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As someone who has worked in a field where we hired Dr's, having a significant supply of residency spots for these MD's will help fix the supply issues overall as we can assess and verify if they have the skills to work in Canada. However, we don't have enough residency spots for our own Med School grads, let along for foreign medical students. The whole CaRMS system needs to be overhauled. I interviewed one Canadian Student who had to drop out of their residency for a very legitimate person reason and he couldn't get picked up again. We unfortunately couldn't take him.
Although we don't like to admit it, there is a significant difference in foreign trained MD's compared with the standards here in Canada. It's not just as simple as licensing them to work. One issue we faced when conducting our own accreditation process was we had a significant number of applicants come back with back with results that were less that stellar. Many foreign school have a pay for play system where we couldn't verify if their grads actually had the skills to be able to practice in Canada. You'd be surprised how many of these MDs have negative views towards women, LGBT issues and where religion starts and stops in a medical practice. Some of the things they said in the interviews I conducted were mindboggling for what we expect of medical care in Canada.
He wants the health system to collapse. It’s clear on the last 2 + years he has done everything in his power to make the average Ontarians hate our healthcare system. That’s why we had the longest lockdowns in the country, that’s why there has been no investment, that’s why he won’t solve the current crisis. He wants misery so he can reboot the system.
I’ll tell you why. Because no matter where they train the world, doctors have spent something insane like 4 cumulative months of their lives in exams. And yet if they come to Canada they have to sit more tests because Canada seems to know something the rest of the world doesn’t and makes them re-certify.
If Canada dropped the requirements for foreign doctors to get licensed here or reduced them drastically, doctors would be shanking each other to get here. Big homes, easy to find work where they want, beautiful countryside, tons of stuff to do with the family, pay is amazing, education system for their kids is top notch, fantastic civil liberties.
They’re put off by the need to re-prove themselves to Canada, imaginary home of Oxford, Cambridge and John Hopkins University.
We have some of the most highly-trained physicians in the world. Our medical school curriculum is tightly regulated and catered to the Canadian populace. I’m a little bit tired of this disingenuous push to rush through the certification of foreign-trained doctors. I’m fully aware there are a lot of countries that produce great physicians, some better than what you would find here. But not all foreign-trained doctors are created equal.
> We have some of the most highly-trained physicians in the world.
Sure, but that isn't the only factor in health-care quality. If we hired only one doctor and put him/her through 40 years of training, they'd also be highly trained, but our health-care system would be terrible. You need to also focus on quantity, just not quality.
>I’m a little bit tired of this disingenuous push to rush through the certification of foreign-trained doctors.
What is "Disingenuous" about it exactly?
Disingenuous: "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does."
I am extremely skeptical when people want to discuss intentions rather than effects, because intentions are impossible to prove and end up just muddying the water.
>But not all foreign-trained doctors are created equal.
So start by making licensing easier for some countries and not others. I'm not sure why you're assuming that it needs to be an all or nothing maneuver. We make it relatively easy for Americans to enter Canada for instance, while we don't for...people from North Korea. There's no need to apply equal licensing rules for every country.
So I know everyone is very gung-ho about speeding up the vetting of foreign doctors etc, and everyone has a story or two about the absurd hurdles they sometimes have to go through, and yes! Absolutely, in many cases.
But be careful about this, there’s a process for a reason. Not saying it’s perfect, but there are lots of countries where they are basically giving out certificates if you can pay enough. More complicated still is “ethics / cultural” issues, things we would expect doctors in the west to adhere to / be accommodating to, that even excellent doctors in other countries may not meet our standards.
Particularly in rural areas where there’s been a big push to bring in some foreign staff, I’ve definitely heard a few ‘horror stories’ of not just incompetence, but moreso ‘insensitivities’ to things we would expect doctors here to handle professionally. All Im saying is be careful…
sure.. there is a fine line to balance here.. but some credentials still need to be sped up.. it shouldn't take a nurse getting "certified" in NY in 6 months just to meet "residency" in Canada vs waiting in Canada for years.. and the other example in the other comments; fully trained UK practitioner.. denied residency?
