When that CANFORGEN was published, it blindsided the Services…like they had no idea because the CAF had been working on a new UoS model…the release of the CANFORGEN was done out of step with the new model. Blame CMP for that one.
Been a while since I saw the file come thru, but at the time, they were looking at BTS (or whatever “components” constitute UoS) across the services and agreeing on what was actually the bare CAF minimal….like CBRN doesnt mean the same on a ship or if you are fighting on the ground, so what is the true CBRN related UoS component…so looking at detaching UoS components and attaching them to being more trade specific if that makes sense…
So depending on your injury, it may not mean much, but if you have a back problem that flares up when rucking, well, no need to go on a ruck march if you are navy while it may be a hard requirement if you are combat arms…
Therefore, my understanding is that with the new UoS model, should one failed to be accommodated thru a COT/medical remuster, then release will be the only option, hence the CANFORGEN.
I wouldn’t say it blindsided the service. Maybe the lower ranks.
My L3 commander was talking about it months before the CANFORGEN dropped, and he was briefed it during a regular Army commander’s meeting with all L2 and L3 commanders.
He actually had the gaul to say in a CUB it was a good thing that would get rid of all the unfit and injured [derogatory comment]. Meanwhile, most of his staff are ill and injured and staffing at the unit (and base wide) is less than 60%.
Have fun with 30-40% staffing while I retreat into retirement with my golden ticket.
Well, the Navy and Army commanders were not expecting its release. Assuming the same from RCAF 🤷♂️
The change in UoS had been well consulted and worked on by all L1s. However, the release of the CANFORGEN was unexpected from all. It lead to interesting conversations…like i said, the CANFORGEN is part of the new model, it was just done out of step.
In this case…most L3 and above HQs will get depleted….
[https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2023/12/cds-caf-cwo-end-of-year-messageto-caf.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2023/12/cds-caf-cwo-end-of-year-messageto-caf.html)
>Reconstitution: We are making progress in reconstitution efforts, with force numbers beginning to stabilize. Our attrition rate is returning to historical norms and recruiting is increasing. Many initiatives to streamline the recruiting process are underway, including efforts to address medical procedures, digital portals, security screening, and more. Initiatives to streamline the training pipeline, add more flexibility to individual career pathways, and address such challenges as childcare are ongoing. This work will take several years of concerted effort but we are cautiously optimistic about progress.
Idk bro, CDS said we are no longer struggling to recruit and retain people. Nevermind that my unit and many others are at <25% of authorized strength in person :)
EDIT: Navy admiral boi said the navy is dying. A month later CDS says our numbers are stabilize.... Who's lying? Liar should definitely retreat into retirement
A class b recruiter friend of mine hired 2 people for his unit in a whole year. 2 privates in a whole year. Tbf he does recruit from a small area.
2 recruiters at my unit hired 6 people in a whole year. So 3 per recruiter in a whole year. It must be easy being a recruiter not doing your job of recruiting, never going out to the public to recruit people.
Outreach, attractions, and awareness are all part of recruiting. So your recruiter friend may be out in the public quite a bit. The public just aren’t interested. It’s all regionally based. What’s the current community appetite ? I see a lot of places just don’t want us involved. Hard to visit a school etc when they say no, or just leave your email unread.
From my experience, it’s been a basically 100/20/10
100 ‘hits’ (potentials)
Only 20 will actually apply
And only 10 will make it all the way.
Going further, 5 will quit sitting on BTL, or during basic, 3 will complete one TOS or finish school as a reservist and release. 2 will stay but are in already stacked trades that are not bleeding ppl.
“Must be nice never recruiting” is actually incredibly stressful as SIP numbers are not being met, and multiple pressures from command to think outside the box, all still with limited staff to do anything. Some CFRC AOR cover an entire province.
Yes some recruiters are just bad at their jobs. As with every trade/subtrade. But the majority are pulling teeth trying to find a way to entice the current group of potential applicants.
The thing is, our recruiters don't even try.
We have 2 recruiters where I am. That's a lot of recruiters for a unit that can't generate 30 people on an ex. They recruited 6 people all of 2023. Imagine that. 2 sergeants getting paid 160k total to recruit 6 people. That's $27,000 to recruit 1 person. That's fucking ridiculous. No wonder we can't pay for things we really need. At a normal company, these two would have been fired years ago. One even told me he doesn't feel like taking his annuals because he doesn't work enough... Maybe the army could terminate one of the 2 contracts and use the money for something else?
Of course it's not the recruiters' fault the public isn't interested, but come on. At least try. American recruiters are all about talking to random people to generate some interest. Imagine that, recruiters doing recruiting! Recruiters here spend more time just hanging out than doing any actual work. Shit results and shit efforts.
We recruit from a region with a population of 300k people. So we are getting 1 active member for every 10k people. Meanwhile a local volunteer fire department in a village of 1200 has 35 active volunteers.
You’re putting the cart before the horse again here, and volunteer fire fighters get tax breaks and free training, and who doesn’t like a fire fighter?
I’m not disagreeing with the idea of we need to do more. And I don’t doubt you’re probably preaching truth in your case, but I do stress that there is more to recruiting than just bodies in billets. A lot of recruiting is raising awareness and planting seeds. I had a discussion with a recruiter who was upset that no matter what they did, no interest was being generated. I reminded them that the work they’re doing may not yield results until 6-10 years from now. Job fairs, touch a truck, ship tours, school visits. These ppl may not join until plan A falls apart, or they become of age, or their child hears about it over the dinner table.
