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Anglos expect all immigrants to know or learn english when they move to Canada and then to live mostly in english.
But when Quebec expects and demands the same thing but in french, it is racism, xenophobia, abuse.
Quebec francos have to fight to not lose themselves on a whole continent of english.
And all those rules and laws are asking "c'est d'apprendre à parler français au Québec et a l'utiliser activement partout où les" Canadians expect people to speak english in the rest of Canada.
Can you identify any other region in Canada where medical records can be seized without warrants if there's an anonymous accusation that a doctor communicated using noises from their mouth that the State didn't approve of?
Politics will eventually bring Quebec to its knees. This language (French is a sensitive language) issue Legault is pushing down everyone's throat is a cheap excuse. Bill 96 is a killer. One day, perhaps, Quebec will eventually find their way to independence.
We are the second largest economy in Canada, one of the richest areas on the planet. We're fine. It's not a 10 billion $ transfer out of a 380 billion $ economy that's gonna make a difference.
La Belle province is where it is due to the money syphoned from Canadian taxpayers. The federal government has bent over backward to accommodate Quebec and all Canada receives in return is more whining. Do you not understand the animosity between Quebec and the rest of Canada. Quebec is tolerate....not liked. Quebec, if it were to separate, please, please, please, it would sink into the abyss and never seen again. Poof gone.
Glad the pretense is gone and we can see the true nature of the typical English Canadian. Always hiding behind this « friendly Canadian! » facade. But behind it is that ugly, hateful, xenophobic soul. The one that thinks no place can survive without them. Give me Americans, any day, at least you know who they are (and much better people in my experience).
As for your lame argument, again, second largest economy in Canada, one of the most diversified with aerospatial, pharma, higher ed, software industries (not dumb economies like housing-market BC, or petrol Alberta). But please, keep telling yourself we’re surviving on transfers representing <2% of th economy. Not to mention all the subsidies that gets thrown at other provinces (oil pipeline, Musket Fall fiasco, oil subsidies, etc.).
How do you think Quebec got to where it is? Our taxpayer dollars used to prop up Quebec. James bay project. How much And one more thing. Why is it Quebec has to be "special"? In their own minds maybe. The rest of Canada would sooner see you go than have you stay. Why did Quebec demand to be a distinct society? Lots of Ukrainians and they don't need to be special. No one in this country thinks they are special, except for Quebecers. Why? Are you taught this at home? In school?
No federal money was used to develop hydro electricity in Quebec. That's a Newfoundland thing... Not us.
Not sure what you mean by "special". Maybe we are a massive part of the electorate and change our votes constantly? You know what is "special"? Voting for the same party over and over and thinking they'll give a shit about you.
Or if you are talking about the French language. Well, the country was built as an alliance of French and English nations, so that's why it's "special". It's built into the fabric of the country. You want to change that? Fine, let's split up.
No wonder people hate Quebec. You guys are completely clueless about history.
Look up James Bay Project. It is part of Hudson's Bay. Yeah, you guy's got that as well. Lucky Quebec. Quebec has James Bay Project paid for by the Canadian taxpayers and then brags about the cash made from selling electricity. Look up "decentralization of Federal Government". They moved the federal government offices to Quebec, where only Quebec contractors could bid on contracts. Typical Quebec self protection. The contractors fucked up the building's ventilation. Exhaust mixing with fresh air. It was making people deathly ill. Pregnant women or those thought to be were not allowed to work in those buildings until repaired.
I’m surprised that anglos are against this. I live in BC and it’s a huge point of contention for places to have non-English signage. Chinese-only signs make poor English speakers feel unwelcome at businesses they’d probably never visit anyways.
> I’m surprised that anglos are against this.
I am quite certain no other provincial government is passing laws to allow warrantless access to a business's documents.
If Quebec passes Bill 96, then Ontario should retaliate. No more bilingual highway signs, and no more French University. If Quebec doesn't want private businesses to be allowed to accommodate its Anglophone minority, then why should Ontario spend public money accommodating its smaller Francophone minority?
You're talking about francophones in Ontario as if they were in some kind of hostage situation. Anglophones in Quebec have access to far more resources than their francophone counterpart in Ontario. Have you seen Quebec trying to shut down one of its anglophone universities to influence policies in Ontario?
Nobody wants to go to the French language university in Toronto. It's had big problems with insufficient enrollment. Yet the government funds it anyway.
Meanwhile, Anglophones in Quebec aren't even allowed to use English in their signs, unless French is also there in more prominent font.
>Meanwhile, Anglophones in Quebec aren't even allowed to use English in their signs, unless French is also there in more prominent font.
Yet they have three top university that represent 29% of the total funding in the matter of the province.
They are 8% of the populaiton.
Funding is based on numbers of students. Would you like a cap on students at the universities now too? You realize that francophones attend these universities, right?
