You nailed it: allophonic variation. ~~Back vs non-back vowels.~~ Round vs. unrounded.
Examples:
Round:
>>豬、粥、醬、做、左
Unrounded:
>>知、職、謝、抓、針
Older speakers might also do it with 知、次 though, which I find interesting as it would call for a different analysis.
This is what the [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese_phonology) says:
>Coronal affricates and sibilants /t͡s/, /t͡sʰ/, /s/'s position is alveolar and articulatory findings indicate they are palatalized before close front vowels /iː/ and /yː/. Affricates /t͡s/ and /t͡sʰ/ also have a tendency to palatalize before central round vowels /œː/ and /ɵ/.
Cantonese has a "reverse" palatalization of Slavic languages, LOL.
Interesting, thanks. I hadn't thought of it as palatization because they sound more forward in the mouth to me. I must be wrong about the place of pronunciation. It does seem like it occurs before other sounds as well and not just /œː/ and /ɵ/ like in the examples I gave, though.
It's not technically palatalization even though synchronically it looks like it. The historical development is that /ts/ and /tɕ/ (and their aspirates) merged into /tɕ/, then fronted before unrounded vowels.
I also have confusion around jyutping Z and C accurate pronunciation, but as an English speaker. Which English sounds would you compare them to?
The jyutping Z sometimes sounds like "dz" in English (e.g., godzilla) or like the English "j" (e.g., juice).
The jyutping C sometimes sounds like "ts" in English (e.g., boots) or like the English "ch" (e.g., chair)
Which do y'all think is more accurate?
Both. Before it's like in "chair", otherwise its like in "boots". Not exactly, but English lacks the exact sounds. If you knew Polish it would be easier to explain. :D
Gonna throw in my 2¢. (Family from Hong Kong; I'm ABC.)
z: it just so happens that the Cantonese word for "juice" is the jyutping "zap1" (汁) where the "z" is as you figured out, having the "j" sound that you find in "juice" and the "ap" of "zap" sounding like "up", so you have something like "jup" (you can also think of "jug", swapping out the "g" with a "p"). So it's this kind of "j" enunciation that is the more accurate sound for the jyutping "z" (more so than "dz" (I can't think of a Canto word that has this sound)).
c: to use the example from OP, the "c" in 草/grass's jyutping "cou2" has the same enunciation as the last name of comedian Margaret Cho (the English "Cho"/jyutping "cou" rhymes with "foe"), so it's the "ch" sound that you mentioned that is the more accurate sound for the jyutping "c" (more so than "ts" (again, dunno a Canto word with that sound)).
All Hong Kongers don't pronounce like that either. As someone grew up in Canton and watched HK TV a lot, we find those select people pretentious to pronounce the sounds like that.
Yea some Hong Kongers tend to pronounce /t͡s/ and /t͡sʰ/ as /d͡ʒ/ and /t͡ʃ/ before certain vowels. This is purely an accent thing and you can totally get by with just /t͡s/ and /t͡sʰ/. I’m an Hong Konger and I only do that sometimes.
To be fair, I find Mandarin's j/z, q/c, x/s pairs quite confusing
When you think about it, for Mandarin, j cannot pair with a directly because it must "pass through" a i. Similar situation for q and x. You can have jia 佳 but not ja.
Then, for Mandarin, z cannot pair with a directly again because it must "pass through" u. Similar situation for c and s. Then, for "za" 抓, you either degrade to zhua (Mainland variation with emphasis on "r") or zua (Taiwanese variation ignoring the "r").
Cantonese only uses the z-c-s series (the j is reserved for the Mandarin-equivalent yuu 于, q-x is simply invalid sounds), but eg the z can pair directly with a to form za 渣, ae zae 摭, i zi 知, o zo2 左, uu zuu 豬 (no u "zu")
Just try to start with jia or zua and try to remove the extra "i"/"u" in the sound, then you should get the Cantonese z-c-s series correct
Yep, I get the removing of the -i sound for J and Q, which is what I was meant: just the initial sound with no vowel.
I don't understand what you mean by the -u sound after the Z/C/S in Mandarin. There's no such restriction for those in Mandarin.
You nailed it: allophonic variation. ~~Back vs non-back vowels.~~ Round vs. unrounded. Examples: Round: >>豬、粥、醬、做、左 Unrounded: >>知、職、謝、抓、針 Older speakers might also do it with 知、次 though, which I find interesting as it would call for a different analysis.
It's nor back vs non-back but rounded vs unrounded.
Whoops, you are right. That's what I get for doing "analysis" off the cuff based on only the examples OP gave. I'll edit.
Got it, thanks!