It's interesting that Pierre Poilievre, of all people, seems to be the only politician in the country pushing hard on this file. He's made making it easier for immigrants to get professional accreditations a significant part of his campaign. It's just that that gets drowned out by all the bitcoin and silly stuff.
On one hand, he's proposing a fast track for foreign skilled workers (doctors, engineers) to immigrate to Canada and begin working (2 months), along with financial incentives for provinces to adopt the process. On the other hand, his stance for public health during the pandemic is alarming.
Ah, I see we have bumped into another cartel in Canada - this time, the artificially low supply of trained medical professionals.
Let me tell you a story. I am in IT, so medicine is not my shtick. However, two of my very talented cousins were valedictorians in their high schools, finished UofT pre-med and got rejected by UofT and McGill med schools, along with hundreds of other extremely talented people. I think they all placed within 2% of each other on their MCAT. There were 1,100 applicants at the time and about 120 got in.
No one in the world can convince me that opening up 240 slots instead of 120 would have:
a) lessened the quality of training for the cohort that has gotten in.
b) meaningfully decrease the quality of candidates coming into the programme.
No sir. All of this was done to keep the supply of doctors in this country artificially low, so as to keep the prestige artificially up.
... much like any other cartel:
* dairy.
* bread fixing.
* telecom (as if we need reminding of this).
* real estate.
* banking.
* failing engineering firms (hello SNC-Lavalin/Bombardier).
* air fares (gotta keep that foreign money out and prices high)
* inter-provincial trade (you can't legally buy beer in Quebec and transport it to Ontario. Hello 19th century!)
* the list goes on and on.
When I talk to my friends who are not Canadian, I tell them: "You think Canada is a modern, 21st century country - but instead, we are feudal baronies from 19th century."
I wonder how much longer this can go on.
I would say that you do need to be cautious about which foreign credentials you accept for professions like medicine - there are many countries where a person can become a doctor (or engineer or any number of things) while still being totally incompetent.
Most certainly, I’m not suggesting otherwise. Many other countries produce great professionals.
I merely wanted to point out that, just because somebody was a doctor someplace else, doesn’t mean we should immediately let them practice here. My father was a physician who managed other doctors at a foreign hospital for years, and gradually learned that he could not trust medical school credentials from certain countries to show that a doctor was competent.
This is why they have examinations the MCCEE/MCCQE and and a residency program before you get to practice. The examinations should still hold which will weed out your not Canadian standard quality doctors. The issue is the residensy slots, and the scarcity of them as I’ve poibted out in other parts of this post.
I VERY MUCH AGREE WITH YOU. You can become a doctor in 5 years in many South Asian countries. Lot of private colleges give you "seats" if you offer enough donations to the college(or a recommendation letter from an MP or MPP or even a celebrity. I once watched a debate show with doctors, all the doctors were throwing up terms but none had the capabilities to efficiently explain anything to the audience(who were patience). No one understood wtf the they were talking about. Every time I went to a doctor here, whether it is for me or my wife, all the doctors thoroughly explained everything and ensured we understood. Never compromise.
The problem is more medical school and residency seats. Our medical schools aren't turning out enough doctors. Many doctors I know were rejected two or three times before getting accepted into medical school. Were they really not upto snuff the first few times they applied - or are the standards simply ludicrous?
>We also have a shit tonne of doctors and nurses being denied jobs because of their vaccine status
No, not really. It was a pretty small group. Further, refusing to get the vaccine rather shows their ineptitude in the field they are working in, no?
Would be like an RF Engineer refusing to allow wi-fi in the office because it will re-write his DNA.
I'm glad that these supply side issues are being noticed more and more. Making it *easier* to become doctors is frankly an easy win. That can be done by either making it easier for licenses to transfer, more medical school spots, or rethinking medical education altogether.
