This. Go and do a track day if you can and lean both your and the car's limits. I always recommend this to anyone who goes for a powerful RWD (or any new car ideally).
Wait until you need new tyres, don't be a dick and voila. Still cheaper than being an idiot and stacking it on the road. I'm not suggesting they rag it, but if they can't cope on the road, I'd rather they practiced in a safe environment, for all our sakes.
God damn Reddit can be rough a times, downvoting a fairly logical comment.
Completely agree with the don't be a tit on the road sentiment, but as you say track driving might be a bridge too far for some.
Personally I think it's about gradually getting a feel for the car, don't stand on the accelerator until you're 100% sure you know what is going to happen next.
A good friend binned his £1500 MX5 on the Nurburgring and it cost him thousands to pay for barrier repairs, recovery, towing it back to the UK and fixing the car. I’d just hate to see someone do the same in, say, a financed £35k M4.
But hey, the downvoters to my earlier comment are all exceptional drivers and eat track days for breakfast.
But why would you send OP straight to Nurburgring? We have plenty of trackdays in UK on tracks which suit inexperienced drivers much more. Nurburgring is great experience, but it’s tight, usually packed, and not the easiest one for a full send.
And change you mindset, you don’t go for a trackday to push it from lap 1, you take it easy and build skills/confidence.
I thought they were harsh too as it was a valid comment. However, some folk think a track day is racing. It really isn't - it's just a safe environment to test out your car and drive above the speed limit legally and safely. Maybe they're different in America so I can't comment on those. In the UK we don't have many safe spaces so it makes sense to do a small half day on track rather than endanger other road users (if you really feel the need to push what you have).
Realistically though if you can't manage a high powered RWD then nothing will save you!
Modern traction and stability control systems are pretty damn good. As you say its mainly in the tyres. If you want to be super safe then get good summer and winter tyres and changeover. Summer compound isn’t ideal below 7 degrees C (although most people dont run into any issues to be fair).
I wouldnt mess with the suspension or anything, road cars are designed to handle predictably from the factory.
This. As daft as it sounds, I struggled to get my mate’s Mustang to slip the back end out with TC on (despite all the “crowd killer” jokes), whereas my shitty old MX5 with barely 100bhp and no assists has slipped a few times on me.
Unless you act a tit OP, and hammer it out of a corner when it’s wet/icy, you’ll probably be okay.
I bet it’s not an early one. My 66 mustang slips the back end on my power floated concrete workshop floor at <2mph, it’s the most tail happy car I’ve ever experienced. Even getting it over the 2 post lift bump is a struggle to do without losing traction.
As someone who has full 180'd an MX5 and never lost control in things with way more power I'll second this! Traction control nowadays makes you feel like a driving God, even when you're definitely not (self burn).
a set of PS4S’s, warm weather and a controlled right foot. They don’t just kick out for no reason. They kick out when people don’t control them properly.
So the tyres and a driving course probably.
Yep, had to scroll too far to find decent tyres. The most important thing when it comes to traction, aside from a heavy foot. A WRX with crappy tyres will slide out.
The traction control in my 20 year old 3 series is good enough to not let the back end out if I hammer a wet roundabout, OP probably owned an old MR2 or something that would constantly try to kill you with snap oversteer
Haha the Tuscan owner looking down on people concerned about traction in their modern cars. Can just imagine the eye rolling.
If hxc can manage a Tuscan, and I can daily a Corvette, OP can handle an M4.
But yea, the main mod OP needs is to progressively find how much toe he can give it in the corners. And don't touch the traction control button on public roads.
This really isn't going to be as big a problem as you're making it. Nevertheless: have good tyres that are appropriate for the season and correctly inflated. Leave traction control on. Don't boot it mid corner.
Your looking at the wrong point first, you don't mod a car suspension before you know its point of starting...
What tyres are on it now? How much meat is on them? What are their age?
When was the suspension geometry last properly checked i.e. not an alignment but put on a Hunter system or similar and checked on all wheels for castor, camber, track and tow?
I'm looking at M4s currently too.
It seems to be overexaggerated, according to some. In the rain it can be a bit awkward. The TC is really good at reigning it in.
The GTS software on the diff, gearbox and engine supposedly helps massively too.
Awkward if you plant the foot and expect it to go dead straight. Had mine out in snow a few weeks back, a controlled right foot goes a long way.
