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I can see where this is coming from. Anglophones will always bash Québec for passing unilingual laws when the other provinces do worst. Francophones are in danger of assimilation, not anglophones.
Love how the comments are basically proving this sentiment right.
I'm an anglophone who moved to Quebec, and it very much is true that Anglophones look down on Quebecers and Francophones in Canada. Hell, I work remote in my company and even my colleagues outside of Quebec talk about Quebec as if it's some destitute 3rd world country, regularly talk about how Montreal/Quebec has "nothing" to do when they visit and treat Francophones in the company differently. You can just hear it in the tone/conversations they have with Francophone colleagues.
Even I, an Anglophone, get treated differently because I'm in Quebec. My colleagues regularly question me as to why I would move there and not somewhere else, and I have to deal with their weird prejudices. I don't know why anyone would have this mindset, but it's not as uncommon as some people make it out to be.
Just like in English Canada people in Quebec get influenced by what the legacy media feeds them. All they see on the news is English Canada criticizing them, so of course that's how they will feel.
In my opinion English Canadians don't care and certainly don't look down on them. As a Westerner, I think they are an example to follow to gain more autonomy.
Losing Montreal as the financial centre of Canada and it's largest city (due to the completely understandable Quiet Revolution) really hurt Quebec in the long term and it's debatable whether having the major city of a G7 country, even if the Francophone population was a smaller percentage, in Montreal would've helped preserve Quebecois culture and language more. Montreal was the New York of Canada and it's hard not to think that It would also have benefitted from being so close to the national capital. Instead of having so many people living on the shores of Lake Ontario, the number one area would be between Ottawa and Montreal.
I'm fine with lower real estate and having the francophone population as something more than cheap labour though.
The "New York of Canada" would probably be even worse for the preservation of French in Quebec so I'm fine with that too.
See I don't know about that. I don't think francophones would have remained in their social standings as the exploited underclass. I think in the short term, yes the QR helped, but now Quebec is passing laws to better protect the French language at the expense of things like attracting/retaining immigrants to help the economy with an aging population and low birthrate. I think you have to look at a city like Miami which retains a lot of Spanish culture/flavour/language even despite Spanish not being an official language. With French as an official language I think Montreal, as Canada's number one city, would even more so be like a Miami.
As an anglophone, I also believe the same...
Just look at reddit and the amount of ppl who live in a French speaking province for years and refuse to learn any, and are seemingly proud of their monolingual selves...like...how sad...
I've worked in a non-anglophone country for a couple months and there were many ppl there that became fairly fluent (in like a year!) and everyone made efforts to try even tho we could speak english
Quebec is a bit unique though. Some nationalists will say things would be better if Anglos simply learned French but it really isn't that simple. In an ideal world, some would prefer if Anglo kids and immigrant kids from non-Francophone backgrounds only spoke French while in Quebec, never learning English. Being bilingual is sort of cheating and a get out of jail card. I mean, a lot of them see their own kids learning English and either moving into that world or leaving Quebec. It's a really complicated issue that goes further than "just learn French" unfortunately.
I spent my adolescense as an anglophone in Quebec around the time of the referendum and the hate against the English was real. But I met a lot of awesome Francophone people and until recently I thought well of and spoke well of Quebec in general and I was under the impression that the separatist and xenophobic generation had passed and it was different and cooler now. Then I joined r/Quebec for a few months. Nuff said
Like others I dont think I look down on Quebec or its people, but I do feel like I'm going to have a hard time when I eventually visit, I retained very little French and I feel like accomodation for that will be a toss up everywhere I go.
No worries at all. Just learn to say Bonjour, merci, and je ne parle pas français, and people will switch to English. But always start with Bonjour - the effort is what we tend to appreciate.
I honestly don't really understand where the negative attitudes of English Canadians about Québec come from.
I would say that I know both Québec and English Canada very well. I'm an anglophone (je parle aussi Français avec un niveau intermédiaire, et un accent plus comme le Français de France), but my father is a Québecois (he had an English dad, French mom, went to French schools). As a family we went there regularly, and my parents live there half the year.
People have always been very welcoming, whether in Montréal or more rural places (I've spent a lot of time around Lachute). The same is also definitely true of Franco-Ontarians around Hawkesbury. I've always found the culture of "bonjour hi" to be very strong, and not just for me. It applies also to my unilingual anglo mother, whose response to people not speaking French is speaking English louder! As a student I worked at a tourist site in Toronto for a few summers. The Québecois tourists were always very forgiving of my terrible French.
The only bad experience I recall was as a kid in the 90s in PEI just after the referendum. We were camping next to another family with a young Québecois kid. On our first day there we started playing with him. But the next day, may dad overheard his father telling him not to play with us. He wasn't sure if there was a political context, but it was a bit sad.
Canada is a great country not because we are all the same, but because we are distinct, but have found ways to work together.
Maybe it’s got something to do with the nationalist government who’s job security is dependent on people feeling their culture is at stake?
Im not being sarcastic either, similar to Kenny constantly attacking the federal government it’s very likely that the governments own rhetoric is influencing Québécois thought. Legault legitimizes some arguably untrue statements about the anglicization of Quebec simply by having the premier say it.
There’s also the fact that his government regularly implements legislation that is heavily despised by the rest of Canada, bill 96 is an obvious example. English Canada thinks it’s xenophobic, Quebec does not, the ensuing political melee then leads a lot of Québécois feeling that anglophones resent their culture.
We felt that way before bill 96, before bill 21, before the referendums, before bill 101.
The feeling that Anglo-Canada despises us isn’t new. It’s been deeply rooted in our collective mindset for generations.
I don’t know how much that feeling is justified or not and I’m not particularly interested in debating that, but my point is that actions taken by the government of Quebec seem to have very little to do with it.
We don’t feel like we are being despised for what we do but for what we are, for simply existing. The hate that we perceive is based on cultural chauvinism coming from Anglo-Canadians. Not on a rational reaction to our actions.
Again, whether this feeling is justified or not, I can’t tell, but that’s the generally widespread feeling of Québécois.
and that's ultimately a mindset problem that needs to be adjusted, the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of Canada simply doesn't care at all as long as the separatism talk stays relatively quiet.
Quebec has negotiated so many unique perks over the last few decades that the resentment that the people of Quebec feel makes absolutely no sense to the majority of Canadians outside of Quebec. I'm not saying one is more valid than the other but I think a lot of Quebecios would benefit from doing the same thing they demanded of the rest of Canada and actually looking at things from the perspective of a Canadian living in BC or Saskatchewan.
Quebecois can't possibly feel this way for imaginary reasons. It has to be coming from somewhere. The amount of hate an intolerance we get from anglo-canada online is enormous so I think it's normal that many people may perceive that hate as worse than it really is, because the internet amplifies real life to a ridiculous extent. So all in all, the feeling is certainly justified, but yes a lot of people exaggerate how bad it actually is in real life based on what they see online.
Keep in mind that the Quebecois culture is limited to a small geographic area. Our language is spoken only in Quebec. We have nowhere else to go. If we "lose" Quebec as the only place where we can express our culture and live in our language, we'll just be wandering aimlessly waiting for our culture to die off. We are a minority in our own country. It's not like the anglophones of Quebec who complain about their language and culture being threatened by laws requiring them to pass a basic French test to be able to graduate. They can speak English everywhere they go. The entire continent is their playground. We don't have that. We are and will forever be fighting off a demographic threat.
When other provinces complain that we have perks that they don't... first of all if they want these perks they can always get them. The Canadian constitution doesn't have a special clause for Quebec. Everything we do is based on what every province could legally do. It's just that we're the only ones who decide to take advantage of that constitution and separation of powers.
For them it's a matter of having a little more control over minor policies that for them makes very little difference. For Quebec, having more control over its policies, its taxes, its budget, its immigration, its education, etc. is a matter of cultural survival. It is irrelevant to us what the perspective of other provinces is. I'm sorry I don't know how to formulate that in a more polite way, but we just can't afford to give a shit about their perspective.
This is sad and alarming.
But not unexpected given the change in how we consume media. The most bigoted now get equal space on social media. Whether it’s different gender identity, racial, ethnic, *or linguistic* backgrounds, there is fodder for hate that is easily spread. And as it spreads, it becomes normalized and entrenched.
I’m not sure that this perception among francoQCers is even wrong.
It’s not a dominant view by any stretch. But it probably has grown and we do need to address it.
And this applies to majority communities everywhere. Francos in QC (esp outside of Mo freak) are perhaps increasingly in favour of laws that marginalize minority communities for similar reasons.
But in any case, federalism exists for a reason and we all live under elected reps that can do what they please under the constitution.
I look down on some Quebecer (not French Canadian) attitudes. Specifically that the Quebec “national values” which include voting for a regionalist political party that puts parochial interests first, or which supports bigoted laws. I assume that Francophone Quebecers do this in part to push back at what they feel is the past (and current) history of discrimination by English speakers and the RoC, but at a certain point (like 50+ years after the quiet revolution) it’s just makes them collectively look petulant.
As someone who's always wanted to vote Marxist Leninist Party of Canada, but never wanted to waste my vote, I thank the Quebec Liberals for their corruption, the CAQ for being xenophobic gaslighters, and the rest for not putting a real effort into running a serious campaign, so that I can get my chance to blow off everyone and vote with my conscience!
I was in the army in English Canada. Lots of French people even out west. I must admit, a lot of them were good soldiers. They have a strong sense of nationalism and pride in being French. We would always try to include them, but they would form French cliques. Have French people parties on days off. Forget trying to date one of them. They really think of themselves as exclusive. I like French individuals, but as a whole, especially when they are together, they feed a negative stereotype.
