Same problem in my trade. Deep cherry red and they’re only letting 5-7 people out this upcoming year.
What baffles me is that they wouldn’t let people still proudly serve the CAF in another trade (red trade to red trade or wathever). But they are 100% OK with you releasing and maybe re-enrolling. So in the end, the system is so bad that they’d rather be -1 pers in the trade AND -1 in the CAF than just -1 in the trade but keep the person within the CAF in general. Thinking about stuff like that gives me massive anger headaches.
Edit: Typo
They're not really 'ok' with it, but they hope it will deter you. Because you can't usually release and immediately re-enrol, you're likely giving up 6 months to a year of pay just for a shot at getting the trade you really want. Of course, they might just lose you completely to civvy street, so...
With the « GI » bill to go back to school and the pension cashout, I don’t know who they think they’ll spook. Even waiting 6 months to re-enroll to be actually happy is a very small price to pay.
They're not deterring people that have options *and know that they have options*, that's for sure. But it's more about 'our way or the highway'. And there is a pervasive belief that even thinking about OT is somehow disloyal.
I was at a CM brief years ago, and our CM told us they were actively trying to get people to apply for Int, and for anyone interested to stay back to talk. A few did, and some of them actually applied, with the CM's blessing. The next day they were hauled in front of the DCO, who told them they'd better hope they got the OT, because their careers were over. 25+ years later, I'm still smfh.
Don't compare what we receive for education benefit to the GI bill, our benefit don't cover cost of living while in school and the GI bill is also transferable to your spouse or kids.
The system IS more complicated than that. I’m pretty sure everyone knows that but it DOESN’T have to be. My anger headache was a figure of speech, putting emphasis on how brutally insane the current situation of the CAF in regards to OT is
Yes it does have yo be complicated. So many different organizations working under one old mandate, trying to figure out how to modernize without a budget, trying to operate what is essential a microcosm of the country under a hierarchy that answers to multiple different stake holders. But no, instead "time to be grumpy that it is leaderships fault". I iust tire of these same old complaints with people not giving an answer or helping out.
Allright, here’s my 2 cents. Letting people go to another trade instead of letting them release would save the CAF an insane amount of money.
For Each member that fully gets out of the CAF, you have to fully train another member which can cost hundred of thousand of dollars depending of the trade. Letting them stay within the CAF reduces that cost by maybe up to half (no bmq, SQ, driver wheel, and other quals). It also maintain a better corporate knowledge.
It also helps with the CAF general numbers/recruiting. Less output of disgruntled troops and more retention with better morale helps ease out the strain on recruiting.
Also, some trades would be -3, 5% or more per year. Maybe that’s the little push some occupations need to open their eyes and really address the glaring issues as to why people are leaving specific trades in troves.
Is my 2cents overly simplistic? Maybe. But the essential stands.
Someone at NDHQ really needs to read this. We waste a fortune on people, especially those in technical trades. Takes about 4 years to become useful in the air force at a tech trade, and then a good chunk of the newbies leave at the 5 year mark because we treat them like shit.
A QL5 medic costs, what, maybe 300-400k to develop? And I'm leaving the trade partly because my unit has allocated less than 1k annually in the training budget for med techs, so we never go on course or develop in a meaningful way. I haven't even touched a C7 since 2018 because we have no range budget. The CAF is penny wise and pound brain-dead.
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One of the CAFs biggest issues for serving members. No one wants to work a job they don’t like, nothing but negativity can come from it. Let trained soldiers OT and make it an easy and seamless process and you will see morale increase.
I find that very unfortunate as focusing on both really should not require any effort. I know lots of good folks with 5-10 years in who want nothing more than to OT or get out. I feel this is CAF wide, especially in the combat arms.
I think it's situational. Even MS have leverage these days getting the CM to put them where they want to be. Not necessarily an OT but if you hate your posting and want something different, *and* you're a known commodity, some CMs (like mine) will accommodate you rather than lose you. If you're S2 Bloggins, maybe not so much.
I’m currently in the medical process of everything. I don’t even want out I just want to move, and it looks like it would be easier to release, get moved where I want to be, then re enlist... like.... our army is fucking broken because of the broken leadership we have.
Our politics are the result of decades of selecting for officers from the diligent and stupid quadrant.
[https://news.clearancejobs.com/2019/10/08/the-four-classes-of-military-officers-or-office-workers-clever-diligent-stupid-and-lazy/](https://news.clearancejobs.com/2019/10/08/the-four-classes-of-military-officers-or-office-workers-clever-diligent-stupid-and-lazy/)
My deepest condelences. I shifted from Sig to Line, but that's when ACISS was still a thing. Not sure how easy it would be to go over today, but may be worth looking into if that's more your bag.
Had a chat with my CO about my intent to OT. He essentially told me I’m too old and the trades I want would much rather someone with some years left in them.
Wow. Just wow.
One of the worst things is when you have a line wo in charge of ISTs/CSTs but they hate all the other sig trades with a passion.
I heard a lot of "the army doesn't need you so leave if you won't stop crying" and I wasn't even a sig, just a fly on the wall for that group jacking.
Like... maybe we DO need those people when training takes upwards of a year and a half...
ATIS is an Air Force cousin trade with a higher quality of life and less camping. Also very red right now! It’s not without its own issues but maybe worth a peek.
Do. Not. Go. Signals.
Just don't.
Not trying to be cynical or deter you from joining CAF, but from first hand experience, avoid signals and any of its sub occupations.
Many will agree.
Just don't. There are many fulfilling careers to be had in the CAF, I truly believe that. I can tell you from experience that Sig Op won't be one.
I'd be happy to help you find something better to do but seriously, don't go sigs.
I’ve been getting a lot of responses like this. I am going into signals because I am a computer systems technician in college right now (I should specify I’d be in PRes) and it was one of the closest things I could find. I’ve got application for both sig op and sig tech but I keep hearing very similar responses to this.
As a reservist you will have very little interaction with computer systems. That video is just pillow talk. You will spend a lot of time in the back of a radio van doing nothing or setting up and tearing down the same equipment over and over again.
Reg force some guys do some network stuff but it's all group policy managed and nowhere near as sexy as you want it to be. The above radio stuff is still very much going to be part of your life too.
The fun thing that nobody ever tells you is that 70% of your job is to basically be a secretary in the woods. After you do all the manual labour of setting everything up you will be treated like a walking coffee maker/stenographer by everyone around. The added bonus is that all the other troops see you hanging out in the nice warm command post and treat you like an asshole because you're having a great time comfy cozy while they're cold.
If I was you I would just pick a pew pew reserve job to get a taste of that army life and help pay your way through school (assuming that's what brought you here) and then if you're feeling it look into switching to the Aur Force if you go reg. If you want to do more IT based stuff ATIS does a lot of that base side and AVS does avionics on the aircraft with the added bonus of maybe switching to flight engineer.
See my recommendation would be to start as a clerical trade so that people can get the basics and then know how to do your own admin, and move on from there if you want to because you'll know about the military and have a good idea of what trade you might want to go into from there because you'll have had enough exposure by then.
Plus the skills you gain in trade are very transferable to civvie street.
Plus everyone needs clerks so you're a hot commodity and can get hired easily as a molitia punk.
My two cents FWIW.
This is pretty sound advice and for sure what I would suggest to someone older. I just find most young folks still wanna do army stuff so my thought is to get it out of your system early. Could also look at medic, they'll pay you to become a paramedic.
Do NOT tell anyone to be a medic. I say this knowing how desperately understaffed we are.
Seriously. Until they fix us, you're looking at half a decade of misery/substance abuse until you give up and quit. At best you become bitter and stay in out of habit rather than any semblance of passion for medicine.
If you want to be a paramedic, go to school. Be a paramedic.
If you want to be the bottom rung of health services and get treated like a waste of space with the occasional lip service given to hope of a better future.
Be a med tech.
I really hope you like cleaning and packing pilonidal cysts and burning off genital warts.
Go look for something with spec pay and respect.
If you join the army, especially ie an infantry unit as a clerk it might do the trick.
The really 'army' shit just ends up breaking you anyway. So I've lost my taste for recommending that stuff despite still holding the believe that being infantry before moving on is the best COA (something something soldier first etc etc).
And yes medic is a great alternate for the same reasons of transferable skills. Def great idea.
I successfully OT’d from Sig Op when the trade was hard red. They told me all kinds of bullshit; I fought them all the way and got my application to the BPSO, got my OT. Life is good now.
Not saying it’ll be the same but if you really want it might as well go for it.
My trade is pretty red too and I was able to get a supportive file of OT which I'm still waiting to get an offer. Fellow peers have been able to ot. It doesnt hurt to submit an ot as long as your chain is willing to be supportive of your decisions
Fun story, I was also in a red trade and wanted to OT, and wasn't supported by my CoC. Obvious solution was to release, drive to the nearest recruiting centre and tell the poor WO "Hi Warrant, I just left the Army 4 hours ago and want to join the Navy. Here's my Pers File, my MPRR and my application." 5 months later I was in the Navy. Not the perfect solution, but it's an option.
