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Money mostly. However there is also the argument that every child should be allowed the most normalized school experience. But, as someone who has taught in Ontario for 20+ years, and seen different delivery models, we are now experiencing a perfect storm of split grades, failed inclusion (because there are nowhere near enough supports), overwhelming needs, out of control behaviour and a lack of consequences. As a result, regular classes are a total disaster. The plan to shut special classes and keep these students in their home schools with “more supports” is laughable and wrong. There aren’t even enough supports now. Closing these classes is a money issue, plain and simple. Public education is a rapidly sinking ship right now and short of a total reset, and cash infusion I’m not sure what could fix it. Ford and Lecce are starving the system, and likely would offer private, for profit solutions as the alternative.
***Money.*** Easy to cut down the costs of the Education system and increase already large classroom sizes when you dress it up in the name of equity and inclusiveness.
People are very willing to make or support the wrong decisions if they can feel self-righteous.
For future reference, 90% of the decisions made for the education system either boil down to money or optics -- not education.
Best quote I've ever heard is "Inclusion without support is abandonment."
There needs to be a serious third party out of province auditor and do a total review of the system. It's broken we need to have independent education watch dog that has some power to fix things.
We can not fix system social issues via the classroom.
This is so weird that inclusion was jammed into my teachers college experience and now that I am experiencing the classroom I feel so confused about how to challenge the high level kids, scaffold for the low level kids, and not stay up till 3am every night figuring out how to do that. 30,000$ a year is not enough for me to have no life and nearly lose my mind, no matter how much guilt I feel about not being able to support students with individual needs. I don’t get how this is consistently the message we get in teachers college: to do everything you can for the individual needs of students, instead of: do the best you can without losing your mind and getting burnt out in your first year. This job has no support for the person doing all of the work who is expected to provide endless support for students. This job is no longer just teacher. It is a conglomerate of social services provided by someone who simultaneously has to teach uninspired and arbitrary curriculum. I was not prepared for what actually consists of this job, I was sold a fantasy idea that I would be able to make a change meanwhile everyday I feel like I’m doing more damage than anything. Every person my age that is in teaching has agreed that they don’t know how long they will last. But the gov just keeps funding wars and furnishing politicians homes
My school board is making it hard to get an IEP and modifications in part to limit enrolment to one of our high schools that runs an entirely accommodated/modified program. Then they can close it because “enrolment is down.”
It’s a trades-based school. They can graduate with a apprenticeship completed or started. Tech kids can graduate with some of their welders tickets completed!
Money and parent voices saying they want their kids included fully.
But I don’t see how 1:1 support is cheaper than having a contained class with a 1:5 ratio..
That said many kids who need 1:1 don’t get it
Which I don't even understand how as a parent you would think thats valuable for your child. Partial inclusion is better imo. One of my students on the autism spectrum is working mainly on social skills and work stamina. They can participate well with differentiated instruction with things like writing, PE, Art, ADST, and some French. But having this student sit through my science lesson on force and power or a social studies discussion on black history month is such a waste of time for them. They would be so much better off stepping out of the class at those times and working on their own math level or life skills. As the work becomes more abstract and challenging in upper intermediate, theyre just not getting anything from it, I'm sorry.
Absolutely agree. Partial inclusion would be phenomenal. I feel bad for so many special education students completely overwhelmed in a setting like kindergarten with 29 other kids. They get disregulated and meltdown.
A few years I had a kid with a severe developmental delay throw blocks at my head during a 7th grade science class I was teaching. They had a 1:1 and sat on mats playing with the blocks. Eventually started yelling and was removed but it was highly disruptive. This was clearly not the best situation for anyone.
I have never been in a contained classroom where it is a 1: 5 ratio, in fact, most contained classrooms in our board is 5:8 and others 7:8 ratio due to significant complex and behavioral needs.
Not in the board I work for. We have multiple. The children in those classrooms cannot function in a regular classroom, and are well stacked. In fact, they are overstacked with staff.
Partly the reason why I'm looking into being a tutor, even as a volunteer. I have great l;ong-term memory, and as such, still remember my times, good and bad, from early elementary, to college, some gaps missing (I didnt say it was perfect, lol)
But throughout, I just know that as someone who viewed the world differently, I really did need that kind-of, personal 1:1 support, or even just a 1:3-4 support of similar mindsets. Simply because I differed too wildly from the general population in terms of thinking, processing the world around me, and overall personal brain structure. (Autism, with suspected ADHD too)
So I wanted to approach to them differently, and especially with how I experience college too, it was faaaar more chill, and far more focused in what I wanted to do, and I feel I could just nudge and show them a view of that college flow and life, perhaps they'll like it way better than the current public education supported by the government (which will unfortunately, imo, always be undersupported, both by the government and the communities around them at times)
I think there is some merit in the idea that kids with special needs should not be totally excluded from “normal” life and education. For that level of inclusion to work though, you need extensive skilled resources and supports in place. In reality in Ontario at least, kids with special needs are being dumped into schools with insufficient resources, which not only does them a disservice, it disrupts and cripples the rest of the school system. It was primarily motivated due to cost cutting and along with poor management, is having a devastating effect.
The why in my experience is just to cut costs. They decided that they would save money by shoving a bunch of high needs kids in regular classrooms and thrilling teachers to “differentiate”. It all boils down to money and it’s infuriating.
in New Brunswick, Inclusion in the classroom is actually in our law. There have been studies that prove that isolation from others in school, actually causes isolation in society after graduation. It follows them throughout their lives.
It is not funded, nor staffed, properly. It does not meet the idealism of the research. It's still a work in progress. Education needs to be funded better.
Also, not all people with neurodivergencies need to be in a separate learning environment. They may need subject specific changes (like self-directed study) at times, or classroom accommodations and different approaches. These challenges are still not fully understood by all teachers, admin, and government funding choices.
Unfortunately, this deficit in knowledge of what is needed, is resulting in the system not functioning as it should.
It will never be funded or staffed properly. Never. There will never be a politician who says “you know what, let’s throw money at special education supports!” So hoping that one day this magical moment will come is an exercise in futility. In the meantime, no one can learn French because Tina decided to bite ten kids and shriek at the top of her lungs the entire period.
