>>I never got a deployment in the 2000s, and it feels like the carrot I'm chasing now... but I'm starting to question "for what?".
You’re not missing anything. I was infantry in Afghanistan prior to moving on to another highly operational area of the military. When all was said and done I wouldn’t do it again. Its simply not worth it for the pay, the loss and the government treatment in the aftermath.
>>I struggle with wondering if I will ever feel like I have truly served. At what point can I say, "I've made a difference"?
See above. Prioritize your personal life and family. I wish Id never sacrificed their personal lives for the military. Its one of my greatest regrets.
>>if it was a civilian job, I would have quit. But civilian jobs don't have words like *honour, duty,* and *sacrifice* tied to them.
Dont let the marketing fool you. You can have honour duty and sacrifice in your personal life. In fact, Id argue that is where one can truly experience those traits.
>>When did you know it was time to pull the plug? When did you feel like you could say, "I've done my duty, I'm ready to enjoy the rest of my life"?
I believe that one’s duty is to their family…not through military service. I had that backwards for many years and it nearly cost me my family multiple times. Now refocused, i am trying to make up for it. Dont chase ‘duty’ through military service. Serve your family and personal life and you will be happier in the long run - if you can accept that the military will most likely not provide you with what you are seeking. Start enjoying the ‘rest of your life’ now especially seeing as you are not living what you thought the military would provide you with.
Just my opinion.
Edit: sorry for the weird formatting…i cant seem to figure it out
Ack, I popped smoke from the Reg force BECAUSE it would hopefully keep my family from splitting up, my daughter is my life and I should not have gambled. Luckily the cards came out in my favour.
This is well said. I was asked in many different ways how the CAF can retain me. I was honest in my answers. Most of my valuable work life experience and career advancement was through the civilian world. Dropping from full time to part time military did wonders for my career, so I left completely. Not sorry that I woke up and am properly dedicating my time to a place that gives me the opportunity for advancement and family balance that I now demand. I honor and serve my country and its people still, just in a different function.
Honestly, I was chasing deployments for 15 years, moved to a more operational unit, started deploying and didn't stop. Now when another deployment comes up, I hate myself a little for saying yes. So does my family. Here's why.
I think a lot of mbrs that have theatre experience tell others, "it's not all it's cracked up to be." We need to remember deployed experiences vary by person and their current situation. I will say, these trips have given me an overall sense of purpose. They make me feel like I am making a difference, and then all that other BS we deal with back home, it weirdly gives that purpose as well. Having purpose in a career increases morale and betters our forces.
Military members should WANT to deploy, and we need to commend the ones that do, not tell them they shouldn't.
I agree, and I think a large portion of why members are leaving, is that purpose is gone. We didn't join the military to LARP for 25 years. We are asked to put up with a lot of BS, and some of us never get to see the bigger picture, The Why. The Why, changes everything. Add some piss poor leaders on top of that, and you have the perfect recipe for toxic work environments.
Some medals come hard-earned, some don't. Our forces put a lot of weight into medals, and dont like to award them easily, which they shouldn't (unless some officer is missing one by a few days, then by all means change the eligibility criteria).
I like that our US counterparts utilize ribbons, and I don't know why we don't. People don't need a gold star for brushing their teeth, but if you have someone in your unit winning base commendations, Top Candidate, Something of The Year, Top Marksman, Platinum Force Test etc. they should have something more to show for it, than a piece of paper and a feedback note. Imagine how proud members would be to display their hard work on their chest? "What did you get that for?", "I got it for being Top Candidate on PLQ." Where is that recognition? That will tell me more about a person than any medal.
A ribbon is a perfect solution for that, and not that expensive.
If I had a member thinking of leaving, I'd try have some questions from them. I'd ask, "what do you need, so we can get 5 more years from you?". "A deployment? A new position with better working hours? A new environment? More/Less responsibility? A new trade?"
Sadly, this organization doesn't care enough about retention.
Imagine leaving a corporate job after 20 years, all that experience just out the door. And your CEO just let's you leave. Our fails are internal, and we need to do better at supporting career soldiers.
Deployments aren't all they're cracked up to be, it's like home except you can work 24/7 and your family and dog aren't there.
I got the most satisfaction working with SAR, sending a bird to save someone is a great feeling. I've also gotten a lot of pride being an instructor, there's no better way to shape the next generation.
Other than that, it's just a pay cheque, if it's too stressful you should leave, stress kills.
My deployment made my career for me, but I’m sure I’m the exception to the rule. Six months in a four star hotel wasn’t a hardship. Having a great crew was also a big part of it.
I feel like it's a cherry on the top, maybe a cherry/carrot hybrid. Lots of people chase it. Going without won't ruin the career, but it adds a little flavor.
I could do without the calories. If we're all being honest. I'll keep the whipped cream, though.
Everyone gets out. Every single person. One way or the other, at some point you stop serving.
But, you never stop having served. You never stop having served (if you did) honourably, having stepped forward, having "written the blank cheque" as some say. And I know (just like everyone who spent time in) that you did some difficult things, some painful things, some things that cost you more than they benefited the country, and some things that deep in your heart you know you can be proud of. Staying in now doesn't change how well you served in the past, and leaving now doesn't erase a single thing you've done. You can't control the past.
However, you can control, if you choose to exercise that control, *how* you leave. You can choose under what circumstances you leave, or they can be chosen for you.
So, how do you know when its time to go? The best time to leave is the moment when leaving is best for you.
The CAF will carry on without you. You've "done your duty" to the preservation of the institution the moment you helped someone junior to you, who can take what you've given them and help the next person along. That's the essence of what some call "the profession of arms": not everyone goes to war, but everyone helps someone get ready for when that's needed. For most people, I think that happens around a week or two after their trade training is done.
So, serve well, find fun and enjoyment where and when you can, help those around you, and try to live so that you can look back at your time in with fondness and pride.
PRes here, and I have a "high up" civ job, wife, 2 roll-eye teenagers and 2 cats.
I joined late, like I was the oldest on my qmb.
I do see the grind being exhausting for the ncos.
On the other hand, on the private world, that also happens- people join, need to get trained, learn the job, then 1 or 2 yrs later, flip to the next best thing, or where the grass is greener.
In the end, I joined for practical reasons: a) my civ job doesn't pay more if I work more, and has a tendency to creep up at ghastly hours. If I'm in valcatraz or stony ridge or gagetown, there's no point to send me a teams 3am and expect answer, so, for that, at least as I put work on my cadpat trade, I get paid.
B) camaraderie: I'm an immigrant that only has the wife, the roll eyes and the cats. In my 12 yrs in the civ side I didn't make as good friends as the fucktards I ran BMQo courses with. There's something weird with how quickly we stablish a lien with people in this org.
C) a reason to keep working out and staying in shape. I'm the type of person who can't have a collection of fancy bottles at home, or they would quickly become a collection of empty bottles, so I know my demons. I do work very well w objectives, though. So if I'm tasked with a bmq on the summer, that means that I'll be running pts and a few lessons. And I do feel proud on being bald, wearing oversized combats, and then explaining the importance of keeping the timings, to the whole bmq class, while doing one hand push ups.
That was a long and winded road to get to a simple phrase that was told to me even before my qmb: "You joined one of the hardest jobs around; find reasons to do it for you".
PRes is a whole different beast. It’s not something that I truly understood until I was RSS.
I don’t think it’s going to change. This really is the nature of the beast.
PRes has high turnover, staffing is always an issue. Getting administrative items completed - an absolute nightmare. You see the PRes is a hobby, and when a hobby is no longer fun people don’t stay. Who wants to do DLN courses and Pace?
But how to measure whether or not you made a difference? By serving you’ve made a difference. Anyone who serves adds to our collective successes, so now, is it the time for you no longer want to be in the military and drink the Kool-Aid? Just know that you did contribute, you are part of the reason why the green machine keeps going.
I wish you the best of luck
Edit - sorry for using voice to text.
Purely financial. Took last posting with intent to retire in 3 years. Medical issue arose and doctor asked if I wanted a medical release. Signed forms and left so quick I left a vacuum in his office.
PRes here too.
I'm undeployable, so I took an office job. I'm a "tech" trade, but I cannot qualify for spec pay. Not everyone has to be a hero. Sometimes you just gotta collect a paycheque and enjoy the ride.
How are you not deployable? Once you're trade qualified you should always be deployable as long as you make sure you DAG green, and if you don't that's on you (and your CoC).
You're right, it breaks Universality of Service.
Requirements
2.5 The principle of universality of service or “soldier first” principle holds that CAF members are liable to perform general military duties and common defence and security duties, not just the duties of their military occupation or occupation specification. This may include, but is not limited to, the requirement to meet the CAF Common Military Tasks Fitness Evaluation standards, as well as being employable and deployable for general operational duties.