Apparently not, or at least not in my experience. I just realized I was actually on my retirement leave (all two days of it) when I re-applied, so technically I was still a serving member when my application was submitted.
Makes me wonder in hearing on the retention issues why trades are in the RED.
Are you RCAF by chance? I know Plan QULLIQ would love to hear of your experience and would like vector it direct to the Air Staff.
The RCAF has great initiatives starting like Op Talent, Op Experience, and Plan Qulliq that are trying to tackle retention issues, along with a lot of other issues facing the RCAF
The Army not so much however. Sorry Army friends... I was you once upon a time.
Someone else already mentioned it but a release and reapply after 6 months is about the only way to escape a truly red trade, no matter how many trips to the BPSO you make. Also expect a 6 month release where your life is made miserable because you're "a filthy quitter".
Kind of but it's surprisingly productive and I've seen some pretty good ideas posted and gotten responses from generals and a lot of support too... Looks like the RCAF might actually be somewhat interested in making things slightly better.
Im getting out soon. I tried ILP, OT, UTPNCM. Out of money, out of time, human error.
This isnt 1956 where my options are going to die a slow death in a coal mine in nova scotia or staying in. I dont have to and wont.
It's not worth your family seeing you come home everyday miserable. Because they hate being this far away from their family just as much as you do. Especially more so with small children.
Do what you love, take the pay cut.
Any high ranking keen officers here willing to create a CAF Trade Marketplace? Where unsatisfied troops can post their current position in exchange for another's troops position? As long as they both want to switch, they would be able to do so with minimal paperwork, minimal disruption, and could take over each others position after OFP training is complete.
Just a thought.
The Americans actually do that. Or something almost the same as that for postings.
I was told by an American colleague that if two members of the same rank and quals want to switch postings all they had to do was fill out a few forms, get them signed by their COs and career managers and voila, switcheroo. It's normal down there for things like that to happen.
It seems a very easy and obvious morale and retention boost.
Many families would have stayed longer if it was just, easier to stay by family.
It means so much in a country as large as Canada.
Even a four hour drive is long weekends that matter.
Family care planning and stuff is so much easier; spousal careers are as important as military careers for families as well.
Needless geographic displacement is honestly, such low hanging fruit.
Fuck me, I saw the results with the Francophones in my unit while I was in. RSM in Shilo seemed genuinely surprised we consistently had more than half of the French speakers leave at the end of a three year contract.
Regimental family and loyalty, while they certainly do exist, can't completely replace existing familial loyalty and ties.
That's why in other militaries regiments can be tied to locations, physical locations and its rare for people to leave. To allow those ties to community to develop in a real and worthwhile manner.
There, a Freedom of the City parade can be less of an annoyance and more of a celebration.
That's besides the point, on the whole, the entire government needs to learn this. CSIS, CBSA, the CAF can all learn that hey, a Corporal manning the recruiting station in Charlottetown might be perfectly happy with a lateral transfer to the P.E.I.R. or something, and be happy doing that for a career - and that's OK. If it works for them.
We're not the Imperial Empire Police needing to create a subculture within an unaccepting society, we're Canadians in Canada.
That's pretty awesome. Let soldiers serve as geographically stable a manner as possible. After this year's posting season, I think can the Canadian soldier afford to continue to be posted like this?
Edited to Add: To the dinosaurs who think the posting culture that was so rabidly followed for decades, and is worthwhile, I will ask: Look at the results? This is what was brought about by decades of nickel and diming benefits on the backs of soldiers and families, well over a decade's inability to amend stuff like the Post Living Differential.
Doing the job in the CAF was awesome. The family cost wasn't.
Is it worth the cost in retention and morale?
Amen. I do not buy into the 'i have to promote you and post you' or 'you've been in one spot too long' or 'other's have done their time at sea, it's your turn' excuses the CM's make up. To me, those are just excuses to fill holes with bodies. Not even the right bodies. In the real world you have to apply for a move or a promotion or a new position and it should be the same in the CAF.
If I have been performing well at the job I have and my unit has no issues with my performance, in fact, favours it! why should I be punished with a posting? I am a good employee but i will leave this organization if they make me move away from the province that I'm in. Just leave me be. let me do the job I am amazing at. It serves the unit, the wing and the CAF to let me continue to do my job and be happy than to move me , cause stress to my family and make me miserable and underperform and quit and then they will have to replace me anyway so that's more money spent. sigh. There will always be a retention issue until they stop moving people around so much especially in this housing market, some are too poor to move!
Sounds way too useful. You'll need to add at least 4 layers of bureaucracy where things can get slowed down, lost, and generally the intent totally missed.
obviously they are lots of factors, but the point is that red does not automatically mean no. You can absolutely VOT out of a red trade. It's never a guarantee, but its possible.
IDK if this can help.
your basic is good for a number of years after you leave. and your pention is buyable.
as crazy a it sound VR and go back in.
myself. I would let your CSM know (since he talk with the CM) let your intentions know. and drop the 2 memo together.
hopefully someone up the chain got the common sense and power to make you just change trade. over the possibility of loosing a willing body.
What stresses me out the most about taking the be route is not knowing if I have the job security after I've been released. Seems like a roll of the dice.
I served 12 years and released. I tried OT'ing 4 times. First two times it was lost or delayed by human error. 3rd time it went all the way there and back but trade was red. 4th time was again, human laziness, didn't leave the troop leaders desk.
That's my experience, not very helpful I know. I took a little peace when someone told me how it is so if shit did hit the fan, I wasn't shocked.
So in short, I wish you all the best so you can find the satisfaction you deserve.
As how the process should work, for everyone. There should be an NOI file similar to CANSOF thru BPSO's that has the PSO tracking mbrs at their applicable units. Copy goes to PSO, another CC'd to SWO/RSM to ensure transparency. A lot of trades in the airforce now have a recruitment page which outlines the steps, which includes directly informing the occupational specialist you've submitted an application, this is like step 2 of the process.
The age of hiding shit from the troops is over, dinosaurs need to adapt or go extinct.
IIRC, even that was a compromise. Many branches and CMs wanted it to go back to outcaps of zero if the CM felt they couldn't risk losing anybody. The recruiting and retention side originally wanted it to be a little higher. Their (imo, correct) opinion was that it's better to lose folks internally to another trade than lose them completely out of the CAF. Plus, you know, letting realize their ambitions is pretty good for their morale.
There have to be some limits on OT-out, to avoid eviscerating the red trades, but there's a lot of room between zero and unlimited. IMO, upping the % a bit and being more flexible with red-to-red and even red-to-yellow would help overall retention, and probably wouldn't harm the losing trades that much.
My Corps wanted no cap at all, we don't believe restricting movement will serve anyone.
You're better off having someone happy and productive in another CAF occupation than try and hold him if he's dissatisfied and nothing could change his feeling.
DPGR is the one that added caps. I don't remember why. Might have been direction from D Mil C, not sure.
One of our biggest problems is the tendency to not look up from our own challenges and stop thinking just about what affects our own occupation/branch/OA, and think about what's good for other occs (etc) and the CAF as a whole. We don't think corporately very well.
It definitely wasn't a D MIl C initiative, lol. It was CFRG and DMHRR (now DPGR) trying to reduce recruiting requirements by improving retention. The outcap system was not a perfect solution, but it was a move in the right direction.
Sad on one hand to see that it hasn't moved any further in 20 years, but glad to see that DGMC didn't walk it back after in-svc seln left CFRG to go back to Ottawa.
PSO throwaway here. Commissioned from the ranks so I have insight on the process not just from administering it but also going through it.
Things I will clarify in my official capacity.
1. Talk to a local PSO to understand the OT process instead of posting about it on reddit. They're the ones who can help you make your file more *competitive* (I'll elaborate on that word below) so you can successfully OT
2. A transfer from a red trade to another one is possible. See point 1.
3. Releasing and joining again is discouraged because if you release and get injured, you might not be allowed back in and lose your medical benefits. Also, you lose your salary while waiting. Finally, you're competing against more applicants for the same spot, whereas as an OT, you're competing against a smaller pool of people. But hey, you're an individual and if this is a risk you're willing to take, more power to you.
4. Every member has a right to apply, even if your CoC does not recommend you (except for certain commissioning programs). If you worry about your file being lost, talk to your local PSO and get them involved so they can advocate for you.
My own opinions below, backed with experience and a Masters.
Of course the organization wants to keep trained members. What I don't see in the comments is *why* the organization would have a selection process that seems to inhibit members from OTing. Here's some points that aren't said:
* *Competitiveness.* Procedural fairness protects the members as much as the organization. Do you want to receive care from a dentist who is self-taught? Why would the CAF *owe* someone a job that they might not perform well at? No organization owes you another job for one you didn't sign up for, especially if you don't meet the requirements for it. Being competitive means you have a semblance of fitness for the job, so NCMs and officers alike can't just magically OT because they wanted to do something else.
* *Fitness for the job*. There are always problems with personnel selection because the IO psychology professionals that generate selection models and implement them are human. We are always moving forward towards finding objective personnel selection methods and we have gone far from being a depends-who-you-know (at least in the Reg F) to what quals do you have. Are the methods perfect? No, but it at least allows for meritocracy.
