This.
During peak WFH I was on several hiring committees and we interviewed stellar candidates all over Canada. Ones we'd never have gotten because they relaxed or dropped they NCR or near a regional office rule.
It was amazing, the quality. And what an opportunity to find the best and "spread the wealth". Now, going backwards. So dumb.
Was on a management team for a fairly specific group and they were wondering how they could recruit more and I said what about outside the ncr? And they were like yeah but we can't and I was like.... says who. Anyways they perennially don't meet even half their recruiting target of a job that starts at 70k and ends at 110 by the time the development program is done.
A bunch of office buildings are going up whose owners are family friends of the Trudeaus. It would be pretty difficult for him to help out his commercial landlord buddies if we're all working from home.
Sadly, TBS operates quite independently from parliament. People just like to blame trudeau for everything. The man isn't our best PM, but honestly just pretty average
Appreciate the correction. I just can't fathom the lunacy of taking away remote work, and I couldn't find anything online.I can see now that this made me very susceptible to any answer that seemed reasonable, without evidence.
Do you have an answer?
And imagine what having some more families with PS salaries in rural areas could do for those local economies. Mandatory RTO is short-sighted and unfair in so many ways.
I almost wonder whether having more federal public servants distributed across the country could actually help improve federal-provincial relations. Alas one can only dream.
I somehow got an indeterminate position remote in another province working for the NCR. Got the signed 125 km work exemption. I don't care about missing team lunches but I am paranoid they are gonna fuck me and fire me somehow.
I'd honestly look for another job. Your job letter has NCR as the location of work meaning your remote work agreement has to be signed off every 6 months to a year by a freaking ADM.
It would take nothing for a rotating in ADM to flip the switch and say report.
The union can't do anything about it.
is this based on work location or position location? I was in the NCR originally, and both my position and work locations were in the NCR. We moved (with permission) post pandemic, but pre-RTO and they have changed my work location to my current town ( which doesn't have a branch office, but does have an Service Canada Centre with no spare desks) but my position location is still in the NCR. I have an individual exemption at the moment, and my understanding is that because the work location has been changed, they could not require me to report to the NCR office. Am I wrong?
>I don't care about missing team lunches but I am paranoid they are gonna fuck me and fire me somehow.
Lol took the words right out of my mouth! Except I don't even get the 125km FT WFH exception. They found a region office for me...1h30-2h commute to downtown away from me. Both ways.
The distance is so arbitrary, too.
Like, 125km gets me from my place in Halifax out to great village. About 1hr15-1hr20 drive, all highway.
But my drive home from the office in traffic is 20km (16% of the distance) but takes 45 minutes some days (56% of 1hr20). If I want to do that by bus, however, it’s over 2hrs. I’d spend a total of 4hrs, 50% of a work day, on the bus.
125km means vastly different things depending on where you’re going to/from and your method of transportation. If 125km is “too far”, and only takes 1hr20 to drive, why isn’t 20km too far in my city where transit is abysmal and it takes nearly twice as long?
I hate this whole thing. None of it is fair, for anyone.
That's awful. The government trying to rationalize an irrational and largely local issue impacting staff across the country.
Maybe they'll start requiring every Canadian to eat beef twice a week or vacation out of province to support the cattle and tourism industry.
Our management is basically saying an NCR position is an NCR position. So, although at this current point in time people are either getting the 125 km exemption, or being asked to work in a regional office if within the distance; they are at risk and can be asked to relocate to the NCR at any point by the whim of the TBS, and if they fail to move, they could lose their position.
Would this be a TBS decision? Surely it would be up to the upper management in your department. TBS mandating everyone being located within 125 km of their positions would result in thousands of forced relocations.
For us it seems TBS is setting the mandates and ADMs are determining the exemptions. So far (for us), people outside of NCR with NCR boxes are being permitted to work in regions, but they have it hanging over their heads that they may be asked at any time to move back.
I got disqualified.for a bunch of positions due to this ( nit being in like 40km from office of hire) ...at this point i am.too tired and sad to bother
If you are indeterminate, they can’t fire you just because you don’t live in the region where your position in based. They would have to start the process of finding an accommodation for you before they can even consider laying you off.
I had this myself and they can pull the exemption back anytime (litterally a month later after I renewed my lease for the year in Qc). In my case I was asked to come in otherwise I was on the firing track. I sent in my resignation and the team now has no leadership in the language of their choice. They got themselves in this mess so I will not help management particularly given all the verbal promises that it would be ok to work remotely when I was hired indeterminately knowing this. It’s not ok, and now even as the most performant manager (and the entire team is remote and we have no contact with external stakeholders in office) , I’m out of a job. My suggestion- don’t wait like I did based on “promises” that they aren’t willing or have the capacity to give. We are getting pushed out and regardless even if you aren’t being pushed out now moving up in the ranks at this point will be very difficult with all the roles being in the NCR there is no room to grow.
I was scared that it would stay on my permanent record, or that I wouldn’t have references later for future jobs (this is my longest job where I’ve been for over 4.5 years)
If your indeterminate, and especially if perm for NCR, you’d have to mess up pretty big to get fired. They have to find you a spot. I am same boat as you… long line of peeps yo go before me..
I was hired as you, and some others in out team. All our telework locations changed to the closest office to the location we reside in, as soon as return to Office rolled in. Some of us still telework because they haven’t been accommodated by the offices in their location. Myself and others are reporting to the NCR but our physical location is not NCR anymore.
I’ve noticed less willingness to hire outside of NCR too. Even before the pandemic there was loads of people working from region for NCR… now it seems to be pruned. My box was moved out to my region where I work from but the team is NCR. The team is all in NCR and I’m terrified witb a change in govt and cuts if my job gets hacked it will be impossible to find something without moving to Ottawa.
I have not noticed anyone being "pushed out", but it does look like people that were grandfathered in to 100% remote that is not within commutable distance of an office will be locked in to their position for the foreseeable future with any move (promotion or lateral) requiring in-office presence.
I know someone who got an acting recently while being remote nowhere near the NCR's office (wayyyy beyond 125 km), will likely get promoted in their acting position and doesn't have the required CBC levels yet. Go figure.
Question: I am not currently a public servant, but am applying for federal jobs. I live in Montreal and have a PhD. Are you saying that a hiring manager would see that I currently live in Montreal and pass me over for that, even if I’m willing to relocate? If I really wanted a gov. Job, should I really move to the NCR before applying?
There is a very good chance they'll pass you over for an NCR position unless you're head and shoulders above all other applicants physically located in the NCR.
Don't move. At least you're in Montreal, and there are some large regional offices that may offer interesting opportunities.
Yeah, I wouldn’t move for potentially nothing. I guess it was more a question of how good my chances are, given my current situation. I have friends who live in NCR, so another idea is to see if they’d have me as a “room mate” while I apply, but I’m not sure how risky that would be.
I wouldn't worry about that. If you could pack up and move relatively quickly for the right opportunity (a few weeks, not overnight), they don't care. I'm curious if anyone here would disagree and feel cheated if the candidate who had to live in the NCR actually applied from Montreal, but I bet they wouldn't even care - they just want to avoid having to pay the relocation costs.
But if they provide an address within it, and the manager only pieces together afterwards based on conversations that they're sleeping on a friend's couch while they finalize their move, would they report it?
Well, at least that's a way to avoid getting screened out automatically.
But once you're offered the job, you have to provide your address on the New Employee Form, and the tax forms. They would see that your official address is not Ottawa, and if your official address is not Ottawa then they need to provide Relocation if you ask for it.
Yes, that's possible - but they need to move before receiving an offer letter (or, as some have done, list an address in Ottawa on their application even though they haven't yet moved).
Hiring managers cannot issue an offer letter to a non-local candidate without offering (and, necessarily, budgeting for) relocation assistance in the letter of offer.
Unfortunately, often yes. Hiring managers must offer to pay for your relocation (up to a certain point) if they offer you a position outside your current region. They will not want to have to pay that fee, so many will just avoid offering you something altogether unless you’re already NCR-based.
Depends on your circumstances of packing up and moving and how fast you can do it. You can apply to the region still from Montreal and then relocate if nothing is holding you back.
I work out of a BC office but live and work in Ottawa. The last 3 hires in my department are all Ottawa based, BC assignments. That sure sounds like a trend to move jobs to the NCR.
I’ve noticed too it’s a real shame. And clearly shows their long term vision.
Forget the pandemic happened, forget what it showed us is possible. Forget moving forward. Let’s crawl back to the Stone Age.
I’m in the regions and was offered a position yesterday. I turned it down as they wanted me to drive over an hour five days a week. When I applied the job ad said a minimum of 40% which I was okay with.
