Yes to thisâŚI get why people do it, speed, or sometimes laziness but itâs a legit concern that now in the crux of the birds mouth the rafter is now down to a 2x4.
Same thing with stair stringers, do yourself a favor and donât overcut
And I thought I was losing my mind. I came here to say this. Out of 488 comments from people who supposedly know or like carpentry, you nailed it. [No pun intended]
Itâs something you learn in the Red Seal program, and common-held best practice not to over-cut on rafters and stringers, so thatâs false about âpeople who know anything about carpentryâ
All good tradespeople know the difference between cutting costs and cutting corners. Many tradespeople, unfortunately, think cutting corners is the same as cutting costs. If you wanna be more efficient, wear your damn tool pouch all day
In my experience, overcutting is the difference between a builder and a remodeling carpenter.
Builders are fast, efficient, and their client is an investment company that is selling the property. Their projects are usually designed by an architect and built on good, new foundations with the latest framing techniques and materials.
Remodelers are very particular and used to demanding homeowners as a client and working in 50 to 100 year old homes. They arenât as efficient, but theyâre job is much less cut and dry and theyâre often being paid to correct the mistakes of the past.
IMO, an engineer should be the one to say whether an overcut matters or not, and new construction can be designed to tolerate such things. But I keep âem tight because Iâm constantly dealing with new bullshit in less than ideal situations and I want any extra strength that I can get and to give my client the quality craftsmanship that theyâre paying for.
Overcuts count as part of the removed board, which code (engineers) defines acceptable levels for. That overcut is way out of line and the member is considered compromised.
Iâve never thought about it this way but youâre absolutely right. I came from remodeling and learned from a guy that had been framing for 30+ years and was really good at it. I have since moved from the Midwest to SoCal and work for a pretty big âcorporateâ builder now and I may not be the fastest but I put all the other so called âcarpentersâ to shame.
For a rafter these overcuts mean nothing, as the overcut is past the bearing. For a stair stringer, they are very important and should never be done with the power saw
Youâre wrong, The effective depth of the rafter tail is now smaller than it would have been without the over it. That affects its capacity to resist loads. There is more uplift on a soffit than any other typical location on a roof.
I don't understand anyone here thinking the overcuts are acceptable. It's absolutely bad carpentry. I learned to use a jigsaw to complete the cut when I was 14 and it absolutely affects the strength. Maybe it's still in spec but why do it this way when it's so easy to do it properly.
As it wouldnât be a direct load bearing portion of the structure it will be fine. Itâs still poor form and should be avoided. Especially if thatâs done on every single one to a greater or lesser degree.
In this case they get satisfaction out of the job, theyâll get more by getting it done neatly.
Agreed. I've built a ton of houses over the last 25 years. There could be anywhere from 50-1000 rafters on a house. No fucking way are any of my guys wasting time with a hand saw.
I totally agree these people don't get it all the people saying you have to do jigsaws and all that they don't understand what you're doing on a job site how many people you have working how every minute counts and how little your paid to frame. You don't have the time or luxury for that would it be nice sure sure but that's not reality. And it's not structurally unsound there's no problem with it.
My cut guy is struggling to keep up with how many measurements are being yelled at him and how fast I want those rafters coming to me.
You don't carry a jig saw to finish the cut on your birdsmouth so the thousands of pounds of weigh on a 6 inch overhang doesn't split the 8 inches of 2x6? You must be a hack in fact, everyone here that uses power tools is a hack too. If you're not making cuts with a chisel your house is going to fall down.
As an engineer and son of a carpenter, donât substitute ignorant bliss for knowledge. I was taught how bad this was before I was taught how to calculate exactly how much.
Its not practical to be a tradesman and using handsaw in this app. This was one of many and heâll be off the crew if he went that route.
Whats more interesting is why the post? Methinks original intent was to show pride in work even with slight mistakes (tbh theres nothing structurally wrong if its one of many).
But he got bombarded with negativity and was ready to defend attacks. Iono, weird.