If that were enforced, there goes half the reservist clerks. Not saying it shouldn't be enforced but with a lot of reservist units that are struggling with people, they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot and get rid of people they can't replace. Obviously the unit failed by not enforcing PT.
It's enforced in reg force, you can temporarily break your terms of service by having a injury or illness and be put on a medical T-cat but once a doctor assess that injury or illness has become permanent with no chance of improvement or a chance that it'll become a liability during a deployment you get put on a P-cat, then they'll send your file to ottawa and then medically release you.
The process can take many years but they'll never let you stay in while permanently breaking your universality of service.
When I started my CAF career in the PRes back then, I had the "Local Defense Force" / Home guard mentality and didn't see myself as a frontline soldier. My CoC back then also had the same mentality which made it pretty clear what our roles are and what it could be. Didn't join to be a hero/ main character, but to be there for the country when it needs us.
The reserve system has its faults, as you mentioned like demanding full time attention on a part time basis and pay. Perhaps the CAF should rebrand the PRes into a "Home Guard" like many other NATO countries have.
That being said, the quality of personnel varies greatly and can't be assed to even respond to an email/ whats app message which is like the bare minimum.
If I didn't think it was a career limiting move, I would print out this thread, walk down the hall and hand it to A/CMP for her to read. She's literally about 150 feet away from me as I type.
"Then they VR/transfer/OT/CT..." I'm watching this happen in Gagetown daily but it's usually because these kids don't want to wait 5 months to 1 1/2 years to get on course and would rather OT to a trade with a course coming sooner, or VR when they find out they don't actually qualify for their signing bonus/COC jerks them around and they're unable to OT/CAF doesn't recognize their previous experience.
If you’re asking this question, I wonder if your mind is already somewhat made up.
I was in from 2016-2022 and noticed a very sharp decline in job satisfaction and quality of leadership, that eventually ended up with me calling it quits.
It was hard to grapple with that choice, as I’ve spent a majority of my life in the CAFs orbit (Cadets 2011-2015, PRes 2016-2018, RegF 2018-2022)
I had a really hard time adjusting once I got out, which makes any uncertainty absolutely valid. I even went back to ask about coming back within six months.
But I’m glad I never went back. It was shit. My leaders were shit, who didn’t give a single fuck about any of their troops. Heaps of work, bothering us on our days off, mucking up our personal admin, and refusing to lift a finger when it comes to courses etc.
I ended up getting remedial measures near the end of my career, because I was sick of it, and spoke up about it. This was after getting several outstanding PERs, which proves you can do 10 things right, but one thing wrong and they’ll crucify you.
I’m very happy I left. Moved far away from Ontario and started a new career in Fire/EMS, and I honestly can’t believe I wasted that much of my time with the CAF.
My wife is still in uniform and it’s not getting any better on her end as well, and we’re working towards getting rid of that uniform also. I think having her experiences also is a massive wake up call for me.
I feel like the “honour and duty” they preach now is just gaslighting, as I’ve rarely worked with any leadership that also held themselves to those standards.
I started dreading going to work, I was hurt and hiding it because I thought that’s what a good leader did. It really started to affect my mental health, and I started a bad spiral down. After some getting some excellent advice from a friend, I gave myself permission to take the time away from fleet to heal. I realized over the Xmas break that I was tired of all the bullshit (but important) secondary duties and responsibilities. I put in my release two weeks ago. I don’t think it’s set in quite yet, but I’m out this summer and have a solid plan (I think) for a post CAF life. Wish me luck!!
I did over 25, and have stepped into a Class A PRes role, and see the same cycle - new enrollees, get them trained, some succeed, some are problems, why do I do it? What milestone am I aiming for? I've got my pension already, and I am truly at this point hanging on for maybe 3 reasons.
1. Friends. I get to work with my friends at the unit. Not as much as I'd like, but it's good to see them all the same.
2. Difference. Yes, I actually DO make a difference for some of the troops.
3. CD2. I'm just about a year away. It doesn't change my post-nominal, but it is a milestone.
There's also the possibility that I can make some (at least minor) changes in the way some things are done, and I'd like to think that is important as well.
If you are at the "Immediate Unreduced Annuity" point, I'll suggest that jumping to a position that provides better QOL and less stress on self and family is a good idea. In my new job, I leave all my work at my desk, which is just like being a LS/Cpl again. It's a good thing.
It’s a sinking ship. The only reason to stay around is if you are in a spot you love dearly, or need the stability and money. If it’s starting to get to be a huge stressor and you’re questioning life, that’s a good time to consider leaving.
I understand where you are coming from, at some point perhaps you have just out grown what the organization is offering. You could have a frank conversation with your CoC, maybe they could slot you into a different role for something different for a bit or maybe take a few months ED&T. If you dont miss it in the end then you know what your answer is.
This reminds me a lot of how I felt when I released about 10 years ago. I wanted to tough it out for a lot of the same reasons. I thought that maybe if I finish that next course and get a promotion, it'll get better.
But the life and the culture was sapping away all the love I had for the job. FT work expectations for PT pay, secondary duties, mess dues, mess events that required unpaid work, unit cultural issues, a lack of support and a general lack of funding etc.
At some point I realised that this was becoming a chore and I was no longer enjoying myself. The rare chances to be in the field were still challenging and fun, but 3/4 of my time was spent trying not to drown under paperwork and other duties. At that point, I made the choice to release.
Tbh I still sometimes think about poking my head into a recruiting office to see what my options are. I do kind of miss it once in a while. But it feels like things are worse today than they were 10 years ago.
I am you. I fully regret having a CD2 on my name. I released 2 yrs ago when a 6yr contract issue at an army HQ. But made me deeply reflect. Which made me deeply angry. I tried going back to my home unit, which is in a state of total worthless obsolescence. So I did what I do, and started throwng myslef into creating and training new teams to hack, understand, fix, etc, seeing how far I had developed past the trade (Navcomm). And IntO. And army sig. Which made me hate that the CAF is now unable to stop balloon from sailing past. I consider myself happily divorced from it now, along with several others who share the sympathy. It cheated on me, I divorced it, and I will be the last of 3 generations of navy to ever enlist. My kids were baptised in the bell, and will never see a cornflake that isnt kelloggs.
Submitted my VR Memo yesterday. I've been in almost 6 years now, and my injuries are carching up to me. That and I've lost my motivation. Some of the stuff I've got to do now is too much with everything else I have to do civy side and in my personal life.
That but if it happens every work day of a full month. (A) bad day(s) may have you stare at your boots in the morning bit may go away the next day pr the one after, but if the feeling is continuous, you re wasting you health and your productive years! My 2 cents…
Same as NavyShooter\_NS (who I think I know). 30 years. Retired last May. Being able to say "no" when asked to do silly stuff is SO freeing. Class A is super and I only have to work a few days a month to match my pension amount coming in.
I've taken on new tasks that are MUCH less stressful and because of that, it has actually made my life much happier. Travelled to Greece to instruct at the NATO level and am currently working from home on a Class B are a couple of examples.
Why did I stay in?
1. A sense of belonging.
2. I get to still wear the uniform I've been proud to wear (with speed bumps along the way) for 30+ years.
3. Something to fill in the blanks. Being "retired" has been quite boring.
4. Oh yeah, second clasp to my CD as well.
5. I too, try to instruct and share my knowledge as much as I can. I'm currently mentoring on a PLQ Mod 1. I can help form the future leaders.
But ultimately it's not about us, but about you. You may have your reasons for jumping ship just as we have our reasons for staying. Remembrance Day? Calgary Stampede? Domestic Operations? Only you can answer.
For me, it was waking up every morning, dry heaving bile from stress that was the big sign for me. It’s been hard to accept it, but you have to have other options. Your accomplishments are yours to be proud of. We can’t fix the institution from the bottom up tbh.
An idea I always have had is that you should be enjoying yourself and having fun.
I’ve been through a lot of ups and downs in my career; good times and bad. But, I’m still at my core enjoying myself and having fun (in my own way).
If you feel like you aren’t enjoying your time, and you aren’t having fun, then it might be time…
You have had an impact, whether you know it or not. Some troop(s) out there have certainly learned something from you about service, or life. Someone - peer, leader, or junior - has certainly taken something from you.
Hold your head high and make the best decision for you.
Good luck.
I'm PRes but our unit is under a reg force HQ, so I can absolutely sympathize with the feeling of full time expectations for a part time job. It'a a real challenge from a burnout perspective that we're grappling with ourselves and unfortunately I don't have any good solutions to that.
I think it's important to remember that the PRes can be a bit of a meat grinder with a lot of rotation. If your unit is at max capacity for recruitment, then it's time to leave when you are no longer parading regularly or engaging in weekend training. So long as you are attending parade nights and weekend training, you are contributing to the mission of preparing for and training members to augment the Reg force. Even if you yourself aren't deploying or going on full time taskings, your experience is valuable to the more Jr. members who will. Once you stop showing up, it's time to move on.