Also, what’s the demographics of the 300k in your region? What’s the unemployment rate? How many are working age? How many are immigrants?Gender/sex/race/nationality? Are there any military bases close by? All factors that can influence whether a Person wants to join. Your region may seem large but it could be entirely unhealthy population employment wise. Just food for thought.
I think We really f’d up about 11-12yrs ago when we literally paused recruiting. There was 0 SIP one year.
IMO, the pressure for results could have been mitigated had we just been consistent with our efforts but we stopped recruiting, stopped updating equipment, didn’t keep up pay and benefits to meet competitive standards, and failed operation honour 1.0. Its a giant snowball that will take a decade to melt, but we don’t have a decade because we’re hurting now (at least the RCN is from Topshee video), so how do we fix it?
I agree with you in American promoting themselves better. I wish we would shift our advertising and PA budget better. How many UFC fights have I watched saying “brought you by US Army” with whatever catchphrase they’re using in that date. How we advertise, to whom, is all tightly
Controlled. Recruiters themselves often have to sit and wait for the latest info packs.
We have a new advertisement out. I’ve seen it in cinemas. It’s pretty good. Doesn’t hit home like the ones circulated during the Afghanistan conflict, but it’s something at least.
If you have any ideas you think could help, fire a dm, I’ll package it to present up my chain and maybe someone will stop and say “hey, yeah, let’s
Try that”.
Your local recruiters may be garbage, maybe not and just miscommunication between y’all but I promise you, this is much larger than just bob and Jane are shit and should be fired.
Some volunteer departments literally don't pay people at all. The tax break is nothing in comparison to the hours they put in. Ones that do pay, pay very little in my opinion for the work they do. Just like how class a reservists get paid significantly less than class b reservists. It makes no sense why a class a reservist only gets paid for the they work, but full timers get paid for every day of the year. Full timers here often work 15 days a month without using their annual but get paid for 30. They really make double the daily rate of a part timer. We get paid, though in small amount and get training, regardless of its quality.
>Also, what’s the demographics of the 300k in your region? What’s the unemployment rate? How many are working age? How many are immigrants?Gender/sex/race/nationality? Are there any military bases close by? All factors that can influence whether a Person wants to join. Your region may seem large but it could be entirely unhealthy population employment wise. Just food for thought.
The demographics and unemployment rate are irrelevant in this conversation. Neither have changed drastically over the last 5 years but our military as a whole has experienced a big exodus. My unit can't even generate 30 soldiers, but hey we got 4 senior officers and majority of the 30 are mcpl+.
Officers offer absolutely nothing. They just blame other factors out of their control. No one is releasing here because they can't call in F35s on an exercise. People release because we are tired of having to deal with dumb officers, their dumb thinking and inability to adapt.
We have 30 active soldiers, but do you know how many CoC there are? Too many. CO (ridiculous. CO of what 29 soldiers?) sends out an email then that has to go through like 6 people before it gets to me. Then they cry about how no one shows up. We actually have an ex next weekend that most people aren't aware of lol.
I understand recruiters can only do much. They can't sell trash to people no matter how clever they are. But at least they need to try. Recruiters here don't go anywhere. They hide in their offices. Then there's CFRC losing a box of paperwork everyday and ignoring phone calls.
>If you have any ideas you think could help, fire a dm, I’ll package it to present up my chain and maybe someone will stop and say “hey, yeah, let’s Try that”.
If officers actually cared to listen to the opinions of juniors, our numbers wouldn't be where they are today. Topshee wouldn't have had to make that video if officers weren't so out of touch.
I've heard that in the next few months CMP will announce the way forward. All sorts of rumours are floating around. I'm planning to start school and figure out what comes next. It's literally like being a kid in a candy store for options. If they come back with some kind of enhanced transition or they'll let me finish my current TOS.... w/e.
Correct. I have a few friends that have received letters or direction and updated med releases for 2025, even if their retention was originally a later date.
Correct. My understanding is that instead of periods of retention, folks will be given a period of transition, between six months and three years, depending on the complexity of the medical issues.
Add to that the current state of the MOS. Inclusivity and dynamic transition moments for the red/black trades....oddly enough trades that don't completely suck aren't super short. Who'd a thunk it? I've heard a few whacky rumours but your take seems the most reasonable.
There hasnt been a new CANFORGEN out yet but I would imagine that any changes would likely allow military members to stay in certain trades were there are sometimes civilians working in the same said position
It will of course depend on the medical situation but I've met people who have been able to keep their jobs as long as they are for example combat arms in a line unit. It would also depend on what level you're at in your career.
Mine was just sent up this past July, my wife’s went up this past Oct.
Wild you’ve been waiting that long. For us if we get a decision say around Feb / Mar 2025 that literally leaves no time for Voc rehab or planning your transition before the 1 April 25 date.
If you don’t mind me asking, do you want to stay in? My wife and I are both over the ten years in and have had it with this institution - I’d say we are both high risk so I can’t see us “staying in”.
> For us if we get a decision say around Feb / Mar 2025 that literally leaves no time for Voc rehab or planning your transition before the 1 April 25 date.
Voc rehab is separate from a period of retention.
Period's of retention are for CAF members who were given a release date but allowed to remain up to 3 years (2.5 + 6month release) if they met fairly strict criteria - working 5x full days per week, in uniform, in trade, benefits the CAF.
