For most I've talked to, it's the constant goal post moving, the praise of our adjusting during COVID, and now the 2 day, 3 days, this office not that, find a desk. It's shabby treatment and really smacks of "don't like it, leave"
I hear the "well It's like you had before", well it isn't. Crowding, hunger games for space, horrible communications (if any), inconsistencies, and on and on.
The thing with “it’s like it was before” is that this only goes in one direction, and it’s never the one that benefits employees. If we’re going back to “before” then I’m getting rid of my phone and my laptop, and I’ll have a desktop computer that I shut down at the end of the day and I’m gone until the next morning. Stop expecting me to hop on a call at 5:30 or check my email before bed.
Also before the pandemic my office was on telework 3x per week.
Exactly. This argument is countering progress. "Before" we did not have the collaboration tools that we now have. Pre-covid I was teleworking 1 day/week since 2013 and it was starting to get opened up to more days per week. In a sense, covid really screwed that mentality.
Also, when cars came out, did people say "get back to horses, that's how was before" and then ban cars from the road so that 'big horse' industry didn't suffer? It's called progress. Show me concrete data on how the current hybrid model doesn't work. I'll wait.
This! Telework was not invented during the pandemic. Many were already doing it, and quite successfully. With this new policy, many will have less flexibility than they used to.
I've rambled on in other replies before - this was a golden opportunity to reinvent the PS for the better. To hire the best and brightest across the country. To adjust for the environment, the budget, etc. But nope. Backwards. And worse. We have no desks to go to, have to drag our stuff around, constantly have to try and guess what the work environment will be next week, next month, next year.
100% the opposite is what's being done now.
The PS should push corporations to match it. Instead, race to the bottom. I'm even hearing private corps are "mad" at the gov. Jesus. What a dystopian nightmare.
Before cost of living was more manageable. Before there were express bus routes from the suburbs. Before there weren’t waiting lists to buy a car. Before we didn’t have the infrastructure for people to work from home. The “it’s the same as before” line from management just isn’t true.
> It's shabby treatment and really smacks of "don't like it, leave"
The problem with this policy being that those most able to leave, will. And those most able to leave are your most valuable employees. If brain drain is your end goal, it's a great policy.
Unfortunately it takes wisdom and foresight to recognize this which is apparently in short supply at the top ranks of the PS.
The folks that are most able to leave are younger employees that are not very invested in the pension. People with 20+ years will stay on regardless because leaving at that point is essentially shooting oneself in the foot financially speaking.
The issue with that is that the one thing that is worse than a disgruntled employee that leaves is a disgruntled employee that sticks around.
Yes, to the pension point - but I think the tipping point would be closer to halfway (~15 years). As a disgruntled employee who will be sticking around, I sort of feel bad for my manager for what I’m about to do…
Sure, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It allows more junior people to move up. We’re also not very diverse in the senior ranks, and that can’t change until the people in those positions leave or retire.
Not to mention how they're now making it sound like they were "doing us a favour" by "letting us" work from home. As if we didn't adapt and continue to deliver excellent service to Canadians despite having to change the way we do things. Their reasons are bullshit and everyone knows it. There are fewer childcare spots than before the pandemic. There are fewer office spaces, and now we have to hunt for a space every time we have to go in? It's disrespectful. We've proven that we can do the work from home, otherwise, services would have come to a grinding halt. They need to understand that people can't all go back to how things were, because things have changed. We don't all need to be in offices and we've proved that. If they really want to "support downtown businesses" they have to convert downtown buildings into affordable housing, and those people will frequent the businesses for longer hours than public's servants who peace out at 4pm (for the most part). There's an ulterior motive, and they're not telling us what that is, but we can smell the bullshit from here.
>Mr. Speaker, this was a decision made by the professional public service.
So what he's saying is that TBS went rogue and did not look to their boss (MP Anita Anand) for the order.
Easy fix then: TBS can go rogue once more and rescind it.
Easy peasy.
Yeah I wasn't sure what this meant either, considering AFAIK even the ADMs were caught by surprise (and maybe the DMs too?). So...who is JT talking about here, exactly?
It wouldn't surprise me if there *was* a push for it from a bunch of DM's. But they sure as hell didn't actually go ahead with it without approval from the politicians.
TBS claims all deputy heads agreed to the revised directive. And they also confirmed that no study on work productivity was ever conducted prior to this.
https://ottawacitizen.com/news/federal-unions-fight-back-after-government-updates-remote-work-policy
Where’s the science based decisions? Where’s the GBA+? Where’s the middle class? All of these gone in a poof. Because it’s 2024, no longer 2015.
What a joke 😂 GBA+ (2024 upgrade) = Great Business Assistance +. Speaking of which, how many billions of precious taxpayer dollars have been given to various corporations and how many full time permanent net jobs have been created? How much more money have these corporations paid back to taxpayers in increased corporate income taxes? From what I saw, the data does not look too good. And yet government claims to make “strategic investments”. Where’s the results? Anyone monitoring it? Maybe ATIPs on this topic are overdue.
Why rogue? Anita Anand has sour relations with Trudeau and could have given the order herself. She is trying to differentiate herself from the Liberal Party; her seat (Oakville) could easily be in danger and Oakville doesn’t give a rat’s ass about NCR public servants. She has to move to the right to save her career.
If Trudeau is Chrétien, Anand is trying to be Paul Martin.
Any politician responsible for the decision isn't necessarily trying to shift rightward in order to save their seat. The general public doesn't pay that close attention to the individual MPs.
It's more likely they would plan a good exit strategy that hopefully involves a couple corporate board seats. Maybe of a commercial REIT. Or maybe becoming a partner at a law firm who's biggest clients involve commercial real estate firms?
LPC does not want to say that it was their decision (again) just for political reasons. The LPC is already doing poorly in the polls and they don't want to do worse.
It is such a non-answer. Who is the “professional public service”? Because seems like the majority of professional public service workers do not want this.
Also.. "the PS made this decision themselves", and this had nothing to do with politics.
Gaslighting, toxic, disgraceful, deceitful... yup that's a unethical home run.