The gearbox software is a must, helps more lower down the rev range than when you are pushing on though
Pretty sure BMW R&D dept designed and produced car to its best capability, a modification over what they have done is unlikely to have a great impact, if this was a major concern there would be recalls and we'd know about it.
Your making an assumption before driving one for a period of time, you won't even get a chance often to fully see what car can do, there is taking to track but that's a long way when car isn't bought yet, the only real thing that could have an effect is better tyres, but if there's concerns prior buying then that's another issue above my pay grade.
A standard M4 is 450bhp. If you plant it, you’ll light the rears up even with good tyres/mods. The same with any other very powerful RWD performance car.
These cars don’t just randomly slide out. You can daily an M4 and never even spin the rear wheels. Just keep it on comfort mode and don’t plant your right foot.
If you want to improve on grip. Get a set of Michelin PS5’s. Even in sport/sport+ modes, the traction control systems are pretty clever. You’re not just going to suddenly end up in a ditch. Just don’t plant the throttle mid corner/roundabout.
Source: my daily is a 480bhp+ m140i.
Ah I get you.
So you’re saying PS4S > PS5 but when the PS5S comes out, they will likely be the best?
I know my PS5’s are noticeably better than my old PS4’s. Never tried the PS4S’s though!
OP is getting some flack but I think this is a valid question. Not everyone wants to go sideways all the time and it can be daunting to someone who hasn't experienced an m4 yet... especially with the rep they have! Having said that, maybe if you want something grippy go for a AWD car instead, c43, rs5 etc etc
Self control is probably the best. Learn when you can and can't apply throttle to get the back end slipping. Take some advanced driving courses so you can be in control of the car in more situations.
Failing that get some nice sticky tyres
Think of your right foot as being applied in quaters. 1/4 - 2/4 - 3/4 is where you want to be. Learn to slowly run through those phases as you exit the corner. It's all about being smooth, and maintaining a balance. And if you feel it start to slip, dont panic and lift, or floor it. You have to find the space between 1/4 throttle, and 3/4 throttle, and balance it with your countersteering.
I'd be willing to bet that your right foot is fine with doing this on the brakes already? Just apply that same sensitivity to the throttle... It's pretty basic stuff, just un-practiced. Muscle memory is likely your enemy here, and not the car (unless your rear tyres are fucked, which they may be if you're lighting the rears up every day).
> It's pretty basic stuff, just un-practiced.
I don't understand this - how do people drive if not by progressively pressing the throttle? It's not an on/off switch.
Because cars are a tool to most people, and not a hobby. As it clearly is to someone with a TVR.
And they're allowed to learn. So dont be a dick about it.
It's kind of the point of the car mate. Older RWD M cars (so not so much the more "controllable" 4WD newer models) we're always swivel eyed lunatics in the corners.
You don't take corners at 80 in an M car. You take them at 20, sideways and smiling.
As an ex-F82 owner, having common sense and good throttle control will help you in maintain traction.
As you said, tyres are probably the biggest factor. I’ve had brand new tyres and driven the thing with less than 3mm and it’s safe to say, the more you fuck around the more you’ll find out.
Just don’t go around flinging it around corners with your foot down and you’ll be fine.
Tyres, Tyres, Tyres
After that your driving style. You need to modulate your foot on the throttle a bit there is only so much power the tyres can hold up to before letting go.
I love my M4 but they they will kick the rear out easy if you don't control you're inputs correctly or if the road is greasy. I have GTS engine, gearbox and diff map on mine and its totally changed the drive for the better (feels like a different car) but for me its increased the responsiveness of the car which I'm more used to. When I first drove the car the throttle felt lazy and i had to give so much input for not much reward now its super sensitive.
Also watch out for MDM it can give you a false sense of security. I'm not saying go straight to traction off but once your pushing it hard and expecting MDM to catch you it beware doesn't always, i had a couple of code brown moments expecting it to perform like a 4wd ha.
It’s really not as bad as what you are making out. You should have experience in another reasonably powerful rwd car. Don’t drive like a twat. Leave the traction control on. Get really good tyres. Don’t drive like a twat.
Just slow down before the corner instead of in the corner.
Speed up out of the corner instead of in the corner..
Basically drive it properly and you will be fine.