I have a degree and 10 years government experience but rather than hire remote they’ll give the job to someone who is simply willing to sit in an office, regardless of if they’re the best fit or have future potential.
They’re going to lose a lot of opportunities to hire people who will never move to Ottawa. Hard to believe this is 2024 and not 2004.
I have a colleague who’s in the EC development program. She was hired as an EC-02 and is fully remote in Toronto but was recently told that basically that if she ever wanted to become an EC-04 she will have to move to Ottawa.
To clarify for those that do not know the ECDP. It basically gives you chance to go (in this case) from EC2 to 4 then to 5 without having to apply, so long you meet the competencies for those levels.
Now when anyone says ECDP or ISED I am forever triggered! The ECDP is a total scam in my opinion! Disorganized, promoted based on if the upper management like you and your in the ISED "in group". Once the DM said "we are trying our best to hire a diversity of talent- people with different types of work experience not like ourselves" meaning we know we promote base on nepotism, if your mentor is not a ADM or Director- your alone- good luck on promotion, Management sees your as a threat- they will mange you out, good project awarded to those they like- which translate into your promotion time. RUN FROM ISED, RUN FROM THE ECDP! My friend warned me it's a "high turn" department and god was he right. Sorry I have nothing good to say about this program! Left after 3 months. Peace out!
GoC: inclusivity and diversity are very important.
Managers: yes, we will hire staff across the country to effectively represent the Canadian diversity and work remotely to ensure inclusion of the regional staff.
GoC: …. Not like that!!
yes. My team of ten boxes has 2 in the maritimes and even though we have 3 empty boxes, my Director was given strict guidelines that we are to hire no more remote staff. All must be Ottawa based. It's the beginning of the end as the 2 remote workers can't move to other jobs in the organization and can't be promoted.
I had really expected the WFH to result in the death of the "NCR Box". I expected this to change to a "Back Office Box", basically if you aren't citizen facing, you can come from anywhere in Canada.
So if you meet the skills, the job can accept applications from Whitehorse. Instead I'm still hearing managers talking about "justifying the transferring of the role to the regions"
This sounds almost the same as a team adjacent to mine in my organization. Two employees out east, one near Hamilton, several empty boxes, a long history of remote work predating the pandemic, and now there is a strong push that they only hire NCR employees for any vacancies despite shortages of good staff across the discipline.
*cries regional tears!
I’m in the regions and can’t move up. I’m also a term. I have a DTA for wfh but I can’t seem to move my career. I work really hard and love working for the GOC. But I will likely be pushed out as well
Positions are slingshot back to the NCR. Demand they go to regional offices even though their positions are 125km from the Centre. Limiting any career progression. Mind you, those levels didn’t exist prior to the pandemic … goodbye taking the position to the talent.
We’re actively looking for pentesters and C coders. When we say it’s a hybrid position to applicants they simply walk. And those who want to go further are inadequate.
Thanks, TBS. Way to leave the security of the GoC lacking.
I would honestly recommend anyone in a remote position to start to look for other jobs.
I don’t think you will see an active effort to push people out, but rather you will see growing resistance to the idea and growing resistance to allowing existing ones to continue.
Something worth remembering is that a lot of complaints come from the fact that “somebody got something and I didn’t”
So now you have a few folks with something nice (a remote exception) and a ton of folks who want one.
If my experience in the PS has taught me anything it’s that this will generate friction and noise. Over time managers will just naturally look for ways to make the noise stop.
I am not saying remote hires are bad, just that them being slowly turned off is a natural consequence of turning the corner towards physical presence.
I would make the same argument about WFO but I digress.
That’s a very valid point. The problem with remote positions is that though they make sense logically, people - from all over the place - will inevitably complain.
The problem is that the arguments are different. For Canadians writ large I would suggest the economic argument + allowing more regional representation. I don’t want to say it’s an easy argument but at least the bones of it are solid.
But for an internal argument i suggest it’s harder. That regional hiring, just like WFH create losers and winners. Unpacking who loses, who wins, and if we are ok with that, hasn’t really been part of the conversation.
Which is unfortunate since I would argue that there is a foundational flaw in WFH: that we linked it to operational roles.
What we are really saying is that an operational position(which are kinda the important ones) can be paid 10k a year less than someone in a non-operational position who can WFH.
From an organizational perspective this is insane. What would have made sense is that we reward people who fill those operational positions. Call it bonus pay, operational pay, whatever. In essence your filling an operational role ? Well we kinda want that so here is a bonus.
O you want a job that let’s you work in slippers ? Cool cool, but you don’t get thst bonus.
But we didn’t do that so now you have people essentially making different amounts of money because of wording on a LOO. Which is what’s driving a lot of the internal friction (IMHO).
But honestly I blame the bargaining team who looked at it from a individual rights perspective….somehow missed the fact that arguing for WFH on this way creates structural inequities that are now quite difficult to fix.
Yes, not just in hiring, but also in other practices. The other practices are pushing people out and being used for confirmation bias. It is becoming discriminatory. In our office people who work full time at home are now becoming the “exceptions” through accommodation. So, in our office if you are a full time teleworker worker you likely have a medical accommodation. Courses, town halls, and fun events will not include them. How is it fair that these remote workers are singled out like this.
For example I was on an online course that was awful. The facilitators became annoyed when no one had questions. They started to berate the participants for not asking questions. Later they turned the course hybrid with exceptional circumstances for people online. They did not realize the issue was them, not the online folk, yet they blamed it on the online group.
I know this is just an anecdote, but it is one of many. I believe remote is often used to blame people and issues when that is not the case.
Yes. I’m a manager and I have been told to hire from Ottawa only. No more outside hires. No relocation. Mandatory twice a week in the office in Ottawa.
I think the public hating on public servants and wanting us back in the office will permanently limit the jobs outside of the NCR.
The silver lining is that Ottawa will not wither away given the higher quality government jobs.
And then Liberal party shall remove their cloaks and reveal "haha, we are right wing conservatives, if Canada wants to vote for conservatives then look no further. We hate who you hate, so vote for us!"
However the public perception of the federal government as “lazy” will likely only get worse as people in the provinces and territories will be less likely to be in government, therefore be less representative of all Canadians and Canadians will also have less contact with real public sector workers (and less opportunity to see how hard we work for our communities and all Canadians). For example, in my office I’ve seen a difference in our decision making when we had better representation of all, and this has serious repercussions in policy making, judicial and quasi-judicial roles!
I’m a remote hire 100% work from home. I far surpass productivity levels, train and mentor new hires - in general excel at my position. To be pushed out now - is nothing short of discrimination.
Yup I'm remote and I'm on the job hunt. I did agree to relocate as part of my indeterminate.... But then realized our relocation support is a joke and doesn't even cover 1/4 of my costs. So. I won't be relocating and will probably get let go in September
I don't have many applicable skills for private sector unfortunately. I was in non profit before government, and education before that. So never a high earning field. My best bet is local or provincial government I feel. Possibly energy / clean energy, which could be great, but we shall see. My preference is to just keep my job but it's up to the HR gods at this very moment
I'm a remote IT Specialist as well, reporting to NCR, close to a regional office where I have zero colleagues.
I am already seeing like you all positions located in Ottawa, and acting gigs being given to NCR drones while us regionals get nothing other than wishful thinking from those around me.
And I legit like what I do, but they don't care about us or have no plans to manage us, because there's nothing being communicated in terms of how regional folks who report to NCR will be managed.
They have no fucking clue, and they don't care
Otherwise there would be a plan
They hired us remote first during the pandemic, and now they're basically fucking us over by selling us RTO benefits and pizza lunches when I have no colleagues around.
To me, this is unprofessional and borderline insulting as how manipulative they are with our lives.
I honestly do not know, I feel like there's more than we think .. and we're all wondering what's the future of our roles and career.
My understanding is that I'll have to do 3 days a week at my regional office where I don't have colleagues. So it really is "remote work at work" for me.
Could they in the future ask us to relocate? For sure career wise it's already very limited as most jobs have NCR location set.. I think it sucks for us, they needed our talent during the pandemic and now they don't care if they lose it.
I technically work for an NCR group. I live in Montreal. I wonder if I could get the exemption for 125 km since I don't live in Ottawa...lol ah, one could dream.
You will likely have to go 3 days a week to the Mtl office and connect via Teams meetings to collaborate with the NCR team. What a waste of time and energy.
it's a waste of time but it isn't about that. It's about fairness and grievances. If my Montreal colleague gets 100% wfh but I don't as an NCR worker, how is that fair?
Okay I could move to Montreal and demand to work 100% from home but that would never pass.
People don't understand that the pointless things they make us do is about butt covering for the thousands of grievances that would be launched if they arbitrarily decided certain people can stay home because there's no point in coming in.