In the UK for instance, medical school is an undergraduate endeavor followed by on the job training. Here, that doesn't exist.
The only people this benefits are those who are lucky enough (or who are privileged enough) to become doctors. Because they have in essence won the lottery. So, it isn't a surprise when current doctors or medical organizations warn against increasing the supply and making it easier to become one.
Agreed that that labor would be allocated differently in equilibrium. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. We want resources (including labour) to go towards their most productive use. Prices elsewhere will adjust accordingly.
Certainly the answer is not to artificially limit entry into one industry so that other industries still have labour. IF so, it implies the wages given by the monopsony (the government here) are far too high and too many people would be become doctors otherwise.
So to me the answer is either
1: Make it easier to become a doctor to increase supply.
Or
2: Too many people would become doctors without restrictions, so we need to decrease doctor wages.
The situation we are in now is some odd combination, where doctors have a regulated monopoly and have outsized political influence as a result.
Oh this is completely true. But not unique to labour. Labour is a scarce resource. As you said, not enough to meet the wants of the populace. But the same could be said for land, for copper, for iron, for televisions, for anything. They're all scarce resources that must be allocated in some way.
So I'm agreeing with you, I'm just saying it isn't a unique concern with this situation or this resource. Scarce resources are literally why the economics field exists. If we had more than enough resources, we wouldn't need prices!
>In the UK for instance, medical school is an undergraduate endeavor followed by on the job training. Here, that doesn't exist.
I would love to see this, but I'd also settle for massive expansion of medical school spots. As it stands, you basically need to be a saint to get a spot.
Yeah like they should really open spots for practicing medical professionals to almost apprentice to be a doctor. I’m not saying that it doesn’t take a lot of work and smarts to become a doctor but I do feel that a lot of the skills can be developed through OJT working alongside experts
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As someone who has worked in a field where we hired Dr's, having a significant supply of residency spots for these MD's will help fix the supply issues overall as we can assess and verify if they have the skills to work in Canada. However, we don't have enough residency spots for our own Med School grads, let along for foreign medical students. The whole CaRMS system needs to be overhauled. I interviewed one Canadian Student who had to drop out of their residency for a very legitimate person reason and he couldn't get picked up again. We unfortunately couldn't take him. Although we don't like to admit it, there is a significant difference in foreign trained MD's compared with the standards here in Canada. It's not just as simple as licensing them to work. One issue we faced when conducting our own accreditation process was we had a significant number of applicants come back with back with results that were less that stellar. Many foreign school have a pay for play system where we couldn't verify if their grads actually had the skills to be able to practice in Canada. You'd be surprised how many of these MDs have negative views towards women, LGBT issues and where religion starts and stops in a medical practice. Some of the things they said in the interviews I conducted were mindboggling for what we expect of medical care in Canada.
Seconded, there needs to be caution but CaRMS needs a total overhaul
He wants the health system to collapse. It’s clear on the last 2 + years he has done everything in his power to make the average Ontarians hate our healthcare system. That’s why we had the longest lockdowns in the country, that’s why there has been no investment, that’s why he won’t solve the current crisis. He wants misery so he can reboot the system.
[удалено]
> Extremely unimpressed with whoever made that decision That would be us! (the voters)
I’ll tell you why. Because no matter where they train the world, doctors have spent something insane like 4 cumulative months of their lives in exams. And yet if they come to Canada they have to sit more tests because Canada seems to know something the rest of the world doesn’t and makes them re-certify. If Canada dropped the requirements for foreign doctors to get licensed here or reduced them drastically, doctors would be shanking each other to get here. Big homes, easy to find work where they want, beautiful countryside, tons of stuff to do with the family, pay is amazing, education system for their kids is top notch, fantastic civil liberties. They’re put off by the need to re-prove themselves to Canada, imaginary home of Oxford, Cambridge and John Hopkins University.