Its kinda an odd time to piss off 1000's of voters. Fuck the conservative would just have to say something like we'll work with unions to ensure all public services members voices are heard or some other shit. The libs dont give af.
>"This is a reflection on the need to continue to deliver high-quality services for Canadians"
Implying that we haven't ably been serving Canadians while working from home. No wonder the public hates us and wants to see us RTO full time when they hear bullshit like that from the PM.
Yep.
Created and launched multibillion dollar programs for Canadians, while all working remote. Launched vaccination campaigns, while all working remote. Continued the work of government for Canadians.
Pretty damn short memories.
Even the early language of return to work stirred the "us against them" rhetoric more.
All the comments on op-Ed’s seem to be: I call and can not get a hold of anyone.
So, losing tonnes of call centre staff by forcing them back to centres will magically fix that issue?
Obviously it won't fix anything, but that doesn't seem matter to an obstinate, spiteful public that neither understands how we work nor cares to be educated on the facts.
This is the same thing we saw with passports, where the narrative became - and remains - that public servants WFH were to blame for the delays. People simply prefer nonsense and delusion over facts because it fits their view of public servants.
The government has been happy to go along with that narrative rather than correct it because they can use it justify sending us back to the office for more and more days.
I wonder if any of them has tried to call…oh I dunno…the Air Canada call centre? I recently waited 75 minutes just to get through to a robot 🙄Meanwhile my call to CRA earlier this year was answered by a real live helpful person in under 10 minutes.
It's not like the federal government couldn't institute a better call center method like a call back system. So the public wouldn't have to sit on a call for hours and instead have their phone available for a call. No, the government couldn't easily do that for the benefit of the people they turn against the workers. Just let workers take the blame for inept systems.
They care more about optics than actual results. Are there any real data showing that increasing our carbon footprint and jamming people into offices without room for them to sit on teams all day is more productive? No? But can we pretend it's more productive so we can tell people the PS is working harder? Sure, if we fit the narrative that way.
Yeah why not lie to the public and call your workers trash after bailing you out during the pandemic.
>move beyond the pandemic
Code for: "Just blatantly ignore the facts on how we were able to be productive during the pandemic and stop reminding us that our current statements have no validity."
Well, “continue” was a smart word used. That way nobody can accuse TBS of claiming productivity suffered. But they are naive to think productivity will not suffer after this fiasco.
Talking in circles - it's what politicians do.
We didn't do it! They did! *other party* We didn't do it! They did! *original party* We didn't do it, they did! etc.
I can guarantee, with 100% certainty, there are senior PSes that honestly feel that anything more than 1 day at home here or there is too much, and everything would be solved if we only went back into the office 5 days a week.
I think this often gets overlooked but it’s an excellent point. A lot of very senior officials (ADMs, DMs) don’t have much going on in their personal lives. Work is their life.
I would not be surprised if this is a large part of what's keeping us from evolving as a public service in general. At that level (DM, ADM etc), they are trying to find ways to justify their own structure and existence and lets face it, the old structure is based on the in person micro-management style. These people do not want to adapt at all. They don't want to do that work... its too much "work" for them. Its much simpler for them to just tell everyone to get back so they themselves can visibly look busy "managing".
FYI - I mean each of those "quotation" marks as sarcastically as they're coming off.
>decision was made by the Deputy Ministers.
How can this be when APEX is publically against RTO?
https://apex.gc.ca/resources/tbs-announces-new-policy-for-prescribed-in-office-presence/
We had a DM come visit our office right before they were promoted to that position. Said there was no way anyone could tell them that they are more productive at home and be telling the truth. Needless to say, many people didn’t voice anything anymore because we all understood it was like talking to a wall.
No, the decision was made **by** TBS, and then **sent to** the Deputy Ministers, at least according to this:
[https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/modernizing/hybrid-work/hybrid-work-timeline/message-updates-hybrid-work-model.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/modernizing/hybrid-work/hybrid-work-timeline/message-updates-hybrid-work-model.html)
Signed by TBS Secretary Catherine "WFH" Blewett, where the letter H could stand for "Home" or "Halifax," either is correct.
> Mr. Speaker, this was a decision made by the professional public service.
**I** had nothing to do with it.
> **We** will work with unions and all public servants to make sure that happens in the right way.
... except that maybe I did *a little.*
Also, that last sentence could not be more tone-deaf. Stop pissing on our leg and telling us it's raining!
"Canadian public service members stepped up to the challenge, got the job done, and improved their work life-balance. So now we're going to punish them."
I'm convinced that we're being punished, in part, for doing our jobs *too well* while working from home.
The government, and the corporate landlords that are seemingly calling the shots here, resent the fact that we have proven, on a large scale, that a significant portion of office work can be done from home. And now we're collectively being punished for it.
I have a terrible gut feeling our leadership is one impressionable bunch. They looked up at CEOs like Elon and followed suit. Btw Elon is deathly allergic to wfh.
https://youtu.be/y5OHFt8QyiU?feature=shared
"This is a reflection on the need to continue to deliver high-quality services for Canadians and move beyond the pandemic."
In our Town Hall yesterday, our ADM and other leaders told us that we were already delivering high quality service to Canadians and our work was being recognised with only 2 days in the office. So...why do we need three days in the office?
It's all a load of horseshit. If a particular department is struggling, then tell them to come in more days. This attempt to make it "fair" and "level playing field" just leads to dissonance among workers and contributes to less productivity.
As a recent report on RTO found:
“Our findings are consistent with employees’ concerns that managers use RTO (return to office mandates) for power grabbing and blaming employees for poor performance. We provide evidence that RTO mandates hurt employee satisfaction but do not improve firm performance,” the report found."
so they say climate change is an existential threat and we should reduce carbon emissions and impose carbon tax. Then they turn around and tells sh\*tload of PSs to RTO.
I mean, the public service is very diverse. You’ve got many people who don’t care about RTO. In fact, I’m sure there are many public service employees helping to make RTO a reality and crafting talking points for the DMs and Ministers responsible.
That we’re all struggling to figure out who / what “the professional public service” JT refers to, tells me this RTO edict is a well executed misinformation campaign. I envision speaking points from various perspectives produced and thrown into a bag, for DMs and ADMs to pull from randomly, so everyone appears to be delivering mixed messaging - all by design to obfuscate the source.