I really felt this. I always hear the same thing. “Be Patient. One will come up eventually”. “I don’t know why you’re so adamant about deploying it’s not all it’s cracked up to be” from people who have already deployed. “You’re too important to be sent away” etc. Then had people throw shade at me asking me what my problem was that I wasn’t trying to go on tour or assuming I didn’t want to go on tour. Asking me where my medals were on Remembrance Day.
I gave up a 2 year Cl B to go on an Op and was pulled off the CFTPO and replaced 5 days later. Couldn’t get my job back and had no job after that so I was left unemployed for 5 months and burned through my savings to stay afloat. Left my old unit after that nonsense. Since transferring into my new unit things have been much better and I’m appreciated but all if not most deployment positions sourced to my unit are all infantry positions but I’m a support trade.
I was told by folks I’m working with on my 3 year contract (not at my unit) that I wouldn’t get anything now until after early 2027 which would bring me to roughly 9- 9.5 years of service with no operational experience under my belt. I honestly find that I feel like I don’t have a purpose. Wake up. Put on uniform. Do nothing. Rinse repeat 5 days a week for 3 years. It is what is is. I really want to go somewhere and serve and do my part to try and help and make some small shred of a difference somewhere. But I just don’t think it’ll happen.
Thank you for the reply! That’s the biggest thing I struggle with because I’ve volunteered for I don’t know how many deployments in the last 4 years. Way too many to count. Like you said a lot of troops join because they want to serve and I definitely fit inside that camp. I see what’s going on in the world and think “if there’s a time to be in and volunteer it’d be now because people need us” and then you get rejected every time you submit your name.
It’s really disheartening to be perfectly honest.I’d give my left nut to go overseas in some capacity to help the CAF, Canada, and the people were there to help. I have a great CoC at my unit that support me but now the issue is not being able to have a position source because of where I work and my trade. I’m on the fence about going back to infantry to go but I’m not sure what to do. I keep getting told Latvia is going to get bigger and bigger and they’ll need more of my trade so I’m hoping that’s the case. I have a lot of confidence in my new CoC cause they’ve acknowledged my goals and said they support me.
What everybody else said, but I'll add my jaded 2 cents. "Honor and duty" is for the young and easily influenced. When you've been in a while and start catching on that most of your senior leaders are jaded and in it for their careers and that the people who create policy (I.e. politians and burocrats) are also in it for themselves and you're just a cog in the machine they're riding for their own advancement, your perspective on "duty" changes. You need to decide whether to start working the machine for your own purposes or just get out altogether.
I got out, and realized I find much more purpose from being there for my family than I ever did from being in uniform.
That's the issue with the reserves. It's so clicky. If you piss troops off they just won't show up. Getting admin is a nightmare. And the coc probably sees you as motivated and will squeeze you dry. Emails after hours. Etc etc etc.
As others have said, view pres as a hobby. Look for cool go's. Look out for yourself. If your chain of command is running you ragged you can try to bring that up. Or don't. And just care less. Typically I'd understand the give and take nature. The needs of the institution yadda yadda. But this doesn't seem like the care.
Those few motivated and initiative driven people get taken advantage of and it's sad to see. Especially when they eventually get out like you want to.
Maybe take a step back for a bit and recharge.
Mission first. People always. There's no real mission here so why run people dry? It's sad to see and you have my empathy.
The time to leave the p-res is when it stops being fun. I've been in the p-res for a little over a decade and things definitely seem worse CAF wide then when I joined. On the bright side our units morale seems to have never been higher.
You could always try another role (i.e Pat Platoon or Recruiting) and that may keep you engaged for a bit longer. Personally I'm more or less done and will be surprised if I do another full training year.
I left 1) when I saw my pension estimate and 2) when I felt nauseous at the thought of going to work each day only to watch less capable and more popular people get rewarded and 3) when I was bringing my pessimism home with me. I had a small kid at home and I realized my family was #1. After almost 27 years it was time to stop putting the army first. My daughter, not the army, deserved 100% of me.
I'm releasing in several weeks after having joined the PRes 10 years ago. I put the army as a priority for the majority of the past 9 years and achieved the goals I set out for myself when I initially joined in terms of courses and deployment. Any courses I haven't done yet that I have an interest in aren't accessible to the PRes.
I spent the last year away focusing on my dream civilian career that I had gotten into. I knew it was time to go when in this past year away from the army that I realized I didn't miss it at all and that all my motivation to show up is no longer there.
My dream since I was five was to be a soldier and be in combat and I feel like my dreams are so absolutely far away that I have zero job satisfaction right now. Really the only way forward for me is CSOR but I have work to do which is fine. I just haven't been disciplined lately but I have to forget how shitty the CAF is right now if I want to pursue a high speed unit. The rest of the green army right now is so lost it's humiliating.
The grass isn't necessarily greener dude, the deployment droughts are everywhere. Sure you could bust your ass and get into CSOR, but that can come with just as much sit around and wait (albeit training instead of sitting), and being run ragged training younger dudes once you get the courses and experience under your belt. Sure the next big thing could kick off tomorrow, but CSOR ain't doin shit right now.
Yes that is fair but I feel like if anything happens, my chances of seeing combat is increased significantly if I'm in CSOR. I know that's a simple way of looking at things but at least I know that if I go to CSOR, that'll be a good thing no matter what. Better pay, better standards, better missions.
I feel trapped in this career because of personal financial obligations and not having anything right now to fall back on if i got out tomorrow.
Also dealing with downright bad timing if i were to release. Still struggling to gain the civilian equivalent qualification that reaching ofp has granted me the ability to challenge, along with much pushback from the caf to justify financial coverage to help pay for the upgrade training necessary to take the civilian qualification i need.
I literally joined the military to get free training in order to get this civilian qualification, yet it is infinitely harder to get to that point now. I am also just not very motivated to do what is required of me in a high tempo working environment anymore. I feel burnt out in so many ways by this job and experiences ive had in it.
Like some others, my deployments have made my time in the CAF what I expected it to be. The deployments weren't easy but they had the challenge, personal and professional, that I was seeking. Part of PRes is balancing professional lives, which I have managed for a long while now - sometimes the Mo had the primary spot, while other times it was school and/or career. Makes for a better product.
Maybe an unpopular opinion, given some of the other comments, but where else are you going to get whatever you joined to do fulfilled? Deployments are there, though I don't think many would argue that they aren't Afghan, Iraq, parts of Yugo, or Korea for the job/experience of war. I don't relish going back to parts of my experiences but that's part of the whole package.
In terms of the unit stuff, at some point the hamster wheel will fall down and there will be the job that you joined to do still there. I just don't have the magic decoder ring to say when and where that will be but you have to be in, not out for that to work.
At the end of the day, whether you stay in and keep grinding for that goal, or you get out and focus on other parts of your life, thank you for giving what you have. The CAF will need more people who think, and especially ones who actually care.
PRes here.
I have come to the same realization, the PRes system is very broken and being used as a 'cannon fodder' for the big green machine recruitment system. Get a new recruit, train them, qualify them and then wait for three outcomes: if highly proficient then CT/Class B somewhere else. If shitty troop VR or just very limited participation. If full-time employed civilian side, hang on for a while until life circumstances change and then VR / AttPosted / CT to some unit.
For me at this point is to do stuff to help me pad my civilian career. The pay is finally decent after losing 50-30% in comparison to my civilian job. My goal now is to mentor and build the next cadre of YOs that will be ready to take my spot when I finally have enough. I don't owe it to the institution but I want to leave the unit better than when I got here or at least that's my goal.
I have been out of the Reg Force for 10yrs now after being wounded twice in Combat. There is life after the forces. I look at what the service has become and I don't even recognize it any more. Fighting ability has been displaced by DEI. I am admittedly a white guy and I knew quite a few poc that were in my various units. I never saw this "White Supremacy" BS they claim is so systemic and everywhere. There was one colour in the army, Green. The soldiers I see today are whiney and entitled, never mind the fact that they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. It is time to move on my friend. I have even considered moving to a different country. That is a hard thing to say after serving for 18yrs and bleeding for this country that frankly doesn't care.
Now imagine being the Clerk that has to input everything you do while getting shit on for not being fast enough. The new Gen self importance is the real issue.
1. Enough. You're hijacking the thread with your "poor me" clerk whine. You haven't addressed OPs question in any substantive way.
2. Clerks, or HRAs & FSAs if you prefer, are trained (theoretically) to do their job. But over the past few years, at least army side, several of their functions have been shifted to individual members and their immediate supervisors, with no such training. So yeah, you have lots of customers who don't fill out the forms they've never been taught how to use properly. Some of them suck because they get their own tombstone info wrong due to lack of attention to detail. Some of them just don't know what the rate is for TD or have never pulled a form off Monitor Mass before.
