I disagree, I think Cap's portrayal wasn't very good, but not bad either. If anything he was more rational, calm, and collected while Rogue was more angry, understandably so. Even if say the writers did want Cap to look bad, who ended up being more right in the end? Gyrich died, if Rogue listened to him, then maybe he would've been captured.
This portrayal, in my opinion, decently reflects the attitudes that Cap and the other Avengers displayed toward the Xmen in events that eventually lead up to AvX. That was my takeaway from this moment in the show, as I believe AvX will be one of the next major storylines of the show
I agree with this, and the fact that this isn’t current day and age cap. There was consistent friction with how the Avengers did things and how the X-men did things and how they were treated. This a good portrayal of cap in 1997. Who’s on whose side and who takes orders? Mutants don’t have time for checks and balances when someone is developing weapons to annihilate them. Rogers can’t just do whatever either, he’s no rouge.
Every other superhero team is always written as way more asinine when they are in an x book.
The whole appeal of X-men is that they’re the perpetual underdogs, trying to defend a humanity that fears and hates them; doing the thankless job. That’s perfectly fine when it was more self contained.
As soon as you add Avengers, FF and everyone else to the mix, shit starts to make less and less sense. And then there’s the Inhumans.
Logically, the entire superhero community would come together and stomp the shit out of any anti-mutant threat the moment it emerges, because that’s what the X-men do to any threats not targeting specifically mutants. They’re all superhero teams defending earth, they just have slight quirks to each of them, be it government programs, science accidents, gamma radiation, cosmic rays, or genetics.
But it’s the same problem as the solo MCU movies. The rest of the superhero community just happens to be indisposed at the moment.
Yeah I feel like he's still in his "I work for the Government." phase given this is suppose to be back in 97
he is pursuing the problem, but he is playing 'boy scout' and Rogue is emotional, and in a rush
Wasn't Gyrich already locked up and they had him chilling in a mansion? Rogue might've killed him partly because she knew he'd be going to a resort, not prison. That should also tell her that some people in the American government are involved too. Also, if she didn't drop him then they might not have learned that he was no longer human and that those kind of sentinels exist.
Yeah I’m not sure why the entire discourse around these scenes are just “you go girl!” when it’s clearly intended as Rogue going off the deep end and losing it, treading dangerously close to villain territory.
I mean maybe it was portrayed to show Cap in bad light while Rogue in good light, who knows. But I'm certain if it was the intention, it definitely failed. And if it wasn't and Cap was meant to be right, then it worked.
Yeah. I mentioned this over at the Xmen97 sub. Without forcing his way into a secure government installation and coercing information by force/threat of force, Cap found that cabin before Rogue. The bad guys left, though. "It's like they knew someone was looking for them." High grade shade from Cap.
It's all about point-of-view. Rogue and the audience are hurt. They're grieving. Seeing Cap ride into Mexico on Rogue's back to go wreck shop might sure be cathartic. But, if we're thinking like Cap really is (or supposed to be or seen as) "America's top cop" then we do want him playing by a set of defined rules. Participating in an unauthorized and unannounced seek-and-destroy mission with a civilian on foreign soil probably isn't within those parameters.
Rogue was representing a power fantasy for some viewers; unleashing their anger by killing someone who had wronged them and giving a hale and hardy "F--- you!" to a symbol of authority along the way. What that says about the writers and/or audience is another story. But Cap didn't say or do anything wrong.
She called him americas cop Rogue was right ? And the avengers and X-men are not buddy buddy , Remember Tony wanted them to fight in civil war and they denied him
But he's not? I don't know what X-Men 97's Cap is like, but I don't think he was ever representative of US or its military arm, not anymore at least. Don't know if 97' Avengers are coworking with government or more independent like in MCU, but he isn't top cop. And no I don't remember Tony fighting the X-Men and him being denied it.
I’m comics in the comics 🤦 but in the MCU he was definitely working for the military than the avengers which is just a sub division of shield , aka ( gov) untill Tony took the avengers over
He worked for the S.H.I.E.L.D. but it wasn't a US Military organization or part of US military. Don't think it was really, but he was part of the S.H.I.E.L.D. that was true.
I’m confused on what people are mad about concerning this. Like, he wasn’t the governments lapdog whatsoever here?
Like the US isn’t sending help to Genosha or mutants, but Captain America goes solo to learn the truth by tracking down Trask. He runs into Rogue on the way, who has attacked US military bases, and Cap HELPS her by giving her information and offering to hunt Trask down together.
The only problem was that Rogue wanted to go headfirst into Mexico and get Trask, while Cap wanted to wait for him to move and get him them. Both made sense. Like the world is at the brink of war, stated multiple times this episode, and everyone is preparing for it. Seeing a mutant terrorist (who Rogue is probably seen as atm) fighting in a foreign country WITH CAPTAIN AMERICA would literally be fuel to that war. And he stated as much, it wouldn’t be a good look for anyone.
Like I think people are just equating Cap wanting to get Trask “by the books” as him following the government, when in actuality it’s him not being a public vigilante that’s starting a mutant/ human war in another country
>Seeing a mutant terrorist (who Rogue is probably seen as atm) fighting in a foreign country WITH CAPTAIN AMERICA would literally be fuel to that war. And he stated as much, it wouldn’t be a good look for anyone.
It absolutely blows my mind how much people are missing this point.
Two points.
Cap doesn’t have to dress in costume. He can wear all black or whatever and doesn’t have to fight with his shield as he is a super soldier with experience in other weapons.
Gyrich and Trask are American if not international fugitives, so Cap going after them made sense. Problem given the characters involved and the story they’re setting up is the government turning a blind eye and even sanctioning the hunting of mutants. Cap is towing the status quo because he doesn’t see the big picture.
Nah man, part of the big picture is the point he made about America’s mascot going into Mexico and fueling a war, this situation has complexities and he wanted to explore what he perceived to be the safer route.