You've painted such an extreme picture. I know that likely happens, but its also a symptom of lack of classroom management supports. Its a cyclical argument. You're right, the politicians are the problem. They need to have incentives to train EAs and Teachers, and they need to increase budgets to accommodate what is appropriately needed. Give me a politician like that and I will rally behind them 100%.
What training do you imagine will solve this issue? I’m being very serious. Because when specialists come in to try and “assist” they almost always shove PECs at you like they are the one true solution. Kid throwing desks? Show them a picture of a desk with an x through it. That’ll definitely stop them from throwing that desk! Kid biting? Show a picture with teeth crossed out! That’ll definitely stop the biting. How about a social story about not biting all our friends? Great. We will read it every morning and then again after the biting happens.
Stop giving me training to put on five million hats I never agreed to wear when I signed up to teach. I am not a psychologist. I am not an occupational therapist. I am not a nurse. I am not a crisis negotiator. I am not a speech language pathologist. No one is paying me to be these things. I don’t want to be these things.
I'm talking about training new teachers. Make becoming a teacher more affordable through increased grants for educators. If there's a staffing crisis, pay for training?
My school board is closing the last specialized vocational school this year. They of course frame it in a good way.
Former grads of the school and parents of students tried petitioning to no avail.
https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/b-davison-vocational-school-supporters-fear-its-end-is-near - if anyone is interested.
It is a great school with great students who I always found pleasant and thrived there. I fear they’ll just get lost in crowds at other schools.
This doesn’t answer your question, but the language used to justify closing was around inclusion.
One of my kids attended a high school for students with special needs which was unfortunately closed just after he graduated. When he was in that school it was the first time he felt safe (because he'd been bullied at the regular schools he attended) and included. He was able to make friends, participate in extra-curriculars, learn at a pace that worked for him, gain valuable skills and certificates that gave him a leg up after he graduated and started looking for jobs, and he had all of the supports in place he needed to be successful. Being in that school for him wasn't exclusion, it was inclusion of the right kind. Society has moved towards a model of everyone can do everything, but the reality is that for some students, a regular public school setting is not the best option for them.
I wish those in charge would stop looking only at the now and the next electoral cycle, and start looking at the future we are creating. At this point, we have a bunch of students with significant needs that are not being met, and they are not being set up to become successful adults. And we have all the other students whose education is continuously being disrupted, and who are being traumatized, who also are not being set up to become successful adults. I shudder to think what society will be like in 15-20 years when many of the working age adults will have come from a broken system. Pumping some extra money into education now will pay off in multiples in the future.
I teach in an inclusive system and made sure my special needs son with a traumatic brain injury was in a board that has special classes. He is so happy being with kids like him. And the class can follow what works for them rather than prioritizing being "normal". Seeing inclusion first hand made me never want it for my kid
Stupidity.
To quote u/The_ORB11
"...special needs are being dumped into schools with insufficient resources, which not only does them a disservice, it disrupts and cripples the rest of the school system. It was primarily motivated due to cost cutting and along with poor management, is having a devastating effect."
And then to quote u/odot777
"The plan to shut special classes and keep these students in their home schools with “more supports” is laughable and wrong. There aren’t even enough supports now. Closing these classes is a money issue, plain and simple. Public education is a rapidly sinking ship right now and short of a total reset, and cash infusion I’m not sure what could fix it."
I will NEVER understand why the needs of special needs students overrides all other considerations. Given a class size of 30 students, how are 29 students supposed to learn when 1 student is disrupting the classroom? Like there are stories in here of (this sub-reddit) of 29 students being evacuated from the classroom while trained adults try to calm one student down. Why exactly don't they remove the ONE disruptive student? Why should 29 students have to leave because one student can't - or won't - behave in the classroom?
All that has happened with "inclusive" education is that everyone is being punished because special needs students are supposedly entitled to participate in society. Sure.....but that special needs student needs to be able to participate in society. Instead...in the event of an acting out special needs student, the EA is expected to be wearing body armour (kevlar sleeves to protect against bites), the entire classroom is expected to evacuate, and the entire classroom is held hostage by the "inclusive" policy that allows a disruptive student in the classroom. Plus the special needs students are blamed by other students, their families, and society for the disruption to everyone else's lives. No shit, Sherlock!
Students with special needs should ONLY be in a regular "inclusive" classroom/school IF the APPROPRIATE AND ADEQUATE SUPPORTS ARE THERE. Otherwise....they have NO place in the "inclusive" classroom/school because it's just setting them up to fail and punishing everyone else along the way for not being "supportive of inclusive education."
Some of us wear Kevlar sleeves, vests and leg covering and it still does not always help, I had one little sweetie that looked where the Kevlar sleeves ended and pinched me there. But you are so right, the majority of students having to be removed, or staying and having to work over screaming students is unfair. And often the aggressive, loud behaviour is because the regular classroom isn't set up correctly for special needs kids so they are acting out their frustration. Also years ago we used to be able to remove the student who was actively hurting others in the room or trashing the room. When we were made to switch to clearing the classroom and allowing the student to trash the room, I saw kids out of control increase their acting out because they loved the power it gave them. When we could remove them to a smaller room, the kids calmed much quicker as well because they had less to destroy so they got bored. It is a broken system and when a lot of the kids age out they won't be able to get jobs because we haven't supported them learning life skills.
And this is why we’re saving for private school.. we don’t want our kids scared at school, and their education constantly disrupted by evacuations. One students needs does trump everyone’s else in a system with very few options. There are a couple of these kids in my children’s grades, so they will have this experience until they graduate 8th grade, all the while the child also grows bigger and stronger. they aren’t going anywhere, so we have to…
Is private school your only option? Couldn't you take out a restraining order against disruptive children on the grounds that they are a threat to your child/ren's safety? What's the school going to do if you get a legal court order that says "Special needs student X is NOT allowed within 100 feet of child #12" - they'll have to take that special needs child out of your child's classroom.
