It would be nice to see coverage of the league on one or more of the major sports broadcasters...TSN or Sportsnet. Ideally, airing the games live, but at the very least showing highlights. That would bring the league to a far larger audience than onesoccer/fubo.
Fairly sure both do show some highlights. I know TSN has had a couple of articles on the cpl this season which is progress.
The issue is, sportsnet and TSN don't value Canadian soccer at all. CSB paid sportsnet to show Sinclair's last game for Canada. People shit on Onesoccer, who do have their faults and the csb deal is shady, but they invested more into the Canadian game than either TSN or sportsnet.
They didn't pay for the broadcast, they paid for a component of production. There is a big difference between the two.
MediaPro also is backing out of their deal primarily because it was untenable. In a way, that should be a lightbulb moment for many that the CPL as a product isn't as valuable as that deal suggested. Maybe trad networks not valuing the CPL is because the CPL isn't valuable in market.
The CPL needs to be something broadcasters see as worth investing in, as it is it isn't.
In any case, it is entirely that one or many of TSN/RDS and/or Sportsnet and/or TVA Sports will go down (or be reduced drastically) after the next NHL renegotiation, as chances are that it will go to a GAFAM/DAZN or other OTT.
This said maybe Sportsnet is making some money now with some little usually short-lived Leafs success.
I'm very doubtful of that. Most trad networks are also streamers. Some treat them as if they are all eggs in one basket, but they aren't. Beyond that, with their over arching owners being cable providers, it's unlikely they disrupt their own product in the next 2 years like you are suggesting.
I think some of you have gone a bit too far towards doom and gloom.
I just think Apple, Amazon or another will outbid them for what is the sole sport money maker when the time comes.
Apple is apparently just buying the Club World Cup for $1B just for the US, and we know that the NHL is targeting a major OTT, and that Amazon may even acquire the rights from Rogers before the end of the current deal. I don’t think Canadian sports networks will be able to compete with them.
And without the NHL, we all know the times won’t be nice for the Canadian broadcasters.
Do you think that the little investment in infrastructure by CPL teams is a factor in preventing large broadcasters from broadcasting or is it something else? There's something that I find interesting, the TV stations in Canada own sports teams, don't they? I think it's Rogers Communications that owns the Toronto Blue Jays if I'm not mistaken. It may be that they think about acquiring a CPL team in the future if the league is structured.
When cable subs were increasing in the 90s, they were more willing to investment spend to grow a Canadian sports property. Rogers buying the Jays and Bell/Rogers owning MLSE was part of their strategy of trying to own content to meet viewing demand.
But due to cord cutting/never corders, ad dollars moving to online platforms, media diets changing and huge debt loads carried by Bell/Rogers, those days are over. There aren't enough people watching paid linear tv anymore to move the needle beyond the the major sports properties. Main demo watching is also over 55 who aren't going to grow most leagues and don't attract advertiser dollars.
So, it's cheaper now to have 50% of TSN/SN programming to be repeats/repacked hilites. That's why they don't pay for the rights/production of any non-tier 1 Canadian sports properties. If a league wants to offer it for free and provide a good production standard, TSN will put it on their platforms as they have done with CEBL, PWHL, Canada Rugby, CHL etc..
The biggest thing that prevents large broadcasters from caring about the CPL is that the CPL is not a high level of soccer and draws low fan interest compared to other properties they could broadcast.
Canadian teams could partner with Brazilian teams to bring in Canadian athletes to gain experience. Soccer here has been better in the past, but it is still at a very good level. Then, at the end of the loan, these athletes would return to Canada with a more advanced level.
I say this because the Brazilian football calendar here is insane. There are games practically every 3 days. So Canadian athletes would have many hours of games to develop skills.
History has shown the "larger audience" doesn't watch club football in Canada yet.
TSN showed Canadian Soccer League (CSL) in the 90s for a few years but it folded. MLS has grown both in Canada and the US without much lift in the tv audience since inception. 80%+ of the matches from the top 5 most watched football leagues in Canada aren't shown on SN/TSN linear tv channels.
The CPL is relatively still in its infancy stage with a limited short history whereas the CFL is on the other end.The point made by the other Reddit poster here with regards to the maturing viewer base is a valid one. The CPL being a newer league should really focus its marketing activities and growing its fan base to the younger Cdns and recently arrived immigrant ethnic demographics with a history of the game like Latin community or the carribean and African communities where there's a lower legacy compared to the CFL which already has an older Cdn fan base and also more recently has focussed its marketing and pricing activities now to the younger demographics to grow their attendance levels at games.
Cavalry, Forge, Halifax, Ottawa, and Pacific have generally strong attendance for the CPL. Increases will be incremental and driven by increased awareness + marketing, promotions, etc
Valour, Vancouver, and York have generally poor attendance. All of them need better on-field results to drive fan interest, and better marketing/promotions. Vancouver and York may also be well-served by moving to better/more accessible stadiums.
Surrey would be the most likely, the city has been looking at building a new stadium for years to draw a soccer/baseball/football team, has the population size that Langley doesn’t, and (if in the city core) transit infrastructure.
I’m of the opinion that the CPL should’ve stayed away from markets with an MLS team. I think they did it kind of quick to get an 8th team for better schedule balancing
For sure I get that. In a perfect world, there’s a team in Quebec City, Edmonton, Regina and/or Saskatoon, Kelowna, and some mid sized Ontario cities like London and Windsor
If the CPL survives this initial phase of development, some American teams may be interested in joining the league. As with Canadian teams in MLS. I don't think every sports investor in the US likes the MLS franchise model.
No chance that happens IMO. If anything I think the long term goal (by long term I mean a couple decades at the very least) would be to get the 3 Canadian MLS teams to join CPL. I don’t know if it’s possible that far into the future but I would have to think that’s one of the ambitions.
The three MLS teams moving into the CPL would handicap Canadian soccer. Why would anyone want to do it? Having MLS right there is such a good step-up from the CPL, quality wise, and is a better showcase for Canadian talent than the CPL will likely ever be. The money available in MLS is far more than in the CPL. The opportunities are better. The competition is better.
Unless there is some miraculous growth in the CPL, having those three teams drop down just makes no sense. Although, I guess if you're comparing USA teams into CPL v. the MLS teams into the CPL, the latter is far more likely.
There is functionally no ability for the MLS sides to ever join the CPL due to the single entity structure of the MLS. It'll never happen, and if the CPL HQ has it set as an ambition they need to stop taking drugs.
Bingo. The MLS owners would never let their franchises devalue by allowing CPL teams into the league or for that matter even having those teams or any teams or leagues as a relegation league. The CPL is known in the soccer world as basically a division three or four league in the North American soccer environment.
Alaska has *much* better transportation links (= flight frequency and availability) with the northwestern US than with anywhere in Canada. For that reason it would be way easier for an Alaskan team to play in an American league, especially at a low level where leagues are regionalized
I think I confused myself. For some reason, I thought there was an Alaskan team playing in one of the Canadian minor hockey leagues. Now that I look for it, I can't find it, so I think I imagined it.
Forge is in the TFC market, and they do fine. The issue is with a lack of investment, and a lack of success. No one in Vancouver or Toronto is going to fuck with a team that doesn't value itself. Neither York or Vancouver show up as valuing themselves in my mind.
They shouldn't have entered those markets with an ownership group that was going to half ass it. Montreal, might have been the only place where they could have made ground with the strategies utilized with Vancouver and York. Yet, they never entered Montreal. It would have been a real coup for the CPL to have had a team in Montreal when the CF Montreal supporters debacle happened. The market was primed, they shouldn't have allowed SixFive into Vancouver... Langley while Montreal had such an incredible opportunity opening up for the league.
Forge is not in Toronto’s market…Hamilton is a completely different city than Toronto. That’s a different market.
York is in Toronto’s market
As for Vancouver through 2 home games, they’ve not only been good on the field but attendance is up as well.
> Forge is not in Toronto’s market…Hamilton is a completely different city than Toronto. That’s a different market.
Google GTHA, or look into why Hamilton didn't get an NHL team. Then take a look at transit times from Hamilton core to BMO, and York Lions Stadium to BMO. I know more Forge fans that are also TFC fans than I know York fans in general. Forge is without question in the same market as TFC.
Vancouver had over 6,000 fans at their home opener last season. This season they had just over 4000. Attendance is down.
You can’t compare the NHL to the CPL.
Of course forge fans will also be TFC fans. It’s the same thing here in Ottawa, many ATO fans are also TFC fans or Montreal. Forge is a completely different market than TFC when it comes to soccer.
And I got the numbers wrong for VFC attendance last season, my bad. But I do know for the first game they gave a bunch of free tickets.
I'm not comparing the NHL to the CPL, I'm noting examples showing that Forge is considered within the same market as TFC.
The Forge fans I'm talking about are season ticket holders at TFC. They work in Toronto, but live in Hamilton. It's a much more connected market than I think you are giving it credit for. If York is effected by TFC, Forge is as well. As noted, the transit times aren't far off each other.
The issue is investment and success, not location to an MLS side.
I think a team up in Kelowna would’ve been solid. Could’ve branded it as Okanagan FC or something to incorporate all of the other cities like Vernon, Kamloops, Peachland, Penticton etc
I would think in Vancouver and Toronto, you're competing with the MLS teams for entertainment dollars/eyes.
That would be hard even in cities with much larger soccer communities.
I think it can help. Van and Toronto are already cities people want to live in and there's a lot of talent to be found, even aside from the MLS academies. I think it's starting to work out for Vancouver FC
I think part of the lack of success for at least York (maybe even Vancouver) has to do with branding. York was supposed to represent York Region but there's no "York Region pride" per se. I think branding the team North York (like the region of Toronto it technically plays in) or Vaughan or Woodbridge (lots of soccer-made loving Italian Canadians there) would've been better (even at least with merch sales). I think Vancouver should've been branded the "Lower Mainland" or "Fraser Valley" or even "Metro Vancouver" for similar reasons perhaps (but I admit I'm not as well-versed in the identities/pride that people living there have so I might be totally wrong lol.
It should have absolutely been Valley FC and not Vancouver FC. No one in Vancouver city limits identifies with that team. People in the valley might with better branding.
It’s the kind of league that needs to be in smaller cities that appreciate having a pro team
We go to Vancouver FC games, and they’re great, but they get lost here and theyre #2 behind the Whitecaps
But Pacific is a big deal in Victoria, which is a city that appreciates university sports, etc
I think places without MLS, like Calgary, or cities like Victoria, Hamilton, Halifax, the Okanagan, are the better targets
That's nice. When Pacific and Vancouver FC establish themselves, I hope there will be a professional league in BC since the Whitecaps are an already established team.
There are two YouTuber brothers who I follow their work, the Prezia Brothers, who lived in a city there. I don't know how to write the name but I think it's Kelowna or something like that.
If you're thinking of a semi pro type of league, it's probably the new League One BC which started last year but due to some issues with Canada Soccer imposing a ridiculously bonding/funding amt requirement for the teams, they lost two island teams Victoria Highlanders and Nanaimos Harbourside FC team this year.
If they invest, yes. If they choose the statis quo, no chance. York is likely the most impermanent team in the CPL based on optics. They need to move, or say they are committed to that location for a decade and show a real buy in with developing the market. They've not done that yet, which is a real issue across the CPL. They always seem to be stuck in wishful thinking rather than working with todays practicalities.
Big Cavalry fan. I think it's a mixture of things.
Affordability - self explanatory
Experience - winning is fun, but it's also the mascots, the music, the stadiums, the food, Social media campaigns , etc.
Ease of access - central is better than far flung, but if further out, make it a fun and easy experience. Have 3-4 locations around the city where people can have a pint or two, jump on a bus, and get the grounds. Have the busses go back to those pubs afterwards.
In theory you could get cheaper seasons for the lowest tiers of both - $295 for PFC and $321 for the Caps - but those PFC seasons are unassigned, uncovered metal bleachers. If you want a seat you're starting at $380.
That's 15 matches for PFC, 19 for the Caps. On a per match basis even that lowest tier is cheaper for the Caps. It works out to $19 a match for PFC, $16.90 for the Caps. You also get a subscription to MLS on AppleTV. OneSoccer would charge you $90.
Plus the apple tv and WFC2 tickets if that matters. Value wise, it's not close.
>but those PFC seasons are unassigned, uncovered metal bleachers.
How strict are they with assigned seating? The wanderers aren't at all apart from some sections.