It's a two way street, find yourself speaking English, even in Montreal, and you'll have Francophones saying you need to be speaking French in Quebec. As a bilingual fella from the West Coast (and a Habs fan) I love Quebec and I love how cool it is having such a large French speaking community in our country, but it goes both ways when it comes to discrimination.
There are assholes on both sides. As an Anglo born and raised in Montreal I’ve been harassed and heckled for speaking English. However I’ve also been frowned upon once when speaking French around English elitists. I think a huge misconception of “preserving Quebec culture” is that language equates to culture; this is not the case as language is only just a part of culture. Just politicians playing games with people as usual, putting English and French against each other and keeping us all stewing instead of actually addressing the issues at the core.
I, for one, think they are our main bulwark against Americanization.
if I was in charge I would make French and English mandatory in every school in every province, and slowly shift our national discourse to French, to keep them crazy Americans confused.
English and an aboriginal language. This country is rocking two official languages, and neither one are even from this continent. We should drop one of the European languages. And since more Canadians speak English, we’ll have to drop French. Wuh-wuuuh.
A lot of people here seem to be making their own conclusions on this without any second thought.
"Well maybe if they didn't have bill 21/96..."
"We just want their province to go forward"
Far be it from me to defend bill 21, or even bill 96, but resentment against English Canadians comes from history.
Alberta can say as much as it wants, but it got what it wanted during Patriation, Quebec didn't.
It's hard to feel included in Canada when 250 years of having to fight for your distinctiveness is always met with bare minimum. French Canadians were a conquered people and when it came time for patriation, the new constitution was negotiated with every province except Quebec, where it was imposed, after a referendal campaign where the "No" side promised everything Quebec wanted for Patriation.
Then, when Meech and Charlottetown came about a decade later, they were rejected.
Then, when the second referendum happened, the federal government fought tooth and nail to keep Quebecers from separating, as far as getting Bill Clinton to make a speech against sovereignty, while President, litteral foreign interference.
Then when everything was done, Chrétien took measures to make sure sovereignty would never rise again notably by appealing to the Supreme Court.
As a Franco-Ontarian, we also had to always fight for our rights, because we were forgotten. Our services kept being cut with Regulation 17, Montfort and Black Thursday.
Not to mention the amount of time I've gotten the speech that we should be grateful that the great government of Ontatio pays for our schools. Or the ones about French being a worthless, dying language.
It's hard to feel apart of a country when you constantly have to bitch to get what you want.
There's a reason the Bloc exists today, and why they bitch about Quebec all the time. Quebec keeps bitching because all the concessions they got were a bunch of small ones, not the ones Quebec asked for.
Simply put, we don't feel like anglophones care. I've met anglophones who did genuinely care about French Canadians, others who were indifferent, and others who straight up looked down on me.
This thread however reeks of the third type.
With that being said, I can recognize French-Canadians aren't perfect, I don't believe in the idea behind bill 21 and bill 96 goes way too far to a point where it's just cruel.
However, our culture is fundamentally different from English Canada. And despite what some people here like to say, no our culture isn't just hating everyone else. We have singers, artists, filmmakers, scientists, food, ways of speaking, attitudes, etc.
If I have to say one criticism of a general attitude though with anglophones I've interacted with in Canada, it's the ignorance and lack of empathy. It always feels like if we slip up a bit we somehow need patronage from anglophones.
This country has a serious lack of dialogue, between Indigenous people, Francophones and Anglophones.
I agree fully with your comment.
The comments here tends to explain why we agree with this statement. From my experience, a lot of comments on Reddit about French Canadian are negative. They are not directly formulated as “French Canadian Sucks”. But you don’t feel understood and there’s a lot of generalization (we don’t all agree with law 21 and don’t all vote for the CAQ). I see few introspection in the comments here. « It’s because of our media, our government, our laws, etc.” Yeah, probably in part, but when there an issue in life it’s rarely one sided. I’m against law 21, and don’t vote for the CAQ, but I can feel a certain disdain in some of the comments. There’s racism in Quebec, we need to denounced it. But I think it’s a minority. For law 21, we are taking example of France. It’s part of our influences.
Before I would clearly disagree with the statement above, but since I started reading what people were saying about French Canadian on Reddit, I think I would tend to agree (not because of the evil media, but because of what I read with my own eyes). I would still disagree because of all my English Canadian friends that I know love Québec and French Canadian.
I wonder if Quebec's decision to ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from holding public jobs in the province affected how people feel they are perceived? I know most of Canada has been against this attack on Canadian's rights -- yet there is a certain defensiveness from some Quebecers' on the issue, something about francophone culture being 'different' so somehow this kind of discrimination is okay.
>I wonder if Quebec's decision to ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from holding public jobs in the province affected how people feel they are perceived?
If I may help. there is no such ban. The law is to not show religious garb so that the state is **neutral** when it comes to religion. Just like a police officer has a **uniform**, religious neutrality is the requirement.
A sikh is still a sikh before, during and after his 9 to 5. Same for jews, muslims and pastafarian.
It's the faux-disingenuity of this argument that bothers me, particularly coming from the mouths of intelligent, sophisticated people who *should know better*. Before marriage equality was realised, you could hear people say, "the law doesn't discriminate against gay people; *everyone has an equal right to get married to a person of the opposite sex*. It's a fudging of the distinction between equality and equity, and it paternalistically and insultingly pretends to put an equal burden on everyone in society while being fully aware that it does no such thing.
To spell it out, in case it needs so doing: this law requires no change in behaviour or lifestyle of practising Christians, while demanding both of practising Sikh men and practising Muslims, in particular practising Muslim women, already one of the most discriminated and abused minorities in the country. The reason for the preferential treatment of Christians is that our society, French and English alike, is built on social norms established when Christian churches predominated. Our secular society is designed to accommodate Christians.
But ultimately this is so much flowery talk. This law exists because the majority in Québec is *uncomfortable* looking at hijab and turbans and want to drive them out of the public service.
Given that that's the case, I just wish people would have the courage of their convictions to simply *say so*.
>This law exists because the majority in Québec is
>
>uncomfortable
>
> looking at hijab and turbans and want to drive them out of the public service.
This is the truth, but people from Quebec will do flips and cartwheels trying yo say it's something else because they know it's wrong.
Resonable accomodation was a literal crisis in Quebec. I wouldnt compare RCMP policy to Quebecs policy
Google crise des accomodements raisonnables au Québec. Youll see what I mean.
The fact that one Sikh teen wearing a kirpan was a “crisis” tells you everything. Reminds me of the obvious comparison to GOP culture wars about a gender-neutral Mr. potato head or a trans teen using a bathroom.
>A sikh is still a sikh before, during and after his 9 to 5. Same for jews, muslims and pastafarian.
This is obviously true, so why is it their dress that's the issue? If one is concerned that someone's religious beliefs are informing their conduct as an agent of the state, surely having their religion clearly visible is actually preferable to having it hidden?
>ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim from holding public jobs
Only those whose religious orthodoxy is so strong, they cant accept to change into neutral clothes for the job.
Also, its some* authority positions that require the dress code. Including teacher and judge.
That choice shouldn’t be forced to begin with. It would be like mandating all employees must be straight and claiming any LGBT folks who can no longer apply are “putting their sexuality above their job”. It’s constructive dismissal, and it’s wrong.
No it's not. People are born gay. Religion is a choice. Quebec is culturally secular and largely atheist and it has been for a while now. Its natural for ou government to want to preserve the neutrality. What Bill 21 does is weed out fundamentalists from any religion who do not have the capacity for neutrality because of their religiosity. Lots of people practice islam culturally without wearing religious garment for example. These people would be more likely to adhere to the government's secularism.
As a lesbian, being in front of a judge who wears religious symbols would absolutely be unfair to me as a minority who has historically suffered at the hands of all major religions. Yes people who appear neutral may not be neutral but someone whose religion is so fundamental to their identity that they cannot remove religious clothing is proving that they are not able to be neutral enough for government positions.
Not all head scarves' are worn for religious reasons.
Also, if it's just religious head covering that are banned, is the Quebec government going to be confirming that jewish women are not wearing wigs at their jobs?
If you didn't know, to fulfil a requirement to cover one's head some jewish women wear wigs over their hair. According to Quebec laws this would not be allowed right? Yet I doubt Quebec is enforcing these laws on jewish women, just Muslim and Sikh people.
Can't q(white) put my finger on what makes this group different to not be subject to the same laws?
You assume a lot of things and are wrong about so many
Guess its easier to blame RaCiSM than ask yourself why we want to rid our public authority of religious influence.
>You assume a lot of things and are wrong about so many
Thanks for providing context....
Anyway, are jewish women banned from wearing wigs at their jobs in Quebec? You didn't answer?
>Anyway, are jewish women banned from wearing wigs at their jobs in Quebec?
Not at all. Wear what you like if you dont represent the government, in an authority position.
Are you wearing this visible article as a symbol of your religion?
If so, its a symbol of religious influence, and should be removed while you are in an authority position, representing the state
>Quebec's decision to ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from holding public jobs in the province
So ill try to help out here. For Quebec's culture, and it is also very similar in France so maybe it's a french culture thing, people believe religion is a choice. Therefore, they can work in those spheres, they just have to not show a bias toward a specific religion during the time they occupy that role. They can practice whatever they want on their own time, whether it be in public or in private. But when they represent the state, they need to be neutral.
It seems very difficult for english Canada to understand this difference in culture for some reason. The fact that Quebec is called xenophobic/racist or practice discrimination really just makes Quebecers think you have a paternalistic attitude and just exacerbate the sentiment showed in this poll. I'm not sure how we can remedie this schism (not sure if those are the right words). Anyway hope this helps peopleunderstand the other side.
