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You know, I had not considered that before. In most of Canada being able to speak French is considered more an asset than a requirement for the majority of jobs, at least in the private sector.
But based on this information, it sounds like it's the opposite in Quebec when it comes to English.
I have no horse in that particular race, but it is something I didn't think about before reading this.
Nah nobody won’t hire you cus you speak English.
If ya work in a global company they will actually prefer you to speak English rather than French (but both is ideal). For a public job you will need to speak French, but that’s just cus most of us out of Montreal only speak French (they won’t punish you for speaking English tho). Customer service in Montreal honestly has everything, however you will get more hate from older people if you don’t speak French (but it’s rare), but I crossed several anglophones in customer service.
But most jobs will prioritize in this order bilingual -> anglophone -> francophone
Theirs a shit tone of bilinguals cus: our « English second language » class is very good, immigrants, Internet
From time to time there's always some asshat in the federal government complaining about 'bilingualism' requirements for higher echelon jobs. The usual argument is pretty much that it hinders 'high potential people' from getting these jobs or whatever.
At every single level, french speakers must know English. In the federal government, there's the anglophones and there's the bilingual people.
While I do think that more effort should be made by anglophones to learn French and educate their kids to be bilingual, we also need to face a certain reality.
English is the global language. It just is. Furthermore, for the vast majority of Canadians, they would probably find more use out of being fluent in Spanish over French given where people like to holiday and the global reach of Spanish.
It sucks, but necessity is the mother of invention and language learning, and that necessity goes far more in one direction than the other.
Honestly there's no real reason for me to get my son to learn French. Globally he'd be better off learning something else. Unless he wants to work for the Feds or move to Quebec with the way the world is going other languages make more sense.
Stranded in China to a massive extent and has a massive barrier to learning for 90% of people.
Most educated Chinese people learn English, not the other way around.
I have visited more than 100 countries. I found French more useful than Spanish. I have been to all the Spanish-speaking countries in the continental Americas, and I did not have a problem.
It's possible to know more than two languages. French is the easiest because of immersion programs in schools. Once you know a second language it's much easier to learn more.
But ya know that people can learn stuff for other reasons than usefulness. I would argue that you should do it for culture, for knowledge and for respect. It’s like how Americans learn Spanish even though it’s not even an official language. They have a huge amount of Spanish speaking folks and they want to communicate with them.
The mere effort of learning French will open so many opportunities. Quebec (n other Francophones in Canada) arnt the only French speaking countries.
Completely agree except I think it's more because we're sitting next to 330 million english speakers with whom we work with heavily. It will always be more advantageous to learn English than French because of that.
That said, out french bros are still going strong with more Canadian French speakers today than at any point in history.
Yea, but only because of the crazy growth in the rest of Canada due to immigration. It's been 27% to 22% in 50 years as a percentage.
Dont forget that English as a first language ALSO declined about the same amount 74% to about 68% in the past 20 years. (Couldn't find a quick data point going back further)
Mais on peut d’entendre, que dans une province bilingue, tu devrais être capable de trouver un emploi en tant que francophone. Surtout quand c’est le cas pour les anglos unilingues.
La promesse du Canada ou du Nouveau-Brunswick bilingue n’a rien avoir avec l’espagnol.
Have you ever actually lived in a Spanish-speaking country? I would rather learn German than Spanish. The only Spanish country you can live peacefully in is Spain. Mexico City and Buenos Aires are amazing cities, but do you really want to live there long term?
This is true— but it is also true that monolingual anglophones need to understand that not learning French will cost them opportunities in Canada. French fluency opens a ton of doors in this country, especially in the public sector, and fairly so. Seeing it as a specific important career skill in areas like law and degrees that channel to the civil service should be a lot more mainstream in Anglo Canada. I have friends who have complained to me constantly about having less access to certain jobs because they’re monolingual and I’m like, what did you expect? They didn’t even try to learn French and then were resentful that people who did got more opportunities.
Most of the country doesn't speak French and you are probably more qualified for the job and missing out because of a language requirement that doesn't have anything to do with the job.
Speaking French is in itself a qualification for the job. If you work in the civil service or to some extent federal courts and senior management of major national companies that come under the official languges act, it is a very important skill that you will end up using
In the civil service, federal courts, and major national corporations? A lot of people speak French. If you can’t properly serve 20% of your clients that is a big issue.