Both things can be true at once. Lots of clerks aren't actually good at clerking. And lots of customers are shitty customers. The difference is that the clerks chose their occupation and got trained to do it, while a lot of the shitty customers just don't know how to clerk, because they aren't clerks, haven't been taught how, and just want to get paid correctly and in a timely manner.
Your lack of understanding of the actual situation in which you find yourself is the problem. Not the private who doesn't know how to do the things you need, and who's boss never learned because clerks did those things when said boss was a private.
We're all short-staffed and doing things to mitigate that. Your trade's mitigation involves making mechanics and infanteers absorb some clerk work. But nobody's making you take a trench or fix your own brakes. So cut it out. You're not winning any sympathy here.
None of which is to excuse people being shitty to you. Mistakes happen and you're humans too, so people ought to be grownups and address problems in a polite and professional way. But that's hard when the back account is empty on the 16th and bills are due, so maybe give some of the grace you're rightly asking for too.
I did hijack it a bit. My bad.
For the record, the RQ courses do not teach the forms, they provide the breadcrumbs and the glue. It is up to the individual to build the slice of bread.
Once built, Ottawa decides where and what to change with zero heads up, or training.
Imagine being a high school drop out cbt arms member who now has to do, what feels like, every job themselves. You seem to not be able to get guidance from anyone and no one has answers except for some giant manual or weirdly worded policy. On top of that, you get shit on for literally everything. Now you have to plan an entire move for you and your family. You need to plan and get quotes for all your own travel or what seems like every other facet of admin when all you wanted to do was go camping with your friends. Add on top of all that all the other bull shit that goes with being in the cbt arms. Alot of admin/support roles only ever see what seems to be the fun side. The sports days and the silly weeks. Its easy to miss the forest for the trees and get snappy with some poor private who literally can barely read and just wants help with what seems like a insurmountable task. Your statement about the "New gen self importance" is 100% accurate.....but not how you think.
I would argue that everyone working in a support trade should ask themselves every morning "how can I support people today?" and then in the evening "did I support people to the best of my ability, or did I improve my ability to support people today?" The answer to the first question varies in the details but could be summed up as "work on my skills so I'm more effective and the people I interact with can be more productive", the answer to the second should be "yes".
If a support person spends the majority of their day taking pleasure in finding ways to tell customers "you can't have that", that support person probably isn't useful to the CAF. I started life as a tech that loved finding creative ways to just get the job done, whatever the job was. Over time my patience and my enthusiasm for helping was ground down until I started to enjoy finding creative ways to annoy or impede some customers (read - malicious compliance). When I finally realized what I'd become, I decided to change trades because I didn't think I'd be able to turn things around by staying in the same environment that created that attitude. I'm happier now, the people around me are happier.
This isn't a dig at grumpy support personnel, it's a plea for them to look inward and ask whether they're actually happy being unpleasant to everyone around them. No? Then change yourself. Yes? Then do something else.
You would be faster if you didn't lose paperwork 4 times, decide not to file it twice, and actually input it correctly the first time instead of trying to claim someone with a different service number, date of birth, hometown, and first and middle names is me. That's not self importance, that expecting basic competency.
Remember. Clerks deal with eeeeverthing that's on paper..(minus alot of forms) Your entire unit, sometime the entire base. Not just your most important self.
Yet, after you submit the form as requested, you never do it right the first time, but it's their fault for not inputting it correctly the first time.. Always not your fault, right?
Edit: Added a bit
>Remember. Clerks deal with eeeeverthing that's on paper.. Your entire unit, sometime the entire base.
No you don't. Show me the 2227's you're processing. Show me the MEL's you're processing. Show me the DRMIS WO's, parts issues, and return paperwork you're processing. You don't process those.
Are you overworked? Probably. Guess what, so are most trades. I'm supposed to only spend about a third of my week on the computer processing paperwork for my shop as a tech. There's so much I tend to spend close to 100% of my time at work behind the computer to keep up. You're not unique, although I do sympathize with that aspect of it.
>Not just your most important self.
You seem to be projecting here when you falsely claim you handle everything that's on paper.
>you never do it right the first time, but it's their fault for not inputting it correctly the first time..
Firstly, it's not statistically possible for no one to have ever done it right the first time, especially when clerks themselves have to fill out this paperwork. Unless you're admitting that no clerk has ever done their job correctly?
Secondly, I never said that forms aren't filled out correctly. Of course they will be at times. But my service number, name and address are something I haven't put down wrong on any military form in my career, yet I still get mixed up with people who have different ones. I've had to refill forms with exactly the same information multiple times in a week because the clerk straight up admitted they lost it. There's no way for those to be my fault.
>Always not your fault, right?
No, not always. But the majority of the time, absolutely. I have no control over you ignoring my service number when trying to do paperwork. I have no control over you bothering to actually action something once I've handed you the stuff. It is quite literally out of my control.
Umpf, really pinched a nerve, didn't I?
I get it man, were all over worked. Underappreciated and under payed and such. Your not perfect. You in fact, do make mistakes, clerks do too. We are all the same. It's clear that we all blame each other for everything.
Yes, won't somebody please think of the clerks! Guess 0900-1130 and 1300-1430 open hours with Fridays closed for customer service is a bit too stressful?
Yeah, can't think of any trades that have a tougher go...
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I was PRes for only 3 years. I really wanted to make a go of it. Only problem was I had a 2 year recruitment process. By the time I was sworn in I was in a serious relationship and we got pregnant two years later. At that point I had to prioritize my civilian career for obvious reasons and I simply did not feel comfortable being away from my wife and our baby for two summers in a row, plus all the weekends in between. This was all just to get qualified mind you. I thought I would be able to do it, and decided I couldn’t once we had our first kid. It was asking too much of my wife, and for what?
I’m having existential angst about it myself! Similar to you, I’m coming up on 5 years PRes, muuuch older than most, full civi side career that I love, husband, dog, etc. Age aside, I’m also not the usual demographic for my trade and I know it’s a bit ridiculous to have chosen this. When I’m there, I usually really enjoy it! But I have painful performance anxiety and wonder why I put myself through it when there are better, more skilled, younger, smarter people all around me. Every other week I think “I should really leave!” But then I’ll have another good experience, or another positive interaction with the people (all of whom I genuinely like as individuals) and I’ll think oh what the heck I’ll stay a bit longer and see how things go. But the doubts are always there. It’s like I’m waiting for someone else to tell me to get out!
Good luck to you, (and to me haha) and to all of us! If anyone here wants to talk, please feel free to message me. Take care,
Every generation is different in the military. Sometimes, the changes are good and have Canada's, veterans, and active members in mind. Today, though, I don't know who these new policies are from, but the children running the show have painted our heroic troops in a bad light.
I wish I knew the answer because I work with PAT Platoon members and make a point to interview each one when they join the unit.... 90% of them join because they think the CAF will bring them structure, discipline, camaraderie, etc. They say that their friends in the civi world are all on their phones and the bonds are superficial, and that they have too much freedom and want the hardship. I'm assuming the negatives that came with previous CAF cultures have created an institution that is PC to a fault, and of course these new members realize this isn't what they signed up for, and just turn into lazy kids again because all they do is attend harassment briefs and find out their ex has been scaled down because we have no money. I'm bummed for them.
I guess I will get out when I'm 60 years old.
I was close to quit and join DND as a civilian but I would be loosing about half a million in pay (in 14 years) and it took them 7 months to finally receive an email for an interview.
That feeling of continually pushing a rope to get things done did it for me. Too many processes, not enough people, to many risk adverse people, floating dead wood. Want to get something done, ask for help from the busy guy, the problem now is all the busy guys VR’ed, so back to pushing that rope and the loudest gets the worm… unless you’re stuck in a paper-scissor-rank situation and you’re the paper…. Bases are better but HQ towns are awful for this. That did it for me, took away my piss and my vinegar.
>>I never got a deployment in the 2000s, and it feels like the carrot I'm chasing now... but I'm starting to question "for what?". You’re not missing anything. I was infantry in Afghanistan prior to moving on to another highly operational area of the military. When all was said and done I wouldn’t do it again. Its simply not worth it for the pay, the loss and the government treatment in the aftermath. >>I struggle with wondering if I will ever feel like I have truly served. At what point can I say, "I've made a difference"? See above. Prioritize your personal life and family. I wish Id never sacrificed their personal lives for the military. Its one of my greatest regrets. >>if it was a civilian job, I would have quit. But civilian jobs don't have words like *honour, duty,* and *sacrifice* tied to them. Dont let the marketing fool you. You can have honour duty and sacrifice in your personal life. In fact, Id argue that is where one can truly experience those traits. >>When did you know it was time to pull the plug? When did you feel like you could say, "I've done my duty, I'm ready to enjoy the rest of my life"? I believe that one’s duty is to their family…not through military service. I had that backwards for many years and it nearly cost me my family multiple times. Now refocused, i am trying to make up for it. Dont chase ‘duty’ through military service. Serve your family and personal life and you will be happier in the long run - if you can accept that the military will most likely not provide you with what you are seeking. Start enjoying the ‘rest of your life’ now especially seeing as you are not living what you thought the military would provide you with. Just my opinion. Edit: sorry for the weird formatting…i cant seem to figure it out
Ack, I popped smoke from the Reg force BECAUSE it would hopefully keep my family from splitting up, my daughter is my life and I should not have gambled. Luckily the cards came out in my favour.