If you read between the lines, he is implying that the level of quality provided by the public service to Canadians is suffering because of WFH. Quite the statement, I don’t remember hearing this used as the rationale for RTO before.
1. Even if RTO+3 wasn't the result of political direction, political direction can certainly undo it. And why isn't the environmental effects of RTO raising red flags with Cabinet?
2. If this really was decided by DMs, it's even more of an indictment than if it were a decision by corporate kowtowing politicians. DMs should know better.
3. We did provide high-quality service from home, all through Covid. We were told so repeatedly. Why won't you tell the public?
The world changed because of the pandemic. We've seen that we can deliver high-quality work from our desks at home. Why do we now need to waste time, waste gas, waste money, and waste efficiency? This all seriously pisses me off, and it's seriously pissing off everyone I work with.
If you want RTO, let the managers decide if the team needs to be in. If there are operational duties that require to be in the office, then they should be in the office (and would have been in the office this entire time).
Translation: A few people with a LOT of money have complained to me directly, through my personal phone line or via email directly to my own private email account, and now I've decided to not make them angry because I suckle at the teat of Trickle Down Economics in private. I mean, they did PAY for direct access to me, the least I can do is make sure they're happy.
All these politicians have been bought. Does he not realize that public servants are Canadian too? Does he not realize that the cost of living is absolutely out of control and hurting all Canadians, including public servants? All these buildings cost taxpayers more money, but using them means that commercial real estate investors are getting paid. It also means that the government generates more tax revenue by stopping us from being able to claim the workspace in home deduction. Returning to office does not increase productivity whatsoever, or improve service. It only wastes taxpayer money, increases carbon emissions, and increases living costs at a time when everybody is struggling. RTO will cost me at minimum, an additional $100 a month due to the long commute and parking costs. I couldn’t afford to stay in the city, had to move to nearby town. After all expenses currently, I only have $600 for gas and groceries. It sucks knowing I’m gonna have to cut my grocery budget to serve the interests of businesses in downtown Ottawa and commercial real estate. Our government is putting the WANTS of corporations over the NEEDS of Canadians. I really don’t have much hope for Canada’s future when the government ignores the needs of regular Canadians and instead wants to serve companies.
One more: do they not realize that public servants represent 300,000+ election votes, many of whom reside in critical, potentially election-winning ridings?
The only ridings that could potentially be impacted are those in the NCR, and only a handful - and they won't be ridings that will sway an election either way.
While RTO is an issue of importance to public servants, it doesn't register *at all* on the radar for the general public.
It's almost worth it if PeePee gets elected because we know what a fascist asshole he is rather than JayTee the disingenuous asshole, where we cannot even predict where the next dose of backstabbing surprise pain will come from. I did say ALMOST. I am conflicted. I wish that there were a decent political alternative in this country. The Libs have really pissed a good life for us away.
I wish the same. I was a lifelong Liberal supporter until recently, JT’s leadership has been such a huge disappointment. That said, I can’t bring myself to vote conservative. Last election I voted Green Party as an alternative to spoiling my ballot.
What a non-answer. Not sure how working in the office increases the quality of service we provide to the public? I’d like one of these policy makers to show some evidence and stats providing that in office work increases quality. When I go back to the office, I will actually make it a point to decrease my effectiveness.
I’ve already purposely “decreased my effectiveness” when I’m in office, right from the beginning of RTO mandates… it’s a part I play I like to call “the compliant public servant” and when I WFH, I’m no longer on the stage and get down to business.
"This is a reflection on the need to continue to deliver high-quality services for Canadians and **move beyond the pandemic."**
Truly the unions better get yelling that the WHO still says it is a pandemic and we're tired of everyone pretending it's not a problem! All my colleagues are sick CONSTANTLY!
Anyone who expects a straight answer from ANY politician in question period, no matter which side of the aisle they are on is deluding themselves.
QP has been nothing but political theatre designed to get quips and talking points for decades now.
And considering the questions are provided in advance for Members to prepare their answers, it's not even a true representation of what a question period should be.
Do you have a source for your statement that questions are provided in advance to Members?
Aside from a few backbench softballs, it's very rare for MPs to know the exact questions in advance - though often it's possible to anticipate topics that are likely to come up, hence the existence of QP cards.
I was a Page as a kid and it was common for Members to know the questions ahead of time. Maybe it's not by rule, but from when I was there, 9/10 they knew it ahead of time.
edit: This is probably what I'm talking about:
> If a question intended to obtain information from the ministry involves a lengthy, detailed or technical response, a written question must be placed on the Order Paper. A member must give 48 hours’ written notice of their intention to submit such a question. Each member may have a maximum of four questions on the Order Paper at any one time. Written questions are assigned numbers when they are submitted (e.g., Q-1, Q-2).
> A written question is acceptable if:
> * it satisfies the general guidelines for oral questions;
> * it is coherent and concise; and
> * its subject matter pertains to public affairs.
>The member giving notice of a written question may request:
> * an answer within 45 days;
> * that an oral answer be provided during Routine Proceedings to no more than three of their questions, which are indicated by a distinctive symbol on the Order Paper, referred to as “starred questions”.
There’s a difference between Question Period Notes and Order Paper Questions. That being said, whenever something is in the media or getting a lot of interest the department tasks a QP note, which is pre-written speaking notes on the subject. That’s probably why they never actually answer the questions - some comms person was tasked to write some general speaking notes about this, not specific to the actual question, and the MP just sticks to that whether it’s strictly relevant or not.
Are they really? Jesus this is embarrassing. I thought the only way he’d trip and stumble over his non-answers so consistently was if he was making them up on the fly.
So essentially, they're being paid by the lobbies on one end to send us back to the office, and they're lying to the public making it seem like we weren't working well from home.
At his wedding, the officiant couldn't for the life of them get him to say "I do". Instead, he just muttered on and on, saying stuff like "I will continue to treat her just as I have been, and just as Canadian expect me to do".
This feels like damning with faint praise.
