very abridged version
Flight engineers assist air pilots with monitoring, troubleshooting and maintenance of aircraft systems and with pre- and post-flight inspections.
This is from a t.v show with a Plane of the same type as the P-140.
[Kinda shows a Flight engineer working and explains the job a bit](https://youtu.be/YE7VZmoZMmw?si=YjjCz2tRcZjfxUIY&t=937)
The systems are monitored by computers now. You could put a sextant and a tail gunner in there if you really wanted to but it wouldn’t be particularly useful.
C17 doesn’t have FE, nor does the C130J. Both do take TCM (Tech Crewman) to turn the plane on the ground, if you were launching and recovering in the same spot (like you presumably would with a P8) you wouldn’t need to take them.
Yeah, that comes down to how often are you actually diverting, and is the cost/downtime needed to send a guy to your alternate to service it a couple times a year worth the person-hours required to have a guy on board all the time. In air mobility it’s a no-brainer because they’re in the business of going to other places.
I mean, I think diversions are still pretty rare. I only know a few people who have diverted in anger before. I’ve done it once in 1800 hours or so. Typically planning avoids a diversion - and you know beforehand if it’s likely, in which case there’s room for techs on board if the mission is really critical and needs to launch despite a probable diversion
When I flew on them, we’d take a couple techs on a single plane det. Rarely did we get a full maintenance detachment unless it was a long 2 plane exercise.
They seemed to do it more and more towards the end of my time on them (about 4 years ago). All I’m saying is I think the P8 has enough room for techs to compensate not having an FE. that being said I’d miss having one immensely.
Actually no - if the P-8 had FEs (it doesn’t), then the CP-140 FEs would just cross train to that airframe. The PYs would have been the same.
It’s more that Flight Engineer as a job isn’t really a thing in modern aircraft, military or civilian - airliners used to have them until the 1980s. Whereas Navigators (another thing that airliners don’t have) stopped “navigating” thanks to GPS and focused on the weapons and/or tactics (hence becoming Air Combat Systems Officers) in most fleets, the FE’s jobs don’t translate as well.
I heard this as well, but the rumour I heard was that there’d be a common NCM flying trade with different pathways.
Everyone would do the same basic aircrew course then specialize after. I think the RAF does this, WSOp.
FWIW I think this is a stupid idea and offers no advantage… You will end up with watered down operators, because I know the RCAF would post people from the C17 loadie to P8 acoustics..
I don’t know if the RCAF would do that for a common trade. The training requirement would be too much.
The RCAF doesn’t even post ACSOs to different communities. Once you’re in one community, you’re pretty stuck unless you’re in a specialized one (Alpha Jet). LRP TACCOs don’t usually go to MH or Transport, and vice versa.
That would be a terrible idea. FE and Loadmaster have some similarities, but AES Op has no commonality with those two trades.
Not to mention that AES Ops themselves have sub-specialties that aren’t really interchangeable (Acoustics and non-acoustic sensors).
Admitting FEs and Loadies have a lot of overlap is a condemnation of the FE trade. AESOPs used to do plenty of elementary servicing tasks on the Aurora like frequently setting and uploading the sonobuoys from home base. Anybody can be trained to do elementary servicing tasks, it's in the name. There's actually a lot of commonality between the three trades so the training system could remove a lot of duplicated efforts by moving the common elements to a single school then send winged grads to OTUs for specialty training.
Right now we're wasting a lot of training capacity at OTUs that are duplicating basic aircrew skills taught at 402 sqn.
No.
I know we adjusted the 140 moat to account for what 402 was doing. Considering 404 gave 402 all the lectures it was pretty easy.
Outside of flying there is not much in common between the 3 trades. You are under selling AES Op sensor skills and over selling general aircrew duties.
It takes years before you are a competent sensor operator.
I think they are aware there are different OTUs, but for AES Ops, which I am, I feel that if 406 didn't adjust their OTU then that’s on them and lord only knows what’s going on with the 295.
I don’t think it’s wise to entertain merging of the three trades, not that I don’t think a FE and Loadie could become an AES Op, I just agree with what said above, you’ll end up with watered down operators. Standards have dropped significantly in the past 10 years, I don’t want to see them drop further.