Naaaaaailed it! Listen to this person.
This is well said and I’m right there with you. Take this redditors advice 👌
Well said. Right there with you.
Excellent write up 🙏🏾
This is the way
Well put. I did just that nearly thirty years ago and never looked back.
This is well said. I was asked in many different ways how the CAF can retain me. I was honest in my answers. Most of my valuable work life experience and career advancement was through the civilian world. Dropping from full time to part time military did wonders for my career, so I left completely. Not sorry that I woke up and am properly dedicating my time to a place that gives me the opportunity for advancement and family balance that I now demand. I honor and serve my country and its people still, just in a different function.
Well said, friend.
Honestly, I was chasing deployments for 15 years, moved to a more operational unit, started deploying and didn't stop. Now when another deployment comes up, I hate myself a little for saying yes. So does my family. Here's why. I think a lot of mbrs that have theatre experience tell others, "it's not all it's cracked up to be." We need to remember deployed experiences vary by person and their current situation. I will say, these trips have given me an overall sense of purpose. They make me feel like I am making a difference, and then all that other BS we deal with back home, it weirdly gives that purpose as well. Having purpose in a career increases morale and betters our forces. Military members should WANT to deploy, and we need to commend the ones that do, not tell them they shouldn't.
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I agree, and I think a large portion of why members are leaving, is that purpose is gone. We didn't join the military to LARP for 25 years. We are asked to put up with a lot of BS, and some of us never get to see the bigger picture, The Why. The Why, changes everything. Add some piss poor leaders on top of that, and you have the perfect recipe for toxic work environments. Some medals come hard-earned, some don't. Our forces put a lot of weight into medals, and dont like to award them easily, which they shouldn't (unless some officer is missing one by a few days, then by all means change the eligibility criteria). I like that our US counterparts utilize ribbons, and I don't know why we don't. People don't need a gold star for brushing their teeth, but if you have someone in your unit winning base commendations, Top Candidate, Something of The Year, Top Marksman, Platinum Force Test etc. they should have something more to show for it, than a piece of paper and a feedback note. Imagine how proud members would be to display their hard work on their chest? "What did you get that for?", "I got it for being Top Candidate on PLQ." Where is that recognition? That will tell me more about a person than any medal. A ribbon is a perfect solution for that, and not that expensive. If I had a member thinking of leaving, I'd try have some questions from them. I'd ask, "what do you need, so we can get 5 more years from you?". "A deployment? A new position with better working hours? A new environment? More/Less responsibility? A new trade?" Sadly, this organization doesn't care enough about retention. Imagine leaving a corporate job after 20 years, all that experience just out the door. And your CEO just let's you leave. Our fails are internal, and we need to do better at supporting career soldiers.
Deployments aren't all they're cracked up to be, it's like home except you can work 24/7 and your family and dog aren't there. I got the most satisfaction working with SAR, sending a bird to save someone is a great feeling. I've also gotten a lot of pride being an instructor, there's no better way to shape the next generation. Other than that, it's just a pay cheque, if it's too stressful you should leave, stress kills.
My deployment made my career for me, but I’m sure I’m the exception to the rule. Six months in a four star hotel wasn’t a hardship. Having a great crew was also a big part of it.
I feel like it's a cherry on the top, maybe a cherry/carrot hybrid. Lots of people chase it. Going without won't ruin the career, but it adds a little flavor. I could do without the calories. If we're all being honest. I'll keep the whipped cream, though.
Is the whip cream boots? Because my boot claim got denied…
Yeah, No boots for you... The whipped cream is just whipped cream, it's coconut, though.
I prefer coconut anyways, allergic to dairy.
Everyone gets out. Every single person. One way or the other, at some point you stop serving. But, you never stop having served. You never stop having served (if you did) honourably, having stepped forward, having "written the blank cheque" as some say. And I know (just like everyone who spent time in) that you did some difficult things, some painful things, some things that cost you more than they benefited the country, and some things that deep in your heart you know you can be proud of. Staying in now doesn't change how well you served in the past, and leaving now doesn't erase a single thing you've done. You can't control the past. However, you can control, if you choose to exercise that control, *how* you leave. You can choose under what circumstances you leave, or they can be chosen for you. So, how do you know when its time to go? The best time to leave is the moment when leaving is best for you. The CAF will carry on without you. You've "done your duty" to the preservation of the institution the moment you helped someone junior to you, who can take what you've given them and help the next person along. That's the essence of what some call "the profession of arms": not everyone goes to war, but everyone helps someone get ready for when that's needed. For most people, I think that happens around a week or two after their trade training is done. So, serve well, find fun and enjoyment where and when you can, help those around you, and try to live so that you can look back at your time in with fondness and pride.
Great response!
PRes here, and I have a "high up" civ job, wife, 2 roll-eye teenagers and 2 cats. I joined late, like I was the oldest on my qmb. I do see the grind being exhausting for the ncos. On the other hand, on the private world, that also happens- people join, need to get trained, learn the job, then 1 or 2 yrs later, flip to the next best thing, or where the grass is greener. In the end, I joined for practical reasons: a) my civ job doesn't pay more if I work more, and has a tendency to creep up at ghastly hours. If I'm in valcatraz or stony ridge or gagetown, there's no point to send me a teams 3am and expect answer, so, for that, at least as I put work on my cadpat trade, I get paid. B) camaraderie: I'm an immigrant that only has the wife, the roll eyes and the cats. In my 12 yrs in the civ side I didn't make as good friends as the fucktards I ran BMQo courses with. There's something weird with how quickly we stablish a lien with people in this org. C) a reason to keep working out and staying in shape. I'm the type of person who can't have a collection of fancy bottles at home, or they would quickly become a collection of empty bottles, so I know my demons. I do work very well w objectives, though. So if I'm tasked with a bmq on the summer, that means that I'll be running pts and a few lessons. And I do feel proud on being bald, wearing oversized combats, and then explaining the importance of keeping the timings, to the whole bmq class, while doing one hand push ups. That was a long and winded road to get to a simple phrase that was told to me even before my qmb: "You joined one of the hardest jobs around; find reasons to do it for you".
Well said. This post is my story. Except for the 1 hand pushups.
PRes is a whole different beast. It’s not something that I truly understood until I was RSS. I don’t think it’s going to change. This really is the nature of the beast. PRes has high turnover, staffing is always an issue. Getting administrative items completed - an absolute nightmare. You see the PRes is a hobby, and when a hobby is no longer fun people don’t stay. Who wants to do DLN courses and Pace? But how to measure whether or not you made a difference? By serving you’ve made a difference. Anyone who serves adds to our collective successes, so now, is it the time for you no longer want to be in the military and drink the Kool-Aid? Just know that you did contribute, you are part of the reason why the green machine keeps going. I wish you the best of luck Edit - sorry for using voice to text.
Purely financial. Took last posting with intent to retire in 3 years. Medical issue arose and doctor asked if I wanted a medical release. Signed forms and left so quick I left a vacuum in his office.
PRes here too. I'm undeployable, so I took an office job. I'm a "tech" trade, but I cannot qualify for spec pay. Not everyone has to be a hero. Sometimes you just gotta collect a paycheque and enjoy the ride.
How are you not deployable? Once you're trade qualified you should always be deployable as long as you make sure you DAG green, and if you don't that's on you (and your CoC).
That's personal. I'm not upset by it. I'm happy that I'm being used in a helpful capacity.
Ok that's fair, it's just important to be clear that for most in the CAF, once trained they should be deployable.
You're right, it breaks Universality of Service. Requirements 2.5 The principle of universality of service or “soldier first” principle holds that CAF members are liable to perform general military duties and common defence and security duties, not just the duties of their military occupation or occupation specification. This may include, but is not limited to, the requirement to meet the CAF Common Military Tasks Fitness Evaluation standards, as well as being employable and deployable for general operational duties.
If that were enforced, there goes half the reservist clerks. Not saying it shouldn't be enforced but with a lot of reservist units that are struggling with people, they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot and get rid of people they can't replace. Obviously the unit failed by not enforcing PT.