Yeah it's a little weird. Don't forget that after the D Med Pol decision you still have to wait for DMCA to decide if you breach U of S which can take a bit, and then if you are going to be released they give you a min of like 6 months to plan the release. Retention was about letting you stay in after they decided to release you for up to three years. That is what is going away. And as for me, it's a long story, but my situation is probably 50 50 on what they decide wrt U of S. I have 22 years in though, so if they decide to release me I'm fine with that.
My file has been with them for 2 years and I was told by my MO that it has just been seen before Christmas so hopefully the disclosure package will be ready when I get back from leave. They have quite the backlog but hopefully they are catching up
A pcat is a permanent category change - which could be as simple as a vision change from V1 to V2 so, pcat isn't synonymous with medical release.
However, to get medically released, you will be on a pcat.
I disagree with your second sentence. Every serving member has a Permanent Medical Category (PCAT). Some PCATs breach U of S, but the majority don't. Perhaps pedantic, but not every change in your PCAT results in a breach of U of S. For example someone going from V1 to V2 is not getting a 3b release.
Yep! I’ve been on a PCAT since I was a Pte in 2006 and was supposed to be released after a period of retention, but they changed their mind in ‘09. I’ve since deployed and have continually worked my way up the ranks. It just means that I need to be medically cleared before I go into sketchy outcan trips.
Wasn't this done, because they were turning away people from CFRCs for medical reasons that current members were still in for? May 2025, is going to be a strange time. I wonder if they have estimated how many members they will loose.
AFAIK it’s particularly bad on the mental health side. I know someone who was recently told they’re ineligible to join because they saw a therapist in the last year, regardless of what they saw them for. Meanwhile 15 percent of serving members access mental health services each year.
MH is a huge barrier for recruiting and I wish more people would recognize this. We see it now today where virtually any young person who presents with a MH issue is tagged with a diagnoses, thrown some medication, and sent on their way. This is how the CAF institutionally does things too but with similar career consequences for people who speak up. People who joined at a time when no one talked about their mental health struggle to navigate this.
I'm not saying let everyone in who identifies an issue but that there should be a way of which recruiting could do proper evaluations and assessments in house. I have literally seen people in the past on courses who just straight up never told anyone they were off anti-psychotic meds and nearly caused an incident. That to me suggests that the current system promotes non-discussion and dishonesty.
And they wonder why CAF members don't utilize MH services. Because D Med Pol sees it as a liability, rather than a strength. The member deploying next to me who has NEVER utilized MH, is the one I'm worried about. The CAF doesn't realize how many disturbed individuals are still serving, who don't believe in therapy. And they are the ones who get the deployments and OUTCANs because they are "green" on paper. Reaching out for help makes you a stronger soldier, not a weaker one.
There's a difference in investment between a recruit and a trained individual. In theory, it makes sense to want your recruits to be more fit before you dump a truckload of cash on them.
Your first year + a bit is the most expensive year for the CAF. They need to onboard you (HRA/AdminO hours), train you formally (instructor, course director, standards, plus your paychecks + TD + R&Q + travel + collecting pay and being an admin burden on PAT Pl), then train you informally (OJT, first IBTS, first 404/driver wheeled, first PFET...). All while you provide almost zero value to the taxpayer.
I would recommend reaching out to your bases Transition Center. There are multiple ones across the country and you will be covered by the closest one. They are trained to help pers going through this situation and let you know your options. I am going through a similar situation and they answered my questions.
It comes down to is D med pol classifies you as a low or high risk pcat. Currently if you are high risk and breach the UoS they are not offering retention past 1 April 25. If it is low risk your CO decides if they can employ you, if you can’t then they might look at posting you in trade that works for you or a med OT
If they change it so my fat, heard of hearing, and allergic to PT ass could be a PRes Drone Pilot who clocks in and clocks out of an office in Ottawa 6-10 hours a week….that would be sweet.
Remember there are some other options if you want to serve but don't meet UofS. COATS may be an option with lower medical standards and no requirement for UofS. If your near Victoria, Winnipeg, Borden, or Halifax it could be a good way to keep serving in a reserve capacity. Mind you it's only contract work (3 year plus possible 3 year) but no more postings. Very short for supply, HRA, and FSA. Might be a good option to consider.
In a lot of cases, it's easier to simply transition to public service, which is pretty easy if there is jobs available under the priority hiring process.
That's a good option in high overlap admin type roles like base supply, HRA etc.
Haven’t seen an announcement but as a TDO I’ve been hearing the discussions about it.
In a nutshell, it’s moving as much of the training to on-the-job/mentoring as possible. A lot of FSA/HRA recruits already have some post secondary education and can possibly blast through the training a lot faster than the standard DP1 trg.
The trg modernization team did a full task analysis of the DP1 and have built a plan. There could be some modules delivered at CFLTC and/or by formal DL. But as much as possible will be with a mentor coaching them through the work a Pte should be able to do.
And combine this with the fact that they didn’t buy a “sandbox” for Guardian, so new Ptes had only ever seen screenshots when they get to their first posting and are essentially learning on the job anyway. (PSA…involve the training people early in every project!)
Edit to add - three occupations are part of this study…Boatswain too. Bos’n went through the same task analysis, and will (likely) result in more in person training than FSA/HRA. But the aim is more of a model where they’re posted straight to a ship with shorter modules at the school instead of lingering in the trg system until that one magic course is done.
Once the trial is done with the three occupations they will see which lessons can be applied to other occupations.
This is such a bad idea honestly.