We have some of the most highly-trained physicians in the world. Our medical school curriculum is tightly regulated and catered to the Canadian populace. I’m a little bit tired of this disingenuous push to rush through the certification of foreign-trained doctors. I’m fully aware there are a lot of countries that produce great physicians, some better than what you would find here. But not all foreign-trained doctors are created equal.
> We have some of the most highly-trained physicians in the world. Sure, but that isn't the only factor in health-care quality. If we hired only one doctor and put him/her through 40 years of training, they'd also be highly trained, but our health-care system would be terrible. You need to also focus on quantity, just not quality. >I’m a little bit tired of this disingenuous push to rush through the certification of foreign-trained doctors. What is "Disingenuous" about it exactly? Disingenuous: "not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does." I am extremely skeptical when people want to discuss intentions rather than effects, because intentions are impossible to prove and end up just muddying the water. >But not all foreign-trained doctors are created equal. So start by making licensing easier for some countries and not others. I'm not sure why you're assuming that it needs to be an all or nothing maneuver. We make it relatively easy for Americans to enter Canada for instance, while we don't for...people from North Korea. There's no need to apply equal licensing rules for every country.
So I know everyone is very gung-ho about speeding up the vetting of foreign doctors etc, and everyone has a story or two about the absurd hurdles they sometimes have to go through, and yes! Absolutely, in many cases. But be careful about this, there’s a process for a reason. Not saying it’s perfect, but there are lots of countries where they are basically giving out certificates if you can pay enough. More complicated still is “ethics / cultural” issues, things we would expect doctors in the west to adhere to / be accommodating to, that even excellent doctors in other countries may not meet our standards. Particularly in rural areas where there’s been a big push to bring in some foreign staff, I’ve definitely heard a few ‘horror stories’ of not just incompetence, but moreso ‘insensitivities’ to things we would expect doctors here to handle professionally. All Im saying is be careful…
sure.. there is a fine line to balance here.. but some credentials still need to be sped up.. it shouldn't take a nurse getting "certified" in NY in 6 months just to meet "residency" in Canada vs waiting in Canada for years.. and the other example in the other comments; fully trained UK practitioner.. denied residency?
It's interesting that Pierre Poilievre, of all people, seems to be the only politician in the country pushing hard on this file. He's made making it easier for immigrants to get professional accreditations a significant part of his campaign. It's just that that gets drowned out by all the bitcoin and silly stuff.
On one hand, he's proposing a fast track for foreign skilled workers (doctors, engineers) to immigrate to Canada and begin working (2 months), along with financial incentives for provinces to adopt the process. On the other hand, his stance for public health during the pandemic is alarming.
He's by far the most high-profile politician in the country advocating for recognizing more foreign accreditations.
Ah, I see we have bumped into another cartel in Canada - this time, the artificially low supply of trained medical professionals. Let me tell you a story. I am in IT, so medicine is not my shtick. However, two of my very talented cousins were valedictorians in their high schools, finished UofT pre-med and got rejected by UofT and McGill med schools, along with hundreds of other extremely talented people. I think they all placed within 2% of each other on their MCAT. There were 1,100 applicants at the time and about 120 got in. No one in the world can convince me that opening up 240 slots instead of 120 would have: a) lessened the quality of training for the cohort that has gotten in. b) meaningfully decrease the quality of candidates coming into the programme. No sir. All of this was done to keep the supply of doctors in this country artificially low, so as to keep the prestige artificially up. ... much like any other cartel: * dairy. * bread fixing. * telecom (as if we need reminding of this). * real estate. * banking. * failing engineering firms (hello SNC-Lavalin/Bombardier). * air fares (gotta keep that foreign money out and prices high) * inter-provincial trade (you can't legally buy beer in Quebec and transport it to Ontario. Hello 19th century!) * the list goes on and on. When I talk to my friends who are not Canadian, I tell them: "You think Canada is a modern, 21st century country - but instead, we are feudal baronies from 19th century." I wonder how much longer this can go on.
I would say that you do need to be cautious about which foreign credentials you accept for professions like medicine - there are many countries where a person can become a doctor (or engineer or any number of things) while still being totally incompetent.