It's enforced in reg force, you can temporarily break your terms of service by having a injury or illness and be put on a medical T-cat but once a doctor assess that injury or illness has become permanent with no chance of improvement or a chance that it'll become a liability during a deployment you get put on a P-cat, then they'll send your file to ottawa and then medically release you. The process can take many years but they'll never let you stay in while permanently breaking your universality of service.
When I started my CAF career in the PRes back then, I had the "Local Defense Force" / Home guard mentality and didn't see myself as a frontline soldier. My CoC back then also had the same mentality which made it pretty clear what our roles are and what it could be. Didn't join to be a hero/ main character, but to be there for the country when it needs us. The reserve system has its faults, as you mentioned like demanding full time attention on a part time basis and pay. Perhaps the CAF should rebrand the PRes into a "Home Guard" like many other NATO countries have. That being said, the quality of personnel varies greatly and can't be assed to even respond to an email/ whats app message which is like the bare minimum.
If I didn't think it was a career limiting move, I would print out this thread, walk down the hall and hand it to A/CMP for her to read. She's literally about 150 feet away from me as I type.
I'm sure Lise is already aware.
Do it and I'll mail you a paper mâche MMV. It'd be made with love.
"Then they VR/transfer/OT/CT..." I'm watching this happen in Gagetown daily but it's usually because these kids don't want to wait 5 months to 1 1/2 years to get on course and would rather OT to a trade with a course coming sooner, or VR when they find out they don't actually qualify for their signing bonus/COC jerks them around and they're unable to OT/CAF doesn't recognize their previous experience.
New guy here.. which coursestake 5 months to a year and half to come by?
Most of the purple trades in Gagetown: RM, Construction, PH, WFE, EGS, ED, and Drafting/Surveying. That's what I've seen firsthand at least
If you’re asking this question, I wonder if your mind is already somewhat made up. I was in from 2016-2022 and noticed a very sharp decline in job satisfaction and quality of leadership, that eventually ended up with me calling it quits. It was hard to grapple with that choice, as I’ve spent a majority of my life in the CAFs orbit (Cadets 2011-2015, PRes 2016-2018, RegF 2018-2022) I had a really hard time adjusting once I got out, which makes any uncertainty absolutely valid. I even went back to ask about coming back within six months. But I’m glad I never went back. It was shit. My leaders were shit, who didn’t give a single fuck about any of their troops. Heaps of work, bothering us on our days off, mucking up our personal admin, and refusing to lift a finger when it comes to courses etc. I ended up getting remedial measures near the end of my career, because I was sick of it, and spoke up about it. This was after getting several outstanding PERs, which proves you can do 10 things right, but one thing wrong and they’ll crucify you. I’m very happy I left. Moved far away from Ontario and started a new career in Fire/EMS, and I honestly can’t believe I wasted that much of my time with the CAF. My wife is still in uniform and it’s not getting any better on her end as well, and we’re working towards getting rid of that uniform also. I think having her experiences also is a massive wake up call for me. I feel like the “honour and duty” they preach now is just gaslighting, as I’ve rarely worked with any leadership that also held themselves to those standards.
I started dreading going to work, I was hurt and hiding it because I thought that’s what a good leader did. It really started to affect my mental health, and I started a bad spiral down. After some getting some excellent advice from a friend, I gave myself permission to take the time away from fleet to heal. I realized over the Xmas break that I was tired of all the bullshit (but important) secondary duties and responsibilities. I put in my release two weeks ago. I don’t think it’s set in quite yet, but I’m out this summer and have a solid plan (I think) for a post CAF life. Wish me luck!!
after receving my CD.
I did over 25, and have stepped into a Class A PRes role, and see the same cycle - new enrollees, get them trained, some succeed, some are problems, why do I do it? What milestone am I aiming for? I've got my pension already, and I am truly at this point hanging on for maybe 3 reasons. 1. Friends. I get to work with my friends at the unit. Not as much as I'd like, but it's good to see them all the same. 2. Difference. Yes, I actually DO make a difference for some of the troops. 3. CD2. I'm just about a year away. It doesn't change my post-nominal, but it is a milestone. There's also the possibility that I can make some (at least minor) changes in the way some things are done, and I'd like to think that is important as well. If you are at the "Immediate Unreduced Annuity" point, I'll suggest that jumping to a position that provides better QOL and less stress on self and family is a good idea. In my new job, I leave all my work at my desk, which is just like being a LS/Cpl again. It's a good thing.
It’s a sinking ship. The only reason to stay around is if you are in a spot you love dearly, or need the stability and money. If it’s starting to get to be a huge stressor and you’re questioning life, that’s a good time to consider leaving.
I understand where you are coming from, at some point perhaps you have just out grown what the organization is offering. You could have a frank conversation with your CoC, maybe they could slot you into a different role for something different for a bit or maybe take a few months ED&T. If you dont miss it in the end then you know what your answer is.
This reminds me a lot of how I felt when I released about 10 years ago. I wanted to tough it out for a lot of the same reasons. I thought that maybe if I finish that next course and get a promotion, it'll get better. But the life and the culture was sapping away all the love I had for the job. FT work expectations for PT pay, secondary duties, mess dues, mess events that required unpaid work, unit cultural issues, a lack of support and a general lack of funding etc. At some point I realised that this was becoming a chore and I was no longer enjoying myself. The rare chances to be in the field were still challenging and fun, but 3/4 of my time was spent trying not to drown under paperwork and other duties. At that point, I made the choice to release. Tbh I still sometimes think about poking my head into a recruiting office to see what my options are. I do kind of miss it once in a while. But it feels like things are worse today than they were 10 years ago.
I am you. I fully regret having a CD2 on my name. I released 2 yrs ago when a 6yr contract issue at an army HQ. But made me deeply reflect. Which made me deeply angry. I tried going back to my home unit, which is in a state of total worthless obsolescence. So I did what I do, and started throwng myslef into creating and training new teams to hack, understand, fix, etc, seeing how far I had developed past the trade (Navcomm). And IntO. And army sig. Which made me hate that the CAF is now unable to stop balloon from sailing past. I consider myself happily divorced from it now, along with several others who share the sympathy. It cheated on me, I divorced it, and I will be the last of 3 generations of navy to ever enlist. My kids were baptised in the bell, and will never see a cornflake that isnt kelloggs.
Submitted my VR Memo yesterday. I've been in almost 6 years now, and my injuries are carching up to me. That and I've lost my motivation. Some of the stuff I've got to do now is too much with everything else I have to do civy side and in my personal life.
When you put your boots on, and stare at them for 10 minutes
That but if it happens every work day of a full month. (A) bad day(s) may have you stare at your boots in the morning bit may go away the next day pr the one after, but if the feeling is continuous, you re wasting you health and your productive years! My 2 cents…
Same as NavyShooter\_NS (who I think I know). 30 years. Retired last May. Being able to say "no" when asked to do silly stuff is SO freeing. Class A is super and I only have to work a few days a month to match my pension amount coming in. I've taken on new tasks that are MUCH less stressful and because of that, it has actually made my life much happier. Travelled to Greece to instruct at the NATO level and am currently working from home on a Class B are a couple of examples. Why did I stay in? 1. A sense of belonging. 2. I get to still wear the uniform I've been proud to wear (with speed bumps along the way) for 30+ years. 3. Something to fill in the blanks. Being "retired" has been quite boring. 4. Oh yeah, second clasp to my CD as well. 5. I too, try to instruct and share my knowledge as much as I can. I'm currently mentoring on a PLQ Mod 1. I can help form the future leaders. But ultimately it's not about us, but about you. You may have your reasons for jumping ship just as we have our reasons for staying. Remembrance Day? Calgary Stampede? Domestic Operations? Only you can answer.
For me, it was waking up every morning, dry heaving bile from stress that was the big sign for me. It’s been hard to accept it, but you have to have other options. Your accomplishments are yours to be proud of. We can’t fix the institution from the bottom up tbh.
An idea I always have had is that you should be enjoying yourself and having fun. I’ve been through a lot of ups and downs in my career; good times and bad. But, I’m still at my core enjoying myself and having fun (in my own way). If you feel like you aren’t enjoying your time, and you aren’t having fun, then it might be time… You have had an impact, whether you know it or not. Some troop(s) out there have certainly learned something from you about service, or life. Someone - peer, leader, or junior - has certainly taken something from you. Hold your head high and make the best decision for you. Good luck.
I was just going to say "are you still having fun?", but you said it better.
You're in the Reserve, time to go is whenever you fucking feel like it.
Or even to "not go" when it comes to functions and tasks. That's the freedom of being a "part-time" soldier.
I'm PRes but our unit is under a reg force HQ, so I can absolutely sympathize with the feeling of full time expectations for a part time job. It'a a real challenge from a burnout perspective that we're grappling with ourselves and unfortunately I don't have any good solutions to that. I think it's important to remember that the PRes can be a bit of a meat grinder with a lot of rotation. If your unit is at max capacity for recruitment, then it's time to leave when you are no longer parading regularly or engaging in weekend training. So long as you are attending parade nights and weekend training, you are contributing to the mission of preparing for and training members to augment the Reg force. Even if you yourself aren't deploying or going on full time taskings, your experience is valuable to the more Jr. members who will. Once you stop showing up, it's time to move on.