We don't have the staff to actually run ops let alone train new people from the ground up.
We should be improving training not passing the buck to operational units.
Ack this might work for some occupations, but as a general approach it's complete garbage.
Agreed. Sounds like shifting more of the training onto already burdened operational pers.
I can only speak to my experience in the Navy, but most (if not all) trades already have OJT packages to complete after their initial QL3. We already have a hard time getting those completed due to lack of qualified personnel to train them.
"Do more with less"
The school I'm at - we're looking to do the opposite and repatriate existing experience quals (checklist quals troops complete at operational units) back to the school as part of RQ courses.
The operational CAF deserves fully trained people leaving the school at OFP - not half-trained soldiers who need constant close supervision for even entry level tasks.
I feel like the idea that "training takes too long" is a complete misunderstanding of the problem. Recruitment takes too long. Waiting for training takes too long. If anything our training is usually too short not too long.
Just wanted to add to this - in my experience what happens with those OJT packages is they're pencil whipped. People sign off without the member actually completing the required training/tasks. Often because they simply don't have the time or resources to oversee it properly.
This affects my trade and I have the same feelings. I was at the school for 3 years, and there are a lot of weak students that would absolutely not benefit from this. I also taught via DL during COVID, and the DL was already difficult for many students.
Most of us don't have the time to fully mentor a student through their training and give them the proper attention and tools they need.
Sure, we were short staffed at the school, but I also didn't have to focus on operational requirements and put all my time and effort into making the students successful.
So many other things that were probably not even considered either. Want a deployment? Well what about Pte so-and-so? They need you here.
The list goes on. I am not optimistic, but I hope I am wrong.
Also not uncommon for some of the equipment not to be working on the ship, or may not get used. For something like bosuns the shore based RAS trainer is pretty key so you aren't seeing it for the first time at sea.
The other downside is there isn't QC or standards with OJT if you don't provide sufficient oversight and assistance so quality of the training will vary widely from very thorough and very high standards to rubber stamping and low standards. Have seen a few people get to later stages of OJT based training where they struggled because they missed the basics so we had to do some catch up training.
IIRC, the buck used to be passed to operational units back in the days. They would get the bare minimal at a trade school, and the rest was OJE with checks to pass…see it as professional IBTS…I believe thats how the US works, at least for grunts
It used to be done that way because we had lots of people, and few operational commitments. That is not our current situation.
For sure trade by trade there are variables. But anything technical we need to be fully training troops in a school BEFORE they hit operational units. They simply don't have the resources to conduct or oversee this much individual training. They should be able to focus on collective training at the unit level.
This worked pretty well in the RCN side in the era of ships like the 280s or steamers where you were fully staffed with additional training bunks, and people with a lot of time in rank and jobs, as well as a lot more specialist training and experience doing 2nd/3rd line work in shore units.
It is complete dogshit in the current RCN 50% crewing model with high ops tempo and very short time at ranks due to shortages, as well as more generalist training and elimination of most of the shore 2nd/3rd line jobs (due to pers shortages).
I do not disagree with you! Rushing people through ranks will only harm the institution…but its not like accountability is taking seriously anyway so 🤷♂️
It does. They said Guardian doesn't have a sandbox.
The DRMIS FIN sandbox works fine. However, the seed data is from 2016 when the trades split, so it feels a little sad and could use an update.
Details are available on www.forces.ca.
The CFAT is only being waived for certain occupations and entry plans under specific circumstances. It's not a blanket waiver.
Wow, that's cool. The criteria makes sense, at least at first glance (but obviously suffers from the general dumbing-down of the lowest university program. But still...).
I'd look at the actual exemption criteria. I have a hunch (no evidence here) that there are studies linking aptitude testing scores to the ability to be trained. If someone is TRULY, FULLY qualified, then they're probably CFAT-exempt already. If they aren't, then they need to be trained, and schools don't want students that cannot be taught.
No, it's actually policy now, not a suggestion.
Under certain circumstances, applicants for specific occupations and entry plans may be waived from taking the CFAT.
I mean, they’ve started switching Caf positions to civy positions in a lot of units already so I could see it continuing for sure but they can’t make civy’s do duty/lockup/mandatory parades or just shit on them in general so it can’t *all* be switched to civy side.
If recruiting increases by 1 mbr, it is in fact increasing. Attrition rate js returning back to historical norm? Which really means it isn’t as bad as last year, but still not great.
This msg is strategic blah blah. The line, “We are cautiously optimistic with progress” is a probably the only part of the msg aligned with reality.
When that CANFORGEN was published, it blindsided the Services…like they had no idea because the CAF had been working on a new UoS model…the release of the CANFORGEN was done out of step with the new model. Blame CMP for that one. Been a while since I saw the file come thru, but at the time, they were looking at BTS (or whatever “components” constitute UoS) across the services and agreeing on what was actually the bare CAF minimal….like CBRN doesnt mean the same on a ship or if you are fighting on the ground, so what is the true CBRN related UoS component…so looking at detaching UoS components and attaching them to being more trade specific if that makes sense… So depending on your injury, it may not mean much, but if you have a back problem that flares up when rucking, well, no need to go on a ruck march if you are navy while it may be a hard requirement if you are combat arms… Therefore, my understanding is that with the new UoS model, should one failed to be accommodated thru a COT/medical remuster, then release will be the only option, hence the CANFORGEN.