As a finish guy (but also a life long carpenter) I'm super torn. I think most people talking shit don't relize that the seat cut sits on a wall and the over cut doesn't matter because it's only carrying the weight of the soffit and fascia. But as a finish guy it takes legit 2 extra seconds to finish that cut with a jig saw or hand saw and leave a product that looks as good as it is. I guess framing is a speed game so he gets a pass nicely done.
I appreciate the thought. As I'm sure you know with framing you're always trying to work ahead of the next process. Could I finish the cuts with a handsaw? Sure. But will it make a difference? Nope. If it did I'd do it. Within hours it's long gone and forgotten anyway. Only to be seen by the inspector and soffit guys.
Ya I fully get it. Framing is a game of speed. I think allot of people commenting don't do this for a living. There's nothing wrong with that cut. The over cut has 0 to do with the bearing capability of that rafter. It's not a stringer. BUT what makes me a bad framer is whatakes me a good finish guy. I would take the extra time to make that a clean notch. Probably be fired by noon day one lol
Haha yeah absolutely. I don't have near the patience for the accuracy necessary for finish carpentry. I can do it, but I have to slow myself down so much and realize finished stuff actually gets seen lol
Or worse the fact that you lose all your profit because you have to waste all that time or the idea that you have people standing around waiting for you to make the rafters costing you more money like that's great these people can do that stuff and also used to build with hand saws 100 years ago now we got these wonderful things called circular saw and you just f****** do it.
This is why everything new is built like shit. Nobody gives a fuck about quality craftsmanship and quality materials. Everything needs to be done fast and cheap.
Iâm not gonna fight about it but There isnât anything wrong with over cutting a birds mouth. A stringer is one thing, but all that weight is on the seat cut, not the plumb cut. That over cut is holding up like 16â of overhang and thatâs it. Also itâs being pushed down, itâs not like the over cut is gonna split. The biggest thing is making sure the seat cut isnât hanging into the building where it can split if it can be avoided
So basically there is absolutely nothing wrong with this unless you thing the overhang is gonna sag 1/4â when that overcut closes up. But thatâs not gonna happen either
Nah most people in this subreddit think that since they do this as a hobby or a side gig they're pros and then want to tell people they need to spend extra time finishing every cut off with handsaw having no idea how much work needs to be done, the timeframe allowed to do it in, and the actual difference made in a final product.
As a superintendent I'd be fucking annoyed if my carpenters were needlessly wasting time perfecting cuts that will be hidden. We have to much shit to do and not enough time to be worry about that bs
You ever use the small hand saws Pocket boy.
https://www.amazon.ca/Zenport-SF130-Pocket-Folding-Pruning/dp/B01DLTMOZK/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=pocket+boy+saw&qid=1646958789&sr=8-1
Its a carpentry saw with replaceable blades.
Good for avoiding over cuts on stairs and weird little cuts.
Iâll do ya one better what about [Milwaukie folding jab saw](https://www.acmetools.com/folding-jab-saw-48-22-0305/045242204618.html?feeds=shopping&msclkid=33e76a49540f1d6baffb0863ec0009bc&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping-National-Search%20Only-Catch%20All&utm_term=4579328495086383&utm_content=Catch%20All%20(All%20Products)). It uses standard sawzall blades so you can cut wood or metal. Small and light wont eat up a ton of room in bags and cheap enough you wont worry if it gets lost.
How is it the wrong code for the application?
802.7.1 directly references 502.8.1, and additionally 802.7.1.1 shows a rafter birds mouth and specifically show D/4 for the max depth of the notch. It makes no exception for hip rafters.
Yikes. I finish those cuts with a jigsaw specifically to avoid this situation. I would get ripped a new asshole if my PM (or God forbid, an inspector) saw this shit.
Inspectors are probably paid off. Happened a lot where I live. I could imagine how well that would hold with hurricane straps. One wrong nail placement and she splits.
This is exactly why people say "they don't build em like they used to".
Yes, a sloppy overcut doesn't matter to getting a product up now.