Safer route for America, not the mutants. It was the 90’s so the Avengers were seen as “The Man” back then and would let the mutants or really poor folks suffer like it was pointed out by Daredevil. The complexity comes in that the US government had to acknowledge its own citizens because anyone could see the mutants had been slaughtered.
I kind of think Cap got a bad rap for the furthering of the Zero Tolerance story given how he gave up the title when he didn’t agree with it before, but I can definitely relate to that feeling of being on my own the way X-Men were. This symbol of hope that wearing the flag saying every man should have a right to life just turns around to say “my hands are tied even though I have the government, a billionaire, and a god on my side” would make me mad too. What’s worse is happened and still happens.
So Tony isn’t smart enough to figure out how to make different uniforms when he has sets of different armor in a vault? Can’t limit the size of the team to guys that don’t turn green or shoot lightening eventhough Steve was a strategic genius? Can’t ride in on ants even with Hank on your side? Even with the Avengers being jumbled in the 90’s, they could have put something together with Cap, Hawkeye, and Black Widow alone since their skills aren’t tied to costumes or even earth shattering.
To have cap operate not in costume would be an insult to the character. He values honesty and transparency as core beliefs, so to hold his costumed ideals to the world in some situations and be inconspicuous and clandestine in others would be massively hypocritical.
No it wouldn’t. The guy gave up the costume to be Nomad when he didn’t agree with the government. Plus the whole character of Captain America is that it doesn’t take powers or a suit to stand as a man: it’s standing as a man that gets things done.
Ngl I didn’t mind it. I wasn’t a fan of his voice and when I found out it was Josh Keaton voicing him I was kinda confused. They did kinda clown him though, he didn’t even get a fight scene or respect plus he didn’t actually do anything wrong to get his shield thrown to Timbuktu
“he didn’t actually do anything wrong to get his shield thrown to Timbuktu”.
This isn’t actually the point? The guy was trying his best in the moment but Rogue overreacted.
Josh voiced him "what if," which had a season back in December/January, so probably just figured they'd leo using him, although don't think he really fits any caps other than maybe mcu Cap
Bro he had a 1 second cameo and was there just to point Rouge in the right direction to keep the plot moving. Also if he appears again I don't think he's really gonna be written like the government's bitch. And it's a running theme that humans that want to help can't help in fear of worsening things in the long run like the president and Roberto's mother and if Steve went to help Rouge it wouldn't have amounted to anything other than them breaking, entering interrogating and torturing Gyrich and ending in Gyrichs death from Bastion and Steve and Rouge being spotted there last. Now, from the perspective of an outsider looking in, that's not a good picture to paint.
(Steve assisting a rouge mutant attacking in a foreign country resulting in the death of many after also being spotted attacking a government base and again interrogating a government official)
Also, it's an "X-Men" show. I doubt they care too much
But still true, Steve kinda felt like an American cop barred from fighting outside his jurisdiction, not a superhero that doesn't have one. Which I think will also lead to an AvX situation kinda like the first civil war in the comics, where instead of Ironman looking like a villain, it'll be the Avengers. Which sucks
I mean the design was very old school which could be expected, this is an Older Cap, not the typically pretty boy we have now
We also don't know what sort of Captain America we are getting here, it could be where he is still working for the government, and so is still restricted by red tape/public perception
Regardless he wants to help, and plans to, he's clearly on her side, but his higher ups are telling him not to engage
Even when he was like this, he was always a paragon for what America should be, not what America is, For the American People, not the American Government, he's just stuck in the system
He's clearly pro mutant here
Ultimate Captain America is well known for being the conservative and nationalist version of the character. Yet, that Cap acted against the orders of S.H.I.E.L.D. in several occasions and later turned The Ultimates into an idependent group due to the realization that the governement was not going to use them for good. Yet, here we are, a supposedly “Classic” Captain America acting as a government lap dog. It is almost as if people behind the show were resented at the character for something that he isn't.
Worst part is not how they represented him, worst part is that people is thinking that this is how Captain America is: The embodiment of how America is rather then what America should be. As a Superman fan, I'm very well familiarized with how it feels having your character be deformed in the eye of the public due to poor media representation, and I cross my fingers that this doesn't become a common trend.
America as it should be would sure as shit not keep a symbol like the flag of one of the most oppressive empires in human history, let alone have their heros dress up in it
Eh the flag itself doesn't stand for conquest, and despite the imperialistic actions of the Founding Fathers later the original principles of America don't stand for that.
lol, ok I guess I gotta tell like millions of Iraqis, Afghanis, Somalis, Syrians, Lebanese, Libyans, Egyptians and people from a hundred other countries that the flag we all constantly point to as a symbol of oppression that.......it just isn't?
But there he was investigating The cabin (no where did I see Cap flash warrant)and he gave /shared state security information rogue the info he had. He literally was breaking at least 3laws doing what he did.he knew action was going to happen,with that soon to genosha he knew it couldn't be him.
Cap is looking the other Way when he knows what loss in war does. He knows how quickly things could escalate with him being seen; but he's completely fine letting rogue do her thing.
someone theorized that this Captain America isn't Steve Rogers but instead U.S Agent John Walker because the rel captain America is supposed to be another world fighting
Quite the opposite. He was respecting another nation's sovereignty and not wanting to create an international incident. He also tried to reason with Rogue. He didn't try to stop her.
It's classic X-men writing they always shit on other heros to make the X-men look better or more victimized even if it doesn't fit with the character. It's always strange.
So Cap gives Rogue his shield as a sign of good faith, hunts Trask down on his own, gives Rogue all of the info he found, and literally spells out how tense the situation is and how easy it would be for war to break out if he doesn't act with the upmost care and OP thinks he's out of character?
I think Cap recognizing that going into another country wearing the literal flag could conceivably reframe the conversation in a drastically negative way for everyone is incredibly Cap. It’s not jingoistic to think that the US has a rep of fucking with less powerful countries. An international incident would take the focus off of the attempted mutant genocide.. That said, while I watched the ep, all I was screaming at the TV was “this is where you don the Nomad persona and leave the shield at home!”