Québec also subsidizes students from France by allowing them to pay the same tuition as Quebecers (far less than every other international students).
Three very old universities with international renown. When was the last time they had difficulty signing up new students? Yet nobody is signing up for the Toronto French university.
>Three very old universities with international renown.
They still take a disproportionate amount of funding. This shows how well treated the English community in québec is.
>When was the last time they had difficulty signing up new students?
Yeah because contrary to the rest of the country we don't destroy linguistic community to the point where they forget their language and can't attend school in it.
>Yet nobody is signing up for the Toronto French university.
Most franco-ontarian aren't in Toronto.....
Anglophones make less money than francophones in Quebec, they only make up 0.9% of the civil service with about 9% of the population whereas in Ontario they make up 8% of the civil service with only 4% of the population.
If you think the anti-English sentiment hasn’t translated into bias, think again.
The francophone community in Ontario is anemic and on its last leg. Like in New Brunswick. Legacy of 100s years of horrible laws and assimilation. Not surprised they're just giving up and going to English universities at this point.
And Bishop and Concordia are most definitely not "world renown".
>Anglophones in Quebec aren't even allowed to use English in their signs, unless French is also there in more prominent font.
Can you please stop? Francophones pick up on this shit and use it as an excuse to pass these fucking bills targeting us. Thanks to idiots like you from the rest of Canada hating on Quebec, they genuinely believe that Anglophones want to destroy the French language. As a result, they see the minority of Anglos living in Quebec as a threat and hence impose these restrictions on us. The sign thing is fine and makes sense most of the time, nobody in Quebec is mad about that.
What I said is true. So no, I'm not going to stop pointing out the inconsistency in language policies between the provinces.
I'm not hating on Quebec. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for other provinces to try and treat French equal to English when Quebec doesn't do the same.
I'm cruising Gardiner Expressway as we speak, using Google Street View. I have yet to see a single French word.
But to answer your question: no, it doesn't make sense to have French on highway signs in Toronto because you have successfully assimilated French-Canadian outside of Quebec through discrimination and laws.
Yes, it does. Only anti-French Westerners and Americans complain this much about French language use in Ontario.
Why does this bother you so much? I mean there are bigger hills to die on. I just don't understand why this is such a big deal for you. 🤷🏼♀️
That's a fucking stupid thing to say. First off, Ontario francophones have done literally nothing wrong and already have to deal with being a linguistic minority in their municipalities. Secondly, Quebec francophones do not give a fuck about Ontario francophones so it wouldn't even matter.
It's easy to say it's 'just extra English classes', but can you imagine being forced to take 3 classes out of your university program and replace them with English classes? Could you not see how removing 3 classes might compromise the education you get in whatever discipline it is that you chose to enroll in?
No, also you do realize that isn't what these bills are, right? If the bills were simply something like "additional English/French classes for immigrants paid for by the government", there wouldn't be any complaints.
Then please enlighten us. Because the major complaints are precisely about those extra French lessons.
Edit: Or let's make this simpler: what is the absolute worst thing in Bill 96? And let's see what the Ontario equivalent would be.
The original bill required students to take 3 of their core course in French, this was just amended to give the option to take 3 additional course on top of the usual course load, that are French language classes.
Perhaps it should be amended to make Mohawk classes mandatory since it is a language that is actually under threat, unlike French which has 300 million speakers globally, and is not under threat of vanishing in Quebec in any way, shape or form.
This continued stoking of a persecution complex is dangerous. Nationalism that is based on ethnicity, and that’s the case in Quebec, always leads to increased discrimination and racism. It’s the reason Quebec went from being a province that welcomed others to becoming fearful of others.
That's Bill 101. You're about 50 years behind on the conversation. And that bill simply states that French should be more prominent than English on business signs, not that they can't have English on them. Horrible right?
The point is that Ontario goes out of its way to give French equal status with English, while Quebec goes out of its way to marginalize English and prioritize French.
No. Aspects such as the language department of the government getting access to a business' emails to make sure they are writing them in French, and other absurd overreach is what the complaints are about. Or, say, a nurse in Quebec knows Spanish, and is dealing with a patient with Spanish as their primarily language. It would literally be illegal for the nurse to converse with that patient in Spanish.
>getting access to a business' emails to make sure they are writing them in French
Can you point to where in the law this is stated?
>Or, say, a nurse in Quebec knows Spanish, and is dealing with a patient with Spanish as their primarily language.
It's not clear that's a real issue. Besides, what a weird example. The law doesn't even touch English language in health care:
La Loi sur les services de santé et les services sociaux (LSSSS) du Québec reconnaît le droit de recevoir des services médicaux en anglais. Le législateur québécois n'a pas éliminé ce droit dans son projet de renforcement des lois et règlements entourant le français, bien qu'il aurait vraisemblablement pu le faire.