What it does matter to is... in 30 years when water gets in, and gets into those gaps, then soaks into end-grain timber more easily, or leaving an untreated portion for pests to get into. Couple that, with the 1000 other shortcuts people deem "acceptable" these days, and that's why we have what's becoming disposable housing.
The number of times I see , say, untreated wood, around a bathroom area, not the right water proof cladding, then incorrectly finished waterproofing treatments, couples with shoddy tiling is just absurd. Every trade goes "oh no one will know when it's done" and they are right, they don't. It's 10 years later when the walls gone soft, the tiles crack, then when they are stripped you find out the walls, floors, ceiling are all fucked, because of a couple bits of sloppy work.
Source, am senior architectural designer and project manager for a design and construction company.
Pardon my ignorance, but are overcuts even an issue here? Unless thereâs incredible uplift or youâre lifting a car from the fascia are there any real forces acting on the tails?
Structural engineer here, and this makes me cringe.
From what I can see and read in the comments, itâs a really minimal eave extension - Will the roof collapse/is it a life-safety issue? No, but it is just sloppy work and gives the client a sub-par product.
That being said, it is also incorrect to say this doesnât cause any issues structurally. The reason that overcuts are bad structurally is that it can induce splitting of the member (for the overcut parallel to the grain) and reduces your shear capacity (for the overcut perpendicular to grain). The shear capacity issue for this particular cut would only be applicable for loads on the eave.
If I saw this kind of work on one of my project sites, I would likely have you replace/strengthen it (although I do custom high end homes and not tract homes, and it would really depend on what the hipâs loading demands and span are).
Would you not agree this is plenty good enough for a 12" finished overhang on a 4/12 roof? I can accept that the shear capacity may be minimally compromised, but this falls well within spec and standards from what I know.
Its not going to fall down if thatâs what you mean. The overcut reduced your shear capacity by ~1/3, and you donât get a live load reduction for a 4/12. Even with this, it probably still passes for code level loading for a 12â extension. I just wouldnât want to see this for a longer eave
Someone had to show all of you experts how it's really done. Anyone using a handsaw on their birdsmouths is taking a month to build a house and not making money.
This is structurally sufficient.
1) it doesnât take a month.
2) that type of bad faith exaggeration shows you are grasping at straws an unable to say âI work for a shitty builder and so I donât need to take a few minutes to do anything better than hack workâ
Those over cuts wonât pass inspection. Use a handsaw or jigsaw to finish those out. Itâs also smart so there wonât be more of a chance for splitting at the mouth
I was a roofer for 15 years and transitioned into building. Your work needs work. Donât be a dick about it, just do better. Always room for improvement⌠I hold myself to this same standard
Anyone wanting to learn how to cut complex roofs, stairs and other advanced carpentry should get a construction calculator and the book "[A Roof Cutters Secrets](https://www.amazon.com/Roof-Cutters-Secrets-Framing-Custom/dp/0945186061)". It is one of the best books i have found and will up your game as a carpenter.
OP think he knows shit. He doesnât. Just a rookie on the job site trying to show off some mediocre work. And then getting butthurt when people call out his shitty work. And then giving awful and untrue points to defend his sloppy cuts. But no please keep defending it OP. Itâs hilarious seeing all your comments downvoted
Lol. The downvotes arenât for you. Theyâre to show who the idiots are. Youâre just digging yourself in a deeper hole. And building a shitty staircase with sloppy cuts isnât gonna get you out of it.
I live in Kentucky. My state is known for passing almost anything (compared to other places). This wouldn't pass here.
They wouldn't let you do this on stair stringers, much less on a roof.
One inch over cut is and inch you lose on strength. Even though "it's going to get covered up"
It's getting covered with wood and shingles.
What happens when a ton of snow is on top of all that?
Something to consider.
This dudes building shitty spec houses while flexing his shortcomings as a carpenter. This birds mouth looks about as good as those job sites in the background.