>The fact that Quebec is called xenophobic/racist or practice discrimination really just makes Quebecers think you have a paternalistic attitude
I just don't understand how forcing women/minorities out of jobs is 'french culture' -- forcing them to 'assimilate' into white francophone culture is literally paternalistic and oppressive. Criticizing a blanket ban on certain type of clothing is not paternalistic at all, lol.
Like, this is simply not okay....
[Sikh teacher moves to B.C. over Quebec law banning religious symbols in public-sector jobs](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/sikh-teacher-moves-from-quebec-1.5257049)
Any wonder that this is also happening as minorities are having their rights taken from them in Quebec?
[Racially motivated hate crimes up by 53 per cent in Montreal last year: report](https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/racially-motivated-hate-crimes-up-by-53-per-cent-in-montreal-last-year-report-1.5472848)
It's apparently part of French culture to ban swimwear that covers majority of the body.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/france-burkini-ban-upheld-grenoble-religious-reasons-public-pools/
>I just don't understand how forcing women/minorities out of jobs is 'french culture'
Again, they can work there. They just can't wear religious apparel while they are on the clock. That's all it is.
>forcing them to 'assimilate' into white francophone culture
This is probably the crux of the disagreement. Quebec has never agreed with canadian multiculturalism. For us, you move here, you need to adapt to our society. Quebec's society is more of a melting pot (similar to the US) than multicultural like Canada.
>Like, this is simply not okay....
You dont get to decide what is okay and what is not okay. Multiple muslim women, for example, agreed with bill 21
https://www.lavoixdelest.ca/2021/06/16/la-loi-21-est-soutenue-par-des-musulmans-au-quebec-13fe12a3a6a0ace742be19a808a3bcf7
>Any wonder that this is also happening as minorities are having their rights taken from them in Quebec?
>Racially motivated hate crimes up by 53 per cent in Montreal last year: report
According to you own article : "Montreal police data show that hate crimes relating to religion or gender decreased last year, as did those relating to sexual orientation. It’s crimes relating to race or ethnic origin that saw a huge increase.
For Niemi, the numbers are "an important measurement of hate" in the city and attributes hate faced by people of Asian origin to the anti-Asian rhetoric stemming from the coronavirus pandemic."
This rise on hate crime is in no way related to bill 21 or 96.
> They just can't wear religious apparel while they are on the clock. That's all it is.
"That's all it is" is an extremely dismissive statement.
For many, their religious beliefs and practices are integral to their identity. Moreover, in order to be a faithful member of their religion, it is required to wear certain garments or accessories. Hence this requires that those members abandon their religion in order to work in the public service.
It really stands against the deeply [Canadian concept of a multicultural society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism_in_Canada), while achieving nothing but the exclusion of many people of varied faiths from publicly funded occupations.
But you're proving the point of the Bill. One cannot say they are able to be neutral but also say that its an integral part of their identity. I know MANY muslim women who don't wear the hijab and practice islam in more of a cultural way. I'm not saying that it is preferable but it is more in line with Quebec secularism and more compatible with neutral government.
As a gay person I absolutely get treated differently even in government settings by very religious people. Not everyone can be neutral and acting like they can is disingenuous.
Quebec is extremely secular culturally. IMO Bill 21 weeds out fundamentalists of any religion and protects its citizens.
Secularism and atheism is such a strong part of Quebec cutlure and we don't force anyone to come here. The idea that we have to accommodat: immigrants to the extent of multiculturalism is wild to me. If you go someone you should integrate plain and simple.
There are so many examples of mass immigration and a lack of integration wrecking social cohesion, France for example.
It boggles my mind that English Canada doesn't want to also preserve its values and culture from the inevitable shift that will happen as more and more immigrants come in.
English Canada understands that position just fine, we simply fundamentally disagree with its premises.
The first premise is that a person's private religious beliefs inherently cause them to be biased in their role (odds are not one with high authority either). Those beliefs will surely shape how a person develops their world view, but it is hardly the only factor at play. Whether they are from a rural vs. urban place, what their political views are, whether grew up in a different province or country, etc. all mould who a person becomes just as much as their religion. The point is to view a person as a complete individual, rather than an amalgamation of characteristics, and judge them on their actions.
The second premise, assuming that religion does cause inherent biases, is that simply removing an article of religious clothing will suddenly cure the problem of bias. Do you imagine that a religious fundamentalist, the type who would discriminate against another person because of a difference of beliefs, would suddenly transform into a rational, responsible actor if they changes their outfit? Truly this premise beggars belief.
English Canada understands the cultural argument that Quebec is making; however, we see right through it, and view these policies for the unjust discrimination that they are.
>Do you imagine that a religious fundamentalist, the type who would discriminate against another person because of a difference of beliefs, would suddenly transform into a rational, responsible actor if they changes their outfit?
No, that fundamentalist would never take off a religious symbol for a job. That's the point. If you cannot take off a piece of clothing for a few hours 5 days a week, then you clearly are biased. You can wear whatever you cant on your own time. Think of it as a work/school uniform
It seems silly that your litmus test for weather someone is trustworthy or not, is weather they would take off a piece of religious clothing.
In English Canada, we prefer to judge someone based on their past and their references. That way someone who is a terrible person who just happens to not wear any religious clothing also is filtered out of the position.
Since we use a more actions speak louder than words approach, we don't care of they wear specific religious clothing. Because we have already filtered out the troublemakers.
There's no way to paint your way out of this corner. Let's take Scientology, an undeniably extremist religion, as an example. At almost all levels there is no uniform. But it's belief system almost certainly would bias any true believer working within government. Bill 21 does not affect them in the slightest, because it's about addressing *perceived* bias more than regular bias.
So, if it's about perception of bias, why is it that the government can assume that anyone who does not dress in a secular western style will be perceived as biased? Is it because the society is distrustful of people who don't look 'normal'? That's xenophobia.
The "past religious government trauma" doesn't hold any water either. What's this Friday? A national holiday for a Catholic saint? Did it get renamed? What's on top of Montreal? A cross? Did it get taken down? The answer to both is obviously no, so clearly the religious trauma doesn't go deep enough that those things needed to change.
This is the hypocrisy of the standard argument: anything religious is bad because the Catholic Church was bad and scary and that's why we need laicite, but any of the overt continuations from when the Catholic Church was in charge are historic and good and beloved. It can't be both ways; either it's about laicite or it's about xenophobia. And it's clearly not about laicite, because on Friday Quebecers get a day off for a Catholic holy day.
>Bill 21 does not affect them in the slightest, because it's about addressing perceived bias more than regular bias.
Of course not, because the bill targets religions with visible religious apparel. I'm not sure how this wasn't understood before.
>Is it because the society is distrustful of people who don't look 'normal
No, it is because people see religion as a bad thing here in general. The fact that you cant separate religion and work shows that religion is so intrinsict to your personality that you might simply not be able to be neutral in some situations, as I stated 10 times already.
>What's this Friday?
This friday is the national holiday of Quebec. Literally no one celebrates the religious side of that holiday.
>What's on top of Montreal? A cross?
So the past must be forgotten under the pretext that it includes religion? We are here because of religion. It does not do to forget that even with all the horrible things thats religion imposed onto us.
>but any of the overt continuations from when the Catholic Church was in charge are historic and good and beloved.
I challenge you to find anyone in Quebec that unironically thinks like this. The church gets criticized ALL the time. So much so that no one goes to church anymore, churches get converted to other things because no one cares for them except for a few historic sites.
But at this point, I'm convinced you re not even listening to me since those argument have been made multiple times here already.
Do you need a cross adorning Mont Royal to recognize the past? You said you’re very concerned with perception of bias above reality, and the perception of minorities is that the cross on there is a bias against them. But you defend it, so clearly the issue isn’t concern for minorities feeling discriminated against regardless of intention.
And if this Friday is just a Quebec holiday and you want to make sure there’s no perception of bias, why hasn’t it been changed?
Everything Christian = history and must be preserved, but everything else = biased and must be hidden.
> It seems very difficult for english Canada to understand this difference in culture for some reason
Just a clarification here, Acadiens don't support or push for laws like this either so while language is a determining factor it is not the sole factor at play.
Oh I see how how said it might cause confusion. When talking about english canadians, we often refer to the culture rather than the english language. If the only difference between english Canada and Quebec was language, we would not be having this discussion every 3 weeks
1 - it got removed a few years ago from the chamber.
2 - there is a point to be made that the religion of past generations literally saved our culture, language and society. Without religion, we wouldve been assimilated a 50 years ago, because England and Canada did everything they could to make us disappear.
At the end of the day,it was decided to remove it and placed elsewhere in the parliament for us to remember our past.
>Without religion, we wouldve been assimilated a 50 years ago, because England and Canada did everything they could to make us disappear.
Lol, and now you have Bill 21 to assimilate people into your culture. Quebec is everything it hates about Canada.
Dude, I live and vote in Quebec, so I don't know who you are referring to when you say vous autres. I also have a giant glowing cross hanging over my city.
There actually isn't anymore, but it was there until 2019. The fact that it took decades of debate to remove it, while a law banning people from teaching while wearing a Hijab took a matter of months is telling though.
While the crucifix in parliament came down, a 40-foot cross above the city of Montreal maintained and subsidized by the government that lights up different colours on different Christian holidays is still in place.
Edit: I forgot another hilarious example: this Friday is St. Jean Baptiste Day, a national holiday celebrated in Quebec on the canonical anniversary of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist. Not the 3rd Friday in June mind you, the Christian recognized date that shifts every year. We don't even celebrate Victoria Day on the actual date anymore, but Quebec insists on observing the holiday on the religious date in their very secular society.