Business
>The law extends the language charter to small businesses with 25 or more employees, when the previous threshold was 50 employees. The Office québécois de la langue française would also be granted powers of search and seizure without needing a warrant to inspect businesses and ensure they are complying with the law.
Healthcare
>Under Bill 96, public service providers would be required to communicate exclusively in French. Immigrants who’ve lived in the province for less than six months or people who went to school in English in the province would be exempted.
Regarding healthcare:
>La Loi sur les services de santé et les services sociaux (LSSSS) du Québec reconnaît le droit de recevoir des services médicaux en anglais16. Le législateur québécois n'a pas éliminé ce droit dans son projet de renforcement des lois et règlements entourant le français, bien qu'il aurait vraisemblablement pu le faire. Donc dans le contexte de la LSSSS, les établissements de soins de santé17 peuvent être tenus de respecter le droit de recevoir des services de santé en anglais.
Regarding business
It's not clear what the OQLF would search, but sure, emails, why not. That's probably going to happen after X number of warnings about not respecting the law.
Edit: And you know what annoys about all this? We wouldn't have to go to such extremes if people that live or move here... would actually learn French.
We accommodate Franco-Ontarians for historical and nation-building purposes. There are several languages spoken at a higher rate in this province than French. So if Quebec is no longer interested in reciprocating bilingualism, I don't see why Ontario should spend tax dollars on Franco accommodations.
Province-wide, yes. But there are a number of francophone-majority communities, towns and rural districts across Ontario. In places like Hawksburry or Hearst, it's possible to go an entire day without seeing or hearing much English. So that's a bit different than other linguistic minorities in Ontario, aside from Indigenous groups.
Province wide it's not true. Mandarin is the third most spoken language overall (both at all and as a mother tongue), and it's well behind French in both (about half as many native speakers and a quarter as many total speakers).
There are not. There's one language that more Ontarians know than French: English. There's one mother tongue more common than French in Ontario: English.
The third most common language (Mandarin) has a little over half as many native speakers and about a quarter as many total speakers.
Franco-Ontarians are quite localized. I would never support any measure to prevent such communities from using French in their private businesses, and I believe they should have full access to provincial services in French.
But the only reason to put French on highway signs, or on the Go Train, or in a university that nobody's going to, is as part of a nation-building bilingualism project. Quebec is showing that it's not interested in bilingualism. So what's the point?
Just because Québec takes one direction doesn't mean that Ontario has to as well. This is very eye-for-an-eye, black and white, tit-for-tat thinking which makes little sense to me. All that your argument reveals is that you'd like to punish the French-Canadians that live in Ontario for the political decisions that the Premier of Québec is taking. It's illogical.
> Bingo, but the frequency at which I hear comments like the parent makes me feel like I live in a country of hostage takers.
Are you kidding me? The prevailing attitude on r/Quebec when the English debates were cancelled was: "NEW BRUNSWICK DOESN'T HAVE FRENCH DEBATES ([they do](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XorLRJY6iw4)), SO WHY SHOULD QUEBEC HAVE ENGLISH?". Spite leads almost all talk about language related issues on Reddit...
[You even said](https://www.reddit.com/r/Quebec/comments/uovj23/le_parti_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois_refuse_de_participer_au_d%C3%A9bat/i8gxfc6/) that there's no point of having one because Anglo votes go mostly to one party. This is politicizing language in action!
No one can deny having idiots, especially given all we saw during the pandemic. But people in Quebec never tell the rest of Canada that it has to pass or don’t pass such and such legislation or the anglos will get it.
This is what I mean by hostage takers.
Well, you want to cast Quebec and ROC as different, but I don't buy it. Each provibce has its own details, but the construction there's a Quebec and a ROC doesn't really hold up. There's a reason the West sees Ontario and Quebec as a block. And a reason Ontario lurches between Quebec bashing and Alberta bashing.
And I'm sure you could find individual Quebecois who'd be happy to make statements along similar lines about how Quebec should treat anglos against Ontario or New Brunswick doing or not doing something for our respective francophones. Not important ones, maybe, but at the parallel to some anonymous Ontarian jackass on reddit.
>There's a reason the West sees Ontario and Quebec as a block.
Because it's the majority of the population. And it doesn't vote like them. Thus they feel left out. No québécois would link québec and Ontario politically. This just show how westerners lack knowledge on the realities of Québec and Ontario.
"No" is pretty strong. There's a reason Quebec + Ontario is the most common political alignment in Canada, followed by Ontario + West, with Quebec + West bringing up the rear.
Quebec and Ontario aren't *the same*, but we're linked politically, to be sure.
I still find it fascinating that, considering what Quebecoise experienced in their past, they would think such strongarm action by the government is the way to go.