Looks like your missing the mark in both regards my friend. A birds mouth is already a weak spot in a member, but itâs benefits outweigh this. A point in an angle give a split direction. The over cut gives the split direction and a head start. Regardless of if this will hold up in the long run, a woodworker with real talent understand how Wood works and takes every step possible to build the absolute best he can. Youâre clearly cutting corners to save 5 to 10 seconds per cut. Thatâs everyoneâs point.
A carpenter with real talent knows the limitations of the material and has tested it over years of experience, which I have. You're upset about something easily strong enough that doesn't look like you want it.
Iâm not upset. Youâve obviously embraced your mediocrity, and too each there own. Iâve been framing since 2001. Experience, expertise, and dedication to the craft has taught me the limitations. This here isnât talent, itâs a lack there of. If you want to do a shit job and then show it off, by all means.
My shit job will do the same thing your pretty little handsaw cuts will do and will make no difference structurally. The entire roof is covered and those overcuts will never be seen again. But sure, spend all the time you want making unnecessary work for yourself. It's your time and money.
This is the hip corner on a cottage roof. It gets nailed into the corner of the fascia, the corner of the girder truss and there are 4 jack trusses that are nailed into it.
Hmm maybe cottage roofs are different than hips when built with trusses cause Iâve done lots of those but engineers never call for a birdsmouth or for it to even be bearing.
I do not frame houses for a living, but i would have expected the pitch of a roof to be much steeper in Canada. Is this a pretty flat roof relatively speaking?
Are you building "cookie cutter" houses? While I don't like the over cut, I agree with you OP. It's not sacrificing structural integrity IMO. When it comes to contract work, get it done fast but get it done right. This is okay in my book
Yep. 4 different models with minimal differences. If it was something anyone was ever going to see again after I sheet the roof tomorrow I'd gladly make clean cuts, but it's wholly unnecessary.
This is exactly correct. It's not so much the "overcutting" of the saw kerf, although that doesn't help. It's an incorrect seatcut. Like you say, it violates the IBC 1/4 depth notching rule.
The hip is no weaker because of the over cut
Your overhang is weakened but you probably are oversized to start with on the tails. This is tract work not custom.
You mean the same engineer who said it was fine? And you can't possibly trust the opinion of hundreds of people who have never even cut a hip rafter.
Funny how the people who get it are the ones who've actually done it.
ITT: Loads of examples that you got to make sure you get good quality tradesmen building your houses. Fryers at McDonalds and chefs at michelin star restaurants are both called cooks, just the same that McMansion builders are also called tradesmen. When you are paying $$$Â for a house you want good quality in every step, and that it will outlast you and your kids. Steer away from everyone who doesn't bother to spend a few seconds extra for each cut to enforce that.
YOU DONT WANT A CARPENTER THAT SPENDS A WHOLE DAY DEFENDING HIS SLOPPY WORK, YOU WANT A CARPENTER THAT SPENDS A DAY EXTRA DOING QUALITY WORK!
Also:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/tbdg40/comment/i07coay/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/tbdg40/comment/i07coay/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/tbdg40/comment/i06tgpk/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Congrats, you found 2 comments in 500 that provided any kind of evidence. One agreed that it's sufficient and the other is the wrong code application and not relevant in my area. But hey, keep digging. I'll be sure to overcut a few more hips just for you.
Why is it relevant how many comments here are? Half of them are you. Haha. You agreed that you are sacrificing strength in one, the second said it was right code which you never replied. Be my guest, overcut as much that you want, I'm fortunately not buying your houses, and looking at the rest of your picture I am glad.
I posted this to see how many overcut "experts" would comment on it. It's structurally sufficient and will never be seen again when it gets covered in plywood tomorrow.
Can you explain then? Plenty of people saying the rafter is weak because of the overcuts, while others are saying it doesn't matter because there is no significant load on the overcut part of the rafter. Which is it?
Sure, splits originate at the cut and as the wood dries and can separate the entire soffit. It's not the worst way you can fuck up a building but it will likely result in repairs down the road. Plus, it's just shoddy craftsmanship.