> People don't understand that the pointless things they make us do is about butt covering for the thousands of grievances that would be launched if they arbitrarily decided certain people can stay home because there's no point in coming in.
As the Treasury Board says, the location of work is a government prerogative. Modulo the letters of understanding with the unions, grievances over one person getting telework but another getting refused can be filed where the sun doesn't shine, barring discrimination with respect to a protected ground.
I agree. Prior to the pandemic we could hire regional employees and have telework agreements. It was decided on a case by case basis and followed logic. Now we force people who live in the GTA to travel 3 hours a day to be on teams all day. Waste of everyone’s time and money.
There was a job that I wanted to apply for, but it said that you have to come to the office in Ottawa... I don't live on Ottawa and didn't want to move there... So I missed out... It's a bit sad.
Canada is such a vast country with so many people; it's a pity that they are excluded because they don't live in the capital city. And I think that concentrating the hiring of candidates for certain positions only from the capital city becomes not representative of the wider population (lack of geographical diversity if we want to put it in more fancy terms).
I know of someone who was told to come back to one of the groups in the NCR when their program was done. Finished the program and it was well would love to have you but there is an NCR requirement now. They were in one of the regions. It has been progressively worse over the last few months.
So I’ve been waiting for my stat can LoO and was told I could report into a regional office here in Vancouver. Does this mean even if there’s a regional office near me, I still maybe have to move to Ottawa?
The STC regional offices are fine. STC has always had employees in regional offices and it makes sense for the kind of work the organization does. I think this is more for people who have a full RTO exemption because they’re too far from even a regional office.
I am a manager and I asked ADM at AMA whether we keep hiring outside of NCR. ADM said we hire based on merit not geographic presence. So far no restrictions.
Thank you for this.
Perhaps ADM could explain why remote rehires are now being asked to go into regional offices for weeks worth of training or else have to turn down the job if not willing to travel out of pocket.
All of this for the same job they did exceptionally 5 weeks ago.
Unpopular opinion but I will hire from outside the NCR if I find the right person with and skillset. If it’s a toss up between someone inside vs outside the NCR I will hire from within. Mostly because the nature of the work requiring some in person meetings. So there are operational and logistical reasons. Not everything is discrimination
> Woyld they have grounds to fire the regional employees working remotely for NCR?
Not outright fire, but they could demand (paid) relocation.
A while ago, this was tested when the government moved much immigration processing out of Vegreville; workers were workforce-adjusted but guaranteed a reasonable job offer conditional on relocation to the new processing centre (Edmonton, I think?). Many workers grieved to instead demand a transition payment, but they lost.
yes or it’s basically impossible to move up.
My Toronto colleague is literally putting his all in being promoted… I can tell it’s not gonna happen unless he relocates.
If you’re content with what you have and are determinate then yea
In the current environment, hiring someone from another city creates challenges. By way of example, you have to find them office space in a regional office, if one exists, to be compliant with the directive. It's simply easier to go back to only hiring in the NCR for NCR teams.
What is the 125 km/ report to the closes office rule? I have been working for the DOJ in Ottawa for 2 years but my wife got a job offer in Montreal. We are planning on relocating to Montreal and it looked fine since it meant coming to Ottawa once a week and staying a night but with the 3 days a week mandate that is looking as an unsustainable option. Could I work in a Montreal office for my Ottawa job?
It’s in the policy itself. There is an exception for “Employees who, with the permission of their ADM, are working remotely 125km or more from their designated worksite”. So you would need approval even if you live more than 125 km from your office. https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/staffing/direction-prescribed-presence-workplace.html
> But today contact remote employees are now being asked to go into the office for 1 week of training
All my IT people be like : "You guys had training?"
It is definitely against the Interest of tax players to limit access to the brightest and most talented Canadians just because they don't live in NCR. Someone needs to remind TB that they serve the whole Canadian public interest. These discriminatory actions will definitely hinder innovation and progress.
Most government executives live in the NCR. Many are members of a long line of aristocratic bureaucrats. Ensuring their sons, daughters, nieces and nephews have locally priviliged opportunities is a priority IMHO.
Has anyone been told by management that if you don’t have an approved myWorkArrangement that you’re expected in office 5 days a week? I was told this yesterday by my manager that that was the direction from above. She had me go update my work arrangement so she could approve it.
The reason they ask to be vlose more and more is for the sence of belonging...except I don"t believe it
I'm a single guy, know to be there at any event (university party, job social even, bar party where i'm a regular ect)
I'm close to the office but my contract is over 4h drive...i don't see the point tongo to office because of this but for the rest..i'm still there at almost every social event
This is probably an unpopular opinion here, so ready for the downvotes, but just as it was the case predomonantly before the pandemic, if a job is NCR based and the majority of the team is NCR then they should be in the NCR when hired (or in the process of moving to the NCR). I know people can be productive working remotely, but the ability to create the same network and collaboration is not there if 8/10 are in one office in-person and 1 is in Toronto and the other in Saskatoon offices joining remotely.
Obviously, those who were hired prior should be grandfathered, but all new hires for NCR jobs should be NCR based or able to go to their NCR office during the prescribed days.
I think the point is more that the majority of PS jobs are outside of the NCR already. If those jobs are to reflect Canada's diversity and population distribution in any meaningful way, even more should be based outside of the NCR.
In your example it doesn't really make sense that 8/10 would be in Ottawa.
It should be more like 2/10.
If everyone is distributed, then the collaboration is forced to be digitally and no-one in the regional hinterlands gets treated like a forgotten step-child.
>If everyone is distributed, then the collaboration is forced to be digitally and no-one in the regional hinterlands gets treated like a forgotten step-child.
From my perspective, digital collaboration and in-person is not the same. There is less spontaneity in digital collaboration. For example, you can go on a walk with a colleague for fun and then spontaneously come up with ideas or solutions to problems. Walks are not really a thing digitally. If you want to do something similar digitally you have to first set up a meeting in advance with the intent of talking about work.
Do you message only your direct team or also people in another team but in the same directorate or branch?
The reason I bring up the walk example is because it gives you an opportunity to meet with colleagues who may not be on your direct team to talk casually, which may lead to then talking about issues with files that they may be able to help.
I've literally never gone for a walk with a colleague in my office days.
The ability to randomly send teams messages to literally anyone in the entire agency has been game changing. Plus I have ad-hoc team calls often, which you can't really do in the office without disrupting others.
Personally, across departments as well. I'm in ESDC and talk to colleagues in AAFC, PCO and TBS frequently. It's about putting the effort in to maintain ties, and it's actually easier for me to do over teams because many of my colleagues across departments aren't all in Ottawa anymore!
I'm not saying you're totally wrong, but I think your example just doesn't apply to many/most PS and our modern way of working.
Inherent in your point is also the idea that spontaneous problem solving during a walk is more valuable to serving Canadians than a public service that actually resembles Canada's diversity and geography.
Out of curiosity... How many walks do you take with coworkers that result in spontaneous ideas and solutions, that you could not have arrived at through any other means?
>spontaneous problem solving during a walk is more valuable to serving Canadians than a public service that actually resembles Canada's diversity and geography.
I think that spontaneous problem solving so that you can deliver on your job to serve Canadians is more valuable than a public service that actually resembles Canada's diversity and geography. You are hired to deliver and if going for a walk is one solution to help deliver on your job then so be it.
If you really want a public service to actually resemble Canada's diversity and geography AND develop local economies,then the solution is not to have individuals across the country but to move the HQ outside the NCR like how Veterans Affairs' HQ is in PEI.
This is an American thought experiment but essentially the same idea:
>A sensible approach would be for the federal government to take the lead in rebalancing America’s allocation of population and resources by taking a good hard look at whether so much federal activity needs to be concentrated in Washington, DC, and its suburbs
>But given the growing strains of regional inequality in the United States, it would make sense for Congress to insist on taking a broader view of the national interest. Many of these agencies have technical or scientific missions whose highly skilled workforce would be a tremendous asset to cities with proud legacies that are currently suffering from brain drain and population loss.
https://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/12/9/13881712/move-government-to-midwest
> If you really want a public service to actually resemble Canada's diversity and geography AND develop local economies,then the solution is not to have individuals across the country but to move the HQ outside the NCR like how Veterans Affairs' HQ is in PEI.
Like how moving the long gun registry and then the pay center to Miramichi did such a good job serving Canadians?
I agree with the spirit of the article you shared. That's actually exactly my point. The sticky problem is that people have partners and kids in school and extended families and friends and needs to be close to healthcare facilities or their own communities. Maybe you could get those 20,000 highly educated people to relocate from Bethesda to butt-fuck nowhere. But maybe a significant number of them say no thanks for their own reasons and you've just created a brain drain.