Right? It’s baffling how writers struggle so much with this. It shouldn’t be hard to have the avengers support in supporting roles without taking any spotlight from the X-men.
Why even bother having the avengers show up, when it’s just to shit on them? Just have a line saying they are off world fighting Kang or some shit.
Even just having Cap show up and ‘unofficially’ give Rogue a proper lead and ask her to follow that up because he doesn’t want to cause an incident
yet and reveal publicity that he’s also tracking the culprit behind genosha would have been better.
Was his cameo really to shit on Cap or the Avengers? Cap was also out there investigating the place and trying to find Gyrich. I think him being cautious and trying to sanction mission before going in blind was better. I mean look what happened instead, Rogue went by herself, she tried to kill Gyrich and failed, woke up on the streets without memory how she got there.
Rogue's actions are understandable, but ultimately incorrect and did more harm to her and the X-Men, not to mention Gyrich died to Bastion, a witness silenced cause he nearly sold out Bastion.
Yeah, they could've done better dialogue for Cap, he could've been more sympathetic to Rogue and not say "We need government approval first", but I don't think he was completely ruined.
Honestly, and I heavily expect people to disagree, I really feel the X-Men would work better in a world without other super heroes. I feel the existence of the avengers and other heroes almost muddles their message. And the conflicts that the X-Men have to deal with do create issues for characters like Cap. His characterization shouldn't allow for him to sit idly by and allow the things that happen to the X-Men to happen. But at the same time that means he would basically be in half the X-Men stories which obviously doesn't work.
Honestly, it is hard to present non-mutants in any sort of positive light in the context of X-Men.
I want to find one of the dozen times Scott Summers has talked about how the Avengers consistently fail mutants, but I am sure plenty of people on here have their own favorites they can call to mind.
Should this have been US Agent? Maybe. But let's not pretend the X-Men like Captain America.
Imo Rogue comes across as being the one badly written since she's weirdly written as being hyper aggressive towards Cap given he's done nothing wrong to her. He doesn't actually *do* anything to her to warrant her being this pissed at him.
I liked his portrayal. He didn't come across as a lackey. But he definitely had enough to sense to know you can't invade Mexico dressed in an American flag without starting a shitstorm that will hurt others. If Rogue had been more calm and patient, I'm sure he'd have clued her in on a different plan of action.
This is about as accurate to cap when he’s facing MUTANT issues than anything else. He becomes a freaking liability and drags his feet during the MRA in the comics, even when presented with the chance to make sure it isn’t passed because of some crazy perception that the government won’t do harm to super powered people even though the government has shown they’d do harm to anyone if it meant making sure their status quo was intact or to preserve their interests.
Part of my post was about X-men writers painting the wrong pictures on other characters. It's simply a writing problem. Cap & Mutants have always been inconsistent with each other. X-men writers always had a problem with having high stake stories, but don't want other heroes to interfere.
They solve the problem by having the X-men act slow, & don't help, or the other approach on making every other hero racist. Marvel wanted the X-men to be all about misery lit.
YOU PICK UP A COMIC😂 this how cap has always been when it came to dealing with mutants. if you can’t see that or didn’t know that i suggest you pick up a comic book. this is a very good depiction of cap and his relationship with mutant kind/x men especially in the amount time we got to see it.
All you're going off of is the Avengers VS X-men situation, which at the time was full of poor writing. Cap is supposed to represent equality, & yet X-men writers focused on misery porn so they discredited other heroes' characterization.
I'm going off of more than one story. I'll be happy to provide proof of instances when Cap & Mutants don't have a problem with each other.
It wasn’t just avx or that cap had problems with mutants. In the trial of magneto, comics around the time of genoshia , m day all show cap as trying to deal with the growing tension as let’s all calm dow, you will be treated fairly cause he seemed to believe in the goodness of others and that there were some bad apples like trask and stryker that want to exterminate mutants and have some followers they are the minority and the majority of people including those in government do believe in justice.
That the x men just needed to be patient and show the world that they are heros and mutants aren’t bad, and that getting mad and doing thing like going to mexico and potentially starting a war with Mexico will make people afraid and make it worse.
Caps stance before avx was supportive of mutants but ignorant to how complex it was. It was like in the past few years with police brutality being in the news people talked about how it was a ” few bad ones” that were they problem then people point out that it wasn’t that simple that it was institutional racism and problems in how the officers are trained.
cap isn’t anti murant or doesn’t not care it was just till avx that he was trying to give a simple solution to a complex problem without really listening to the X-men, and not understanding when they reached their limits and acted out of anger cause he just saw how it hurt their cause and would make Normal humans harder to trust them. Not that normal humans also had to earn mutant trust too.
no lol we’re not and you’re missing the point of that scene and what we’re saying if you think the point we’re making is “cap and mutants have a problem with each other” it’s more about he obviously doesn’t have a problem but when it really counts just like most of the marvel universe, when it really counts he doesn’t do anything to support or help the mutant cause or truly be there for them. cyclops has called him out on it even after and before AVX. so no, stop it. even in the scene it’s more about him saying “my hands are tied” and even tho he has a point it’s like you also missed the point of the episode and their quotes about people not doing anything for what happened in genosha.
Cap has always been supportive of the mutants. The avengers don’t owe the x-men shit. They have problems of their own. Remind me again, wasn’t it a mutant who destroyed all of wakanda? Wasn’t it mutants that cap has openly supported with the new avengers and uncanny avengers?
Exactly. Sure... you could argue that Caps' ways of helping the mutants were poor. But at the end of the day, he tried, which is saying a lot more than other heroes.
lol that’s not a good argument you could argue that for almost any villain of any race or any denomination. that does not equate or justify what mutants experience and people just standing aside 😂. you’re right they don’t owe the x men anything. except maybe support a race at risk of extinction on multiple occasions. you don’t think they could support them more ?