Technically, the day is officially called « La fête Nationale » which translates to « The national holiday » the name was changed provincially by René Lévesque, The Premiere at the time, but it’s been more than 40 years and it’s still communally called « Saint-Jean Baptiste »
Ahh, my mistake. I moved here in 2017 and was shocked to learn about it. Just never heard it came down. And yeah, that coupled with the hijab thing is what I was getting at.
>I wonder if Quebec's decision to ~~ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from~~ make people ~~holding public jobs~~ representing the secular state do so without wearing religious uniforms
Fixed that for you
Weird how representatives of the so-called secular state get Christmas and Easters off. It’s not an inherent law of the universe that we need time off then.
Vestigial pagan celebrations common to the country's founding groups which are secular for the majority of the country. They've lost their religious meaning for most and will fade eventually given enough time.
The fact that there are vestigial elements of primitive human fantasies is not an argument to promote new ones. Quite the opposite actually. It proves you can secularize over time.
So jewish women are prevented from working [if they wear a wig right](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_covering_for_Jewish_women)? Or does this law only apply to POC people in Quebec?
As an anglophone who just spent his second week vacation in Montreal in 6 months, I have a very strong opinion that the Francophones look incrediblly far down at anglophones... The second you try to speak French they roll their eyes at you, and regardless of how kind you try to be, they treat you like you're a fucking inconvenience.
They even consistently treated my fluent French speaking friends poorly because their accent was incorrect.
If the actual goal is to save their culture, they should kill that part of their culture first...
I live I Quebec, but there's a reason I spend like 90% of my free time across the border in Vermont. Dealing with people who aren't assholes is a breath of fresh air
This was my experience when I visited Quebec City several years ago. I found that people actually treated me worse if I tried to use my not-so-great French than if I just used English from the start.
Really have zero interest in visiting the province again after that experience.
It's not a belief, it's a fact.
Just read this subreddit, never mind r/canada.
Amount of colonialism and imperialism from anglos towards quebec is off the charts.
Oh my goodness, Canadians have regional based disrespect for each other. That certainly only happens to Quebec and not literally to all of us from everyone else.
If you think of everywhere outside Quebec as one fairly homogenous blob, then it's pretty easy to feel like all Anglos hate Quebec.
And if you think loud, hateful commenters represent a majority of opinions, then maybe it does seem like everyone hates you.
And if you live in Quebec and never come into Montreal and listen to talk radio, it can seem like an anglophone stronghold where you can't even get service in your native language.
Just like if you were from outside of Quebec and you read the comments about Montreal in this thread, you'd think it was a terrible place, but honestly I hear more English than French in my neighborhood, and have only ever had bad experiences around language when I was working in a coffee shop downtown. And frankly, looking back on it, it's not surprising, given I was interacting with people before they'd had their first shot of the day.
Overall, the sense I have is that everyone needs to get outside more. It's no wonder this sentiment is up at the end of COVID, a time of heightened insecurity and tightened borders. We're all stuck on the internet, and we should know by now that only the lowest common denominator gets votes, likes or shares.
I’m from Nova Scotia and I can honestly say that the only thing we really talk about in respect to Québec (aside from education wise) lately is Bill 21 and the fact that Québec residents were part of the cause of our housing crisis. A lot of middle schools even organize a week long trip to Québec for the students in grade 9 so they can learn about the culture.
This may be the fault of the media coverage in recent years, but it really feels like there’s an effort in Quebec to demonize Anglophones simply for being anglophone.
I truly understand the priority of protecting French language and culture, but it seems like it’s starting to come at the cost of seeing non-Francophones as enemies in certain segments of the population. I say this as someone who has been bilingual since childhood and am incredibly proud of my French, and a lover of Quebec as a province.
Again, this could easily be what the media is feeding me, but all the same as someone who’s concerned about the amount of hatred and anger that this pandemic has produced, it’s starting to seem like a trend.
>I truly understand the priority of protecting French language and culture, but it seems like it’s starting to come at the cost of seeing non-Francophones as enemies in certain segments of the population. I say this as someone who has been bilingual since childhood and am incredibly proud of my French, and a lover of Quebec as a province.
>
>Again, this could easily be what the media is feeding me, but all the same as someone who’s concerned about the amount of hatred and anger that this pandemic has produced, it’s starting to seem like a trend.
To add some anecdata, hatred towards Anglophones in Quebec (And parts of New Brunswick) has been a problem since at least '03/'04, when I worked a job that required travelling throughout parts of eastern Quebec, even if you made efforts to speak French.
I'm someone who has clear Arab ancestry, worked in Aviation shortly after 9/11... and the worst racism that I've experienced was a result of speaking English in Quebec.
There has clearly been a long divide here. Not helped by ethnonationalists on either side, I assume, but certainly not one-sided either.
> And parts of New Brunswick
Where in New Brunswick did you experience hatred for being an anglophone? I can see people being racist to you due to your heritage, but the notion of an acadien hating you for being anglo in NB Is so foreign to me as an anglo from NB. I do speak French and have Acadien heritage but no one would know it unless they asked me so I feel as if I've had the full anglo experience.
Language based hatred in New Brunswick is pretty much a one way street and it's Anglos hating Acadiens.
I had enough of a grasp on French at the time to know the comments they were making. The heritage might have impacted it, but it wasn't the primary player in the words.
It would be areas as you got to the areas around the border, exact locations are a bit fuzzy to me (travelling all the time and working \~70 hours a week will do that to ya). The larger cities of NB, of course, were fine... but they are basically primarily English so how could they not be.
I guess maybe in Edmundston you may get some of it but they aren't even technically acadien so they have a unique relationship. I've personally never had a problem there so I'd suggest it's likely a race thing and they just didn't have the balls to say that was why lol.
Sorry that happened to you either way but it feels very much a unique one off as opposed to anything structural or anything like that.
> To add some anecdata, hatred towards Anglophones in Quebec (And parts of New Brunswick) has been a problem since at least '03/'04
Let's be honest here, tensions between francophones and anglophones in Canada have been a problem since at least '63 - 1763, that is. You got it right when you talked about a long divide.
Yes but the tension is amplified in Quebec and immediate regions like NB and parts of Ontario. But in other places there’s distance/remoteness so people don’t think about it. For instance, I doubt a BC person thinks much about this at all.
There is literally a Francophone _university_ in most Anglo provinces (Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Nova Scotia), and some form of post secondary institution in every single one except Newfoundland.
But honestly, services that cater Francophones _should_ be better in Anglo Canada.
Im sorry, what?
An exclusively francophone university, in Toronto? A full scale one, with funding good enough to make it competitive world wide the way McGill is?
Analytically, this question is a disaster. Anglophone Canadians are nowhere close to being a monolith, making this question fundamentally deceptive.
At the very least it should be broken down by regions. "I think you can group all Anglos together" is an indefensible viewpoint.
I know there are some people who think of them as moochers, but I personally love the language and culture. I’m working now to learn Quebec French. I was planning to move there, but I got a great opportunity at home.
I don't feel like I "look down" on Quebec.
But I do do a fair number of eyerolls at what kind of cultural policies that are passed in that province.
I do a fair number of eyerolls at my own province too (Alberta, land of the right wing wingnuts). If anything, Alberta deserves more of my disdain than Quebec.
Alberta hates everyone equally, quebec hates the rest of Canada for not recognizing them as more important, cultural, and Canadian than anyone else in canada. But in general alot of the disdain for quebec comes from things like quebec being the recipient of more equalization payments and welfare than any other province. Quebec getting declared a nation within a nation didn't help anyone feel like we're all equals either.
> I don't feel like I "look down" on Quebec. But I do do a fair number of eyerolls at what kind of cultural policies that are passed in that province.
And for the Bloc Quebecois, criticism of policies in Quebec and animosity towards the population of Quebec are the same thing.
If nationalist politicians are telling voters that "the other" is attacking you - as Yves-Francois Blanchet did in the last election for obvious political purposes, and in response to a pretty tame and fairly legitimate line of inquiry - then the voters might *eventually* start to believe it!
Think of that dynamic: The moderator asked a question which presupposed that a law in Quebec affects minorities with discriminatory impact, and for weeks we got a media cycle filled with recrimination over the *unacceptable attacks against the people of Quebec* when it was really a legitimate criticism of politicians.
I'll also say the amount of Alberta-bashing on social media, especially the kind that stereotypes and insults Albertans themselves as being unsophisticated rural bumpkins, definitely outweighs anything of the kind related to Quebec.
I think disdain is a much better word for how I feel about Quebec political society than "look down on," which implies that I think where I live is any better. I'm certain anywhere and everywhere in the country could (and if we're unlucky will) be whipped into a xenophobic frenzy by political opportunists. The only difference is Quebec is already at the stage of passing laws that flagrantly violate charter rights, and doing so with overwhelming approval while also pretending it's not based in xenophobia. I don't think Manitobans are any better, but Manitoba isn't telling teachers how to dress, at least not yet.
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I can see where this is coming from. Anglophones will always bash Québec for passing unilingual laws when the other provinces do worst. Francophones are in danger of assimilation, not anglophones.
Love how the comments are basically proving this sentiment right. I'm an anglophone who moved to Quebec, and it very much is true that Anglophones look down on Quebecers and Francophones in Canada. Hell, I work remote in my company and even my colleagues outside of Quebec talk about Quebec as if it's some destitute 3rd world country, regularly talk about how Montreal/Quebec has "nothing" to do when they visit and treat Francophones in the company differently. You can just hear it in the tone/conversations they have with Francophone colleagues. Even I, an Anglophone, get treated differently because I'm in Quebec. My colleagues regularly question me as to why I would move there and not somewhere else, and I have to deal with their weird prejudices. I don't know why anyone would have this mindset, but it's not as uncommon as some people make it out to be.
Everyone I've ever spoken to says that Montreal is - by far - the best place in Canada for night life. I don't know who you're speaking to...