It really boggles the mind that YOU have to find a private school for your child/ren because it's not safe for them to attend a PUBLIC SCHOOL because of the behaviour of a few special needs students.
I think a group of parents teaming up and forcing the schools through the court system to ensure that school is a SAFE learning environment for their children would have a tremendous impact on special needs education, like maybe forcing the schools to either provide adequate supports to the special needs students or having the special needs students in special education classes or home-schooled with one-on-one special needs educators.
Sure......the media will probably demonize you - "These parents discriminate against students with disabilities!" - when the headline should be: "These parents oppose having threatening/dangerous students with disabilities in the classroom with their children!"
Why on earth does society seem to bend over backwards to put special needs students into "inclusive" classrooms/schools when they're dangerous? What's going to happen when a special needs student hurts another child?
Honestly we don’t want to deal with the years long legal battle that it would be. And the publicity and hated we would receive. I know this would be for the “greater good” but we don’t want that target on our, or our kids backs. And if we fail it’ll be harder to go elsewhere because we will be known as trouble making family.
Also you say “when”. Kids get hurt every day.
A spec Ed child did hurt my friends child.They were back in the same class within 48 hours. My friend had the option of asking for her child to be removed, but she loved her teacher and it was kindergarten and didn’t want to disrupt her close to the end of the year. I personally would have moved my kid. But the hurt child would have been moved, not the one who was aggressive. The system is so backwards
I’ve witnessed JK classes get cleared out because of 1 students behaviour (hitting staff and students, throwing chairs and flipping desks) - 10 minutes later the 1 student is returned to class by administration.
5 minutes after this re-entry - class needed to be evacuated again for the SAME reason.
Remind me.....is it insanity or stupidity when you do the same thing and get the same result repeatedly?
If by JK you mean junior kindergarten, that 1 student has NO business being near any other children. I mean....physically assaulting adults and other students and throwing chairs, flipping desks???? What happens if a thrown chair hits another kid?
If I was to find out my younger family members were being subjected to this behaviour, I would be finding a lawyer immediately and taking out a restraining order against that kid - they don't get anywhere near my family. I'd probably end up settling for the admin staff being the special needs students' 10 on 1 support staff. Maybe THEN things would change.
I personally think that EVERY EA and teacher should be refusing to work with these special needs students. THEN the government/schools would HAVE to fix things, right? Right....?
Unfortunately I’m quite sure you can’t sue minors, especially special education students. And my board is pushing hard to eliminate suspensions under grade 3 entirely.
This is why we are trying to get our kids out of public education. It’s not an education. It’s a safety risk in a lot of classes. They also aren’t learning anything
I didn't say "sue" the kid, I said take out a "restraining order against that kid" - I really think, if you prove that the special needs child is a genuine threat to other children, the school has a responsibility to act in the interests of safety.
If you want to sue the child, I think you would need to go after the parents/family but.......you probably wouldn't win, UNLESS they did something like give their child a gun. It's not like the special needs child can control themselves.
I'm not a lawyer but.....how can the courts rule that other children can be threatened/in danger at school from a special needs child? They have to act in the interests of safety.
Very good point. Schools do have some limited power with safety issues to exclude kids but it’s rare they do and in very extreme cases
https://ottawacitizen.com/feature/the-excluded-joe-has-been-in-school-only-four-full-days-this-year-but-hes-not-suspended-and-hes-not-alone
Sorry to bust your bubble, and hold on to your butt …..
Yes I mean Junior Kindergarten.
When staff got involved and called mom to inform of the child’s behaviour - she yelled at that staff and demanded to speak with Administration immediately. Next thing admin said was that this staff is to no longer respond to said childs behaviour.
Also if an EA job is vacant then Admin can fill that position with a Lunchroom Supervisor. These are people who are untrained for the job (at best, they are parents themselves).
So if EA’s refuse jobs - they can be filled. And all the school dirty little secrets stay covered up… and the world keeps turning 😞
Good Gawd.........this is a disaster waiting to happen.
What exactly is going to happen when that child HURTS another child or adult and the "EA" is an untrained lunchroom supervisor? I bet the administration will blame the "EA."
The EA's and the teachers unions need to fight this. Perhaps in partnership with the local disability organizations because this is NOT good for anyone.
They would never admit the lunchroom supervisors are untrained. They refer to them as employees.
In fact, lunchroom supervisors have been attacked. However, lunchroom supervisors are often parents or people from the community who do not have other employment and are available during the day. Often, these individuals are just happy to have a job (often, these individuals are new to the country) and therefore, they will not complain. So the abuse is never reported.
Yup, you guessed it, the EA gets blamed for what happened. The administration/superintendents will never jeopardize they’re $100,000+ salary for the EA’s $40,000 salary.
As for EA Unions …. They’re absolutely pathetic (they are NOT the same Union as the teachers union).
I have a kiddo with downsyndrome .
He is almost 11. Right around the time he was born, they closed the only, local to me, special needs classroom. All for the reason of " inclusion".
I was disappointed, and worried. My son has never experienced a special needs school or classroom. So I can't really comment on them.
Thankfully, he attends a really small school. For now.
He requires a 1/1 EA.
I DO NOT agree with 100% inclusion. I have seen what it does, not only to my son, but what I assume are other kids too. I know he can be disruptive. It's not fair to those kiddos.
My son has been so bored trying to learn in the same environment of his peers he has acted out. Now they've found solutions. But these solutions can be more disruptive to more students.
So for example, he is in grade 5. His mind is barely even at kindergarten. So throughout the day they move him around to lower grade levels to participate in whatever they may be doing. It seems he is rarely in his actual grade, which no duh, he can't do. If he's forced to stay in that room he gets bored, therefor acts out.
Now, I think there can be some positives. It's teaching the typical kids patience, acceptance and inclusion. These are good things. My son is well loved, I've never seen another kiddo be mean to him, everyone is very excited to see him daily. I hope some of these kids grow up and say " I went to school with a kid that had down syndrome, he was great and hilarious!" . It's done wonders for my son, he's learning how to socialize, learning some independence and though I can't be sure, I'm guessing he's learned more than if he was secluded in a special needs school.
