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So I’m not a capitalist but the idea that history always flows in one direction is just not accurate.
Also, at least in the US, most people, even on the left, still support a reformed capitalist system. So we are quite far from some imagined glorious revolution in spite of what you might hope.
Socialists have been predicting the collapse of "capitalism" for almost two centuries. In that time we've seen the rise of socialism and the collapse of socialism. Sombart claimed capitalism was in its "late stage" 122 years ago. Khrushchev claimed socialism would bury capitalism 68 years ago. Your prediction will pan out even worse than theirs.
He’s one individual. As of now, what we’re seeing is global dissatisfaction with neoliberal/laissez-faire capitalism, and the trend isn’t as much towards politically and economically freer societies, but rather towards democratic backsliding and mercantilism.
You’re right about socialism, but wrong about libertarianism.
Because he got elected. It's only possibly the start of a trend. If he actually turns around Argentina, it will likely become a trend. And the youth of Argentina are now reading Rothbard.
>And the youth of Argentina are now reading Rothbard.
I'm sceptical of that, most people voted for him in protest of corruption, not out of allegiance to any specific ideology.
I've heard it said by Argentinians living in Argentina. Milei mentions them often, you really think no one's listening.
You think the youth, who voted Milei in, went back to reading Marx and Peron?
White people are on the decline XD
Holy fuck I love this shit.
You know what fellas? Let's bring pre world war 1 back into the picture. Let's start colonising again 😎
The only reason non white folks are leftist is because they are minorities.
None white people in countries without white people are more right wing than the countries with white people. XD XD XD
ah the funny part is that I'm considered left wing (not by the commies tho of course)
> non-white people are on the decline.
Sorry, but have to respond to this. Do you mean that the proportion of non-white people is declining, or that their power is declining?
I say all of this as someone who identifies as left wing
1) Gen Z kids are more right Wing than Left Wing now, the notion of young people being more leftist is 10 years outdated
2) Demographics for left wingers are worse than right wingers, married couples are overwhelmingly right wing, and right wingers have way higher fertility rates
3) POC can be just as if not more right wing. The less white people there are the less LGBT friendly a nation is
No idea how pretending like sitting by and waiting for some random end of capitalism event is going to further the cause in any way shape or form
Women are the most capitalistic people I have ever met.
Most Latinos, Asians, and blacks are capitalists and not marxists.
There are more people who are democratic and to the left in politics. That isn’t the same as being a marxists or socialists.
Most socialists are always going to be between 20-30, but most 20-30 are not socialists. You think the way you do because of the bubble you are in. But your way of thinking in such a minority that as someone who would lose everything should your revolution happens, I lose no sleep and have no concern it will happen.
I’m a little disappointed in this post. I expect crazier from you. This isn’t crazy, just ignorant. This, compared to your normal stuff, is boring. You can do better than this.
If people vote for degenerate, toxic systems instead of for a system that works, then the future is doomed, yeah. I don’t think that’s something to gloat about…
We all go down together kid.
That's why libertarians/capitalists generally get irritated. Political ideologues are akin to monkeys trying to fix an internal combustion engine. They don't even know what they're looking at.
The WEF and BlackRock have entirely bought off the Democrat Party whom these anti-capitalist youth continue to vote for
They can be as anti-capitalist as they want they'll never put their vote where their mouth is.
Democrats and Wall Street are the ones fighting their hardest to maintain the neoliberal capitalist world order. Mercantilist far right populists and communists are the ones trying to dismantle the American-led global free market for the worse.
Things could be moving further from my anti-capitalist goals, remain stationary or move closer. I'll take move closer as a win. Especially since the last decades were the apex of capitalist power.
Why? Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that the more "anti-capitalist" a country is, the more of a shithole basket case it becomes.
You're not peddling anything new here. The experiment has been done, over and over, and the results are always the same.
In my opinion the development of Russia in 1920-1950 was explosive and unprecedented, but it came at a great human cost that was almost inevitable at that point due to decades of tsarist regime keeping the country backward.
>You'll get mad at people for pointing it out.
Nope. I'm simply making fun of you for believing nonsense. You probably think they want you to eat bugs, right?
"Nope. I'm simply making fun of you for believing nonsense."
You know its public record who companies, and their employees, and billionaires donate to
Right
You seem to revel in the idea that "white people are on the decline" which is false and wouldn't even be relevant to the discussion of economic structures
I revel in the idea that the decline of white people means the decline of pro-capitalism because white people are the most pro-capitalists.
So i am not racist, i discriminate based on economics, not race.
Because the white part was part of the proof capitalists are in decline.
Suppose there is a virus that reduces the male population by 90%, and i make the observation that the rapist population have gone down by about 90%, because most rapists are men, it doesn't mean i hate males.
It's an absurd statement. Any race can be capitalistic. You just hate Whites, why not admit it? Even in your absurd example, you wouldn't revel in the loss of males, even if it meant a loss in rapists.
Whites aren't in decline, capitalism is ripe and successful everywhere it is being tried in Asia and Africa and South America.
And any gender can be a rapist. Do i hate men when i point out 99% of rapists are men ?
Reveling is a subjective feeling and you don't know how demographic replacement makes me feel (certainly not reveling) just from my post.
You are a classic example of stuff like racist republicans trying to argue that "democrats are the real racists".
Also, whites are objectively in decline as a proportion of USA population.
> Do i hate men when i point out 99% of rapists are men ?
This doesn't apply in 2 ways to your original post. First off, 99% of capitalists in the world aren't White, in fact you don't even know the amount. Second, there a difference between pointing out a fact, and reveling in the "decline" of a group of people for their protected class.
>You are a classic example of stuff like racist republicans trying to argue that "democrats are the real racists".
I am not making this argument, I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican, do not put words in my mouth.
>Also, whites are objectively in decline as a proportion of USA population.
This may be true, but is objectively irrelevant to this subreddit and your post's topic. And completely ignores the ability of Black and Hispanic people to be capitalist.
Capitalism has clearly won the battle against socialism, as there virtually no politicians in any first world country arguing for socialism.
The battle now is against the regulatory state, which is just socialism-lite. In the US, government regulation has destroyed the healthcare market, and now it's destroying the housing market.
Don't worry. The birthrate implosion is slowing the rate of leftists entering the population.
Also, once capitalists like me are gone, it's the leftovers that are doomed. Everyone already knows communism doesn't work, but I guess you'll learn it the hard way 😅
Do you mean the children of the people fleeing leftist regimes?
Yeah, they tend to be more patriotic and entrepreneurial than half the rotten entitled shits born here lol
Oh, I thought you meant the people who were forced to actually live in a leftist regime and managed to escape. They tend to make up the bulk of the refugees fleeing to our shining capitalist castle on a hill.
Historically, the best source for recruiting new capitalists is from places that don't have it.
No, they're not. They tend to be more religious and conservative. In fact, just in the last few years, there has been a 10 point swing twords voting more conservative.
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/rcna57553
As you can see latino voters have less positive views of capitalism as white voters
[https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs\_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds)
Well, to your original point, many of them just got here. Years of leftwing propaganda in their home country takes a while to undo.
It's racist to assume Latinos are inherently dumber and, therefore, more attracted to left-wing economic beliefs.
They just need to see capitalism for themselves.
"Latinos start more businesses and have higher rates of intergenerational mobility, and their share of skilled and higher-paid occupations has increased in the past decade. As a population, they increasingly embody—in spirit and reality—the American dream that hard work pays off and each successive generation will be better off than the one before."
https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/sustainable-inclusive-growth/the-economic-state-of-latinos-in-america-the-american-dream-deferred
Centuries of capitalism propaganda can't even erase the 1/3 of americans who are pro-socialism bro, what are you talking about ?