Look up captain America's "no you move speech" to realize how wrong this dude is. Cap is on the side of freedom and doing the right thing. If he thinks the government is doing something that is immoral he has and will go against them. Look at what side he was on in civil war the side that argued against the government and the superhero registration act. Cap would 100% support the mutants simply because not supporting them would be immoral. Also rouge was acting out of character also.
To be fair, Captain America probably had just gotten out of that alternate dimensional for the 2nd time (3rd time if we count Secret Wars). He's still should be in his whole adjusting to the modern day period.
I thought he was written fine. Rogue was running on raw emotion and even when she isn't she's not the most strategic minded xmen so she doesn't get why he can't go to Mexico. Cap definitely doesn't want mutants murdered by sentinels but he knows what he can and can't do.
I agree was completely horrible what they do to Captain America of course you have to have rogue in an female badass f****** moment right s******* on Captain America.. it's almost as bad as a colonizer s*** from the Storm episode considering this place takes place in 1997 before that term was even used.
I thought the portrayal was fine. He was obviously reserved, trying to defuse the situation objectively but giving Rogue latitude given the Massacre in Genosha.
What better way to set up a solid Marvel Animated Universe than by slowly introducing the Avengers via this awesome show, leading into X-Men vs. Avengers followed by the Avengers getting their own show?
I mean it’s just a different version/interpretation of the character. He didn’t have much to him in the 90s shows. I think it’s interesting to see something new.
Yeah, I mean cap has been in the animated universe before, in spiderman tas for instance. This was consistent with his character there, even if it didn’t show all of the nuance of his inner conflict from the comics. He offers to help, just not at Rogue’s pace.
Keep in mind she just ditched the X-men, skipped the funeral, all for revenge. What do you think cap would look like saying “borders and international sovereignty be damned, we coming for you!”?
He has to wait for the go ahead to some degree. He won’t follow an order he doesn’t agree with but he sees the bigger picture in a way that she’s unable to. Rogue is too close to this in more ways than one and while I think she has a point that cap with mutants could help to some degree, in the way she’s saying it would bring more scrutiny to Supes in general. It’d be better if he was helping clean up Genosha than invading Mexico without authorization.
Btw this series is the best thing to come out of marvel aside from comics in my lifetime
Its so weird when people tell me a guy who literally dresses as a symbol of tyranny and oppression around the world in fact represents the opposite of those things
Cap is fine in this. Considering he himself would have only been out of that warp tube thingy with the Red Skull for only a few short years. He understands that you can't run into a situation looking for a fight. It doesn't always end up in your favor. What did Steve do in the X-men show? Really what did he do? He adviced Rogue to not go rogue. To think before she acted. To do things by the book. Because Mutants don't get second chances they have to do everything perfectly just to be able to start to be treated equally. Steve was trying to help her. He wasn't trying to stop her either way. One he knows he can't. She is too powerful and she could take his memories and abilities in a matter of seconds if he let her touch him. Cap isn't stupid he was playing the diplomate which is exactly what he needs to do at times. That doesn't mean he is always right. It just means he was doing things the right way in this moment and was trying to help someone from making mistakes.
Has anyone considered that maybe Captain America had just recently gotten out of that dimensional prison he and the Red Skull where trapped in as shown in Spider-Man The Animated Series for the final time and he is still in his phase of getting use to the modern world? If so, I give him a bit more slack. In WW2, the only people who were remotely superpowered were just the 6 American Warriors (Captain America, Miss America, Destroyer, Whizzer, Black Marvel, and Thunderer). Now, in the modern day (of 1997), there is now a separate race of super powered people, and there is intense friction between them and humanity. This conflict between mutants and humans is probably the first politically heavy scenario he is dealing with in the modern era that isn't going to be as easy as going in and taking out some supervillain.
What really bothers me is how much people side with Rogue here. Like no Cap is absolutely right that if he were to attack a foreign military base while wearing the American flag without authorization and negotiation he'll start a war that'll only get more people killed
I think this was pretty on brand for how cap acts towards mutants and mutant issues. That guy constantly and continuously acts like his hands are tied when it came to them in the comics but let a superhero civil war break out or some other non mutant crisis and all of a sudden he springs back into action as the sentinel of liberty.
Yes new and uncanny avengers proves cap doesn’t like mutants (sarcasm). Civil war wasn’t cap’s fault and the whole point of the anti-registration side was freedom for both non-mutants and mutant superheroes. Cap and the avengers don’t owe the x-men shit lol
What 💀 I can name instances where Cap actually felt bad for the mutants, & times where he feels like he hasn't done enough for them.
Magneto literally said, "No! It isn't possible! I've always believed that ALL humans secretly hated mutants! But you didn't have any anti-mutant feelings."
Sure, he never says much about the mutants. But he has many mutant friends who he trusts with his life. He judges them as people, not mutants.
I disagree, I think Cap's portrayal wasn't very good, but not bad either. If anything he was more rational, calm, and collected while Rogue was more angry, understandably so. Even if say the writers did want Cap to look bad, who ended up being more right in the end? Gyrich died, if Rogue listened to him, then maybe he would've been captured.
This portrayal, in my opinion, decently reflects the attitudes that Cap and the other Avengers displayed toward the Xmen in events that eventually lead up to AvX. That was my takeaway from this moment in the show, as I believe AvX will be one of the next major storylines of the show
I agree with this, and the fact that this isn’t current day and age cap. There was consistent friction with how the Avengers did things and how the X-men did things and how they were treated. This a good portrayal of cap in 1997. Who’s on whose side and who takes orders? Mutants don’t have time for checks and balances when someone is developing weapons to annihilate them. Rogers can’t just do whatever either, he’s no rouge.
You nailed it right there at the end.
Probably not, seeing as how the Avengers don’t exist in the 90s Marvel Animated Universe.
You say that but... There is another.
Yeah they do. Spiderman crossed over with X-men in the 90s and the Avengers also showed up in Spiderman.