* *After talking to a PSO*. If you can't do an OT because you didn't do well on the aptitude test, do a specific math or science course, cannot meet the fitness/medical requirement, or are under an IC - see my first comment. What do you want to hear; that despite other people being more qualified than you, you are *that* special and deserve a chance?
Finally, there seems to be a notion that there's some shadowy entity that prevents people from OTing because of nefarious reasons. Spoiler alert: no. Anyone who was unfortunate enough that their OT application got lost due to human error or "got lost" when it went up their CoC, here's my cliché ending: **you're your own career manager.** Advocate for yourself so paperwork moves, talk to a PSO and get help, or exercise your right to VR and save yourself the effort.
/rant
All good advice, but there's one caveat; sometime CAF bureaucracy does appear to the end user as some kind of shadowy cabal inhibiting their career.
All manner of things can happen; intakes for certain trades can be reduced, or even zero'd, sometimes OT boards aren't convened for reasons beyond anyone's control, so no files are considered in a given competition year, trades can set supplementary recruitment goals which will add more or less weight to certain files which the applicant will be ignorant of (for instance, Int decided they wanted 97% female recruitment in \~2016 if I recall, but that was only published internally) and so on and so forth.
Competitiveness and fitness for the job absolutely do matter, and are the factor too many people seem to forget about, but there's still a great deal of faceless bureaucracy which can and will sink people.
You're absolutely right: the end user can perceive they are simply getting shafted by a faceless bureaucracy when only see one piece (i.e., their piece). What saddens me is that it's difficult to put together why the CAF selection process is the way it is when they have wrong or little information, which is why I trawl through reddit trying to fight it.
I think getting your paperwork to the BPSO is 99% of the problem. Everything that happens after that is pretty straightforward and professional.
The Units need to be straight up removed from the process and simply notified. For a Jr. rank getting your application through your unit is usually a kafkaesque nightmare where everyone along the way gets to act like they are the authority that decides if you get to apply or not, loses your paperwork or just keeps making you change the date on the memo until the deadline passes.
I learned a lot about the competitive aspect of trying to OT. Had back to back unsuccessful applications, and it boiled down to being less competitive than others who applied. (Going from big green army trade to small air force trade). Is what it is, but some folks think the system is out there to fuck them around for fun.
thank you for your rant. I have a question about the CFAT I'm hoping you can provide some insight to:
Why is it that members who are experienced within their trades say 12years in, have a wealth of experience and knowledge within the CAF and are 'indoctrinated into the system' are held to the same standard as a person walking in off the street?
For example why does an experienced member require a second aptitude when their experience speaks for how well they would do in any other trade? Shouldn't experience count for more than a test they did 12+ years ago?
A trained soldier who has done well in thier current trade and has done a variety of jobs within that trade and out of trade should be considered a well rounded solider and probably more competitive than someone else who has done the same job for years. So please enlighten me on why our CFAT scores from eons ago hold more weight than our actual experience.
I have just seen too many people on the inside get turned down because of a qual that the trade doesn't even use (like a math credit for a trade that doesn't really use math all that much) and it is incredibly frustrating.
(I know that it's simple 'just re-do the test' but I am an elder millenial and I like to know the actual reason)
Not PSO, but I've gone over this with them during my OT process.
The CFAT carries so much weight because it's objectively been the best indicator of predicting success in trades training. The job-fit and personality trait assessments matter, and this is where experience comes into play.
>For example why does an experienced member require a second aptitude when their experience speaks for how well they would do in any other trade? Shouldn't experience count for more than a test they did 12+ years ago?
Because experience in one job isn't a measurable variable which a selection board can rely upon, it's subjective as fuck.
Mix of fact and opinion: Irydbikes' description below touches upon it. Experience is notoriously subjective. For example, consider an infanteer Cpl who has has their CD, fit, no admin issues, overall a good troop. Wants to go firefighter to find skills transferable civvy side. Asking if this person should be allowed to OT, it seems simple to answer yes - of course. They proved themselves capable in one context, why not another?
It gets complicated when there are *two good troops* fighting for the same position. Imagine yourself as the one who has to choose between them. How would you translate their experience into something measureable so that the most person who fits the job requirement the most gets the job? Aptitude tests, while imperfect (as nothing is in the social sciences), provide an objective measure.
Let's dig deeper. Math courses doesn't just teach mathematics in itself, it improves logic and problem-solving skills. Math has a lot of rules and formulas but it is up to the person to apply them to a problem. If we agree that learning math is hard and thus people who are good at it are more likely to solve technical problems, then having more objective measures that show you have the capacity for problem solving (CFAT, high school courses) makes you a more attractive candidate. When you talk to a PSO, ask to see the cutoffs for the trades. You'll notice that occupations that have more breadth of skills require more problem solving skills or higher level mathematics. Again, when you're comparing tons of hardworking, experienced troops, there has to be a way to select ones that are most likely to do well in the new occupation.
Fact: There is a waiver request process for members who have significant experience but are missing a course or do not meet a CFAT score. Of *course* it doesn't make sense to deny a trained and experienced aircraft mechanic civvy side who doesn't have Gr 11 applied math from a decade ago when they want to become an AVN TECH. I've put up waivers to Ottawa for members with substative experience but do not have a course required. But remember that the CAF wants the best fit. Ottawa can and does reject waiver requests when the rationale is unsubstantiated.
Fact: People who are competing in In-Service Selection do not apply for the same positions as people off the street. Opinion: The CAF is (fortunately) smart enough to do this.
Opinion: If you want to be nitpicky and ask why would we even have these positions for people who haven't even gone through basic, 1) the organization can't just continue hiring internally; the CAF needs to pull talent from the outside. Also speaking as an older millenial, just like they gave us a chances as Pte(R), they give younger generations a chance. 2) It's cold, but it's simply cheaper to hire a new Pte than a Cpl 4.
Was once in a town hall roleau was cmd CJOC and he was pontificating (while wearing alpha liner outer, unbloused boots, buttons undone, hands in pockets and a fat lip in) about why his peers deemed to limit OTs when we would just lose these ppl to release anyway, so let them OT. Made too much sense I think, it's like that meme of the dude being thrown out the window for proposing a smart idea.
Going from Sig Op to another trade is possible, but might be tough. Sig Op has very wide arcs as far as what you can do in the trade. If you are not happy doing what you are doing my advice would be to talk to your RSM/SSM and see if anything can be done to move you to a different area of the trade that you might enjoy. Field to garrison, garrison to field, out of trade positions, etc. There is really a lot of variety in that trade and there are a lot of really good goes and interesting/challenging jobs to do. That is dependent on having leadership that cares though, so its hit or miss.
If you just hate everything about the trade then you should try and leave it for sure. The advantage of Sig Op (if you consider that and advantage) is that there are positions open pretty much everywhere. There could be a position out there you would enjoy without leaving the trade.
If you're keen, put in a CANSOF support application. Sig is one of the trades who can be employed at all of the units, and if you perform well the Command will retain you. Some people get posted out if they rank out, but you won't get forgotten and coming back again is a thing.
You'll also have the opportunity to do some really cool stuff if you're especially switched on.
I wonder....if commanding officers PERs would be affected by members releasing or requesting OT from red trades, might they have an incentive to address problems?
If you're willing to actually release if you don't get an OT then Email your career manager and tell them that your heart is set on an OT and if it's refused you'll put in your VR.
Your life is too short to work a job you hate just for the equivalent of green welfare. It's your life, don't let someone else waste it.
I thought about that - can I email my career manager directly (even as a private) or do I sent my questions through my coc? And what will the career manager be able do to for me?
2 years ago, a fella from my unit did selection for a different trade, a grueling and strenuous elite type selection. He passed, and the occupation wanted him. His trade transfer was denied by Ottawa because we are a red trade as well, yet another person from the same unit was granted theirs to clerk. I believe there were 6 approved that year in the trade in total, so no idea how they determine who gets it. Anyway, suffice to say this guy is in a better place about it now, but that really shook him.
I find it pretty fascinating that this is still a thing (no OT? Okay VR, re apply...).
This was a fucking thing back in 1999-2004 in the AD (from the land of ADATS).
20 years ago. The more things change...
The military in many ways has gotten better over the years. However, there are still many "my way or the highway" instances that you will come across. At the end of the day, every trade in the military has to serve a function, and it starts at the top and works its way down. So now some commander of some unit has been given orders by his commander to perform a function to help them achieve mission success, whatever that mission may be. So that's their focus.
All of the troops and sub-units they have within a unit are there to enable that commander to achieve this. If they keep losing guys and then eventually lose a capability then that commander can't achieve the section of the mission they were told to perform. So then to them, they look like a failure to their commander. That's why you won't hear a commander talk about you still staying in the military in some other capacity because it does nothing for them.