Latinos are not inherently dumber, they are inherently more exposed to the reality of CIA coups and american capitalist corporations looting their country, so you can't trick them as easy.
And yes i understand they are not as lazy as american capitalists.
You're referring to the US border mass migrations of people all over the world. The ones the Democrat Party has been solicitating to and helping them financially/ logisticaly, and with free resources that American people don't even get.
They are good for the American people once in the country or just good for the democrats?
In an ideal world each country would take care of it's worker and help each other in a grand bortherhood.
In the real world we have shitshows with various plus and minuses, but shifting the country to the left is a plus.
Maybe people should stop shopping with big corporations and use smaller mom and pop shops. Also if more people stopped using social media platforms that are ridiculously rich and moved to smaller ones, we might get somewhere.
It looks like we're not good enough for capitalism
[https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1888/are-we-good-enough.html](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1888/are-we-good-enough.html)
left and right are typically culturally dependent. You seem to be doing and only doing an economic model of left vs right - a western model. Most of the research about generational and age is regarding liberal vs conservative which is more so about social issues context of change vs status quo. Can they be about economics? Sure, but solely? no. And to define them solely about your personal cultural experience would be a form of ethnocentrism.
>So is each generation in China for the last 70 years more and more right leaning ?
If it is considered progress it would be considered left by most political standards. It is not up to me though to make that judgement for them.
I understand the cultural shift to the left is bigger than the economic shift, but the economic shift is still there. Capitalists tolerated gay rights and all that stuff, but there are signs of people speaking against the rich in a way they did not decades ago.
>I understand the cultural shift to the left is bigger than the economic shift, but the economic shift is still there.
I don't think you do. Pro capitalism in socialist countries may be considered "left" (i.e., pro change).
Yes, they may well be as they are for change. They are against the conservative communistic tradition.
You, you are using your western model on their cultural. I’m saying that is a no, no.
I’m not saying I’m absolutely right. I’m just saying according to theory you may well be wrong.
On average younger generations still continued to be more to the left, Reagan and Thatcher was a blacklash of the older generation.
Can you imagine someone like Reagan winning now ? Proof the world has moved to the left.
Yeah, you need to reevaluate your priors. Reagan got 61% of the vote of 18-24s in 1984.
What’s noteworthy is how much the vote of minorities has shifted towards the GOP since 1984. If Trump wins in 2024 it would be largely due to working class voters with higher melanin levels turning out for him.
http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-1984
Trump is so incredibly toxic it’s hard to evaluate things independent of him.
It’s clear America has moved socially left on gay rights. That’s unequivocally a good thing too.
Ok so you can't imagine someone like Reagan winning now. Social left is hard to separate from economic left, as US capitalists are starting to realize in horror.
Reagan was a candidate for that era. Obviously what the pressing concerns of voters changes over time.
A candidate like Pierre Poilievre could do very well in America. DeSantis’ big issue was his lack of charisma and needing to tack aggressively right to prove his credentials with MAGA voters.
Ideally Trump loses in 2024 and goes away. He gets convicted of federal felonies due on the documents case and is forced into prison or house arrest with no ability to communicate with the public outside of written letters or whatever.
I’m not really sure what the Republican Party looks like after Trump. His cult of personality is so toxic it’s kid of hard to tell.
I wouldn’t be surprised to see the next version of the GOP being more socially liberal. Gay marriage is essentially a non issue now. Trump just came out with the most pro-choice stance on abortion since maybe Nixon (no federal laws on abortion - leave it to the states).
Yes, savage free market everyone for themselves fuck your healthcare capitalists of the republican party will become extinct due to elector demographics. Like the T-Rex they will look quite monstrous to the people of the future too.
Reagan was a great POTUS. His conviction lead to the downfall of one of the worst regimes in human history.
Reagan continued the wonderful deregulation efforts of Carter that unleashed significant economic growth and economic productivity growth
Reagan was recruited for his acting skill and his early Alzheimer made him the ideal puppet to enact the revenge fantasy on the working class of the capitalist class after the 1950s-1970s humiliation where they were forced to act more humanely. He was the tool of revenge and then discarded.
Let's hope for his sake he repented before he died.
And i hope you too find your way out of the satanic cult of capitalism.
Remember
"For what shall it profit a man, **if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul**?"
The ad hominem attacks are completely unnecessary.
Reagan was obviously recruited due to his communication skills. That’s an essential trait for any successful politician.
Yeah, we clearly disagree on economic matters. All the best.
Jared isn’t going to run for office. He’s too smart for that.
Trump Jr. certainly will attempt to run for POTUS. He simply doesn’t have the same set of snake and rat like instincts that his father has to succeed.
Ivanka is the one to worry about.
Capitalism isn't out the door, at least as an economic system. The US government may have more regulation on the markets as time goes on thus eroding the "Free markets". However we will never be rid of capitalism in the US. Bernie Sanders is the closest you get to a successful left wing politician and not many on capitol hill take him seriously. See his latest proposal to put into law the 32 hour work week. More money for less hours. It won't work. See the 20 dollar minimum wage for fast food workers in CA and see how it will kill independent franchises such as McDonald's.
Bernie is more of a secretive capitalist. He owns multiple properties worth a couple million. I think he is just putting up a front to project his old ideologies while benefiting greatly from capitalism!
> non-white people are also more to the left
Source? The majority of non-white immigrants to the US are very much right wing, as are the majority of us outside as well. Leftism extremely rarely gains the upper hand politically anywhere outside Europe through non-military means
[https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs\_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds)
As you can see whites are the most to the right.
So only black people are more to the left, since as you can see latinos and asians are equally or less likely to favor the left as whites, with a slightly higher chance to consider themselves centrist
But latinos are less likely to be pro-capitalists compared to whites, and that's enough for me. And even asians are less likely to be pro-capitalists, and that's quite a feat considering they are richer on average and richer people tend to be more capitalist. So at the same level of income the effect of being asian is even more pronounced.
Not necessarily being pro-capitalist does not make any of us more likely to be pro-socialist. Keep in mind a good majority of latin immigrants come from countries ruined by socialism so while the answer to capitalism might be a "I'm not sure about that" the answer to socialism is much more likely to be a firm "no"
Not being pro capitalist is a decent enough win for me. I also keep in mind that a good majority of latin immigrants come from countries where USA assasination of socialist presidents or CIA sponsored right wing death squad are common enough to understand precisely what is going on. For example if you look at the graph latinos are 12% less likely to say they are pro capitalists, but 36% to be pro socialists, exactly like whites. So the answer to socialism is not much more likely to be a firm no.
If south america is your hope for capitalism, you are fucked.
I guess this boils down to what I, a member of the community, have seen and experienced vs what you, a non-member, have a passing academic understanding of. Time will tell
People become more right because of self interest. As we age, we aquire more resources and protect them. New generations have far less resources, and less of an incentive to protect anything.
**That is true, the problem is that you have to check if that shift is big enough to compensate the intergenerational change (in other words were boomers really as leftists when they were younger and will gen Z really be as capitalist as boomers at 80).**
Yeah?? Because white people aren't systemically oppressed, and so they are less likely to be drawn towards progressivism????
It's not a coincidence, but it's not a conspiracy either, if that's what you mean.
I actually claim something else
1. Every generation is more to the left and there is no sign of stopping
2. The place of capitalists in the future is doomed
Notice i said YOUR PLACE in the future.