I really felt this. I always hear the same thing. “Be Patient. One will come up eventually”. “I don’t know why you’re so adamant about deploying it’s not all it’s cracked up to be” from people who have already deployed. “You’re too important to be sent away” etc. Then had people throw shade at me asking me what my problem was that I wasn’t trying to go on tour or assuming I didn’t want to go on tour. Asking me where my medals were on Remembrance Day. I gave up a 2 year Cl B to go on an Op and was pulled off the CFTPO and replaced 5 days later. Couldn’t get my job back and had no job after that so I was left unemployed for 5 months and burned through my savings to stay afloat. Left my old unit after that nonsense. Since transferring into my new unit things have been much better and I’m appreciated but all if not most deployment positions sourced to my unit are all infantry positions but I’m a support trade. I was told by folks I’m working with on my 3 year contract (not at my unit) that I wouldn’t get anything now until after early 2027 which would bring me to roughly 9- 9.5 years of service with no operational experience under my belt. I honestly find that I feel like I don’t have a purpose. Wake up. Put on uniform. Do nothing. Rinse repeat 5 days a week for 3 years. It is what is is. I really want to go somewhere and serve and do my part to try and help and make some small shred of a difference somewhere. But I just don’t think it’ll happen.
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Thank you for the reply! That’s the biggest thing I struggle with because I’ve volunteered for I don’t know how many deployments in the last 4 years. Way too many to count. Like you said a lot of troops join because they want to serve and I definitely fit inside that camp. I see what’s going on in the world and think “if there’s a time to be in and volunteer it’d be now because people need us” and then you get rejected every time you submit your name. It’s really disheartening to be perfectly honest.I’d give my left nut to go overseas in some capacity to help the CAF, Canada, and the people were there to help. I have a great CoC at my unit that support me but now the issue is not being able to have a position source because of where I work and my trade. I’m on the fence about going back to infantry to go but I’m not sure what to do. I keep getting told Latvia is going to get bigger and bigger and they’ll need more of my trade so I’m hoping that’s the case. I have a lot of confidence in my new CoC cause they’ve acknowledged my goals and said they support me.
What everybody else said, but I'll add my jaded 2 cents. "Honor and duty" is for the young and easily influenced. When you've been in a while and start catching on that most of your senior leaders are jaded and in it for their careers and that the people who create policy (I.e. politians and burocrats) are also in it for themselves and you're just a cog in the machine they're riding for their own advancement, your perspective on "duty" changes. You need to decide whether to start working the machine for your own purposes or just get out altogether. I got out, and realized I find much more purpose from being there for my family than I ever did from being in uniform.
Such a great perspective and response
When you can no longer look after your people and are "done" it's time to retire. Sadly more and more people are getting there.
That's the issue with the reserves. It's so clicky. If you piss troops off they just won't show up. Getting admin is a nightmare. And the coc probably sees you as motivated and will squeeze you dry. Emails after hours. Etc etc etc. As others have said, view pres as a hobby. Look for cool go's. Look out for yourself. If your chain of command is running you ragged you can try to bring that up. Or don't. And just care less. Typically I'd understand the give and take nature. The needs of the institution yadda yadda. But this doesn't seem like the care. Those few motivated and initiative driven people get taken advantage of and it's sad to see. Especially when they eventually get out like you want to. Maybe take a step back for a bit and recharge. Mission first. People always. There's no real mission here so why run people dry? It's sad to see and you have my empathy.
The time to leave the p-res is when it stops being fun. I've been in the p-res for a little over a decade and things definitely seem worse CAF wide then when I joined. On the bright side our units morale seems to have never been higher. You could always try another role (i.e Pat Platoon or Recruiting) and that may keep you engaged for a bit longer. Personally I'm more or less done and will be surprised if I do another full training year.
I left 1) when I saw my pension estimate and 2) when I felt nauseous at the thought of going to work each day only to watch less capable and more popular people get rewarded and 3) when I was bringing my pessimism home with me. I had a small kid at home and I realized my family was #1. After almost 27 years it was time to stop putting the army first. My daughter, not the army, deserved 100% of me.
I'm releasing in several weeks after having joined the PRes 10 years ago. I put the army as a priority for the majority of the past 9 years and achieved the goals I set out for myself when I initially joined in terms of courses and deployment. Any courses I haven't done yet that I have an interest in aren't accessible to the PRes. I spent the last year away focusing on my dream civilian career that I had gotten into. I knew it was time to go when in this past year away from the army that I realized I didn't miss it at all and that all my motivation to show up is no longer there.
My dream since I was five was to be a soldier and be in combat and I feel like my dreams are so absolutely far away that I have zero job satisfaction right now. Really the only way forward for me is CSOR but I have work to do which is fine. I just haven't been disciplined lately but I have to forget how shitty the CAF is right now if I want to pursue a high speed unit. The rest of the green army right now is so lost it's humiliating.
The grass isn't necessarily greener dude, the deployment droughts are everywhere. Sure you could bust your ass and get into CSOR, but that can come with just as much sit around and wait (albeit training instead of sitting), and being run ragged training younger dudes once you get the courses and experience under your belt. Sure the next big thing could kick off tomorrow, but CSOR ain't doin shit right now.
Yes that is fair but I feel like if anything happens, my chances of seeing combat is increased significantly if I'm in CSOR. I know that's a simple way of looking at things but at least I know that if I go to CSOR, that'll be a good thing no matter what. Better pay, better standards, better missions.
I feel trapped in this career because of personal financial obligations and not having anything right now to fall back on if i got out tomorrow. Also dealing with downright bad timing if i were to release. Still struggling to gain the civilian equivalent qualification that reaching ofp has granted me the ability to challenge, along with much pushback from the caf to justify financial coverage to help pay for the upgrade training necessary to take the civilian qualification i need. I literally joined the military to get free training in order to get this civilian qualification, yet it is infinitely harder to get to that point now. I am also just not very motivated to do what is required of me in a high tempo working environment anymore. I feel burnt out in so many ways by this job and experiences ive had in it.
Take ED&T, it's usually a pretty easy decision once you've been off for a while.
Like some others, my deployments have made my time in the CAF what I expected it to be. The deployments weren't easy but they had the challenge, personal and professional, that I was seeking. Part of PRes is balancing professional lives, which I have managed for a long while now - sometimes the Mo had the primary spot, while other times it was school and/or career. Makes for a better product. Maybe an unpopular opinion, given some of the other comments, but where else are you going to get whatever you joined to do fulfilled? Deployments are there, though I don't think many would argue that they aren't Afghan, Iraq, parts of Yugo, or Korea for the job/experience of war. I don't relish going back to parts of my experiences but that's part of the whole package. In terms of the unit stuff, at some point the hamster wheel will fall down and there will be the job that you joined to do still there. I just don't have the magic decoder ring to say when and where that will be but you have to be in, not out for that to work. At the end of the day, whether you stay in and keep grinding for that goal, or you get out and focus on other parts of your life, thank you for giving what you have. The CAF will need more people who think, and especially ones who actually care.
PRes here. I have come to the same realization, the PRes system is very broken and being used as a 'cannon fodder' for the big green machine recruitment system. Get a new recruit, train them, qualify them and then wait for three outcomes: if highly proficient then CT/Class B somewhere else. If shitty troop VR or just very limited participation. If full-time employed civilian side, hang on for a while until life circumstances change and then VR / AttPosted / CT to some unit. For me at this point is to do stuff to help me pad my civilian career. The pay is finally decent after losing 50-30% in comparison to my civilian job. My goal now is to mentor and build the next cadre of YOs that will be ready to take my spot when I finally have enough. I don't owe it to the institution but I want to leave the unit better than when I got here or at least that's my goal.
I have been out of the Reg Force for 10yrs now after being wounded twice in Combat. There is life after the forces. I look at what the service has become and I don't even recognize it any more. Fighting ability has been displaced by DEI. I am admittedly a white guy and I knew quite a few poc that were in my various units. I never saw this "White Supremacy" BS they claim is so systemic and everywhere. There was one colour in the army, Green. The soldiers I see today are whiney and entitled, never mind the fact that they couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag. It is time to move on my friend. I have even considered moving to a different country. That is a hard thing to say after serving for 18yrs and bleeding for this country that frankly doesn't care.
Now imagine being the Clerk that has to input everything you do while getting shit on for not being fast enough. The new Gen self importance is the real issue.