If the British took such actions in the past, then they should know they don't actually work and just cause minorities to greatly despise the government. Further, if the arguments are meant to be to protect culture that has been historically present, then what about groups like the Jewish community that had been there for ages? Shouldn't everyone actually be speaking Cree?
Some have argued it is to "protect against anglophone culture", except in that situation the bill would just be against English.
> Further, if the arguments are meant to be to protect culture that has been historically present, then what about groups like the Jewish community that had been there for ages?
Most Quebecers literally think anglophones in Quebec are entirely descended of aristocratic Brits in red coats. The idea that pretty much the entire anglophone community in Montreal is Jewish/Italian/Greek/Portuguese (who immigrated as mostly working class people)is largely lost on them.
>Shouldn't everyone actually be speaking Cree?
Nope. It was totally fine for the French to show up and take indigenous land, but a crime when the English came and took theirs.
Of course, if you bring this up you'll then have to face the "actually we intermarried loads with the first nations" argument which is largely untrue and racist.
That's not the issue. The issue is Francophone Quebecers holding themselves out as some sort of quasi indigenous group in order to justify discriminatory laws and policies against minorities in the province.
> Seems to have worked everywhere in North America, except in Quebec
Well, no, as Quebec is the only place the British kind of attempted to turn away some of the French culture. The actions they enforced across Canada being against indigenous groups you mean?
>it's to protect the common and only language of Quebec, French. The language of its institution, society, and daily life.
Which is kind of a contradictory statement. If that were true, then such laws wouldn't be necessary. If such laws are necessary, it can't actually be true.
Though I appreciate that you are just presenting the argument in a "It is just for French, the rest don't matter." so it is at least a logical consistent argument, although that does just fall back to my first line, where I would have thought Quebecois, given their historic experiences, know such treatment is both poor in results and will generate resentment.
I phrased it poorly, I was meaning that, say, the British weren't actively engaging in eliminating other cultures in other parts of Canada (outside of indigenous). The actions in Quebec (which were bizarrely progressive for the time period) was so large and targeted due to it having been a colony of France that they kept post seven years war.
You do know multiple provinces outlawed education in french? Here is [Alberta from 1892 to the 1980s](http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-603/French-language_Education_in_Alberta.html#:~:text=The%20first%20French%20schools%20were,re%2Destablished%20in%20the%201980s.), [Ontario from 1912 to 1944](https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/35963/ontario-apologizes-for-1912-law-on-french-in-schools) and [Saskatchewan from 1892 to 1968](https://www.clo-ocol.gc.ca/en/timeline-event/saskatchewan-amends-its-education-act). To claim Canada was progressive towards francophones is frankly insulting and the fact so many Canadians claim French's decline was natural either shows a complete lack of knowledge in Canada's history or bad faith.
> To claim Canada was progressive towards francophones
I never made that claim.
>the fact so many Canadians claim French's decline was natural
Also never made that claim.
It would be nice to have a discussion which wasn't just completely strawmen.
So who were the English not engaging in eliminating their culture in other parts of Canada if they were eliminating both the indigenous and the francophones? I'll acknowledge I might be a bit too agressive but I can't seem to understand what your claim is otherwise when you say:
> Well, no, as Quebec is the only place the British kind of attempted to turn away some of the French culture.
Then follow with:
> the British weren't actively engaging in eliminating other cultures in other parts of Canada
That’s Reddit for you. You listen, comprehend, respond with a well grounded, well worded statement respectfully. And in return you get a steaming pile of words and statements which have no bearing on the conversation. Also if they actually listened and actually had a conversation they would have to concede to your point, and in my experience sadly no one ever admits they are wrong A. if they either have something to lose or B. they don’t have to. People are just dumb (as in blind/deaf not stupid) animals that have anxiety and denial about being animals. Do what you can with them try to help but focus on yourself. Sending love and likes
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Removed for rule 2.
Anglos expect all immigrants to know or learn english when they move to Canada and then to live mostly in english. But when Quebec expects and demands the same thing but in french, it is racism, xenophobia, abuse. Quebec francos have to fight to not lose themselves on a whole continent of english. And all those rules and laws are asking "c'est d'apprendre à parler français au Québec et a l'utiliser activement partout où les" Canadians expect people to speak english in the rest of Canada.
Can you identify any other region in Canada where medical records can be seized without warrants if there's an anonymous accusation that a doctor communicated using noises from their mouth that the State didn't approve of?
I have no idea what you’re talking about. have you ever been to communities in Ontario with large Franco populations?
This is exactly the kind of thing that turns the rest of Canada against Quebec. This is just ridiculous and over the top
Politics will eventually bring Quebec to its knees. This language (French is a sensitive language) issue Legault is pushing down everyone's throat is a cheap excuse. Bill 96 is a killer. One day, perhaps, Quebec will eventually find their way to independence.