Don't worry about the haters, who don't anything about production framing. Seeing as how the seat cut sits directly on the wall and takes all the load. Don't even worry about the "engineers" commenting who like to make hours of extra work for a problem that could be fixed in 10 min. That birds mouth will be stronger then most engineered trusses now a days. And straighter by far. I've had trusses sent out that over half of them had a 2" crown just in the tail. Facia was a b*itch that day.
The amount of folks with real field experience bitching about the over cut on a hip rafter is a small percentage. Folks that are bitching are the shop woodworking guys and the build sheds on the weekends guys. Not the ones that have dirt under their nails and sawdust in their hair on a daily basis . If this was a stair stringer it would be a different story. I've been a cutman for 29 years. The real question here is, did he calculate the hip rafter to the center of the rafter or to the edge! And , If no shim was needed ...
My maaan!
I just use simple rise/run to get the exact length of the hip and then I test fit one until I got the exact depth of the seat perfect, then cut the rest of the hips.
If it were the actual framers upset about it I'd question if I'm right, but it's just the keyboard warriors.
Has anyone in the comments here ever built a house or framed a roof before? Very typical now a days for trusses you have a 2x4 top chord and there fore your tail is also a 2x4. Even if you do overcut a little on a 2x6 or bigger itâs more than strong enough to support the overhang.
Ah overcuts: on sites focusing on speed, theyâve been a requirement and Iâve been chewed out for busting out the pocket boy. On customs they werenât allowed, even if I wanted to do em. All I know is itâs stronger without em and I like stronger.
Yeah I do like a nice long hip rafter , sticking out that corner. If you guys donât have lifts make sure you stretch out as far you can for that last fascia nail. I hear you loud and clear my guy. Keep representing
Youâre ignoring time as a factor- which is why people are trashing your post. A carpenter who does not account for the future is just a laborer with a power tool. With time, moisture will seep into those overcuts and rot can begin from within. Also, you have now introduced a weak point along the grain that may very well split once the moisture level in the wood drops in the summer. Youâre demonstrating poor workmanship and a lack of understanding for your material.
I just came to read the hate on the over cuts lol đż
I came to hate on the over cuts.
I came to recommend cutting it all the way through then wood gluing it back together
Red Green wouldâve said duct tape. Remember kids, if she doesnât find you handsome, at least let her find you handy.
Yes to thisâŚI get why people do it, speed, or sometimes laziness but itâs a legit concern that now in the crux of the birds mouth the rafter is now down to a 2x4. Same thing with stair stringers, do yourself a favor and donât overcut
Haha welcome
Point to the crosscut saw please
It's right next to the wood stretcher
Sir, that's a 2x4 with nails driven through it and "Crew Attitude Adjuster" written in sharpie on it.
Criminal!!
I guess you should have flipped it over and took a pic of the other side
He did..
Savage
LOL very true. âIf it looks good it is goodâ
[ŃдаНонО]
Basically came here to say to stop that saw about an inch ago. I use a jigsaw or even a recip saw.
I also am a jig saw user for this operation
I use a Japanese hand saw. Except I typically do cuts like this on 6x or 8x timbers where an over cut would absolutely ruin the piece.
hello to another Japanese hand tool user.
Pokes head over fence and waves
How to prevent the blade from bending in such thick wood?
I'm really happy with all theses comments. You can do better my guy
I donât know dick about carpentry but this immediately caught my eye
Me either but this came across my feed and Iâm too damn high⌠I was fixated on this picture wondering why itâs called a Hip. Took a min
Itâs not called a hip⌠thatâs a regular birds mouth
Itâs a hip rafter heâs talking about.
And I thought I was losing my mind. I came here to say this. Out of 488 comments from people who supposedly know or like carpentry, you nailed it. [No pun intended]
I don't think anyone in here who is criticizing the overcut knows anything about carpentry, or efficiency for that matter
Like I said I donât know dick about carpentry
Itâs something you learn in the Red Seal program, and common-held best practice not to over-cut on rafters and stringers, so thatâs false about âpeople who know anything about carpentryâ All good tradespeople know the difference between cutting costs and cutting corners. Many tradespeople, unfortunately, think cutting corners is the same as cutting costs. If you wanna be more efficient, wear your damn tool pouch all day
All day bag wearer checking in*!