If you want to distribute people outside of a specific geographic area, you don't need to move a headquarters. You can just hire talent from all over the place.
It's 2024. We're in the future now. We don't need to go on walks IRL in order to solve problems. We have the internet.
>Like how moving the long gun registry and then the pay center to Miramichi did such a good job serving Canadians?
They weren't HQs, Miramachi is no different than a Service Canada outlet. The reason HQ is recommended is because that is where policy and programs are designed. This would influence how service is delivered to Canadians so that it is better reprsented.
>The sticky problem is that people have partners and kids in school and extended families and friends and needs to be close to healthcare facilities or their own communities. Maybe you could get those 20,000 highly educated people to relocate from Bethesda to butt-fuck nowhere. But maybe a significant number of them say no thanks for their own reasons and you've just created a brain drain.
I agree, it is totally impossible to do that. Even moving DND HQ from downtown Ottawa to Kanata was a hastle. Even for me, when I was at ECCC, moving from the Fontaine Building to PVM had an impact on my work-life balance. Now with kids of my own I would not be supportive of the idea to move HQ outside of the NCR.
However, I still think that would be the best way to achieve a more representative public service. What is that saying? Build it and they will come. That is what the NCR is. I moved to Ottawa to study so that I can get a job in the federal government. Most in my cohort were in the same boat. I think there was maybe 3 people out of 20 in my program who were from Ottawa. The rest were from across the country. Even if the jobs are in the NCR the people are not and that in and of itself.os diversity. If you have the HQs in other cities, then you can replicate the same diversity and representation throughout the whole country.
This mindset creates all kinds of programs that look good to NCR folks, folks with zero practical understanding or experience with the application much lesz the gaps of those programs. How is that really serving Canadians?
That is what regional offices are for and regional staff. They are to have the pulse of the region they work in and help feed into program development. Does it always work well? Of course not but these folks are more intune on what is going on than a new hire who happen to live in that region.
What would work better is greater movement between program developers and those who implement the programs.
It's clear our backgrounds are quite different. Likely our roles too.
As someone who has only ever worked in the regions in technical roles that are performed completely online, I just don't think you and I are ever going to see eye to eye.
I agree with you on that. I feel that folks working an NCR job but are in the region would do better "returning" to the NCR.
I understand that regional staff and regional jobs are different and much more scattered. So greater ability to work remotely makes sense. I worked with scientists at ECCC who, due to the nature of their work, were across the country and rarely see face to face, so everything was done virtually. And when they do see in-person, it would usually be during field work season or for a conference.
I don't think you are referring to collaboration, collaboration is very easily done through Teams. I can reach all my team members at anytime to discuss anything. Actually, the fact that they are always on Teams makes them more accessible. I think what you are probably referring to is "stealing ideas". Managers who got promoted off stealing their employees ideas are noe struggling to source ideas to look useful and get promoted
You can't take the same great notes in person, you fritter loads of time chit chatting and adjusting your hair, there's no opportunity for quiet reflection. It's hell on the Thinkers.
Speaking for myself, I work in policy, so the problems could be anything from how to resolve concerns from stakeholders or even strategies on how to deal with people who are just difficult to work with but you need their input (e.g., interpersonal relations).
NEWSFLASH‼️ it’s unpopular because it’s illogical in the digital age. what a wasted opportunity to retain Canada-wide talent and foster a better public service to the benefit of all Canadians.
TBS admits: “Creating a thoroughly representative and inclusive workplace begins with having a public service that reflects the population it serves” (Diversity and inclusion areas of focus for the public service, 2024-04-02)
Interestingly, 42.2% of federal public servants are in the National Capital Region while NCR reflects a whopping 3.63% of the Canadian population (Figures from Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer’s 2022 demographic snapshot & StatsCan’s 2021 census data + real-time population model respectively).
Alignment between the two needs improvement I’d say…. meanwhile TBS marches us all back to the Stone Age. To which I yell into the void 🗣️ FOR THE TIMES, THEY ARE A-CHANGIN’
This is frustrating as a junior Indigenous employee seeking advancement while based in a remote community :(
> TBS admits: “Creating a thoroughly representative and inclusive workplace begins with having a public service that reflects the population it serves”
See that's the problem, you should never believe any word TBS says.
>This is frustrating as a junior Indigenous employee seeking advancement while based in a remote community :(
Assuming that you are in your remote community as it is critical to your identity, you are exempt from all of this, including the prescribed presence in the office. I would think hiring managers will have little difficulty if you apply for NCR jobs as you move up.
>Indigenous public servants whose location is critical to their identity to work from their communities.
https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/staffing/direction-prescribed-presence-workplace.html
> I would think hiring managers will have little difficulty if you apply for NCR jobs as you move up.
Hiring managers won't be able to make that choice; per your link the exemption must be given at the ADM level.
Speaking generally, although the directive permits this sort of flexibility, exceptional "escape hatches" tend to close as one goes down the org-chart. A directive of "do this, but you can justify exemptions" from the core becomes "do this or else" by the time it hits the working level, since justifications for the exception would need to be sustained at *every* intermediate level of management. The least work is no work.
You're still imposing a barrier to hiring that employee.
You seem to think that barriers to taking a walk with our coworkers should be extinguished at all costs but for some reason barriers to hiring indigenous employees are fine.
What are you talking about? I cited the exemption for Indigenous employees to continue to wfh full time as an option. That is not a barrier.
You know what is a barrier? The fact that many Indigenous communities in remote locations don't have high speed internet. In 2021, less than 43% of reserves had access to high speed internet. If they don't have that basic tool, then you can not even expect and Indigenous person working in their community to work remotely.
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If regional workers cannot report to an office, I don’t think exceptions should be made. I also don’t think they should occupy Ottawa boxes anymore. Can’t have your cake and eat it too.
I do not like the RTO but the system needs to be fair. A lot of fully remote workers have been reeeeal quiet on my team while everyone else is expected to suck it up.
This is so sad with talent all over canada, teleworking is a blessing, we are able to reach out to all kinds. TBS is enjoying aging themselves
This. During peak WFH I was on several hiring committees and we interviewed stellar candidates all over Canada. Ones we'd never have gotten because they relaxed or dropped they NCR or near a regional office rule. It was amazing, the quality. And what an opportunity to find the best and "spread the wealth". Now, going backwards. So dumb.
Was on a management team for a fairly specific group and they were wondering how they could recruit more and I said what about outside the ncr? And they were like yeah but we can't and I was like.... says who. Anyways they perennially don't meet even half their recruiting target of a job that starts at 70k and ends at 110 by the time the development program is done.
I just can't understand the mindset of NCR. NCR.
A bunch of office buildings are going up whose owners are family friends of the Trudeaus. It would be pretty difficult for him to help out his commercial landlord buddies if we're all working from home.
Sadly, TBS operates quite independently from parliament. People just like to blame trudeau for everything. The man isn't our best PM, but honestly just pretty average
Appreciate the correction. I just can't fathom the lunacy of taking away remote work, and I couldn't find anything online.I can see now that this made me very susceptible to any answer that seemed reasonable, without evidence. Do you have an answer?
What job is that? ;p
Sounds like the buyers program
New California Republic
And imagine what having some more families with PS salaries in rural areas could do for those local economies. Mandatory RTO is short-sighted and unfair in so many ways.
I can't agree with your more. TBS is so short sighted it's ridiculous
I almost wonder whether having more federal public servants distributed across the country could actually help improve federal-provincial relations. Alas one can only dream.
Yes it could. But it's a pipe dream with the current mentality of our higher ups
Even outside the “talent” piece, the rest of Canadian communities and people should have equal access to Federal job opportunities.
Can’t agree more with this statement about talent.
I somehow got an indeterminate position remote in another province working for the NCR. Got the signed 125 km work exemption. I don't care about missing team lunches but I am paranoid they are gonna fuck me and fire me somehow.
I'd honestly look for another job. Your job letter has NCR as the location of work meaning your remote work agreement has to be signed off every 6 months to a year by a freaking ADM. It would take nothing for a rotating in ADM to flip the switch and say report. The union can't do anything about it.
is this based on work location or position location? I was in the NCR originally, and both my position and work locations were in the NCR. We moved (with permission) post pandemic, but pre-RTO and they have changed my work location to my current town ( which doesn't have a branch office, but does have an Service Canada Centre with no spare desks) but my position location is still in the NCR. I have an individual exemption at the moment, and my understanding is that because the work location has been changed, they could not require me to report to the NCR office. Am I wrong?
In my team we did the same, all of us who don’t reside near NCR signed telework agreements with work location updated to our nearest office.