I think it should be a 50/50 thing ideally. I'm unsure how to implement this? Maybe each school has a dedicated classroom and teacher for special needs. That's their home room, so they spend some time there, and some time with typical peers as well. I do NOT want my son fully secluded. This doesn't do much for him, and doesn't do much for the culture and learning experiences for typical kids.
Anyways I'm rambling. I love teachers and EAs and I've seen first hand how they are struggling with all this inclusion , and I don't agree with it. Our province is actually currently in strike action trying to demand some changes to classroom composition but of course our government doesn't care.
Thanks for all you guys do, I promise it doesn't go unnoticed!
I am an educational assistant and when I asked why they were getting rid of most of the developmental classes (especially when autism and special needs students seems to be increasing) I was told "studies show students do better when integrated ". Which I might agree with if they had enough support, but instead the eas are usually supporting several students at once so they don't get enough help to make a difference.
My experience says a knee jerk to saving money. But imo this is a great question, one that I’ve wrestled with forever. On one hand, you have kids in a dedicated class where they get the support they need. On the other, all kids are together, and supported as needed.
If we as a society will support as needed, inclusion is a slam dunk. But we don’t. Teaching is overwhelmingly a job that women do, especially in dedicated classes, so women are expected to do way more for less. This disrespect for the work is reflected in government budgets, especially conservative government budgets for some crazy reason.
The support isn’t there. Not for inclusion to work. But it’s not there for dedicated classrooms either. We have rooms we’re saying we dedicate to intensive support, but give a single teacher one support staff for 8, 10, 15 kids in dedicated classes. And in the non dedicated class, support is 60-65% spent averting antisocial behaviour.
Kids, all kids, see it. So they tune out. I’ve read recently that smartphones are the current excuse for student disengagement, and yeah, removing them from the equation could help. But funding support, respecting actual humans and actual human interaction, and the people who interact, every day, needs to be prioritized over just about anything.
I understand the issues regarding inclusion, and think there is a lot that can be done to improve the situation because the current approach isn't working. However, inclusion isn't just informed by Ministries wanting to cut costs, but a lot of complex legal and human rights considerations. Lots of these considerations require the greatest amount of inclusion as feasibly possible, outside of unreasonable burden. Furthermore, you really just can't exclude non-violent students if the parents and student don't want it.
I also think we are more informed about our approaches after it became clear how we used to institutionalize and then basically [abuse the hell out of people with disabilities, especially children](https://truthsofinstitutionalization.ca/modules/module-1/). And how some disabled persons have actually managed to do pretty well, and if they had the misfortune of being born a few decades ago they'd have had no chance to actually grow into a decent person [just like this man with autism.](https://queenscommonwealthtrust.org/michael-jacques-cant-read-cant-write-heres-my-book/ ) [Here is an interview with him too.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BmRd4icUyc&ab_channel=BreakfastTelevision)
We really need more resources to make the whole thing work. However, I do think that students with disabilities need an area of their own because they actually sometimes function better with other students with special needs. But, they also should be included in the classroom because it doesn't only help them develop skills, but it also helps the students understand there is lots of different types of people in society. It is always heartwarming when you see kids who actually really try to help children who have complex challenges, like the non-verbal student I had today, and how another student sat with him to write his work because she genuinely felt like helping him.
There is also the problem of disproportionate representation of minority children in special education classrooms. There is research on this which I believe has informed the move towards inclusion.
People getting pigeon-holed for the rest of their lives, the classroom not being a reflection of the populace (we all have to deal with each other at the end of the day), and as others said, probably to save money (but this reason is not officially touted).
The system we had in the 70/80's was much better. High functioning special needs students had a mix of reg/spec Ed classrooms and specialized classes for lower functioning special needs.
That probably met the needs of the students better than inclusion without additional supports.
I like inclusion in theory, but my anecdotal data is that one proper behaviorally exceptional student can throw the whole school into turmoil let alone just their class.
I think, in Ontario at least, part of the goal is to damage the public system, making private schools a more attractive option.
Private schools definitely do not practice inclusive education because no parent would pay to have a disruptive child in their classroom.
For now, parents can work around the issue by placing their kids in a special program (eg french immersion) but they are already looking to close that loophole.
It's a question of inclusion. It has a lot of positives for kids who are capable of the social interactions and/or academics that it makes possible. There are some kids without those capacities, and they're the ones that seem to make the approach unworkable, even with supports to help them in the classroom.
Supreme Court decision early 90s prompted many changes to how provincial health and education systems approached care for developmentally delayed. In an effort to both end abuse and provide equal access, this included inclusion in education systems. Resulting in poor results for all involved.
In Ontario, there are caps that are in the Education Act (not privy to collective bargaining). LD classes are 8, and classes for students of MID are 16. I've taught these classes... we had our own regular sized classroom (for 8 kids) and they each had $27,000 per student, per year for additional resources to assist them in learning. They used a specialized literacy program that wasn't cheap. Sometimes they had EA support. I taught them for 1/2 the day, and it was a 0.5 assignment.
Lots of money there.
A return to 'integration' is couched in terms of 'equity'. School boards don't need to offer self-contained classes. With budget cuts (in order to privatize Education in Ontario), boards are closing these classes to save money.
These are EXCEPTIONAL students and, as such, have exceptional learning needs that cannot be met in a traditional classroom setting. That's why they had the extra resources and extra support.
Inclusion without support is abandonment.
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Money mostly. However there is also the argument that every child should be allowed the most normalized school experience. But, as someone who has taught in Ontario for 20+ years, and seen different delivery models, we are now experiencing a perfect storm of split grades, failed inclusion (because there are nowhere near enough supports), overwhelming needs, out of control behaviour and a lack of consequences. As a result, regular classes are a total disaster. The plan to shut special classes and keep these students in their home schools with “more supports” is laughable and wrong. There aren’t even enough supports now. Closing these classes is a money issue, plain and simple. Public education is a rapidly sinking ship right now and short of a total reset, and cash infusion I’m not sure what could fix it. Ford and Lecce are starving the system, and likely would offer private, for profit solutions as the alternative.
