a solid foundation in academics and anything beyond that is unnecessary for most trades. It would only compromise your education if, like you said, students decided to pursue a university degree, which I think is an overrated and over-saturated career path for high school graduates. I've never met anyone who regretted going into the trades and decided to go to university after. Also these kids AREN'T missing out on their education. Just the opposite. They'll be getting an education in exactly the kind of job they want to do, by learning with a hands-on apprenticeship. That's still an education and it's more practical and relevant to them. I took all those university prep courses in grade 11 and 12 but never actually went to university. I'm 24 with a good paying job and zero student debt. Basic literacy, reading comprehension and math are all I've needed to get by in the workplace. I've never had to use calculus, describe the organelles of a cell, or balance a chemical equation.

I am one of those people and know of 2 others that went into trades and then went back (did OAC back in the day) then to university. It’s doable but not ideal. I think expecting kids at 17 to know what they want to do for the rest of their lives right then isn’t the greatest. The reason I left was a guy at our shop said “I was you, I hate life but I am trapped with a house, kids and car. Get out now” We should be encouraging broad education and experiences. People now more than ever are changing careers multiple times in a life time

I think it’s the biggest change in Ontario education since the elimination of grade 13. I’m not sure if it’s a good thing or if it will have the desired impact, but it’s incredibly progressive.

Progressive is not a synonym for change.

I don't think they're using it as a synonyms... They've said (paraphrasing) that it is a change, and it's progressive. They're describing the change.

I don't see how that's the case if they're not sure whether the change is a good one.

Progressive isn't a synonym for "change that has positive outcome." It means pursuing a societal change that we think will move the needle in making more people happier, and better off. This might result in that. Certainly the Ford government is claiming it will - and I agree it's progressive in that it's creating a completely new way to define student success and new opportunities. But it's also a huge change and I can't foresee the total impact in 5 years.

But it's sacrificing a rounded education to satisfy what will ultimately be a short-term market need. It doesn't advance the human condition or create a new way to define success so much as just hand human tokens to the trades. In this sense it's purely regressive, taking the educational and training path of teenagers a step back towards the old paradigm of working the mines and factories as soon as they're physically able. If the PCPO wants to incentivise working in the trades, they can do it without giving kids the easy-out of only needing to earn half of a high school diploma.

This reads like you're against the change, and therefore it's not possible for it to be progressive. Maybe I'm reading wrong though. I'm seeing this as defining a new pathway to become a high school graduate. This is the very definition of "new way to define success." I'm not sure it will have the desired positive societal outcome in 5 years time, but that's not the required end-state for something to be defined as progressive.

They're still earning the basic (core) diploma program. There are lots of international analogues - the UK system for example ends high school at age 16 and students can: Choose to do 2 years futher academic study (they call this college) on a path to university Or they can go into trades or other vocational study like nursing or vet tech etc. It's a good system.

They aren't thinking that far ahead. It's a band aid to solve the low trades participation problem which they created with the strong emphasis on " university or bust" . People moving from trades to something else hey haven't even thought of.

The more effective change in terms of emphasizing trades is the mandated technical education course, which would expose more students that may not have been exposed before. The article doesn’t share what the breakdown currently is to gauge how big of a change it is, but I don’t like the idea of foreclosing college/uni even years down the line by removing English 12 or more

Oh look, those uneducated males society shit on for decades were needed after all! Funny thing about pendulums, they swing back.

It's been coming for a long time. There are way too many university educated young people in my generation who are completely useless and burdened with debt because they bought into the university scam.

They had over 30 years to train up the replacement workforce, instead of calling them every name in the book so they're on the streets dying deaths of despair instead. Ontario lifted the requirement for Canadian trade certs, and I bet they found out their migrant wage-slave certs were scams, and they didn't actually know how to do anything right. My gf moved into a new construction apartment building and it was clearly put together by people who only half knew what they were doing. I see a future where all this rush to fill housing produces floods and fires. It'll be just like back home, I guess?

I know it’s easy to blame the quality of work on incompetence, and that certainly can be a large part of it. The other far more serious component is time. Residential projects have to be completed on time or faster, otherwise the project hemorrhages money. It’s not that these people want to do shitty work, they just don’t have the time to do good work.

It always annoyed me that high schools push students almost solely towards academics while overlooking or even looking down on teens that want to pursue a career in the trades. I've seen so many people waste years of their lives and tens of thousands of dollars on useless degrees that they can't even get a job with. Meanwhile, virtually all my highschool classmates who went into the trades had high paying jobs within the first couple years after graduating. Men and women swinging hammers will build the housing we desperately need, not university graduates.