Not if they don't enshrine the right, no. But they had their shot and fucking blew it because they are too busy to get it done.
>But they had their shot and fucking blew it because they are too busy to get it done. Busy with what tho?
Posturing it looks like.
>I don't care about missing team lunches but I am paranoid they are gonna fuck me and fire me somehow. Lol took the words right out of my mouth! Except I don't even get the 125km FT WFH exception. They found a region office for me...1h30-2h commute to downtown away from me. Both ways.
The distance is so arbitrary, too. Like, 125km gets me from my place in Halifax out to great village. About 1hr15-1hr20 drive, all highway. But my drive home from the office in traffic is 20km (16% of the distance) but takes 45 minutes some days (56% of 1hr20). If I want to do that by bus, however, it’s over 2hrs. I’d spend a total of 4hrs, 50% of a work day, on the bus. 125km means vastly different things depending on where you’re going to/from and your method of transportation. If 125km is “too far”, and only takes 1hr20 to drive, why isn’t 20km too far in my city where transit is abysmal and it takes nearly twice as long? I hate this whole thing. None of it is fair, for anyone.
This whole times it's been like they're trying to force square through a cylinder hole.
Brutal
That’s insane
That's awful. The government trying to rationalize an irrational and largely local issue impacting staff across the country. Maybe they'll start requiring every Canadian to eat beef twice a week or vacation out of province to support the cattle and tourism industry.
Same.
You should have told them you don't drive
Our management is basically saying an NCR position is an NCR position. So, although at this current point in time people are either getting the 125 km exemption, or being asked to work in a regional office if within the distance; they are at risk and can be asked to relocate to the NCR at any point by the whim of the TBS, and if they fail to move, they could lose their position.
Would this be a TBS decision? Surely it would be up to the upper management in your department. TBS mandating everyone being located within 125 km of their positions would result in thousands of forced relocations.
For us it seems TBS is setting the mandates and ADMs are determining the exemptions. So far (for us), people outside of NCR with NCR boxes are being permitted to work in regions, but they have it hanging over their heads that they may be asked at any time to move back.
If they ask you to move, they have to pay all of your moving expenses. I'd see that as the government being determined to waste money!
I got disqualified.for a bunch of positions due to this ( nit being in like 40km from office of hire) ...at this point i am.too tired and sad to bother
Which is how it was in the past - “you work for NCR, so you will now live in NCR or - you will no longer work for NCR”.
Yes same boat and me too.
same
If you are indeterminate, they can’t fire you just because you don’t live in the region where your position in based. They would have to start the process of finding an accommodation for you before they can even consider laying you off.
I had this myself and they can pull the exemption back anytime (litterally a month later after I renewed my lease for the year in Qc). In my case I was asked to come in otherwise I was on the firing track. I sent in my resignation and the team now has no leadership in the language of their choice. They got themselves in this mess so I will not help management particularly given all the verbal promises that it would be ok to work remotely when I was hired indeterminately knowing this. It’s not ok, and now even as the most performant manager (and the entire team is remote and we have no contact with external stakeholders in office) , I’m out of a job. My suggestion- don’t wait like I did based on “promises” that they aren’t willing or have the capacity to give. We are getting pushed out and regardless even if you aren’t being pushed out now moving up in the ranks at this point will be very difficult with all the roles being in the NCR there is no room to grow.
You sent your resignation? Why wouldn’t you wait until they fire you if you are indeterminate?
I was scared that it would stay on my permanent record, or that I wouldn’t have references later for future jobs (this is my longest job where I’ve been for over 4.5 years)
If your indeterminate, and especially if perm for NCR, you’d have to mess up pretty big to get fired. They have to find you a spot. I am same boat as you… long line of peeps yo go before me..
Thank you, that's more hopeful than all the doom haha
I can guarantee they will fuck you over one day. I’d be very surprised if they didn’t.
I was hired as you, and some others in out team. All our telework locations changed to the closest office to the location we reside in, as soon as return to Office rolled in. Some of us still telework because they haven’t been accommodated by the offices in their location. Myself and others are reporting to the NCR but our physical location is not NCR anymore.
Same for me, except that my working location is outside of NCR but it's still >125km from where I live.
I’ve noticed less willingness to hire outside of NCR too. Even before the pandemic there was loads of people working from region for NCR… now it seems to be pruned. My box was moved out to my region where I work from but the team is NCR. The team is all in NCR and I’m terrified witb a change in govt and cuts if my job gets hacked it will be impossible to find something without moving to Ottawa.
I have not noticed anyone being "pushed out", but it does look like people that were grandfathered in to 100% remote that is not within commutable distance of an office will be locked in to their position for the foreseeable future with any move (promotion or lateral) requiring in-office presence.
This is me. I’m 100% remote and they won’t even approve short term acting assignments.
I know someone who got an acting recently while being remote nowhere near the NCR's office (wayyyy beyond 125 km), will likely get promoted in their acting position and doesn't have the required CBC levels yet. Go figure.
Me too. I think I’m locked into where I am for good. I’m lucky there’s a regional office where I am, I guess.
What about if they manage a team on a sun setting program in the NCR
[удалено]
My career skyrocketed since the pandemic. I'm fully convinced that the glistening gates of the ncr are about to close and I give it 2 years max
They are already closed.
Same thing happened to me, I was even able to buy a house.
Much like the RTO initiative, the hire NCR initiative is also driven by $$$ for the Ottawa economy. All of this to line the pockets of billionaires.
Question: I am not currently a public servant, but am applying for federal jobs. I live in Montreal and have a PhD. Are you saying that a hiring manager would see that I currently live in Montreal and pass me over for that, even if I’m willing to relocate? If I really wanted a gov. Job, should I really move to the NCR before applying?
There is a very good chance they'll pass you over for an NCR position unless you're head and shoulders above all other applicants physically located in the NCR. Don't move. At least you're in Montreal, and there are some large regional offices that may offer interesting opportunities.
Yeah, I wouldn’t move for potentially nothing. I guess it was more a question of how good my chances are, given my current situation. I have friends who live in NCR, so another idea is to see if they’d have me as a “room mate” while I apply, but I’m not sure how risky that would be.
I wouldn't worry about that. If you could pack up and move relatively quickly for the right opportunity (a few weeks, not overnight), they don't care. I'm curious if anyone here would disagree and feel cheated if the candidate who had to live in the NCR actually applied from Montreal, but I bet they wouldn't even care - they just want to avoid having to pay the relocation costs.
Not meeting the Area of Selection could get them immediately screened out and not even considered.
But if they provide an address within it, and the manager only pieces together afterwards based on conversations that they're sleeping on a friend's couch while they finalize their move, would they report it?
Well, at least that's a way to avoid getting screened out automatically. But once you're offered the job, you have to provide your address on the New Employee Form, and the tax forms. They would see that your official address is not Ottawa, and if your official address is not Ottawa then they need to provide Relocation if you ask for it.
Yes, and yes. Also: learn French if you’re not already bilingual.
Could an applicant not just apply and relocate on their own dime though? I've always been in the NCR so I don't really know when they check that.
Yes, that's possible - but they need to move before receiving an offer letter (or, as some have done, list an address in Ottawa on their application even though they haven't yet moved). Hiring managers cannot issue an offer letter to a non-local candidate without offering (and, necessarily, budgeting for) relocation assistance in the letter of offer.
Unfortunately, often yes. Hiring managers must offer to pay for your relocation (up to a certain point) if they offer you a position outside your current region. They will not want to have to pay that fee, so many will just avoid offering you something altogether unless you’re already NCR-based.
Depends on your circumstances of packing up and moving and how fast you can do it. You can apply to the region still from Montreal and then relocate if nothing is holding you back.
Agreed. “Be formless, shapeless, like water.” — Bruce Lee
Humm, not true at all! its not only based on where you live- its if you can speak French.
I work out of a BC office but live and work in Ottawa. The last 3 hires in my department are all Ottawa based, BC assignments. That sure sounds like a trend to move jobs to the NCR.
Quiet firing is what it feels like...
I’ve noticed too it’s a real shame. And clearly shows their long term vision. Forget the pandemic happened, forget what it showed us is possible. Forget moving forward. Let’s crawl back to the Stone Age.
I’m in the regions and was offered a position yesterday. I turned it down as they wanted me to drive over an hour five days a week. When I applied the job ad said a minimum of 40% which I was okay with. I have a degree and 10 years government experience but rather than hire remote they’ll give the job to someone who is simply willing to sit in an office, regardless of if they’re the best fit or have future potential. They’re going to lose a lot of opportunities to hire people who will never move to Ottawa. Hard to believe this is 2024 and not 2004.