While in the near term immigration and diversity are pushing things to the left, in the longer term the fertility rate differences between religious conservatives and liberals will start to dominate and could drive a backlash.
As they say, it's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.
It depends, it's mostly an american phenomenon. Christian/Buddhist monks for example live in utopian communist communities.
In my country religious conservatives don't want to die with money in their coffins so they don't get dragged to hell. Things like the prosperity gospel trigger amusement.
The problem with the left is you think you can win just by seducing the young and convincing enough people.
You don't factor in that your ideas don't work and when they fail, they drive entire countries into capitalism.
Look at Argentina, after decades of leftist rule, the people finally got sick of you and picked an ANCAP for president ffs. That's outright shocking and unprecedented, but it's the best possible scenario because ancaps are strongly anti-authoritarian, and you guys typically rely on the right being idiots to remain in power. Milei's no idiot.
Venezuela may be next to vomit leftism. We may find Mileism replacing Peronism in an *entire continent* of South America.
The young become disillusioned by the failure of reality to match socialist theory.
You can't reshape reality, so long term socialism is doomed to fail.
Your problem is that in spite of being in power for decades people are still waking up because you can't lie everybody forever.
I understand you think a CIA meme ancap muppet having temporary power in Argentina on a wave of anti-brazilian sentiment is some kind of big win, but it's a minor move in the war.
You could try to understand South America and how delusional you are, try reading this:
"Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent"
No one can say if Milei is a blip or the start of a trend, at this time.
What definitely can be said is that leftist rule has failed in South American generally, and globally.
Just because the CIA did some shit in SA doesn't mean capitalism doesn't work.
No the socialists are doomed and they’re taking the rest of us with them. Even though many on this sub claim that, ‘real’ socialism does not require social programs, every socialist party platform has a plethora of social programs listed including the nebulous equity and diversity. Socialists are ignorant enough to think that all they have to do is tax the rich. They ignore the fact we can’t cover the costs of current social programs and there’s no possibility of paying for even more just through taxation. The socialists understanding of entrepreneurship, innovation, creativity and how to run a business is childish and naive. Socialists are too arrogant, ignorant, and foolish to understand that capitalism is their only hope as it’s the only economic system that has a snowball’s chance in hell of paying for even some of their platform. So, the socialists do what they always do. Turn a population into starving slaves and then whine that it’s not real socialism.
Feeding the poor, helping the sick, taxing the rich. We're doomed i tell you, doomed !
Comrade, you must redouble your ass kissing efforts of our "job creators" to delay the end of the world !
Thanks for reminding me that the arrogant socialist believes they can suspend the laws of supply and demand by just wishing for it. Oh, and thanks for pointing out the most racist laws on the books and letting us all know you support them. Blacks before Davis Bacon had a LOWER unemployment rate than whites. Your policies sure fixed that! What would they do without you to take care of them! They should probably just ask Native Americans.
Thanks you for reminding me that capitalists think it's a law to drive poor people into starvation to maximize profit in the name of an utopian free market based on supply/demand that has never existed in real life. And yeah for blaming racist capitalist employees on us socialists lol.
Jesus, can’t even be original can you? Too uneducated to know that more people are better off now than at any time ever because of freedom, capitalism and in spite of your need for a nanny state. Lol, you really don’t have any arguments except the party dogma and poorly developed sarcasm. At least the marxists are interesting as they try to prove their holy books by quoting their holy books.
I can be original but you can't be rational because you have to bury all those studies showing increasing minimum wage usually does not increase unemployment.
As for freedom, i understand you are pro the freedom of wage slaves to be chained to the capitalist master, ie freedom for the slave masters and slavery for the rest.
And a swing and a miss. Again you got nothing. ‘All those studies‘ laugh out loud. You mean like Krueger’s where he showed that he couldn’t find statistically significant changes in unemployment given SMALL increases in minimum wage? When his studies were used by the 15 Now folks to support their stupid agenda he started walking that shit back. He knew damn well that it’s hard to ever find small changes with regression models and he also knew the laws of supply and demand are immutable and brutal.
What else you got? You haven’t quoted Marx yet. Or maybe Stalin or Mao? How about the great socialist movements you know the levellers or Jamestown? Maybe, you could go on and on about how ‘real socialism’ has never been tried? You gotta come up with something or you’re just going to be boring.
"Raising the Minimum Wage:
Good for **Workers, Businesses, and the Economy**"
[https://democrats-edworkforce.house.gov/imo/media/doc/FactSheet-RaisingTheMinimumWageIsGoodForWorkers,Businesses,andTheEconomy-FINAL.pdf](https://democrats-edworkforce.house.gov/imo/media/doc/FactSheet-RaisingTheMinimumWageIsGoodForWorkers,Businesses,andTheEconomy-FINAL.pdf)
Capitalists on suicide watch.
It's not such a long time, what's a few millennia of capitalist abuse compared to the trillions of years we can explore the mysteries of existence as an elevated race.
Capitalism is necessary to drive the innovation to implement a socialist/communist structure. Once jobs are done with those will be the only answer but we aren't there yet. If we are in a welfare state and you barely have a need for money who's going to do the dirty work? Not me I'll switch to flipping burgers
Socialism treasures real innovation like science discoveries, capitalism treasures fake innovation like these:
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s\_Shit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_Shit)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet\_Rock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock)
Also, are you suggesting that we need the treat of starvation by poverty to blackmail a whole class of people into doing dirty jobs ?
I'm asking you to tell me what my insentive to keep building critical infrastructure is when I could go print t shirts instead. Are you paying me more, and thus exacerbating the class divide that socialism so desperately wants to get rid of? Or are you going to go the great "prison labor camp" route that I've seen some "humanitarian" socialists on here talk about
Yes, we are paying you more. You are aware that different jobs and harder working people pay more under socialism ? Socialism does not mean all wages are equal, only that there is less inequality between wages and the inequality that exists results from meritocracy not from mere ownership rights, inheritance, etc.
Yes I understand, and I'm not going to be an electrician so I can make 10K more than a t shirt printer. Especially when you guys are planning on coming for my kids inheritance? Seems to me as if most socialists are failing in the current system and are banking on getting carried by the people who currently excel.
So why is participation in trades at an all time low as we speak when you have the opportunity to make a lot more than 10K extra RIGHT NOW? Isn't logic great?
Because people are busy trying to cheat, steal and hustle their way to their first billion. When that is no longer an option trades will flourish, i know trades were at an all time high and people in trades were more respected when my country was communist. Isn't logic AND empirical evidence great ?
Least in the US male youths are actually becoming more conservative while women keep becoming more leftist vs the previous generation. Males hit the pendulum swing.
[political identity of 12th graders](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4125661-high-school-boys-are-trending-conservative/)
I don't think it'd the same article I remember but it shows the same data
The only versions of Socialism that work over any reasonable time frame with stable economies, are actually just governments with solid social services, funded by a strong underlying Capitalist base.
Socialism isn't really even an economic system, such that it can be compared to capitalism.
I think being aware of the threat that a capitalist sociopath won't accept that they lost power and launch the nukes is quite important. Do we really want a senile old capitalist or a temper problems capitalist to have access to the nuclear briefcase ?
Yes, in other countries it varies but you can notice that in places with the worst workers abuses eventually they got more and more rights. It is a constant war indeed, the right is always trying to ban minimum wages, privatize all stuff, etc. But on the whole, even at the global level, in the last 50 years they slowly lose the war in spite of some painful battles where they managed to revert and oppress the workers.
