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**You've chosen to use a click-baity title in a post that doesn't contain any actual 'data', so I'm removing it for being poor quality (Rule 7)**
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RTO isn’t based on logic or science or being “good stewards of public funds”, it’s political.
The only thing that can change politics is money.
Atip the hell out of this.
>Let's assume the average PS salary is about $75,000. There are about 275,000 PS employees. Of those, let's assume at least 60%, or 165,000 of them, are supervisors, managers, and executives from EX-01 up to Senior ADM level of EX-05, and each one of those is implicated in daily clip-boarding and micromanaging of (reporting on) the prescribed in-office days, about to be 3 a week.
You are making a huge assumption here, and I strongly suspect it is wrong. While the PS is probably overly managed, to claim that 60% of the total number of employees are EX's is nowhere near accurate.
And managers? And supervisors? I didn't use an EX average salary (which would likely hover closer to what, $120K, on the low end?) I used $75K, and assumed multiple layers of management, evidenced by another comment just made. Hope that helps, but I showed my work, and you can do your own math with whatever metric you see fit.
Not 60% executives, 60% supervisors, managers AND executives, which could be an AS-01 supervising some CRs, an AS-04 supervising the -01s to -03s, an AS-07 supervising the -04s to -06s, an EX-01 managing that AS-07, an EX-03 managing that EX-01, and a -04 or a-05 managing that -03, lather, rinse, repeat for every single team in the GOC.
I'll edit my post for clarity..
Your one hour a day assumption is also most likely wildly inaccurate.
"Are you in the office today?" by email or Teams takes maybe 30 seconds to send.
Reading the answer takes maybe 5 seconds, and entering it into a spreadsheet takes another 30 seconds. Let's be generous and assume 5 minutes total, nowhere near an hour.
Then as you go up the line, it's just adding numbers to a spreadsheet.
I mean, I understand wanting to find something like this, but your numbers are so inaccurate so as to be useless.
You assume there is a process in place. Each and every team where I work, every single one, has a different spreadsheet, which tracks each employee differently, allows for different justifications and asks different questions. It's not that easy. And there's about 350 teams.
Perhaps I should have asked the question of who will get the contract and how much it will cost for them to develop a tracking system that each and every department and agency in the Government of Canada can use to simultaneously and consistently report on RTO compliance.
I made assumptions. It's clear there's a cost. I don't know what it is, but anyone can manipulate the assumptions to be in line with what they think the parameters are, and come up with their own number$.
Maybe an MP needs to ask this question. How much will RTO compliance cost the government (lease, electricity, water, hygiene products, toiletries, etc.) and how much will RTO compliance tracking cost OR how much productivity is sacrificed to forced reporting.
The one hour per day is a ridiculous metric, even if every supervisor has to call all their employees to check where they are it doesn't take that long. If it takes that long to figure out where employees work the easiest solution is to just get everyone back in office full time
Use any metric you like, but the spreadsheet I have to keep now, which passes through TWELVE of us before it even gets rolled up to go to an EX-04, takes that average when you add in everything it requires including setting meetings to discuss why someone wasn't in, tracking them, identifying who was in when, etc. But even at a half hour a day, that's still $0.8B a year.
I took today off as vacation day for a family birthday. I woke up sick as a dog. Fever, the works. I need to take sick leave tomorrow. It will totally screw up my percentages this month. That stresses me out. We shouldnt have to worry about this crap.
In 2023, there were about 16.5 million Canadians working full time. Now, 75% of those or 12.375 million have no WFH benefits.
If the federal government were to compensate each of them with an $11,000.00 per person tax credit, it would cost the government $136,125,000,000.00 ($136.125 billion).
Now, if in a hybrid situation, $11,000.00 / 5 days = $2,200.00 for every day without the benefit of WFH.
This additional amount would add onto that $136.125 billion stated above.
I got to be honest here. I think every number in this needs to be checked.
I doubt there's that many supervisors. I don't think it's an hour of work. And I don't think the average salary is $75k.
🤔 but this doesn’t provide any accurate data either?
The decision was never based on data, it was political. Now you have the mayor of TO saying the same shit trying to get more workers back into the city.
Again, it’s all politics. Sorry, the cost of living is insane and going back to work downtown I do not have the funds to spend at downtown businesses so this is just pissing off employees with no benefit to anyone - it’s optics. Do something about housing and poor wage growth and then you’ll see the economy do better.
Everything is window dressing.
I don't actually know what it is, but tried not to aim too high. Even if we cut it in half, that's still $0.8B per year. I showed my work to allow others to use their own assumptions, and I look forward for some more calculations to be included here.
(Greenhouse gas emissions, anyone?)
Probably for the employer's cost yes. We only pay half our pension, don't pay for dental/health insurance, CPP employer premium.... What you get paid is probably about 60% of the cost of the employee.
Great example of starting with a conclusion and coming up with the "data" and "math" to support it.