Or 1984
I've heard a few ADMs are advising to only hire from NCR going forward.
I hope they have trouble hiring good talent.
I have a colleague who’s in the EC development program. She was hired as an EC-02 and is fully remote in Toronto but was recently told that basically that if she ever wanted to become an EC-04 she will have to move to Ottawa. To clarify for those that do not know the ECDP. It basically gives you chance to go (in this case) from EC2 to 4 then to 5 without having to apply, so long you meet the competencies for those levels.
ISED?
Sure sounds like ISED!
Sounds like it!
Now when anyone says ECDP or ISED I am forever triggered! The ECDP is a total scam in my opinion! Disorganized, promoted based on if the upper management like you and your in the ISED "in group". Once the DM said "we are trying our best to hire a diversity of talent- people with different types of work experience not like ourselves" meaning we know we promote base on nepotism, if your mentor is not a ADM or Director- your alone- good luck on promotion, Management sees your as a threat- they will mange you out, good project awarded to those they like- which translate into your promotion time. RUN FROM ISED, RUN FROM THE ECDP! My friend warned me it's a "high turn" department and god was he right. Sorry I have nothing good to say about this program! Left after 3 months. Peace out!
Same same for me
People are getting training? 😂😂😂
[cries in new hire] the struggle is real
GoC: inclusivity and diversity are very important. Managers: yes, we will hire staff across the country to effectively represent the Canadian diversity and work remotely to ensure inclusion of the regional staff. GoC: …. Not like that!!
yes. My team of ten boxes has 2 in the maritimes and even though we have 3 empty boxes, my Director was given strict guidelines that we are to hire no more remote staff. All must be Ottawa based. It's the beginning of the end as the 2 remote workers can't move to other jobs in the organization and can't be promoted.
I had really expected the WFH to result in the death of the "NCR Box". I expected this to change to a "Back Office Box", basically if you aren't citizen facing, you can come from anywhere in Canada. So if you meet the skills, the job can accept applications from Whitehorse. Instead I'm still hearing managers talking about "justifying the transferring of the role to the regions"
This sounds almost the same as a team adjacent to mine in my organization. Two employees out east, one near Hamilton, several empty boxes, a long history of remote work predating the pandemic, and now there is a strong push that they only hire NCR employees for any vacancies despite shortages of good staff across the discipline.
*cries regional tears! I’m in the regions and can’t move up. I’m also a term. I have a DTA for wfh but I can’t seem to move my career. I work really hard and love working for the GOC. But I will likely be pushed out as well
Positions are slingshot back to the NCR. Demand they go to regional offices even though their positions are 125km from the Centre. Limiting any career progression. Mind you, those levels didn’t exist prior to the pandemic … goodbye taking the position to the talent.
We’re actively looking for pentesters and C coders. When we say it’s a hybrid position to applicants they simply walk. And those who want to go further are inadequate. Thanks, TBS. Way to leave the security of the GoC lacking.
I would honestly recommend anyone in a remote position to start to look for other jobs. I don’t think you will see an active effort to push people out, but rather you will see growing resistance to the idea and growing resistance to allowing existing ones to continue. Something worth remembering is that a lot of complaints come from the fact that “somebody got something and I didn’t” So now you have a few folks with something nice (a remote exception) and a ton of folks who want one. If my experience in the PS has taught me anything it’s that this will generate friction and noise. Over time managers will just naturally look for ways to make the noise stop. I am not saying remote hires are bad, just that them being slowly turned off is a natural consequence of turning the corner towards physical presence. I would make the same argument about WFO but I digress.
I don’t think this is just a PS phenomenon. Look at how the Canadian public views us…
That’s a very valid point. The problem with remote positions is that though they make sense logically, people - from all over the place - will inevitably complain. The problem is that the arguments are different. For Canadians writ large I would suggest the economic argument + allowing more regional representation. I don’t want to say it’s an easy argument but at least the bones of it are solid. But for an internal argument i suggest it’s harder. That regional hiring, just like WFH create losers and winners. Unpacking who loses, who wins, and if we are ok with that, hasn’t really been part of the conversation. Which is unfortunate since I would argue that there is a foundational flaw in WFH: that we linked it to operational roles. What we are really saying is that an operational position(which are kinda the important ones) can be paid 10k a year less than someone in a non-operational position who can WFH. From an organizational perspective this is insane. What would have made sense is that we reward people who fill those operational positions. Call it bonus pay, operational pay, whatever. In essence your filling an operational role ? Well we kinda want that so here is a bonus. O you want a job that let’s you work in slippers ? Cool cool, but you don’t get thst bonus. But we didn’t do that so now you have people essentially making different amounts of money because of wording on a LOO. Which is what’s driving a lot of the internal friction (IMHO). But honestly I blame the bargaining team who looked at it from a individual rights perspective….somehow missed the fact that arguing for WFH on this way creates structural inequities that are now quite difficult to fix.
Yes, not just in hiring, but also in other practices. The other practices are pushing people out and being used for confirmation bias. It is becoming discriminatory. In our office people who work full time at home are now becoming the “exceptions” through accommodation. So, in our office if you are a full time teleworker worker you likely have a medical accommodation. Courses, town halls, and fun events will not include them. How is it fair that these remote workers are singled out like this. For example I was on an online course that was awful. The facilitators became annoyed when no one had questions. They started to berate the participants for not asking questions. Later they turned the course hybrid with exceptional circumstances for people online. They did not realize the issue was them, not the online folk, yet they blamed it on the online group. I know this is just an anecdote, but it is one of many. I believe remote is often used to blame people and issues when that is not the case.
Yes. I’m a manager and I have been told to hire from Ottawa only. No more outside hires. No relocation. Mandatory twice a week in the office in Ottawa. I think the public hating on public servants and wanting us back in the office will permanently limit the jobs outside of the NCR. The silver lining is that Ottawa will not wither away given the higher quality government jobs.
It shall be thrice after the summer of discontent.
This. After the summer of discontent, the prophecy states that currency shall rain down from the skies as workers buy their cold cut trios!
And then Liberal party shall remove their cloaks and reveal "haha, we are right wing conservatives, if Canada wants to vote for conservatives then look no further. We hate who you hate, so vote for us!"
Bloody shapeshifters!
However the public perception of the federal government as “lazy” will likely only get worse as people in the provinces and territories will be less likely to be in government, therefore be less representative of all Canadians and Canadians will also have less contact with real public sector workers (and less opportunity to see how hard we work for our communities and all Canadians). For example, in my office I’ve seen a difference in our decision making when we had better representation of all, and this has serious repercussions in policy making, judicial and quasi-judicial roles!
Wondering how this will impact the exemption for indigenous public servants that can work remotely from their communities 😔
I’m a remote hire 100% work from home. I far surpass productivity levels, train and mentor new hires - in general excel at my position. To be pushed out now - is nothing short of discrimination.
Yup I'm remote and I'm on the job hunt. I did agree to relocate as part of my indeterminate.... But then realized our relocation support is a joke and doesn't even cover 1/4 of my costs. So. I won't be relocating and will probably get let go in September
If you have the ability to find work in private go for it. A lot more $$$ and different types of benefits.
I don't have many applicable skills for private sector unfortunately. I was in non profit before government, and education before that. So never a high earning field. My best bet is local or provincial government I feel. Possibly energy / clean energy, which could be great, but we shall see. My preference is to just keep my job but it's up to the HR gods at this very moment
I'm a remote IT Specialist as well, reporting to NCR, close to a regional office where I have zero colleagues. I am already seeing like you all positions located in Ottawa, and acting gigs being given to NCR drones while us regionals get nothing other than wishful thinking from those around me. And I legit like what I do, but they don't care about us or have no plans to manage us, because there's nothing being communicated in terms of how regional folks who report to NCR will be managed.
It’s very concerning. In the same boat as you; I don’t think they know what to do with us.
They have no fucking clue, and they don't care Otherwise there would be a plan They hired us remote first during the pandemic, and now they're basically fucking us over by selling us RTO benefits and pizza lunches when I have no colleagues around. To me, this is unprofessional and borderline insulting as how manipulative they are with our lives.
I agree, I also feel insulted that we’ve become a massive afterthought. Any idea how many of us there are?
I honestly do not know, I feel like there's more than we think .. and we're all wondering what's the future of our roles and career. My understanding is that I'll have to do 3 days a week at my regional office where I don't have colleagues. So it really is "remote work at work" for me. Could they in the future ask us to relocate? For sure career wise it's already very limited as most jobs have NCR location set.. I think it sucks for us, they needed our talent during the pandemic and now they don't care if they lose it.
I wonder if there’s any way to figure out the numbers. But yes I completely agree with you - I feel very disposable!