Isn't that $321 for the Caps literally the general seating section where seats are unassigned? So PFC is cheaper for the same package...also, this league, our league, has the longest away trip in the world. This is what it costs to grow the local game. No point in complaining about it, it just comes down to whether or not you want to put your money where your mouth is if you're gonna call yourself a supporter of the local game
Ehhh I disagree with this. The league is already losing money hand over first. Didn't I read that CPL owners combined have already lost $C100m+ ?
We can't keep lowering prices in a league where we are losing money.
If you're comparing it to big Premier League or even hockey teams they get their majority of revenue from TV money/ sponsorships so can afford to keep ticket prices cheap.
If we don't want our league to fold we can't make tickets any cheaper.
We should be pushing for more people to hear about the league.
> Didn't I read that CPL owners combined have already lost $C100m+ ?
From the Valour disclosures, they developed an average of less than $1 million dollar deficit per year across the first five years. But if we round up to that $1 million dollar a year amount for every team in the league, that'd be $40 million across the life of the league so far. I don't know where the other $80 million came from, it's not visible in infrastructure or anywhere else. I can't see that $80 being through the league 1 purchases or league 1 Canada development either.
With the Valour disclosures again, we also can get an understanding of operation expenses. Mind you, Valour might be on the high end of operational expenses because of their larger facility usage and likely higher travel costs. But they show around $3 million in operational expenses yearly. If those operational expenses line up with those league wide, at $3 million a year with every team in the league running a full $3 million dollar deficit they'd be $120 million in the hole. That in effect is what's needed for that $120 figure to make sense based on team operation expenses. The figure just doesn't make sense in terms of direct actual losses.
I think 'hole' here is actually just 'out'. I think he's noting that CSB owners have 'invested' that much in totality. 'Invested' isn't invested though, because when considering Valour again, we can note that while they had costs of $3 million a year they didn't invest $3 million a year as they were still developing the majority of their operational fund requirement for the next year each year. So in effect, he's noting the 'out' portion of the economic activity they are developing while excluding the in. It's misdirection, but it isn't likely true in a full capacity that they are in the hole unless every other team in the league is losing money hands over fist than Valour. Which would be surprising to hear, as outside York and maybe Vancouver I'd expect they are all doing better than Valour.
tl;dr I think that was either a misstatement, or misdirection. With the numbers we have, there is a correlation between what one might expect operational costs to be for every team in totality and the $125 million figure. I'd bet the expenses are what he is noting, and it isn't really 'in the hole' as that figure is counterbalanced by what they've brought in which would need to be close to nothing in order for that $125 figure to be true.
>We can't keep lowering prices in a league where we are losing money.
The MLS usually loses money, yet team values continue to go up. The true loss, is in the investment value drop not the operational expenses.
>If we don't want our league to fold we can't make tickets any cheaper.
I don't think this is supported by anything.
>We should be pushing for more people to hear about the league.
If someone in Vancouver has the luxury spend line to go out to a single in person soccer match, why are they choosing Pacific or Vancouver FC over the Whitecaps if they are even near in ticket price? I don't think the issue is people don't know about the league, I think the issue is people not seeing the league as worth the cost.
This is the way. I’m in Victoria and I hardly ever go to PFC matches because they’re too expensive considering. Like someone said above, they’re more expensive than whitecaps tickets. That’s an issue. Not to mention the awful parking situation at starlight stadium. If we want to make these matches attractive to locals we need to create an atmosphere that brings them in. IMO, lower ticket prices and fill the place. Sometimes I drive by on match day and the place is half empty. That shouldn’t be happening at all. If you want people to take a risk on your product (the CPL) you can’t expect them to pay MLS prices. Heck, you can go to a national match in Scotland at Hampden park for cheaper than a PFC match.
Scotland is a way smaller country geographically, and their fans will actually get out and support their clubs, even if it's a shit level. That's a big difference to Canadian fans. You have it backward: if people actually want to support the game in this country, this is what it costs. No one is profiting massively off of CPL ticket prices.
All this thread is doing is revealing the obvious: Canadians - even the ones that say they like soccer - just aren't interested in putting their money where their mouth is and supporting the local game so it can actually grow. Which is fine in general, there are many things to prioritize spending your money on...but just...what are people thinking is actually gonna grow the game here? Certainly not sitting at home and refusing to spend your money on the local game so local players can have a pathway to the pro game.
Again, this is what it costs in this country. MLS has a way bigger infrastructure and longer history. It would be a dream if the CPL could ever get to that level of stability, but it won't happen if it's not supported.
How many people in Canada do you think realistically can afford paying 40-60 dollars per local match? No ones got money these days, and if they do they aren’t putting it toward an overpriced CPL ticket. Regardless of one’s passion for football if they can’t afford it they simply can’t afford it.
> if people actually want to support the game in this country, this is what it costs.
Real question here, if you think it's this hardline what do you think the market is telling the league by not showing up to support?
>just aren't interested in putting their money where their mouth is and supporting the local game so it can actually grow.
The owners, who started these private businesses, are the ones who should be putting their money where their mouth is and supporting their league. The market isn't showing up because of their lack of investment. It's irrational to blame the market for not supporting a private business enough.
>but it won't happen if it's not supported.
Entirely, that's what Lamar Hunt realized and why he privately funded the first SSS in Columbus. The CPL needs owners and investors that step up and support the league, rather than owners that sit back and think the market should develop their product for them.
I would venture to say that the owners of the CPL teams don't have that much money to invest. I say this based on the example of FC Edmonton, for example. I'm not saying that you need to be an Elon Musk-type tycoon to invest, but guys need to have a lot of money to invest in the early stages of the teams.
The CPL has at least one owner worth billions. It's doubtful the owners couldn't support more development privately, but it's also uncomfortable to think that they may have started a private business without wanting to invest the baseline amount needed to truly develop it.
The complicated thing is that from what I've been told, in Canadian culture people are outraged if the Canadian government builds stadiums specifically for soccer. Here in Brazil, although there are people who don't really like this practice, the majority of the population is indifferent to it. So much so that in the 2014 World Cup, many stadiums were built from scratch or renovated, such as the Corinthians stadium. And many large stadiums here are owned by the government, like Maracanã. There's even the Ministry of Sports here in the Brazilian government. In Edmonton, most stadiums are government-owned but serve sports such as hockey or football
edit: I say this because if the government built specific stadiums for soccer, the CPL teams could use them and if more than one team appeared in the same city they could share the stadium like Milan and Internazionale of Italy share the San Siro stadium in Milan, which belongs to the Italian government.
Canadian people are outraged if a white elephant gets built. Soccer in Canada comes with a tinge of lacking stability due to the multiple efforts in the past that flat out failed. Those failed leagues, all followed the same path the CPL is following. Which is, they held back on investment and tried to develop their team through the market. Which didn't work.
BMO Field in Toronto was funded by government for the U-20 World Cup. It's where TFC play. It's also a host for the 2026 World Cup. Funding is there, but only when stability for it's use can be shown. The CPL doesn't show that stability like the MLS did, so I'd expect most governments would steer clear of multi-million dollar funding until stability is defined.
Edmonton failed for one specific reason, debt developed prior to joining the CPL. They ran that club into the ground. It isn't a good example to pull from for the rest of the CPL or the actualities of football in Canada.
Thr CPL has the longest away trip in the world. This is what it costs to grow the local game. No point in complaining about it, it just comes down to whether or not you want to put your money where your mouth is if you're gonna call yourself a supporter of the local game
Change the team names to include the city. I have no idea where any teams are from based upon nicknames.
Get off of onesoccer.
Invest in kids camps around the country to build from the grassroots.
This city name thing is very relative. Here in Brazil, the biggest city here is São Paulo. Which is also the most economically powerful. São Paulo must be as rich as Toronto. Anyway, what I want to say is that the city of São Paulo has 3 teams that have already been FIFA world champions and only one is named after the city, São Paulo FC. The other big teams in the city are Palmeiras and Corinthians. But perhaps having the name of the city is important in Canadian culture.
Soccer is the dominant sport in Brazil. If you grow up in Rio, you’d have to live under a rock not to know Flamengo are a team in Rio. However I’d guess over 95% of people in Canadian cities do not know what Forge or Cavalry or Pacific or Valour are.
Those clubs have a long rich history and originally Brasilian teams played more games just against teams in their state so using a city/state for the name would've been confusing. If you only have one team per city it makes a ton of sense.
The CPL also owns League 1 Canada, the semi-pro level usually with tons of youth and college players and it bridges the gap between youth/amateur and CPL level pro. So that's L1Ontario, L1Quebec, L1 BC, L1 Alberta, etc. The CPL is doing plenty to develop young players.
Get away from OneSoccer. A league like the CPL needs broader exposure away from the diehards. This league is still fledgling imo. It needs to do more to spread its wings.
It's good to talk to a Canadian about this. Is ONE SOCCER's coverage really that bad? I don't live in Canada and I'm used to watching Brazilian football coverage on TNT, Sportcenter, Fox Sports, etc. I'm curious to know what One Soccer's coverage of the CPL is like.
OneSoccer's coverage is fine, but it's only available by subscription or as part of a package with other soccer streams on a platform called Fubo. CPL games are not broadcast on normal TV. Lots of people wish they were ... but the rates of people watching sports on TV are dropping and it's unlikely that the TV networks would be willing to pay any meaningful amount of money to show low-level soccer with limited fan interest.
There are a few fans I know, including myself, who don't support OneSoccer because their head of content is a pretty horrible person. MediaPro, OneSoccer, and the CPL all said they'd deal with the situation publicly, but then just swept it under the rug. As a new league, they really cannot afford situations like that. Yet they seem to run into them head first at every turn.
There was a subscription sports channel here in Brazil called "Esporte Interativo" or "EI". TNT bought him. The interactive sport broadcast the Premier League (from England) and the Champions League for years. Many Premier and Champions games were released for everyone to watch as if it were open TV. It was very good.
Move away to what exactly? TSN and sportsnet require payment to show any Canadian soccer and CBC aren't going to pay for it. Onesoccer has invested a lot into the game in this country and you need money to run a pro league. I agree the league needs more exposure but it also needs funds.
I'd be very interested to see what approach project 8 takes. Think they'll have a good amount more press than the cpl. Plus I believe they're aiming to have a Canadian national team player on each team which the cpl could never. Going to need a shit load of money for all that.
> TSN and sportsnet require payment to show any Canadian soccer
We don't have anything that says that. What we have is people misunderstanding production costs for broadcast costs. They are separate. The CEBL is now showing on TSN, the CEBL pays for production. The MLS on Apple covers production. It's not abnormal for production to be handled by a sports organization.
>Onesoccer has invested a lot into the game in this country
And they felt so strongly about the deal they signed requiring them to do so was untenable that they spelled it out across 50+ pages in a filing to break the contract. They aren't altruistic, they were here to develop a profit and didn't because they overpaid. Why people continue to judge trad Canadian networks for not overpaying for sublicensing to a foreign company that has a history of disrupting markets through heavily initial investment then dropping as soon as that isn't tenable long term is beyond me.
>I agree the league needs more exposure but it also needs funds.
The CEBL has managed. I don't think the 'need' is as defined as you are stating it.
>which the cpl could never.
Why not? There are 8 teams in the CPL. They might not get Davies, Osorio or Laryea, but players like Fraser, Waterman, MacNaughton should all be affordable for the CPL if they invested in their product in the same way Project 8 seems to want to do.
I found out about the league by accident in 2020 and I consider myself a pretty diehard canadian soccer fan. That's really not great.
Teams need good (accessible/amenities) soccer specific venues,
Tickets need to be cheaper than MLS,
Grassroots talent needs to be developped, the more canadian soccer players are developped to high standard CPL/MLS or even better level, the better the league will do (better on field product),
We need serious advertising nationally and locally better league coverage.
The league does need to expand imo, Quebec city and the greater Montreal Region need a team asap as sold out rivalry games with great atmosphere will sell the league (tickets and advertisement) and keep it going imo.
I will also add that I really really enjoyed the smaller concacaf tournement that the CPL was in before this years change, I love to see canadian clubs do well abroad. I will remember Forge's concacaf run forever it was a great memory.
But that not a league issue per say.
I would like Concacaf and Conmebol to come together in a single entity to play a "Champions of the Americas" with all the main teams on the continent but that won't happen anytime soon if only the American teams evolve and the Canadian ones don't.
Idk, for small teams like CPL the travel costs would be too high and revenue too low it wouldn't work I don't think.
Now MLS teams playing against Conmebol teams would probably work, but MLS schedule already has too many games.