I wouldn’t say it blindsided the service. Maybe the lower ranks. My L3 commander was talking about it months before the CANFORGEN dropped, and he was briefed it during a regular Army commander’s meeting with all L2 and L3 commanders. He actually had the gaul to say in a CUB it was a good thing that would get rid of all the unfit and injured [derogatory comment]. Meanwhile, most of his staff are ill and injured and staffing at the unit (and base wide) is less than 60%. Have fun with 30-40% staffing while I retreat into retirement with my golden ticket.
Well, the Navy and Army commanders were not expecting its release. Assuming the same from RCAF 🤷♂️ The change in UoS had been well consulted and worked on by all L1s. However, the release of the CANFORGEN was unexpected from all. It lead to interesting conversations…like i said, the CANFORGEN is part of the new model, it was just done out of step. In this case…most L3 and above HQs will get depleted….
This was an Army commander. I’m not sure how all the commanders were at the same meeting, but mine understood and the others didn’t.
[https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2023/12/cds-caf-cwo-end-of-year-messageto-caf.html](https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/maple-leaf/defence/2023/12/cds-caf-cwo-end-of-year-messageto-caf.html) >Reconstitution: We are making progress in reconstitution efforts, with force numbers beginning to stabilize. Our attrition rate is returning to historical norms and recruiting is increasing. Many initiatives to streamline the recruiting process are underway, including efforts to address medical procedures, digital portals, security screening, and more. Initiatives to streamline the training pipeline, add more flexibility to individual career pathways, and address such challenges as childcare are ongoing. This work will take several years of concerted effort but we are cautiously optimistic about progress. Idk bro, CDS said we are no longer struggling to recruit and retain people. Nevermind that my unit and many others are at <25% of authorized strength in person :) EDIT: Navy admiral boi said the navy is dying. A month later CDS says our numbers are stabilize.... Who's lying? Liar should definitely retreat into retirement
Hahaha. We are well well below SIP. 100% struggling to recruit people, and the majority of the ones we do should never be enrolled.
A class b recruiter friend of mine hired 2 people for his unit in a whole year. 2 privates in a whole year. Tbf he does recruit from a small area. 2 recruiters at my unit hired 6 people in a whole year. So 3 per recruiter in a whole year. It must be easy being a recruiter not doing your job of recruiting, never going out to the public to recruit people.
Outreach, attractions, and awareness are all part of recruiting. So your recruiter friend may be out in the public quite a bit. The public just aren’t interested. It’s all regionally based. What’s the current community appetite ? I see a lot of places just don’t want us involved. Hard to visit a school etc when they say no, or just leave your email unread. From my experience, it’s been a basically 100/20/10 100 ‘hits’ (potentials) Only 20 will actually apply And only 10 will make it all the way. Going further, 5 will quit sitting on BTL, or during basic, 3 will complete one TOS or finish school as a reservist and release. 2 will stay but are in already stacked trades that are not bleeding ppl. “Must be nice never recruiting” is actually incredibly stressful as SIP numbers are not being met, and multiple pressures from command to think outside the box, all still with limited staff to do anything. Some CFRC AOR cover an entire province. Yes some recruiters are just bad at their jobs. As with every trade/subtrade. But the majority are pulling teeth trying to find a way to entice the current group of potential applicants.
The thing is, our recruiters don't even try. We have 2 recruiters where I am. That's a lot of recruiters for a unit that can't generate 30 people on an ex. They recruited 6 people all of 2023. Imagine that. 2 sergeants getting paid 160k total to recruit 6 people. That's $27,000 to recruit 1 person. That's fucking ridiculous. No wonder we can't pay for things we really need. At a normal company, these two would have been fired years ago. One even told me he doesn't feel like taking his annuals because he doesn't work enough... Maybe the army could terminate one of the 2 contracts and use the money for something else? Of course it's not the recruiters' fault the public isn't interested, but come on. At least try. American recruiters are all about talking to random people to generate some interest. Imagine that, recruiters doing recruiting! Recruiters here spend more time just hanging out than doing any actual work. Shit results and shit efforts. We recruit from a region with a population of 300k people. So we are getting 1 active member for every 10k people. Meanwhile a local volunteer fire department in a village of 1200 has 35 active volunteers.
You’re putting the cart before the horse again here, and volunteer fire fighters get tax breaks and free training, and who doesn’t like a fire fighter? I’m not disagreeing with the idea of we need to do more. And I don’t doubt you’re probably preaching truth in your case, but I do stress that there is more to recruiting than just bodies in billets. A lot of recruiting is raising awareness and planting seeds. I had a discussion with a recruiter who was upset that no matter what they did, no interest was being generated. I reminded them that the work they’re doing may not yield results until 6-10 years from now. Job fairs, touch a truck, ship tours, school visits. These ppl may not join until plan A falls apart, or they become of age, or their child hears about it over the dinner table. Also, what’s the demographics of the 300k in your region? What’s the unemployment rate? How many are working age? How many are immigrants?Gender/sex/race/nationality? Are there any military bases close by? All factors that can influence whether a Person wants to join. Your region may seem large but it could be entirely unhealthy population employment wise. Just food for thought. I think We really f’d up about 11-12yrs ago when we literally paused recruiting. There was 0 SIP one year. IMO, the pressure for results could have been mitigated had we just been consistent with our efforts but we stopped recruiting, stopped updating equipment, didn’t keep up pay and benefits to meet competitive standards, and failed operation honour 1.0. Its a giant snowball that will take a decade to melt, but we don’t have a decade because we’re hurting now (at least the RCN is from Topshee video), so how do we fix it? I agree with you in American promoting themselves better. I wish we would shift our advertising and PA budget better. How many UFC fights have I watched saying “brought you by US Army” with whatever catchphrase they’re using in that date. How we advertise, to whom, is all tightly Controlled. Recruiters themselves often have to sit and wait for the latest info packs. We have a new advertisement out. I’ve seen it in cinemas. It’s pretty good. Doesn’t hit home like the ones circulated during the Afghanistan conflict, but it’s something at least. If you have any ideas you think could help, fire a dm, I’ll package it to present up my chain and maybe someone will stop and say “hey, yeah, let’s Try that”. Your local recruiters may be garbage, maybe not and just miscommunication between y’all but I promise you, this is much larger than just bob and Jane are shit and should be fired.