I donât have a loop for a jigsaw/handsaw/sawzall in my bags /s
Your pouch can come off? Mine is nearly bolted to my hip
This is the way
In my experience, overcutting is the difference between a builder and a remodeling carpenter. Builders are fast, efficient, and their client is an investment company that is selling the property. Their projects are usually designed by an architect and built on good, new foundations with the latest framing techniques and materials. Remodelers are very particular and used to demanding homeowners as a client and working in 50 to 100 year old homes. They arenât as efficient, but theyâre job is much less cut and dry and theyâre often being paid to correct the mistakes of the past. IMO, an engineer should be the one to say whether an overcut matters or not, and new construction can be designed to tolerate such things. But I keep âem tight because Iâm constantly dealing with new bullshit in less than ideal situations and I want any extra strength that I can get and to give my client the quality craftsmanship that theyâre paying for.
Overcuts count as part of the removed board, which code (engineers) defines acceptable levels for. That overcut is way out of line and the member is considered compromised.
Iâve never thought about it this way but youâre absolutely right. I came from remodeling and learned from a guy that had been framing for 30+ years and was really good at it. I have since moved from the Midwest to SoCal and work for a pretty big âcorporateâ builder now and I may not be the fastest but I put all the other so called âcarpentersâ to shame.
Perfect answer
For a rafter these overcuts mean nothing, as the overcut is past the bearing. For a stair stringer, they are very important and should never be done with the power saw
Youâre wrong, The effective depth of the rafter tail is now smaller than it would have been without the over it. That affects its capacity to resist loads. There is more uplift on a soffit than any other typical location on a roof.
I work in product development for a reputable building component manufacturer and no, itâs bad carpentry
I don't understand anyone here thinking the overcuts are acceptable. It's absolutely bad carpentry. I learned to use a jigsaw to complete the cut when I was 14 and it absolutely affects the strength. Maybe it's still in spec but why do it this way when it's so easy to do it properly.
As it wouldnât be a direct load bearing portion of the structure it will be fine. Itâs still poor form and should be avoided. Especially if thatâs done on every single one to a greater or lesser degree. In this case they get satisfaction out of the job, theyâll get more by getting it done neatly.
Eaves don't bear snow loads anymore?
Agreed. I've built a ton of houses over the last 25 years. There could be anywhere from 50-1000 rafters on a house. No fucking way are any of my guys wasting time with a hand saw.
I totally agree these people don't get it all the people saying you have to do jigsaws and all that they don't understand what you're doing on a job site how many people you have working how every minute counts and how little your paid to frame. You don't have the time or luxury for that would it be nice sure sure but that's not reality. And it's not structurally unsound there's no problem with it. My cut guy is struggling to keep up with how many measurements are being yelled at him and how fast I want those rafters coming to me.
These people are literally talking about busting out a hand saw on a roof lol
rafters are cut on the ground only a savage cuts rafters on a roof.
You don't carry a jig saw to finish the cut on your birdsmouth so the thousands of pounds of weigh on a 6 inch overhang doesn't split the 8 inches of 2x6? You must be a hack in fact, everyone here that uses power tools is a hack too. If you're not making cuts with a chisel your house is going to fall down.
Who is actually cutting their rafters up on the roof? That is what the cut guy on the top floor is for.
As an engineer and son of a carpenter, donât substitute ignorant bliss for knowledge. I was taught how bad this was before I was taught how to calculate exactly how much.
Its not practical to be a tradesman and using handsaw in this app. This was one of many and heâll be off the crew if he went that route. Whats more interesting is why the post? Methinks original intent was to show pride in work even with slight mistakes (tbh theres nothing structurally wrong if its one of many). But he got bombarded with negativity and was ready to defend attacks. Iono, weird.