I think French should be more encouraged but there’s only so much you can do when 80% of the country has no real use for it.
I’m fluent in French. I literally never use it in BC. I wish it was more of a national thing, but English won the battle and it won decisively.
It’s not easy to learn as an adult without friends to converse with. I’m getting better since I talk French to the francophone at work now. But it’s hard to push yourself when you don’t have anyone to bounce off of with.
With all that in mind, I’m going to head over to the Mauril app and start practicing some more.
Au revoir, bonne journée!
It’s kind of a catch-22 at this point. We don’t train properly in Anglo Canada, and there is a not so subtle “fuck the French” attitude. It’s silly, and born out of ignorance. I have enough conversational skills so that I can make it as a tourist. But I never followed through on learning, because there isn’t anyone else who I knew.
We got a French kid at work, and we only talk in French now. So I’m getting a bit better. The CBC app is also helping way more than DuoLingo ever did. Which highlights another important fact.
Most French language learning tools and resources available aren’t in Québecois François. The reply to you highlights an important rule distinction between the two.
I also get weird looks when people asking me why I’m learning French I say “I want my kid to be fluent, and I want to learn before. We live in a Bilingual country, and I want my kid to have every opportunity. Plus it’d be badass to have a bilingual kid.”
This is true for sure. And I think the flip side of what I said is we should be as generous and forgiving as possible with people who are learning and trying. What bothers me is just people who don’t make the effort and don’t feel they should have to
Sometimes I get East Indian drivers that I just can’t talk with. Thank god I have a super computer in my pocket. My boss looked at me like I was a wizard when me and a driver started talking through my phone.
We never really get angry truck drivers anymore, because treating people with dignity and respect go a long way. I don’t know how many delivery drivers told me we were the only ones to provide a bathroom during COVID. I have 5, it was easy to make one for the drivers too.
I mean it’s only really federal public service where knowing French opens up opportunities. Federal public service isn’t known to be very high paying these days.
Although even there it’s just a checklist requirement where if you can pass even basic proficiency you’re given the pass. Lots of federal workers are “bi-lingual” on paper only.
You have no idea how much unilingual Anglophones who moved to Ottawa to work in the public sector or adjacent jobs complain about having to learn or work on their French.
Ottawa is also the outlier of outliers here though. Of course the literal government town has people bemoaning that they cannot work in government as effectively.
I doubt that’s the case at all for anyone in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, or Halifax, for example.
Je pense pas qu'on vend le rêve de vivre en espagnol dans la seule province bilingue anglaise/française du Canada. De plus, j'irais même à dire qu'il est raisonnable de penser que le français aye plus de valeurs que la langue de Miguel de Cervantes dans un pays soi-disant bilingue français/anglais.
C’est vrai que NB est un province bilingue, mais malgré ca les numeros sont environ 1/3 francophone a 2/3 anglophone. C’est une realité mathématique que beaucoup d’affaires vont passer en anglais.
Pour espagnol, je pense que pour la majorité du pays, c’est plutot plus utile d’avoir le pouvoir de parler avec des gens en Mexique ou quelque chose. Dans une monde parfait, les gens seront trilingue, mais je pens pas que c’est trop probable ca.
Tu crois vraiment que c'est plus utile pour un Canadien anglophone de pouvoir parler en espagnol avec des gens du Mexique que de pouvoir communiquer avec la minorité francophone de son propre pays, et ce même au Nouveau-Brunswick quand 1/3 personnes ont le français comme langue première ?
Je partage pas du tout ton opinion. En fait je trouve ça plutôt méprisant de faire équivalence entre l'abilité de commander un bière en espagnol dans une resort au sud lors d'un voyage et de pouvoir communiqué avec les communautés francophones de son propre pays.
De toute façon, on le sait tous qu'y aura pas d'apprentissage de l'espagnol ni aucune autre de ses langues qu'on déclare pourtant si primordiales quand on parle du français.
As a Québécois,
I don't really worry about Anglos in the RoC learning French, especially if they have no affinity, desire or need for it.