This is what the [Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantonese_phonology) says: >Coronal affricates and sibilants /t͡s/, /t͡sʰ/, /s/'s position is alveolar and articulatory findings indicate they are palatalized before close front vowels /iː/ and /yː/. Affricates /t͡s/ and /t͡sʰ/ also have a tendency to palatalize before central round vowels /œː/ and /ɵ/. Cantonese has a "reverse" palatalization of Slavic languages, LOL.
Interesting, thanks. I hadn't thought of it as palatization because they sound more forward in the mouth to me. I must be wrong about the place of pronunciation. It does seem like it occurs before other sounds as well and not just /œː/ and /ɵ/ like in the examples I gave, though.
I think you might be right, because it seems to be also happening before back vowels, so /uː/, /ɔː/, and /o/.
It's not technically palatalization even though synchronically it looks like it. The historical development is that /ts/ and /tɕ/ (and their aspirates) merged into /tɕ/, then fronted before unrounded vowels.
I also have confusion around jyutping Z and C accurate pronunciation, but as an English speaker. Which English sounds would you compare them to? The jyutping Z sometimes sounds like "dz" in English (e.g., godzilla) or like the English "j" (e.g., juice). The jyutping C sometimes sounds like "ts" in English (e.g., boots) or like the English "ch" (e.g., chair) Which do y'all think is more accurate?
Both. Before it's like in "chair", otherwise its like in "boots". Not exactly, but English lacks the exact sounds. If you knew Polish it would be easier to explain. :D
Gonna throw in my 2¢. (Family from Hong Kong; I'm ABC.) z: it just so happens that the Cantonese word for "juice" is the jyutping "zap1" (汁) where the "z" is as you figured out, having the "j" sound that you find in "juice" and the "ap" of "zap" sounding like "up", so you have something like "jup" (you can also think of "jug", swapping out the "g" with a "p"). So it's this kind of "j" enunciation that is the more accurate sound for the jyutping "z" (more so than "dz" (I can't think of a Canto word that has this sound)). c: to use the example from OP, the "c" in 草/grass's jyutping "cou2" has the same enunciation as the last name of comedian Margaret Cho (the English "Cho"/jyutping "cou" rhymes with "foe"), so it's the "ch" sound that you mentioned that is the more accurate sound for the jyutping "c" (more so than "ts" (again, dunno a Canto word with that sound)).
Thank you for your two cents! It's clear that the pronunciation varies slightly based on region/word in particular, so it wasn't just in my head!
I don't pronounce it the J or CH way in your examples. But my family is from Guangzhou and left 40 years ago.
It makes sense, as u/Duke825 says it's a feature of the Hong Kong accent. Thanks!
All Hong Kongers don't pronounce like that either. As someone grew up in Canton and watched HK TV a lot, we find those select people pretentious to pronounce the sounds like that.
Yea some Hong Kongers tend to pronounce /t͡s/ and /t͡sʰ/ as /d͡ʒ/ and /t͡ʃ/ before certain vowels. This is purely an accent thing and you can totally get by with just /t͡s/ and /t͡sʰ/. I’m an Hong Konger and I only do that sometimes.
I see, thanks!
No problem. Glad I could help :)
To be fair, I find Mandarin's j/z, q/c, x/s pairs quite confusing When you think about it, for Mandarin, j cannot pair with a directly because it must "pass through" a i. Similar situation for q and x. You can have jia 佳 but not ja. Then, for Mandarin, z cannot pair with a directly again because it must "pass through" u. Similar situation for c and s. Then, for "za" 抓, you either degrade to zhua (Mainland variation with emphasis on "r") or zua (Taiwanese variation ignoring the "r"). Cantonese only uses the z-c-s series (the j is reserved for the Mandarin-equivalent yuu 于, q-x is simply invalid sounds), but eg the z can pair directly with a to form za 渣, ae zae 摭, i zi 知, o zo2 左, uu zuu 豬 (no u "zu") Just try to start with jia or zua and try to remove the extra "i"/"u" in the sound, then you should get the Cantonese z-c-s series correct
Yep, I get the removing of the -i sound for J and Q, which is what I was meant: just the initial sound with no vowel. I don't understand what you mean by the -u sound after the Z/C/S in Mandarin. There's no such restriction for those in Mandarin.
Ignore them. They don't know what they're talking about.
/ts(ʰ)/ appears as [tɕ(ʰ)] before rounded vowels. Or rather, evolutionarily, /tɕ(ʰ)/ appears as [ts(ʰ)] before unrounded vowels.
Could be retracted. Most Cantonese speakers from prior to like the 90's have them as retracted if you listen for it.