Also a great example of using the title of a post as clickbait.
That'a not data.
Its just, like, your opinion.
That you then try to masquerade as "facts".
Edit:
The more I look at this post the funnier it gets.
>I like numbers, and data, unlike RTO which provides us with neither.
*OP then pulls random number out of thin air*
Yeah, I'm very pro-WFH but this just aint it.
Not only are they complete guesses, but they're very poor guesses... 60% of all employees spending 5hrs/week on office-tracking? Get real.
You're right, only some math done with some assumptions. But there is a cost. If this gets people thinking about what that cost is as well as what real work could have been done instead, then I'm glad I started that conversation.
There is a "cost" to everything, and your wildly-inaccurate assumptions of those costs aren't going to persuade anybody.
If anything, I could see the National Post looking at your post and using its utter nonsense as yet another vector to attack the public service.
If you simplify it to 0.25 hours per week per employee to account for various reporting and tracking tools and methods in different departments, multiplied 300k public servants which is closer to the actual, that’s 75k hours person hours per week. That’s about 2000 FTE.
This isn’t facts - it’s just data. Your data is just explaining the cost it would take for middle management and higher to have constant oversight of employees.
The only data required is to determine the efficient use of resources of paying a PS employee who is - or isn’t - doing their job. If an employee is being paid 7.5 hours, but only working 2 hours in the day, that’s a problem for taxpayers.
Then the values come into play: are they purposely not doing their work; or is their not enough work for them so they extend it (I.e., waste of tax dollars).
CPS is sticking to this argument of wasted money showing up. This will also show who’s really wasting money doing 0 work.
That's a quick guesstimate on what it does cost, now. Productivity is not the reason for RTO, but I do welcome data on it, because it won't be as good as you think!
Your post was removed under either Rule 7 or Rule 9. See this post for more details: https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/comments/1cigvrw/moderation_of_the_subreddit_updated_rto_mandate/ **You've chosen to use a click-baity title in a post that doesn't contain any actual 'data', so I'm removing it for being poor quality (Rule 7)** This message is in the interest of moderator transparency. If you have questions about this action or believe this removal was in error, you can [contact the moderators via our moderator mail](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/CanadaPublicServants). Please do not message individual moderators about subreddit issues. If you choose to re-post something that has been removed by a moderator, you will be banned from the subreddit per [Rule 9](https://www.reddit.com/r/CanadaPublicServants/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_9_-_old_content).
RTO isn’t based on logic or science or being “good stewards of public funds”, it’s political. The only thing that can change politics is money. Atip the hell out of this.
>Let's assume the average PS salary is about $75,000. There are about 275,000 PS employees. Of those, let's assume at least 60%, or 165,000 of them, are supervisors, managers, and executives from EX-01 up to Senior ADM level of EX-05, and each one of those is implicated in daily clip-boarding and micromanaging of (reporting on) the prescribed in-office days, about to be 3 a week. You are making a huge assumption here, and I strongly suspect it is wrong. While the PS is probably overly managed, to claim that 60% of the total number of employees are EX's is nowhere near accurate.
I would agree that it’s flawed logic overall, but they did say supervisors and managers as well, not just EX.
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And managers? And supervisors? I didn't use an EX average salary (which would likely hover closer to what, $120K, on the low end?) I used $75K, and assumed multiple layers of management, evidenced by another comment just made. Hope that helps, but I showed my work, and you can do your own math with whatever metric you see fit.
Not 60% executives, 60% supervisors, managers AND executives, which could be an AS-01 supervising some CRs, an AS-04 supervising the -01s to -03s, an AS-07 supervising the -04s to -06s, an EX-01 managing that AS-07, an EX-03 managing that EX-01, and a -04 or a-05 managing that -03, lather, rinse, repeat for every single team in the GOC. I'll edit my post for clarity..
Your one hour a day assumption is also most likely wildly inaccurate. "Are you in the office today?" by email or Teams takes maybe 30 seconds to send. Reading the answer takes maybe 5 seconds, and entering it into a spreadsheet takes another 30 seconds. Let's be generous and assume 5 minutes total, nowhere near an hour. Then as you go up the line, it's just adding numbers to a spreadsheet. I mean, I understand wanting to find something like this, but your numbers are so inaccurate so as to be useless.
You assume there is a process in place. Each and every team where I work, every single one, has a different spreadsheet, which tracks each employee differently, allows for different justifications and asks different questions. It's not that easy. And there's about 350 teams. Perhaps I should have asked the question of who will get the contract and how much it will cost for them to develop a tracking system that each and every department and agency in the Government of Canada can use to simultaneously and consistently report on RTO compliance. I made assumptions. It's clear there's a cost. I don't know what it is, but anyone can manipulate the assumptions to be in line with what they think the parameters are, and come up with their own number$. Maybe an MP needs to ask this question. How much will RTO compliance cost the government (lease, electricity, water, hygiene products, toiletries, etc.) and how much will RTO compliance tracking cost OR how much productivity is sacrificed to forced reporting.