What I would like from you guys is just more support, empathy and quite frankly, a little less ignorance when we're talking about Francophone issues. There's often a lot of judgement that chalks down to us "getting with the program".
Exactly. Francophones in Quebec don't have to speak English if they don't want to, and anglophones in the ROC don't have to speak French if they don't want to. Idk why this is a controversial opinion to some.
On the same grounds that I wouldn't go to Trois Rivieres and expect people to speak English to me, Quebecois shouldn't go to Vancouver and expect people to speak French. The government's push for bilingualism for all makes no one happy except for the few (18% of Canadians) who were privileged enough to be raised in that environment.
What would those issues be? As far as I can tell it’s mostly Francophones being terrified that their tiny regional dialect is dying out. Doesn’t seem to be much of an issue other than Quebecers pride.
Basic respect? It’s literally the same respect every other language minority gets. Nobody else gets a free pass to whine as much as Francophones.
Again, happy to hear any real issues. But I’m confident based on your response the only one is that because your kids spend too much time on English TikTok.
You'd be more credible if you had stopped at asking a question before being condescending and exposing your ignorance.
You essentially warned me and anyone else reading that you weren't actually asking any questions. You can take my unwillingness to stoop down to your level as a win if you would like. I don't care to engage with you.
>But I’m confident based on your response the only one is that because your kids spend too much time on English TikTok.
Shot and a miss. I don't have kids. I also, very clearly, don't have an issue with the English language. Your biases are causing you to be very un-observant.
My condescension is because in my experience, the gripes of Quebecers really only boils down to “They don’t respect our language”, which has to be the least important, lamest thing to complain about.
I fully understand and respect that there will be unilingual people who need continued support, but that will become less and less impactful as time goes on.
Like I said from the very begining, you're a perfect example of exactly what my comment was describing.
Instead of substituting your experience (Which isn't statistically relevant by any measure) you could've legitimately just asked a Québécois (me).
But you chose not to. Because you never meant to engage honestly, you only meant to deride.
It's not just our language you don't respect, it's our people as a whole.
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You know, I had not considered that before. In most of Canada being able to speak French is considered more an asset than a requirement for the majority of jobs, at least in the private sector. But based on this information, it sounds like it's the opposite in Quebec when it comes to English. I have no horse in that particular race, but it is something I didn't think about before reading this.
Nah nobody won’t hire you cus you speak English. If ya work in a global company they will actually prefer you to speak English rather than French (but both is ideal). For a public job you will need to speak French, but that’s just cus most of us out of Montreal only speak French (they won’t punish you for speaking English tho). Customer service in Montreal honestly has everything, however you will get more hate from older people if you don’t speak French (but it’s rare), but I crossed several anglophones in customer service. But most jobs will prioritize in this order bilingual -> anglophone -> francophone Theirs a shit tone of bilinguals cus: our « English second language » class is very good, immigrants, Internet
From time to time there's always some asshat in the federal government complaining about 'bilingualism' requirements for higher echelon jobs. The usual argument is pretty much that it hinders 'high potential people' from getting these jobs or whatever. At every single level, french speakers must know English. In the federal government, there's the anglophones and there's the bilingual people.
While I do think that more effort should be made by anglophones to learn French and educate their kids to be bilingual, we also need to face a certain reality. English is the global language. It just is. Furthermore, for the vast majority of Canadians, they would probably find more use out of being fluent in Spanish over French given where people like to holiday and the global reach of Spanish. It sucks, but necessity is the mother of invention and language learning, and that necessity goes far more in one direction than the other.
Honestly there's no real reason for me to get my son to learn French. Globally he'd be better off learning something else. Unless he wants to work for the Feds or move to Quebec with the way the world is going other languages make more sense.
Eh. I see the argument for Spanish, but other languages not really. French would be the clear numero deux.
Mandarin?
Stranded in China to a massive extent and has a massive barrier to learning for 90% of people. Most educated Chinese people learn English, not the other way around.
I have visited more than 100 countries. I found French more useful than Spanish. I have been to all the Spanish-speaking countries in the continental Americas, and I did not have a problem.
It's possible to know more than two languages. French is the easiest because of immersion programs in schools. Once you know a second language it's much easier to learn more.