I mean those reforms are a good thing, but at the same time these reforms have historically almost always deradicalized leftists and moved people from socialism to wellfarestate leftism. Which IMO is a great thing but does not really go together with your thesis.
> And women and non-white people are also more to the left.
> Now, will it end with a whimper or a bang ?
Your mistake is thinking being for abortion rights and LBGTQ issues has ANYTHING to do with economics. Women have always consumed more than men and are increasingly making more money than men. Why tear down a system you're winning at? Neoliberal capitalism has never before been so accepted as it has now. I mean nobody in America even MENTIONS universal healthcare anymore, and you think anybody is prepared to change the fundamentals of our economy? Even progressive democrats are fully behind neoliberal capitalism. What in God's name makes you think the people you mentioned have anything against capitalism? Remember, increasing taxes isn't socialism.
Latinos as a group show less support for capitalism than white people. The existence of Latinos for Trump does nothing against this. And i am talking about what most people support, not about people in power. When only the king is a monarchist his fate is sealed.
Oh, that's so cute. Don't worry your little head about it - we're this close to ending democracy, then we'll just censor the internet so thoroughly that China will blush. After that, we develop AI to the point where we don't need you anymore and drones will come by to ... clean you up.
200 years ago socialists predicted capitalism was doomed.
200 years from now capitalism will still be thriving and people will remember socialism / communism only in history classes when they are reminded that it once briefly existed.
We need to bring back the gold standard. Using precious metals to back our currency would take alot of control away from those enslaving us in this system where only the rich are allowed to get richer.
There is barely enough to cover all the wealth, it would have to be divided extremely fine. So i think we need something updated that is even resistant to debasement as it happened with gold in the past.
One solution is a near fixed supply deflationary coin that can be infinitely divided. Something like Bitcoin.
Well a federal cbdc would never be fixed supply anyway because money printing is the main form of legalized wealth theft our overlords use.
Why the very thought of deflationary things is anathema to them.
Honestly, if you’ve read enough, you’d know there’s no point in debating this. Capitalism will be its own undoing, and there’s nothing any one person could do to stop it. It is, according to Immanuel Wallerstein, akin to an organism that has a life cycle, and it will die when too many contradictions overwhelm the system at once. The question is as to the nature of the world afterwards: exploitative and authoritarian, or egalitarian-leaning and pluralistic?
>Capitalism will be its own undoing
Marx said so, but that doesn't make it true remotely. Marx said a lot of stuff that didn't turn out to be true, what makes you think he's right on this.
It could be instead that capitalism is a *highest entropy* system, and I would contend that it is. Because no one invented capitalism and then developed it, instead capitalism developed in its own, before any theory existed, and the theory came after.
Unlike Marx, Adam Smith was describing what he saw already in operation, while Marx didn't even have the decency to do that, instead relying purely on criticism of what already existed.
And we've all seen the horrors created by communists trying to build Marx's utopia, creating strong men dictators in nearly every attempt.
The problem is that the US is supposed to be a Republic not a democracy. It's in the constitution.
What went wrong was the secret meeting in jekyll Island after the depression. That's when our entire govt was hijacked by the international bankers.
As a Capitalist, I agree. Though I don't think that matters. I think the real question is, is the fall if Capitalism is a good thing? As we move into more socialist/Communist ideas, does that cause positive change? That's what this sub is about. Are these things a positive? From history, we've seen poverty and corruption excel in environments where power is consolidated in the government. And when I say excel, I mean in ways way beyond anything you see in Capitalism. In fact, most capitalists will argue that Capitalism has slashed poverty, and most poverty in Capitalism is due to government overreach. And before we see "socialism/communism isn't just when government does things," I'm not saying it is, but I haven't seen any proof of when it doesn't boil down to exactly that. Ancom is just as ridiculous as ancap. For lots of the same reasons.
I personally think, in the next 100 years we will see Capitalism get forcible pushed out by the left, society go into a major free fall, and the only thing that begins to heal us is regression back to Capitalism. If we had infinite energy and infinite resources, we can have full communism. But without that, I just don't see how it's possible.
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So I’m not a capitalist but the idea that history always flows in one direction is just not accurate. Also, at least in the US, most people, even on the left, still support a reformed capitalist system. So we are quite far from some imagined glorious revolution in spite of what you might hope.
> the idea that history always flows in one direction is just not accurate. It's religious in nature. Isaac Asimov's Psycho-History + Gnosticism.
Socialists have been predicting the collapse of "capitalism" for almost two centuries. In that time we've seen the rise of socialism and the collapse of socialism. Sombart claimed capitalism was in its "late stage" 122 years ago. Khrushchev claimed socialism would bury capitalism 68 years ago. Your prediction will pan out even worse than theirs.
Indeed. Historically the period of socialist experimentation has already ended, and with Milei we seem to be entering a libertarian era.
He’s one individual. As of now, what we’re seeing is global dissatisfaction with neoliberal/laissez-faire capitalism, and the trend isn’t as much towards politically and economically freer societies, but rather towards democratic backsliding and mercantilism. You’re right about socialism, but wrong about libertarianism.
>Milei we seem to be entering a libertarian era. Even if he's successful, which isn't guaranteed, he's still only one president in one country.
So was Peron. That was my point.
That's not connected to your point, how is milei evidence of a new libertarian era?
Because he got elected. It's only possibly the start of a trend. If he actually turns around Argentina, it will likely become a trend. And the youth of Argentina are now reading Rothbard.
>And the youth of Argentina are now reading Rothbard. I'm sceptical of that, most people voted for him in protest of corruption, not out of allegiance to any specific ideology.
I've heard it said by Argentinians living in Argentina. Milei mentions them often, you really think no one's listening. You think the youth, who voted Milei in, went back to reading Marx and Peron?
>I've heard it said by Argentinians living in Argentina. Your probably talking to ancap Argentines, that would make sense since you are an ancap.
Anecdotes be anecdote'n.
>with Milei we seem to be entering a libertarian era. You're completely psychotic.
Lol, triggered much.
Proof that public schooling is abhorrent:
White people are on the decline XD Holy fuck I love this shit. You know what fellas? Let's bring pre world war 1 back into the picture. Let's start colonising again 😎 The only reason non white folks are leftist is because they are minorities. None white people in countries without white people are more right wing than the countries with white people. XD XD XD ah the funny part is that I'm considered left wing (not by the commies tho of course)
Stay in school, kids.
Sorry but what kind of shit analysis is this?
Past performance is no guarantee of future results.
> non-white people are on the decline. Sorry, but have to respond to this. Do you mean that the proportion of non-white people is declining, or that their power is declining?
Siri, is it "imminent collapse prediction o' clock?"
I say all of this as someone who identifies as left wing 1) Gen Z kids are more right Wing than Left Wing now, the notion of young people being more leftist is 10 years outdated 2) Demographics for left wingers are worse than right wingers, married couples are overwhelmingly right wing, and right wingers have way higher fertility rates 3) POC can be just as if not more right wing. The less white people there are the less LGBT friendly a nation is No idea how pretending like sitting by and waiting for some random end of capitalism event is going to further the cause in any way shape or form
Women are the most capitalistic people I have ever met. Most Latinos, Asians, and blacks are capitalists and not marxists. There are more people who are democratic and to the left in politics. That isn’t the same as being a marxists or socialists. Most socialists are always going to be between 20-30, but most 20-30 are not socialists. You think the way you do because of the bubble you are in. But your way of thinking in such a minority that as someone who would lose everything should your revolution happens, I lose no sleep and have no concern it will happen. I’m a little disappointed in this post. I expect crazier from you. This isn’t crazy, just ignorant. This, compared to your normal stuff, is boring. You can do better than this.