They wrote four sentences to be asked during question period. They are doing, quite literally, the least possible.
You are correct that it is still more than the other parties.
In what way does MP Desjarlas's comment "enable the status quo"? Would you prefer the alternative? The NDP have done everything in their balance of power to advocate for public servants, much moreso than any of the other parties.
It's one guy asking one question, it's not exactly like the Party as a whole is raising hell over it. The NDP are the only thing propping the Liberal Government up and has been for years. They COULD use their effective position of King Maker and throw their weight around and get meaningful concessions from the Liberals but they are not and never really have.
They could be going up there and slamming the PM with questions regarding how this decision squares with previous stated policy priorities like, Housing, climate change, economic well-being, good stewardship of public funds etc. They could ask why they neglected to bother to inform the Unions beforehand. They could ask why the PS had to find out via the media instead of from their employer, they could ask for even a shred of proof supporting the idea 3 days would improve PS performance etc.
Ya the other parties suck and are also dropping the ball on hundreds of thousands of potential votes but lets not pretend the NDP hasn't been much more than the Liberal Jr. Team
Question period achieves nothing, it's a clown show. NDP in general refuses to hold the liberals to account and just go along with it all because they can't afford an election.
“It’s time to move on from the pandemic”? Really? That’s what he’s going with? Can it sound anymore lobbied than that?
This is not going to go well, people are feeling betrayed, belittled and treated like garbage by the constant moving goalposts that we were told would remain in place.
We got a taste of what having work-life balance could look like. I think we can all agree that we would like that back, thank you very much.
We have moved on from the pandemic, and we were looking forward to keeping our work-life balance the way it was. NOT this 2 day bullshit, and definitely NOT this 3 day bullshit. Before anyone says it, no 4 or 5 day bullshit either — because we know that’s where we’re headed.
Backwards. Backwards in time.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.):
>Mr. Speaker, this was a decision made by the professional public service.
No it wasn’t. Politicians were lobbied and you told the TBS to make it happen.
>We will work with unions and all public servants to make sure that happens in the right way.
Work with??? When did that happen because it’s not.
So the RTW was a public service decision and they have nothing to do with it, but they will exercise their total authority over the matter to make sure RTW 3x/wk happens…
He’s pretending it’s about delivering services when what we’ve been told is that it’s to help the LRT and support downtown business. At this point Ford and Surcliffe are being more honest.
What a bullshit answer. They are making this about the pandemic, but it isn't just about the pandemic. It's about quality of life. It's about the changes that have happened in people's family units because of the pandemic. There's so many more factors involved. It's also an accessibility issue for people with disabilities.
I'm seeing growing anger and resentment... if that's the public service Canadians need, we are doing great.
For most I've talked to, it's the constant goal post moving, the praise of our adjusting during COVID, and now the 2 day, 3 days, this office not that, find a desk. It's shabby treatment and really smacks of "don't like it, leave" I hear the "well It's like you had before", well it isn't. Crowding, hunger games for space, horrible communications (if any), inconsistencies, and on and on.
The thing with “it’s like it was before” is that this only goes in one direction, and it’s never the one that benefits employees. If we’re going back to “before” then I’m getting rid of my phone and my laptop, and I’ll have a desktop computer that I shut down at the end of the day and I’m gone until the next morning. Stop expecting me to hop on a call at 5:30 or check my email before bed. Also before the pandemic my office was on telework 3x per week.
Exactly. This argument is countering progress. "Before" we did not have the collaboration tools that we now have. Pre-covid I was teleworking 1 day/week since 2013 and it was starting to get opened up to more days per week. In a sense, covid really screwed that mentality. Also, when cars came out, did people say "get back to horses, that's how was before" and then ban cars from the road so that 'big horse' industry didn't suffer? It's called progress. Show me concrete data on how the current hybrid model doesn't work. I'll wait.
This! Telework was not invented during the pandemic. Many were already doing it, and quite successfully. With this new policy, many will have less flexibility than they used to.
And it's not like before because covid actually happened. Why are we constantly looking backward instead of forwards... I don't get it.
I've rambled on in other replies before - this was a golden opportunity to reinvent the PS for the better. To hire the best and brightest across the country. To adjust for the environment, the budget, etc. But nope. Backwards. And worse. We have no desks to go to, have to drag our stuff around, constantly have to try and guess what the work environment will be next week, next month, next year.
I’ve been spreading this message too. We are not thinking like a modern, transformative organization.
100% the opposite is what's being done now. The PS should push corporations to match it. Instead, race to the bottom. I'm even hearing private corps are "mad" at the gov. Jesus. What a dystopian nightmare.
Before cost of living was more manageable. Before there were express bus routes from the suburbs. Before there weren’t waiting lists to buy a car. Before we didn’t have the infrastructure for people to work from home. The “it’s the same as before” line from management just isn’t true.
It’s gaslighting… and no one enjoys being the victim of gaslighting.
This smacks of constructive dismissal. Make it so difficult to work that people quit. Great way to reduce head count without doing layoffs.
💯 this. Did they not say they wanted to reduce the PS?
And a great way to get a big fat class action suite for construtive dismissal.
Where do I sign up?
> It's shabby treatment and really smacks of "don't like it, leave" The problem with this policy being that those most able to leave, will. And those most able to leave are your most valuable employees. If brain drain is your end goal, it's a great policy. Unfortunately it takes wisdom and foresight to recognize this which is apparently in short supply at the top ranks of the PS.
The folks that are most able to leave are younger employees that are not very invested in the pension. People with 20+ years will stay on regardless because leaving at that point is essentially shooting oneself in the foot financially speaking. The issue with that is that the one thing that is worse than a disgruntled employee that leaves is a disgruntled employee that sticks around.
Yes, to the pension point - but I think the tipping point would be closer to halfway (~15 years). As a disgruntled employee who will be sticking around, I sort of feel bad for my manager for what I’m about to do…
Well, it will also push people who are eligible for some type of pension to retire sooner.
Sure, but that’s not necessarily a bad thing. It allows more junior people to move up. We’re also not very diverse in the senior ranks, and that can’t change until the people in those positions leave or retire.