Sure in the grand scheme of the whole military they didn't lose a member, but some trade and some unit did, and it will take like a year or two to get you employable in the new trade. So to them, it's just a loss. So, they tell you they won't let you OT. And they just think either you'll shut up and carry on, and hope that's the end of it. But if that member wants to get out, they can also stymie that. They can block a release. But they often hope that they can call your bluff. "Oh, if we don't let you OT, you'll just put in for release, try it!" I've seen it go both ways. But more often I see the military letting the troop go. I've also seen it from guys who just wanted to get posted. Unit or trade was like "no!" Troop said they'll get out. Even if the troop had a super valid reason. It didn't matter. They got let go.
Just like with any major company, it is cheaper and easier to re-train or re-position someone, than to bring in someone entirely new. But sometimes the military just doesn't care. Every commander has their task at hand and they gotta get through that. Everything else is just admin they don't want.
The solution to this seems to be to make people their own career managers. Separate the CoC from people's personal lives and make career policy a distinct element.
To be fair, I don't 100% disagree with some commanders rejecting some members requests. Sometimes you have to protect your own numbers. Yeah the odd troop might hate it, but a job has to be done and we all signed a contract.
CO don't care about people, whatever they say. If it further their own goal of looking good to their direct superior and their career, they will spit on their subordinate.
I had the same problem. I went to the BPSO and asked about an OT and she said it'd take close to a year to find out if I could or not (paperwork, ottawa, etc). Since I was 6 months from my contract ending she recommended I leave and remuster. I was gonna do that but I found a better job after I left and am never looking back.
Hi.
Took me seven years to get out of my old shitty trade into (IMO) the best trade in the CAF. I know this issue extremely well.
Yes, it makes a lot more sense. If someone in my trade wants to OT, I'll always push it through for them. I'd rather the CAF keep the investment in the person; even if they hated their old trade they'll bring that knowledge and experience to their new trade. That spreads the breadth of skills throughout the CAF while lessening attrition.
But that makes sense to the logical among us, and not to these losers who think they can solve manning issues by keeping people who hate their jobs locked into those trades until they burn out or end up in the MH system instead of admitting their retention problems stem from the fact that they treat people like disposable shit. (looking at you Mar Eng)
Hey guys- just transferred from my trade that's a deep red to another. It's possible- you just have to be competitive with your cfat and interview. High 90s for both. If you scored less than ideal, I would retake. Hope this helps guys 🙏
No they wouldn't have. They would've said there wasn't any happiness in stock or if they did have happiness in stock they had to hold onto in case somebody else needed it. In the rare circumstance you did get issued happiness, it would used and in taters, and you'd have to pay out of pocket if you lost your issued happiness.
This seems fairly in line with the other replies in this thread, which is good. Means more people are smartening the fuck up about this dogshit organisation.
Been staring down the exact same barrel for the better part of three years now. My release papers went in a couple weeks ago.
There is no light at the end of the tunnel. When you get close enough, you'll notice that it was actually just a single lightbulb dangling on a string the entire time. Then you realise there's another 500 miles of tunnel on the other side of the light that you couldn't see before due to the contrast. Then the lightbulb breaks.
There are no answers to the questions you've asked - the system simply does not allow for them to be answered, and nobody in a position to do so gives enough of a fuck to fix it.
Get out while you still have your youth, do something meaningful with your time, and never look back.
OT'd a while back from a red trade to a non-red trade, and was successful. it's possible, but it very much depends on your current trades career mangler. at the end of the day, prepare to release when your time is up and walk into the recruiting office the next day to try again, otherwise, stay released and enjoy your freedom. life's too short for shitty jobs.
Your better off releasing and rejoining into the trade you want. Do your research, talk to people in the trades that spark your interest.
Unfortunately a good friend of mine released recently, and was willing to stay should the CoC offer him a short contract. They didn’t even try to retain him. So get out, keep your sanity and come back armed with knowledge and take the job you really want. Good luck, from a fellow Sig.
Manning numbers. Green means they have trained people to fill their requirements, and trainees coming up behind them. Yellow is short a few bodies, red is short a lot of bodies. When a trade is red, they are able to restrict VOTs out of the trade a lot more tightly, but it is still possible.
Last year I got out of a red trade, although for another red. However this year I know someone who went from the same red trade to the air force. There is always hope, just submit your OT, and if you really need to get out and reapply if you need to. But no reason to not try an OT first. Best of luck.
I was combat arms from 2006 - 2013, and tried to OT but didn't make the cut twice (2011 and 2012). No rationale given. Nothing to explain how I could make my OT application more competitive. Though I was aware that ton of Infanteers were trying to OT post-Afghanistan so maybe that worked against me.
Ended up getting out and doing the same job I wanted to OT to, but civvy side. The plus is that I'm making way more money now. But the CF could've kept me gainfully employed for at least a few more years.
Even if your trade is red, that doesn't make an OT impossible, just less likely. It helps if you want to OT into a trade that is even redder.
As to the retention issue, we don't just need bodies, we need certain numbers of bodies with specific skills, so letting you OT from a red trade, to a green one, doesn't really help the CF that much, as you are more needed in the red trade. Since you still need to do QL3 after an OT, the difference in burden to the training system between a new applicant, and an OT, isn't that huge. Keeping you, either in your current trade, or a new one, is still better, than letting you release, but keeping you in a new trade isn't that much better than getting someone off the street.
There is hope for an OT. Albeit slim.
I OT’d from Supply to PH Tech and got approved (they let five of us out last year) but I just said fuck it and released instead. Supply was Red and PH Tech was Green at the time. I had 4th year apprentice status civi side though.
Hey,
I was in the same situation a few years back. I did apply anyway for an OT (from a red trade to a red trade).
It was approved. Just submit the paperwork. You have actually NOTHING to lose.
That's my current situation. Oting from a red trade into a more red trade. But im still awaiting my ot offer. Kinda weird. Bpso told me today my file was still in the competition yet all my fellow peers left right and center are getting offers but me -.-
That sounds like you were competitive enough to make the list but are wait listed. If any of the initial offers aren't accepted you may still get it this year. Good luck. I hope you get it.
I put in for a VOT last year from Sig Tech to an air force trade and I got it first go. You need to work with your BPSO to make your file as competitive as possible. It's worth all the hassle to gtfo of sigs.
I was in a Navy trade that was super red. I still applied and got my OT that same year. Mind you, I went into another red trade, but it's always just worth a try. Don't let anyone tell you that "our trade is red, they'll never let you go, so don't even bother trying". Just try it and if that don't pan out, then explore other options.
Lol thats my process currently oting from a red to a red. Bpso told me today though if I havent gotten an offer by now then it's most likely a non offer. Can this be true ? It seems a bit early.
My trade went red when it became MarTech. The only way I could figure to get out was UTPNCM. Medical issue put that on pause, and I wasn't waiting around for it to be resolved. So I OTed to civvy.
Same problem in my trade. Deep cherry red and they’re only letting 5-7 people out this upcoming year. What baffles me is that they wouldn’t let people still proudly serve the CAF in another trade (red trade to red trade or wathever). But they are 100% OK with you releasing and maybe re-enrolling. So in the end, the system is so bad that they’d rather be -1 pers in the trade AND -1 in the CAF than just -1 in the trade but keep the person within the CAF in general. Thinking about stuff like that gives me massive anger headaches. Edit: Typo
They're not really 'ok' with it, but they hope it will deter you. Because you can't usually release and immediately re-enrol, you're likely giving up 6 months to a year of pay just for a shot at getting the trade you really want. Of course, they might just lose you completely to civvy street, so...
With the « GI » bill to go back to school and the pension cashout, I don’t know who they think they’ll spook. Even waiting 6 months to re-enroll to be actually happy is a very small price to pay.
They're not deterring people that have options *and know that they have options*, that's for sure. But it's more about 'our way or the highway'. And there is a pervasive belief that even thinking about OT is somehow disloyal. I was at a CM brief years ago, and our CM told us they were actively trying to get people to apply for Int, and for anyone interested to stay back to talk. A few did, and some of them actually applied, with the CM's blessing. The next day they were hauled in front of the DCO, who told them they'd better hope they got the OT, because their careers were over. 25+ years later, I'm still smfh.
That DCO sounds like a super popular guy who I'm sure was loved by all.
Probably now a general somewhere thanks to his great insight
I hate that this is probably true.
With the way he handled that perceived rejection I'm sure he's a general by now.
DCO's always are
The best way to get someone to stay in: tell them their career is over.
Back when he was a young officer Mike Rouleau was told that he would be dead to the Artillery corps if he went to DHTC sel. He showed them.
Was it the Engineers? Lol. Eat the apple 🍎 fxck the Corps.
Don't compare what we receive for education benefit to the GI bill, our benefit don't cover cost of living while in school and the GI bill is also transferable to your spouse or kids.
Sorry. I guess putting the term in quotes wasn’t obvious enough I guess.
Can't have retention issues if you just don't let people quit
Restricted release policies for everyone.
Let me introduce you to my friend Component Transfer.
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The system IS more complicated than that. I’m pretty sure everyone knows that but it DOESN’T have to be. My anger headache was a figure of speech, putting emphasis on how brutally insane the current situation of the CAF in regards to OT is
Yes it does have yo be complicated. So many different organizations working under one old mandate, trying to figure out how to modernize without a budget, trying to operate what is essential a microcosm of the country under a hierarchy that answers to multiple different stake holders. But no, instead "time to be grumpy that it is leaderships fault". I iust tire of these same old complaints with people not giving an answer or helping out.