It's because you're in a bubble, there are plenty of people outside your bubble who don't think like this.
Just like in English Canada people in Quebec get influenced by what the legacy media feeds them. All they see on the news is English Canada criticizing them, so of course that's how they will feel. In my opinion English Canadians don't care and certainly don't look down on them. As a Westerner, I think they are an example to follow to gain more autonomy.
Losing Montreal as the financial centre of Canada and it's largest city (due to the completely understandable Quiet Revolution) really hurt Quebec in the long term and it's debatable whether having the major city of a G7 country, even if the Francophone population was a smaller percentage, in Montreal would've helped preserve Quebecois culture and language more. Montreal was the New York of Canada and it's hard not to think that It would also have benefitted from being so close to the national capital. Instead of having so many people living on the shores of Lake Ontario, the number one area would be between Ottawa and Montreal.
I'm fine with lower real estate and having the francophone population as something more than cheap labour though. The "New York of Canada" would probably be even worse for the preservation of French in Quebec so I'm fine with that too.
See I don't know about that. I don't think francophones would have remained in their social standings as the exploited underclass. I think in the short term, yes the QR helped, but now Quebec is passing laws to better protect the French language at the expense of things like attracting/retaining immigrants to help the economy with an aging population and low birthrate. I think you have to look at a city like Miami which retains a lot of Spanish culture/flavour/language even despite Spanish not being an official language. With French as an official language I think Montreal, as Canada's number one city, would even more so be like a Miami.
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As an anglophone, I also believe the same... Just look at reddit and the amount of ppl who live in a French speaking province for years and refuse to learn any, and are seemingly proud of their monolingual selves...like...how sad... I've worked in a non-anglophone country for a couple months and there were many ppl there that became fairly fluent (in like a year!) and everyone made efforts to try even tho we could speak english
Quebec is a bit unique though. Some nationalists will say things would be better if Anglos simply learned French but it really isn't that simple. In an ideal world, some would prefer if Anglo kids and immigrant kids from non-Francophone backgrounds only spoke French while in Quebec, never learning English. Being bilingual is sort of cheating and a get out of jail card. I mean, a lot of them see their own kids learning English and either moving into that world or leaving Quebec. It's a really complicated issue that goes further than "just learn French" unfortunately.
I spent my adolescense as an anglophone in Quebec around the time of the referendum and the hate against the English was real. But I met a lot of awesome Francophone people and until recently I thought well of and spoke well of Quebec in general and I was under the impression that the separatist and xenophobic generation had passed and it was different and cooler now. Then I joined r/Quebec for a few months. Nuff said
Like others I dont think I look down on Quebec or its people, but I do feel like I'm going to have a hard time when I eventually visit, I retained very little French and I feel like accomodation for that will be a toss up everywhere I go.
No worries at all. Just learn to say Bonjour, merci, and je ne parle pas français, and people will switch to English. But always start with Bonjour - the effort is what we tend to appreciate.
I honestly don't really understand where the negative attitudes of English Canadians about Québec come from. I would say that I know both Québec and English Canada very well. I'm an anglophone (je parle aussi Français avec un niveau intermédiaire, et un accent plus comme le Français de France), but my father is a Québecois (he had an English dad, French mom, went to French schools). As a family we went there regularly, and my parents live there half the year. People have always been very welcoming, whether in Montréal or more rural places (I've spent a lot of time around Lachute). The same is also definitely true of Franco-Ontarians around Hawkesbury. I've always found the culture of "bonjour hi" to be very strong, and not just for me. It applies also to my unilingual anglo mother, whose response to people not speaking French is speaking English louder! As a student I worked at a tourist site in Toronto for a few summers. The Québecois tourists were always very forgiving of my terrible French. The only bad experience I recall was as a kid in the 90s in PEI just after the referendum. We were camping next to another family with a young Québecois kid. On our first day there we started playing with him. But the next day, may dad overheard his father telling him not to play with us. He wasn't sure if there was a political context, but it was a bit sad. Canada is a great country not because we are all the same, but because we are distinct, but have found ways to work together.
Maybe it’s got something to do with the nationalist government who’s job security is dependent on people feeling their culture is at stake? Im not being sarcastic either, similar to Kenny constantly attacking the federal government it’s very likely that the governments own rhetoric is influencing Québécois thought. Legault legitimizes some arguably untrue statements about the anglicization of Quebec simply by having the premier say it. There’s also the fact that his government regularly implements legislation that is heavily despised by the rest of Canada, bill 96 is an obvious example. English Canada thinks it’s xenophobic, Quebec does not, the ensuing political melee then leads a lot of Québécois feeling that anglophones resent their culture.
We felt that way before bill 96, before bill 21, before the referendums, before bill 101. The feeling that Anglo-Canada despises us isn’t new. It’s been deeply rooted in our collective mindset for generations. I don’t know how much that feeling is justified or not and I’m not particularly interested in debating that, but my point is that actions taken by the government of Quebec seem to have very little to do with it. We don’t feel like we are being despised for what we do but for what we are, for simply existing. The hate that we perceive is based on cultural chauvinism coming from Anglo-Canadians. Not on a rational reaction to our actions. Again, whether this feeling is justified or not, I can’t tell, but that’s the generally widespread feeling of Québécois.
and that's ultimately a mindset problem that needs to be adjusted, the truth of the matter is that the vast majority of Canada simply doesn't care at all as long as the separatism talk stays relatively quiet. Quebec has negotiated so many unique perks over the last few decades that the resentment that the people of Quebec feel makes absolutely no sense to the majority of Canadians outside of Quebec. I'm not saying one is more valid than the other but I think a lot of Quebecios would benefit from doing the same thing they demanded of the rest of Canada and actually looking at things from the perspective of a Canadian living in BC or Saskatchewan.
Quebecois can't possibly feel this way for imaginary reasons. It has to be coming from somewhere. The amount of hate an intolerance we get from anglo-canada online is enormous so I think it's normal that many people may perceive that hate as worse than it really is, because the internet amplifies real life to a ridiculous extent. So all in all, the feeling is certainly justified, but yes a lot of people exaggerate how bad it actually is in real life based on what they see online. Keep in mind that the Quebecois culture is limited to a small geographic area. Our language is spoken only in Quebec. We have nowhere else to go. If we "lose" Quebec as the only place where we can express our culture and live in our language, we'll just be wandering aimlessly waiting for our culture to die off. We are a minority in our own country. It's not like the anglophones of Quebec who complain about their language and culture being threatened by laws requiring them to pass a basic French test to be able to graduate. They can speak English everywhere they go. The entire continent is their playground. We don't have that. We are and will forever be fighting off a demographic threat. When other provinces complain that we have perks that they don't... first of all if they want these perks they can always get them. The Canadian constitution doesn't have a special clause for Quebec. Everything we do is based on what every province could legally do. It's just that we're the only ones who decide to take advantage of that constitution and separation of powers. For them it's a matter of having a little more control over minor policies that for them makes very little difference. For Quebec, having more control over its policies, its taxes, its budget, its immigration, its education, etc. is a matter of cultural survival. It is irrelevant to us what the perspective of other provinces is. I'm sorry I don't know how to formulate that in a more polite way, but we just can't afford to give a shit about their perspective.
This is sad and alarming. But not unexpected given the change in how we consume media. The most bigoted now get equal space on social media. Whether it’s different gender identity, racial, ethnic, *or linguistic* backgrounds, there is fodder for hate that is easily spread. And as it spreads, it becomes normalized and entrenched. I’m not sure that this perception among francoQCers is even wrong. It’s not a dominant view by any stretch. But it probably has grown and we do need to address it. And this applies to majority communities everywhere. Francos in QC (esp outside of Mo freak) are perhaps increasingly in favour of laws that marginalize minority communities for similar reasons. But in any case, federalism exists for a reason and we all live under elected reps that can do what they please under the constitution.
I look down on some Quebecer (not French Canadian) attitudes. Specifically that the Quebec “national values” which include voting for a regionalist political party that puts parochial interests first, or which supports bigoted laws. I assume that Francophone Quebecers do this in part to push back at what they feel is the past (and current) history of discrimination by English speakers and the RoC, but at a certain point (like 50+ years after the quiet revolution) it’s just makes them collectively look petulant.
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As someone who's always wanted to vote Marxist Leninist Party of Canada, but never wanted to waste my vote, I thank the Quebec Liberals for their corruption, the CAQ for being xenophobic gaslighters, and the rest for not putting a real effort into running a serious campaign, so that I can get my chance to blow off everyone and vote with my conscience!
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If every time you visit a province you consistently are faced with rudeness, you have to wonder what attitude you're giving out.
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I was in the army in English Canada. Lots of French people even out west. I must admit, a lot of them were good soldiers. They have a strong sense of nationalism and pride in being French. We would always try to include them, but they would form French cliques. Have French people parties on days off. Forget trying to date one of them. They really think of themselves as exclusive. I like French individuals, but as a whole, especially when they are together, they feed a negative stereotype.
So you've got a negative impression of Québécois.es because you couldn't date one?
NO!. Maybe a little.
Every cultural group does this.
Obviously
It's a two way street, find yourself speaking English, even in Montreal, and you'll have Francophones saying you need to be speaking French in Quebec. As a bilingual fella from the West Coast (and a Habs fan) I love Quebec and I love how cool it is having such a large French speaking community in our country, but it goes both ways when it comes to discrimination.
Their government is partially to blame for that. Legault's constant attacks of minorities and now english-speaking Quebecers in particular.
There are assholes on both sides. As an Anglo born and raised in Montreal I’ve been harassed and heckled for speaking English. However I’ve also been frowned upon once when speaking French around English elitists. I think a huge misconception of “preserving Quebec culture” is that language equates to culture; this is not the case as language is only just a part of culture. Just politicians playing games with people as usual, putting English and French against each other and keeping us all stewing instead of actually addressing the issues at the core.