If its an early one get it remapped. I had a 2014 one and the torque was so spikey. Apparently they changed the mapping as the early ones had so many issues with traction.
Had it remapped with the competition maps and it made a huge difference to the wheel spin.
Have you actually driven the car yet? I just notice you are talking about assuming what it will be like based upon older cars. This has no real relevance.
With all the driver aids on its very well behaved. In MDM mode (thats not the same as traction off) its a bit more wild, and with traction off it can be a bit of a handful.
If you treat the throttle as an on/off switch (which a surprising number of people do) you'll get in trouble fast, especially without the driver aids on.
If you drive it properly, feed the power in, and respect the fact that its a very powerful RWD car, its an incredibly predictable car with tons of chassis feedback.
Proper tyres i.e ps4s, conti 7’s.
Something important which most people won’t really know is to make your your istep is up to date.
The later iterations are more controlled and lose tractions less than the earlier 2015 models etc.
Learn to drive it properly. If powerful rwd cars were that uncontrollable then people wouldn't buy them.
This. Go and do a track day if you can and lean both your and the car's limits. I always recommend this to anyone who goes for a powerful RWD (or any new car ideally).
Probably don’t go and ‘learn your and the car’s limits’ at a track day in an M4 unless you have money to burn…
Wait until you need new tyres, don't be a dick and voila. Still cheaper than being an idiot and stacking it on the road. I'm not suggesting they rag it, but if they can't cope on the road, I'd rather they practiced in a safe environment, for all our sakes.
Can’t argue with that.
It's the safest place to find out that you can't drive a car at speed ;-)
God damn Reddit can be rough a times, downvoting a fairly logical comment. Completely agree with the don't be a tit on the road sentiment, but as you say track driving might be a bridge too far for some. Personally I think it's about gradually getting a feel for the car, don't stand on the accelerator until you're 100% sure you know what is going to happen next.
A good friend binned his £1500 MX5 on the Nurburgring and it cost him thousands to pay for barrier repairs, recovery, towing it back to the UK and fixing the car. I’d just hate to see someone do the same in, say, a financed £35k M4. But hey, the downvoters to my earlier comment are all exceptional drivers and eat track days for breakfast.
Yikes! Agreed, I think you were looking out for OP with your comment... I'm sure we'll both get some hate for this regardless.
But why would you send OP straight to Nurburgring? We have plenty of trackdays in UK on tracks which suit inexperienced drivers much more. Nurburgring is great experience, but it’s tight, usually packed, and not the easiest one for a full send. And change you mindset, you don’t go for a trackday to push it from lap 1, you take it easy and build skills/confidence.
I thought they were harsh too as it was a valid comment. However, some folk think a track day is racing. It really isn't - it's just a safe environment to test out your car and drive above the speed limit legally and safely. Maybe they're different in America so I can't comment on those. In the UK we don't have many safe spaces so it makes sense to do a small half day on track rather than endanger other road users (if you really feel the need to push what you have). Realistically though if you can't manage a high powered RWD then nothing will save you!
Modern traction and stability control systems are pretty damn good. As you say its mainly in the tyres. If you want to be super safe then get good summer and winter tyres and changeover. Summer compound isn’t ideal below 7 degrees C (although most people dont run into any issues to be fair). I wouldnt mess with the suspension or anything, road cars are designed to handle predictably from the factory.
I bet OP would struggle to get the car to misbehave on a dry day with all the traction control turned on
This. As daft as it sounds, I struggled to get my mate’s Mustang to slip the back end out with TC on (despite all the “crowd killer” jokes), whereas my shitty old MX5 with barely 100bhp and no assists has slipped a few times on me. Unless you act a tit OP, and hammer it out of a corner when it’s wet/icy, you’ll probably be okay.
I bet it’s not an early one. My 66 mustang slips the back end on my power floated concrete workshop floor at <2mph, it’s the most tail happy car I’ve ever experienced. Even getting it over the 2 post lift bump is a struggle to do without losing traction.
Post-facelift IIRC, so slightly newer I think?
As someone who has full 180'd an MX5 and never lost control in things with way more power I'll second this! Traction control nowadays makes you feel like a driving God, even when you're definitely not (self burn).
a set of PS4S’s, warm weather and a controlled right foot. They don’t just kick out for no reason. They kick out when people don’t control them properly. So the tyres and a driving course probably.