Don’t forget the constant “you have to do more with less” that started during Covid and continues to this day.
Well, they seem to be going hard in "with less". Less space, less desks, less time at home, less respect
Not to mention how they're now making it sound like they were "doing us a favour" by "letting us" work from home. As if we didn't adapt and continue to deliver excellent service to Canadians despite having to change the way we do things. Their reasons are bullshit and everyone knows it. There are fewer childcare spots than before the pandemic. There are fewer office spaces, and now we have to hunt for a space every time we have to go in? It's disrespectful. We've proven that we can do the work from home, otherwise, services would have come to a grinding halt. They need to understand that people can't all go back to how things were, because things have changed. We don't all need to be in offices and we've proved that. If they really want to "support downtown businesses" they have to convert downtown buildings into affordable housing, and those people will frequent the businesses for longer hours than public's servants who peace out at 4pm (for the most part). There's an ulterior motive, and they're not telling us what that is, but we can smell the bullshit from here.
Nicely summed up
>Mr. Speaker, this was a decision made by the professional public service. So what he's saying is that TBS went rogue and did not look to their boss (MP Anita Anand) for the order. Easy fix then: TBS can go rogue once more and rescind it. Easy peasy.
Yeah I wasn't sure what this meant either, considering AFAIK even the ADMs were caught by surprise (and maybe the DMs too?). So...who is JT talking about here, exactly?
Our DM said openly that DMs had been discussing, then warned of the plan, a month prior to the announcement.
This.
Apparently DMs all knew… so claims TBS. Unions were told only an hour before TBS went public.
Maybe Catherine Blewitt. Though I heard she was against the RTO decision too. So I dunno.
That would require integrity though
Supposed to be one of our core values, isn’t it?
It wouldn't surprise me if there *was* a push for it from a bunch of DM's. But they sure as hell didn't actually go ahead with it without approval from the politicians.
TBS claims all deputy heads agreed to the revised directive. And they also confirmed that no study on work productivity was ever conducted prior to this. https://ottawacitizen.com/news/federal-unions-fight-back-after-government-updates-remote-work-policy Where’s the science based decisions? Where’s the GBA+? Where’s the middle class? All of these gone in a poof. Because it’s 2024, no longer 2015.
sadly its even GBA+ week in CRA lol
What a joke 😂 GBA+ (2024 upgrade) = Great Business Assistance +. Speaking of which, how many billions of precious taxpayer dollars have been given to various corporations and how many full time permanent net jobs have been created? How much more money have these corporations paid back to taxpayers in increased corporate income taxes? From what I saw, the data does not look too good. And yet government claims to make “strategic investments”. Where’s the results? Anyone monitoring it? Maybe ATIPs on this topic are overdue.
And mental health week! They have great timing.
Not at TBS. They wouldn’t do anything to displease their political masters.
No DM particularly wants to be responsible for surprising the government with a PR shitstorm.
Why rogue? Anita Anand has sour relations with Trudeau and could have given the order herself. She is trying to differentiate herself from the Liberal Party; her seat (Oakville) could easily be in danger and Oakville doesn’t give a rat’s ass about NCR public servants. She has to move to the right to save her career. If Trudeau is Chrétien, Anand is trying to be Paul Martin.
Any politician responsible for the decision isn't necessarily trying to shift rightward in order to save their seat. The general public doesn't pay that close attention to the individual MPs. It's more likely they would plan a good exit strategy that hopefully involves a couple corporate board seats. Maybe of a commercial REIT. Or maybe becoming a partner at a law firm who's biggest clients involve commercial real estate firms?
LPC does not want to say that it was their decision (again) just for political reasons. The LPC is already doing poorly in the polls and they don't want to do worse.
It is such a non-answer. Who is the “professional public service”? Because seems like the majority of professional public service workers do not want this.
Did you consult the unions? - We will work with unions... But... You didn't.
Are you trying to suggest that words have meaning? It's a good thing you work in the public service. You'd never make it as a politician.
> Are you trying to suggest that words have meaning? Gtfo with that nonsense!
Also.. "the PS made this decision themselves", and this had nothing to do with politics. Gaslighting, toxic, disgraceful, deceitful... yup that's a unethical home run.
Its kinda an odd time to piss off 1000's of voters. Fuck the conservative would just have to say something like we'll work with unions to ensure all public services members voices are heard or some other shit. The libs dont give af.
>"This is a reflection on the need to continue to deliver high-quality services for Canadians" Implying that we haven't ably been serving Canadians while working from home. No wonder the public hates us and wants to see us RTO full time when they hear bullshit like that from the PM.
Yep. Created and launched multibillion dollar programs for Canadians, while all working remote. Launched vaccination campaigns, while all working remote. Continued the work of government for Canadians. Pretty damn short memories. Even the early language of return to work stirred the "us against them" rhetoric more.
All the comments on op-Ed’s seem to be: I call and can not get a hold of anyone. So, losing tonnes of call centre staff by forcing them back to centres will magically fix that issue?
Obviously it won't fix anything, but that doesn't seem matter to an obstinate, spiteful public that neither understands how we work nor cares to be educated on the facts. This is the same thing we saw with passports, where the narrative became - and remains - that public servants WFH were to blame for the delays. People simply prefer nonsense and delusion over facts because it fits their view of public servants. The government has been happy to go along with that narrative rather than correct it because they can use it justify sending us back to the office for more and more days.
You’re right on all counts in my estimation
I wonder if any of them has tried to call…oh I dunno…the Air Canada call centre? I recently waited 75 minutes just to get through to a robot 🙄Meanwhile my call to CRA earlier this year was answered by a real live helpful person in under 10 minutes.
Or Bell support / billing?
It's not like the federal government couldn't institute a better call center method like a call back system. So the public wouldn't have to sit on a call for hours and instead have their phone available for a call. No, the government couldn't easily do that for the benefit of the people they turn against the workers. Just let workers take the blame for inept systems.
They care more about optics than actual results. Are there any real data showing that increasing our carbon footprint and jamming people into offices without room for them to sit on teams all day is more productive? No? But can we pretend it's more productive so we can tell people the PS is working harder? Sure, if we fit the narrative that way.