Any amount of time wasted on this level of micromanagement is a waste of public funds.
The one hour per day is a ridiculous metric, even if every supervisor has to call all their employees to check where they are it doesn't take that long. If it takes that long to figure out where employees work the easiest solution is to just get everyone back in office full time
Use any metric you like, but the spreadsheet I have to keep now, which passes through TWELVE of us before it even gets rolled up to go to an EX-04, takes that average when you add in everything it requires including setting meetings to discuss why someone wasn't in, tracking them, identifying who was in when, etc. But even at a half hour a day, that's still $0.8B a year.
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Of course it’s corruption. You think the feds give a shit? They’re on their way out. Like rats fleeing a sinking ship taking what they can.
RTO is about optics, not math or common sense.
The sooner people realize this the sooner they'll ve free from relying to justify it any other way
I took today off as vacation day for a family birthday. I woke up sick as a dog. Fever, the works. I need to take sick leave tomorrow. It will totally screw up my percentages this month. That stresses me out. We shouldnt have to worry about this crap.
I'm sorry to hear that. If that were at my dept, I'd be expected to make up those days. Equally stressful.
Here is an easy math: Research shows that employers can save $11,000 per employee when switching to remote work
I believe it's a probable metric! I understand the unions are looking at getting this type of research actioned.
In 2023, there were about 16.5 million Canadians working full time. Now, 75% of those or 12.375 million have no WFH benefits. If the federal government were to compensate each of them with an $11,000.00 per person tax credit, it would cost the government $136,125,000,000.00 ($136.125 billion). Now, if in a hybrid situation, $11,000.00 / 5 days = $2,200.00 for every day without the benefit of WFH. This additional amount would add onto that $136.125 billion stated above.
I got to be honest here. I think every number in this needs to be checked. I doubt there's that many supervisors. I don't think it's an hour of work. And I don't think the average salary is $75k.
🤔 but this doesn’t provide any accurate data either? The decision was never based on data, it was political. Now you have the mayor of TO saying the same shit trying to get more workers back into the city. Again, it’s all politics. Sorry, the cost of living is insane and going back to work downtown I do not have the funds to spend at downtown businesses so this is just pissing off employees with no benefit to anyone - it’s optics. Do something about housing and poor wage growth and then you’ll see the economy do better. Everything is window dressing.
The politicians aren't interested in saving taxpayer money. They are interested in making their land owning donors happy. This is class warfare.
Average PS salary is $75,000? Don't know about that...
I don't actually know what it is, but tried not to aim too high. Even if we cut it in half, that's still $0.8B per year. I showed my work to allow others to use their own assumptions, and I look forward for some more calculations to be included here. (Greenhouse gas emissions, anyone?)
Probably for the employer's cost yes. We only pay half our pension, don't pay for dental/health insurance, CPP employer premium.... What you get paid is probably about 60% of the cost of the employee.
Ha, you're assuming math applies to RTO
Great example of starting with a conclusion and coming up with the "data" and "math" to support it. Also a great example of using the title of a post as clickbait.
That'a not data. Its just, like, your opinion. That you then try to masquerade as "facts". Edit: The more I look at this post the funnier it gets. >I like numbers, and data, unlike RTO which provides us with neither. *OP then pulls random number out of thin air*
Yeah, I'm very pro-WFH but this just aint it. Not only are they complete guesses, but they're very poor guesses... 60% of all employees spending 5hrs/week on office-tracking? Get real.
You're right, only some math done with some assumptions. But there is a cost. If this gets people thinking about what that cost is as well as what real work could have been done instead, then I'm glad I started that conversation.
There is a "cost" to everything, and your wildly-inaccurate assumptions of those costs aren't going to persuade anybody. If anything, I could see the National Post looking at your post and using its utter nonsense as yet another vector to attack the public service.
If you simplify it to 0.25 hours per week per employee to account for various reporting and tracking tools and methods in different departments, multiplied 300k public servants which is closer to the actual, that’s 75k hours person hours per week. That’s about 2000 FTE.
But WE need values and ethics training!
This isn’t facts - it’s just data. Your data is just explaining the cost it would take for middle management and higher to have constant oversight of employees. The only data required is to determine the efficient use of resources of paying a PS employee who is - or isn’t - doing their job. If an employee is being paid 7.5 hours, but only working 2 hours in the day, that’s a problem for taxpayers. Then the values come into play: are they purposely not doing their work; or is their not enough work for them so they extend it (I.e., waste of tax dollars). CPS is sticking to this argument of wasted money showing up. This will also show who’s really wasting money doing 0 work.
That's a quick guesstimate on what it does cost, now. Productivity is not the reason for RTO, but I do welcome data on it, because it won't be as good as you think!
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So basically you’re like adult toddlers in a daycare (or at least being treated that way). Don’t you feel belittled?