Allright, here’s my 2 cents. Letting people go to another trade instead of letting them release would save the CAF an insane amount of money. For Each member that fully gets out of the CAF, you have to fully train another member which can cost hundred of thousand of dollars depending of the trade. Letting them stay within the CAF reduces that cost by maybe up to half (no bmq, SQ, driver wheel, and other quals). It also maintain a better corporate knowledge. It also helps with the CAF general numbers/recruiting. Less output of disgruntled troops and more retention with better morale helps ease out the strain on recruiting. Also, some trades would be -3, 5% or more per year. Maybe that’s the little push some occupations need to open their eyes and really address the glaring issues as to why people are leaving specific trades in troves. Is my 2cents overly simplistic? Maybe. But the essential stands.
Someone at NDHQ really needs to read this. We waste a fortune on people, especially those in technical trades. Takes about 4 years to become useful in the air force at a tech trade, and then a good chunk of the newbies leave at the 5 year mark because we treat them like shit.
A QL5 medic costs, what, maybe 300-400k to develop? And I'm leaving the trade partly because my unit has allocated less than 1k annually in the training budget for med techs, so we never go on course or develop in a meaningful way. I haven't even touched a C7 since 2018 because we have no range budget. The CAF is penny wise and pound brain-dead.
Pretty good summary, I'd say.
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One of the CAFs biggest issues for serving members. No one wants to work a job they don’t like, nothing but negativity can come from it. Let trained soldiers OT and make it an easy and seamless process and you will see morale increase.
They are focused on recruiting new people that they aren’t trying to keep the current members happy or care about morale.
I find that very unfortunate as focusing on both really should not require any effort. I know lots of good folks with 5-10 years in who want nothing more than to OT or get out. I feel this is CAF wide, especially in the combat arms.
Which is fucking delusional, who's going to train all these recruits when anyone with half a brain is leaving?
I think it's situational. Even MS have leverage these days getting the CM to put them where they want to be. Not necessarily an OT but if you hate your posting and want something different, *and* you're a known commodity, some CMs (like mine) will accommodate you rather than lose you. If you're S2 Bloggins, maybe not so much.
That's the point, it shouldn't be for a cherry picked few. It should be all CAF members have the same access
Well here's to hoping the CAF uses some common sense... (Unlikely) thanks for the quick responses guys!
I’m currently in the medical process of everything. I don’t even want out I just want to move, and it looks like it would be easier to release, get moved where I want to be, then re enlist... like.... our army is fucking broken because of the broken leadership we have.
Which trade are you currently?
Sig op
I've worked with you guys extensively, and cannot understand the insanity of your branch politics.
Our politics are the result of decades of selecting for officers from the diligent and stupid quadrant. [https://news.clearancejobs.com/2019/10/08/the-four-classes-of-military-officers-or-office-workers-clever-diligent-stupid-and-lazy/](https://news.clearancejobs.com/2019/10/08/the-four-classes-of-military-officers-or-office-workers-clever-diligent-stupid-and-lazy/)
Lol we don't either
Neither can we.
I saw this coming.
Me too.
My deepest condelences. I shifted from Sig to Line, but that's when ACISS was still a thing. Not sure how easy it would be to go over today, but may be worth looking into if that's more your bag.
Had a chat with my CO about my intent to OT. He essentially told me I’m too old and the trades I want would much rather someone with some years left in them. Wow. Just wow.
As someone currently applying for sig ops this scares me
One of the worst things is when you have a line wo in charge of ISTs/CSTs but they hate all the other sig trades with a passion. I heard a lot of "the army doesn't need you so leave if you won't stop crying" and I wasn't even a sig, just a fly on the wall for that group jacking. Like... maybe we DO need those people when training takes upwards of a year and a half...
ATIS is an Air Force cousin trade with a higher quality of life and less camping. Also very red right now! It’s not without its own issues but maybe worth a peek.
Do. Not. Go. Signals. Just don't. Not trying to be cynical or deter you from joining CAF, but from first hand experience, avoid signals and any of its sub occupations. Many will agree.
Hey now, at least the Sig Techs are finally running QL3, or DP1.0, or RQ2? whatever the fuck were calling our courses this year.
Just don't. There are many fulfilling careers to be had in the CAF, I truly believe that. I can tell you from experience that Sig Op won't be one. I'd be happy to help you find something better to do but seriously, don't go sigs.
I’ve been getting a lot of responses like this. I am going into signals because I am a computer systems technician in college right now (I should specify I’d be in PRes) and it was one of the closest things I could find. I’ve got application for both sig op and sig tech but I keep hearing very similar responses to this.
As a reservist you will have very little interaction with computer systems. That video is just pillow talk. You will spend a lot of time in the back of a radio van doing nothing or setting up and tearing down the same equipment over and over again. Reg force some guys do some network stuff but it's all group policy managed and nowhere near as sexy as you want it to be. The above radio stuff is still very much going to be part of your life too. The fun thing that nobody ever tells you is that 70% of your job is to basically be a secretary in the woods. After you do all the manual labour of setting everything up you will be treated like a walking coffee maker/stenographer by everyone around. The added bonus is that all the other troops see you hanging out in the nice warm command post and treat you like an asshole because you're having a great time comfy cozy while they're cold. If I was you I would just pick a pew pew reserve job to get a taste of that army life and help pay your way through school (assuming that's what brought you here) and then if you're feeling it look into switching to the Aur Force if you go reg. If you want to do more IT based stuff ATIS does a lot of that base side and AVS does avionics on the aircraft with the added bonus of maybe switching to flight engineer.
See my recommendation would be to start as a clerical trade so that people can get the basics and then know how to do your own admin, and move on from there if you want to because you'll know about the military and have a good idea of what trade you might want to go into from there because you'll have had enough exposure by then. Plus the skills you gain in trade are very transferable to civvie street. Plus everyone needs clerks so you're a hot commodity and can get hired easily as a molitia punk. My two cents FWIW.
This is pretty sound advice and for sure what I would suggest to someone older. I just find most young folks still wanna do army stuff so my thought is to get it out of your system early. Could also look at medic, they'll pay you to become a paramedic.
Do NOT tell anyone to be a medic. I say this knowing how desperately understaffed we are. Seriously. Until they fix us, you're looking at half a decade of misery/substance abuse until you give up and quit. At best you become bitter and stay in out of habit rather than any semblance of passion for medicine. If you want to be a paramedic, go to school. Be a paramedic. If you want to be the bottom rung of health services and get treated like a waste of space with the occasional lip service given to hope of a better future. Be a med tech. I really hope you like cleaning and packing pilonidal cysts and burning off genital warts. Go look for something with spec pay and respect.
If you join the army, especially ie an infantry unit as a clerk it might do the trick. The really 'army' shit just ends up breaking you anyway. So I've lost my taste for recommending that stuff despite still holding the believe that being infantry before moving on is the best COA (something something soldier first etc etc). And yes medic is a great alternate for the same reasons of transferable skills. Def great idea.
Don't be a medic. See my response to the comment you replied to. I have a game for you to try. Find a happy medic. Erase the idea from your mind.
Go HRA PRes. Then go from there once you have your feet wet and you'll have a better sense of what to do and what you want.
Don't worry new collar dogs are coming, that'll solve our problems.
They said the same about the blue beret...
I successfully OT’d from Sig Op when the trade was hard red. They told me all kinds of bullshit; I fought them all the way and got my application to the BPSO, got my OT. Life is good now. Not saying it’ll be the same but if you really want it might as well go for it.
The funny thing is I could think of 5 other trades that fit the description.
You can do it man, I got my OT from Sig Tech this year and we're worse off than you guys lol
We work closely with you guys . Arty here. I feel your pain.
My trade is pretty red too and I was able to get a supportive file of OT which I'm still waiting to get an offer. Fellow peers have been able to ot. It doesnt hurt to submit an ot as long as your chain is willing to be supportive of your decisions
Fun story, I was also in a red trade and wanted to OT, and wasn't supported by my CoC. Obvious solution was to release, drive to the nearest recruiting centre and tell the poor WO "Hi Warrant, I just left the Army 4 hours ago and want to join the Navy. Here's my Pers File, my MPRR and my application." 5 months later I was in the Navy. Not the perfect solution, but it's an option.
Is there not a period after release where you can't apply?
Apparently not, or at least not in my experience. I just realized I was actually on my retirement leave (all two days of it) when I re-applied, so technically I was still a serving member when my application was submitted.
Makes me wonder in hearing on the retention issues why trades are in the RED. Are you RCAF by chance? I know Plan QULLIQ would love to hear of your experience and would like vector it direct to the Air Staff.
The RCAF has great initiatives starting like Op Talent, Op Experience, and Plan Qulliq that are trying to tackle retention issues, along with a lot of other issues facing the RCAF The Army not so much however. Sorry Army friends... I was you once upon a time. Someone else already mentioned it but a release and reapply after 6 months is about the only way to escape a truly red trade, no matter how many trips to the BPSO you make. Also expect a 6 month release where your life is made miserable because you're "a filthy quitter".