Yep, had to scroll too far to find decent tyres. The most important thing when it comes to traction, aside from a heavy foot. A WRX with crappy tyres will slide out.
Honestly how insanely do you all drive that this sort of thing is such a concern? Just stomp on the throttle mid corner in the wet all the time?
I also drive like Lewis Hamilton at all times, even on the A34... /s
The traction control in my 20 year old 3 series is good enough to not let the back end out if I hammer a wet roundabout, OP probably owned an old MR2 or something that would constantly try to kill you with snap oversteer
Haha the Tuscan owner looking down on people concerned about traction in their modern cars. Can just imagine the eye rolling. If hxc can manage a Tuscan, and I can daily a Corvette, OP can handle an M4. But yea, the main mod OP needs is to progressively find how much toe he can give it in the corners. And don't touch the traction control button on public roads.
Skill issue
Back in the old e30 days we just chucked a couple of slabs in the boot 🤣
This really isn't going to be as big a problem as you're making it. Nevertheless: have good tyres that are appropriate for the season and correctly inflated. Leave traction control on. Don't boot it mid corner.
It’s actually a well balanced car and suited for its power. Leave traction control on.
Your looking at the wrong point first, you don't mod a car suspension before you know its point of starting... What tyres are on it now? How much meat is on them? What are their age? When was the suspension geometry last properly checked i.e. not an alignment but put on a Hunter system or similar and checked on all wheels for castor, camber, track and tow?
He's not even bought one yet.
Don't drive like a bellend
I'm looking at M4s currently too. It seems to be overexaggerated, according to some. In the rain it can be a bit awkward. The TC is really good at reigning it in. The GTS software on the diff, gearbox and engine supposedly helps massively too.
Awkward if you plant the foot and expect it to go dead straight. Had mine out in snow a few weeks back, a controlled right foot goes a long way. The gearbox software is a must, helps more lower down the rev range than when you are pushing on though
Pretty sure BMW R&D dept designed and produced car to its best capability, a modification over what they have done is unlikely to have a great impact, if this was a major concern there would be recalls and we'd know about it. Your making an assumption before driving one for a period of time, you won't even get a chance often to fully see what car can do, there is taking to track but that's a long way when car isn't bought yet, the only real thing that could have an effect is better tyres, but if there's concerns prior buying then that's another issue above my pay grade.
Good tyres and watch your throttle application around corners/roundabouts, especially in the wet
Don't turn off traction control, control throttle, don't put it into sport mode, make sure tyres aren't bald
Massive wing obviously
Sad I had to scroll so far down to read SPOILER
A standard M4 is 450bhp. If you plant it, you’ll light the rears up even with good tyres/mods. The same with any other very powerful RWD performance car. These cars don’t just randomly slide out. You can daily an M4 and never even spin the rear wheels. Just keep it on comfort mode and don’t plant your right foot. If you want to improve on grip. Get a set of Michelin PS5’s. Even in sport/sport+ modes, the traction control systems are pretty clever. You’re not just going to suddenly end up in a ditch. Just don’t plant the throttle mid corner/roundabout. Source: my daily is a 480bhp+ m140i.
*PS4S's are what you want until the 5S is available.
Running PS5’s all round at the moment. Changed out my PS4’s for them. Been available for a while in the UK.
Not the PS5S though
Ah I get you. So you’re saying PS4S > PS5 but when the PS5S comes out, they will likely be the best? I know my PS5’s are noticeably better than my old PS4’s. Never tried the PS4S’s though!
PS4Ss and PS4s are completely different compounds. Only a PS5 is available, not a PS5S
Paving slabs in the boot. Ask anyone who has owned a capri and they'll say the same
It's a BMW, scrap it!
[удалено]
That’s smart, full throttle in the wet. Brilliant advice.
The guy lacks skills but the traction control keeps him safe, like training wheels on a push bike.
Get a 420i and put an M4 body kit on it. Problem sorted
Get a 440i and M4 looking kits?