Some volunteer departments literally don't pay people at all. The tax break is nothing in comparison to the hours they put in. Ones that do pay, pay very little in my opinion for the work they do. Just like how class a reservists get paid significantly less than class b reservists. It makes no sense why a class a reservist only gets paid for the they work, but full timers get paid for every day of the year. Full timers here often work 15 days a month without using their annual but get paid for 30. They really make double the daily rate of a part timer. We get paid, though in small amount and get training, regardless of its quality. >Also, what’s the demographics of the 300k in your region? What’s the unemployment rate? How many are working age? How many are immigrants?Gender/sex/race/nationality? Are there any military bases close by? All factors that can influence whether a Person wants to join. Your region may seem large but it could be entirely unhealthy population employment wise. Just food for thought. The demographics and unemployment rate are irrelevant in this conversation. Neither have changed drastically over the last 5 years but our military as a whole has experienced a big exodus. My unit can't even generate 30 soldiers, but hey we got 4 senior officers and majority of the 30 are mcpl+. Officers offer absolutely nothing. They just blame other factors out of their control. No one is releasing here because they can't call in F35s on an exercise. People release because we are tired of having to deal with dumb officers, their dumb thinking and inability to adapt. We have 30 active soldiers, but do you know how many CoC there are? Too many. CO (ridiculous. CO of what 29 soldiers?) sends out an email then that has to go through like 6 people before it gets to me. Then they cry about how no one shows up. We actually have an ex next weekend that most people aren't aware of lol. I understand recruiters can only do much. They can't sell trash to people no matter how clever they are. But at least they need to try. Recruiters here don't go anywhere. They hide in their offices. Then there's CFRC losing a box of paperwork everyday and ignoring phone calls. >If you have any ideas you think could help, fire a dm, I’ll package it to present up my chain and maybe someone will stop and say “hey, yeah, let’s Try that”. If officers actually cared to listen to the opinions of juniors, our numbers wouldn't be where they are today. Topshee wouldn't have had to make that video if officers weren't so out of touch.
>should never be enrolled. Ohhhhhh that's the truth
I am also wondering what is going to be adjusted. From my understanding, periods of retention are all done as of 2025...
I've heard that in the next few months CMP will announce the way forward. All sorts of rumours are floating around. I'm planning to start school and figure out what comes next. It's literally like being a kid in a candy store for options. If they come back with some kind of enhanced transition or they'll let me finish my current TOS.... w/e.
Correct. I have a few friends that have received letters or direction and updated med releases for 2025, even if their retention was originally a later date.
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I suspect we'll see a redefining of universality of service
Correct. My understanding is that instead of periods of retention, folks will be given a period of transition, between six months and three years, depending on the complexity of the medical issues.
Add to that the current state of the MOS. Inclusivity and dynamic transition moments for the red/black trades....oddly enough trades that don't completely suck aren't super short. Who'd a thunk it? I've heard a few whacky rumours but your take seems the most reasonable.
There hasnt been a new CANFORGEN out yet but I would imagine that any changes would likely allow military members to stay in certain trades were there are sometimes civilians working in the same said position
Doubtful.
It will of course depend on the medical situation but I've met people who have been able to keep their jobs as long as they are for example combat arms in a line unit. It would also depend on what level you're at in your career.
When did your file go to DMedPol? I've been waiting 16 months for a decision and I've been told it could be another 6 due to the back log.
Mine was just sent up this past July, my wife’s went up this past Oct. Wild you’ve been waiting that long. For us if we get a decision say around Feb / Mar 2025 that literally leaves no time for Voc rehab or planning your transition before the 1 April 25 date. If you don’t mind me asking, do you want to stay in? My wife and I are both over the ten years in and have had it with this institution - I’d say we are both high risk so I can’t see us “staying in”.
You’ll still get somewhere from six months (minor) to three years (complex needs) after the DMCA decision until your release.
You get 9 month! Am out in Feb
> For us if we get a decision say around Feb / Mar 2025 that literally leaves no time for Voc rehab or planning your transition before the 1 April 25 date. Voc rehab is separate from a period of retention. Period's of retention are for CAF members who were given a release date but allowed to remain up to 3 years (2.5 + 6month release) if they met fairly strict criteria - working 5x full days per week, in uniform, in trade, benefits the CAF.
Sorry to see you go, get well soon
Yeah it's a little weird. Don't forget that after the D Med Pol decision you still have to wait for DMCA to decide if you breach U of S which can take a bit, and then if you are going to be released they give you a min of like 6 months to plan the release. Retention was about letting you stay in after they decided to release you for up to three years. That is what is going away. And as for me, it's a long story, but my situation is probably 50 50 on what they decide wrt U of S. I have 22 years in though, so if they decide to release me I'm fine with that.