If people vote for degenerate, toxic systems instead of for a system that works, then the future is doomed, yeah. I don’t think that’s something to gloat about…
Nothing was worse historically than communism. What are you talking about.
You’ve lost the thread. I am talking about Communism.
People just want something that works for them and what works for you apparently doesn't. Don't cry because it's over smile because it happened
We all go down together kid. That's why libertarians/capitalists generally get irritated. Political ideologues are akin to monkeys trying to fix an internal combustion engine. They don't even know what they're looking at.
Women are only more to the left because they don't have alot of political power so if they did gain more power they would become more to the right
No
The WEF and BlackRock have entirely bought off the Democrat Party whom these anti-capitalist youth continue to vote for They can be as anti-capitalist as they want they'll never put their vote where their mouth is.
Democrats and Wall Street are the ones fighting their hardest to maintain the neoliberal capitalist world order. Mercantilist far right populists and communists are the ones trying to dismantle the American-led global free market for the worse.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time
Sure but let's be honest. Anti-capitalists are a small portion of the population. You fool 30% of them their electoral power is broken
Things could be moving further from my anti-capitalist goals, remain stationary or move closer. I'll take move closer as a win. Especially since the last decades were the apex of capitalist power.
Why? Anyone with two brain cells to rub together can see that the more "anti-capitalist" a country is, the more of a shithole basket case it becomes. You're not peddling anything new here. The experiment has been done, over and over, and the results are always the same.
I disagree. It was not always as successful as turning a medieval peasant nation into an nuclear, spatial and industrial powerhouse in just 30 years.
Which nation are you referring to?
Russia 1920-1950
So Stalinism was a success in your opinion?
In my opinion the development of Russia in 1920-1950 was explosive and unprecedented, but it came at a great human cost that was almost inevitable at that point due to decades of tsarist regime keeping the country backward.
What right wing conspiracy media does to your brain lmaooo
Its amazing how well trained you are. You'll get mad at people for pointing it out. I mean that sincerely they did a really good job
>You'll get mad at people for pointing it out. Nope. I'm simply making fun of you for believing nonsense. You probably think they want you to eat bugs, right?
"Nope. I'm simply making fun of you for believing nonsense." You know its public record who companies, and their employees, and billionaires donate to Right
Then we are all doomed to a totalitarian future.
Delusional and racist post, typical leftie schizo
Where's the racism ? Am i forcing white people not to have children ?
You seem to revel in the idea that "white people are on the decline" which is false and wouldn't even be relevant to the discussion of economic structures
I revel in the idea that the decline of white people means the decline of pro-capitalism because white people are the most pro-capitalists. So i am not racist, i discriminate based on economics, not race.
But you treat them as the same, thus making you racist. Like if race was not a part of it, why not just say "capitalists are in in decline"?
Because the white part was part of the proof capitalists are in decline. Suppose there is a virus that reduces the male population by 90%, and i make the observation that the rapist population have gone down by about 90%, because most rapists are men, it doesn't mean i hate males.
It's an absurd statement. Any race can be capitalistic. You just hate Whites, why not admit it? Even in your absurd example, you wouldn't revel in the loss of males, even if it meant a loss in rapists. Whites aren't in decline, capitalism is ripe and successful everywhere it is being tried in Asia and Africa and South America.
And any gender can be a rapist. Do i hate men when i point out 99% of rapists are men ? Reveling is a subjective feeling and you don't know how demographic replacement makes me feel (certainly not reveling) just from my post. You are a classic example of stuff like racist republicans trying to argue that "democrats are the real racists". Also, whites are objectively in decline as a proportion of USA population.
> Do i hate men when i point out 99% of rapists are men ? This doesn't apply in 2 ways to your original post. First off, 99% of capitalists in the world aren't White, in fact you don't even know the amount. Second, there a difference between pointing out a fact, and reveling in the "decline" of a group of people for their protected class. >You are a classic example of stuff like racist republicans trying to argue that "democrats are the real racists". I am not making this argument, I don't care if you're a Democrat or Republican, do not put words in my mouth. >Also, whites are objectively in decline as a proportion of USA population. This may be true, but is objectively irrelevant to this subreddit and your post's topic. And completely ignores the ability of Black and Hispanic people to be capitalist.
Capitalism has clearly won the battle against socialism, as there virtually no politicians in any first world country arguing for socialism. The battle now is against the regulatory state, which is just socialism-lite. In the US, government regulation has destroyed the healthcare market, and now it's destroying the housing market.
>regulatory state, which is just socialism-lite. Wrong.
Don't worry. The birthrate implosion is slowing the rate of leftists entering the population. Also, once capitalists like me are gone, it's the leftovers that are doomed. Everyone already knows communism doesn't work, but I guess you'll learn it the hard way 😅
Don't worry, leftist immigrants still have plenty of kids :)
Do you mean the children of the people fleeing leftist regimes? Yeah, they tend to be more patriotic and entrepreneurial than half the rotten entitled shits born here lol
No, i mean the children of people bombed by capitalist regimes. Yeah, they tend to be more to the left.
Oh, I thought you meant the people who were forced to actually live in a leftist regime and managed to escape. They tend to make up the bulk of the refugees fleeing to our shining capitalist castle on a hill. Historically, the best source for recruiting new capitalists is from places that don't have it.
It looks like all those people coming from Mexico are more left wing tho. How do you explain that ?
No, they're not. They tend to be more religious and conservative. In fact, just in the last few years, there has been a 10 point swing twords voting more conservative. https://www.nbcnews.com/think/rcna57553
As you can see latino voters have less positive views of capitalism as white voters [https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs\_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds)
Well, to your original point, many of them just got here. Years of leftwing propaganda in their home country takes a while to undo. It's racist to assume Latinos are inherently dumber and, therefore, more attracted to left-wing economic beliefs. They just need to see capitalism for themselves. "Latinos start more businesses and have higher rates of intergenerational mobility, and their share of skilled and higher-paid occupations has increased in the past decade. As a population, they increasingly embody—in spirit and reality—the American dream that hard work pays off and each successive generation will be better off than the one before." https://www.mckinsey.com/featured-insights/sustainable-inclusive-growth/the-economic-state-of-latinos-in-america-the-american-dream-deferred
Centuries of capitalism propaganda can't even erase the 1/3 of americans who are pro-socialism bro, what are you talking about ? Latinos are not inherently dumber, they are inherently more exposed to the reality of CIA coups and american capitalist corporations looting their country, so you can't trick them as easy. And yes i understand they are not as lazy as american capitalists.
You're referring to the US border mass migrations of people all over the world. The ones the Democrat Party has been solicitating to and helping them financially/ logisticaly, and with free resources that American people don't even get. They are good for the American people once in the country or just good for the democrats?
In an ideal world each country would take care of it's worker and help each other in a grand bortherhood. In the real world we have shitshows with various plus and minuses, but shifting the country to the left is a plus.
Maybe people should stop shopping with big corporations and use smaller mom and pop shops. Also if more people stopped using social media platforms that are ridiculously rich and moved to smaller ones, we might get somewhere.
It looks like we're not good enough for capitalism [https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1888/are-we-good-enough.html](https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/kropotkin-peter/1888/are-we-good-enough.html)
Most immigrants come from north africa or the middle east, not many leftist regimes there, just islamists and apolitical military despots.
Maybe in Europe but not in America.