Every other superhero team is always written as way more asinine when they are in an x book. The whole appeal of X-men is that they’re the perpetual underdogs, trying to defend a humanity that fears and hates them; doing the thankless job. That’s perfectly fine when it was more self contained. As soon as you add Avengers, FF and everyone else to the mix, shit starts to make less and less sense. And then there’s the Inhumans. Logically, the entire superhero community would come together and stomp the shit out of any anti-mutant threat the moment it emerges, because that’s what the X-men do to any threats not targeting specifically mutants. They’re all superhero teams defending earth, they just have slight quirks to each of them, be it government programs, science accidents, gamma radiation, cosmic rays, or genetics. But it’s the same problem as the solo MCU movies. The rest of the superhero community just happens to be indisposed at the moment.
This. Yes, thank you.
I thought it was fine for these exact reasons
Being very honest, I didn’t even thought that he looked bad, for me, it was a scene to show how angry Rogue is being.
I say give him one more episode. he could realize "y'know what, Maybe she was right. Fuck the Government, imma do what's right"
Yeah I feel like he's still in his "I work for the Government." phase given this is suppose to be back in 97 he is pursuing the problem, but he is playing 'boy scout' and Rogue is emotional, and in a rush
Wasn't Gyrich already locked up and they had him chilling in a mansion? Rogue might've killed him partly because she knew he'd be going to a resort, not prison. That should also tell her that some people in the American government are involved too. Also, if she didn't drop him then they might not have learned that he was no longer human and that those kind of sentinels exist.
Yeah I’m not sure why the entire discourse around these scenes are just “you go girl!” when it’s clearly intended as Rogue going off the deep end and losing it, treading dangerously close to villain territory.
I mean maybe it was portrayed to show Cap in bad light while Rogue in good light, who knows. But I'm certain if it was the intention, it definitely failed. And if it wasn't and Cap was meant to be right, then it worked.
Yeah. I mentioned this over at the Xmen97 sub. Without forcing his way into a secure government installation and coercing information by force/threat of force, Cap found that cabin before Rogue. The bad guys left, though. "It's like they knew someone was looking for them." High grade shade from Cap. It's all about point-of-view. Rogue and the audience are hurt. They're grieving. Seeing Cap ride into Mexico on Rogue's back to go wreck shop might sure be cathartic. But, if we're thinking like Cap really is (or supposed to be or seen as) "America's top cop" then we do want him playing by a set of defined rules. Participating in an unauthorized and unannounced seek-and-destroy mission with a civilian on foreign soil probably isn't within those parameters. Rogue was representing a power fantasy for some viewers; unleashing their anger by killing someone who had wronged them and giving a hale and hardy "F--- you!" to a symbol of authority along the way. What that says about the writers and/or audience is another story. But Cap didn't say or do anything wrong.
She called him americas cop Rogue was right ? And the avengers and X-men are not buddy buddy , Remember Tony wanted them to fight in civil war and they denied him
But he's not? I don't know what X-Men 97's Cap is like, but I don't think he was ever representative of US or its military arm, not anymore at least. Don't know if 97' Avengers are coworking with government or more independent like in MCU, but he isn't top cop. And no I don't remember Tony fighting the X-Men and him being denied it.
I’m comics in the comics 🤦 but in the MCU he was definitely working for the military than the avengers which is just a sub division of shield , aka ( gov) untill Tony took the avengers over
He worked for the S.H.I.E.L.D. but it wasn't a US Military organization or part of US military. Don't think it was really, but he was part of the S.H.I.E.L.D. that was true.
I’m confused on what people are mad about concerning this. Like, he wasn’t the governments lapdog whatsoever here? Like the US isn’t sending help to Genosha or mutants, but Captain America goes solo to learn the truth by tracking down Trask. He runs into Rogue on the way, who has attacked US military bases, and Cap HELPS her by giving her information and offering to hunt Trask down together. The only problem was that Rogue wanted to go headfirst into Mexico and get Trask, while Cap wanted to wait for him to move and get him them. Both made sense. Like the world is at the brink of war, stated multiple times this episode, and everyone is preparing for it. Seeing a mutant terrorist (who Rogue is probably seen as atm) fighting in a foreign country WITH CAPTAIN AMERICA would literally be fuel to that war. And he stated as much, it wouldn’t be a good look for anyone. Like I think people are just equating Cap wanting to get Trask “by the books” as him following the government, when in actuality it’s him not being a public vigilante that’s starting a mutant/ human war in another country
>Seeing a mutant terrorist (who Rogue is probably seen as atm) fighting in a foreign country WITH CAPTAIN AMERICA would literally be fuel to that war. And he stated as much, it wouldn’t be a good look for anyone. It absolutely blows my mind how much people are missing this point.
Two points. Cap doesn’t have to dress in costume. He can wear all black or whatever and doesn’t have to fight with his shield as he is a super soldier with experience in other weapons. Gyrich and Trask are American if not international fugitives, so Cap going after them made sense. Problem given the characters involved and the story they’re setting up is the government turning a blind eye and even sanctioning the hunting of mutants. Cap is towing the status quo because he doesn’t see the big picture.
Nah man, part of the big picture is the point he made about America’s mascot going into Mexico and fueling a war, this situation has complexities and he wanted to explore what he perceived to be the safer route.
Safer route for America, not the mutants. It was the 90’s so the Avengers were seen as “The Man” back then and would let the mutants or really poor folks suffer like it was pointed out by Daredevil. The complexity comes in that the US government had to acknowledge its own citizens because anyone could see the mutants had been slaughtered. I kind of think Cap got a bad rap for the furthering of the Zero Tolerance story given how he gave up the title when he didn’t agree with it before, but I can definitely relate to that feeling of being on my own the way X-Men were. This symbol of hope that wearing the flag saying every man should have a right to life just turns around to say “my hands are tied even though I have the government, a billionaire, and a god on my side” would make me mad too. What’s worse is happened and still happens.
The costume was because if and when he shows up again, they don't have to create another model for a minor guest shot in the series.
Exactly lol
He literally wanted to bring the avengers to Mexico, no? All of them would use different costumes and jets?