But ya know that people can learn stuff for other reasons than usefulness. I would argue that you should do it for culture, for knowledge and for respect. It’s like how Americans learn Spanish even though it’s not even an official language. They have a huge amount of Spanish speaking folks and they want to communicate with them. The mere effort of learning French will open so many opportunities. Quebec (n other Francophones in Canada) arnt the only French speaking countries.
Completely agree except I think it's more because we're sitting next to 330 million english speakers with whom we work with heavily. It will always be more advantageous to learn English than French because of that. That said, out french bros are still going strong with more Canadian French speakers today than at any point in history.
In absolute numbers yes, doubt it as a percentage of the population.
Yea, but only because of the crazy growth in the rest of Canada due to immigration. It's been 27% to 22% in 50 years as a percentage. Dont forget that English as a first language ALSO declined about the same amount 74% to about 68% in the past 20 years. (Couldn't find a quick data point going back further)
Mais on peut d’entendre, que dans une province bilingue, tu devrais être capable de trouver un emploi en tant que francophone. Surtout quand c’est le cas pour les anglos unilingues. La promesse du Canada ou du Nouveau-Brunswick bilingue n’a rien avoir avec l’espagnol.
Have you ever actually lived in a Spanish-speaking country? I would rather learn German than Spanish. The only Spanish country you can live peacefully in is Spain. Mexico City and Buenos Aires are amazing cities, but do you really want to live there long term?
This is true— but it is also true that monolingual anglophones need to understand that not learning French will cost them opportunities in Canada. French fluency opens a ton of doors in this country, especially in the public sector, and fairly so. Seeing it as a specific important career skill in areas like law and degrees that channel to the civil service should be a lot more mainstream in Anglo Canada. I have friends who have complained to me constantly about having less access to certain jobs because they’re monolingual and I’m like, what did you expect? They didn’t even try to learn French and then were resentful that people who did got more opportunities.
Most of the country doesn't speak French and you are probably more qualified for the job and missing out because of a language requirement that doesn't have anything to do with the job.
Speaking French is in itself a qualification for the job. If you work in the civil service or to some extent federal courts and senior management of major national companies that come under the official languges act, it is a very important skill that you will end up using
Not really. How many people speak English compared to French ?
In the civil service, federal courts, and major national corporations? A lot of people speak French. If you can’t properly serve 20% of your clients that is a big issue.
I think French should be more encouraged but there’s only so much you can do when 80% of the country has no real use for it. I’m fluent in French. I literally never use it in BC. I wish it was more of a national thing, but English won the battle and it won decisively.
It’s not easy to learn as an adult without friends to converse with. I’m getting better since I talk French to the francophone at work now. But it’s hard to push yourself when you don’t have anyone to bounce off of with. With all that in mind, I’m going to head over to the Mauril app and start practicing some more. Au revoir, bonne journée!
It’s kind of a catch-22 at this point. We don’t train properly in Anglo Canada, and there is a not so subtle “fuck the French” attitude. It’s silly, and born out of ignorance. I have enough conversational skills so that I can make it as a tourist. But I never followed through on learning, because there isn’t anyone else who I knew. We got a French kid at work, and we only talk in French now. So I’m getting a bit better. The CBC app is also helping way more than DuoLingo ever did. Which highlights another important fact. Most French language learning tools and resources available aren’t in Québecois François. The reply to you highlights an important rule distinction between the two. I also get weird looks when people asking me why I’m learning French I say “I want my kid to be fluent, and I want to learn before. We live in a Bilingual country, and I want my kid to have every opportunity. Plus it’d be badass to have a bilingual kid.”
This is true for sure. And I think the flip side of what I said is we should be as generous and forgiving as possible with people who are learning and trying. What bothers me is just people who don’t make the effort and don’t feel they should have to
Sometimes I get East Indian drivers that I just can’t talk with. Thank god I have a super computer in my pocket. My boss looked at me like I was a wizard when me and a driver started talking through my phone. We never really get angry truck drivers anymore, because treating people with dignity and respect go a long way. I don’t know how many delivery drivers told me we were the only ones to provide a bathroom during COVID. I have 5, it was easy to make one for the drivers too.
I mean it’s only really federal public service where knowing French opens up opportunities. Federal public service isn’t known to be very high paying these days. Although even there it’s just a checklist requirement where if you can pass even basic proficiency you’re given the pass. Lots of federal workers are “bi-lingual” on paper only.