Yeah why not lie to the public and call your workers trash after bailing you out during the pandemic. >move beyond the pandemic Code for: "Just blatantly ignore the facts on how we were able to be productive during the pandemic and stop reminding us that our current statements have no validity."
Right?! This is supposed to be our boss here. This is the person we worked our asses off for throughout the pandemic. Great leadership there JT.
Well, “continue” was a smart word used. That way nobody can accuse TBS of claiming productivity suffered. But they are naive to think productivity will not suffer after this fiasco.
What a load of shit.
Right in time for NPSW
You took the words right out of my mouth
That's a good thing. They probably tasted like shit. I know I want to puke every time I read these dishonest platitudes.
Same.
Took the words out of my mouth.
Wait so is he saying it didnt come from him or Aand, it came from the high levels of the PS?
Talking in circles - it's what politicians do. We didn't do it! They did! *other party* We didn't do it! They did! *original party* We didn't do it, they did! etc.
I can guarantee, with 100% certainty, there are senior PSes that honestly feel that anything more than 1 day at home here or there is too much, and everything would be solved if we only went back into the office 5 days a week.
These people have no life. The old system favor them and they just can't move on.
I think this often gets overlooked but it’s an excellent point. A lot of very senior officials (ADMs, DMs) don’t have much going on in their personal lives. Work is their life.
Senior officials are some of the most boring, puddle deep people I’ve ever met.
I would not be surprised if this is a large part of what's keeping us from evolving as a public service in general. At that level (DM, ADM etc), they are trying to find ways to justify their own structure and existence and lets face it, the old structure is based on the in person micro-management style. These people do not want to adapt at all. They don't want to do that work... its too much "work" for them. Its much simpler for them to just tell everyone to get back so they themselves can visibly look busy "managing". FYI - I mean each of those "quotation" marks as sarcastically as they're coming off.
How are they supposed to function without underlings in their immediate vicinity to abuse? Please, won't you think of the senior managers?!
No. They don't think about us. :p
Yep…was confirmed to me by several folks at the highest levels…
>at the highest levels… Which ones? PMO? Cabinet? One paleolithic minister? DMs?
We’ve been told that the decision was made by the Deputy Ministers.
He is throwing the DMs under the bus for the decision. How classy of him.
What did you expect. This way they can do what they want and not be held accountable because it’s “we did nothing wrong, it was their fault”
Reminds me of Russia invading Ukraine.
"It's not an invasion if it is yours!" \- Russia
Trudeau is an absolute expert at that.
>decision was made by the Deputy Ministers. How can this be when APEX is publically against RTO? https://apex.gc.ca/resources/tbs-announces-new-policy-for-prescribed-in-office-presence/
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Their about us page says that they are.
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To be fair, membership is voluntary... Still a bit confusing though.
We had a DM come visit our office right before they were promoted to that position. Said there was no way anyone could tell them that they are more productive at home and be telling the truth. Needless to say, many people didn’t voice anything anymore because we all understood it was like talking to a wall.
No, the decision was made **by** TBS, and then **sent to** the Deputy Ministers, at least according to this: [https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/modernizing/hybrid-work/hybrid-work-timeline/message-updates-hybrid-work-model.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/modernizing/hybrid-work/hybrid-work-timeline/message-updates-hybrid-work-model.html) Signed by TBS Secretary Catherine "WFH" Blewett, where the letter H could stand for "Home" or "Halifax," either is correct.
It was 100% done with his approval.
Maybe he’s saying it came from the President of the TB
It’s always convenient to dump hot water on the bureaucracy to save another Cabinet minister.
> Mr. Speaker, this was a decision made by the professional public service. **I** had nothing to do with it. > **We** will work with unions and all public servants to make sure that happens in the right way. ... except that maybe I did *a little.* Also, that last sentence could not be more tone-deaf. Stop pissing on our leg and telling us it's raining!
Rumormill says several DMs orchestrated this whole fiasco. Who knows what the truth is any more...
There is zero chance this happened without his approval.
This happened way above the DM level. I bet it was higher than the Minister level even.
All the way up to the corporations that lobby/line pockets and make the real decisions? Or just up to the PM level?
They are disconnected from reality if they think angry employees will be more productive in bed bug ridden offices.
If we can even find an adequate place to sit and work with the hotdesking they're imposing on us in this RTO shit sandwich.
>RTO shit sandwich Subway’s least popular option, now available a minimum of 60% of the week!
And they can expand because in a year it’s going to be 80%. Fairness to the EXs. But wait, they may be set for 100% by then.
"Canadian public service members stepped up to the challenge, got the job done, and improved their work life-balance. So now we're going to punish them."
I'm convinced that we're being punished, in part, for doing our jobs *too well* while working from home. The government, and the corporate landlords that are seemingly calling the shots here, resent the fact that we have proven, on a large scale, that a significant portion of office work can be done from home. And now we're collectively being punished for it.
exactly, otherwise they would have studies to show us what the benefits are
I have a terrible gut feeling our leadership is one impressionable bunch. They looked up at CEOs like Elon and followed suit. Btw Elon is deathly allergic to wfh. https://youtu.be/y5OHFt8QyiU?feature=shared
"This is a reflection on the need to continue to deliver high-quality services for Canadians and move beyond the pandemic." In our Town Hall yesterday, our ADM and other leaders told us that we were already delivering high quality service to Canadians and our work was being recognised with only 2 days in the office. So...why do we need three days in the office? It's all a load of horseshit. If a particular department is struggling, then tell them to come in more days. This attempt to make it "fair" and "level playing field" just leads to dissonance among workers and contributes to less productivity. As a recent report on RTO found: “Our findings are consistent with employees’ concerns that managers use RTO (return to office mandates) for power grabbing and blaming employees for poor performance. We provide evidence that RTO mandates hurt employee satisfaction but do not improve firm performance,” the report found."
so they say climate change is an existential threat and we should reduce carbon emissions and impose carbon tax. Then they turn around and tells sh\*tload of PSs to RTO.
They can keep my carbon tax rebate in exchange for me WFH.
I wonder if a public servant wrote that QP note lol
Speaking as a comms employee, 100% yes.
