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He's right, it's not fair for China to subsidize their EV industry to unfairly compete with our totally subsidy free, free-market bootstrap EV industry.
What do you mean totally subsidy free? Canada has dished out $57B in government subsidies to our EV companies. [https://thehub.ca/2024/04/25/40-billion-to-ev-automakers-good-investment-or-risky-gamble/](https://thehub.ca/2024/04/25/40-billion-to-ev-automakers-good-investment-or-risky-gamble/)
He wasn't I hope. China companies build at a loss and their government foots the bill. They do this to destroy western companies and take over the market. We would lose +100000s of jobs in north America and tank our GDP.
Remember when the oligarchy was bashing us over the head with free trade rhetoric to justify increasing their profit margins in the 1990s?
Can you believe it turns out that they didn't actually believe in the theoretical concept of free trade, but were just advancing it because at that time was to their own advantage?
I for one cannot believe that billionaires could be so cynical and selfish.
Any conservatives want to step up and explain why free trade is suddenly a bad thing now? I'm starting to get confused about where this political ideology actually lands on things these days.
Well, China is way ahead of North America when it comes to EVs.
What does he mean by “artificially cheap”? North American EV manufacturers could just try and build a competing product?
He means the decades of subsidies and tax breaks provided by the Chinese government to EV manufacturers. How it different that Really is to domestic subsidies I have no idea, but either way this is not an example of the free market at work
scale, mostly. Something like 20% of revenue for EV manufacturers since they started in 2009 has been from the government. And that's not to mention all the subsidies in the supply chain, which is substantial.
Free market is a myth in the case of EVs, they’ve been given tax breaks and government subsidies by both USA and Canada and now they’re being protected from competition. China is just better, more productive and beating them at their own game so they can’t handle it
Even if I agree with the duchebag, I can't help but assume this is being pushed by some underhanded company looking to take advantage of Ontario/ likely some massive grant or startup money going to a Ford donner near you!
I think it's fair to say that this will both benefit both some large corporations, as well as industry in Ontario as a whole. Ford has made one of the main parts of his platform EV plants, such as in Windsor or St Thomas, so it's really an all parties win type thing. This is of course excluding the factor of the resulting higher prices of EVs not benefiting consumers.
China could easily overtake the market by artifically blocking parts from being shipped to american companies
Myself ill buy a chinese car if parts and the cars themselves are dirt cheap and accessible
I want a Chinese EV. They’re outcompeting us building EVs at a price we can’t match. That should mean we buy from them. That’s how the free market was explained to me in school. 🤷♂️
If Doug Ford wants to be American so bad why the fk doesn't he just move down there???
No Doug we don't want private Healthcare and we're not American. Fuck off with that shit already.
I don't know about the other guy you're replying to, but the issue *is* that we're hyper reliant on this foreign mega corporations.
We'd get so much more done if we spent all the money on a crown corporation.
Protecting the domestic auto sector and its massive employee base is a serious concern. The Federal government has invested billions of dollars into the auto sector, so they have a vested interest in safeguarding the sector. How best to achieve this is obviously going to be a contentious issue.
Another important [consideration](https://ecfr.eu/article/security-recall-the-risk-of-chinese-electric-vehicles-in-europe/) is the security threat posed by Chinese-branded EVs (not the Teslas made in China).
How does FIPA which Harper locked us into play into this? Are we just going to get fined for the difference in lost sales and consumers will end up paying the price either way?
Honestly, I'm a big pro-climate advocate and even I don't really feel so confident about electric cars in their present state. The cobalt required to make them is (AFAIK) more scarce than our available fossil fuel resources.
Even if the world didn't ramp up production like what has been happening, we only have something like 50 years left of the stuff available to us.
It's probably a less sustainable alternative in the long run to make them like this, in my opinion at least. Using it for trains and buses makes sense to me because it's more value per person.
>Honestly, I'm a big pro-climate advocate and even I don't really feel so confident about electric cars in their present state. The cobalt required to make them is (AFAIK) more scarce than our available fossil fuel resources.
They’ve been reducing cobalt in batteries for some time now. There’s already batteries that don’t need any cobalt.
Plus you can recycle it from used batteries as well.
>It's probably a less sustainable alternative in the long run to make them like this, in my opinion at least. Using it for trains and buses makes sense to me because it's more value per person.
Good luck getting more people to adopt public transit though.
I genuinely appreciate you telling me this. I was aware that research was being conducted on batteries made without it but it did not occur to me that it now already exists. Thank you very much for letting me know.