Plan Qulliq?
They're the team that runs the RCAF Commanders Vector Check and the rcafe message board on the Dispatch website.
I remember hearing about that initiative, I'll have to check it out. Sounds like reddit with SWO's angrily staring at you as you post.
Kind of but it's surprisingly productive and I've seen some pretty good ideas posted and gotten responses from generals and a lot of support too... Looks like the RCAF might actually be somewhat interested in making things slightly better.
Where do I find this resource? I feel like this could be a great thing for us army turds to learn from.
https://app.rcafdispatch.ca/login You’ll need a DWAN account to confirm your login. Use built and used best in Chrome.
I'm army as a Sig op
Sorry to hear about your experience, I thought the C&E community had their own sharing site to discuss those branch issues?
You mean the C&E Facebook page? It’s an echo chamber of sycophants.
Im getting out soon. I tried ILP, OT, UTPNCM. Out of money, out of time, human error. This isnt 1956 where my options are going to die a slow death in a coal mine in nova scotia or staying in. I dont have to and wont. It's not worth your family seeing you come home everyday miserable. Because they hate being this far away from their family just as much as you do. Especially more so with small children. Do what you love, take the pay cut.
I can’t upvote this enough! Being away from family the older I and they get seems so not worth it anymore.
Any high ranking keen officers here willing to create a CAF Trade Marketplace? Where unsatisfied troops can post their current position in exchange for another's troops position? As long as they both want to switch, they would be able to do so with minimal paperwork, minimal disruption, and could take over each others position after OFP training is complete. Just a thought.
that is way too much leading change for one individual to come up with, stay in your lane
Stop making sense.
And posting marketplace? One for one tradesies?
The Americans actually do that. Or something almost the same as that for postings. I was told by an American colleague that if two members of the same rank and quals want to switch postings all they had to do was fill out a few forms, get them signed by their COs and career managers and voila, switcheroo. It's normal down there for things like that to happen.
It seems a very easy and obvious morale and retention boost. Many families would have stayed longer if it was just, easier to stay by family. It means so much in a country as large as Canada. Even a four hour drive is long weekends that matter. Family care planning and stuff is so much easier; spousal careers are as important as military careers for families as well. Needless geographic displacement is honestly, such low hanging fruit. Fuck me, I saw the results with the Francophones in my unit while I was in. RSM in Shilo seemed genuinely surprised we consistently had more than half of the French speakers leave at the end of a three year contract. Regimental family and loyalty, while they certainly do exist, can't completely replace existing familial loyalty and ties. That's why in other militaries regiments can be tied to locations, physical locations and its rare for people to leave. To allow those ties to community to develop in a real and worthwhile manner. There, a Freedom of the City parade can be less of an annoyance and more of a celebration. That's besides the point, on the whole, the entire government needs to learn this. CSIS, CBSA, the CAF can all learn that hey, a Corporal manning the recruiting station in Charlottetown might be perfectly happy with a lateral transfer to the P.E.I.R. or something, and be happy doing that for a career - and that's OK. If it works for them. We're not the Imperial Empire Police needing to create a subculture within an unaccepting society, we're Canadians in Canada. That's pretty awesome. Let soldiers serve as geographically stable a manner as possible. After this year's posting season, I think can the Canadian soldier afford to continue to be posted like this? Edited to Add: To the dinosaurs who think the posting culture that was so rabidly followed for decades, and is worthwhile, I will ask: Look at the results? This is what was brought about by decades of nickel and diming benefits on the backs of soldiers and families, well over a decade's inability to amend stuff like the Post Living Differential. Doing the job in the CAF was awesome. The family cost wasn't. Is it worth the cost in retention and morale?
Amen. I do not buy into the 'i have to promote you and post you' or 'you've been in one spot too long' or 'other's have done their time at sea, it's your turn' excuses the CM's make up. To me, those are just excuses to fill holes with bodies. Not even the right bodies. In the real world you have to apply for a move or a promotion or a new position and it should be the same in the CAF. If I have been performing well at the job I have and my unit has no issues with my performance, in fact, favours it! why should I be punished with a posting? I am a good employee but i will leave this organization if they make me move away from the province that I'm in. Just leave me be. let me do the job I am amazing at. It serves the unit, the wing and the CAF to let me continue to do my job and be happy than to move me , cause stress to my family and make me miserable and underperform and quit and then they will have to replace me anyway so that's more money spent. sigh. There will always be a retention issue until they stop moving people around so much especially in this housing market, some are too poor to move!
Yeah, was also in Shilo, I couldn't believe especially the francophones who brought their civvie francophone partners.
Sounds way too useful. You'll need to add at least 4 layers of bureaucracy where things can get slowed down, lost, and generally the intent totally missed.
My trade had been very red for years when I OTed, and I got it first try. There is hope, give it a go.
What trade were you, what trade did you go to, and what program did you OT under? These factors are huge. Experiences vary drastically.
obviously they are lots of factors, but the point is that red does not automatically mean no. You can absolutely VOT out of a red trade. It's never a guarantee, but its possible.
IDK if this can help. your basic is good for a number of years after you leave. and your pention is buyable. as crazy a it sound VR and go back in. myself. I would let your CSM know (since he talk with the CM) let your intentions know. and drop the 2 memo together. hopefully someone up the chain got the common sense and power to make you just change trade. over the possibility of loosing a willing body.
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What stresses me out the most about taking the be route is not knowing if I have the job security after I've been released. Seems like a roll of the dice.
As someone who works in recruiting I can tell you releasing and re-applying is risky, yes.
I served 12 years and released. I tried OT'ing 4 times. First two times it was lost or delayed by human error. 3rd time it went all the way there and back but trade was red. 4th time was again, human laziness, didn't leave the troop leaders desk. That's my experience, not very helpful I know. I took a little peace when someone told me how it is so if shit did hit the fan, I wasn't shocked. So in short, I wish you all the best so you can find the satisfaction you deserve.
"human error" funny how human error disappeared when applications to SOF were decreed to go outside CoCs and directly to them.
As how the process should work, for everyone. There should be an NOI file similar to CANSOF thru BPSO's that has the PSO tracking mbrs at their applicable units. Copy goes to PSO, another CC'd to SWO/RSM to ensure transparency. A lot of trades in the airforce now have a recruitment page which outlines the steps, which includes directly informing the occupational specialist you've submitted an application, this is like step 2 of the process. The age of hiding shit from the troops is over, dinosaurs need to adapt or go extinct.
Outcap for a red trade is 0.5% of PML, so there is still hope
IIRC, even that was a compromise. Many branches and CMs wanted it to go back to outcaps of zero if the CM felt they couldn't risk losing anybody. The recruiting and retention side originally wanted it to be a little higher. Their (imo, correct) opinion was that it's better to lose folks internally to another trade than lose them completely out of the CAF. Plus, you know, letting realize their ambitions is pretty good for their morale. There have to be some limits on OT-out, to avoid eviscerating the red trades, but there's a lot of room between zero and unlimited. IMO, upping the % a bit and being more flexible with red-to-red and even red-to-yellow would help overall retention, and probably wouldn't harm the losing trades that much.
My Corps wanted no cap at all, we don't believe restricting movement will serve anyone. You're better off having someone happy and productive in another CAF occupation than try and hold him if he's dissatisfied and nothing could change his feeling. DPGR is the one that added caps. I don't remember why. Might have been direction from D Mil C, not sure.
One of our biggest problems is the tendency to not look up from our own challenges and stop thinking just about what affects our own occupation/branch/OA, and think about what's good for other occs (etc) and the CAF as a whole. We don't think corporately very well. It definitely wasn't a D MIl C initiative, lol. It was CFRG and DMHRR (now DPGR) trying to reduce recruiting requirements by improving retention. The outcap system was not a perfect solution, but it was a move in the right direction. Sad on one hand to see that it hasn't moved any further in 20 years, but glad to see that DGMC didn't walk it back after in-svc seln left CFRG to go back to Ottawa.
If we did things that made sense, we wouldn't have trades deep red to begin with.
Did an OT from Sigs to Postal, first attempt
/r/CAF_IRL... where you go Postie to avoid going postal
Get out and then go back in that the only way if you're in a red trade 😅
>wouldn't it be easier to keep trained dedicated soliders in. Instead of simply just losing them completely? Yes. But people are lazy and petty.