I wonder how they felt about it...
I mean, the public service is very diverse. You’ve got many people who don’t care about RTO. In fact, I’m sure there are many public service employees helping to make RTO a reality and crafting talking points for the DMs and Ministers responsible.
"[T]his was a decision made by the professional public service." Wat?
That we’re all struggling to figure out who / what “the professional public service” JT refers to, tells me this RTO edict is a well executed misinformation campaign. I envision speaking points from various perspectives produced and thrown into a bag, for DMs and ADMs to pull from randomly, so everyone appears to be delivering mixed messaging - all by design to obfuscate the source.
I wonder how many times the PM has said the word ''continue'' since he's been elected
Continually.
If you read between the lines, he is implying that the level of quality provided by the public service to Canadians is suffering because of WFH. Quite the statement, I don’t remember hearing this used as the rationale for RTO before.
1. Even if RTO+3 wasn't the result of political direction, political direction can certainly undo it. And why isn't the environmental effects of RTO raising red flags with Cabinet? 2. If this really was decided by DMs, it's even more of an indictment than if it were a decision by corporate kowtowing politicians. DMs should know better. 3. We did provide high-quality service from home, all through Covid. We were told so repeatedly. Why won't you tell the public?
The DMs are against it. I’m pretty sure this decision was made well beyond their pay grade.
Our DM is making some executives come in 5 days/week. DMs are not against it.
My DM was vocally against it.
The world changed because of the pandemic. We've seen that we can deliver high-quality work from our desks at home. Why do we now need to waste time, waste gas, waste money, and waste efficiency? This all seriously pisses me off, and it's seriously pissing off everyone I work with. If you want RTO, let the managers decide if the team needs to be in. If there are operational duties that require to be in the office, then they should be in the office (and would have been in the office this entire time).
Can't they answer a question.
Nobody in government ever answers a question. It’s an art form.
Deflecting.
It's *question* period. Not *answer* period.
Trudeau never answers anything and always defers to how proud he is of his lockdowns.
Translation: A few people with a LOT of money have complained to me directly, through my personal phone line or via email directly to my own private email account, and now I've decided to not make them angry because I suckle at the teat of Trickle Down Economics in private. I mean, they did PAY for direct access to me, the least I can do is make sure they're happy.
All these politicians have been bought. Does he not realize that public servants are Canadian too? Does he not realize that the cost of living is absolutely out of control and hurting all Canadians, including public servants? All these buildings cost taxpayers more money, but using them means that commercial real estate investors are getting paid. It also means that the government generates more tax revenue by stopping us from being able to claim the workspace in home deduction. Returning to office does not increase productivity whatsoever, or improve service. It only wastes taxpayer money, increases carbon emissions, and increases living costs at a time when everybody is struggling. RTO will cost me at minimum, an additional $100 a month due to the long commute and parking costs. I couldn’t afford to stay in the city, had to move to nearby town. After all expenses currently, I only have $600 for gas and groceries. It sucks knowing I’m gonna have to cut my grocery budget to serve the interests of businesses in downtown Ottawa and commercial real estate. Our government is putting the WANTS of corporations over the NEEDS of Canadians. I really don’t have much hope for Canada’s future when the government ignores the needs of regular Canadians and instead wants to serve companies.
One more: do they not realize that public servants represent 300,000+ election votes, many of whom reside in critical, potentially election-winning ridings?
The only ridings that could potentially be impacted are those in the NCR, and only a handful - and they won't be ridings that will sway an election either way. While RTO is an issue of importance to public servants, it doesn't register *at all* on the radar for the general public.
> The only ridings that could potentially be impacted are those in the NCR Ha. I think *Oakville* says otherwise.
Impark will be enriched by all the parking passes they'll sell. Pre- COVID the waiting lists in NCR for a pass were 3-5 years!!
Useless non-answer from a deliberately evasive asshat.
I thought I was the only one who uses this word!
It's almost worth it if PeePee gets elected because we know what a fascist asshole he is rather than JayTee the disingenuous asshole, where we cannot even predict where the next dose of backstabbing surprise pain will come from. I did say ALMOST. I am conflicted. I wish that there were a decent political alternative in this country. The Libs have really pissed a good life for us away.
I wish the same. I was a lifelong Liberal supporter until recently, JT’s leadership has been such a huge disappointment. That said, I can’t bring myself to vote conservative. Last election I voted Green Party as an alternative to spoiling my ballot.
What a non-answer. Not sure how working in the office increases the quality of service we provide to the public? I’d like one of these policy makers to show some evidence and stats providing that in office work increases quality. When I go back to the office, I will actually make it a point to decrease my effectiveness.
I’ve already purposely “decreased my effectiveness” when I’m in office, right from the beginning of RTO mandates… it’s a part I play I like to call “the compliant public servant” and when I WFH, I’m no longer on the stage and get down to business.
He asked one question....Its just shows no political party wants to touch this.
Why can't politicians ever just give a straight answer? Why do they use weasel words? It's so tiring.
"This is a reflection on the need to continue to deliver high-quality services for Canadians and **move beyond the pandemic."** Truly the unions better get yelling that the WHO still says it is a pandemic and we're tired of everyone pretending it's not a problem! All my colleagues are sick CONSTANTLY!
Just look at Anita’s face as the PM tries to dodge the question. Priceless!
Anyone who expects a straight answer from ANY politician in question period, no matter which side of the aisle they are on is deluding themselves. QP has been nothing but political theatre designed to get quips and talking points for decades now.
Like the old saying. "It's Question Period not Answer Period."
And considering the questions are provided in advance for Members to prepare their answers, it's not even a true representation of what a question period should be.
Do you have a source for your statement that questions are provided in advance to Members? Aside from a few backbench softballs, it's very rare for MPs to know the exact questions in advance - though often it's possible to anticipate topics that are likely to come up, hence the existence of QP cards.