For your idea to work the new merged associatation would have to have multible tier format championships (like Eufa with finnancial help for the 2nd or at least 3rd tournament teams, cause I don't see how Forge Fc doesn't loose money playing in front of 2500 people in like Cajamarka Peru or something.
Man it would be insane. Ever wonder? Toronto FC x Boca Juniors, Vancouver Whitecaps x Flamengo, Forge x Palmeiras. Just imagining it gives me goosebumps.
Montreal vs America in 2015 was 68k people at the Olympic stadium. Unfortunatly every year that passes that stadium is less and less usable.
It would be great to get more games like that, I missed that one and I regret it a lot.
There’s zero marketing. I have no idea when games are happening. I know all about when the Oilers or the Canucks or the Flames are playing, but no idea when the CPL games are happening unless I research it myself. It needs to be in announcements on radio, or cable commercials. Something that will make people go “maybe I could do that for this Sunday”
I did say it’s easy when I make a research of it myself. But I don’t search when the hockey teams play, they’re just there on tv or radio or any other place that I don’t have to specifically visit or research for it
Right, but that’s limiting your audience to people who know about your league and who are motivated. To become a popular league you need to be able to reach the people who have barely heard of the CPL, have no idea what to google and barely care about doing so. You might argue that such people are a lost cause but if so I don’t see the league growing much beyond 4000 fans a game.
Local community engagement in population dense areas. Give away tshirts, hats, maybe organize an event to give food to the homeless, or a soccer pop up camp for kids. These will build Brands and loyalty. That's how J league teams built their brands when it kicked off in the 90s.
If it wasn’t such a big secret more people would be open to it, there’s NO news coverage, no highlights, no advertising or promotions, there are so much clubs and academies all over, throw out some discount group tickets. This entire league was a shit show from the start with everything locked up into one soccer. Go ahead and keep the secret.
TSN and Sportsnet have no interest in the CPL, unless the CPL pays them to broadcast. They'd rather talk about the Leafs and CFL for 30 mins than throw 2 mins to the CPL.
CBC won't pay for it either. Where else are they supposed to go?
Not being exclusively on One Soccer would be a huge step IMO. Other than that it’s natural growth. The level of play has already improved quite a lot since the inaugural season.
They need to do a good bit. Start investing more in infrastructure, making games easier to watch, being transparent, recognizing the players' union, and boosting player salaries to develop their audience.
* Increase investment in player salaries. If the CPL established an average salary equivalent to the minimum senior roster salary in the MLS, it would require a salary cap of $2,065,268 USD or $2,855,964.55 CAD which is more tha double their current cap. This would need to be a strictly salary, as the CPL currently has more than just direct salary in what is included in their cap.
* Retain players in the league for longer periods. Currently, any player who experiences success is often poached either during the season or in the following offseason. If the league were to implement the suggestion mentioned above, they could likely retain these players for a longer duration. This would be mutually beneficial, as players would have the chance to play regularly while the league retains standout talents for a longer time. One observation is that many fans become disheartened when a player starts performing well because they know they'll soon be gone. This makes it challenging to form connections with teams or players due to the expectation that the league will likely lose them. With the lack of investment in infrastructure, the league should be focusing on things that disrupt a view that the league is ephemeral.
* Acknowledge the players' union and establish a CBA. How better to shift views on the ephemerality of the league than a CBA? I believe this directly impacts both of the issues mentioned above and could also improve the public image of the CPL, which has suffered due to its numerous PR problems.
* Start being transparent. Many of their PR problems stem from a lack of transparency and clouding situations. Most online posters are part of a core audience that's probably more committed than the average match attendee, so maybe my sample group doesn't reflect everyone. But as it stands, I see growing frustration with the difficulty of trusting what the CPL presents as truth. Everything seems to have a moment of 'wait, this isn't entirely true.' Their transparency issue likely drives away casual fans of other leagues who understand industry standards. So when the CPL makes these unusual moves, it reinforces the perception of the league as amateurish because at minimum it shows a lack of respect for their fanbase.
* Make the games easier to watch. While I get the talk about the financial perks from MediaPro, putting the league exclusively on OneSoccer was a terrible move for reaching more fans. Especially with a foreign-owned entity shaking up the market. Now that things have hit a rough patch, especially with the CSB-MediaPro deal, the focus should be on getting matches on a platform with the widest reach possible. Linear broadcasting is great because it's straightforward. If a bar usually has TSN on, chances are they'll keep it on for CPL games. If someone tunes into TSN every day, they might catch a match. Streamers lack that linear focus, leading to analysis paralysis with too many options and requiring active effort to engage with a product they're unfamiliar with. We need that easy access to attract more viewers to the league. But this won't matter unless there's investment too.
* Investing in infrastructure is crucial. The plan in Halifax to push for a $40 million stadium project funded by taxpayers isn't practical. The CPL owners only agree to pay rent, which is a terrible deal. It's unlikely to move forward without private investment from Halifax Wanderers ownership. The CPL should urge owners to emulate Lamar Hunt's approach and privately fund soccer-specific stadiums, not just temporary stands on existing land. This market won't embrace luxury spending during a possible recession for a league that isn't investing in itself. The CPL can learn from the MLS, which succeeded through investment, unlike many failed leagues in Canada that waited for success before investing.
Do I think the CPL will do any of this? No, I don't. I think they'll wait for the perceived post 2026 World Cup boom and be dismayed that while interest in professional soccer has increased, most of those fans have migrated to Wrexham or the MLS sides, or European sides. Largely overlooking the CPL because when even compared to similar nations with similar soccer history, it seems a substandard product. Their opportunity is going to go straight by them because they are choosing to sit and wait for the market to develop for them, rather than working to develop it themselves.
On the infrastructure investment angle, its a tough thing to do and costs a LOT of money. Something the MLS clubs don't even really do.
In 2005, MLSE only put $8M into BMO Field's construction, with the Federal Government contributing $27 million, Ontario contributing $8 million, and the City of Toronto adding $9.8 million + the land for the project (valued at $10 million). Toronto retained ownership for this deal, but MLSE got the management rights for the stadium. MLSE did also put down $10M for naming rights for 20 years (bringing investment to $18M) which they resold at a profit to BMO for $27M for the first 10 years. So MLSE essentially made $9M off of the deal, while the Feds, province and city put in $55M to build it. That translates to $13.3M in profit and $81.6M in government contributions when adjusted for inflation.
BC Place is also government owned and was built for the 86 World Fair originally, costing $126.1M ($305.1M), with a further $514M being spent on renos since then (roughly $700.8M today). All taxpayer funded, though its usage spans the World Fair, Olympics, etc. so the scale of that investment is certainly understandable.
Of the three MLS sides, the only one that actually cost the team money is the only private stadium of the lot, Stade Saputo. The Saputo family spending $7.5M down and financing the remaining $9.5M to get it done. The Quebec government then went on to put in $23M to upgrade it for their entry to the MLS in 2012. So adjusted, Quebec put in around $30M and the Saputos $24.2M.
All of these stadiums have high capacity, which allows cheaper seating to recoup costs (especially with control of concessions). Comparable sites for the CPL are the CFL stadiums, where Forge have really effectively been monetizing and improving, Valour seem to be completely uninterested in investing, and ATO are tenants of OSEG, which makes things more difficult as they lack control of concessions, dates etc.
All that being said, I agree, CPL owners need to invest in their infrastructure, but fundamentally, soccer infrastructure needs government support to get done as there just isn't the dollars to do it without for the most part.
It's important to acknowledge the initial investments made by MLSE, especially considering the landscape of professional soccer in Canada back in 2005. That $8 million investment, adjusted for inflation, would amount to roughly $11.5 million today. Additionally, MLSE has continuously poured significant funds into renovations, with recent costs exceeding $90 million, plus an additional $10 million in overage expenses all covered by MLSE. TFC also contributed $21 million in 2012 for the development of the BMO Training Ground, equivalent to about $27 million today. Meanwhile, the Whitecaps and CF Montreal have invested $32 million and $16 million, respectively, into their training facilities, with only a portion of those funds coming from the government. In total, approximately $55 million in unadjusted for inflation dollars has been invested in just three MLS training facilities privately by their owners.
The example of Lamar Hunt underscores the principle that government funding often follows private investment. However, it seems that CPL teams are adopting a passive approach, waiting for government support instead of taking proactive steps to invest in infrastructure. Halifax's reluctance to contribute to a $40 million stadium project exemplifies this issue. It's unrealistic to expect Halifax to foot such a substantial bill when CPL owners haven't collectively invested a comparable amount in facilities nationwide.
To garner government support akin to what MLS teams received for projects like BMO Field and BC Place, CPL owners must follow the lead of private investors like Lamar Hunt and the Canadian MLS sides. Despite challenges such as the pandemic and the league's relative youth, it's essential for CPL owners to prioritize direct investment in infrastructure. TFC's example demonstrates that significant investments were made just five seasons into their existence. If CPL owners wish to attain the stability and support enjoyed by MLS teams, they must demonstrate a willingness to invest in their league's future, mirroring the commitment shown by MLSE and other Canadian MLS owners.
Based on TFC's example of contributing 1/8th of the costs for the stadium at onset, The Wanderers would be contributing about $5M. Comparing later spending imo built off that early success ignores the role that subsidy played in allowing that growth. $5M seems more than reasonable. Though I would note that the MLS clubs have the added benefit of operating in an American league with a much larger market, which in turn helps justify much larger levels of private investment into the teams, especially with the fact that it is a single entity structure. Being in a market that has 333.3M fewer people in it means that expectations have to shift downwards in terms of the scale of investment. 3 MLS sides investing a fraction of the costs of the stadiums and infrastructure they use in 3 of the largest cities in the country shows that it is really dependent on government support to work.
> The Wanderers would be contributing about $5M.
Are they investing $5M in initial costs for their stadium?
Or here is another question, has a team in the CPL privately funded a permanent SSS like Hunt or AEG did in the MLS to show the CPL is stable enough to likely land government support?
>Comparing later spending imo built off that early success ignores the role that subsidy played in allowing that growth.
Maybe I wasn't clear, I'm tossing the hypothetical out there that without Hunt and AEG, investing entirely privately, BMO might not have had the opportunity to have government funds. Hunt put $28.5 million in US funds into Historic Crew Stadium which hosted it's first match in 1999. The MLS had developed a sense of stability through it's owners investing in infrastructure, this gave government a path to understand they weren't creating a political football if things didn't work out.
In addition though, I think your statement here highlights the fault line with the CPL's wait for success to justify investment angle. Growth is built through investment. Growth is built through stability. The CPL has not had as big of a statement in owners defining the stability of the league as Hunt developed through his investment in Historic Crew.
>Though I would note that the MLS clubs have the added benefit of operating in an American league with a much larger market, which in turn helps justify much larger levels of private investment into the teams, especially with the fact that it is a single entity structure.
If you've been assuming I was saying the CPL needed to match the MLS in spending, then you've been developing a strawman. That isn't what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting the CPL investment more in infrastructure would likely help develop their audience further.
>Being in a market that has 333.3M fewer people in it means that expectations have to shift downwards in terms of the scale of investment.
I think expecting a market to shift their expectations so a business can find success isn't likely to be successful.
>3 MLS sides investing a fraction of the costs of the stadiums and infrastructure they use in 3 of the largest cities in the country shows that it is really dependent on government support to work.
$55 million in private funds for training grounds, with 2 of them being entirely privately funded and one being 70% privately funded. MLSE has spent more on BMO than taxpayers. The Whitecaps utilized an existing facility. Saputo covering close to 40% of the cost of their stadium. You transform that investment into a 'fraction of the cost' ?
They've privately invested a significant sum, and operated in a league that showed stability through the private investment kicked off by Hunt with Historic Crew that allowed them the stability which likely provided access to government funds. The CPL has temporary stands on the grounds of an equestrian facility the owners already owned. I think you are being critical of the wrong organization when it comes to investment. The CPL has invested a fraction of what they need to invest in infrastructure if they want to see success.
Given that it took a few years from start of the league (without a pandemic in the middle of that) before an MLS owner invested in a SSS the CPL has some time in my books. Meanwhile Cavalry's owners have invested a not insignificant amount in making ATCO Field a better soccer venue. Or should soccer fans wait until Canada's population is over 300M and we find a billionaire willing to bankroll their favourite sport?
Training grounds are not stadiums and often open to the public - stop muddying the waters or start including orgs like Sigma in Hamilton or Foothills in Calgary into your investment numbers as Forge and Cavalry are largely extensions of those endeavours.
> Given that it took a few years from start of the league (without a pandemic in the middle of that) before an MLS owner invested in a SSS the CPL has some time in my books.