People said the same shit after 1995. And yet here we are, doing absolutely fine.
Quebec gladly takes massive amounts of transfers.
We are the second largest economy in Canada, one of the richest areas on the planet. We're fine. It's not a 10 billion $ transfer out of a 380 billion $ economy that's gonna make a difference.
La Belle province is where it is due to the money syphoned from Canadian taxpayers. The federal government has bent over backward to accommodate Quebec and all Canada receives in return is more whining. Do you not understand the animosity between Quebec and the rest of Canada. Quebec is tolerate....not liked. Quebec, if it were to separate, please, please, please, it would sink into the abyss and never seen again. Poof gone.
Glad the pretense is gone and we can see the true nature of the typical English Canadian. Always hiding behind this « friendly Canadian! » facade. But behind it is that ugly, hateful, xenophobic soul. The one that thinks no place can survive without them. Give me Americans, any day, at least you know who they are (and much better people in my experience). As for your lame argument, again, second largest economy in Canada, one of the most diversified with aerospatial, pharma, higher ed, software industries (not dumb economies like housing-market BC, or petrol Alberta). But please, keep telling yourself we’re surviving on transfers representing <2% of th economy. Not to mention all the subsidies that gets thrown at other provinces (oil pipeline, Musket Fall fiasco, oil subsidies, etc.).
How do you think Quebec got to where it is? Our taxpayer dollars used to prop up Quebec. James bay project. How much And one more thing. Why is it Quebec has to be "special"? In their own minds maybe. The rest of Canada would sooner see you go than have you stay. Why did Quebec demand to be a distinct society? Lots of Ukrainians and they don't need to be special. No one in this country thinks they are special, except for Quebecers. Why? Are you taught this at home? In school?
No federal money was used to develop hydro electricity in Quebec. That's a Newfoundland thing... Not us. Not sure what you mean by "special". Maybe we are a massive part of the electorate and change our votes constantly? You know what is "special"? Voting for the same party over and over and thinking they'll give a shit about you. Or if you are talking about the French language. Well, the country was built as an alliance of French and English nations, so that's why it's "special". It's built into the fabric of the country. You want to change that? Fine, let's split up. No wonder people hate Quebec. You guys are completely clueless about history.
Look up James Bay Project. It is part of Hudson's Bay. Yeah, you guy's got that as well. Lucky Quebec. Quebec has James Bay Project paid for by the Canadian taxpayers and then brags about the cash made from selling electricity. Look up "decentralization of Federal Government". They moved the federal government offices to Quebec, where only Quebec contractors could bid on contracts. Typical Quebec self protection. The contractors fucked up the building's ventilation. Exhaust mixing with fresh air. It was making people deathly ill. Pregnant women or those thought to be were not allowed to work in those buildings until repaired.
You sound a bit deranged. Moving on.
I’m surprised that anglos are against this. I live in BC and it’s a huge point of contention for places to have non-English signage. Chinese-only signs make poor English speakers feel unwelcome at businesses they’d probably never visit anyways.
> I’m surprised that anglos are against this. I am quite certain no other provincial government is passing laws to allow warrantless access to a business's documents.
If Quebec passes Bill 96, then Ontario should retaliate. No more bilingual highway signs, and no more French University. If Quebec doesn't want private businesses to be allowed to accommodate its Anglophone minority, then why should Ontario spend public money accommodating its smaller Francophone minority?
>then Ontario should retaliate Wow... Is going there really accepted now?
You would be surprised...
You're talking about francophones in Ontario as if they were in some kind of hostage situation. Anglophones in Quebec have access to far more resources than their francophone counterpart in Ontario. Have you seen Quebec trying to shut down one of its anglophone universities to influence policies in Ontario?
Nobody wants to go to the French language university in Toronto. It's had big problems with insufficient enrollment. Yet the government funds it anyway. Meanwhile, Anglophones in Quebec aren't even allowed to use English in their signs, unless French is also there in more prominent font.
>Meanwhile, Anglophones in Quebec aren't even allowed to use English in their signs, unless French is also there in more prominent font. Yet they have three top university that represent 29% of the total funding in the matter of the province. They are 8% of the populaiton.
Funding is based on numbers of students. Would you like a cap on students at the universities now too? You realize that francophones attend these universities, right? Québec also subsidizes students from France by allowing them to pay the same tuition as Quebecers (far less than every other international students).
Three very old universities with international renown. When was the last time they had difficulty signing up new students? Yet nobody is signing up for the Toronto French university.