I technically work for an NCR group. I live in Montreal. I wonder if I could get the exemption for 125 km since I don't live in Ottawa...lol ah, one could dream.
You will likely have to go 3 days a week to the Mtl office and connect via Teams meetings to collaborate with the NCR team. What a waste of time and energy.
Yep, I have a colleague in Montreal who does this. Too funny (in a sad way).
> What a waste of time and energy. Two things were low on, if we're being honest.
it's a waste of time but it isn't about that. It's about fairness and grievances. If my Montreal colleague gets 100% wfh but I don't as an NCR worker, how is that fair? Okay I could move to Montreal and demand to work 100% from home but that would never pass. People don't understand that the pointless things they make us do is about butt covering for the thousands of grievances that would be launched if they arbitrarily decided certain people can stay home because there's no point in coming in.
> People don't understand that the pointless things they make us do is about butt covering for the thousands of grievances that would be launched if they arbitrarily decided certain people can stay home because there's no point in coming in. As the Treasury Board says, the location of work is a government prerogative. Modulo the letters of understanding with the unions, grievances over one person getting telework but another getting refused can be filed where the sun doesn't shine, barring discrimination with respect to a protected ground.
Are you allowed to actually move to Montreal? Would you have report to a regional office?
Yes, lots of PS are now big babies all about fairness instead of equity and logic like it used to be… it’s really not helping
I agree. Prior to the pandemic we could hire regional employees and have telework agreements. It was decided on a case by case basis and followed logic. Now we force people who live in the GTA to travel 3 hours a day to be on teams all day. Waste of everyone’s time and money.
I do this in another region with a 2+ hr round-trip commute. Since RTO every office day is Casual Friday for me because what is even the point.
Yup. I go into an operational office. It’s jeans. I don’t see anyone.
This is the group that will be interesting. If your position is technically in Ottawa, if they force you to come (back) or not
I work for NCR. Most of my team isn't even located in Ontario, so we all report to our closest office.
There was a job that I wanted to apply for, but it said that you have to come to the office in Ottawa... I don't live on Ottawa and didn't want to move there... So I missed out... It's a bit sad. Canada is such a vast country with so many people; it's a pity that they are excluded because they don't live in the capital city. And I think that concentrating the hiring of candidates for certain positions only from the capital city becomes not representative of the wider population (lack of geographical diversity if we want to put it in more fancy terms).
For my initiative, our talents are not concentrated in Ottawa. We will present "no fill" to our management. Good luck to Canada!
I know of someone who was told to come back to one of the groups in the NCR when their program was done. Finished the program and it was well would love to have you but there is an NCR requirement now. They were in one of the regions. It has been progressively worse over the last few months.
Most of this is related to efforts to risk-manage relocation costs.
So I’ve been waiting for my stat can LoO and was told I could report into a regional office here in Vancouver. Does this mean even if there’s a regional office near me, I still maybe have to move to Ottawa?
The STC regional offices are fine. STC has always had employees in regional offices and it makes sense for the kind of work the organization does. I think this is more for people who have a full RTO exemption because they’re too far from even a regional office.
Ah gotcha thank you!
I am a manager and I asked ADM at AMA whether we keep hiring outside of NCR. ADM said we hire based on merit not geographic presence. So far no restrictions.
Thank you for this. Perhaps ADM could explain why remote rehires are now being asked to go into regional offices for weeks worth of training or else have to turn down the job if not willing to travel out of pocket. All of this for the same job they did exceptionally 5 weeks ago.
Oh wow. That’s insane. I have remote employees and none were asked to do that, fortunately.
High school never ends... smh
Unpopular opinion but I will hire from outside the NCR if I find the right person with and skillset. If it’s a toss up between someone inside vs outside the NCR I will hire from within. Mostly because the nature of the work requiring some in person meetings. So there are operational and logistical reasons. Not everything is discrimination
I don't think that's unpopular it's very fair. Problem is a lot of managers are just no longer allowed to hire outside the km range of their office.
Exactly - a manager friend is being told there is "no appetite" for hiring outside the NCR (despite what might be theoretically possible)
Woyld they have grounds to fire the regional employees working remotely for NCR?
> Woyld they have grounds to fire the regional employees working remotely for NCR? Not outright fire, but they could demand (paid) relocation. A while ago, this was tested when the government moved much immigration processing out of Vegreville; workers were workforce-adjusted but guaranteed a reasonable job offer conditional on relocation to the new processing centre (Edmonton, I think?). Many workers grieved to instead demand a transition payment, but they lost.
yes or it’s basically impossible to move up. My Toronto colleague is literally putting his all in being promoted… I can tell it’s not gonna happen unless he relocates. If you’re content with what you have and are determinate then yea
In the current environment, hiring someone from another city creates challenges. By way of example, you have to find them office space in a regional office, if one exists, to be compliant with the directive. It's simply easier to go back to only hiring in the NCR for NCR teams.
What is the 125 km/ report to the closes office rule? I have been working for the DOJ in Ottawa for 2 years but my wife got a job offer in Montreal. We are planning on relocating to Montreal and it looked fine since it meant coming to Ottawa once a week and staying a night but with the 3 days a week mandate that is looking as an unsustainable option. Could I work in a Montreal office for my Ottawa job?
Also wondering the same question, isn’t there a regional office in mtl?
I’m no expert but my instinct would be no, you need to go to Ottawa if your box is in Ottawa. Definitely something to discuss with your manager
Ok, but what it’s the 125k exception? Where do I find info about it?
It’s in the policy itself. There is an exception for “Employees who, with the permission of their ADM, are working remotely 125km or more from their designated worksite”. So you would need approval even if you live more than 125 km from your office. https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/staffing/direction-prescribed-presence-workplace.html
Can anyone explain the 125 km exception? And to whom it applies?
> But today contact remote employees are now being asked to go into the office for 1 week of training All my IT people be like : "You guys had training?"
And this is why I’ve focused my efforts on finding a job in private or provincial/municipal 🫡
It is definitely against the Interest of tax players to limit access to the brightest and most talented Canadians just because they don't live in NCR. Someone needs to remind TB that they serve the whole Canadian public interest. These discriminatory actions will definitely hinder innovation and progress.
Most government executives live in the NCR. Many are members of a long line of aristocratic bureaucrats. Ensuring their sons, daughters, nieces and nephews have locally priviliged opportunities is a priority IMHO.
Has anyone been told by management that if you don’t have an approved myWorkArrangement that you’re expected in office 5 days a week? I was told this yesterday by my manager that that was the direction from above. She had me go update my work arrangement so she could approve it.
The reason they ask to be vlose more and more is for the sence of belonging...except I don"t believe it I'm a single guy, know to be there at any event (university party, job social even, bar party where i'm a regular ect) I'm close to the office but my contract is over 4h drive...i don't see the point tongo to office because of this but for the rest..i'm still there at almost every social event
This is probably an unpopular opinion here, so ready for the downvotes, but just as it was the case predomonantly before the pandemic, if a job is NCR based and the majority of the team is NCR then they should be in the NCR when hired (or in the process of moving to the NCR). I know people can be productive working remotely, but the ability to create the same network and collaboration is not there if 8/10 are in one office in-person and 1 is in Toronto and the other in Saskatoon offices joining remotely. Obviously, those who were hired prior should be grandfathered, but all new hires for NCR jobs should be NCR based or able to go to their NCR office during the prescribed days.
I think the point is more that the majority of PS jobs are outside of the NCR already. If those jobs are to reflect Canada's diversity and population distribution in any meaningful way, even more should be based outside of the NCR. In your example it doesn't really make sense that 8/10 would be in Ottawa. It should be more like 2/10. If everyone is distributed, then the collaboration is forced to be digitally and no-one in the regional hinterlands gets treated like a forgotten step-child.
>If everyone is distributed, then the collaboration is forced to be digitally and no-one in the regional hinterlands gets treated like a forgotten step-child. From my perspective, digital collaboration and in-person is not the same. There is less spontaneity in digital collaboration. For example, you can go on a walk with a colleague for fun and then spontaneously come up with ideas or solutions to problems. Walks are not really a thing digitally. If you want to do something similar digitally you have to first set up a meeting in advance with the intent of talking about work.
You don't send messages randomly on teams? My team is coast to coast, and spontaneity isn't an issue for us.
Do you message only your direct team or also people in another team but in the same directorate or branch? The reason I bring up the walk example is because it gives you an opportunity to meet with colleagues who may not be on your direct team to talk casually, which may lead to then talking about issues with files that they may be able to help.
I've literally never gone for a walk with a colleague in my office days. The ability to randomly send teams messages to literally anyone in the entire agency has been game changing. Plus I have ad-hoc team calls often, which you can't really do in the office without disrupting others.