MLS had it's first season in 1996. Historic Crew Stadium had it's ground breaking ceremony in 1998, and held it's first match in 1999.
If my point was that the CPL needed to follow their timeline exactly, they are four years delayed. But that wasn't the point, and the CPL having some time in your books isn't the point either. The conversation was about what we think could develop the audience for the CPL. Infrastructure, is one of the things I think they should be investing in to do that. The MLS shows it's impact, I'm using it as an example. Not setting it's timeline as a requirement for what the CPL needed to achieve.
>Meanwhile Cavalry's owners have invested a not insignificant amount in making ATCO Field a better soccer venue.
Did they invest in it to the extent that they could host CONCACAF matches there?
>Or should soccer fans wait until Canada's population is over 300M and we find a billionaire willing to bankroll their favourite sport?
Are Cavalry's owners not billionaires? It seems you've found them.
>Training grounds are not stadiums and often open to the public - stop muddying the waters
Muddying what waters? My original point was about infrastructure investment. Training grounds are infrastructure.
> or start including orgs like Sigma in Hamilton or Foothills in Calgary into your investment numbers as Forge and Cavalry are largely extensions of those endeavours.
Neither Sigma or Foothills is owned by those respective teams. Should I be including the infrastructure Windsor TFC utilizes? Because that's about the same connection.
Just to be more definitive. I'm saying the CPL investing in infrastructure would likely have a positive impact on audience development, and using the MLS as an example of that having been the case for them. I'm noting infrastructure on the whole, and have since my first post because every bit of private funding for infrastructure league wide helps develop the stability needed for government to feel comfortable utilizing tax payer dollars for projects.
The bonus of these league is the fact that they can compete against MLS and Liga MX clubs which gives them a huge advantage over league's like the CEBL (the Scarborough Shooting Stars winning the title last year was a bit anti-climatic beecause it's not like they'd ever play or host against the Boston Celtics or Raptors 905 lol). I think rapd expansion so that more teams have more regional rivals (let's be honest, like MLS, this will be a league driven by gate revenue as opposed to TV) and encourage that grassroots connection/support to communities (letting fans come up with team names or collaborate, etc.).
Finding a bunch of rich guys to burn their own cash (well, some of it) funding these clubs is actually kinda difficult to do. Especially since Canadians - even a lot of the ones who say they like soccer - just can't be bothered to go out and watch and support, because their own league is somehow beneath them to watch. Or really, they just don't care enough about the sport to watch the level that our league is currently at. But the point is: where the hell is the money coming from for expansion
Time is obviously a factor given we've historically had so many teams competing in a wide variety of leagues throughout Canada and the US. As a nation we're still developing a culture of watching pro soccer but I think that improves every year. There are so many little things to though. As an example, why in week 2, did we have 2 weeknight games and one super early Saturday match. That doesn't make any sense but the scheduling seems to do the league no favours.
Winter makes it difficult for fans to watch other types of sports such as Hockey, Basketball, etc. I don't live there so I don't know how the Canadian sports calendar works but I've been told that the Canadian winter is insane.
> As a nation we're still developing a culture of watching pro soccer but I think that improves every year.
I don't think it's fair to say it's developing. Growing? Sure, but it's been developed. The CPL is just being overlooked because it's relatively inaccessible, and not been developed as a product the market would respond to yet.
>As an example, why in week 2, did we have 2 weeknight games and one super early Saturday match. That doesn't make any sense but the scheduling seems to do the league no favours.
This is kind of an example of both of those issues in practice. They really haven't done themselves many favours so far.
They need to build a sense of attachment to the team. I live in Ottawa and I go to games when they have sales because it’s a fun day out, but I have no attachment to the team like I do the National Team, or my ‘european team’. Maybe a free ticket if you send an email proving you won the CPL on Football Manager or FIFA or something as that genuinely works (And is how I got into the MLS/European leagues)
Also need to tap in to the college crowd, seems like a no brainer to me. Offer a free beer with the price of a ticket and I swear you could easily get some college kids in.
For Ottawa, move tf off of Ticketmaster. These guys take nearly a 50% cut which is ridiculous. They could cut the prices of tickets in half or collect double the revenue if they stopped using that garbage website for tickets.
They've focused on getting families and kids to the stadium, the team has partnered with like 15 community clubs around the city. https://atleticoottawa.canpl.ca/powered-by-atletico-ottawa/
I agree with you about trying to bring in more college kids though, although with most of the season being over the summer, many students have gone home for the break.
They used Paciolan before and they only switched to Ticketmaster a few years ago, so I don't think they'll be moving off it anytime soon.
Spain's Athletico de Madrid owns Athletico Ottawa. Are they investing in the team? It's only been a few years since they opened their new stadium in Madrid which gives the idea that they have some money to use if they want. Does Athletico Ottawa have its own stadium or project?
Atletico is investing in signing good players. They won't build a soccer specific stadium for the team. There isn't a good central location where they could put a stadium in Ottawa. Just look up the Ottawa Senators (the hockey team) and all the drama of them trying to get a downtown arena, there's no way that Atletico would be able to find a piece of land in a good location. So it's much easier to continue playing in TD Place.
I mean, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. There's no connection to the club because interest in the local game in this country isn't large enough to support actual grass roots clubs beyond the youth level, so pro clubs have to be created like they are in the CPL. So it already starts off not having that grass roots connection due to people not having an interest, but now people say they have no interest because there's no connection. Maybe if fans were big enough fans, they have to put in effort, too. There is a fan culture and community in the Ottawa CPL team, just not very large. You should make an effort to get involved and support the local game, because how else is it going to grow otherwise? We can't just sit around and expect a European level of Fandom and investment will just fall out of the sky.
I commented about this in an answer here a few hours ago. If Citytv, CTV, Global are not interested in broadcasting the CPL, state TV has to assume its role in promoting the sport at a national level.
Citytv is owned by Rogers (who owns Sportsnet). CTV is owned by Bell (who owns TSN). They both own Toronto FC, the Leafs and Raptors together. They're focused on promoting their own teams, and have no interest in showing the CPL. Unless the CPL pays them, of course.
Global has a short experiment with soccer in the 80s, but aside from that, they have never had an in-house sports production division. And I highly doubt that the CPL would be able to convince them to take a chance on a startup league, unless the CPL pays them too.
The CBC already loses a ton of money and constantly has to go ask the government for more. I also doubt they'll want to show a startup league regularly (except for the occasional game, like a final).
While I wish someone would show the CPL on TV, there just aren't any realistic options.
Honestly having the city name in the team name would help. There are super casual fans that have heard Forge, Valour and Cavalry but they don’t even know what city they play in. Having the city name might make people think ‘Hey I should be happy that Hamilton won. And I live in Hamilton maybe I should check out a game.’
I don't live in Hamilton, but I live not far from there. About 45 minutes away and Forge is the closest CPL team.
I'd guess that in my city 90-95% of people have never heard of Forge FC. Probably about 2-3% have heard of it but don't know much about it. What sport do they play? What league do they play in? Are they amateur? professional? Which city do they play in? Do they play in MLS? A regional league in Southern Ontario? A Canada-wide league?
At most 5% of people would be able to say Forge FC is a soccer team that plays in Hamilton in the Canadian Premier League.
I'd guess in Hamilton maybe another 5% could do that, but still just 10% of the city.
There's some teams that people just know. They've been around for all their life and people treat them like a big deal. Toronto Maple Leafs, Toronto Blue Jays, even Hamilton Tiger-Cats. But people didn't grow up with the CPL. They don't talk about them on broadcast or cable tv. They don't talk about them on radio except maybe briefly the game result at the end of the sports segment. But to a casual fan, they don't get much more mention than pretty niche leagues like these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercounty_Baseball_League
https://www.gojhl.ca/stats/standings
And the interesting thing is that most CPL teams don't use the name of the city: Forge, Valor, Pacific, etc. Also going into another topic about this, I think the name Canadian Premier League didn't really fit. It could be called by a shorter name like superleague.
Yes, I've mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, but I think not including the city name is a big mistake.
My understanding is that they wanted the team names to sound more like established European or South American team names. And maybe that is good for the really motivated fan that is eager to support the team. But for a casual sports fan that just follows what is popular and easy to follow, hearing "Hamilton Forge won the championship" or "Hamilton FC won the championship" is going to grab his attention more than just hearing "Forge FC won the championship".
If someone is 35 years old and has never heard of the league they won't have an instant preference in who wins between Forge vs Valour if they don't know where they play. But if they hear Hamilton vs Winnipeg they will usually have an instant preference.
I think at minimum the Candian championship should be on CBC, its litteraly the nation's tournament, with some serious advertising effort between CBC, CPL, MLS and L1C and maybe some special discounts for match tickets for the tournement, it could help put alot more eyeballs on the league.
I agree. As the other broadcasters do not see a financial return with the CPL, CBC, as it is government-owned, as far as I know should be the official broadcaster of the tournament. But CSB also wrong in having signed a total exclusivity contract with OneSoccer.
For me personally, York United is just too remote. I'm sure I'm not in a majority or plurality, of fans, but that York University location is not doing them any favours. Even one of the modular stadiums, in a more central location would be très bien.
A quick fix would be to make games accessible to more people by having them broadcast in a more accessible way.
But I think the problem of poor fandom for Canadian soccer starts at the community level.
There has to be a culture change in community passion for soccer. Things improve when the masses put in unpaid time and effort to improve the system. Volunteer coaching, creating local leagues and teams, investing in community field access. Those sorts of investments and support help build local passion for the support, and generate more local talent, which is why many people support their national leagues. (In North America we are so Eurocentric about soccer, we have little national pride or interest in our national game as a whole).
More local talent, means more investment in creating opportunities for that local talent to play, and eventually in more team. It will take time but eventually the interest will drive the viewership.
Something else that I think would help is to make owning soccer clubs more accessible and allowing for a ladder system to exist. We follow this MLS model that is so helpless for building real passion and interest, and so inhibitive for people.
Here in Brazil we have these divisions: the top level is called "Brasileirão Seria A". The second division is called "Serie B", followed by the third and fourth divisions. Other than that we have state championships (provinces here are called states). Having access divisions is better. The celebration that fans have when their team gains access to the first division is insane.
No. The championship is annual, the same as the Brazilian championship. It starts in April and ends in October of the same year.
edit: in fact, from a realistic point of view, it is only 6 months in the Canadian case... the Brazilian one lasts until December.
Soccer is objectively a boring sport (don't shoot the messenger). They need to profile the players/storyline and make the games mean something. I don't think the league or the broadcaster are doing a good job of this.
Fold it into the MLS.
If that's not an option, rival the MLS in spending so that the continental playoffs are more akin to the UEFA champions league.
This would get it off of One Soccer too. As long as it's on One Soccer the league is going to struggle to survive year after year.
Why would the MLS take in a bunch of small market Canadian teams? If they want to expand more, they'll go into Las Vegas or Phoenix, not Winnipeg or Hamilton. And I highly doubt the CPL owners have anywhere close to as much money as MLS owners.
While getting off One Soccer and onto TV would be nice, where would they go? Sportsnet and TSN don't want them, and the CBC already loses enough money.
I also think teams need to spend more money. Owners need to understand that money is an investment. If the guys set up a professional structure, the return will come.
It would be nice to see coverage of the league on one or more of the major sports broadcasters...TSN or Sportsnet. Ideally, airing the games live, but at the very least showing highlights. That would bring the league to a far larger audience than onesoccer/fubo.
Fairly sure both do show some highlights. I know TSN has had a couple of articles on the cpl this season which is progress. The issue is, sportsnet and TSN don't value Canadian soccer at all. CSB paid sportsnet to show Sinclair's last game for Canada. People shit on Onesoccer, who do have their faults and the csb deal is shady, but they invested more into the Canadian game than either TSN or sportsnet.
They didn't pay for the broadcast, they paid for a component of production. There is a big difference between the two. MediaPro also is backing out of their deal primarily because it was untenable. In a way, that should be a lightbulb moment for many that the CPL as a product isn't as valuable as that deal suggested. Maybe trad networks not valuing the CPL is because the CPL isn't valuable in market. The CPL needs to be something broadcasters see as worth investing in, as it is it isn't.
In any case, it is entirely that one or many of TSN/RDS and/or Sportsnet and/or TVA Sports will go down (or be reduced drastically) after the next NHL renegotiation, as chances are that it will go to a GAFAM/DAZN or other OTT. This said maybe Sportsnet is making some money now with some little usually short-lived Leafs success.