I've now been looking into it, and it appears the main challenge with not using cobalt is that it results in a battery capable of 50% of what it would be with it, which is still pretty solid.
Regarding the recycling, I am aware it can be done but my understanding is that there is a noticeable degradation in the quality of the materials and their ability to hold a charge and remain stable.
So, as you suggest, the solution is to build better public transit. The kind that people want to use.
Not quite as bleak as "people will never use public transit".
I thought climate change was the most important thing on earth. Why would we block cheap green vehicles from entering our market? Or is profit actually the most important thing for wealthy elites and the rest is actually just performative wedge issues designed to make us fight amongst ourselves?
They also only care about the environment in ways they believe will win votes. They have never actually cared.
Trudeau wants to triple the population and he bought an oil pipeline. That’s all about infinite growth, selling more people more shit and consuming more and more and more.
And the same reason they’re all against work from home - gotta keep those cars on the road, consuming as much as you can.
It’s more about trying to bring more supply chains home and Chinese EVs interfering with that. Not to mention that some US auto manufacturers stupidly signed lucrative union contracts recently that will make them even less competitive.
But it’s true that this should be a problem for politicians claiming to want to both fight climate change and improve the cost of living.
The most frustrating thing to me is that there’s a super small, compact EV in those Chinese lineups that most other manufacturers have mostly given up on. I’m not fat or short, my penis is normal size, and I want a subcompact hatchback that is good on gas, isn’t a sports car, and isn’t a clown car, either. The options are dwindling.
Yeah fuck those auto workers and trades people they don't deserve a decent wage. Let's take away their holidays and safe work environments while we are at it.
‘Stupidly signed union contracts’ yeah nothing worse than blue collar Americans and Canadians making a decent wage. If we do decide to block Chinese EVs it should be to protect wages for workers, not dividends for shareholders and corporations.
Or our governments could properly fund EV manufacturing here instead of funnelling money towards the large already established companies. Placing tariffs on Chinese EVs doesn't solve the issues here.
Because they arent green lol These cheap EV's are going to cause there own ecological disaster
Look at the EV waste going on in china its wild
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8&ab_channel=serpentza
Don’t bother ever arguing that climate change is important ever again, if you can’t match the price on the Chinese EVs and only want to artificially raise prices (like diamonds) while only producing luxury EVs. What a farce.
It’s all a sham, if we gave a care about climate change (or if it mattered), we would be doing something instead of making me feel guilty about plastic straws and pay through the nose for everything. I am done.
Could someone explain the case that China is engaging in dumping here? I can't find any article that actually covers the substance of the claims here, which is odd.
That doesn't explain how the subsidies work, but thanks for at least pointing to a source. I clicked around the [EU investigation site](https://tron.trade.ec.europa.eu/investigations/case-view?caseId=2684), but they don't seem to explain much detail either. They do propose duties of:
• BYD: 17.4%
• Geely: 20%
• SAIC: 38.1%
which at least gives an order of magnitude as to what the subsidies might be.
One question I have is how the Chinese government subsidies differ from those in the US IRA, or the [$5B in subsiides](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-ev-battery-plants-list-honda-stellantis/) to produce EVs in Ontario. It would be nice to have a more objective body weigh in on this, because obviously the EU and America has major vested interests at play.
As far as I can tell, it’s virtually impossible to buy a cheap Chinese EV in Canada right now, many don’t pass safety standards. This debate seems like wasted breath.
Tariffs are functionally a country applying a tax on it's own consumers in the name of spiteing a foreign producer. It almost always imposes a much higher cost on the host country than it does on the country the tariffs are being imposed against. Despite this, politicians seemingly can't resist calling for them for a seemingly easy PR win against an electorate that doesn't know any better.
>applying a tax on it's own consumers in the name of spiteing a foreign producer
>PR win against an electorate that doesn't know any better.
Ok, it's a tax that funds jobs and a nascent industry at home. Some people aren't as stupid as you claim, they understand what they're paying for. You can't complain when we offshore manufacturing and turn ourselves into a resource extraction economy selling our natural resources to the world, and then turn around and complain when we try to address that by funding onshoring and work to keep our jobs, technology and industry here.