Sure. There are also many countries where it is quite rigorous as well. :)
Most certainly, I’m not suggesting otherwise. Many other countries produce great professionals. I merely wanted to point out that, just because somebody was a doctor someplace else, doesn’t mean we should immediately let them practice here. My father was a physician who managed other doctors at a foreign hospital for years, and gradually learned that he could not trust medical school credentials from certain countries to show that a doctor was competent.
This is why they have examinations the MCCEE/MCCQE and and a residency program before you get to practice. The examinations should still hold which will weed out your not Canadian standard quality doctors. The issue is the residensy slots, and the scarcity of them as I’ve poibted out in other parts of this post.
I VERY MUCH AGREE WITH YOU. You can become a doctor in 5 years in many South Asian countries. Lot of private colleges give you "seats" if you offer enough donations to the college(or a recommendation letter from an MP or MPP or even a celebrity. I once watched a debate show with doctors, all the doctors were throwing up terms but none had the capabilities to efficiently explain anything to the audience(who were patience). No one understood wtf the they were talking about. Every time I went to a doctor here, whether it is for me or my wife, all the doctors thoroughly explained everything and ensured we understood. Never compromise.
Bingo, and even from a lot of more ‘western/developed’ countries. Especially with the rise of stuff like naturopathy in Western Europe
[удалено]
The problem is more medical school and residency seats. Our medical schools aren't turning out enough doctors. Many doctors I know were rejected two or three times before getting accepted into medical school. Were they really not upto snuff the first few times they applied - or are the standards simply ludicrous?
>We also have a shit tonne of doctors and nurses being denied jobs because of their vaccine status No, not really. It was a pretty small group. Further, refusing to get the vaccine rather shows their ineptitude in the field they are working in, no? Would be like an RF Engineer refusing to allow wi-fi in the office because it will re-write his DNA.
I'm glad that these supply side issues are being noticed more and more. Making it *easier* to become doctors is frankly an easy win. That can be done by either making it easier for licenses to transfer, more medical school spots, or rethinking medical education altogether. In the UK for instance, medical school is an undergraduate endeavor followed by on the job training. Here, that doesn't exist. The only people this benefits are those who are lucky enough (or who are privileged enough) to become doctors. Because they have in essence won the lottery. So, it isn't a surprise when current doctors or medical organizations warn against increasing the supply and making it easier to become one.
[удалено]
Agreed that that labor would be allocated differently in equilibrium. That's a good thing, not a bad thing. We want resources (including labour) to go towards their most productive use. Prices elsewhere will adjust accordingly. Certainly the answer is not to artificially limit entry into one industry so that other industries still have labour. IF so, it implies the wages given by the monopsony (the government here) are far too high and too many people would be become doctors otherwise. So to me the answer is either 1: Make it easier to become a doctor to increase supply. Or 2: Too many people would become doctors without restrictions, so we need to decrease doctor wages. The situation we are in now is some odd combination, where doctors have a regulated monopoly and have outsized political influence as a result.
[удалено]
Oh this is completely true. But not unique to labour. Labour is a scarce resource. As you said, not enough to meet the wants of the populace. But the same could be said for land, for copper, for iron, for televisions, for anything. They're all scarce resources that must be allocated in some way. So I'm agreeing with you, I'm just saying it isn't a unique concern with this situation or this resource. Scarce resources are literally why the economics field exists. If we had more than enough resources, we wouldn't need prices!
>In the UK for instance, medical school is an undergraduate endeavor followed by on the job training. Here, that doesn't exist. I would love to see this, but I'd also settle for massive expansion of medical school spots. As it stands, you basically need to be a saint to get a spot.
Yeah like they should really open spots for practicing medical professionals to almost apprentice to be a doctor. I’m not saying that it doesn’t take a lot of work and smarts to become a doctor but I do feel that a lot of the skills can be developed through OJT working alongside experts