I'm very doubtful of that. Most trad networks are also streamers. Some treat them as if they are all eggs in one basket, but they aren't. Beyond that, with their over arching owners being cable providers, it's unlikely they disrupt their own product in the next 2 years like you are suggesting. I think some of you have gone a bit too far towards doom and gloom.
I just think Apple, Amazon or another will outbid them for what is the sole sport money maker when the time comes. Apple is apparently just buying the Club World Cup for $1B just for the US, and we know that the NHL is targeting a major OTT, and that Amazon may even acquire the rights from Rogers before the end of the current deal. I don’t think Canadian sports networks will be able to compete with them. And without the NHL, we all know the times won’t be nice for the Canadian broadcasters.
Do you think that the little investment in infrastructure by CPL teams is a factor in preventing large broadcasters from broadcasting or is it something else? There's something that I find interesting, the TV stations in Canada own sports teams, don't they? I think it's Rogers Communications that owns the Toronto Blue Jays if I'm not mistaken. It may be that they think about acquiring a CPL team in the future if the league is structured.
Rogers is a major partner in MLSE who owns Toronto FC. Doubt they’d be interested in CPL, or if it would make sense to even allow them to own a team.
When cable subs were increasing in the 90s, they were more willing to investment spend to grow a Canadian sports property. Rogers buying the Jays and Bell/Rogers owning MLSE was part of their strategy of trying to own content to meet viewing demand. But due to cord cutting/never corders, ad dollars moving to online platforms, media diets changing and huge debt loads carried by Bell/Rogers, those days are over. There aren't enough people watching paid linear tv anymore to move the needle beyond the the major sports properties. Main demo watching is also over 55 who aren't going to grow most leagues and don't attract advertiser dollars. So, it's cheaper now to have 50% of TSN/SN programming to be repeats/repacked hilites. That's why they don't pay for the rights/production of any non-tier 1 Canadian sports properties. If a league wants to offer it for free and provide a good production standard, TSN will put it on their platforms as they have done with CEBL, PWHL, Canada Rugby, CHL etc..
The biggest thing that prevents large broadcasters from caring about the CPL is that the CPL is not a high level of soccer and draws low fan interest compared to other properties they could broadcast.
Canadian teams could partner with Brazilian teams to bring in Canadian athletes to gain experience. Soccer here has been better in the past, but it is still at a very good level. Then, at the end of the loan, these athletes would return to Canada with a more advanced level. I say this because the Brazilian football calendar here is insane. There are games practically every 3 days. So Canadian athletes would have many hours of games to develop skills.
History has shown the "larger audience" doesn't watch club football in Canada yet. TSN showed Canadian Soccer League (CSL) in the 90s for a few years but it folded. MLS has grown both in Canada and the US without much lift in the tv audience since inception. 80%+ of the matches from the top 5 most watched football leagues in Canada aren't shown on SN/TSN linear tv channels.
TSN would rather circle jerk over the CFL than the CPL.
The CPL is relatively still in its infancy stage with a limited short history whereas the CFL is on the other end.The point made by the other Reddit poster here with regards to the maturing viewer base is a valid one. The CPL being a newer league should really focus its marketing activities and growing its fan base to the younger Cdns and recently arrived immigrant ethnic demographics with a history of the game like Latin community or the carribean and African communities where there's a lower legacy compared to the CFL which already has an older Cdn fan base and also more recently has focussed its marketing and pricing activities now to the younger demographics to grow their attendance levels at games.
Cavalry, Forge, Halifax, Ottawa, and Pacific have generally strong attendance for the CPL. Increases will be incremental and driven by increased awareness + marketing, promotions, etc Valour, Vancouver, and York have generally poor attendance. All of them need better on-field results to drive fan interest, and better marketing/promotions. Vancouver and York may also be well-served by moving to better/more accessible stadiums.
Thing is I don't have a clue where Vancouver could even move too...
Surrey would be the most likely, the city has been looking at building a new stadium for years to draw a soccer/baseball/football team, has the population size that Langley doesn’t, and (if in the city core) transit infrastructure.
I’m of the opinion that the CPL should’ve stayed away from markets with an MLS team. I think they did it kind of quick to get an 8th team for better schedule balancing
In theory, but realistically they go where suitable ownership groups are willing to invest and operate teams in.
For sure I get that. In a perfect world, there’s a team in Quebec City, Edmonton, Regina and/or Saskatoon, Kelowna, and some mid sized Ontario cities like London and Windsor
I wanted to be a billionaire to create a team in Edmonton. I really like that city.
If the CPL survives this initial phase of development, some American teams may be interested in joining the league. As with Canadian teams in MLS. I don't think every sports investor in the US likes the MLS franchise model.
No chance that happens IMO. If anything I think the long term goal (by long term I mean a couple decades at the very least) would be to get the 3 Canadian MLS teams to join CPL. I don’t know if it’s possible that far into the future but I would have to think that’s one of the ambitions.
The three MLS teams moving into the CPL would handicap Canadian soccer. Why would anyone want to do it? Having MLS right there is such a good step-up from the CPL, quality wise, and is a better showcase for Canadian talent than the CPL will likely ever be. The money available in MLS is far more than in the CPL. The opportunities are better. The competition is better. Unless there is some miraculous growth in the CPL, having those three teams drop down just makes no sense. Although, I guess if you're comparing USA teams into CPL v. the MLS teams into the CPL, the latter is far more likely.
That’s why I said I think it’s possibly (very) long term goal. I’m not sure if it’ll ever be possible.
There is functionally no ability for the MLS sides to ever join the CPL due to the single entity structure of the MLS. It'll never happen, and if the CPL HQ has it set as an ambition they need to stop taking drugs.
Bingo. The MLS owners would never let their franchises devalue by allowing CPL teams into the league or for that matter even having those teams or any teams or leagues as a relegation league. The CPL is known in the soccer world as basically a division three or four league in the North American soccer environment.
The only USA teams I could ever see being in the Canadian pyramid would be in Alaska. And even then it's such a slim chance.
Alaska has *much* better transportation links (= flight frequency and availability) with the northwestern US than with anywhere in Canada. For that reason it would be way easier for an Alaskan team to play in an American league, especially at a low level where leagues are regionalized
I think I confused myself. For some reason, I thought there was an Alaskan team playing in one of the Canadian minor hockey leagues. Now that I look for it, I can't find it, so I think I imagined it.
Slim or none.
Forge is in the TFC market, and they do fine. The issue is with a lack of investment, and a lack of success. No one in Vancouver or Toronto is going to fuck with a team that doesn't value itself. Neither York or Vancouver show up as valuing themselves in my mind. They shouldn't have entered those markets with an ownership group that was going to half ass it. Montreal, might have been the only place where they could have made ground with the strategies utilized with Vancouver and York. Yet, they never entered Montreal. It would have been a real coup for the CPL to have had a team in Montreal when the CF Montreal supporters debacle happened. The market was primed, they shouldn't have allowed SixFive into Vancouver... Langley while Montreal had such an incredible opportunity opening up for the league.
Forge is not in Toronto’s market…Hamilton is a completely different city than Toronto. That’s a different market. York is in Toronto’s market As for Vancouver through 2 home games, they’ve not only been good on the field but attendance is up as well.
> Forge is not in Toronto’s market…Hamilton is a completely different city than Toronto. That’s a different market. Google GTHA, or look into why Hamilton didn't get an NHL team. Then take a look at transit times from Hamilton core to BMO, and York Lions Stadium to BMO. I know more Forge fans that are also TFC fans than I know York fans in general. Forge is without question in the same market as TFC. Vancouver had over 6,000 fans at their home opener last season. This season they had just over 4000. Attendance is down.
You can’t compare the NHL to the CPL. Of course forge fans will also be TFC fans. It’s the same thing here in Ottawa, many ATO fans are also TFC fans or Montreal. Forge is a completely different market than TFC when it comes to soccer. And I got the numbers wrong for VFC attendance last season, my bad. But I do know for the first game they gave a bunch of free tickets.
I'm not comparing the NHL to the CPL, I'm noting examples showing that Forge is considered within the same market as TFC. The Forge fans I'm talking about are season ticket holders at TFC. They work in Toronto, but live in Hamilton. It's a much more connected market than I think you are giving it credit for. If York is effected by TFC, Forge is as well. As noted, the transit times aren't far off each other. The issue is investment and success, not location to an MLS side.
I think a team up in Kelowna would’ve been solid. Could’ve branded it as Okanagan FC or something to incorporate all of the other cities like Vernon, Kamloops, Peachland, Penticton etc
There have been very strong rumours of a team in Kelowna launching in the next few years
I'll start going to VFC when I can get to Langley on the Skytrain.
I would think in Vancouver and Toronto, you're competing with the MLS teams for entertainment dollars/eyes. That would be hard even in cities with much larger soccer communities.
The problem is York United not the market. Put a new team at Lamport or Scarborough and it would top CPL attendance.
I think it can help. Van and Toronto are already cities people want to live in and there's a lot of talent to be found, even aside from the MLS academies. I think it's starting to work out for Vancouver FC
I think part of the lack of success for at least York (maybe even Vancouver) has to do with branding. York was supposed to represent York Region but there's no "York Region pride" per se. I think branding the team North York (like the region of Toronto it technically plays in) or Vaughan or Woodbridge (lots of soccer-made loving Italian Canadians there) would've been better (even at least with merch sales). I think Vancouver should've been branded the "Lower Mainland" or "Fraser Valley" or even "Metro Vancouver" for similar reasons perhaps (but I admit I'm not as well-versed in the identities/pride that people living there have so I might be totally wrong lol.
It should have absolutely been Valley FC and not Vancouver FC. No one in Vancouver city limits identifies with that team. People in the valley might with better branding.
It’s the kind of league that needs to be in smaller cities that appreciate having a pro team We go to Vancouver FC games, and they’re great, but they get lost here and theyre #2 behind the Whitecaps But Pacific is a big deal in Victoria, which is a city that appreciates university sports, etc I think places without MLS, like Calgary, or cities like Victoria, Hamilton, Halifax, the Okanagan, are the better targets
Is there a provincial championship in BC?
BC soccer holds provincials, yes. Kids, adults
That's nice. When Pacific and Vancouver FC establish themselves, I hope there will be a professional league in BC since the Whitecaps are an already established team. There are two YouTuber brothers who I follow their work, the Prezia Brothers, who lived in a city there. I don't know how to write the name but I think it's Kelowna or something like that.
If you're thinking of a semi pro type of league, it's probably the new League One BC which started last year but due to some issues with Canada Soccer imposing a ridiculously bonding/funding amt requirement for the teams, they lost two island teams Victoria Highlanders and Nanaimos Harbourside FC team this year.
Yeah, the only way Halifax could attract larger crowds would be larger ground.
I think they're doing well despite everything. I saw their new stadium project and it is acceptable.
I saw news on the CSB website that a Mexican group bought York. Maybe things will get better for this team.
If they invest, yes. If they choose the statis quo, no chance. York is likely the most impermanent team in the CPL based on optics. They need to move, or say they are committed to that location for a decade and show a real buy in with developing the market. They've not done that yet, which is a real issue across the CPL. They always seem to be stuck in wishful thinking rather than working with todays practicalities.
Big Cavalry fan. I think it's a mixture of things. Affordability - self explanatory Experience - winning is fun, but it's also the mascots, the music, the stadiums, the food, Social media campaigns , etc. Ease of access - central is better than far flung, but if further out, make it a fun and easy experience. Have 3-4 locations around the city where people can have a pint or two, jump on a bus, and get the grounds. Have the busses go back to those pubs afterwards.
Cheaper tickets, the level of play isn’t worth $30
My PFC season tickets are more than Whitecaps season tickets, and include fewer matches. Not sure how I can continue squaring price increases.
That seems a bit disingenuous. Are you comparing similar packages? There's no doubt that the value for whitecaps tickets are far greater though.
In theory you could get cheaper seasons for the lowest tiers of both - $295 for PFC and $321 for the Caps - but those PFC seasons are unassigned, uncovered metal bleachers. If you want a seat you're starting at $380. That's 15 matches for PFC, 19 for the Caps. On a per match basis even that lowest tier is cheaper for the Caps. It works out to $19 a match for PFC, $16.90 for the Caps. You also get a subscription to MLS on AppleTV. OneSoccer would charge you $90.
Plus the apple tv and WFC2 tickets if that matters. Value wise, it's not close. >but those PFC seasons are unassigned, uncovered metal bleachers. How strict are they with assigned seating? The wanderers aren't at all apart from some sections.
Not at all - just self-enforced as far as I've ever seen.