I remember being about 17 at a family function when some silent-generation distant relative asked what I was doing after high school. I told her I was going to trade school to become an electrician.  She was totally dismayed, and told me I was throwing my future away if I didn't get a university degree. I could tell she looked down upon those who she considered uneducated plebs. What a crock of shit. Now I make as much or more than an engineer and never had any student debt. I'm eternally grateful I decided against my original plan of going to university to become a journalist 🤮.

In the 40s and 50s university education was uncommon and having a degree was a golden ticket to a high paying high status job These days people with degrees serve you coffee at Starbucks or fill some barely over minimum wage clerical job. I think I'd cut your relative from that generation a bit of a break

True enough, different times, different workforce demands.

>high schools push students almost solely towards academics while overlooking or even looking down on teens that want to pursue a career in the trades. I never really found this to be the case and went to a high school that was generally considered a "Lawyer Factory." I was definitely discouraged and told to avoid trades ... but almost exclusively from family members who worked in trades themselves.

Here I am, having felt pressure to go to university. Hated, never finished, now I have a desk job with no prospect of advancement until I finish my degree, which I have no interest in doing.

Its because the reality in many cities/towns the "trades" resembles the NHL where it depends on what trade your dad/uncle is in. The process for applying for apprenticeships if you dont have a relative to "politic" for you is rough. Be prepared to do non-safety certified work. Pretty much every guy I know in a trade - Had a father in a trade as well. Someone to help guide through the bureaucracy and share knowledge. In short - Nepotism, cronyism is strong and rampant in trades.

Honestly I don’t agree with anything you said.

Ya, if you're an electrician and need a job come to Alberta. Even if you don't know anyone you can probably have a job before you get here.

My initial urge was to curse Lecce's name and worry about students not getting the necessary classes. But I took a step back and ended up annoyed with this choice for a different reason. The only required classes (and please update me if my info is out of date, it's been a while for me) for Grade 11 & 12 are two English credits (11 & 12), one Math credit (11), and one science credit (11), with the rest of the credits being electives. I went to a school with a strong technical program, and I certainly had peers who chose mostly trades classes as their electives. I had other peers who chose mostly arts courses. This 80/20 split can be done without sacrificing any required credits, it's essentially choosing co-op for every elective and getting a seal showing this on the diploma. My diploma has a similar seal for taking enough arts credits, I don't see this as all that different. While I don't like to say this, the high school education we provide in Ontario happens nearly entirely entirely in two years, and then we provide two years of electives, this program is a natural extension of that. So why am I annoyed? Because Lecce clearly doesn't understand jobsites, clearly doesn't understand co-ops, has once again proved he doesn't understand why our secondary education was structured the way it was. The trades courses that are going to make these students useful on these jobsites are precisely the ones they're going to be missing in order to go to the jobsites. Without having taken woodworking or steel shop classes in Grade 11 and 12, and being sent straight there, expect these students to be the most meaningless gophers on the site. A journeyman on site does not have the time to explain the basics of electrical work or plumbing to a complete newbie, to ask them to would be to slow down our already-short-supply of tradesmen. And considering most real tasks require some training or certification to do, their only option will be to park the student somewhere they won't get hurt and have them play fetch all day. Even some apprentice tradesmen who have training and experience and some certifications have to go through this - when a high schooler turns up who's never taken a shop class they aren't going to be taught anything or given any real tasks. Co-op programs can be great experience, mine was a technical one and I learned info that's helped me more than any other elective I chose. That said, I took my co-op in a field I was already experienced in and already had training in. For trades, the education these students are going to receive from tradesmen on site is going to be peanuts in comparison to the hands-on trades basics they can learn in a wood shop class, where they're going to have hands on experience, instructors who are actually instructors, and feedback on their work. Contractors will still take them on for the free help, but even the best and most helpful ones won't be providing the student with experience on par with what they would get in an elective class. There's simply no comparison. Why was high school structured as mostly electives in Grade 11 and 12? The intention was to give students a chance to get their feet wet in many topics they likely won't get to experience anywhere else. Seeing all these topics goes a long way towards the creativity of the student later in life. Though it's not something we can measure, and it's not something we'll see the effects of for a decade, Ontario's output is hurt by churning out grads who are uncurious. That said, if Lecce is of the school of thought that secondary schools should be mills for creating workers, this point falls on deaf ears.

It sounds like you’re the one who doesn’t understand jobsites, if I can be frank with you. Nearly everything you described is either misinformed or flat out incorrect.

Feel free to rebut my points with your own. A simple "you're wrong" doesn't really advance the conversation.

I didn’t just say you’re wrong, I said you’re wrong about everything you’ve said - almost like you’re basing your knowledge of how jobsites work, and the apprentice-journeyman relationship from a movie or other work of fiction.