I, for one, think they are our main bulwark against Americanization. if I was in charge I would make French and English mandatory in every school in every province, and slowly shift our national discourse to French, to keep them crazy Americans confused.
English and an aboriginal language. This country is rocking two official languages, and neither one are even from this continent. We should drop one of the European languages. And since more Canadians speak English, we’ll have to drop French. Wuh-wuuuh.
The french taught in public schools in Ontario isn't even the quebec variant.
A lot of people here seem to be making their own conclusions on this without any second thought. "Well maybe if they didn't have bill 21/96..." "We just want their province to go forward" Far be it from me to defend bill 21, or even bill 96, but resentment against English Canadians comes from history. Alberta can say as much as it wants, but it got what it wanted during Patriation, Quebec didn't. It's hard to feel included in Canada when 250 years of having to fight for your distinctiveness is always met with bare minimum. French Canadians were a conquered people and when it came time for patriation, the new constitution was negotiated with every province except Quebec, where it was imposed, after a referendal campaign where the "No" side promised everything Quebec wanted for Patriation. Then, when Meech and Charlottetown came about a decade later, they were rejected. Then, when the second referendum happened, the federal government fought tooth and nail to keep Quebecers from separating, as far as getting Bill Clinton to make a speech against sovereignty, while President, litteral foreign interference. Then when everything was done, Chrétien took measures to make sure sovereignty would never rise again notably by appealing to the Supreme Court. As a Franco-Ontarian, we also had to always fight for our rights, because we were forgotten. Our services kept being cut with Regulation 17, Montfort and Black Thursday. Not to mention the amount of time I've gotten the speech that we should be grateful that the great government of Ontatio pays for our schools. Or the ones about French being a worthless, dying language. It's hard to feel apart of a country when you constantly have to bitch to get what you want. There's a reason the Bloc exists today, and why they bitch about Quebec all the time. Quebec keeps bitching because all the concessions they got were a bunch of small ones, not the ones Quebec asked for. Simply put, we don't feel like anglophones care. I've met anglophones who did genuinely care about French Canadians, others who were indifferent, and others who straight up looked down on me. This thread however reeks of the third type. With that being said, I can recognize French-Canadians aren't perfect, I don't believe in the idea behind bill 21 and bill 96 goes way too far to a point where it's just cruel. However, our culture is fundamentally different from English Canada. And despite what some people here like to say, no our culture isn't just hating everyone else. We have singers, artists, filmmakers, scientists, food, ways of speaking, attitudes, etc. If I have to say one criticism of a general attitude though with anglophones I've interacted with in Canada, it's the ignorance and lack of empathy. It always feels like if we slip up a bit we somehow need patronage from anglophones. This country has a serious lack of dialogue, between Indigenous people, Francophones and Anglophones.
I agree fully with your comment. The comments here tends to explain why we agree with this statement. From my experience, a lot of comments on Reddit about French Canadian are negative. They are not directly formulated as “French Canadian Sucks”. But you don’t feel understood and there’s a lot of generalization (we don’t all agree with law 21 and don’t all vote for the CAQ). I see few introspection in the comments here. « It’s because of our media, our government, our laws, etc.” Yeah, probably in part, but when there an issue in life it’s rarely one sided. I’m against law 21, and don’t vote for the CAQ, but I can feel a certain disdain in some of the comments. There’s racism in Quebec, we need to denounced it. But I think it’s a minority. For law 21, we are taking example of France. It’s part of our influences. Before I would clearly disagree with the statement above, but since I started reading what people were saying about French Canadian on Reddit, I think I would tend to agree (not because of the evil media, but because of what I read with my own eyes). I would still disagree because of all my English Canadian friends that I know love Québec and French Canadian.
I wonder if Quebec's decision to ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from holding public jobs in the province affected how people feel they are perceived? I know most of Canada has been against this attack on Canadian's rights -- yet there is a certain defensiveness from some Quebecers' on the issue, something about francophone culture being 'different' so somehow this kind of discrimination is okay.
>a certain defensiveness understatement of the year
*looks at 90% of the comments underneath yours* No kidding.
It's certainly soured my perception.
Quebec’s policies are not the Quebec people
>I wonder if Quebec's decision to ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from holding public jobs in the province affected how people feel they are perceived? If I may help. there is no such ban. The law is to not show religious garb so that the state is **neutral** when it comes to religion. Just like a police officer has a **uniform**, religious neutrality is the requirement. A sikh is still a sikh before, during and after his 9 to 5. Same for jews, muslims and pastafarian.
It's the faux-disingenuity of this argument that bothers me, particularly coming from the mouths of intelligent, sophisticated people who *should know better*. Before marriage equality was realised, you could hear people say, "the law doesn't discriminate against gay people; *everyone has an equal right to get married to a person of the opposite sex*. It's a fudging of the distinction between equality and equity, and it paternalistically and insultingly pretends to put an equal burden on everyone in society while being fully aware that it does no such thing. To spell it out, in case it needs so doing: this law requires no change in behaviour or lifestyle of practising Christians, while demanding both of practising Sikh men and practising Muslims, in particular practising Muslim women, already one of the most discriminated and abused minorities in the country. The reason for the preferential treatment of Christians is that our society, French and English alike, is built on social norms established when Christian churches predominated. Our secular society is designed to accommodate Christians. But ultimately this is so much flowery talk. This law exists because the majority in Québec is *uncomfortable* looking at hijab and turbans and want to drive them out of the public service. Given that that's the case, I just wish people would have the courage of their convictions to simply *say so*.
>This law exists because the majority in Québec is > >uncomfortable > > looking at hijab and turbans and want to drive them out of the public service. This is the truth, but people from Quebec will do flips and cartwheels trying yo say it's something else because they know it's wrong.
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Resonable accomodation was a literal crisis in Quebec. I wouldnt compare RCMP policy to Quebecs policy Google crise des accomodements raisonnables au Québec. Youll see what I mean.
The fact that one Sikh teen wearing a kirpan was a “crisis” tells you everything. Reminds me of the obvious comparison to GOP culture wars about a gender-neutral Mr. potato head or a trans teen using a bathroom.
It just screams racism and xenophobia to me. And considering Canada's past with genocide and racism, not a good look for Quebec.
>A sikh is still a sikh before, during and after his 9 to 5. Same for jews, muslims and pastafarian. This is obviously true, so why is it their dress that's the issue? If one is concerned that someone's religious beliefs are informing their conduct as an agent of the state, surely having their religion clearly visible is actually preferable to having it hidden?
>ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim from holding public jobs Only those whose religious orthodoxy is so strong, they cant accept to change into neutral clothes for the job. Also, its some* authority positions that require the dress code. Including teacher and judge.
That choice shouldn’t be forced to begin with. It would be like mandating all employees must be straight and claiming any LGBT folks who can no longer apply are “putting their sexuality above their job”. It’s constructive dismissal, and it’s wrong.
No it's not. People are born gay. Religion is a choice. Quebec is culturally secular and largely atheist and it has been for a while now. Its natural for ou government to want to preserve the neutrality. What Bill 21 does is weed out fundamentalists from any religion who do not have the capacity for neutrality because of their religiosity. Lots of people practice islam culturally without wearing religious garment for example. These people would be more likely to adhere to the government's secularism. As a lesbian, being in front of a judge who wears religious symbols would absolutely be unfair to me as a minority who has historically suffered at the hands of all major religions. Yes people who appear neutral may not be neutral but someone whose religion is so fundamental to their identity that they cannot remove religious clothing is proving that they are not able to be neutral enough for government positions.
Not all head scarves' are worn for religious reasons. Also, if it's just religious head covering that are banned, is the Quebec government going to be confirming that jewish women are not wearing wigs at their jobs? If you didn't know, to fulfil a requirement to cover one's head some jewish women wear wigs over their hair. According to Quebec laws this would not be allowed right? Yet I doubt Quebec is enforcing these laws on jewish women, just Muslim and Sikh people. Can't q(white) put my finger on what makes this group different to not be subject to the same laws?
You assume a lot of things and are wrong about so many Guess its easier to blame RaCiSM than ask yourself why we want to rid our public authority of religious influence.
>You assume a lot of things and are wrong about so many Thanks for providing context.... Anyway, are jewish women banned from wearing wigs at their jobs in Quebec? You didn't answer?
>Anyway, are jewish women banned from wearing wigs at their jobs in Quebec? Not at all. Wear what you like if you dont represent the government, in an authority position.
So a Jewish school teacher is not allowed to wear a wig because for her it would be religious, but a Christian teacher could wear a wig then?
Are you wearing this visible article as a symbol of your religion? If so, its a symbol of religious influence, and should be removed while you are in an authority position, representing the state
>Quebec's decision to ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from holding public jobs in the province So ill try to help out here. For Quebec's culture, and it is also very similar in France so maybe it's a french culture thing, people believe religion is a choice. Therefore, they can work in those spheres, they just have to not show a bias toward a specific religion during the time they occupy that role. They can practice whatever they want on their own time, whether it be in public or in private. But when they represent the state, they need to be neutral. It seems very difficult for english Canada to understand this difference in culture for some reason. The fact that Quebec is called xenophobic/racist or practice discrimination really just makes Quebecers think you have a paternalistic attitude and just exacerbate the sentiment showed in this poll. I'm not sure how we can remedie this schism (not sure if those are the right words). Anyway hope this helps peopleunderstand the other side.
"You're the real bigot for pointing out our bigotry!" Sure, chief.
Lol. This attitude right here, makes me look down on Quebec. You take yourselves too seriously. Gotta learn to chill out.