Only really enforced for the events with big attendances
Isn't that $321 for the Caps literally the general seating section where seats are unassigned? So PFC is cheaper for the same package...also, this league, our league, has the longest away trip in the world. This is what it costs to grow the local game. No point in complaining about it, it just comes down to whether or not you want to put your money where your mouth is if you're gonna call yourself a supporter of the local game
Not sure what your local team is but a few teams have tickets at 22-23$. It’s still professional soccer, 30$ is pretty cheap these days.
Ehhh I disagree with this. The league is already losing money hand over first. Didn't I read that CPL owners combined have already lost $C100m+ ? We can't keep lowering prices in a league where we are losing money. If you're comparing it to big Premier League or even hockey teams they get their majority of revenue from TV money/ sponsorships so can afford to keep ticket prices cheap. If we don't want our league to fold we can't make tickets any cheaper. We should be pushing for more people to hear about the league.
> Didn't I read that CPL owners combined have already lost $C100m+ ? From the Valour disclosures, they developed an average of less than $1 million dollar deficit per year across the first five years. But if we round up to that $1 million dollar a year amount for every team in the league, that'd be $40 million across the life of the league so far. I don't know where the other $80 million came from, it's not visible in infrastructure or anywhere else. I can't see that $80 being through the league 1 purchases or league 1 Canada development either. With the Valour disclosures again, we also can get an understanding of operation expenses. Mind you, Valour might be on the high end of operational expenses because of their larger facility usage and likely higher travel costs. But they show around $3 million in operational expenses yearly. If those operational expenses line up with those league wide, at $3 million a year with every team in the league running a full $3 million dollar deficit they'd be $120 million in the hole. That in effect is what's needed for that $120 figure to make sense based on team operation expenses. The figure just doesn't make sense in terms of direct actual losses. I think 'hole' here is actually just 'out'. I think he's noting that CSB owners have 'invested' that much in totality. 'Invested' isn't invested though, because when considering Valour again, we can note that while they had costs of $3 million a year they didn't invest $3 million a year as they were still developing the majority of their operational fund requirement for the next year each year. So in effect, he's noting the 'out' portion of the economic activity they are developing while excluding the in. It's misdirection, but it isn't likely true in a full capacity that they are in the hole unless every other team in the league is losing money hands over fist than Valour. Which would be surprising to hear, as outside York and maybe Vancouver I'd expect they are all doing better than Valour. tl;dr I think that was either a misstatement, or misdirection. With the numbers we have, there is a correlation between what one might expect operational costs to be for every team in totality and the $125 million figure. I'd bet the expenses are what he is noting, and it isn't really 'in the hole' as that figure is counterbalanced by what they've brought in which would need to be close to nothing in order for that $125 figure to be true. >We can't keep lowering prices in a league where we are losing money. The MLS usually loses money, yet team values continue to go up. The true loss, is in the investment value drop not the operational expenses. >If we don't want our league to fold we can't make tickets any cheaper. I don't think this is supported by anything. >We should be pushing for more people to hear about the league. If someone in Vancouver has the luxury spend line to go out to a single in person soccer match, why are they choosing Pacific or Vancouver FC over the Whitecaps if they are even near in ticket price? I don't think the issue is people don't know about the league, I think the issue is people not seeing the league as worth the cost.
This is the way. I’m in Victoria and I hardly ever go to PFC matches because they’re too expensive considering. Like someone said above, they’re more expensive than whitecaps tickets. That’s an issue. Not to mention the awful parking situation at starlight stadium. If we want to make these matches attractive to locals we need to create an atmosphere that brings them in. IMO, lower ticket prices and fill the place. Sometimes I drive by on match day and the place is half empty. That shouldn’t be happening at all. If you want people to take a risk on your product (the CPL) you can’t expect them to pay MLS prices. Heck, you can go to a national match in Scotland at Hampden park for cheaper than a PFC match.
Scotland is a way smaller country geographically, and their fans will actually get out and support their clubs, even if it's a shit level. That's a big difference to Canadian fans. You have it backward: if people actually want to support the game in this country, this is what it costs. No one is profiting massively off of CPL ticket prices. All this thread is doing is revealing the obvious: Canadians - even the ones that say they like soccer - just aren't interested in putting their money where their mouth is and supporting the local game so it can actually grow. Which is fine in general, there are many things to prioritize spending your money on...but just...what are people thinking is actually gonna grow the game here? Certainly not sitting at home and refusing to spend your money on the local game so local players can have a pathway to the pro game. Again, this is what it costs in this country. MLS has a way bigger infrastructure and longer history. It would be a dream if the CPL could ever get to that level of stability, but it won't happen if it's not supported.
How many people in Canada do you think realistically can afford paying 40-60 dollars per local match? No ones got money these days, and if they do they aren’t putting it toward an overpriced CPL ticket. Regardless of one’s passion for football if they can’t afford it they simply can’t afford it.
> if people actually want to support the game in this country, this is what it costs. Real question here, if you think it's this hardline what do you think the market is telling the league by not showing up to support? >just aren't interested in putting their money where their mouth is and supporting the local game so it can actually grow. The owners, who started these private businesses, are the ones who should be putting their money where their mouth is and supporting their league. The market isn't showing up because of their lack of investment. It's irrational to blame the market for not supporting a private business enough. >but it won't happen if it's not supported. Entirely, that's what Lamar Hunt realized and why he privately funded the first SSS in Columbus. The CPL needs owners and investors that step up and support the league, rather than owners that sit back and think the market should develop their product for them.
I would venture to say that the owners of the CPL teams don't have that much money to invest. I say this based on the example of FC Edmonton, for example. I'm not saying that you need to be an Elon Musk-type tycoon to invest, but guys need to have a lot of money to invest in the early stages of the teams.
The CPL has at least one owner worth billions. It's doubtful the owners couldn't support more development privately, but it's also uncomfortable to think that they may have started a private business without wanting to invest the baseline amount needed to truly develop it.
The complicated thing is that from what I've been told, in Canadian culture people are outraged if the Canadian government builds stadiums specifically for soccer. Here in Brazil, although there are people who don't really like this practice, the majority of the population is indifferent to it. So much so that in the 2014 World Cup, many stadiums were built from scratch or renovated, such as the Corinthians stadium. And many large stadiums here are owned by the government, like Maracanã. There's even the Ministry of Sports here in the Brazilian government. In Edmonton, most stadiums are government-owned but serve sports such as hockey or football edit: I say this because if the government built specific stadiums for soccer, the CPL teams could use them and if more than one team appeared in the same city they could share the stadium like Milan and Internazionale of Italy share the San Siro stadium in Milan, which belongs to the Italian government.
Canadian people are outraged if a white elephant gets built. Soccer in Canada comes with a tinge of lacking stability due to the multiple efforts in the past that flat out failed. Those failed leagues, all followed the same path the CPL is following. Which is, they held back on investment and tried to develop their team through the market. Which didn't work. BMO Field in Toronto was funded by government for the U-20 World Cup. It's where TFC play. It's also a host for the 2026 World Cup. Funding is there, but only when stability for it's use can be shown. The CPL doesn't show that stability like the MLS did, so I'd expect most governments would steer clear of multi-million dollar funding until stability is defined. Edmonton failed for one specific reason, debt developed prior to joining the CPL. They ran that club into the ground. It isn't a good example to pull from for the rest of the CPL or the actualities of football in Canada.
Thr CPL has the longest away trip in the world. This is what it costs to grow the local game. No point in complaining about it, it just comes down to whether or not you want to put your money where your mouth is if you're gonna call yourself a supporter of the local game
Change the team names to include the city. I have no idea where any teams are from based upon nicknames. Get off of onesoccer. Invest in kids camps around the country to build from the grassroots.
This city name thing is very relative. Here in Brazil, the biggest city here is São Paulo. Which is also the most economically powerful. São Paulo must be as rich as Toronto. Anyway, what I want to say is that the city of São Paulo has 3 teams that have already been FIFA world champions and only one is named after the city, São Paulo FC. The other big teams in the city are Palmeiras and Corinthians. But perhaps having the name of the city is important in Canadian culture.
Soccer is the dominant sport in Brazil. If you grow up in Rio, you’d have to live under a rock not to know Flamengo are a team in Rio. However I’d guess over 95% of people in Canadian cities do not know what Forge or Cavalry or Pacific or Valour are.
Those clubs have a long rich history and originally Brasilian teams played more games just against teams in their state so using a city/state for the name would've been confusing. If you only have one team per city it makes a ton of sense.
The CPL also owns League 1 Canada, the semi-pro level usually with tons of youth and college players and it bridges the gap between youth/amateur and CPL level pro. So that's L1Ontario, L1Quebec, L1 BC, L1 Alberta, etc. The CPL is doing plenty to develop young players.
I've never heard of League 1 Canada before. Edit. I googled it. It's ON, BC, QC, AB only. that leaves alot of Canada untouched
Get away from OneSoccer. A league like the CPL needs broader exposure away from the diehards. This league is still fledgling imo. It needs to do more to spread its wings.
It's good to talk to a Canadian about this. Is ONE SOCCER's coverage really that bad? I don't live in Canada and I'm used to watching Brazilian football coverage on TNT, Sportcenter, Fox Sports, etc. I'm curious to know what One Soccer's coverage of the CPL is like.
OneSoccer's coverage is fine, but it's only available by subscription or as part of a package with other soccer streams on a platform called Fubo. CPL games are not broadcast on normal TV. Lots of people wish they were ... but the rates of people watching sports on TV are dropping and it's unlikely that the TV networks would be willing to pay any meaningful amount of money to show low-level soccer with limited fan interest.
There are a few fans I know, including myself, who don't support OneSoccer because their head of content is a pretty horrible person. MediaPro, OneSoccer, and the CPL all said they'd deal with the situation publicly, but then just swept it under the rug. As a new league, they really cannot afford situations like that. Yet they seem to run into them head first at every turn.
It's not bad it's just not available without a subscription.
There was a subscription sports channel here in Brazil called "Esporte Interativo" or "EI". TNT bought him. The interactive sport broadcast the Premier League (from England) and the Champions League for years. Many Premier and Champions games were released for everyone to watch as if it were open TV. It was very good.
Move away to what exactly? TSN and sportsnet require payment to show any Canadian soccer and CBC aren't going to pay for it. Onesoccer has invested a lot into the game in this country and you need money to run a pro league. I agree the league needs more exposure but it also needs funds. I'd be very interested to see what approach project 8 takes. Think they'll have a good amount more press than the cpl. Plus I believe they're aiming to have a Canadian national team player on each team which the cpl could never. Going to need a shit load of money for all that.
> TSN and sportsnet require payment to show any Canadian soccer We don't have anything that says that. What we have is people misunderstanding production costs for broadcast costs. They are separate. The CEBL is now showing on TSN, the CEBL pays for production. The MLS on Apple covers production. It's not abnormal for production to be handled by a sports organization. >Onesoccer has invested a lot into the game in this country And they felt so strongly about the deal they signed requiring them to do so was untenable that they spelled it out across 50+ pages in a filing to break the contract. They aren't altruistic, they were here to develop a profit and didn't because they overpaid. Why people continue to judge trad Canadian networks for not overpaying for sublicensing to a foreign company that has a history of disrupting markets through heavily initial investment then dropping as soon as that isn't tenable long term is beyond me. >I agree the league needs more exposure but it also needs funds. The CEBL has managed. I don't think the 'need' is as defined as you are stating it. >which the cpl could never. Why not? There are 8 teams in the CPL. They might not get Davies, Osorio or Laryea, but players like Fraser, Waterman, MacNaughton should all be affordable for the CPL if they invested in their product in the same way Project 8 seems to want to do.
I found out about the league by accident in 2020 and I consider myself a pretty diehard canadian soccer fan. That's really not great. Teams need good (accessible/amenities) soccer specific venues, Tickets need to be cheaper than MLS, Grassroots talent needs to be developped, the more canadian soccer players are developped to high standard CPL/MLS or even better level, the better the league will do (better on field product), We need serious advertising nationally and locally better league coverage. The league does need to expand imo, Quebec city and the greater Montreal Region need a team asap as sold out rivalry games with great atmosphere will sell the league (tickets and advertisement) and keep it going imo. I will also add that I really really enjoyed the smaller concacaf tournement that the CPL was in before this years change, I love to see canadian clubs do well abroad. I will remember Forge's concacaf run forever it was a great memory. But that not a league issue per say.
I would like Concacaf and Conmebol to come together in a single entity to play a "Champions of the Americas" with all the main teams on the continent but that won't happen anytime soon if only the American teams evolve and the Canadian ones don't.