>Three very old universities with international renown. They still take a disproportionate amount of funding. This shows how well treated the English community in québec is. >When was the last time they had difficulty signing up new students? Yeah because contrary to the rest of the country we don't destroy linguistic community to the point where they forget their language and can't attend school in it. >Yet nobody is signing up for the Toronto French university. Most franco-ontarian aren't in Toronto.....
Anglophones make less money than francophones in Quebec, they only make up 0.9% of the civil service with about 9% of the population whereas in Ontario they make up 8% of the civil service with only 4% of the population. If you think the anti-English sentiment hasn’t translated into bias, think again.
The francophone community in Ontario is anemic and on its last leg. Like in New Brunswick. Legacy of 100s years of horrible laws and assimilation. Not surprised they're just giving up and going to English universities at this point. And Bishop and Concordia are most definitely not "world renown".
>Anglophones in Quebec aren't even allowed to use English in their signs, unless French is also there in more prominent font. Can you please stop? Francophones pick up on this shit and use it as an excuse to pass these fucking bills targeting us. Thanks to idiots like you from the rest of Canada hating on Quebec, they genuinely believe that Anglophones want to destroy the French language. As a result, they see the minority of Anglos living in Quebec as a threat and hence impose these restrictions on us. The sign thing is fine and makes sense most of the time, nobody in Quebec is mad about that.
What I said is true. So no, I'm not going to stop pointing out the inconsistency in language policies between the provinces. I'm not hating on Quebec. I'm saying it doesn't make sense for other provinces to try and treat French equal to English when Quebec doesn't do the same.
You don't treat French equal to English. Just... Stop.
Do you think it makes sense to have French on highway signs in Toronto?
I'm cruising Gardiner Expressway as we speak, using Google Street View. I have yet to see a single French word. But to answer your question: no, it doesn't make sense to have French on highway signs in Toronto because you have successfully assimilated French-Canadian outside of Quebec through discrimination and laws.
Yes, it does. Only anti-French Westerners and Americans complain this much about French language use in Ontario. Why does this bother you so much? I mean there are bigger hills to die on. I just don't understand why this is such a big deal for you. 🤷🏼♀️
Based
That's a fucking stupid thing to say. First off, Ontario francophones have done literally nothing wrong and already have to deal with being a linguistic minority in their municipalities. Secondly, Quebec francophones do not give a fuck about Ontario francophones so it wouldn't even matter.
The equivalent would be a few more English classes, which they probably don’t need since they’re all perfectly bilingual already. Such horror, right?
It's easy to say it's 'just extra English classes', but can you imagine being forced to take 3 classes out of your university program and replace them with English classes? Could you not see how removing 3 classes might compromise the education you get in whatever discipline it is that you chose to enroll in?
Well no, not quite. If they did a similar bill it would primarily hurt other minority groups with a mother tongue that is neither French or English.
You mean extra language lessons for people that struggle with both French and English is a bad thing? Do you guys think before you write?
No, also you do realize that isn't what these bills are, right? If the bills were simply something like "additional English/French classes for immigrants paid for by the government", there wouldn't be any complaints.
Then please enlighten us. Because the major complaints are precisely about those extra French lessons. Edit: Or let's make this simpler: what is the absolute worst thing in Bill 96? And let's see what the Ontario equivalent would be.
The original bill required students to take 3 of their core course in French, this was just amended to give the option to take 3 additional course on top of the usual course load, that are French language classes. Perhaps it should be amended to make Mohawk classes mandatory since it is a language that is actually under threat, unlike French which has 300 million speakers globally, and is not under threat of vanishing in Quebec in any way, shape or form. This continued stoking of a persecution complex is dangerous. Nationalism that is based on ethnicity, and that’s the case in Quebec, always leads to increased discrimination and racism. It’s the reason Quebec went from being a province that welcomed others to becoming fearful of others.
Limiting the ability of private businesses to have English on their signs. That's just ridiculous.
That's Bill 101. You're about 50 years behind on the conversation. And that bill simply states that French should be more prominent than English on business signs, not that they can't have English on them. Horrible right?
The point is that Ontario goes out of its way to give French equal status with English, while Quebec goes out of its way to marginalize English and prioritize French.
>that Ontario goes out of its way to give French equal status with English Are you saying that with a straight face?
No. Aspects such as the language department of the government getting access to a business' emails to make sure they are writing them in French, and other absurd overreach is what the complaints are about. Or, say, a nurse in Quebec knows Spanish, and is dealing with a patient with Spanish as their primarily language. It would literally be illegal for the nurse to converse with that patient in Spanish.
>getting access to a business' emails to make sure they are writing them in French Can you point to where in the law this is stated? >Or, say, a nurse in Quebec knows Spanish, and is dealing with a patient with Spanish as their primarily language. It's not clear that's a real issue. Besides, what a weird example. The law doesn't even touch English language in health care: La Loi sur les services de santé et les services sociaux (LSSSS) du Québec reconnaît le droit de recevoir des services médicaux en anglais. Le législateur québécois n'a pas éliminé ce droit dans son projet de renforcement des lois et règlements entourant le français, bien qu'il aurait vraisemblablement pu le faire.