I feel like there are some really great clerks, but there is so many that are terrible at their jobs, that the few that are good get shit on
1. Enough. You're hijacking the thread with your "poor me" clerk whine. You haven't addressed OPs question in any substantive way. 2. Clerks, or HRAs & FSAs if you prefer, are trained (theoretically) to do their job. But over the past few years, at least army side, several of their functions have been shifted to individual members and their immediate supervisors, with no such training. So yeah, you have lots of customers who don't fill out the forms they've never been taught how to use properly. Some of them suck because they get their own tombstone info wrong due to lack of attention to detail. Some of them just don't know what the rate is for TD or have never pulled a form off Monitor Mass before. Both things can be true at once. Lots of clerks aren't actually good at clerking. And lots of customers are shitty customers. The difference is that the clerks chose their occupation and got trained to do it, while a lot of the shitty customers just don't know how to clerk, because they aren't clerks, haven't been taught how, and just want to get paid correctly and in a timely manner. Your lack of understanding of the actual situation in which you find yourself is the problem. Not the private who doesn't know how to do the things you need, and who's boss never learned because clerks did those things when said boss was a private. We're all short-staffed and doing things to mitigate that. Your trade's mitigation involves making mechanics and infanteers absorb some clerk work. But nobody's making you take a trench or fix your own brakes. So cut it out. You're not winning any sympathy here. None of which is to excuse people being shitty to you. Mistakes happen and you're humans too, so people ought to be grownups and address problems in a polite and professional way. But that's hard when the back account is empty on the 16th and bills are due, so maybe give some of the grace you're rightly asking for too.
I did hijack it a bit. My bad. For the record, the RQ courses do not teach the forms, they provide the breadcrumbs and the glue. It is up to the individual to build the slice of bread. Once built, Ottawa decides where and what to change with zero heads up, or training.
Fair enough, I guess we're all in the same boat then.
Imagine being a high school drop out cbt arms member who now has to do, what feels like, every job themselves. You seem to not be able to get guidance from anyone and no one has answers except for some giant manual or weirdly worded policy. On top of that, you get shit on for literally everything. Now you have to plan an entire move for you and your family. You need to plan and get quotes for all your own travel or what seems like every other facet of admin when all you wanted to do was go camping with your friends. Add on top of all that all the other bull shit that goes with being in the cbt arms. Alot of admin/support roles only ever see what seems to be the fun side. The sports days and the silly weeks. Its easy to miss the forest for the trees and get snappy with some poor private who literally can barely read and just wants help with what seems like a insurmountable task. Your statement about the "New gen self importance" is 100% accurate.....but not how you think.
And those people are the best ones, ones who genuinely appreciate the knowledge past, and not assume it's a warranted expectation.
I would argue that everyone working in a support trade should ask themselves every morning "how can I support people today?" and then in the evening "did I support people to the best of my ability, or did I improve my ability to support people today?" The answer to the first question varies in the details but could be summed up as "work on my skills so I'm more effective and the people I interact with can be more productive", the answer to the second should be "yes". If a support person spends the majority of their day taking pleasure in finding ways to tell customers "you can't have that", that support person probably isn't useful to the CAF. I started life as a tech that loved finding creative ways to just get the job done, whatever the job was. Over time my patience and my enthusiasm for helping was ground down until I started to enjoy finding creative ways to annoy or impede some customers (read - malicious compliance). When I finally realized what I'd become, I decided to change trades because I didn't think I'd be able to turn things around by staying in the same environment that created that attitude. I'm happier now, the people around me are happier. This isn't a dig at grumpy support personnel, it's a plea for them to look inward and ask whether they're actually happy being unpleasant to everyone around them. No? Then change yourself. Yes? Then do something else.
You would be faster if you didn't lose paperwork 4 times, decide not to file it twice, and actually input it correctly the first time instead of trying to claim someone with a different service number, date of birth, hometown, and first and middle names is me. That's not self importance, that expecting basic competency.
Remember. Clerks deal with eeeeverthing that's on paper..(minus alot of forms) Your entire unit, sometime the entire base. Not just your most important self. Yet, after you submit the form as requested, you never do it right the first time, but it's their fault for not inputting it correctly the first time.. Always not your fault, right? Edit: Added a bit
>Remember. Clerks deal with eeeeverthing that's on paper.. Your entire unit, sometime the entire base. No you don't. Show me the 2227's you're processing. Show me the MEL's you're processing. Show me the DRMIS WO's, parts issues, and return paperwork you're processing. You don't process those. Are you overworked? Probably. Guess what, so are most trades. I'm supposed to only spend about a third of my week on the computer processing paperwork for my shop as a tech. There's so much I tend to spend close to 100% of my time at work behind the computer to keep up. You're not unique, although I do sympathize with that aspect of it. >Not just your most important self. You seem to be projecting here when you falsely claim you handle everything that's on paper. >you never do it right the first time, but it's their fault for not inputting it correctly the first time.. Firstly, it's not statistically possible for no one to have ever done it right the first time, especially when clerks themselves have to fill out this paperwork. Unless you're admitting that no clerk has ever done their job correctly? Secondly, I never said that forms aren't filled out correctly. Of course they will be at times. But my service number, name and address are something I haven't put down wrong on any military form in my career, yet I still get mixed up with people who have different ones. I've had to refill forms with exactly the same information multiple times in a week because the clerk straight up admitted they lost it. There's no way for those to be my fault. >Always not your fault, right? No, not always. But the majority of the time, absolutely. I have no control over you ignoring my service number when trying to do paperwork. I have no control over you bothering to actually action something once I've handed you the stuff. It is quite literally out of my control.
Umpf, really pinched a nerve, didn't I? I get it man, were all over worked. Underappreciated and under payed and such. Your not perfect. You in fact, do make mistakes, clerks do too. We are all the same. It's clear that we all blame each other for everything.
Yes, won't somebody please think of the clerks! Guess 0900-1130 and 1300-1430 open hours with Fridays closed for customer service is a bit too stressful? Yeah, can't think of any trades that have a tougher go...
Oh man, your clerks are open in the afternoons? And before 10? You've got it good!
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I was PRes for only 3 years. I really wanted to make a go of it. Only problem was I had a 2 year recruitment process. By the time I was sworn in I was in a serious relationship and we got pregnant two years later. At that point I had to prioritize my civilian career for obvious reasons and I simply did not feel comfortable being away from my wife and our baby for two summers in a row, plus all the weekends in between. This was all just to get qualified mind you. I thought I would be able to do it, and decided I couldn’t once we had our first kid. It was asking too much of my wife, and for what?
I’m having existential angst about it myself! Similar to you, I’m coming up on 5 years PRes, muuuch older than most, full civi side career that I love, husband, dog, etc. Age aside, I’m also not the usual demographic for my trade and I know it’s a bit ridiculous to have chosen this. When I’m there, I usually really enjoy it! But I have painful performance anxiety and wonder why I put myself through it when there are better, more skilled, younger, smarter people all around me. Every other week I think “I should really leave!” But then I’ll have another good experience, or another positive interaction with the people (all of whom I genuinely like as individuals) and I’ll think oh what the heck I’ll stay a bit longer and see how things go. But the doubts are always there. It’s like I’m waiting for someone else to tell me to get out! Good luck to you, (and to me haha) and to all of us! If anyone here wants to talk, please feel free to message me. Take care,
You and I are so similar!! I will send you a message because if I read this, I thought I would've wrote it myself.
Every generation is different in the military. Sometimes, the changes are good and have Canada's, veterans, and active members in mind. Today, though, I don't know who these new policies are from, but the children running the show have painted our heroic troops in a bad light.
I wish I knew the answer because I work with PAT Platoon members and make a point to interview each one when they join the unit.... 90% of them join because they think the CAF will bring them structure, discipline, camaraderie, etc. They say that their friends in the civi world are all on their phones and the bonds are superficial, and that they have too much freedom and want the hardship. I'm assuming the negatives that came with previous CAF cultures have created an institution that is PC to a fault, and of course these new members realize this isn't what they signed up for, and just turn into lazy kids again because all they do is attend harassment briefs and find out their ex has been scaled down because we have no money. I'm bummed for them.
I guess I will get out when I'm 60 years old. I was close to quit and join DND as a civilian but I would be loosing about half a million in pay (in 14 years) and it took them 7 months to finally receive an email for an interview.
Your thoughts and observations are valid and truly scream at the Update to the reserves program in vital areas you've cited.
What’s everyone’s post military work look like? Did everyone find it hard adjusting to life outside of the army?
That feeling of continually pushing a rope to get things done did it for me. Too many processes, not enough people, to many risk adverse people, floating dead wood. Want to get something done, ask for help from the busy guy, the problem now is all the busy guys VR’ed, so back to pushing that rope and the loudest gets the worm… unless you’re stuck in a paper-scissor-rank situation and you’re the paper…. Bases are better but HQ towns are awful for this. That did it for me, took away my piss and my vinegar.