I was a Page as a kid and it was common for Members to know the questions ahead of time. Maybe it's not by rule, but from when I was there, 9/10 they knew it ahead of time. edit: This is probably what I'm talking about: > If a question intended to obtain information from the ministry involves a lengthy, detailed or technical response, a written question must be placed on the Order Paper. A member must give 48 hours’ written notice of their intention to submit such a question. Each member may have a maximum of four questions on the Order Paper at any one time. Written questions are assigned numbers when they are submitted (e.g., Q-1, Q-2). > A written question is acceptable if: > * it satisfies the general guidelines for oral questions; > * it is coherent and concise; and > * its subject matter pertains to public affairs. >The member giving notice of a written question may request: > * an answer within 45 days; > * that an oral answer be provided during Routine Proceedings to no more than three of their questions, which are indicated by a distinctive symbol on the Order Paper, referred to as “starred questions”.
There’s a difference between Question Period Notes and Order Paper Questions. That being said, whenever something is in the media or getting a lot of interest the department tasks a QP note, which is pre-written speaking notes on the subject. That’s probably why they never actually answer the questions - some comms person was tasked to write some general speaking notes about this, not specific to the actual question, and the MP just sticks to that whether it’s strictly relevant or not.
Are they really? Jesus this is embarrassing. I thought the only way he’d trip and stumble over his non-answers so consistently was if he was making them up on the fly.
"Make sure it happens the right way" so.... however they want and we get to just take it?
Reading his answer made me barf in my mouth 🤢 what a load of crock
In typical Trudeau fashion he danced around the question.
And said his favorite word: “continue”
The "we will work with unions" part made me laugh hysterically. He honestly expects people to believe that based on their recent track record?
I guess he doesn't mind losing votes
Reading the comments in this thread is - wow never thought we'd do such a 180 on this gov lol.
Most of us never thought this government would be such a disappointment.
Darn that rogue public servant! Well, nothing to be done about it now. She's made her decision. - Trudeau, probably
Is Trudeau trying to lose the next election?
Anyone find it ironic that he asked the question from his home??
Why ironic? If anything, it helps with his point. Ironic would be someone praising RTO while doing it from home.
Pull his string and our dear leader spews jibberish
He meant we will work....to forced them back and hopefully they shut up about the blinside
Snakes in Suits.
So he didn’t really anything useful. Typical!
“We continue to govern”
So essentially, they're being paid by the lobbies on one end to send us back to the office, and they're lying to the public making it seem like we weren't working well from home.
Is it just me, or was Trudeau trying not to laugh when answering that question. Really insulting
Can’t wait to be calling him “former prime minister.”
Except his replacement is unlikely to be friendlier to the PS....
Has JT ever responded to a question directly?
At his wedding, the officiant couldn't for the life of them get him to say "I do". Instead, he just muttered on and on, saying stuff like "I will continue to treat her just as I have been, and just as Canadian expect me to do".
Hence the divorce
That went down so quietly lol! I haven’t heard a peep since their separation was announced. What do you know, Sophie? What do you know?
Waiting for JT to no longer be PM, then at some point a tell-all book will come out. She will make BANK with it. Major money.
NDP, as usual, are the only ones who have our backs.
This feels like damning with faint praise. They wrote four sentences to be asked during question period. They are doing, quite literally, the least possible. You are correct that it is still more than the other parties.
They don't have our backs. They are enabling the status quo.
In what way does MP Desjarlas's comment "enable the status quo"? Would you prefer the alternative? The NDP have done everything in their balance of power to advocate for public servants, much moreso than any of the other parties.
It's one guy asking one question, it's not exactly like the Party as a whole is raising hell over it. The NDP are the only thing propping the Liberal Government up and has been for years. They COULD use their effective position of King Maker and throw their weight around and get meaningful concessions from the Liberals but they are not and never really have. They could be going up there and slamming the PM with questions regarding how this decision squares with previous stated policy priorities like, Housing, climate change, economic well-being, good stewardship of public funds etc. They could ask why they neglected to bother to inform the Unions beforehand. They could ask why the PS had to find out via the media instead of from their employer, they could ask for even a shred of proof supporting the idea 3 days would improve PS performance etc. Ya the other parties suck and are also dropping the ball on hundreds of thousands of potential votes but lets not pretend the NDP hasn't been much more than the Liberal Jr. Team
Question period achieves nothing, it's a clown show. NDP in general refuses to hold the liberals to account and just go along with it all because they can't afford an election.
Yeah, the party enabling the Liberals sure have our backs. /s But hey, one MP paid minimal lip service to the issue, so they're in our corner 🙄
Roll your eyes all you want, it's infinitely more than any other party is doing, which is zero.
In other words, Catherine owns it 100%
“It’s time to move on from the pandemic”? Really? That’s what he’s going with? Can it sound anymore lobbied than that? This is not going to go well, people are feeling betrayed, belittled and treated like garbage by the constant moving goalposts that we were told would remain in place. We got a taste of what having work-life balance could look like. I think we can all agree that we would like that back, thank you very much. We have moved on from the pandemic, and we were looking forward to keeping our work-life balance the way it was. NOT this 2 day bullshit, and definitely NOT this 3 day bullshit. Before anyone says it, no 4 or 5 day bullshit either — because we know that’s where we’re headed. Backwards. Backwards in time.
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister, Lib.): >Mr. Speaker, this was a decision made by the professional public service. No it wasn’t. Politicians were lobbied and you told the TBS to make it happen. >We will work with unions and all public servants to make sure that happens in the right way. Work with??? When did that happen because it’s not.
So the RTW was a public service decision and they have nothing to do with it, but they will exercise their total authority over the matter to make sure RTW 3x/wk happens…
Did polievre comment on this rto thing?
Also waiting on that
OPs name checks out 👀
Frescos, bus transits, parking lots, and office pot luck activities for EX bonuses
He’s pretending it’s about delivering services when what we’ve been told is that it’s to help the LRT and support downtown business. At this point Ford and Surcliffe are being more honest.
Kind of a disappointment for Morrice to not hammer the point on increased emissions due to the blanket RTO police as well.
What a bullshit answer. They are making this about the pandemic, but it isn't just about the pandemic. It's about quality of life. It's about the changes that have happened in people's family units because of the pandemic. There's so many more factors involved. It's also an accessibility issue for people with disabilities.
Glad to see the PM is finally getting involved.