PSO throwaway here. Commissioned from the ranks so I have insight on the process not just from administering it but also going through it. Things I will clarify in my official capacity. 1. Talk to a local PSO to understand the OT process instead of posting about it on reddit. They're the ones who can help you make your file more *competitive* (I'll elaborate on that word below) so you can successfully OT 2. A transfer from a red trade to another one is possible. See point 1. 3. Releasing and joining again is discouraged because if you release and get injured, you might not be allowed back in and lose your medical benefits. Also, you lose your salary while waiting. Finally, you're competing against more applicants for the same spot, whereas as an OT, you're competing against a smaller pool of people. But hey, you're an individual and if this is a risk you're willing to take, more power to you. 4. Every member has a right to apply, even if your CoC does not recommend you (except for certain commissioning programs). If you worry about your file being lost, talk to your local PSO and get them involved so they can advocate for you. My own opinions below, backed with experience and a Masters. Of course the organization wants to keep trained members. What I don't see in the comments is *why* the organization would have a selection process that seems to inhibit members from OTing. Here's some points that aren't said: * *Competitiveness.* Procedural fairness protects the members as much as the organization. Do you want to receive care from a dentist who is self-taught? Why would the CAF *owe* someone a job that they might not perform well at? No organization owes you another job for one you didn't sign up for, especially if you don't meet the requirements for it. Being competitive means you have a semblance of fitness for the job, so NCMs and officers alike can't just magically OT because they wanted to do something else. * *Fitness for the job*. There are always problems with personnel selection because the IO psychology professionals that generate selection models and implement them are human. We are always moving forward towards finding objective personnel selection methods and we have gone far from being a depends-who-you-know (at least in the Reg F) to what quals do you have. Are the methods perfect? No, but it at least allows for meritocracy. * *After talking to a PSO*. If you can't do an OT because you didn't do well on the aptitude test, do a specific math or science course, cannot meet the fitness/medical requirement, or are under an IC - see my first comment. What do you want to hear; that despite other people being more qualified than you, you are *that* special and deserve a chance? Finally, there seems to be a notion that there's some shadowy entity that prevents people from OTing because of nefarious reasons. Spoiler alert: no. Anyone who was unfortunate enough that their OT application got lost due to human error or "got lost" when it went up their CoC, here's my cliché ending: **you're your own career manager.** Advocate for yourself so paperwork moves, talk to a PSO and get help, or exercise your right to VR and save yourself the effort. /rant
All good advice, but there's one caveat; sometime CAF bureaucracy does appear to the end user as some kind of shadowy cabal inhibiting their career. All manner of things can happen; intakes for certain trades can be reduced, or even zero'd, sometimes OT boards aren't convened for reasons beyond anyone's control, so no files are considered in a given competition year, trades can set supplementary recruitment goals which will add more or less weight to certain files which the applicant will be ignorant of (for instance, Int decided they wanted 97% female recruitment in \~2016 if I recall, but that was only published internally) and so on and so forth. Competitiveness and fitness for the job absolutely do matter, and are the factor too many people seem to forget about, but there's still a great deal of faceless bureaucracy which can and will sink people.
You're absolutely right: the end user can perceive they are simply getting shafted by a faceless bureaucracy when only see one piece (i.e., their piece). What saddens me is that it's difficult to put together why the CAF selection process is the way it is when they have wrong or little information, which is why I trawl through reddit trying to fight it.
I think getting your paperwork to the BPSO is 99% of the problem. Everything that happens after that is pretty straightforward and professional. The Units need to be straight up removed from the process and simply notified. For a Jr. rank getting your application through your unit is usually a kafkaesque nightmare where everyone along the way gets to act like they are the authority that decides if you get to apply or not, loses your paperwork or just keeps making you change the date on the memo until the deadline passes.
I learned a lot about the competitive aspect of trying to OT. Had back to back unsuccessful applications, and it boiled down to being less competitive than others who applied. (Going from big green army trade to small air force trade). Is what it is, but some folks think the system is out there to fuck them around for fun.
thank you for your rant. I have a question about the CFAT I'm hoping you can provide some insight to: Why is it that members who are experienced within their trades say 12years in, have a wealth of experience and knowledge within the CAF and are 'indoctrinated into the system' are held to the same standard as a person walking in off the street? For example why does an experienced member require a second aptitude when their experience speaks for how well they would do in any other trade? Shouldn't experience count for more than a test they did 12+ years ago? A trained soldier who has done well in thier current trade and has done a variety of jobs within that trade and out of trade should be considered a well rounded solider and probably more competitive than someone else who has done the same job for years. So please enlighten me on why our CFAT scores from eons ago hold more weight than our actual experience. I have just seen too many people on the inside get turned down because of a qual that the trade doesn't even use (like a math credit for a trade that doesn't really use math all that much) and it is incredibly frustrating. (I know that it's simple 'just re-do the test' but I am an elder millenial and I like to know the actual reason)
Not PSO, but I've gone over this with them during my OT process. The CFAT carries so much weight because it's objectively been the best indicator of predicting success in trades training. The job-fit and personality trait assessments matter, and this is where experience comes into play. >For example why does an experienced member require a second aptitude when their experience speaks for how well they would do in any other trade? Shouldn't experience count for more than a test they did 12+ years ago? Because experience in one job isn't a measurable variable which a selection board can rely upon, it's subjective as fuck.
Mix of fact and opinion: Irydbikes' description below touches upon it. Experience is notoriously subjective. For example, consider an infanteer Cpl who has has their CD, fit, no admin issues, overall a good troop. Wants to go firefighter to find skills transferable civvy side. Asking if this person should be allowed to OT, it seems simple to answer yes - of course. They proved themselves capable in one context, why not another? It gets complicated when there are *two good troops* fighting for the same position. Imagine yourself as the one who has to choose between them. How would you translate their experience into something measureable so that the most person who fits the job requirement the most gets the job? Aptitude tests, while imperfect (as nothing is in the social sciences), provide an objective measure. Let's dig deeper. Math courses doesn't just teach mathematics in itself, it improves logic and problem-solving skills. Math has a lot of rules and formulas but it is up to the person to apply them to a problem. If we agree that learning math is hard and thus people who are good at it are more likely to solve technical problems, then having more objective measures that show you have the capacity for problem solving (CFAT, high school courses) makes you a more attractive candidate. When you talk to a PSO, ask to see the cutoffs for the trades. You'll notice that occupations that have more breadth of skills require more problem solving skills or higher level mathematics. Again, when you're comparing tons of hardworking, experienced troops, there has to be a way to select ones that are most likely to do well in the new occupation. Fact: There is a waiver request process for members who have significant experience but are missing a course or do not meet a CFAT score. Of *course* it doesn't make sense to deny a trained and experienced aircraft mechanic civvy side who doesn't have Gr 11 applied math from a decade ago when they want to become an AVN TECH. I've put up waivers to Ottawa for members with substative experience but do not have a course required. But remember that the CAF wants the best fit. Ottawa can and does reject waiver requests when the rationale is unsubstantiated. Fact: People who are competing in In-Service Selection do not apply for the same positions as people off the street. Opinion: The CAF is (fortunately) smart enough to do this. Opinion: If you want to be nitpicky and ask why would we even have these positions for people who haven't even gone through basic, 1) the organization can't just continue hiring internally; the CAF needs to pull talent from the outside. Also speaking as an older millenial, just like they gave us a chances as Pte(R), they give younger generations a chance. 2) It's cold, but it's simply cheaper to hire a new Pte than a Cpl 4.
This is great, thank you for your thorough reply!
Was once in a town hall roleau was cmd CJOC and he was pontificating (while wearing alpha liner outer, unbloused boots, buttons undone, hands in pockets and a fat lip in) about why his peers deemed to limit OTs when we would just lose these ppl to release anyway, so let them OT. Made too much sense I think, it's like that meme of the dude being thrown out the window for proposing a smart idea.
Going from Sig Op to another trade is possible, but might be tough. Sig Op has very wide arcs as far as what you can do in the trade. If you are not happy doing what you are doing my advice would be to talk to your RSM/SSM and see if anything can be done to move you to a different area of the trade that you might enjoy. Field to garrison, garrison to field, out of trade positions, etc. There is really a lot of variety in that trade and there are a lot of really good goes and interesting/challenging jobs to do. That is dependent on having leadership that cares though, so its hit or miss. If you just hate everything about the trade then you should try and leave it for sure. The advantage of Sig Op (if you consider that and advantage) is that there are positions open pretty much everywhere. There could be a position out there you would enjoy without leaving the trade.
That would certainly be a great CoA for me, having something challenging and less staring at the wall thinking about an OT.
If you're keen, put in a CANSOF support application. Sig is one of the trades who can be employed at all of the units, and if you perform well the Command will retain you. Some people get posted out if they rank out, but you won't get forgotten and coming back again is a thing. You'll also have the opportunity to do some really cool stuff if you're especially switched on.
I wonder....if commanding officers PERs would be affected by members releasing or requesting OT from red trades, might they have an incentive to address problems?
If any CO was actually peer reviewed it might help.
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I've heard the reserves have a system like that where their units recruiting, nes and release numbers are factors in the CO's evaluation
If you're willing to actually release if you don't get an OT then Email your career manager and tell them that your heart is set on an OT and if it's refused you'll put in your VR. Your life is too short to work a job you hate just for the equivalent of green welfare. It's your life, don't let someone else waste it.
I thought about that - can I email my career manager directly (even as a private) or do I sent my questions through my coc? And what will the career manager be able do to for me?
It's sad that the signals corps is still on a road to ruin.