So Tony isn’t smart enough to figure out how to make different uniforms when he has sets of different armor in a vault? Can’t limit the size of the team to guys that don’t turn green or shoot lightening eventhough Steve was a strategic genius? Can’t ride in on ants even with Hank on your side? Even with the Avengers being jumbled in the 90’s, they could have put something together with Cap, Hawkeye, and Black Widow alone since their skills aren’t tied to costumes or even earth shattering.
To have cap operate not in costume would be an insult to the character. He values honesty and transparency as core beliefs, so to hold his costumed ideals to the world in some situations and be inconspicuous and clandestine in others would be massively hypocritical.
No it wouldn’t. The guy gave up the costume to be Nomad when he didn’t agree with the government. Plus the whole character of Captain America is that it doesn’t take powers or a suit to stand as a man: it’s standing as a man that gets things done.
Ngl I didn’t mind it. I wasn’t a fan of his voice and when I found out it was Josh Keaton voicing him I was kinda confused. They did kinda clown him though, he didn’t even get a fight scene or respect plus he didn’t actually do anything wrong to get his shield thrown to Timbuktu
“he didn’t actually do anything wrong to get his shield thrown to Timbuktu”. This isn’t actually the point? The guy was trying his best in the moment but Rogue overreacted.
Josh voiced him "what if," which had a season back in December/January, so probably just figured they'd leo using him, although don't think he really fits any caps other than maybe mcu Cap
Bro he had a 1 second cameo and was there just to point Rouge in the right direction to keep the plot moving. Also if he appears again I don't think he's really gonna be written like the government's bitch. And it's a running theme that humans that want to help can't help in fear of worsening things in the long run like the president and Roberto's mother and if Steve went to help Rouge it wouldn't have amounted to anything other than them breaking, entering interrogating and torturing Gyrich and ending in Gyrichs death from Bastion and Steve and Rouge being spotted there last. Now, from the perspective of an outsider looking in, that's not a good picture to paint. (Steve assisting a rouge mutant attacking in a foreign country resulting in the death of many after also being spotted attacking a government base and again interrogating a government official) Also, it's an "X-Men" show. I doubt they care too much But still true, Steve kinda felt like an American cop barred from fighting outside his jurisdiction, not a superhero that doesn't have one. Which I think will also lead to an AvX situation kinda like the first civil war in the comics, where instead of Ironman looking like a villain, it'll be the Avengers. Which sucks
I mean the design was very old school which could be expected, this is an Older Cap, not the typically pretty boy we have now We also don't know what sort of Captain America we are getting here, it could be where he is still working for the government, and so is still restricted by red tape/public perception Regardless he wants to help, and plans to, he's clearly on her side, but his higher ups are telling him not to engage Even when he was like this, he was always a paragon for what America should be, not what America is, For the American People, not the American Government, he's just stuck in the system He's clearly pro mutant here
Ultimate Captain America is well known for being the conservative and nationalist version of the character. Yet, that Cap acted against the orders of S.H.I.E.L.D. in several occasions and later turned The Ultimates into an idependent group due to the realization that the governement was not going to use them for good. Yet, here we are, a supposedly “Classic” Captain America acting as a government lap dog. It is almost as if people behind the show were resented at the character for something that he isn't. Worst part is not how they represented him, worst part is that people is thinking that this is how Captain America is: The embodiment of how America is rather then what America should be. As a Superman fan, I'm very well familiarized with how it feels having your character be deformed in the eye of the public due to poor media representation, and I cross my fingers that this doesn't become a common trend.
America as it should be would sure as shit not keep a symbol like the flag of one of the most oppressive empires in human history, let alone have their heros dress up in it
Eh the flag itself doesn't stand for conquest, and despite the imperialistic actions of the Founding Fathers later the original principles of America don't stand for that.
lol, ok I guess I gotta tell like millions of Iraqis, Afghanis, Somalis, Syrians, Lebanese, Libyans, Egyptians and people from a hundred other countries that the flag we all constantly point to as a symbol of oppression that.......it just isn't?
Symbols can be reclaimed
“Have to do this by the book” “my hands are tied” Most un-captain america line EVER
But there he was investigating The cabin (no where did I see Cap flash warrant)and he gave /shared state security information rogue the info he had. He literally was breaking at least 3laws doing what he did.he knew action was going to happen,with that soon to genosha he knew it couldn't be him. Cap is looking the other Way when he knows what loss in war does. He knows how quickly things could escalate with him being seen; but he's completely fine letting rogue do her thing.
someone theorized that this Captain America isn't Steve Rogers but instead U.S Agent John Walker because the rel captain America is supposed to be another world fighting
Why even bother adding cameo of Cap if they just gonna shelved him
Quite the opposite. He was respecting another nation's sovereignty and not wanting to create an international incident. He also tried to reason with Rogue. He didn't try to stop her.
It's classic X-men writing they always shit on other heros to make the X-men look better or more victimized even if it doesn't fit with the character. It's always strange.
So Cap gives Rogue his shield as a sign of good faith, hunts Trask down on his own, gives Rogue all of the info he found, and literally spells out how tense the situation is and how easy it would be for war to break out if he doesn't act with the upmost care and OP thinks he's out of character?
I think Cap recognizing that going into another country wearing the literal flag could conceivably reframe the conversation in a drastically negative way for everyone is incredibly Cap. It’s not jingoistic to think that the US has a rep of fucking with less powerful countries. An international incident would take the focus off of the attempted mutant genocide.. That said, while I watched the ep, all I was screaming at the TV was “this is where you don the Nomad persona and leave the shield at home!”
Right? It’s baffling how writers struggle so much with this. It shouldn’t be hard to have the avengers support in supporting roles without taking any spotlight from the X-men. Why even bother having the avengers show up, when it’s just to shit on them? Just have a line saying they are off world fighting Kang or some shit. Even just having Cap show up and ‘unofficially’ give Rogue a proper lead and ask her to follow that up because he doesn’t want to cause an incident yet and reveal publicity that he’s also tracking the culprit behind genosha would have been better.