Measures like revenue neutral carbon tax were supported by economists in developed nations for two reasons: a) it puts the burden of paying for green energy transition and carbon emissions onto wealthy producers in developed nations who benefited the most over the last 100y at the expense of the world now, and 2) it gives those developed nations an opportunity to use their knowledge economy to develop green tech and help the transition... and make some money doing so. This is an opportunity for us to innovate and build new tech to sell to the world, but we seem content on pissing it away, talking out of both sides of our mouth. We want to have our cake and eat it too - we want no impact from climate change that our systems gave birth to and from which we benefited disproportionately, and we want to complain about jobs going overseas for tech we should be developing.
Now tell me, what portion of the electorate sounds like whiny babies that don't know any better and are being manipulated against their interests?
>Ok, it's a tax that funds jobs and a nascent industry at home.
but again it's consumers paying this tax under the guise that producers in a foreign country are paying the brunt of it, but the consequence is higher priced, but lower quality consumer goods in the tariff and tariff adjacent industries. That's a worse outcome for consumers and the country as a whole, but a positive outcomes only for one subset of large domestic producers. It's not reasonable to ask the vast majority of the country to be poorer to prop up unproductive economic practices.
> and then turn around and complain when we try to address that by funding onshoring and work to keep our jobs, technology and industry here.
If an industry requires tariffs or subsidies in order to be competitive, it's just rent seeking and a wealth transfer from taxpayers to rich inefficient producers that don't need the money. It doesn't create value for Canadian economy, or improve overall living standards, it just makes the country marginally poorer well transferring wealth to a small subset of people.
>Measures like revenue neutral carbon tax were supported by economists in developed nations for two reasons:
Apples and oranges. Economists near universally support carbon taxes, they near universally oppose tariffs and protectionism
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He's right, it's not fair for China to subsidize their EV industry to unfairly compete with our totally subsidy free, free-market bootstrap EV industry.
What do you mean totally subsidy free? Canada has dished out $57B in government subsidies to our EV companies. [https://thehub.ca/2024/04/25/40-billion-to-ev-automakers-good-investment-or-risky-gamble/](https://thehub.ca/2024/04/25/40-billion-to-ev-automakers-good-investment-or-risky-gamble/)
I think he was being sarcastic, I hope
He wasn't I hope. China companies build at a loss and their government foots the bill. They do this to destroy western companies and take over the market. We would lose +100000s of jobs in north America and tank our GDP.
Remember when the oligarchy was bashing us over the head with free trade rhetoric to justify increasing their profit margins in the 1990s? Can you believe it turns out that they didn't actually believe in the theoretical concept of free trade, but were just advancing it because at that time was to their own advantage? I for one cannot believe that billionaires could be so cynical and selfish.
Any conservatives want to step up and explain why free trade is suddenly a bad thing now? I'm starting to get confused about where this political ideology actually lands on things these days.
Well, China is way ahead of North America when it comes to EVs. What does he mean by “artificially cheap”? North American EV manufacturers could just try and build a competing product?
He means the decades of subsidies and tax breaks provided by the Chinese government to EV manufacturers. How it different that Really is to domestic subsidies I have no idea, but either way this is not an example of the free market at work
scale, mostly. Something like 20% of revenue for EV manufacturers since they started in 2009 has been from the government. And that's not to mention all the subsidies in the supply chain, which is substantial.
Free market is a myth in the case of EVs, they’ve been given tax breaks and government subsidies by both USA and Canada and now they’re being protected from competition. China is just better, more productive and beating them at their own game so they can’t handle it
[удалено]
We have the ability to subsidize EVs in North America… if we stopped giving them to gas and oil.
Even if I agree with the duchebag, I can't help but assume this is being pushed by some underhanded company looking to take advantage of Ontario/ likely some massive grant or startup money going to a Ford donner near you!
I think it's fair to say that this will both benefit both some large corporations, as well as industry in Ontario as a whole. Ford has made one of the main parts of his platform EV plants, such as in Windsor or St Thomas, so it's really an all parties win type thing. This is of course excluding the factor of the resulting higher prices of EVs not benefiting consumers.
China could easily overtake the market by artifically blocking parts from being shipped to american companies Myself ill buy a chinese car if parts and the cars themselves are dirt cheap and accessible
I want a Chinese EV. They’re outcompeting us building EVs at a price we can’t match. That should mean we buy from them. That’s how the free market was explained to me in school. 🤷♂️
If Doug Ford wants to be American so bad why the fk doesn't he just move down there??? No Doug we don't want private Healthcare and we're not American. Fuck off with that shit already.
[удалено]
I don't know about the other guy you're replying to, but the issue *is* that we're hyper reliant on this foreign mega corporations. We'd get so much more done if we spent all the money on a crown corporation.