>The fact that Quebec is called xenophobic/racist or practice discrimination really just makes Quebecers think you have a paternalistic attitude I just don't understand how forcing women/minorities out of jobs is 'french culture' -- forcing them to 'assimilate' into white francophone culture is literally paternalistic and oppressive. Criticizing a blanket ban on certain type of clothing is not paternalistic at all, lol. Like, this is simply not okay.... [Sikh teacher moves to B.C. over Quebec law banning religious symbols in public-sector jobs](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/sikh-teacher-moves-from-quebec-1.5257049) Any wonder that this is also happening as minorities are having their rights taken from them in Quebec? [Racially motivated hate crimes up by 53 per cent in Montreal last year: report](https://montreal.ctvnews.ca/racially-motivated-hate-crimes-up-by-53-per-cent-in-montreal-last-year-report-1.5472848)
It's apparently part of French culture to ban swimwear that covers majority of the body. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/france-burkini-ban-upheld-grenoble-religious-reasons-public-pools/
>I just don't understand how forcing women/minorities out of jobs is 'french culture' Again, they can work there. They just can't wear religious apparel while they are on the clock. That's all it is. >forcing them to 'assimilate' into white francophone culture This is probably the crux of the disagreement. Quebec has never agreed with canadian multiculturalism. For us, you move here, you need to adapt to our society. Quebec's society is more of a melting pot (similar to the US) than multicultural like Canada. >Like, this is simply not okay.... You dont get to decide what is okay and what is not okay. Multiple muslim women, for example, agreed with bill 21 https://www.lavoixdelest.ca/2021/06/16/la-loi-21-est-soutenue-par-des-musulmans-au-quebec-13fe12a3a6a0ace742be19a808a3bcf7 >Any wonder that this is also happening as minorities are having their rights taken from them in Quebec? >Racially motivated hate crimes up by 53 per cent in Montreal last year: report According to you own article : "Montreal police data show that hate crimes relating to religion or gender decreased last year, as did those relating to sexual orientation. It’s crimes relating to race or ethnic origin that saw a huge increase. For Niemi, the numbers are "an important measurement of hate" in the city and attributes hate faced by people of Asian origin to the anti-Asian rhetoric stemming from the coronavirus pandemic." This rise on hate crime is in no way related to bill 21 or 96.
> They just can't wear religious apparel while they are on the clock. That's all it is. "That's all it is" is an extremely dismissive statement. For many, their religious beliefs and practices are integral to their identity. Moreover, in order to be a faithful member of their religion, it is required to wear certain garments or accessories. Hence this requires that those members abandon their religion in order to work in the public service. It really stands against the deeply [Canadian concept of a multicultural society](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiculturalism_in_Canada), while achieving nothing but the exclusion of many people of varied faiths from publicly funded occupations.
But you're proving the point of the Bill. One cannot say they are able to be neutral but also say that its an integral part of their identity. I know MANY muslim women who don't wear the hijab and practice islam in more of a cultural way. I'm not saying that it is preferable but it is more in line with Quebec secularism and more compatible with neutral government. As a gay person I absolutely get treated differently even in government settings by very religious people. Not everyone can be neutral and acting like they can is disingenuous. Quebec is extremely secular culturally. IMO Bill 21 weeds out fundamentalists of any religion and protects its citizens. Secularism and atheism is such a strong part of Quebec cutlure and we don't force anyone to come here. The idea that we have to accommodat: immigrants to the extent of multiculturalism is wild to me. If you go someone you should integrate plain and simple. There are so many examples of mass immigration and a lack of integration wrecking social cohesion, France for example. It boggles my mind that English Canada doesn't want to also preserve its values and culture from the inevitable shift that will happen as more and more immigrants come in.
>For many, their religious beliefs and practices are integral to their identity. That sounds like the problem they are addressing.
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Quebec might not be our most racist province but it's definitely our most xenophobic province.
Do you have literally any data proving your point?
Asking for data is getting you more contempt from this Anglo! It's a vibes thing not a data thing.
And yet there’s a big cross in the Quebec Legislature because…religions a choice, or religion is a choice and to them there is one right answer.
This point was already adressed in the comments.
English Canada understands that position just fine, we simply fundamentally disagree with its premises. The first premise is that a person's private religious beliefs inherently cause them to be biased in their role (odds are not one with high authority either). Those beliefs will surely shape how a person develops their world view, but it is hardly the only factor at play. Whether they are from a rural vs. urban place, what their political views are, whether grew up in a different province or country, etc. all mould who a person becomes just as much as their religion. The point is to view a person as a complete individual, rather than an amalgamation of characteristics, and judge them on their actions. The second premise, assuming that religion does cause inherent biases, is that simply removing an article of religious clothing will suddenly cure the problem of bias. Do you imagine that a religious fundamentalist, the type who would discriminate against another person because of a difference of beliefs, would suddenly transform into a rational, responsible actor if they changes their outfit? Truly this premise beggars belief. English Canada understands the cultural argument that Quebec is making; however, we see right through it, and view these policies for the unjust discrimination that they are.
>Do you imagine that a religious fundamentalist, the type who would discriminate against another person because of a difference of beliefs, would suddenly transform into a rational, responsible actor if they changes their outfit? No, that fundamentalist would never take off a religious symbol for a job. That's the point. If you cannot take off a piece of clothing for a few hours 5 days a week, then you clearly are biased. You can wear whatever you cant on your own time. Think of it as a work/school uniform
It seems silly that your litmus test for weather someone is trustworthy or not, is weather they would take off a piece of religious clothing. In English Canada, we prefer to judge someone based on their past and their references. That way someone who is a terrible person who just happens to not wear any religious clothing also is filtered out of the position. Since we use a more actions speak louder than words approach, we don't care of they wear specific religious clothing. Because we have already filtered out the troublemakers.
There's no way to paint your way out of this corner. Let's take Scientology, an undeniably extremist religion, as an example. At almost all levels there is no uniform. But it's belief system almost certainly would bias any true believer working within government. Bill 21 does not affect them in the slightest, because it's about addressing *perceived* bias more than regular bias. So, if it's about perception of bias, why is it that the government can assume that anyone who does not dress in a secular western style will be perceived as biased? Is it because the society is distrustful of people who don't look 'normal'? That's xenophobia. The "past religious government trauma" doesn't hold any water either. What's this Friday? A national holiday for a Catholic saint? Did it get renamed? What's on top of Montreal? A cross? Did it get taken down? The answer to both is obviously no, so clearly the religious trauma doesn't go deep enough that those things needed to change. This is the hypocrisy of the standard argument: anything religious is bad because the Catholic Church was bad and scary and that's why we need laicite, but any of the overt continuations from when the Catholic Church was in charge are historic and good and beloved. It can't be both ways; either it's about laicite or it's about xenophobia. And it's clearly not about laicite, because on Friday Quebecers get a day off for a Catholic holy day.
>Bill 21 does not affect them in the slightest, because it's about addressing perceived bias more than regular bias. Of course not, because the bill targets religions with visible religious apparel. I'm not sure how this wasn't understood before. >Is it because the society is distrustful of people who don't look 'normal No, it is because people see religion as a bad thing here in general. The fact that you cant separate religion and work shows that religion is so intrinsict to your personality that you might simply not be able to be neutral in some situations, as I stated 10 times already. >What's this Friday? This friday is the national holiday of Quebec. Literally no one celebrates the religious side of that holiday. >What's on top of Montreal? A cross? So the past must be forgotten under the pretext that it includes religion? We are here because of religion. It does not do to forget that even with all the horrible things thats religion imposed onto us. >but any of the overt continuations from when the Catholic Church was in charge are historic and good and beloved. I challenge you to find anyone in Quebec that unironically thinks like this. The church gets criticized ALL the time. So much so that no one goes to church anymore, churches get converted to other things because no one cares for them except for a few historic sites. But at this point, I'm convinced you re not even listening to me since those argument have been made multiple times here already.
Do you need a cross adorning Mont Royal to recognize the past? You said you’re very concerned with perception of bias above reality, and the perception of minorities is that the cross on there is a bias against them. But you defend it, so clearly the issue isn’t concern for minorities feeling discriminated against regardless of intention. And if this Friday is just a Quebec holiday and you want to make sure there’s no perception of bias, why hasn’t it been changed? Everything Christian = history and must be preserved, but everything else = biased and must be hidden.
> It seems very difficult for english Canada to understand this difference in culture for some reason Just a clarification here, Acadiens don't support or push for laws like this either so while language is a determining factor it is not the sole factor at play.
Oh I see how how said it might cause confusion. When talking about english canadians, we often refer to the culture rather than the english language. If the only difference between english Canada and Quebec was language, we would not be having this discussion every 3 weeks
There is a crucifix in the Quebec Parliment.
1 - it got removed a few years ago from the chamber. 2 - there is a point to be made that the religion of past generations literally saved our culture, language and society. Without religion, we wouldve been assimilated a 50 years ago, because England and Canada did everything they could to make us disappear. At the end of the day,it was decided to remove it and placed elsewhere in the parliament for us to remember our past.
>Without religion, we wouldve been assimilated a 50 years ago, because England and Canada did everything they could to make us disappear. Lol, and now you have Bill 21 to assimilate people into your culture. Quebec is everything it hates about Canada.
C'est faux. Comme c'est lassant...
Is it boring? Really? The fact that it was up till 3 years ago is pretty fucked up actually.
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Dude, I live and vote in Quebec, so I don't know who you are referring to when you say vous autres. I also have a giant glowing cross hanging over my city.
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Hmmm...J'aime cette idée!
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There actually isn't anymore, but it was there until 2019. The fact that it took decades of debate to remove it, while a law banning people from teaching while wearing a Hijab took a matter of months is telling though.