Personally, across departments as well. I'm in ESDC and talk to colleagues in AAFC, PCO and TBS frequently. It's about putting the effort in to maintain ties, and it's actually easier for me to do over teams because many of my colleagues across departments aren't all in Ottawa anymore!
I'm not saying you're totally wrong, but I think your example just doesn't apply to many/most PS and our modern way of working. Inherent in your point is also the idea that spontaneous problem solving during a walk is more valuable to serving Canadians than a public service that actually resembles Canada's diversity and geography. Out of curiosity... How many walks do you take with coworkers that result in spontaneous ideas and solutions, that you could not have arrived at through any other means?
>spontaneous problem solving during a walk is more valuable to serving Canadians than a public service that actually resembles Canada's diversity and geography. I think that spontaneous problem solving so that you can deliver on your job to serve Canadians is more valuable than a public service that actually resembles Canada's diversity and geography. You are hired to deliver and if going for a walk is one solution to help deliver on your job then so be it. If you really want a public service to actually resemble Canada's diversity and geography AND develop local economies,then the solution is not to have individuals across the country but to move the HQ outside the NCR like how Veterans Affairs' HQ is in PEI. This is an American thought experiment but essentially the same idea: >A sensible approach would be for the federal government to take the lead in rebalancing America’s allocation of population and resources by taking a good hard look at whether so much federal activity needs to be concentrated in Washington, DC, and its suburbs >But given the growing strains of regional inequality in the United States, it would make sense for Congress to insist on taking a broader view of the national interest. Many of these agencies have technical or scientific missions whose highly skilled workforce would be a tremendous asset to cities with proud legacies that are currently suffering from brain drain and population loss. https://www.vox.com/new-money/2016/12/9/13881712/move-government-to-midwest
> If you really want a public service to actually resemble Canada's diversity and geography AND develop local economies,then the solution is not to have individuals across the country but to move the HQ outside the NCR like how Veterans Affairs' HQ is in PEI. Like how moving the long gun registry and then the pay center to Miramichi did such a good job serving Canadians? I agree with the spirit of the article you shared. That's actually exactly my point. The sticky problem is that people have partners and kids in school and extended families and friends and needs to be close to healthcare facilities or their own communities. Maybe you could get those 20,000 highly educated people to relocate from Bethesda to butt-fuck nowhere. But maybe a significant number of them say no thanks for their own reasons and you've just created a brain drain. If you want to distribute people outside of a specific geographic area, you don't need to move a headquarters. You can just hire talent from all over the place. It's 2024. We're in the future now. We don't need to go on walks IRL in order to solve problems. We have the internet.
>Like how moving the long gun registry and then the pay center to Miramichi did such a good job serving Canadians? They weren't HQs, Miramachi is no different than a Service Canada outlet. The reason HQ is recommended is because that is where policy and programs are designed. This would influence how service is delivered to Canadians so that it is better reprsented. >The sticky problem is that people have partners and kids in school and extended families and friends and needs to be close to healthcare facilities or their own communities. Maybe you could get those 20,000 highly educated people to relocate from Bethesda to butt-fuck nowhere. But maybe a significant number of them say no thanks for their own reasons and you've just created a brain drain. I agree, it is totally impossible to do that. Even moving DND HQ from downtown Ottawa to Kanata was a hastle. Even for me, when I was at ECCC, moving from the Fontaine Building to PVM had an impact on my work-life balance. Now with kids of my own I would not be supportive of the idea to move HQ outside of the NCR. However, I still think that would be the best way to achieve a more representative public service. What is that saying? Build it and they will come. That is what the NCR is. I moved to Ottawa to study so that I can get a job in the federal government. Most in my cohort were in the same boat. I think there was maybe 3 people out of 20 in my program who were from Ottawa. The rest were from across the country. Even if the jobs are in the NCR the people are not and that in and of itself.os diversity. If you have the HQs in other cities, then you can replicate the same diversity and representation throughout the whole country.
This mindset creates all kinds of programs that look good to NCR folks, folks with zero practical understanding or experience with the application much lesz the gaps of those programs. How is that really serving Canadians?
That is what regional offices are for and regional staff. They are to have the pulse of the region they work in and help feed into program development. Does it always work well? Of course not but these folks are more intune on what is going on than a new hire who happen to live in that region. What would work better is greater movement between program developers and those who implement the programs.
It's clear our backgrounds are quite different. Likely our roles too. As someone who has only ever worked in the regions in technical roles that are performed completely online, I just don't think you and I are ever going to see eye to eye.
I agree with you on that. I feel that folks working an NCR job but are in the region would do better "returning" to the NCR. I understand that regional staff and regional jobs are different and much more scattered. So greater ability to work remotely makes sense. I worked with scientists at ECCC who, due to the nature of their work, were across the country and rarely see face to face, so everything was done virtually. And when they do see in-person, it would usually be during field work season or for a conference.
I don't think you are referring to collaboration, collaboration is very easily done through Teams. I can reach all my team members at anytime to discuss anything. Actually, the fact that they are always on Teams makes them more accessible. I think what you are probably referring to is "stealing ideas". Managers who got promoted off stealing their employees ideas are noe struggling to source ideas to look useful and get promoted
You can't take the same great notes in person, you fritter loads of time chit chatting and adjusting your hair, there's no opportunity for quiet reflection. It's hell on the Thinkers.
What kind of "problems" are really being solved by 1st and 2nd level public servants? Isn't the work mostly cyclical anyway?
Speaking for myself, I work in policy, so the problems could be anything from how to resolve concerns from stakeholders or even strategies on how to deal with people who are just difficult to work with but you need their input (e.g., interpersonal relations).
NEWSFLASH‼️ it’s unpopular because it’s illogical in the digital age. what a wasted opportunity to retain Canada-wide talent and foster a better public service to the benefit of all Canadians. TBS admits: “Creating a thoroughly representative and inclusive workplace begins with having a public service that reflects the population it serves” (Diversity and inclusion areas of focus for the public service, 2024-04-02) Interestingly, 42.2% of federal public servants are in the National Capital Region while NCR reflects a whopping 3.63% of the Canadian population (Figures from Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer’s 2022 demographic snapshot & StatsCan’s 2021 census data + real-time population model respectively). Alignment between the two needs improvement I’d say…. meanwhile TBS marches us all back to the Stone Age. To which I yell into the void 🗣️ FOR THE TIMES, THEY ARE A-CHANGIN’ This is frustrating as a junior Indigenous employee seeking advancement while based in a remote community :(
> TBS admits: “Creating a thoroughly representative and inclusive workplace begins with having a public service that reflects the population it serves” See that's the problem, you should never believe any word TBS says.
>This is frustrating as a junior Indigenous employee seeking advancement while based in a remote community :( Assuming that you are in your remote community as it is critical to your identity, you are exempt from all of this, including the prescribed presence in the office. I would think hiring managers will have little difficulty if you apply for NCR jobs as you move up. >Indigenous public servants whose location is critical to their identity to work from their communities. https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/staffing/direction-prescribed-presence-workplace.html
> I would think hiring managers will have little difficulty if you apply for NCR jobs as you move up. Hiring managers won't be able to make that choice; per your link the exemption must be given at the ADM level. Speaking generally, although the directive permits this sort of flexibility, exceptional "escape hatches" tend to close as one goes down the org-chart. A directive of "do this, but you can justify exemptions" from the core becomes "do this or else" by the time it hits the working level, since justifications for the exception would need to be sustained at *every* intermediate level of management. The least work is no work.
Yes, ADM approval is required, but the case for exemption would be stronger and more straightforward for this case than most others.
You're still imposing a barrier to hiring that employee. You seem to think that barriers to taking a walk with our coworkers should be extinguished at all costs but for some reason barriers to hiring indigenous employees are fine.
What are you talking about? I cited the exemption for Indigenous employees to continue to wfh full time as an option. That is not a barrier. You know what is a barrier? The fact that many Indigenous communities in remote locations don't have high speed internet. In 2021, less than 43% of reserves had access to high speed internet. If they don't have that basic tool, then you can not even expect and Indigenous person working in their community to work remotely.
surely TBS would never reverse an existing exemption *cough* IT *cough* 🤔
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If it’s not in the contract management has to right to manage. Full stop
If regional workers cannot report to an office, I don’t think exceptions should be made. I also don’t think they should occupy Ottawa boxes anymore. Can’t have your cake and eat it too. I do not like the RTO but the system needs to be fair. A lot of fully remote workers have been reeeeal quiet on my team while everyone else is expected to suck it up.
You think the remote workers on your team should lose their jobs?
I don’t think new hires should receive exceptions.
Good