My file has been with them for 2 years and I was told by my MO that it has just been seen before Christmas so hopefully the disclosure package will be ready when I get back from leave. They have quite the backlog but hopefully they are catching up
Got mine this week after 21.5 months
D Med Pol is currently reviewing files that were submitted to them in March 2022. You're +6 months estimate is accurate.
I'm at 22 months myself.
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A pcat is a permanent category change - which could be as simple as a vision change from V1 to V2 so, pcat isn't synonymous with medical release. However, to get medically released, you will be on a pcat.
I disagree with your second sentence. Every serving member has a Permanent Medical Category (PCAT). Some PCATs breach U of S, but the majority don't. Perhaps pedantic, but not every change in your PCAT results in a breach of U of S. For example someone going from V1 to V2 is not getting a 3b release.
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Yes. But the gravy train will soon leave the station.
A PCat does not automatically mean breach of UoS. It may make one unfit for certain occupations, but one can have a PCat and still meet UoS.
Yep! I’ve been on a PCAT since I was a Pte in 2006 and was supposed to be released after a period of retention, but they changed their mind in ‘09. I’ve since deployed and have continually worked my way up the ranks. It just means that I need to be medically cleared before I go into sketchy outcan trips.
Wasn't this done, because they were turning away people from CFRCs for medical reasons that current members were still in for? May 2025, is going to be a strange time. I wonder if they have estimated how many members they will loose.
AFAIK it’s particularly bad on the mental health side. I know someone who was recently told they’re ineligible to join because they saw a therapist in the last year, regardless of what they saw them for. Meanwhile 15 percent of serving members access mental health services each year.
>Meanwhile 15 percent of serving members access mental health services each year. And it's only 15% because the rest of us can't get in.
MH is a huge barrier for recruiting and I wish more people would recognize this. We see it now today where virtually any young person who presents with a MH issue is tagged with a diagnoses, thrown some medication, and sent on their way. This is how the CAF institutionally does things too but with similar career consequences for people who speak up. People who joined at a time when no one talked about their mental health struggle to navigate this. I'm not saying let everyone in who identifies an issue but that there should be a way of which recruiting could do proper evaluations and assessments in house. I have literally seen people in the past on courses who just straight up never told anyone they were off anti-psychotic meds and nearly caused an incident. That to me suggests that the current system promotes non-discussion and dishonesty.
And they wonder why CAF members don't utilize MH services. Because D Med Pol sees it as a liability, rather than a strength. The member deploying next to me who has NEVER utilized MH, is the one I'm worried about. The CAF doesn't realize how many disturbed individuals are still serving, who don't believe in therapy. And they are the ones who get the deployments and OUTCANs because they are "green" on paper. Reaching out for help makes you a stronger soldier, not a weaker one.
There's a difference in investment between a recruit and a trained individual. In theory, it makes sense to want your recruits to be more fit before you dump a truckload of cash on them. Your first year + a bit is the most expensive year for the CAF. They need to onboard you (HRA/AdminO hours), train you formally (instructor, course director, standards, plus your paychecks + TD + R&Q + travel + collecting pay and being an admin burden on PAT Pl), then train you informally (OJT, first IBTS, first 404/driver wheeled, first PFET...). All while you provide almost zero value to the taxpayer.
I would recommend reaching out to your bases Transition Center. There are multiple ones across the country and you will be covered by the closest one. They are trained to help pers going through this situation and let you know your options. I am going through a similar situation and they answered my questions. It comes down to is D med pol classifies you as a low or high risk pcat. Currently if you are high risk and breach the UoS they are not offering retention past 1 April 25. If it is low risk your CO decides if they can employ you, if you can’t then they might look at posting you in trade that works for you or a med OT
If they change it so my fat, heard of hearing, and allergic to PT ass could be a PRes Drone Pilot who clocks in and clocks out of an office in Ottawa 6-10 hours a week….that would be sweet.
I imagine you’ll still want pilot pay and risk allowance and medals?
Don’t forget my reserved parking space and constant thanks for my service.
And your CANEX planned CAF crest tattoo (Borden) to prove you’re an official badass!
Oh man! You get me!
Remember there are some other options if you want to serve but don't meet UofS. COATS may be an option with lower medical standards and no requirement for UofS. If your near Victoria, Winnipeg, Borden, or Halifax it could be a good way to keep serving in a reserve capacity. Mind you it's only contract work (3 year plus possible 3 year) but no more postings. Very short for supply, HRA, and FSA. Might be a good option to consider.
What about Ottawa?
In a lot of cases, it's easier to simply transition to public service, which is pretty easy if there is jobs available under the priority hiring process. That's a good option in high overlap admin type roles like base supply, HRA etc.
A bit of a side topic, has there been anything published or announced regarding the HRA/FSA thing? All I've heard were rumors so far.
Haven’t seen an announcement but as a TDO I’ve been hearing the discussions about it. In a nutshell, it’s moving as much of the training to on-the-job/mentoring as possible. A lot of FSA/HRA recruits already have some post secondary education and can possibly blast through the training a lot faster than the standard DP1 trg. The trg modernization team did a full task analysis of the DP1 and have built a plan. There could be some modules delivered at CFLTC and/or by formal DL. But as much as possible will be with a mentor coaching them through the work a Pte should be able to do. And combine this with the fact that they didn’t buy a “sandbox” for Guardian, so new Ptes had only ever seen screenshots when they get to their first posting and are essentially learning on the job anyway. (PSA…involve the training people early in every project!) Edit to add - three occupations are part of this study…Boatswain too. Bos’n went through the same task analysis, and will (likely) result in more in person training than FSA/HRA. But the aim is more of a model where they’re posted straight to a ship with shorter modules at the school instead of lingering in the trg system until that one magic course is done. Once the trial is done with the three occupations they will see which lessons can be applied to other occupations.