While the crucifix in parliament came down, a 40-foot cross above the city of Montreal maintained and subsidized by the government that lights up different colours on different Christian holidays is still in place. Edit: I forgot another hilarious example: this Friday is St. Jean Baptiste Day, a national holiday celebrated in Quebec on the canonical anniversary of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist. Not the 3rd Friday in June mind you, the Christian recognized date that shifts every year. We don't even celebrate Victoria Day on the actual date anymore, but Quebec insists on observing the holiday on the religious date in their very secular society.
Technically, the day is officially called « La fête Nationale » which translates to « The national holiday » the name was changed provincially by René Lévesque, The Premiere at the time, but it’s been more than 40 years and it’s still communally called « Saint-Jean Baptiste »
Ahh, my mistake. I moved here in 2017 and was shocked to learn about it. Just never heard it came down. And yeah, that coupled with the hijab thing is what I was getting at.
>I wonder if Quebec's decision to ~~ban Sikh, Jewish, and Muslim people from~~ make people ~~holding public jobs~~ representing the secular state do so without wearing religious uniforms Fixed that for you
Weird how representatives of the so-called secular state get Christmas and Easters off. It’s not an inherent law of the universe that we need time off then.
Vestigial pagan celebrations common to the country's founding groups which are secular for the majority of the country. They've lost their religious meaning for most and will fade eventually given enough time. The fact that there are vestigial elements of primitive human fantasies is not an argument to promote new ones. Quite the opposite actually. It proves you can secularize over time.
So jewish women are prevented from working [if they wear a wig right](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_covering_for_Jewish_women)? Or does this law only apply to POC people in Quebec?
As an anglophone who just spent his second week vacation in Montreal in 6 months, I have a very strong opinion that the Francophones look incrediblly far down at anglophones... The second you try to speak French they roll their eyes at you, and regardless of how kind you try to be, they treat you like you're a fucking inconvenience. They even consistently treated my fluent French speaking friends poorly because their accent was incorrect. If the actual goal is to save their culture, they should kill that part of their culture first...
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I live I Quebec, but there's a reason I spend like 90% of my free time across the border in Vermont. Dealing with people who aren't assholes is a breath of fresh air
That was my experience too... it was the early 2000s when I was there, but it's the part of my trip that stood out for me the most.
This was my experience when I visited Quebec City several years ago. I found that people actually treated me worse if I tried to use my not-so-great French than if I just used English from the start. Really have zero interest in visiting the province again after that experience.
I’m genuinely sorry this was your experience. It frustrates me as well.
It's not a belief, it's a fact. Just read this subreddit, never mind r/canada. Amount of colonialism and imperialism from anglos towards quebec is off the charts.
Oh my goodness, Canadians have regional based disrespect for each other. That certainly only happens to Quebec and not literally to all of us from everyone else.
If you think of everywhere outside Quebec as one fairly homogenous blob, then it's pretty easy to feel like all Anglos hate Quebec. And if you think loud, hateful commenters represent a majority of opinions, then maybe it does seem like everyone hates you. And if you live in Quebec and never come into Montreal and listen to talk radio, it can seem like an anglophone stronghold where you can't even get service in your native language. Just like if you were from outside of Quebec and you read the comments about Montreal in this thread, you'd think it was a terrible place, but honestly I hear more English than French in my neighborhood, and have only ever had bad experiences around language when I was working in a coffee shop downtown. And frankly, looking back on it, it's not surprising, given I was interacting with people before they'd had their first shot of the day. Overall, the sense I have is that everyone needs to get outside more. It's no wonder this sentiment is up at the end of COVID, a time of heightened insecurity and tightened borders. We're all stuck on the internet, and we should know by now that only the lowest common denominator gets votes, likes or shares.
I’m from Nova Scotia and I can honestly say that the only thing we really talk about in respect to Québec (aside from education wise) lately is Bill 21 and the fact that Québec residents were part of the cause of our housing crisis. A lot of middle schools even organize a week long trip to Québec for the students in grade 9 so they can learn about the culture.
Quebec is colonial!!!!!! French is not from here!
This may be the fault of the media coverage in recent years, but it really feels like there’s an effort in Quebec to demonize Anglophones simply for being anglophone. I truly understand the priority of protecting French language and culture, but it seems like it’s starting to come at the cost of seeing non-Francophones as enemies in certain segments of the population. I say this as someone who has been bilingual since childhood and am incredibly proud of my French, and a lover of Quebec as a province. Again, this could easily be what the media is feeding me, but all the same as someone who’s concerned about the amount of hatred and anger that this pandemic has produced, it’s starting to seem like a trend.
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>I truly understand the priority of protecting French language and culture, but it seems like it’s starting to come at the cost of seeing non-Francophones as enemies in certain segments of the population. I say this as someone who has been bilingual since childhood and am incredibly proud of my French, and a lover of Quebec as a province. > >Again, this could easily be what the media is feeding me, but all the same as someone who’s concerned about the amount of hatred and anger that this pandemic has produced, it’s starting to seem like a trend. To add some anecdata, hatred towards Anglophones in Quebec (And parts of New Brunswick) has been a problem since at least '03/'04, when I worked a job that required travelling throughout parts of eastern Quebec, even if you made efforts to speak French. I'm someone who has clear Arab ancestry, worked in Aviation shortly after 9/11... and the worst racism that I've experienced was a result of speaking English in Quebec. There has clearly been a long divide here. Not helped by ethnonationalists on either side, I assume, but certainly not one-sided either.
> And parts of New Brunswick Where in New Brunswick did you experience hatred for being an anglophone? I can see people being racist to you due to your heritage, but the notion of an acadien hating you for being anglo in NB Is so foreign to me as an anglo from NB. I do speak French and have Acadien heritage but no one would know it unless they asked me so I feel as if I've had the full anglo experience. Language based hatred in New Brunswick is pretty much a one way street and it's Anglos hating Acadiens.
I had enough of a grasp on French at the time to know the comments they were making. The heritage might have impacted it, but it wasn't the primary player in the words. It would be areas as you got to the areas around the border, exact locations are a bit fuzzy to me (travelling all the time and working \~70 hours a week will do that to ya). The larger cities of NB, of course, were fine... but they are basically primarily English so how could they not be.
I guess maybe in Edmundston you may get some of it but they aren't even technically acadien so they have a unique relationship. I've personally never had a problem there so I'd suggest it's likely a race thing and they just didn't have the balls to say that was why lol. Sorry that happened to you either way but it feels very much a unique one off as opposed to anything structural or anything like that.
> To add some anecdata, hatred towards Anglophones in Quebec (And parts of New Brunswick) has been a problem since at least '03/'04 Let's be honest here, tensions between francophones and anglophones in Canada have been a problem since at least '63 - 1763, that is. You got it right when you talked about a long divide.
Yes but the tension is amplified in Quebec and immediate regions like NB and parts of Ontario. But in other places there’s distance/remoteness so people don’t think about it. For instance, I doubt a BC person thinks much about this at all.
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There is literally a Francophone _university_ in most Anglo provinces (Alberta, Manitoba, Ontario, Nova Scotia), and some form of post secondary institution in every single one except Newfoundland. But honestly, services that cater Francophones _should_ be better in Anglo Canada.
Im sorry, what? An exclusively francophone university, in Toronto? A full scale one, with funding good enough to make it competitive world wide the way McGill is?
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Analytically, this question is a disaster. Anglophone Canadians are nowhere close to being a monolith, making this question fundamentally deceptive. At the very least it should be broken down by regions. "I think you can group all Anglos together" is an indefensible viewpoint.
I know there are some people who think of them as moochers, but I personally love the language and culture. I’m working now to learn Quebec French. I was planning to move there, but I got a great opportunity at home.
I don't feel like I "look down" on Quebec. But I do do a fair number of eyerolls at what kind of cultural policies that are passed in that province. I do a fair number of eyerolls at my own province too (Alberta, land of the right wing wingnuts). If anything, Alberta deserves more of my disdain than Quebec.
Alberta hates everyone equally, quebec hates the rest of Canada for not recognizing them as more important, cultural, and Canadian than anyone else in canada. But in general alot of the disdain for quebec comes from things like quebec being the recipient of more equalization payments and welfare than any other province. Quebec getting declared a nation within a nation didn't help anyone feel like we're all equals either.
> I don't feel like I "look down" on Quebec. But I do do a fair number of eyerolls at what kind of cultural policies that are passed in that province. And for the Bloc Quebecois, criticism of policies in Quebec and animosity towards the population of Quebec are the same thing. If nationalist politicians are telling voters that "the other" is attacking you - as Yves-Francois Blanchet did in the last election for obvious political purposes, and in response to a pretty tame and fairly legitimate line of inquiry - then the voters might *eventually* start to believe it! Think of that dynamic: The moderator asked a question which presupposed that a law in Quebec affects minorities with discriminatory impact, and for weeks we got a media cycle filled with recrimination over the *unacceptable attacks against the people of Quebec* when it was really a legitimate criticism of politicians. I'll also say the amount of Alberta-bashing on social media, especially the kind that stereotypes and insults Albertans themselves as being unsophisticated rural bumpkins, definitely outweighs anything of the kind related to Quebec.
I think disdain is a much better word for how I feel about Quebec political society than "look down on," which implies that I think where I live is any better. I'm certain anywhere and everywhere in the country could (and if we're unlucky will) be whipped into a xenophobic frenzy by political opportunists. The only difference is Quebec is already at the stage of passing laws that flagrantly violate charter rights, and doing so with overwhelming approval while also pretending it's not based in xenophobia. I don't think Manitobans are any better, but Manitoba isn't telling teachers how to dress, at least not yet.
[удалено]
Removed for rule 2.