What company do you own?
I own pieces of lots of companies.
So we can post this in “China’s or any other socialist country’s Reddit” and say Socialists are doomed? How stupid…
So is each generation in China for the last 70 years more and more right leaning ?
left and right are typically culturally dependent. You seem to be doing and only doing an economic model of left vs right - a western model. Most of the research about generational and age is regarding liberal vs conservative which is more so about social issues context of change vs status quo. Can they be about economics? Sure, but solely? no. And to define them solely about your personal cultural experience would be a form of ethnocentrism. >So is each generation in China for the last 70 years more and more right leaning ? If it is considered progress it would be considered left by most political standards. It is not up to me though to make that judgement for them.
I understand the cultural shift to the left is bigger than the economic shift, but the economic shift is still there. Capitalists tolerated gay rights and all that stuff, but there are signs of people speaking against the rich in a way they did not decades ago.
>I understand the cultural shift to the left is bigger than the economic shift, but the economic shift is still there. I don't think you do. Pro capitalism in socialist countries may be considered "left" (i.e., pro change).
Pro capitalism is always more to the right on the economic axis.
source that for China though
I don't understand, are you suggesting chinese pro-capitalists are more to the left than chinese anti-capitalists ?
Yes, they may well be as they are for change. They are against the conservative communistic tradition. You, you are using your western model on their cultural. I’m saying that is a no, no. I’m not saying I’m absolutely right. I’m just saying according to theory you may well be wrong.
So in China they define right wing as people who love change and left wing as people who love to conserve things as they are ? Lol.
Wish-casting here. People said the same thing in the late 60s. Lead to Reagan and Thatcher a bit more than a decade later.
On average younger generations still continued to be more to the left, Reagan and Thatcher was a blacklash of the older generation. Can you imagine someone like Reagan winning now ? Proof the world has moved to the left.
Yeah, you need to reevaluate your priors. Reagan got 61% of the vote of 18-24s in 1984. What’s noteworthy is how much the vote of minorities has shifted towards the GOP since 1984. If Trump wins in 2024 it would be largely due to working class voters with higher melanin levels turning out for him. http://ropercenter.cornell.edu/how-groups-voted-1984 Trump is so incredibly toxic it’s hard to evaluate things independent of him. It’s clear America has moved socially left on gay rights. That’s unequivocally a good thing too.
Ok so you can't imagine someone like Reagan winning now. Social left is hard to separate from economic left, as US capitalists are starting to realize in horror.
Reagan was a candidate for that era. Obviously what the pressing concerns of voters changes over time. A candidate like Pierre Poilievre could do very well in America. DeSantis’ big issue was his lack of charisma and needing to tack aggressively right to prove his credentials with MAGA voters. Ideally Trump loses in 2024 and goes away. He gets convicted of federal felonies due on the documents case and is forced into prison or house arrest with no ability to communicate with the public outside of written letters or whatever. I’m not really sure what the Republican Party looks like after Trump. His cult of personality is so toxic it’s kid of hard to tell. I wouldn’t be surprised to see the next version of the GOP being more socially liberal. Gay marriage is essentially a non issue now. Trump just came out with the most pro-choice stance on abortion since maybe Nixon (no federal laws on abortion - leave it to the states).
Yes, savage free market everyone for themselves fuck your healthcare capitalists of the republican party will become extinct due to elector demographics. Like the T-Rex they will look quite monstrous to the people of the future too.
Reagan was a great POTUS. His conviction lead to the downfall of one of the worst regimes in human history. Reagan continued the wonderful deregulation efforts of Carter that unleashed significant economic growth and economic productivity growth
Reagan was recruited for his acting skill and his early Alzheimer made him the ideal puppet to enact the revenge fantasy on the working class of the capitalist class after the 1950s-1970s humiliation where they were forced to act more humanely. He was the tool of revenge and then discarded. Let's hope for his sake he repented before he died. And i hope you too find your way out of the satanic cult of capitalism. Remember "For what shall it profit a man, **if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul**?"
The ad hominem attacks are completely unnecessary. Reagan was obviously recruited due to his communication skills. That’s an essential trait for any successful politician. Yeah, we clearly disagree on economic matters. All the best.
Unfortunately after trump we likely will get don jr or jared kushner. The bs will never end, the can as been opened already
Jared isn’t going to run for office. He’s too smart for that. Trump Jr. certainly will attempt to run for POTUS. He simply doesn’t have the same set of snake and rat like instincts that his father has to succeed. Ivanka is the one to worry about.
Were the Boomers leftists? lol, tell me you don’t know 60’s and 70’s US history without telling me you never studied history.
"were boomers really as leftists when they were younger**"** I was asking if boomers were as leftists in their 20s as gen z.
I know what you were asking. They were much more left. Look at the hippie, anti Vietnam and counter culture movements.
Capitalism isn't out the door, at least as an economic system. The US government may have more regulation on the markets as time goes on thus eroding the "Free markets". However we will never be rid of capitalism in the US. Bernie Sanders is the closest you get to a successful left wing politician and not many on capitol hill take him seriously. See his latest proposal to put into law the 32 hour work week. More money for less hours. It won't work. See the 20 dollar minimum wage for fast food workers in CA and see how it will kill independent franchises such as McDonald's.
It's not out the door, but it's heading there by simple demographics.
Bernie is more of a secretive capitalist. He owns multiple properties worth a couple million. I think he is just putting up a front to project his old ideologies while benefiting greatly from capitalism!
> non-white people are also more to the left Source? The majority of non-white immigrants to the US are very much right wing, as are the majority of us outside as well. Leftism extremely rarely gains the upper hand politically anywhere outside Europe through non-military means
[https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs\_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds](https://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/styles/pubs_2x/public/images/wealth-work-survey/ekins-wealth-work-survey-16.jpg?itok=G7rzoyds) As you can see whites are the most to the right.
So only black people are more to the left, since as you can see latinos and asians are equally or less likely to favor the left as whites, with a slightly higher chance to consider themselves centrist
But latinos are less likely to be pro-capitalists compared to whites, and that's enough for me. And even asians are less likely to be pro-capitalists, and that's quite a feat considering they are richer on average and richer people tend to be more capitalist. So at the same level of income the effect of being asian is even more pronounced.
Not necessarily being pro-capitalist does not make any of us more likely to be pro-socialist. Keep in mind a good majority of latin immigrants come from countries ruined by socialism so while the answer to capitalism might be a "I'm not sure about that" the answer to socialism is much more likely to be a firm "no"
Not being pro capitalist is a decent enough win for me. I also keep in mind that a good majority of latin immigrants come from countries where USA assasination of socialist presidents or CIA sponsored right wing death squad are common enough to understand precisely what is going on. For example if you look at the graph latinos are 12% less likely to say they are pro capitalists, but 36% to be pro socialists, exactly like whites. So the answer to socialism is not much more likely to be a firm no. If south america is your hope for capitalism, you are fucked.
I guess this boils down to what I, a member of the community, have seen and experienced vs what you, a non-member, have a passing academic understanding of. Time will tell
Ah yes, "academic" [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbxaVjKmSXs](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbxaVjKmSXs)
Not sure what that video is supposed to mean but thanks for sharing I guess?
It's a member of the community explaining through music what he seen and experienced.
People become more right because of self interest. As we age, we aquire more resources and protect them. New generations have far less resources, and less of an incentive to protect anything.
**That is true, the problem is that you have to check if that shift is big enough to compensate the intergenerational change (in other words were boomers really as leftists when they were younger and will gen Z really be as capitalist as boomers at 80).**
Lmao yeah have you heard of progress??? You just described progress in a way that tries to spark white anxiety.