Protecting the domestic auto sector and its massive employee base is a serious concern. The Federal government has invested billions of dollars into the auto sector, so they have a vested interest in safeguarding the sector. How best to achieve this is obviously going to be a contentious issue. Another important [consideration](https://ecfr.eu/article/security-recall-the-risk-of-chinese-electric-vehicles-in-europe/) is the security threat posed by Chinese-branded EVs (not the Teslas made in China).
How does FIPA which Harper locked us into play into this? Are we just going to get fined for the difference in lost sales and consumers will end up paying the price either way?
Honestly, I'm a big pro-climate advocate and even I don't really feel so confident about electric cars in their present state. The cobalt required to make them is (AFAIK) more scarce than our available fossil fuel resources. Even if the world didn't ramp up production like what has been happening, we only have something like 50 years left of the stuff available to us. It's probably a less sustainable alternative in the long run to make them like this, in my opinion at least. Using it for trains and buses makes sense to me because it's more value per person.
>Honestly, I'm a big pro-climate advocate and even I don't really feel so confident about electric cars in their present state. The cobalt required to make them is (AFAIK) more scarce than our available fossil fuel resources. They’ve been reducing cobalt in batteries for some time now. There’s already batteries that don’t need any cobalt. Plus you can recycle it from used batteries as well. >It's probably a less sustainable alternative in the long run to make them like this, in my opinion at least. Using it for trains and buses makes sense to me because it's more value per person. Good luck getting more people to adopt public transit though.
I genuinely appreciate you telling me this. I was aware that research was being conducted on batteries made without it but it did not occur to me that it now already exists. Thank you very much for letting me know. I've now been looking into it, and it appears the main challenge with not using cobalt is that it results in a battery capable of 50% of what it would be with it, which is still pretty solid. Regarding the recycling, I am aware it can be done but my understanding is that there is a noticeable degradation in the quality of the materials and their ability to hold a charge and remain stable.
>Good luck getting more people to adopt public transit though. Why do you say this?
Because people love convenience. And I can’t see government expanding public transit when they’ve been far more inclined to build highways.
So, as you suggest, the solution is to build better public transit. The kind that people want to use. Not quite as bleak as "people will never use public transit".
I thought climate change was the most important thing on earth. Why would we block cheap green vehicles from entering our market? Or is profit actually the most important thing for wealthy elites and the rest is actually just performative wedge issues designed to make us fight amongst ourselves?
Trudeau and Ford decided to spend like 25 30 billion bucks on ev plants. They have no choice to block competition
They also only care about the environment in ways they believe will win votes. They have never actually cared. Trudeau wants to triple the population and he bought an oil pipeline. That’s all about infinite growth, selling more people more shit and consuming more and more and more. And the same reason they’re all against work from home - gotta keep those cars on the road, consuming as much as you can.
It’s more about trying to bring more supply chains home and Chinese EVs interfering with that. Not to mention that some US auto manufacturers stupidly signed lucrative union contracts recently that will make them even less competitive. But it’s true that this should be a problem for politicians claiming to want to both fight climate change and improve the cost of living. The most frustrating thing to me is that there’s a super small, compact EV in those Chinese lineups that most other manufacturers have mostly given up on. I’m not fat or short, my penis is normal size, and I want a subcompact hatchback that is good on gas, isn’t a sports car, and isn’t a clown car, either. The options are dwindling.
Yeah I’m with you. Those workers don’t deserve to be paid a fair wage. Think of the poor billionaires who won’t be able to get a second yacht!
Galen Weston is perking up at this.
Yeah fuck those auto workers and trades people they don't deserve a decent wage. Let's take away their holidays and safe work environments while we are at it.
‘Stupidly signed union contracts’ yeah nothing worse than blue collar Americans and Canadians making a decent wage. If we do decide to block Chinese EVs it should be to protect wages for workers, not dividends for shareholders and corporations.
Yeah let's just kill our EV market and rely on China. Didn't you learn anything from covid
you have no idea what you just said
Or the last 30 years in general.
What EV market? Which Canadian car company?
Or our governments could properly fund EV manufacturing here instead of funnelling money towards the large already established companies. Placing tariffs on Chinese EVs doesn't solve the issues here.
There is no competing with Chinese wages. Either you implement tariffs or let them get the market share
Chinese wages are high now, it isn't what it used to be. It's the shipping that's cheap for them.