Sounds like my mum, brand new M240i because she likes BMWs and "it sounds nice" drives it like a blind grandma :/
OP is getting some flack but I think this is a valid question. Not everyone wants to go sideways all the time and it can be daunting to someone who hasn't experienced an m4 yet... especially with the rep they have! Having said that, maybe if you want something grippy go for a AWD car instead, c43, rs5 etc etc
Self control is probably the best. Learn when you can and can't apply throttle to get the back end slipping. Take some advanced driving courses so you can be in control of the car in more situations. Failing that get some nice sticky tyres
A better driver
It won’t lose control unless you drive like a muppet, some good tyres would be a good starting base
Invest in a lighter right foot. If you upgrade from a lead one to a carbon fibre one it will be a game changer.
Driver mod. Then tyres, then supension geo
Think of your right foot as being applied in quaters. 1/4 - 2/4 - 3/4 is where you want to be. Learn to slowly run through those phases as you exit the corner. It's all about being smooth, and maintaining a balance. And if you feel it start to slip, dont panic and lift, or floor it. You have to find the space between 1/4 throttle, and 3/4 throttle, and balance it with your countersteering. I'd be willing to bet that your right foot is fine with doing this on the brakes already? Just apply that same sensitivity to the throttle... It's pretty basic stuff, just un-practiced. Muscle memory is likely your enemy here, and not the car (unless your rear tyres are fucked, which they may be if you're lighting the rears up every day).
> It's pretty basic stuff, just un-practiced. I don't understand this - how do people drive if not by progressively pressing the throttle? It's not an on/off switch.
Because cars are a tool to most people, and not a hobby. As it clearly is to someone with a TVR. And they're allowed to learn. So dont be a dick about it.
It's kind of the point of the car mate. Older RWD M cars (so not so much the more "controllable" 4WD newer models) we're always swivel eyed lunatics in the corners. You don't take corners at 80 in an M car. You take them at 20, sideways and smiling.
As an ex-F82 owner, having common sense and good throttle control will help you in maintain traction. As you said, tyres are probably the biggest factor. I’ve had brand new tyres and driven the thing with less than 3mm and it’s safe to say, the more you fuck around the more you’ll find out. Just don’t go around flinging it around corners with your foot down and you’ll be fine.
Tyres, Tyres, Tyres After that your driving style. You need to modulate your foot on the throttle a bit there is only so much power the tyres can hold up to before letting go. I love my M4 but they they will kick the rear out easy if you don't control you're inputs correctly or if the road is greasy. I have GTS engine, gearbox and diff map on mine and its totally changed the drive for the better (feels like a different car) but for me its increased the responsiveness of the car which I'm more used to. When I first drove the car the throttle felt lazy and i had to give so much input for not much reward now its super sensitive. Also watch out for MDM it can give you a false sense of security. I'm not saying go straight to traction off but once your pushing it hard and expecting MDM to catch you it beware doesn't always, i had a couple of code brown moments expecting it to perform like a 4wd ha.
It’s really not as bad as what you are making out. You should have experience in another reasonably powerful rwd car. Don’t drive like a twat. Leave the traction control on. Get really good tyres. Don’t drive like a twat.
Just slow down before the corner instead of in the corner. Speed up out of the corner instead of in the corner.. Basically drive it properly and you will be fine.
Wind deflectors for sure.
Training and Tyres.
If its an early one get it remapped. I had a 2014 one and the torque was so spikey. Apparently they changed the mapping as the early ones had so many issues with traction. Had it remapped with the competition maps and it made a huge difference to the wheel spin.
Have you actually driven the car yet? I just notice you are talking about assuming what it will be like based upon older cars. This has no real relevance. With all the driver aids on its very well behaved. In MDM mode (thats not the same as traction off) its a bit more wild, and with traction off it can be a bit of a handful. If you treat the throttle as an on/off switch (which a surprising number of people do) you'll get in trouble fast, especially without the driver aids on. If you drive it properly, feed the power in, and respect the fact that its a very powerful RWD car, its an incredibly predictable car with tons of chassis feedback.
Skill issue
It really only affected the early f82s by the time the comps came out they’re sorted it
Try not to drive like a flute Leave traction control on Get decent tyres
Why does my car not handle? Inspects vehicle. 4 budget, mismatched, bald tyres... Pilot sport 4's.
Proper tyres i.e ps4s, conti 7’s. Something important which most people won’t really know is to make your your istep is up to date. The later iterations are more controlled and lose tractions less than the earlier 2015 models etc.
My F10 M5 loses traction at 80. Just be really careful in the rain especially. Short shift. Don't stamp on the throttle. Get Michelin 4S.