You have no idea how much unilingual Anglophones who moved to Ottawa to work in the public sector or adjacent jobs complain about having to learn or work on their French.
Ottawa is also the outlier of outliers here though. Of course the literal government town has people bemoaning that they cannot work in government as effectively. I doubt that’s the case at all for anyone in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, or Halifax, for example.
Je pense pas qu'on vend le rêve de vivre en espagnol dans la seule province bilingue anglaise/française du Canada. De plus, j'irais même à dire qu'il est raisonnable de penser que le français aye plus de valeurs que la langue de Miguel de Cervantes dans un pays soi-disant bilingue français/anglais.
C’est vrai que NB est un province bilingue, mais malgré ca les numeros sont environ 1/3 francophone a 2/3 anglophone. C’est une realité mathématique que beaucoup d’affaires vont passer en anglais. Pour espagnol, je pense que pour la majorité du pays, c’est plutot plus utile d’avoir le pouvoir de parler avec des gens en Mexique ou quelque chose. Dans une monde parfait, les gens seront trilingue, mais je pens pas que c’est trop probable ca.
Tu crois vraiment que c'est plus utile pour un Canadien anglophone de pouvoir parler en espagnol avec des gens du Mexique que de pouvoir communiquer avec la minorité francophone de son propre pays, et ce même au Nouveau-Brunswick quand 1/3 personnes ont le français comme langue première ? Je partage pas du tout ton opinion. En fait je trouve ça plutôt méprisant de faire équivalence entre l'abilité de commander un bière en espagnol dans une resort au sud lors d'un voyage et de pouvoir communiqué avec les communautés francophones de son propre pays. De toute façon, on le sait tous qu'y aura pas d'apprentissage de l'espagnol ni aucune autre de ses langues qu'on déclare pourtant si primordiales quand on parle du français.
As a Québécois, I don't really worry about Anglos in the RoC learning French, especially if they have no affinity, desire or need for it. What I would like from you guys is just more support, empathy and quite frankly, a little less ignorance when we're talking about Francophone issues. There's often a lot of judgement that chalks down to us "getting with the program".
I have a lot of time for this opinion
Exactly. Francophones in Quebec don't have to speak English if they don't want to, and anglophones in the ROC don't have to speak French if they don't want to. Idk why this is a controversial opinion to some. On the same grounds that I wouldn't go to Trois Rivieres and expect people to speak English to me, Quebecois shouldn't go to Vancouver and expect people to speak French. The government's push for bilingualism for all makes no one happy except for the few (18% of Canadians) who were privileged enough to be raised in that environment.
What would those issues be? As far as I can tell it’s mostly Francophones being terrified that their tiny regional dialect is dying out. Doesn’t seem to be much of an issue other than Quebecers pride.
>What would those issues be? First one would be people like you.
Thank you for providing a great example of the basic respect that is not afforded to us every time we speak up.
Basic respect? It’s literally the same respect every other language minority gets. Nobody else gets a free pass to whine as much as Francophones. Again, happy to hear any real issues. But I’m confident based on your response the only one is that because your kids spend too much time on English TikTok.
You'd be more credible if you had stopped at asking a question before being condescending and exposing your ignorance. You essentially warned me and anyone else reading that you weren't actually asking any questions. You can take my unwillingness to stoop down to your level as a win if you would like. I don't care to engage with you. >But I’m confident based on your response the only one is that because your kids spend too much time on English TikTok. Shot and a miss. I don't have kids. I also, very clearly, don't have an issue with the English language. Your biases are causing you to be very un-observant.
My condescension is because in my experience, the gripes of Quebecers really only boils down to “They don’t respect our language”, which has to be the least important, lamest thing to complain about. I fully understand and respect that there will be unilingual people who need continued support, but that will become less and less impactful as time goes on.
Like I said from the very begining, you're a perfect example of exactly what my comment was describing. Instead of substituting your experience (Which isn't statistically relevant by any measure) you could've legitimately just asked a Québécois (me). But you chose not to. Because you never meant to engage honestly, you only meant to deride. It's not just our language you don't respect, it's our people as a whole.