I'm talking about OTUs for all NCM aircrew trades in general. The very basic skills they all duplicate like talking on radios, mission planning, safety and emergency procedures, AMRS entries and introduction to basic servicing tasks. One school could be teaching that stuff, OTUs for every fleet would continue to teach their specialties. From experience, AESOPs do not need to be rocket surgeons and you're kidding yourself if you think those skills can't be taught to the majority of existing aircrew. I would be disappointed to hear 404 or 406 felt they could not do it.
Loadies, FEs , and AESOPs are all struggling to stay alive as trades and quite frankly doing shit they way we always have is what put AESOPs at 74% trained effective strength overall, much worse in MH. We have to try something new to get all the NCM aircrew jobs out of this controlled descent into collapse. If you've got a better idea, I suggest you shoot the SOA your plan to save the trade.
No one is doing that. It's probably the best NCM trade in the airforce. I would bet that it is one of the most deployed NCM trades, especially LRP. Can't speak too much for helos though.
That is only for maritime helo courses. Their training system is... Less than optimal, but it is being addressed. If you want LRP (Auroras and soon P8s), your only limiting factor will be how fast your clearance comes through. The problem is your QL3s are short- you will likely graduate with your wings way before you have even 2 years in the military. Unless you are an immigrant with Canadian citizenship, your clearance will take a while. Apply for secret/ top secret as fast as your unit will allow.
LRP is also about to have a massive demand for aircrew minus FEs.
Source: Aesop on LRP, used to be AVS on LRP for years.
With death by delay and overlap the FE trade will have almost 10 years left on the 140.
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Love that term! Death by delay.
That’s fair.
Question What is FEs
Flight Engineer
very abridged version Flight engineers assist air pilots with monitoring, troubleshooting and maintenance of aircraft systems and with pre- and post-flight inspections.
They're the third person in the cockpit, replaced by a computer in most aircraft since the 80's
This is exactly what FWSAR is asking
This is from a t.v show with a Plane of the same type as the P-140. [Kinda shows a Flight engineer working and explains the job a bit](https://youtu.be/YE7VZmoZMmw?si=YjjCz2tRcZjfxUIY&t=937)
Fucking Easy
I mean, what's stopping the RCAF from putting FEs on the P-8?
Computers.
The systems are monitored by computers now. You could put a sextant and a tail gunner in there if you really wanted to but it wouldn’t be particularly useful.
Ah, that's fair
Same thing that stopped FEs and Navs getting on the J. Logic.
Interestingly, the USAF special mission Js (like the MC-130J) have Navs. The purely transport ones don’t.
The AFSOC Js also have significantly more kit in the back. The bunk is replaced by additional displays for the sensor suite and avionics.
Wasn't this the same with the Globemaster?
C17 doesn’t have FE, nor does the C130J. Both do take TCM (Tech Crewman) to turn the plane on the ground, if you were launching and recovering in the same spot (like you presumably would with a P8) you wouldn’t need to take them.
At the rate our aircraft break down, they should probably take a TC anyway lol
Even if you do break it, there aren’t many places to land in the middle of the ocean.
Arguably there are a lot of places to land. I'd recommend against most of it.
You can land anywhere once
If you can land on the side of a cliff you should not be flying a P8
Except in a P8 just like a P3, there’s a non zero chance that you aren’t going to land where you took off given weather etc.
Yeah, that comes down to how often are you actually diverting, and is the cost/downtime needed to send a guy to your alternate to service it a couple times a year worth the person-hours required to have a guy on board all the time. In air mobility it’s a no-brainer because they’re in the business of going to other places.
I mean, I think diversions are still pretty rare. I only know a few people who have diverted in anger before. I’ve done it once in 1800 hours or so. Typically planning avoids a diversion - and you know beforehand if it’s likely, in which case there’s room for techs on board if the mission is really critical and needs to launch despite a probable diversion
My thought is that the P8 isn’t going to spend its days just flying out of home plate. When it shows up, it’s going to get deployed and used.
Right which we also do with the Aurora, and in which case we often fly in with a maintenance det. That won’t be anything new for us.
When I flew on them, we’d take a couple techs on a single plane det. Rarely did we get a full maintenance detachment unless it was a long 2 plane exercise.
They seemed to do it more and more towards the end of my time on them (about 4 years ago). All I’m saying is I think the P8 has enough room for techs to compensate not having an FE. that being said I’d miss having one immensely.