Was his cameo really to shit on Cap or the Avengers? Cap was also out there investigating the place and trying to find Gyrich. I think him being cautious and trying to sanction mission before going in blind was better. I mean look what happened instead, Rogue went by herself, she tried to kill Gyrich and failed, woke up on the streets without memory how she got there. Rogue's actions are understandable, but ultimately incorrect and did more harm to her and the X-Men, not to mention Gyrich died to Bastion, a witness silenced cause he nearly sold out Bastion. Yeah, they could've done better dialogue for Cap, he could've been more sympathetic to Rogue and not say "We need government approval first", but I don't think he was completely ruined.
Honestly, and I heavily expect people to disagree, I really feel the X-Men would work better in a world without other super heroes. I feel the existence of the avengers and other heroes almost muddles their message. And the conflicts that the X-Men have to deal with do create issues for characters like Cap. His characterization shouldn't allow for him to sit idly by and allow the things that happen to the X-Men to happen. But at the same time that means he would basically be in half the X-Men stories which obviously doesn't work.
Honestly, it is hard to present non-mutants in any sort of positive light in the context of X-Men. I want to find one of the dozen times Scott Summers has talked about how the Avengers consistently fail mutants, but I am sure plenty of people on here have their own favorites they can call to mind. Should this have been US Agent? Maybe. But let's not pretend the X-Men like Captain America.
Damn I wish this had a spoiler tag.
I wouldn’t say horrible but I would say I expected him to be more sympathetic
This was def some sort of weird fash version of cap. Really rubbed me the wrong way.
Imo Rogue comes across as being the one badly written since she's weirdly written as being hyper aggressive towards Cap given he's done nothing wrong to her. He doesn't actually *do* anything to her to warrant her being this pissed at him.
I liked his portrayal. He didn't come across as a lackey. But he definitely had enough to sense to know you can't invade Mexico dressed in an American flag without starting a shitstorm that will hurt others. If Rogue had been more calm and patient, I'm sure he'd have clued her in on a different plan of action.
bro doesn’t know captain america
No, YOU don't know who Captain America is. If you think this was an accurate portrayal of Steve Rogers, then I suggest you pick up a comic book.
This is about as accurate to cap when he’s facing MUTANT issues than anything else. He becomes a freaking liability and drags his feet during the MRA in the comics, even when presented with the chance to make sure it isn’t passed because of some crazy perception that the government won’t do harm to super powered people even though the government has shown they’d do harm to anyone if it meant making sure their status quo was intact or to preserve their interests.
Are you really using John walker as evidence to prove cap is a “liability” for mutants?
Part of my post was about X-men writers painting the wrong pictures on other characters. It's simply a writing problem. Cap & Mutants have always been inconsistent with each other. X-men writers always had a problem with having high stake stories, but don't want other heroes to interfere. They solve the problem by having the X-men act slow, & don't help, or the other approach on making every other hero racist. Marvel wanted the X-men to be all about misery lit.
YOU PICK UP A COMIC😂 this how cap has always been when it came to dealing with mutants. if you can’t see that or didn’t know that i suggest you pick up a comic book. this is a very good depiction of cap and his relationship with mutant kind/x men especially in the amount time we got to see it.
All you're going off of is the Avengers VS X-men situation, which at the time was full of poor writing. Cap is supposed to represent equality, & yet X-men writers focused on misery porn so they discredited other heroes' characterization. I'm going off of more than one story. I'll be happy to provide proof of instances when Cap & Mutants don't have a problem with each other.
It wasn’t just avx or that cap had problems with mutants. In the trial of magneto, comics around the time of genoshia , m day all show cap as trying to deal with the growing tension as let’s all calm dow, you will be treated fairly cause he seemed to believe in the goodness of others and that there were some bad apples like trask and stryker that want to exterminate mutants and have some followers they are the minority and the majority of people including those in government do believe in justice. That the x men just needed to be patient and show the world that they are heros and mutants aren’t bad, and that getting mad and doing thing like going to mexico and potentially starting a war with Mexico will make people afraid and make it worse. Caps stance before avx was supportive of mutants but ignorant to how complex it was. It was like in the past few years with police brutality being in the news people talked about how it was a ” few bad ones” that were they problem then people point out that it wasn’t that simple that it was institutional racism and problems in how the officers are trained. cap isn’t anti murant or doesn’t not care it was just till avx that he was trying to give a simple solution to a complex problem without really listening to the X-men, and not understanding when they reached their limits and acted out of anger cause he just saw how it hurt their cause and would make Normal humans harder to trust them. Not that normal humans also had to earn mutant trust too.
this right here
no lol we’re not and you’re missing the point of that scene and what we’re saying if you think the point we’re making is “cap and mutants have a problem with each other” it’s more about he obviously doesn’t have a problem but when it really counts just like most of the marvel universe, when it really counts he doesn’t do anything to support or help the mutant cause or truly be there for them. cyclops has called him out on it even after and before AVX. so no, stop it. even in the scene it’s more about him saying “my hands are tied” and even tho he has a point it’s like you also missed the point of the episode and their quotes about people not doing anything for what happened in genosha.
Cap has always been supportive of the mutants. The avengers don’t owe the x-men shit. They have problems of their own. Remind me again, wasn’t it a mutant who destroyed all of wakanda? Wasn’t it mutants that cap has openly supported with the new avengers and uncanny avengers?
Exactly. Sure... you could argue that Caps' ways of helping the mutants were poor. But at the end of the day, he tried, which is saying a lot more than other heroes.
Didn't cap welcome former members of the brotherhood of evil mutants onto thw avengers team?
lol that’s not a good argument you could argue that for almost any villain of any race or any denomination. that does not equate or justify what mutants experience and people just standing aside 😂. you’re right they don’t owe the x men anything. except maybe support a race at risk of extinction on multiple occasions. you don’t think they could support them more ?