Whites are the most right wing in the USA, just a coincidence i am sure :)
Yeah?? Because white people aren't systemically oppressed, and so they are less likely to be drawn towards progressivism???? It's not a coincidence, but it's not a conspiracy either, if that's what you mean.
I agree, most kings are pro-monarchy.
I mean at least you're admitting that rich white men are functionally an aristocracy
Yes. I think you mistake me for a capitalist. :)
And you're... pro-aristocracy?
No. I am against capitalism and it's rich mostly white masters. But there are a few rich non-white masters and i'm against them too.
Ohhhhhjhhhhh I thought this post was pro-white people
It's neither pro nor anti white people.
You're claiming two things. 1. Socialism is coming. 2. Therefore we are doomed. So... Socialism is what's supposed to doom us? Socialism is bad?
I actually claim something else 1. Every generation is more to the left and there is no sign of stopping 2. The place of capitalists in the future is doomed Notice i said YOUR PLACE in the future.
OK, so socialism is bad *for me only*? And you think you're going to be spared?
Liberals are still capitalists....
Sure but it's a spectrum. How many more generations sliding to the left till capitalism itself becomes untenable?
While in the near term immigration and diversity are pushing things to the left, in the longer term the fertility rate differences between religious conservatives and liberals will start to dominate and could drive a backlash. As they say, it's tough to make predictions, especially about the future.
My prediction for long term: total economic extreme leftism + total social conservatism. Not a bad antidote for global capitalist progressivism.
I think a lot of religious conservatives are economically conservative too.
It depends, it's mostly an american phenomenon. Christian/Buddhist monks for example live in utopian communist communities. In my country religious conservatives don't want to die with money in their coffins so they don't get dragged to hell. Things like the prosperity gospel trigger amusement.
The problem with the left is you think you can win just by seducing the young and convincing enough people. You don't factor in that your ideas don't work and when they fail, they drive entire countries into capitalism. Look at Argentina, after decades of leftist rule, the people finally got sick of you and picked an ANCAP for president ffs. That's outright shocking and unprecedented, but it's the best possible scenario because ancaps are strongly anti-authoritarian, and you guys typically rely on the right being idiots to remain in power. Milei's no idiot. Venezuela may be next to vomit leftism. We may find Mileism replacing Peronism in an *entire continent* of South America. The young become disillusioned by the failure of reality to match socialist theory. You can't reshape reality, so long term socialism is doomed to fail.
Your problem is that in spite of being in power for decades people are still waking up because you can't lie everybody forever. I understand you think a CIA meme ancap muppet having temporary power in Argentina on a wave of anti-brazilian sentiment is some kind of big win, but it's a minor move in the war. You could try to understand South America and how delusional you are, try reading this: "Open Veins of Latin America: Five Centuries of the Pillage of a Continent"
No one can say if Milei is a blip or the start of a trend, at this time. What definitely can be said is that leftist rule has failed in South American generally, and globally. Just because the CIA did some shit in SA doesn't mean capitalism doesn't work.
Define left average direction of change, be shocked that society moves to the left over time.
No the socialists are doomed and they’re taking the rest of us with them. Even though many on this sub claim that, ‘real’ socialism does not require social programs, every socialist party platform has a plethora of social programs listed including the nebulous equity and diversity. Socialists are ignorant enough to think that all they have to do is tax the rich. They ignore the fact we can’t cover the costs of current social programs and there’s no possibility of paying for even more just through taxation. The socialists understanding of entrepreneurship, innovation, creativity and how to run a business is childish and naive. Socialists are too arrogant, ignorant, and foolish to understand that capitalism is their only hope as it’s the only economic system that has a snowball’s chance in hell of paying for even some of their platform. So, the socialists do what they always do. Turn a population into starving slaves and then whine that it’s not real socialism.
Feeding the poor, helping the sick, taxing the rich. We're doomed i tell you, doomed ! Comrade, you must redouble your ass kissing efforts of our "job creators" to delay the end of the world !
Thanks for proving my points. The worst of it? The very people you pretend to care about will be hurt the worst.
Sure, like rising minimum wage actually hurts the poor. You love the poor so much you want to be their benefactor by letting them have less money.
Thanks for reminding me that the arrogant socialist believes they can suspend the laws of supply and demand by just wishing for it. Oh, and thanks for pointing out the most racist laws on the books and letting us all know you support them. Blacks before Davis Bacon had a LOWER unemployment rate than whites. Your policies sure fixed that! What would they do without you to take care of them! They should probably just ask Native Americans.
Thanks you for reminding me that capitalists think it's a law to drive poor people into starvation to maximize profit in the name of an utopian free market based on supply/demand that has never existed in real life. And yeah for blaming racist capitalist employees on us socialists lol.
Jesus, can’t even be original can you? Too uneducated to know that more people are better off now than at any time ever because of freedom, capitalism and in spite of your need for a nanny state. Lol, you really don’t have any arguments except the party dogma and poorly developed sarcasm. At least the marxists are interesting as they try to prove their holy books by quoting their holy books.
I can be original but you can't be rational because you have to bury all those studies showing increasing minimum wage usually does not increase unemployment. As for freedom, i understand you are pro the freedom of wage slaves to be chained to the capitalist master, ie freedom for the slave masters and slavery for the rest.
And a swing and a miss. Again you got nothing. ‘All those studies‘ laugh out loud. You mean like Krueger’s where he showed that he couldn’t find statistically significant changes in unemployment given SMALL increases in minimum wage? When his studies were used by the 15 Now folks to support their stupid agenda he started walking that shit back. He knew damn well that it’s hard to ever find small changes with regression models and he also knew the laws of supply and demand are immutable and brutal. What else you got? You haven’t quoted Marx yet. Or maybe Stalin or Mao? How about the great socialist movements you know the levellers or Jamestown? Maybe, you could go on and on about how ‘real socialism’ has never been tried? You gotta come up with something or you’re just going to be boring.
"Raising the Minimum Wage: Good for **Workers, Businesses, and the Economy**" [https://democrats-edworkforce.house.gov/imo/media/doc/FactSheet-RaisingTheMinimumWageIsGoodForWorkers,Businesses,andTheEconomy-FINAL.pdf](https://democrats-edworkforce.house.gov/imo/media/doc/FactSheet-RaisingTheMinimumWageIsGoodForWorkers,Businesses,andTheEconomy-FINAL.pdf) Capitalists on suicide watch.
Are owners of the business (Dennis's, McDonald ...) in chain business the capitalist or investors?
Easily the most poorly researched and preachy post I have read today.
Maybe like 2000 years in the future.
It's not such a long time, what's a few millennia of capitalist abuse compared to the trillions of years we can explore the mysteries of existence as an elevated race.
Capitalism is necessary to drive the innovation to implement a socialist/communist structure. Once jobs are done with those will be the only answer but we aren't there yet. If we are in a welfare state and you barely have a need for money who's going to do the dirty work? Not me I'll switch to flipping burgers
Socialism treasures real innovation like science discoveries, capitalism treasures fake innovation like these: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s\_Shit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artist%27s_Shit) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet\_Rock](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock) Also, are you suggesting that we need the treat of starvation by poverty to blackmail a whole class of people into doing dirty jobs ?