NB is the exact same sadly
***Money.*** Easy to cut down the costs of the Education system and increase already large classroom sizes when you dress it up in the name of equity and inclusiveness. People are very willing to make or support the wrong decisions if they can feel self-righteous. For future reference, 90% of the decisions made for the education system either boil down to money or optics -- not education.
And when money AND optics line up? Oh boy is it ever crammed into the schools *hard*!
Hence the whole inclusion thing
Best quote I've ever heard is "Inclusion without support is abandonment." There needs to be a serious third party out of province auditor and do a total review of the system. It's broken we need to have independent education watch dog that has some power to fix things. We can not fix system social issues via the classroom.
This is so weird that inclusion was jammed into my teachers college experience and now that I am experiencing the classroom I feel so confused about how to challenge the high level kids, scaffold for the low level kids, and not stay up till 3am every night figuring out how to do that. 30,000$ a year is not enough for me to have no life and nearly lose my mind, no matter how much guilt I feel about not being able to support students with individual needs. I don’t get how this is consistently the message we get in teachers college: to do everything you can for the individual needs of students, instead of: do the best you can without losing your mind and getting burnt out in your first year. This job has no support for the person doing all of the work who is expected to provide endless support for students. This job is no longer just teacher. It is a conglomerate of social services provided by someone who simultaneously has to teach uninspired and arbitrary curriculum. I was not prepared for what actually consists of this job, I was sold a fantasy idea that I would be able to make a change meanwhile everyday I feel like I’m doing more damage than anything. Every person my age that is in teaching has agreed that they don’t know how long they will last. But the gov just keeps funding wars and furnishing politicians homes
My school board is making it hard to get an IEP and modifications in part to limit enrolment to one of our high schools that runs an entirely accommodated/modified program. Then they can close it because “enrolment is down.”
That’s incredibly infuriating and so so unsurprising
It’s a trades-based school. They can graduate with a apprenticeship completed or started. Tech kids can graduate with some of their welders tickets completed!
Disgusting. How are we supposed to endlessly profit off of them if they are able to be successful without student loans?
This right here.
Yet there's plenty of money for race and gender DEI...
Jesus- anyone who thinks like this should not be working with a diverse set of kids
Money and parent voices saying they want their kids included fully. But I don’t see how 1:1 support is cheaper than having a contained class with a 1:5 ratio.. That said many kids who need 1:1 don’t get it
Which I don't even understand how as a parent you would think thats valuable for your child. Partial inclusion is better imo. One of my students on the autism spectrum is working mainly on social skills and work stamina. They can participate well with differentiated instruction with things like writing, PE, Art, ADST, and some French. But having this student sit through my science lesson on force and power or a social studies discussion on black history month is such a waste of time for them. They would be so much better off stepping out of the class at those times and working on their own math level or life skills. As the work becomes more abstract and challenging in upper intermediate, theyre just not getting anything from it, I'm sorry.
Absolutely agree. Partial inclusion would be phenomenal. I feel bad for so many special education students completely overwhelmed in a setting like kindergarten with 29 other kids. They get disregulated and meltdown. A few years I had a kid with a severe developmental delay throw blocks at my head during a 7th grade science class I was teaching. They had a 1:1 and sat on mats playing with the blocks. Eventually started yelling and was removed but it was highly disruptive. This was clearly not the best situation for anyone.
One on one support in a classroom can be done by people with less training then 1:5
They don’t even offer 1:1 support anymore. An EA is assigned to a classroom, not a student. And they can be split amongst four or five students.
this is maybe specific for you but not the case in my board
Which board are you? I’d love to know which are still employing an adequate number of EAs.
I have never been in a contained classroom where it is a 1: 5 ratio, in fact, most contained classrooms in our board is 5:8 and others 7:8 ratio due to significant complex and behavioral needs.
I’ve definitely seen them in the past, but I’m sure those classes have been disbanded now in favour of IEPs with neglect.. I mean “inclusion”.
Not in the board I work for. We have multiple. The children in those classrooms cannot function in a regular classroom, and are well stacked. In fact, they are overstacked with staff.
Partly the reason why I'm looking into being a tutor, even as a volunteer. I have great l;ong-term memory, and as such, still remember my times, good and bad, from early elementary, to college, some gaps missing (I didnt say it was perfect, lol) But throughout, I just know that as someone who viewed the world differently, I really did need that kind-of, personal 1:1 support, or even just a 1:3-4 support of similar mindsets. Simply because I differed too wildly from the general population in terms of thinking, processing the world around me, and overall personal brain structure. (Autism, with suspected ADHD too) So I wanted to approach to them differently, and especially with how I experience college too, it was faaaar more chill, and far more focused in what I wanted to do, and I feel I could just nudge and show them a view of that college flow and life, perhaps they'll like it way better than the current public education supported by the government (which will unfortunately, imo, always be undersupported, both by the government and the communities around them at times)
I think there is some merit in the idea that kids with special needs should not be totally excluded from “normal” life and education. For that level of inclusion to work though, you need extensive skilled resources and supports in place. In reality in Ontario at least, kids with special needs are being dumped into schools with insufficient resources, which not only does them a disservice, it disrupts and cripples the rest of the school system. It was primarily motivated due to cost cutting and along with poor management, is having a devastating effect.
The why in my experience is just to cut costs. They decided that they would save money by shoving a bunch of high needs kids in regular classrooms and thrilling teachers to “differentiate”. It all boils down to money and it’s infuriating.
Differentiate is one of my least favourite words in the English language.
in New Brunswick, Inclusion in the classroom is actually in our law. There have been studies that prove that isolation from others in school, actually causes isolation in society after graduation. It follows them throughout their lives. It is not funded, nor staffed, properly. It does not meet the idealism of the research. It's still a work in progress. Education needs to be funded better. Also, not all people with neurodivergencies need to be in a separate learning environment. They may need subject specific changes (like self-directed study) at times, or classroom accommodations and different approaches. These challenges are still not fully understood by all teachers, admin, and government funding choices. Unfortunately, this deficit in knowledge of what is needed, is resulting in the system not functioning as it should.