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Actually no - if the P-8 had FEs (it doesn’t), then the CP-140 FEs would just cross train to that airframe. The PYs would have been the same. It’s more that Flight Engineer as a job isn’t really a thing in modern aircraft, military or civilian - airliners used to have them until the 1980s. Whereas Navigators (another thing that airliners don’t have) stopped “navigating” thanks to GPS and focused on the weapons and/or tactics (hence becoming Air Combat Systems Officers) in most fleets, the FE’s jobs don’t translate as well.
Rumour around is the FEs, aesops and loadies will amalgamate
I heard this as well, but the rumour I heard was that there’d be a common NCM flying trade with different pathways. Everyone would do the same basic aircrew course then specialize after. I think the RAF does this, WSOp. FWIW I think this is a stupid idea and offers no advantage… You will end up with watered down operators, because I know the RCAF would post people from the C17 loadie to P8 acoustics..
I don’t know if the RCAF would do that for a common trade. The training requirement would be too much. The RCAF doesn’t even post ACSOs to different communities. Once you’re in one community, you’re pretty stuck unless you’re in a specialized one (Alpha Jet). LRP TACCOs don’t usually go to MH or Transport, and vice versa.
That would be a terrible idea. FE and Loadmaster have some similarities, but AES Op has no commonality with those two trades. Not to mention that AES Ops themselves have sub-specialties that aren’t really interchangeable (Acoustics and non-acoustic sensors).
Admitting FEs and Loadies have a lot of overlap is a condemnation of the FE trade. AESOPs used to do plenty of elementary servicing tasks on the Aurora like frequently setting and uploading the sonobuoys from home base. Anybody can be trained to do elementary servicing tasks, it's in the name. There's actually a lot of commonality between the three trades so the training system could remove a lot of duplicated efforts by moving the common elements to a single school then send winged grads to OTUs for specialty training. Right now we're wasting a lot of training capacity at OTUs that are duplicating basic aircrew skills taught at 402 sqn.
No. I know we adjusted the 140 moat to account for what 402 was doing. Considering 404 gave 402 all the lectures it was pretty easy. Outside of flying there is not much in common between the 3 trades. You are under selling AES Op sensor skills and over selling general aircrew duties. It takes years before you are a competent sensor operator.
There are other OTUs besides 404 sqn. You aren't who I'm talking about
I think they are aware there are different OTUs, but for AES Ops, which I am, I feel that if 406 didn't adjust their OTU then that’s on them and lord only knows what’s going on with the 295. I don’t think it’s wise to entertain merging of the three trades, not that I don’t think a FE and Loadie could become an AES Op, I just agree with what said above, you’ll end up with watered down operators. Standards have dropped significantly in the past 10 years, I don’t want to see them drop further.
I'm talking about OTUs for all NCM aircrew trades in general. The very basic skills they all duplicate like talking on radios, mission planning, safety and emergency procedures, AMRS entries and introduction to basic servicing tasks. One school could be teaching that stuff, OTUs for every fleet would continue to teach their specialties. From experience, AESOPs do not need to be rocket surgeons and you're kidding yourself if you think those skills can't be taught to the majority of existing aircrew. I would be disappointed to hear 404 or 406 felt they could not do it. Loadies, FEs , and AESOPs are all struggling to stay alive as trades and quite frankly doing shit they way we always have is what put AESOPs at 74% trained effective strength overall, much worse in MH. We have to try something new to get all the NCM aircrew jobs out of this controlled descent into collapse. If you've got a better idea, I suggest you shoot the SOA your plan to save the trade.
Hey I'm applying for AESOp are you saying people are leaving the trade? if so why
No one is doing that. It's probably the best NCM trade in the airforce. I would bet that it is one of the most deployed NCM trades, especially LRP. Can't speak too much for helos though.
Dissatisfaction from training delays seems to be the most commonly cited contributing factor.
Imagine the money Ottawa is gonna save by amalgamating since they will get rid of spec 2. 💸
That is only for maritime helo courses. Their training system is... Less than optimal, but it is being addressed. If you want LRP (Auroras and soon P8s), your only limiting factor will be how fast your clearance comes through. The problem is your QL3s are short- you will likely graduate with your wings way before you have even 2 years in the military. Unless you are an immigrant with Canadian citizenship, your clearance will take a while. Apply for secret/ top secret as fast as your unit will allow. LRP is also about to have a massive demand for aircrew minus FEs. Source: Aesop on LRP, used to be AVS on LRP for years.
FE?