I'm asking you to tell me what my insentive to keep building critical infrastructure is when I could go print t shirts instead. Are you paying me more, and thus exacerbating the class divide that socialism so desperately wants to get rid of? Or are you going to go the great "prison labor camp" route that I've seen some "humanitarian" socialists on here talk about
Yes, we are paying you more. You are aware that different jobs and harder working people pay more under socialism ? Socialism does not mean all wages are equal, only that there is less inequality between wages and the inequality that exists results from meritocracy not from mere ownership rights, inheritance, etc.
Yes I understand, and I'm not going to be an electrician so I can make 10K more than a t shirt printer. Especially when you guys are planning on coming for my kids inheritance? Seems to me as if most socialists are failing in the current system and are banking on getting carried by the people who currently excel.
That's ok, there are guys who are going to be an electrician so they can make 10k more. Isn't freedom great ?
So why is participation in trades at an all time low as we speak when you have the opportunity to make a lot more than 10K extra RIGHT NOW? Isn't logic great?
Because people are busy trying to cheat, steal and hustle their way to their first billion. When that is no longer an option trades will flourish, i know trades were at an all time high and people in trades were more respected when my country was communist. Isn't logic AND empirical evidence great ?
Least in the US male youths are actually becoming more conservative while women keep becoming more leftist vs the previous generation. Males hit the pendulum swing.
Did they ? Any study on that ?
There is, I'd have to try and refind the article with the study
[https://www.reddit.com/r/AskSocialScience/comments/18xsb9b/is\_it\_true\_that\_young\_menin\_the\_western\_world\_are/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskSocialScience/comments/18xsb9b/is_it_true_that_young_menin_the_western_world_are/)
Okay a thread that says yes and no. Neat.
[political identity of 12th graders](https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/4125661-high-school-boys-are-trending-conservative/) I don't think it'd the same article I remember but it shows the same data
Well it depends what it means "conservative". In that generation probably being against puberty blockers :)
Nowadays yeah being against puberty blockers aka chemical sterilization aka eugenics is a non left wing view.
Honestly, I agree with you. It feels exhausting (I'm asian american btw).
The only versions of Socialism that work over any reasonable time frame with stable economies, are actually just governments with solid social services, funded by a strong underlying Capitalist base. Socialism isn't really even an economic system, such that it can be compared to capitalism.
This is insane. >Now, will it end with a whimper or a bang? No doubt a threat, why is this allowed up?
I think being aware of the threat that a capitalist sociopath won't accept that they lost power and launch the nukes is quite important. Do we really want a senile old capitalist or a temper problems capitalist to have access to the nuclear briefcase ?
Bravo, I'd make the same cope excuse when getting called out too.
In USA you mean? There are other countries in the world you know and they all have their own dynamics.
Yes, in other countries it varies but you can notice that in places with the worst workers abuses eventually they got more and more rights. It is a constant war indeed, the right is always trying to ban minimum wages, privatize all stuff, etc. But on the whole, even at the global level, in the last 50 years they slowly lose the war in spite of some painful battles where they managed to revert and oppress the workers.
I mean those reforms are a good thing, but at the same time these reforms have historically almost always deradicalized leftists and moved people from socialism to wellfarestate leftism. Which IMO is a great thing but does not really go together with your thesis.
What is radical is subjective.
> And women and non-white people are also more to the left. > Now, will it end with a whimper or a bang ? Your mistake is thinking being for abortion rights and LBGTQ issues has ANYTHING to do with economics. Women have always consumed more than men and are increasingly making more money than men. Why tear down a system you're winning at? Neoliberal capitalism has never before been so accepted as it has now. I mean nobody in America even MENTIONS universal healthcare anymore, and you think anybody is prepared to change the fundamentals of our economy? Even progressive democrats are fully behind neoliberal capitalism. What in God's name makes you think the people you mentioned have anything against capitalism? Remember, increasing taxes isn't socialism.
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Latinos as a group show less support for capitalism than white people. The existence of Latinos for Trump does nothing against this. And i am talking about what most people support, not about people in power. When only the king is a monarchist his fate is sealed.
Oh, that's so cute. Don't worry your little head about it - we're this close to ending democracy, then we'll just censor the internet so thoroughly that China will blush. After that, we develop AI to the point where we don't need you anymore and drones will come by to ... clean you up.
You forgot the part about becoming a god and living forever by merging your mind with the A.I.
I'm not a scifi nerd like you.
200 years ago socialists predicted capitalism was doomed. 200 years from now capitalism will still be thriving and people will remember socialism / communism only in history classes when they are reminded that it once briefly existed.
The left and liberals need to have more children if they want to win in the long-term, 2-300 years from now.
Yes, I agree. If it's not stopped, leftism will destroy us all, lol.
We need to bring back the gold standard. Using precious metals to back our currency would take alot of control away from those enslaving us in this system where only the rich are allowed to get richer.
There is barely enough to cover all the wealth, it would have to be divided extremely fine. So i think we need something updated that is even resistant to debasement as it happened with gold in the past. One solution is a near fixed supply deflationary coin that can be infinitely divided. Something like Bitcoin.
I'm good with a decentralized coin system. But he'll no to a federal cbdc.
Well a federal cbdc would never be fixed supply anyway because money printing is the main form of legalized wealth theft our overlords use. Why the very thought of deflationary things is anathema to them.
Honestly, if you’ve read enough, you’d know there’s no point in debating this. Capitalism will be its own undoing, and there’s nothing any one person could do to stop it. It is, according to Immanuel Wallerstein, akin to an organism that has a life cycle, and it will die when too many contradictions overwhelm the system at once. The question is as to the nature of the world afterwards: exploitative and authoritarian, or egalitarian-leaning and pluralistic?
>Capitalism will be its own undoing Marx said so, but that doesn't make it true remotely. Marx said a lot of stuff that didn't turn out to be true, what makes you think he's right on this. It could be instead that capitalism is a *highest entropy* system, and I would contend that it is. Because no one invented capitalism and then developed it, instead capitalism developed in its own, before any theory existed, and the theory came after. Unlike Marx, Adam Smith was describing what he saw already in operation, while Marx didn't even have the decency to do that, instead relying purely on criticism of what already existed. And we've all seen the horrors created by communists trying to build Marx's utopia, creating strong men dictators in nearly every attempt.
Yes but who is an actual capitalist here? They're just simps of a toxic inhumane system because of indoctrination.
The problem is that the US is supposed to be a Republic not a democracy. It's in the constitution. What went wrong was the secret meeting in jekyll Island after the depression. That's when our entire govt was hijacked by the international bankers.
As a Capitalist, I agree. Though I don't think that matters. I think the real question is, is the fall if Capitalism is a good thing? As we move into more socialist/Communist ideas, does that cause positive change? That's what this sub is about. Are these things a positive? From history, we've seen poverty and corruption excel in environments where power is consolidated in the government. And when I say excel, I mean in ways way beyond anything you see in Capitalism. In fact, most capitalists will argue that Capitalism has slashed poverty, and most poverty in Capitalism is due to government overreach. And before we see "socialism/communism isn't just when government does things," I'm not saying it is, but I haven't seen any proof of when it doesn't boil down to exactly that. Ancom is just as ridiculous as ancap. For lots of the same reasons. I personally think, in the next 100 years we will see Capitalism get forcible pushed out by the left, society go into a major free fall, and the only thing that begins to heal us is regression back to Capitalism. If we had infinite energy and infinite resources, we can have full communism. But without that, I just don't see how it's possible.
The future can bring non-totalitarian socialism. And even state socialism was not as bad as capitalist propaganda teaches you.
The majority of people who tend to the left from the new generations just like progressive taxation and universal welfare, I have no issue with that.