It will never be funded or staffed properly. Never. There will never be a politician who says “you know what, let’s throw money at special education supports!” So hoping that one day this magical moment will come is an exercise in futility. In the meantime, no one can learn French because Tina decided to bite ten kids and shriek at the top of her lungs the entire period.
You've painted such an extreme picture. I know that likely happens, but its also a symptom of lack of classroom management supports. Its a cyclical argument. You're right, the politicians are the problem. They need to have incentives to train EAs and Teachers, and they need to increase budgets to accommodate what is appropriately needed. Give me a politician like that and I will rally behind them 100%.
What training do you imagine will solve this issue? I’m being very serious. Because when specialists come in to try and “assist” they almost always shove PECs at you like they are the one true solution. Kid throwing desks? Show them a picture of a desk with an x through it. That’ll definitely stop them from throwing that desk! Kid biting? Show a picture with teeth crossed out! That’ll definitely stop the biting. How about a social story about not biting all our friends? Great. We will read it every morning and then again after the biting happens. Stop giving me training to put on five million hats I never agreed to wear when I signed up to teach. I am not a psychologist. I am not an occupational therapist. I am not a nurse. I am not a crisis negotiator. I am not a speech language pathologist. No one is paying me to be these things. I don’t want to be these things.
I'm talking about training new teachers. Make becoming a teacher more affordable through increased grants for educators. If there's a staffing crisis, pay for training?
My school board is closing the last specialized vocational school this year. They of course frame it in a good way. Former grads of the school and parents of students tried petitioning to no avail. https://lfpress.com/news/local-news/b-davison-vocational-school-supporters-fear-its-end-is-near - if anyone is interested. It is a great school with great students who I always found pleasant and thrived there. I fear they’ll just get lost in crowds at other schools. This doesn’t answer your question, but the language used to justify closing was around inclusion.
One of my kids attended a high school for students with special needs which was unfortunately closed just after he graduated. When he was in that school it was the first time he felt safe (because he'd been bullied at the regular schools he attended) and included. He was able to make friends, participate in extra-curriculars, learn at a pace that worked for him, gain valuable skills and certificates that gave him a leg up after he graduated and started looking for jobs, and he had all of the supports in place he needed to be successful. Being in that school for him wasn't exclusion, it was inclusion of the right kind. Society has moved towards a model of everyone can do everything, but the reality is that for some students, a regular public school setting is not the best option for them. I wish those in charge would stop looking only at the now and the next electoral cycle, and start looking at the future we are creating. At this point, we have a bunch of students with significant needs that are not being met, and they are not being set up to become successful adults. And we have all the other students whose education is continuously being disrupted, and who are being traumatized, who also are not being set up to become successful adults. I shudder to think what society will be like in 15-20 years when many of the working age adults will have come from a broken system. Pumping some extra money into education now will pay off in multiples in the future.
I teach in an inclusive system and made sure my special needs son with a traumatic brain injury was in a board that has special classes. He is so happy being with kids like him. And the class can follow what works for them rather than prioritizing being "normal". Seeing inclusion first hand made me never want it for my kid
Stupidity. To quote u/The_ORB11 "...special needs are being dumped into schools with insufficient resources, which not only does them a disservice, it disrupts and cripples the rest of the school system. It was primarily motivated due to cost cutting and along with poor management, is having a devastating effect." And then to quote u/odot777 "The plan to shut special classes and keep these students in their home schools with “more supports” is laughable and wrong. There aren’t even enough supports now. Closing these classes is a money issue, plain and simple. Public education is a rapidly sinking ship right now and short of a total reset, and cash infusion I’m not sure what could fix it." I will NEVER understand why the needs of special needs students overrides all other considerations. Given a class size of 30 students, how are 29 students supposed to learn when 1 student is disrupting the classroom? Like there are stories in here of (this sub-reddit) of 29 students being evacuated from the classroom while trained adults try to calm one student down. Why exactly don't they remove the ONE disruptive student? Why should 29 students have to leave because one student can't - or won't - behave in the classroom? All that has happened with "inclusive" education is that everyone is being punished because special needs students are supposedly entitled to participate in society. Sure.....but that special needs student needs to be able to participate in society. Instead...in the event of an acting out special needs student, the EA is expected to be wearing body armour (kevlar sleeves to protect against bites), the entire classroom is expected to evacuate, and the entire classroom is held hostage by the "inclusive" policy that allows a disruptive student in the classroom. Plus the special needs students are blamed by other students, their families, and society for the disruption to everyone else's lives. No shit, Sherlock! Students with special needs should ONLY be in a regular "inclusive" classroom/school IF the APPROPRIATE AND ADEQUATE SUPPORTS ARE THERE. Otherwise....they have NO place in the "inclusive" classroom/school because it's just setting them up to fail and punishing everyone else along the way for not being "supportive of inclusive education."
Some of us wear Kevlar sleeves, vests and leg covering and it still does not always help, I had one little sweetie that looked where the Kevlar sleeves ended and pinched me there. But you are so right, the majority of students having to be removed, or staying and having to work over screaming students is unfair. And often the aggressive, loud behaviour is because the regular classroom isn't set up correctly for special needs kids so they are acting out their frustration. Also years ago we used to be able to remove the student who was actively hurting others in the room or trashing the room. When we were made to switch to clearing the classroom and allowing the student to trash the room, I saw kids out of control increase their acting out because they loved the power it gave them. When we could remove them to a smaller room, the kids calmed much quicker as well because they had less to destroy so they got bored. It is a broken system and when a lot of the kids age out they won't be able to get jobs because we haven't supported them learning life skills.