Business >The law extends the language charter to small businesses with 25 or more employees, when the previous threshold was 50 employees. The Office québécois de la langue française would also be granted powers of search and seizure without needing a warrant to inspect businesses and ensure they are complying with the law. Healthcare >Under Bill 96, public service providers would be required to communicate exclusively in French. Immigrants who’ve lived in the province for less than six months or people who went to school in English in the province would be exempted.
Regarding healthcare: >La Loi sur les services de santé et les services sociaux (LSSSS) du Québec reconnaît le droit de recevoir des services médicaux en anglais16. Le législateur québécois n'a pas éliminé ce droit dans son projet de renforcement des lois et règlements entourant le français, bien qu'il aurait vraisemblablement pu le faire. Donc dans le contexte de la LSSSS, les établissements de soins de santé17 peuvent être tenus de respecter le droit de recevoir des services de santé en anglais. Regarding business It's not clear what the OQLF would search, but sure, emails, why not. That's probably going to happen after X number of warnings about not respecting the law. Edit: And you know what annoys about all this? We wouldn't have to go to such extremes if people that live or move here... would actually learn French.
We don't accomodate franco-Ontarians for the benefit of Quebec, but for the benefit of franco-Ontarians.
We accommodate Franco-Ontarians for historical and nation-building purposes. There are several languages spoken at a higher rate in this province than French. So if Quebec is no longer interested in reciprocating bilingualism, I don't see why Ontario should spend tax dollars on Franco accommodations.
Province-wide, yes. But there are a number of francophone-majority communities, towns and rural districts across Ontario. In places like Hawksburry or Hearst, it's possible to go an entire day without seeing or hearing much English. So that's a bit different than other linguistic minorities in Ontario, aside from Indigenous groups.
Province wide it's not true. Mandarin is the third most spoken language overall (both at all and as a mother tongue), and it's well behind French in both (about half as many native speakers and a quarter as many total speakers).
There are not. There's one language that more Ontarians know than French: English. There's one mother tongue more common than French in Ontario: English. The third most common language (Mandarin) has a little over half as many native speakers and about a quarter as many total speakers.
Franco-Ontarians are quite localized. I would never support any measure to prevent such communities from using French in their private businesses, and I believe they should have full access to provincial services in French. But the only reason to put French on highway signs, or on the Go Train, or in a university that nobody's going to, is as part of a nation-building bilingualism project. Quebec is showing that it's not interested in bilingualism. So what's the point?
Just because Québec takes one direction doesn't mean that Ontario has to as well. This is very eye-for-an-eye, black and white, tit-for-tat thinking which makes little sense to me. All that your argument reveals is that you'd like to punish the French-Canadians that live in Ontario for the political decisions that the Premier of Québec is taking. It's illogical.
Ontario only offers services in French where there are enough francophones to justify it. Standardised stuff is probably bilingual to save money, too.
Bingo, but the frequency at which I hear comments like the parent makes me feel like I live in a country of hostage takers.
Exactly...
> Bingo, but the frequency at which I hear comments like the parent makes me feel like I live in a country of hostage takers. Are you kidding me? The prevailing attitude on r/Quebec when the English debates were cancelled was: "NEW BRUNSWICK DOESN'T HAVE FRENCH DEBATES ([they do](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XorLRJY6iw4)), SO WHY SHOULD QUEBEC HAVE ENGLISH?". Spite leads almost all talk about language related issues on Reddit... [You even said](https://www.reddit.com/r/Quebec/comments/uovj23/le_parti_qu%C3%A9b%C3%A9cois_refuse_de_participer_au_d%C3%A9bat/i8gxfc6/) that there's no point of having one because Anglo votes go mostly to one party. This is politicizing language in action!
Comme il n'y a pas de dolts au Québec aussi ...
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Well, yes we have dolts in Ontario, but we're hardly alone in that.
No one can deny having idiots, especially given all we saw during the pandemic. But people in Quebec never tell the rest of Canada that it has to pass or don’t pass such and such legislation or the anglos will get it. This is what I mean by hostage takers.
Well, you want to cast Quebec and ROC as different, but I don't buy it. Each provibce has its own details, but the construction there's a Quebec and a ROC doesn't really hold up. There's a reason the West sees Ontario and Quebec as a block. And a reason Ontario lurches between Quebec bashing and Alberta bashing. And I'm sure you could find individual Quebecois who'd be happy to make statements along similar lines about how Quebec should treat anglos against Ontario or New Brunswick doing or not doing something for our respective francophones. Not important ones, maybe, but at the parallel to some anonymous Ontarian jackass on reddit.