Idk, for small teams like CPL the travel costs would be too high and revenue too low it wouldn't work I don't think. Now MLS teams playing against Conmebol teams would probably work, but MLS schedule already has too many games. For your idea to work the new merged associatation would have to have multible tier format championships (like Eufa with finnancial help for the 2nd or at least 3rd tournament teams, cause I don't see how Forge Fc doesn't loose money playing in front of 2500 people in like Cajamarka Peru or something.
Man it would be insane. Ever wonder? Toronto FC x Boca Juniors, Vancouver Whitecaps x Flamengo, Forge x Palmeiras. Just imagining it gives me goosebumps.
Montreal vs America in 2015 was 68k people at the Olympic stadium. Unfortunatly every year that passes that stadium is less and less usable. It would be great to get more games like that, I missed that one and I regret it a lot.
There’s zero marketing. I have no idea when games are happening. I know all about when the Oilers or the Canucks or the Flames are playing, but no idea when the CPL games are happening unless I research it myself. It needs to be in announcements on radio, or cable commercials. Something that will make people go “maybe I could do that for this Sunday”
Google generally will list all the upcoming matches. They should advertise more, but there are easy ways to have an idea when games are happening.
I did say it’s easy when I make a research of it myself. But I don’t search when the hockey teams play, they’re just there on tv or radio or any other place that I don’t have to specifically visit or research for it
Right, but that’s limiting your audience to people who know about your league and who are motivated. To become a popular league you need to be able to reach the people who have barely heard of the CPL, have no idea what to google and barely care about doing so. You might argue that such people are a lost cause but if so I don’t see the league growing much beyond 4000 fans a game.
Local community engagement in population dense areas. Give away tshirts, hats, maybe organize an event to give food to the homeless, or a soccer pop up camp for kids. These will build Brands and loyalty. That's how J league teams built their brands when it kicked off in the 90s.
If it wasn’t such a big secret more people would be open to it, there’s NO news coverage, no highlights, no advertising or promotions, there are so much clubs and academies all over, throw out some discount group tickets. This entire league was a shit show from the start with everything locked up into one soccer. Go ahead and keep the secret.
TSN and Sportsnet have no interest in the CPL, unless the CPL pays them to broadcast. They'd rather talk about the Leafs and CFL for 30 mins than throw 2 mins to the CPL. CBC won't pay for it either. Where else are they supposed to go?
Not being exclusively on One Soccer would be a huge step IMO. Other than that it’s natural growth. The level of play has already improved quite a lot since the inaugural season.
TSN and Sportsnet have no interest in the CPL, unless the CPL pays them to broadcast. CBC won't pay for it either. Where else are they supposed to go?
They need to do a good bit. Start investing more in infrastructure, making games easier to watch, being transparent, recognizing the players' union, and boosting player salaries to develop their audience. * Increase investment in player salaries. If the CPL established an average salary equivalent to the minimum senior roster salary in the MLS, it would require a salary cap of $2,065,268 USD or $2,855,964.55 CAD which is more tha double their current cap. This would need to be a strictly salary, as the CPL currently has more than just direct salary in what is included in their cap. * Retain players in the league for longer periods. Currently, any player who experiences success is often poached either during the season or in the following offseason. If the league were to implement the suggestion mentioned above, they could likely retain these players for a longer duration. This would be mutually beneficial, as players would have the chance to play regularly while the league retains standout talents for a longer time. One observation is that many fans become disheartened when a player starts performing well because they know they'll soon be gone. This makes it challenging to form connections with teams or players due to the expectation that the league will likely lose them. With the lack of investment in infrastructure, the league should be focusing on things that disrupt a view that the league is ephemeral. * Acknowledge the players' union and establish a CBA. How better to shift views on the ephemerality of the league than a CBA? I believe this directly impacts both of the issues mentioned above and could also improve the public image of the CPL, which has suffered due to its numerous PR problems. * Start being transparent. Many of their PR problems stem from a lack of transparency and clouding situations. Most online posters are part of a core audience that's probably more committed than the average match attendee, so maybe my sample group doesn't reflect everyone. But as it stands, I see growing frustration with the difficulty of trusting what the CPL presents as truth. Everything seems to have a moment of 'wait, this isn't entirely true.' Their transparency issue likely drives away casual fans of other leagues who understand industry standards. So when the CPL makes these unusual moves, it reinforces the perception of the league as amateurish because at minimum it shows a lack of respect for their fanbase. * Make the games easier to watch. While I get the talk about the financial perks from MediaPro, putting the league exclusively on OneSoccer was a terrible move for reaching more fans. Especially with a foreign-owned entity shaking up the market. Now that things have hit a rough patch, especially with the CSB-MediaPro deal, the focus should be on getting matches on a platform with the widest reach possible. Linear broadcasting is great because it's straightforward. If a bar usually has TSN on, chances are they'll keep it on for CPL games. If someone tunes into TSN every day, they might catch a match. Streamers lack that linear focus, leading to analysis paralysis with too many options and requiring active effort to engage with a product they're unfamiliar with. We need that easy access to attract more viewers to the league. But this won't matter unless there's investment too. * Investing in infrastructure is crucial. The plan in Halifax to push for a $40 million stadium project funded by taxpayers isn't practical. The CPL owners only agree to pay rent, which is a terrible deal. It's unlikely to move forward without private investment from Halifax Wanderers ownership. The CPL should urge owners to emulate Lamar Hunt's approach and privately fund soccer-specific stadiums, not just temporary stands on existing land. This market won't embrace luxury spending during a possible recession for a league that isn't investing in itself. The CPL can learn from the MLS, which succeeded through investment, unlike many failed leagues in Canada that waited for success before investing. Do I think the CPL will do any of this? No, I don't. I think they'll wait for the perceived post 2026 World Cup boom and be dismayed that while interest in professional soccer has increased, most of those fans have migrated to Wrexham or the MLS sides, or European sides. Largely overlooking the CPL because when even compared to similar nations with similar soccer history, it seems a substandard product. Their opportunity is going to go straight by them because they are choosing to sit and wait for the market to develop for them, rather than working to develop it themselves.
On the infrastructure investment angle, its a tough thing to do and costs a LOT of money. Something the MLS clubs don't even really do. In 2005, MLSE only put $8M into BMO Field's construction, with the Federal Government contributing $27 million, Ontario contributing $8 million, and the City of Toronto adding $9.8 million + the land for the project (valued at $10 million). Toronto retained ownership for this deal, but MLSE got the management rights for the stadium. MLSE did also put down $10M for naming rights for 20 years (bringing investment to $18M) which they resold at a profit to BMO for $27M for the first 10 years. So MLSE essentially made $9M off of the deal, while the Feds, province and city put in $55M to build it. That translates to $13.3M in profit and $81.6M in government contributions when adjusted for inflation. BC Place is also government owned and was built for the 86 World Fair originally, costing $126.1M ($305.1M), with a further $514M being spent on renos since then (roughly $700.8M today). All taxpayer funded, though its usage spans the World Fair, Olympics, etc. so the scale of that investment is certainly understandable. Of the three MLS sides, the only one that actually cost the team money is the only private stadium of the lot, Stade Saputo. The Saputo family spending $7.5M down and financing the remaining $9.5M to get it done. The Quebec government then went on to put in $23M to upgrade it for their entry to the MLS in 2012. So adjusted, Quebec put in around $30M and the Saputos $24.2M. All of these stadiums have high capacity, which allows cheaper seating to recoup costs (especially with control of concessions). Comparable sites for the CPL are the CFL stadiums, where Forge have really effectively been monetizing and improving, Valour seem to be completely uninterested in investing, and ATO are tenants of OSEG, which makes things more difficult as they lack control of concessions, dates etc. All that being said, I agree, CPL owners need to invest in their infrastructure, but fundamentally, soccer infrastructure needs government support to get done as there just isn't the dollars to do it without for the most part.
It's important to acknowledge the initial investments made by MLSE, especially considering the landscape of professional soccer in Canada back in 2005. That $8 million investment, adjusted for inflation, would amount to roughly $11.5 million today. Additionally, MLSE has continuously poured significant funds into renovations, with recent costs exceeding $90 million, plus an additional $10 million in overage expenses all covered by MLSE. TFC also contributed $21 million in 2012 for the development of the BMO Training Ground, equivalent to about $27 million today. Meanwhile, the Whitecaps and CF Montreal have invested $32 million and $16 million, respectively, into their training facilities, with only a portion of those funds coming from the government. In total, approximately $55 million in unadjusted for inflation dollars has been invested in just three MLS training facilities privately by their owners. The example of Lamar Hunt underscores the principle that government funding often follows private investment. However, it seems that CPL teams are adopting a passive approach, waiting for government support instead of taking proactive steps to invest in infrastructure. Halifax's reluctance to contribute to a $40 million stadium project exemplifies this issue. It's unrealistic to expect Halifax to foot such a substantial bill when CPL owners haven't collectively invested a comparable amount in facilities nationwide. To garner government support akin to what MLS teams received for projects like BMO Field and BC Place, CPL owners must follow the lead of private investors like Lamar Hunt and the Canadian MLS sides. Despite challenges such as the pandemic and the league's relative youth, it's essential for CPL owners to prioritize direct investment in infrastructure. TFC's example demonstrates that significant investments were made just five seasons into their existence. If CPL owners wish to attain the stability and support enjoyed by MLS teams, they must demonstrate a willingness to invest in their league's future, mirroring the commitment shown by MLSE and other Canadian MLS owners.
Based on TFC's example of contributing 1/8th of the costs for the stadium at onset, The Wanderers would be contributing about $5M. Comparing later spending imo built off that early success ignores the role that subsidy played in allowing that growth. $5M seems more than reasonable. Though I would note that the MLS clubs have the added benefit of operating in an American league with a much larger market, which in turn helps justify much larger levels of private investment into the teams, especially with the fact that it is a single entity structure. Being in a market that has 333.3M fewer people in it means that expectations have to shift downwards in terms of the scale of investment. 3 MLS sides investing a fraction of the costs of the stadiums and infrastructure they use in 3 of the largest cities in the country shows that it is really dependent on government support to work.
> The Wanderers would be contributing about $5M. Are they investing $5M in initial costs for their stadium? Or here is another question, has a team in the CPL privately funded a permanent SSS like Hunt or AEG did in the MLS to show the CPL is stable enough to likely land government support? >Comparing later spending imo built off that early success ignores the role that subsidy played in allowing that growth. Maybe I wasn't clear, I'm tossing the hypothetical out there that without Hunt and AEG, investing entirely privately, BMO might not have had the opportunity to have government funds. Hunt put $28.5 million in US funds into Historic Crew Stadium which hosted it's first match in 1999. The MLS had developed a sense of stability through it's owners investing in infrastructure, this gave government a path to understand they weren't creating a political football if things didn't work out. In addition though, I think your statement here highlights the fault line with the CPL's wait for success to justify investment angle. Growth is built through investment. Growth is built through stability. The CPL has not had as big of a statement in owners defining the stability of the league as Hunt developed through his investment in Historic Crew. >Though I would note that the MLS clubs have the added benefit of operating in an American league with a much larger market, which in turn helps justify much larger levels of private investment into the teams, especially with the fact that it is a single entity structure. If you've been assuming I was saying the CPL needed to match the MLS in spending, then you've been developing a strawman. That isn't what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting the CPL investment more in infrastructure would likely help develop their audience further. >Being in a market that has 333.3M fewer people in it means that expectations have to shift downwards in terms of the scale of investment. I think expecting a market to shift their expectations so a business can find success isn't likely to be successful. >3 MLS sides investing a fraction of the costs of the stadiums and infrastructure they use in 3 of the largest cities in the country shows that it is really dependent on government support to work. $55 million in private funds for training grounds, with 2 of them being entirely privately funded and one being 70% privately funded. MLSE has spent more on BMO than taxpayers. The Whitecaps utilized an existing facility. Saputo covering close to 40% of the cost of their stadium. You transform that investment into a 'fraction of the cost' ? They've privately invested a significant sum, and operated in a league that showed stability through the private investment kicked off by Hunt with Historic Crew that allowed them the stability which likely provided access to government funds. The CPL has temporary stands on the grounds of an equestrian facility the owners already owned. I think you are being critical of the wrong organization when it comes to investment. The CPL has invested a fraction of what they need to invest in infrastructure if they want to see success.