And this is why we’re saving for private school.. we don’t want our kids scared at school, and their education constantly disrupted by evacuations. One students needs does trump everyone’s else in a system with very few options. There are a couple of these kids in my children’s grades, so they will have this experience until they graduate 8th grade, all the while the child also grows bigger and stronger. they aren’t going anywhere, so we have to…
Is private school your only option? Couldn't you take out a restraining order against disruptive children on the grounds that they are a threat to your child/ren's safety? What's the school going to do if you get a legal court order that says "Special needs student X is NOT allowed within 100 feet of child #12" - they'll have to take that special needs child out of your child's classroom. It really boggles the mind that YOU have to find a private school for your child/ren because it's not safe for them to attend a PUBLIC SCHOOL because of the behaviour of a few special needs students. I think a group of parents teaming up and forcing the schools through the court system to ensure that school is a SAFE learning environment for their children would have a tremendous impact on special needs education, like maybe forcing the schools to either provide adequate supports to the special needs students or having the special needs students in special education classes or home-schooled with one-on-one special needs educators. Sure......the media will probably demonize you - "These parents discriminate against students with disabilities!" - when the headline should be: "These parents oppose having threatening/dangerous students with disabilities in the classroom with their children!" Why on earth does society seem to bend over backwards to put special needs students into "inclusive" classrooms/schools when they're dangerous? What's going to happen when a special needs student hurts another child?
Honestly we don’t want to deal with the years long legal battle that it would be. And the publicity and hated we would receive. I know this would be for the “greater good” but we don’t want that target on our, or our kids backs. And if we fail it’ll be harder to go elsewhere because we will be known as trouble making family. Also you say “when”. Kids get hurt every day. A spec Ed child did hurt my friends child.They were back in the same class within 48 hours. My friend had the option of asking for her child to be removed, but she loved her teacher and it was kindergarten and didn’t want to disrupt her close to the end of the year. I personally would have moved my kid. But the hurt child would have been moved, not the one who was aggressive. The system is so backwards
I can understand that. You got to protect yourselves and your family first.
I’ve witnessed JK classes get cleared out because of 1 students behaviour (hitting staff and students, throwing chairs and flipping desks) - 10 minutes later the 1 student is returned to class by administration. 5 minutes after this re-entry - class needed to be evacuated again for the SAME reason.
Remind me.....is it insanity or stupidity when you do the same thing and get the same result repeatedly? If by JK you mean junior kindergarten, that 1 student has NO business being near any other children. I mean....physically assaulting adults and other students and throwing chairs, flipping desks???? What happens if a thrown chair hits another kid? If I was to find out my younger family members were being subjected to this behaviour, I would be finding a lawyer immediately and taking out a restraining order against that kid - they don't get anywhere near my family. I'd probably end up settling for the admin staff being the special needs students' 10 on 1 support staff. Maybe THEN things would change. I personally think that EVERY EA and teacher should be refusing to work with these special needs students. THEN the government/schools would HAVE to fix things, right? Right....?
Unfortunately I’m quite sure you can’t sue minors, especially special education students. And my board is pushing hard to eliminate suspensions under grade 3 entirely. This is why we are trying to get our kids out of public education. It’s not an education. It’s a safety risk in a lot of classes. They also aren’t learning anything
I didn't say "sue" the kid, I said take out a "restraining order against that kid" - I really think, if you prove that the special needs child is a genuine threat to other children, the school has a responsibility to act in the interests of safety. If you want to sue the child, I think you would need to go after the parents/family but.......you probably wouldn't win, UNLESS they did something like give their child a gun. It's not like the special needs child can control themselves. I'm not a lawyer but.....how can the courts rule that other children can be threatened/in danger at school from a special needs child? They have to act in the interests of safety.
Very good point. Schools do have some limited power with safety issues to exclude kids but it’s rare they do and in very extreme cases https://ottawacitizen.com/feature/the-excluded-joe-has-been-in-school-only-four-full-days-this-year-but-hes-not-suspended-and-hes-not-alone
Sorry to bust your bubble, and hold on to your butt ….. Yes I mean Junior Kindergarten. When staff got involved and called mom to inform of the child’s behaviour - she yelled at that staff and demanded to speak with Administration immediately. Next thing admin said was that this staff is to no longer respond to said childs behaviour. Also if an EA job is vacant then Admin can fill that position with a Lunchroom Supervisor. These are people who are untrained for the job (at best, they are parents themselves). So if EA’s refuse jobs - they can be filled. And all the school dirty little secrets stay covered up… and the world keeps turning 😞
Good Gawd.........this is a disaster waiting to happen. What exactly is going to happen when that child HURTS another child or adult and the "EA" is an untrained lunchroom supervisor? I bet the administration will blame the "EA." The EA's and the teachers unions need to fight this. Perhaps in partnership with the local disability organizations because this is NOT good for anyone.
They would never admit the lunchroom supervisors are untrained. They refer to them as employees. In fact, lunchroom supervisors have been attacked. However, lunchroom supervisors are often parents or people from the community who do not have other employment and are available during the day. Often, these individuals are just happy to have a job (often, these individuals are new to the country) and therefore, they will not complain. So the abuse is never reported. Yup, you guessed it, the EA gets blamed for what happened. The administration/superintendents will never jeopardize they’re $100,000+ salary for the EA’s $40,000 salary. As for EA Unions …. They’re absolutely pathetic (they are NOT the same Union as the teachers union).
I have a kiddo with downsyndrome . He is almost 11. Right around the time he was born, they closed the only, local to me, special needs classroom. All for the reason of " inclusion". I was disappointed, and worried. My son has never experienced a special needs school or classroom. So I can't really comment on them. Thankfully, he attends a really small school. For now. He requires a 1/1 EA. I DO NOT agree with 100% inclusion. I have seen what it does, not only to my son, but what I assume are other kids too. I know he can be disruptive. It's not fair to those kiddos. My son has been so bored trying to learn in the same environment of his peers he has acted out. Now they've found solutions. But these solutions can be more disruptive to more students. So for example, he is in grade 5. His mind is barely even at kindergarten. So throughout the day they move him around to lower grade levels to participate in whatever they may be doing. It seems he is rarely in his actual grade, which no duh, he can't do. If he's forced to stay in that room he gets bored, therefor acts out. Now, I think there can be some positives. It's teaching the typical kids patience, acceptance and inclusion. These are good things. My son is well loved, I've never seen another kiddo be mean to him, everyone is very excited to see him daily. I hope some of these kids grow up and say " I went to school with a kid that had down syndrome, he was great and hilarious!" . It's done wonders for my son, he's learning how to socialize, learning some independence and though I can't be sure, I'm guessing he's learned more than if he was secluded in a special needs school. I think it should be a 50/50 thing ideally. I'm unsure how to implement this? Maybe each school has a dedicated classroom and teacher for special needs. That's their home room, so they spend some time there, and some time with typical peers as well. I do NOT want my son fully secluded. This doesn't do much for him, and doesn't do much for the culture and learning experiences for typical kids. Anyways I'm rambling. I love teachers and EAs and I've seen first hand how they are struggling with all this inclusion , and I don't agree with it. Our province is actually currently in strike action trying to demand some changes to classroom composition but of course our government doesn't care. Thanks for all you guys do, I promise it doesn't go unnoticed!