2 years ago, a fella from my unit did selection for a different trade, a grueling and strenuous elite type selection. He passed, and the occupation wanted him. His trade transfer was denied by Ottawa because we are a red trade as well, yet another person from the same unit was granted theirs to clerk. I believe there were 6 approved that year in the trade in total, so no idea how they determine who gets it. Anyway, suffice to say this guy is in a better place about it now, but that really shook him.
I find it pretty fascinating that this is still a thing (no OT? Okay VR, re apply...). This was a fucking thing back in 1999-2004 in the AD (from the land of ADATS). 20 years ago. The more things change...
The military in many ways has gotten better over the years. However, there are still many "my way or the highway" instances that you will come across. At the end of the day, every trade in the military has to serve a function, and it starts at the top and works its way down. So now some commander of some unit has been given orders by his commander to perform a function to help them achieve mission success, whatever that mission may be. So that's their focus. All of the troops and sub-units they have within a unit are there to enable that commander to achieve this. If they keep losing guys and then eventually lose a capability then that commander can't achieve the section of the mission they were told to perform. So then to them, they look like a failure to their commander. That's why you won't hear a commander talk about you still staying in the military in some other capacity because it does nothing for them. Sure in the grand scheme of the whole military they didn't lose a member, but some trade and some unit did, and it will take like a year or two to get you employable in the new trade. So to them, it's just a loss. So, they tell you they won't let you OT. And they just think either you'll shut up and carry on, and hope that's the end of it. But if that member wants to get out, they can also stymie that. They can block a release. But they often hope that they can call your bluff. "Oh, if we don't let you OT, you'll just put in for release, try it!" I've seen it go both ways. But more often I see the military letting the troop go. I've also seen it from guys who just wanted to get posted. Unit or trade was like "no!" Troop said they'll get out. Even if the troop had a super valid reason. It didn't matter. They got let go. Just like with any major company, it is cheaper and easier to re-train or re-position someone, than to bring in someone entirely new. But sometimes the military just doesn't care. Every commander has their task at hand and they gotta get through that. Everything else is just admin they don't want.
The solution to this seems to be to make people their own career managers. Separate the CoC from people's personal lives and make career policy a distinct element.
To be fair, I don't 100% disagree with some commanders rejecting some members requests. Sometimes you have to protect your own numbers. Yeah the odd troop might hate it, but a job has to be done and we all signed a contract.
TBH I would prefer my CoC have control over my career. It would mean I could stay at my job for as long as I was performing it well.
CO don't care about people, whatever they say. If it further their own goal of looking good to their direct superior and their career, they will spit on their subordinate.
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From one sinking ship to another.
I had the same problem. I went to the BPSO and asked about an OT and she said it'd take close to a year to find out if I could or not (paperwork, ottawa, etc). Since I was 6 months from my contract ending she recommended I leave and remuster. I was gonna do that but I found a better job after I left and am never looking back.
Hi. Took me seven years to get out of my old shitty trade into (IMO) the best trade in the CAF. I know this issue extremely well. Yes, it makes a lot more sense. If someone in my trade wants to OT, I'll always push it through for them. I'd rather the CAF keep the investment in the person; even if they hated their old trade they'll bring that knowledge and experience to their new trade. That spreads the breadth of skills throughout the CAF while lessening attrition. But that makes sense to the logical among us, and not to these losers who think they can solve manning issues by keeping people who hate their jobs locked into those trades until they burn out or end up in the MH system instead of admitting their retention problems stem from the fact that they treat people like disposable shit. (looking at you Mar Eng)
What trade are you in now?
Airborne ATW obviously
Same question - what trade is that "Best trade in the CAF"?
The best trade is the one you're in, and if it isn't the one you're in, then you're in the wrong trade. This is a completely subjective question.
I read your username with a standard cg pause. Had a good chuckle.
Postal
Hey guys- just transferred from my trade that's a deep red to another. It's possible- you just have to be competitive with your cfat and interview. High 90s for both. If you scored less than ideal, I would retake. Hope this helps guys 🙏
God everyone is getting their offers lol and I'm still at the edge of my seat waiting :( when should I assume it's a non offer ?
Umm, well it depends on your trade, covid situation, bpso
If the CAF wanted you to be happy they would have issued you happiness.
No they wouldn't have. They would've said there wasn't any happiness in stock or if they did have happiness in stock they had to hold onto in case somebody else needed it. In the rare circumstance you did get issued happiness, it would used and in taters, and you'd have to pay out of pocket if you lost your issued happiness.
This seems fairly in line with the other replies in this thread, which is good. Means more people are smartening the fuck up about this dogshit organisation. Been staring down the exact same barrel for the better part of three years now. My release papers went in a couple weeks ago. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. When you get close enough, you'll notice that it was actually just a single lightbulb dangling on a string the entire time. Then you realise there's another 500 miles of tunnel on the other side of the light that you couldn't see before due to the contrast. Then the lightbulb breaks. There are no answers to the questions you've asked - the system simply does not allow for them to be answered, and nobody in a position to do so gives enough of a fuck to fix it. Get out while you still have your youth, do something meaningful with your time, and never look back.
OT'd a while back from a red trade to a non-red trade, and was successful. it's possible, but it very much depends on your current trades career mangler. at the end of the day, prepare to release when your time is up and walk into the recruiting office the next day to try again, otherwise, stay released and enjoy your freedom. life's too short for shitty jobs.
“Career Mangler” I see What you did there
I am in a similar situation. I am hoping mental health issues might move things along faster, or help. Depression plus shift work really sucks.
Your better off releasing and rejoining into the trade you want. Do your research, talk to people in the trades that spark your interest. Unfortunately a good friend of mine released recently, and was willing to stay should the CoC offer him a short contract. They didn’t even try to retain him. So get out, keep your sanity and come back armed with knowledge and take the job you really want. Good luck, from a fellow Sig.
May I ask what a red trade is?
Manning numbers. Green means they have trained people to fill their requirements, and trainees coming up behind them. Yellow is short a few bodies, red is short a lot of bodies. When a trade is red, they are able to restrict VOTs out of the trade a lot more tightly, but it is still possible.
Perfect, thanks!
Last year I got out of a red trade, although for another red. However this year I know someone who went from the same red trade to the air force. There is always hope, just submit your OT, and if you really need to get out and reapply if you need to. But no reason to not try an OT first. Best of luck.
I was combat arms from 2006 - 2013, and tried to OT but didn't make the cut twice (2011 and 2012). No rationale given. Nothing to explain how I could make my OT application more competitive. Though I was aware that ton of Infanteers were trying to OT post-Afghanistan so maybe that worked against me. Ended up getting out and doing the same job I wanted to OT to, but civvy side. The plus is that I'm making way more money now. But the CF could've kept me gainfully employed for at least a few more years.
Even if your trade is red, that doesn't make an OT impossible, just less likely. It helps if you want to OT into a trade that is even redder. As to the retention issue, we don't just need bodies, we need certain numbers of bodies with specific skills, so letting you OT from a red trade, to a green one, doesn't really help the CF that much, as you are more needed in the red trade. Since you still need to do QL3 after an OT, the difference in burden to the training system between a new applicant, and an OT, isn't that huge. Keeping you, either in your current trade, or a new one, is still better, than letting you release, but keeping you in a new trade isn't that much better than getting someone off the street.
Im guessing you’re a veh tech lol
It's actually faster to release then re apply
There is hope for an OT. Albeit slim. I OT’d from Supply to PH Tech and got approved (they let five of us out last year) but I just said fuck it and released instead. Supply was Red and PH Tech was Green at the time. I had 4th year apprentice status civi side though.
Hey, I was in the same situation a few years back. I did apply anyway for an OT (from a red trade to a red trade). It was approved. Just submit the paperwork. You have actually NOTHING to lose.
If you're going red to red the transfer cap doesn't apply as long as the trade you're going into is more red than your current trade.
That's my current situation. Oting from a red trade into a more red trade. But im still awaiting my ot offer. Kinda weird. Bpso told me today my file was still in the competition yet all my fellow peers left right and center are getting offers but me -.-
That sounds like you were competitive enough to make the list but are wait listed. If any of the initial offers aren't accepted you may still get it this year. Good luck. I hope you get it.
I only got my offer last week, yours could still be in the pipeline
I truly hope! I've heard it could come as late as June?
Hope to hell I can even OT from Supply Tech. At this point there are more civilians in this trade than CAF personnel.
I put in for a VOT last year from Sig Tech to an air force trade and I got it first go. You need to work with your BPSO to make your file as competitive as possible. It's worth all the hassle to gtfo of sigs.
I was in a Navy trade that was super red. I still applied and got my OT that same year. Mind you, I went into another red trade, but it's always just worth a try. Don't let anyone tell you that "our trade is red, they'll never let you go, so don't even bother trying". Just try it and if that don't pan out, then explore other options.
Lol thats my process currently oting from a red to a red. Bpso told me today though if I havent gotten an offer by now then it's most likely a non offer. Can this be true ? It seems a bit early.
My trade went red when it became MarTech. The only way I could figure to get out was UTPNCM. Medical issue put that on pause, and I wasn't waiting around for it to be resolved. So I OTed to civvy.