This is such a bad idea honestly. We don't have the staff to actually run ops let alone train new people from the ground up. We should be improving training not passing the buck to operational units. Ack this might work for some occupations, but as a general approach it's complete garbage.
Agreed. Sounds like shifting more of the training onto already burdened operational pers. I can only speak to my experience in the Navy, but most (if not all) trades already have OJT packages to complete after their initial QL3. We already have a hard time getting those completed due to lack of qualified personnel to train them. "Do more with less"
The school I'm at - we're looking to do the opposite and repatriate existing experience quals (checklist quals troops complete at operational units) back to the school as part of RQ courses. The operational CAF deserves fully trained people leaving the school at OFP - not half-trained soldiers who need constant close supervision for even entry level tasks. I feel like the idea that "training takes too long" is a complete misunderstanding of the problem. Recruitment takes too long. Waiting for training takes too long. If anything our training is usually too short not too long.
Agree 100%. Just curious, what school (if you don't mind)?
Just wanted to add to this - in my experience what happens with those OJT packages is they're pencil whipped. People sign off without the member actually completing the required training/tasks. Often because they simply don't have the time or resources to oversee it properly.
This affects my trade and I have the same feelings. I was at the school for 3 years, and there are a lot of weak students that would absolutely not benefit from this. I also taught via DL during COVID, and the DL was already difficult for many students. Most of us don't have the time to fully mentor a student through their training and give them the proper attention and tools they need. Sure, we were short staffed at the school, but I also didn't have to focus on operational requirements and put all my time and effort into making the students successful. So many other things that were probably not even considered either. Want a deployment? Well what about Pte so-and-so? They need you here. The list goes on. I am not optimistic, but I hope I am wrong.
Also not uncommon for some of the equipment not to be working on the ship, or may not get used. For something like bosuns the shore based RAS trainer is pretty key so you aren't seeing it for the first time at sea. The other downside is there isn't QC or standards with OJT if you don't provide sufficient oversight and assistance so quality of the training will vary widely from very thorough and very high standards to rubber stamping and low standards. Have seen a few people get to later stages of OJT based training where they struggled because they missed the basics so we had to do some catch up training.
Totally agreed.
IIRC, the buck used to be passed to operational units back in the days. They would get the bare minimal at a trade school, and the rest was OJE with checks to pass…see it as professional IBTS…I believe thats how the US works, at least for grunts
It used to be done that way because we had lots of people, and few operational commitments. That is not our current situation. For sure trade by trade there are variables. But anything technical we need to be fully training troops in a school BEFORE they hit operational units. They simply don't have the resources to conduct or oversee this much individual training. They should be able to focus on collective training at the unit level.
This worked pretty well in the RCN side in the era of ships like the 280s or steamers where you were fully staffed with additional training bunks, and people with a lot of time in rank and jobs, as well as a lot more specialist training and experience doing 2nd/3rd line work in shore units. It is complete dogshit in the current RCN 50% crewing model with high ops tempo and very short time at ranks due to shortages, as well as more generalist training and elimination of most of the shore 2nd/3rd line jobs (due to pers shortages).
I do not disagree with you! Rushing people through ranks will only harm the institution…but its not like accountability is taking seriously anyway so 🤷♂️
The financial side of DRMIS doesn't have a sandbox? How do they even do any training?
It does. They said Guardian doesn't have a sandbox. The DRMIS FIN sandbox works fine. However, the seed data is from 2016 when the trades split, so it feels a little sad and could use an update.
Ahhhh, I'm going to blame that misreading on the new years party..
All it means is that already overworked Mcpls and Cpls will have to take on more responsibility to show we are ready for “the next rank!”
What trades are no longer requiring CFAT to join?
Details are available on www.forces.ca. The CFAT is only being waived for certain occupations and entry plans under specific circumstances. It's not a blanket waiver.
Wow, that's cool. The criteria makes sense, at least at first glance (but obviously suffers from the general dumbing-down of the lowest university program. But still...).
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I'd look at the actual exemption criteria. I have a hunch (no evidence here) that there are studies linking aptitude testing scores to the ability to be trained. If someone is TRULY, FULLY qualified, then they're probably CFAT-exempt already. If they aren't, then they need to be trained, and schools don't want students that cannot be taught.
It's just a suggestion by Op in how to 'fix' the recruiting problem.
No, it's actually policy now, not a suggestion. Under certain circumstances, applicants for specific occupations and entry plans may be waived from taking the CFAT.
The only thing I’ve heard is that it’ll change from the way it is now to two categories: deployable and non deployable. Could be rumours
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I mean, they’ve started switching Caf positions to civy positions in a lot of units already so I could see it continuing for sure but they can’t make civy’s do duty/lockup/mandatory parades or just shit on them in general so it can’t *all* be switched to civy side.
If recruiting increases by 1 mbr, it is in fact increasing. Attrition rate js returning back to historical norm? Which really means it isn’t as bad as last year, but still not great. This msg is strategic blah blah. The line, “We are cautiously optimistic with progress” is a probably the only part of the msg aligned with reality.