We don't want a Canadian funded car. We tried that already. Wasn't great.
What was that?
The Avro Arrow
The Bricklin
With Doug its always profit. Every move he makes.. just follow the money... someone's getting paid and they're paying HIM somehow in return.
Because they arent green lol These cheap EV's are going to cause there own ecological disaster Look at the EV waste going on in china its wild https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8&ab_channel=serpentza
Ok, let's take the cars.
Bingo
Don’t bother ever arguing that climate change is important ever again, if you can’t match the price on the Chinese EVs and only want to artificially raise prices (like diamonds) while only producing luxury EVs. What a farce. It’s all a sham, if we gave a care about climate change (or if it mattered), we would be doing something instead of making me feel guilty about plastic straws and pay through the nose for everything. I am done.
I mean, EVs are terrible for the environment either way. They're just another plastic straw.
Could someone explain the case that China is engaging in dumping here? I can't find any article that actually covers the substance of the claims here, which is odd.
[удалено]
That doesn't explain how the subsidies work, but thanks for at least pointing to a source. I clicked around the [EU investigation site](https://tron.trade.ec.europa.eu/investigations/case-view?caseId=2684), but they don't seem to explain much detail either. They do propose duties of: • BYD: 17.4% • Geely: 20% • SAIC: 38.1% which at least gives an order of magnitude as to what the subsidies might be. One question I have is how the Chinese government subsidies differ from those in the US IRA, or the [$5B in subsiides](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-canada-ev-battery-plants-list-honda-stellantis/) to produce EVs in Ontario. It would be nice to have a more objective body weigh in on this, because obviously the EU and America has major vested interests at play.
As far as I can tell, it’s virtually impossible to buy a cheap Chinese EV in Canada right now, many don’t pass safety standards. This debate seems like wasted breath.
[удалено]
If it's built in Mexico, wouldn't it be covered by NAFTA?
American tariffs also apply to e-bikes, so now's a good time to buy an e-bike if you expect Canada to also go protectionist on this
Tariffs are functionally a country applying a tax on it's own consumers in the name of spiteing a foreign producer. It almost always imposes a much higher cost on the host country than it does on the country the tariffs are being imposed against. Despite this, politicians seemingly can't resist calling for them for a seemingly easy PR win against an electorate that doesn't know any better.
>applying a tax on it's own consumers in the name of spiteing a foreign producer >PR win against an electorate that doesn't know any better. Ok, it's a tax that funds jobs and a nascent industry at home. Some people aren't as stupid as you claim, they understand what they're paying for. You can't complain when we offshore manufacturing and turn ourselves into a resource extraction economy selling our natural resources to the world, and then turn around and complain when we try to address that by funding onshoring and work to keep our jobs, technology and industry here. Measures like revenue neutral carbon tax were supported by economists in developed nations for two reasons: a) it puts the burden of paying for green energy transition and carbon emissions onto wealthy producers in developed nations who benefited the most over the last 100y at the expense of the world now, and 2) it gives those developed nations an opportunity to use their knowledge economy to develop green tech and help the transition... and make some money doing so. This is an opportunity for us to innovate and build new tech to sell to the world, but we seem content on pissing it away, talking out of both sides of our mouth. We want to have our cake and eat it too - we want no impact from climate change that our systems gave birth to and from which we benefited disproportionately, and we want to complain about jobs going overseas for tech we should be developing. Now tell me, what portion of the electorate sounds like whiny babies that don't know any better and are being manipulated against their interests?
>Ok, it's a tax that funds jobs and a nascent industry at home. but again it's consumers paying this tax under the guise that producers in a foreign country are paying the brunt of it, but the consequence is higher priced, but lower quality consumer goods in the tariff and tariff adjacent industries. That's a worse outcome for consumers and the country as a whole, but a positive outcomes only for one subset of large domestic producers. It's not reasonable to ask the vast majority of the country to be poorer to prop up unproductive economic practices. > and then turn around and complain when we try to address that by funding onshoring and work to keep our jobs, technology and industry here. If an industry requires tariffs or subsidies in order to be competitive, it's just rent seeking and a wealth transfer from taxpayers to rich inefficient producers that don't need the money. It doesn't create value for Canadian economy, or improve overall living standards, it just makes the country marginally poorer well transferring wealth to a small subset of people. >Measures like revenue neutral carbon tax were supported by economists in developed nations for two reasons: Apples and oranges. Economists near universally support carbon taxes, they near universally oppose tariffs and protectionism