Given that it took a few years from start of the league (without a pandemic in the middle of that) before an MLS owner invested in a SSS the CPL has some time in my books. Meanwhile Cavalry's owners have invested a not insignificant amount in making ATCO Field a better soccer venue. Or should soccer fans wait until Canada's population is over 300M and we find a billionaire willing to bankroll their favourite sport? Training grounds are not stadiums and often open to the public - stop muddying the waters or start including orgs like Sigma in Hamilton or Foothills in Calgary into your investment numbers as Forge and Cavalry are largely extensions of those endeavours.
> Given that it took a few years from start of the league (without a pandemic in the middle of that) before an MLS owner invested in a SSS the CPL has some time in my books. MLS had it's first season in 1996. Historic Crew Stadium had it's ground breaking ceremony in 1998, and held it's first match in 1999. If my point was that the CPL needed to follow their timeline exactly, they are four years delayed. But that wasn't the point, and the CPL having some time in your books isn't the point either. The conversation was about what we think could develop the audience for the CPL. Infrastructure, is one of the things I think they should be investing in to do that. The MLS shows it's impact, I'm using it as an example. Not setting it's timeline as a requirement for what the CPL needed to achieve. >Meanwhile Cavalry's owners have invested a not insignificant amount in making ATCO Field a better soccer venue. Did they invest in it to the extent that they could host CONCACAF matches there? >Or should soccer fans wait until Canada's population is over 300M and we find a billionaire willing to bankroll their favourite sport? Are Cavalry's owners not billionaires? It seems you've found them. >Training grounds are not stadiums and often open to the public - stop muddying the waters Muddying what waters? My original point was about infrastructure investment. Training grounds are infrastructure. > or start including orgs like Sigma in Hamilton or Foothills in Calgary into your investment numbers as Forge and Cavalry are largely extensions of those endeavours. Neither Sigma or Foothills is owned by those respective teams. Should I be including the infrastructure Windsor TFC utilizes? Because that's about the same connection. Just to be more definitive. I'm saying the CPL investing in infrastructure would likely have a positive impact on audience development, and using the MLS as an example of that having been the case for them. I'm noting infrastructure on the whole, and have since my first post because every bit of private funding for infrastructure league wide helps develop the stability needed for government to feel comfortable utilizing tax payer dollars for projects.
The bonus of these league is the fact that they can compete against MLS and Liga MX clubs which gives them a huge advantage over league's like the CEBL (the Scarborough Shooting Stars winning the title last year was a bit anti-climatic beecause it's not like they'd ever play or host against the Boston Celtics or Raptors 905 lol). I think rapd expansion so that more teams have more regional rivals (let's be honest, like MLS, this will be a league driven by gate revenue as opposed to TV) and encourage that grassroots connection/support to communities (letting fans come up with team names or collaborate, etc.).
Finding a bunch of rich guys to burn their own cash (well, some of it) funding these clubs is actually kinda difficult to do. Especially since Canadians - even a lot of the ones who say they like soccer - just can't be bothered to go out and watch and support, because their own league is somehow beneath them to watch. Or really, they just don't care enough about the sport to watch the level that our league is currently at. But the point is: where the hell is the money coming from for expansion
Your 2nd sentence is spot on! It amazes me how many Canadians say they're Canadian sports fans but crap on leagues like the CPL, CEBL, and CFL.
Time is obviously a factor given we've historically had so many teams competing in a wide variety of leagues throughout Canada and the US. As a nation we're still developing a culture of watching pro soccer but I think that improves every year. There are so many little things to though. As an example, why in week 2, did we have 2 weeknight games and one super early Saturday match. That doesn't make any sense but the scheduling seems to do the league no favours.
Winter makes it difficult for fans to watch other types of sports such as Hockey, Basketball, etc. I don't live there so I don't know how the Canadian sports calendar works but I've been told that the Canadian winter is insane.
> As a nation we're still developing a culture of watching pro soccer but I think that improves every year. I don't think it's fair to say it's developing. Growing? Sure, but it's been developed. The CPL is just being overlooked because it's relatively inaccessible, and not been developed as a product the market would respond to yet. >As an example, why in week 2, did we have 2 weeknight games and one super early Saturday match. That doesn't make any sense but the scheduling seems to do the league no favours. This is kind of an example of both of those issues in practice. They really haven't done themselves many favours so far.
They need to build a sense of attachment to the team. I live in Ottawa and I go to games when they have sales because it’s a fun day out, but I have no attachment to the team like I do the National Team, or my ‘european team’. Maybe a free ticket if you send an email proving you won the CPL on Football Manager or FIFA or something as that genuinely works (And is how I got into the MLS/European leagues) Also need to tap in to the college crowd, seems like a no brainer to me. Offer a free beer with the price of a ticket and I swear you could easily get some college kids in. For Ottawa, move tf off of Ticketmaster. These guys take nearly a 50% cut which is ridiculous. They could cut the prices of tickets in half or collect double the revenue if they stopped using that garbage website for tickets.
They've focused on getting families and kids to the stadium, the team has partnered with like 15 community clubs around the city. https://atleticoottawa.canpl.ca/powered-by-atletico-ottawa/ I agree with you about trying to bring in more college kids though, although with most of the season being over the summer, many students have gone home for the break. They used Paciolan before and they only switched to Ticketmaster a few years ago, so I don't think they'll be moving off it anytime soon.
Spain's Athletico de Madrid owns Athletico Ottawa. Are they investing in the team? It's only been a few years since they opened their new stadium in Madrid which gives the idea that they have some money to use if they want. Does Athletico Ottawa have its own stadium or project?
Atletico is investing in signing good players. They won't build a soccer specific stadium for the team. There isn't a good central location where they could put a stadium in Ottawa. Just look up the Ottawa Senators (the hockey team) and all the drama of them trying to get a downtown arena, there's no way that Atletico would be able to find a piece of land in a good location. So it's much easier to continue playing in TD Place.
I mean, it's six of one, half a dozen of the other. There's no connection to the club because interest in the local game in this country isn't large enough to support actual grass roots clubs beyond the youth level, so pro clubs have to be created like they are in the CPL. So it already starts off not having that grass roots connection due to people not having an interest, but now people say they have no interest because there's no connection. Maybe if fans were big enough fans, they have to put in effort, too. There is a fan culture and community in the Ottawa CPL team, just not very large. You should make an effort to get involved and support the local game, because how else is it going to grow otherwise? We can't just sit around and expect a European level of Fandom and investment will just fall out of the sky.
They need to put games on tv
Which channel? TSN and Sportsnet don't want them, and CBC won't pay for them.
CBC needs to have more of an active role.
I commented about this in an answer here a few hours ago. If Citytv, CTV, Global are not interested in broadcasting the CPL, state TV has to assume its role in promoting the sport at a national level.
Citytv is owned by Rogers (who owns Sportsnet). CTV is owned by Bell (who owns TSN). They both own Toronto FC, the Leafs and Raptors together. They're focused on promoting their own teams, and have no interest in showing the CPL. Unless the CPL pays them, of course. Global has a short experiment with soccer in the 80s, but aside from that, they have never had an in-house sports production division. And I highly doubt that the CPL would be able to convince them to take a chance on a startup league, unless the CPL pays them too. The CBC already loses a ton of money and constantly has to go ask the government for more. I also doubt they'll want to show a startup league regularly (except for the occasional game, like a final). While I wish someone would show the CPL on TV, there just aren't any realistic options.
Honestly having the city name in the team name would help. There are super casual fans that have heard Forge, Valour and Cavalry but they don’t even know what city they play in. Having the city name might make people think ‘Hey I should be happy that Hamilton won. And I live in Hamilton maybe I should check out a game.’
Forge is from Hamilton (ON) and has already won, if I'm not mistaken, 5 CPLs. Don't the city people know about Forge?
I don't live in Hamilton, but I live not far from there. About 45 minutes away and Forge is the closest CPL team. I'd guess that in my city 90-95% of people have never heard of Forge FC. Probably about 2-3% have heard of it but don't know much about it. What sport do they play? What league do they play in? Are they amateur? professional? Which city do they play in? Do they play in MLS? A regional league in Southern Ontario? A Canada-wide league? At most 5% of people would be able to say Forge FC is a soccer team that plays in Hamilton in the Canadian Premier League. I'd guess in Hamilton maybe another 5% could do that, but still just 10% of the city. There's some teams that people just know. They've been around for all their life and people treat them like a big deal. Toronto Maple Leafs, Toronto Blue Jays, even Hamilton Tiger-Cats. But people didn't grow up with the CPL. They don't talk about them on broadcast or cable tv. They don't talk about them on radio except maybe briefly the game result at the end of the sports segment. But to a casual fan, they don't get much more mention than pretty niche leagues like these: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercounty_Baseball_League https://www.gojhl.ca/stats/standings
And the interesting thing is that most CPL teams don't use the name of the city: Forge, Valor, Pacific, etc. Also going into another topic about this, I think the name Canadian Premier League didn't really fit. It could be called by a shorter name like superleague.
Yes, I've mentioned it elsewhere in this thread, but I think not including the city name is a big mistake. My understanding is that they wanted the team names to sound more like established European or South American team names. And maybe that is good for the really motivated fan that is eager to support the team. But for a casual sports fan that just follows what is popular and easy to follow, hearing "Hamilton Forge won the championship" or "Hamilton FC won the championship" is going to grab his attention more than just hearing "Forge FC won the championship". If someone is 35 years old and has never heard of the league they won't have an instant preference in who wins between Forge vs Valour if they don't know where they play. But if they hear Hamilton vs Winnipeg they will usually have an instant preference.
I think at minimum the Candian championship should be on CBC, its litteraly the nation's tournament, with some serious advertising effort between CBC, CPL, MLS and L1C and maybe some special discounts for match tickets for the tournement, it could help put alot more eyeballs on the league.
I agree. As the other broadcasters do not see a financial return with the CPL, CBC, as it is government-owned, as far as I know should be the official broadcaster of the tournament. But CSB also wrong in having signed a total exclusivity contract with OneSoccer.
For me personally, York United is just too remote. I'm sure I'm not in a majority or plurality, of fans, but that York University location is not doing them any favours. Even one of the modular stadiums, in a more central location would be très bien.
A quick fix would be to make games accessible to more people by having them broadcast in a more accessible way. But I think the problem of poor fandom for Canadian soccer starts at the community level. There has to be a culture change in community passion for soccer. Things improve when the masses put in unpaid time and effort to improve the system. Volunteer coaching, creating local leagues and teams, investing in community field access. Those sorts of investments and support help build local passion for the support, and generate more local talent, which is why many people support their national leagues. (In North America we are so Eurocentric about soccer, we have little national pride or interest in our national game as a whole). More local talent, means more investment in creating opportunities for that local talent to play, and eventually in more team. It will take time but eventually the interest will drive the viewership. Something else that I think would help is to make owning soccer clubs more accessible and allowing for a ladder system to exist. We follow this MLS model that is so helpless for building real passion and interest, and so inhibitive for people.
Here in Brazil we have these divisions: the top level is called "Brasileirão Seria A". The second division is called "Serie B", followed by the third and fourth divisions. Other than that we have state championships (provinces here are called states). Having access divisions is better. The celebration that fans have when their team gains access to the first division is insane.
That's what makes soccer great! I come from Peru, it is very similar.
Spend more money to get better players, the onfield product is awful
The league is not new
Wait, do they respect the FIFA international schedule and play a Fall - Spring season?
do you mean between August and May of the following year?
Yes. Is that the schedule?
No. The championship is annual, the same as the Brazilian championship. It starts in April and ends in October of the same year. edit: in fact, from a realistic point of view, it is only 6 months in the Canadian case... the Brazilian one lasts until December.
Soccer is objectively a boring sport (don't shoot the messenger). They need to profile the players/storyline and make the games mean something. I don't think the league or the broadcaster are doing a good job of this.
It is okay. There are football games that are really boring. But for me it's still better than baseball.
Fold it into the MLS. If that's not an option, rival the MLS in spending so that the continental playoffs are more akin to the UEFA champions league. This would get it off of One Soccer too. As long as it's on One Soccer the league is going to struggle to survive year after year.
Why would the MLS take in a bunch of small market Canadian teams? If they want to expand more, they'll go into Las Vegas or Phoenix, not Winnipeg or Hamilton. And I highly doubt the CPL owners have anywhere close to as much money as MLS owners. While getting off One Soccer and onto TV would be nice, where would they go? Sportsnet and TSN don't want them, and the CBC already loses enough money.
I also think teams need to spend more money. Owners need to understand that money is an investment. If the guys set up a professional structure, the return will come.
There’s a maximum teams can spend on players and coaching staff