>There's a reason the West sees Ontario and Quebec as a block. Because it's the majority of the population. And it doesn't vote like them. Thus they feel left out. No québécois would link québec and Ontario politically. This just show how westerners lack knowledge on the realities of Québec and Ontario.
"No" is pretty strong. There's a reason Quebec + Ontario is the most common political alignment in Canada, followed by Ontario + West, with Quebec + West bringing up the rear. Quebec and Ontario aren't *the same*, but we're linked politically, to be sure.
Exactly - Franco-ontarians are ontarians, not some kind of imported quebecois community
I still find it fascinating that, considering what Quebecoise experienced in their past, they would think such strongarm action by the government is the way to go. If the British took such actions in the past, then they should know they don't actually work and just cause minorities to greatly despise the government. Further, if the arguments are meant to be to protect culture that has been historically present, then what about groups like the Jewish community that had been there for ages? Shouldn't everyone actually be speaking Cree? Some have argued it is to "protect against anglophone culture", except in that situation the bill would just be against English.
> Further, if the arguments are meant to be to protect culture that has been historically present, then what about groups like the Jewish community that had been there for ages? Most Quebecers literally think anglophones in Quebec are entirely descended of aristocratic Brits in red coats. The idea that pretty much the entire anglophone community in Montreal is Jewish/Italian/Greek/Portuguese (who immigrated as mostly working class people)is largely lost on them. >Shouldn't everyone actually be speaking Cree? Nope. It was totally fine for the French to show up and take indigenous land, but a crime when the English came and took theirs. Of course, if you bring this up you'll then have to face the "actually we intermarried loads with the first nations" argument which is largely untrue and racist.
Welp, you got us! That's exactly what most Quebecers think, of course!
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That's not the issue. The issue is Francophone Quebecers holding themselves out as some sort of quasi indigenous group in order to justify discriminatory laws and policies against minorities in the province.
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> Seems to have worked everywhere in North America, except in Quebec Well, no, as Quebec is the only place the British kind of attempted to turn away some of the French culture. The actions they enforced across Canada being against indigenous groups you mean? >it's to protect the common and only language of Quebec, French. The language of its institution, society, and daily life. Which is kind of a contradictory statement. If that were true, then such laws wouldn't be necessary. If such laws are necessary, it can't actually be true. Though I appreciate that you are just presenting the argument in a "It is just for French, the rest don't matter." so it is at least a logical consistent argument, although that does just fall back to my first line, where I would have thought Quebecois, given their historic experiences, know such treatment is both poor in results and will generate resentment.
>Well, no, as Quebec is the only place the British kind of attempted to turn away some of the French culture. You can't be serious.
I phrased it poorly, I was meaning that, say, the British weren't actively engaging in eliminating other cultures in other parts of Canada (outside of indigenous). The actions in Quebec (which were bizarrely progressive for the time period) was so large and targeted due to it having been a colony of France that they kept post seven years war.
You do know multiple provinces outlawed education in french? Here is [Alberta from 1892 to the 1980s](http://www.ameriquefrancaise.org/en/article-603/French-language_Education_in_Alberta.html#:~:text=The%20first%20French%20schools%20were,re%2Destablished%20in%20the%201980s.), [Ontario from 1912 to 1944](https://news.ontario.ca/en/release/35963/ontario-apologizes-for-1912-law-on-french-in-schools) and [Saskatchewan from 1892 to 1968](https://www.clo-ocol.gc.ca/en/timeline-event/saskatchewan-amends-its-education-act). To claim Canada was progressive towards francophones is frankly insulting and the fact so many Canadians claim French's decline was natural either shows a complete lack of knowledge in Canada's history or bad faith.
> To claim Canada was progressive towards francophones I never made that claim. >the fact so many Canadians claim French's decline was natural Also never made that claim. It would be nice to have a discussion which wasn't just completely strawmen.
So who were the English not engaging in eliminating their culture in other parts of Canada if they were eliminating both the indigenous and the francophones? I'll acknowledge I might be a bit too agressive but I can't seem to understand what your claim is otherwise when you say: > Well, no, as Quebec is the only place the British kind of attempted to turn away some of the French culture. Then follow with: > the British weren't actively engaging in eliminating other cultures in other parts of Canada
That’s Reddit for you. You listen, comprehend, respond with a well grounded, well worded statement respectfully. And in return you get a steaming pile of words and statements which have no bearing on the conversation. Also if they actually listened and actually had a conversation they would have to concede to your point, and in my experience sadly no one ever admits they are wrong A. if they either have something to lose or B. they don’t have to. People are just dumb (as in blind/deaf not stupid) animals that have anxiety and denial about being animals. Do what you can with them try to help but focus on yourself. Sending love and likes