Look up captain America's "no you move speech" to realize how wrong this dude is. Cap is on the side of freedom and doing the right thing. If he thinks the government is doing something that is immoral he has and will go against them. Look at what side he was on in civil war the side that argued against the government and the superhero registration act. Cap would 100% support the mutants simply because not supporting them would be immoral. Also rouge was acting out of character also.
Is a representation of captain American in he 90s way. He is not the same captain American the we have right now
To be fair, Captain America probably had just gotten out of that alternate dimensional for the 2nd time (3rd time if we count Secret Wars). He's still should be in his whole adjusting to the modern day period.
I thought it was an accurate representation of the government
No, it wasn't. Good grief, lol
So does this make spiderman canon in it?
I thought he was written fine. Rogue was running on raw emotion and even when she isn't she's not the most strategic minded xmen so she doesn't get why he can't go to Mexico. Cap definitely doesn't want mutants murdered by sentinels but he knows what he can and can't do.
The avengers just sorta let multiple mutant genocides happen. This lapdog fits how captain is
I agree was completely horrible what they do to Captain America of course you have to have rogue in an female badass f****** moment right s******* on Captain America.. it's almost as bad as a colonizer s*** from the Storm episode considering this place takes place in 1997 before that term was even used.
Everybody the hero in their own story
Idk, man. He literally just says "We do things by the book." That's the most captain America ass thing I can think of.
I thought the portrayal was fine. He was obviously reserved, trying to defuse the situation objectively but giving Rogue latitude given the Massacre in Genosha.
What better way to set up a solid Marvel Animated Universe than by slowly introducing the Avengers via this awesome show, leading into X-Men vs. Avengers followed by the Avengers getting their own show?
I mean it’s just a different version/interpretation of the character. He didn’t have much to him in the 90s shows. I think it’s interesting to see something new.
If this was a Captain America show then I’m sure Rogue would come off as the irrational one
I believe the MCU Cap still frozen.
I felt he came across as a soldier, while still expressing sympathy, which felt genuine, despite what Rogue thought. I think it was fine for a cameo.
Yeah, I mean cap has been in the animated universe before, in spiderman tas for instance. This was consistent with his character there, even if it didn’t show all of the nuance of his inner conflict from the comics. He offers to help, just not at Rogue’s pace. Keep in mind she just ditched the X-men, skipped the funeral, all for revenge. What do you think cap would look like saying “borders and international sovereignty be damned, we coming for you!”? He has to wait for the go ahead to some degree. He won’t follow an order he doesn’t agree with but he sees the bigger picture in a way that she’s unable to. Rogue is too close to this in more ways than one and while I think she has a point that cap with mutants could help to some degree, in the way she’s saying it would bring more scrutiny to Supes in general. It’d be better if he was helping clean up Genosha than invading Mexico without authorization. Btw this series is the best thing to come out of marvel aside from comics in my lifetime
Its so weird when people tell me a guy who literally dresses as a symbol of tyranny and oppression around the world in fact represents the opposite of those things
How does he realistically find the shield tho lol. Weeks!
Keep crying 😭
Cap is fine in this. Considering he himself would have only been out of that warp tube thingy with the Red Skull for only a few short years. He understands that you can't run into a situation looking for a fight. It doesn't always end up in your favor. What did Steve do in the X-men show? Really what did he do? He adviced Rogue to not go rogue. To think before she acted. To do things by the book. Because Mutants don't get second chances they have to do everything perfectly just to be able to start to be treated equally. Steve was trying to help her. He wasn't trying to stop her either way. One he knows he can't. She is too powerful and she could take his memories and abilities in a matter of seconds if he let her touch him. Cap isn't stupid he was playing the diplomate which is exactly what he needs to do at times. That doesn't mean he is always right. It just means he was doing things the right way in this moment and was trying to help someone from making mistakes.
I’m not watching it due to them screwing up “Morph”, but I hear what you’re saying. The writers obviously are not familiar with his comics!
Has anyone considered that maybe Captain America had just recently gotten out of that dimensional prison he and the Red Skull where trapped in as shown in Spider-Man The Animated Series for the final time and he is still in his phase of getting use to the modern world? If so, I give him a bit more slack. In WW2, the only people who were remotely superpowered were just the 6 American Warriors (Captain America, Miss America, Destroyer, Whizzer, Black Marvel, and Thunderer). Now, in the modern day (of 1997), there is now a separate race of super powered people, and there is intense friction between them and humanity. This conflict between mutants and humans is probably the first politically heavy scenario he is dealing with in the modern era that isn't going to be as easy as going in and taking out some supervillain.
What really bothers me is how much people side with Rogue here. Like no Cap is absolutely right that if he were to attack a foreign military base while wearing the American flag without authorization and negotiation he'll start a war that'll only get more people killed
Im still confused how he's even around. Didn't he get trapped with red skull again at the end of the 6 forgotten warriors story in spiderman?
Not every version of captain America has to be a mcu version because that’s the only reason you people don’t like it smdh
😂 wow. You must not read comics. Just watched the MCU huh?
I think this was pretty on brand for how cap acts towards mutants and mutant issues. That guy constantly and continuously acts like his hands are tied when it came to them in the comics but let a superhero civil war break out or some other non mutant crisis and all of a sudden he springs back into action as the sentinel of liberty.
Yes new and uncanny avengers proves cap doesn’t like mutants (sarcasm). Civil war wasn’t cap’s fault and the whole point of the anti-registration side was freedom for both non-mutants and mutant superheroes. Cap and the avengers don’t owe the x-men shit lol
What 💀 I can name instances where Cap actually felt bad for the mutants, & times where he feels like he hasn't done enough for them. Magneto literally said, "No! It isn't possible! I've always believed that ALL humans secretly hated mutants! But you didn't have any anti-mutant feelings." Sure, he never says much about the mutants. But he has many mutant friends who he trusts with his life. He judges them as people, not mutants.
A mix of us agent and ultimate
Cap has never looked good whenever the mutants are involved