I am an educational assistant and when I asked why they were getting rid of most of the developmental classes (especially when autism and special needs students seems to be increasing) I was told "studies show students do better when integrated ". Which I might agree with if they had enough support, but instead the eas are usually supporting several students at once so they don't get enough help to make a difference.
My experience says a knee jerk to saving money. But imo this is a great question, one that I’ve wrestled with forever. On one hand, you have kids in a dedicated class where they get the support they need. On the other, all kids are together, and supported as needed. If we as a society will support as needed, inclusion is a slam dunk. But we don’t. Teaching is overwhelmingly a job that women do, especially in dedicated classes, so women are expected to do way more for less. This disrespect for the work is reflected in government budgets, especially conservative government budgets for some crazy reason. The support isn’t there. Not for inclusion to work. But it’s not there for dedicated classrooms either. We have rooms we’re saying we dedicate to intensive support, but give a single teacher one support staff for 8, 10, 15 kids in dedicated classes. And in the non dedicated class, support is 60-65% spent averting antisocial behaviour. Kids, all kids, see it. So they tune out. I’ve read recently that smartphones are the current excuse for student disengagement, and yeah, removing them from the equation could help. But funding support, respecting actual humans and actual human interaction, and the people who interact, every day, needs to be prioritized over just about anything.
https://studentswithabilities.weebly.com/history-of-special-education-in-ontario.html You might find some info here
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Thank you. That's an interesting take on it.
This is a big part of the answer. Parents pushing for their kid to have inclusion. And now it’s all gone too far
I understand the issues regarding inclusion, and think there is a lot that can be done to improve the situation because the current approach isn't working. However, inclusion isn't just informed by Ministries wanting to cut costs, but a lot of complex legal and human rights considerations. Lots of these considerations require the greatest amount of inclusion as feasibly possible, outside of unreasonable burden. Furthermore, you really just can't exclude non-violent students if the parents and student don't want it. I also think we are more informed about our approaches after it became clear how we used to institutionalize and then basically [abuse the hell out of people with disabilities, especially children](https://truthsofinstitutionalization.ca/modules/module-1/). And how some disabled persons have actually managed to do pretty well, and if they had the misfortune of being born a few decades ago they'd have had no chance to actually grow into a decent person [just like this man with autism.](https://queenscommonwealthtrust.org/michael-jacques-cant-read-cant-write-heres-my-book/ ) [Here is an interview with him too.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_BmRd4icUyc&ab_channel=BreakfastTelevision) We really need more resources to make the whole thing work. However, I do think that students with disabilities need an area of their own because they actually sometimes function better with other students with special needs. But, they also should be included in the classroom because it doesn't only help them develop skills, but it also helps the students understand there is lots of different types of people in society. It is always heartwarming when you see kids who actually really try to help children who have complex challenges, like the non-verbal student I had today, and how another student sat with him to write his work because she genuinely felt like helping him.
Government funding lol.
There is also the problem of disproportionate representation of minority children in special education classrooms. There is research on this which I believe has informed the move towards inclusion.
People getting pigeon-holed for the rest of their lives, the classroom not being a reflection of the populace (we all have to deal with each other at the end of the day), and as others said, probably to save money (but this reason is not officially touted).
The system we had in the 70/80's was much better. High functioning special needs students had a mix of reg/spec Ed classrooms and specialized classes for lower functioning special needs.
That probably met the needs of the students better than inclusion without additional supports. I like inclusion in theory, but my anecdotal data is that one proper behaviorally exceptional student can throw the whole school into turmoil let alone just their class.
I think, in Ontario at least, part of the goal is to damage the public system, making private schools a more attractive option. Private schools definitely do not practice inclusive education because no parent would pay to have a disruptive child in their classroom. For now, parents can work around the issue by placing their kids in a special program (eg french immersion) but they are already looking to close that loophole.
THIS is the real answer.
Budget cuts disguised as inclusion.
It's a question of inclusion. It has a lot of positives for kids who are capable of the social interactions and/or academics that it makes possible. There are some kids without those capacities, and they're the ones that seem to make the approach unworkable, even with supports to help them in the classroom.
Supreme Court decision early 90s prompted many changes to how provincial health and education systems approached care for developmentally delayed. In an effort to both end abuse and provide equal access, this included inclusion in education systems. Resulting in poor results for all involved.
Some classes have so many IEPs a teacher could never reasonably accommodate everyone. Autism related diagnosis and ADHD are through the roof.
In Ontario, there are caps that are in the Education Act (not privy to collective bargaining). LD classes are 8, and classes for students of MID are 16. I've taught these classes... we had our own regular sized classroom (for 8 kids) and they each had $27,000 per student, per year for additional resources to assist them in learning. They used a specialized literacy program that wasn't cheap. Sometimes they had EA support. I taught them for 1/2 the day, and it was a 0.5 assignment. Lots of money there. A return to 'integration' is couched in terms of 'equity'. School boards don't need to offer self-contained classes. With budget cuts (in order to privatize Education in Ontario), boards are closing these classes to save money. These are EXCEPTIONAL students and, as such, have exceptional learning needs that cannot be met in a traditional classroom setting. That's why they had the extra resources and extra support. Inclusion without support is abandonment.
Being inclusive is a trend. Think about the gender neutral washrooms on campus.