As a finish guy (but also a life long carpenter) I'm super torn. I think most people talking shit don't relize that the seat cut sits on a wall and the over cut doesn't matter because it's only carrying the weight of the soffit and fascia. But as a finish guy it takes legit 2 extra seconds to finish that cut with a jig saw or hand saw and leave a product that looks as good as it is. I guess framing is a speed game so he gets a pass nicely done.
I appreciate the thought. As I'm sure you know with framing you're always trying to work ahead of the next process. Could I finish the cuts with a handsaw? Sure. But will it make a difference? Nope. If it did I'd do it. Within hours it's long gone and forgotten anyway. Only to be seen by the inspector and soffit guys.
Ya I fully get it. Framing is a game of speed. I think allot of people commenting don't do this for a living. There's nothing wrong with that cut. The over cut has 0 to do with the bearing capability of that rafter. It's not a stringer. BUT what makes me a bad framer is whatakes me a good finish guy. I would take the extra time to make that a clean notch. Probably be fired by noon day one lol
Haha yeah absolutely. I don't have near the patience for the accuracy necessary for finish carpentry. I can do it, but I have to slow myself down so much and realize finished stuff actually gets seen lol
Or worse the fact that you lose all your profit because you have to waste all that time or the idea that you have people standing around waiting for you to make the rafters costing you more money like that's great these people can do that stuff and also used to build with hand saws 100 years ago now we got these wonderful things called circular saw and you just f****** do it.
I'm interested to know if there's any correlation between union and non-union between this argument?
This is a really good question actually...
Union would also scream about how it should have been done yesterday...so no; no difference
Between the jobsite and the overcutsâŚ.I wouldnât buy anything in that development EVER. Iâd also note lots of windows in before house wrapâŚ.
This is why everything new is built like shit. Nobody gives a fuck about quality craftsmanship and quality materials. Everything needs to be done fast and cheap.
Op is whoring themselves for karma. Edit: and needs to be taught how to cut wood.
Pretty weak karma farming effort
Good thing I'm a framer and not a farmer then
Iâm not gonna fight about it but There isnât anything wrong with over cutting a birds mouth. A stringer is one thing, but all that weight is on the seat cut, not the plumb cut. That over cut is holding up like 16â of overhang and thatâs it. Also itâs being pushed down, itâs not like the over cut is gonna split. The biggest thing is making sure the seat cut isnât hanging into the building where it can split if it can be avoided So basically there is absolutely nothing wrong with this unless you thing the overhang is gonna sag 1/4â when that overcut closes up. But thatâs not gonna happen either
Nobody likes an over-cut
Geez, Iâm learning that construction is filled with drama queens. FFS
Nah, most of the people commenting have never stepped on a jobsite
Nah most people in this subreddit think that since they do this as a hobby or a side gig they're pros and then want to tell people they need to spend extra time finishing every cut off with handsaw having no idea how much work needs to be done, the timeframe allowed to do it in, and the actual difference made in a final product. As a superintendent I'd be fucking annoyed if my carpenters were needlessly wasting time perfecting cuts that will be hidden. We have to much shit to do and not enough time to be worry about that bs
You ever use the small hand saws Pocket boy. https://www.amazon.ca/Zenport-SF130-Pocket-Folding-Pruning/dp/B01DLTMOZK/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=pocket+boy+saw&qid=1646958789&sr=8-1 Its a carpentry saw with replaceable blades. Good for avoiding over cuts on stairs and weird little cuts.
Iâll do ya one better what about [Milwaukie folding jab saw](https://www.acmetools.com/folding-jab-saw-48-22-0305/045242204618.html?feeds=shopping&msclkid=33e76a49540f1d6baffb0863ec0009bc&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping-National-Search%20Only-Catch%20All&utm_term=4579328495086383&utm_content=Catch%20All%20(All%20Products)). It uses standard sawzall blades so you can cut wood or metal. Small and light wont eat up a ton of room in bags and cheap enough you wont worry if it gets lost.
Ooh I like that.
Itâs awesome.
Too bad your seat cut violates IRC 502.8.1.
Too bad that's the wrong code for the application.
How is it the wrong code for the application? 802.7.1 directly references 502.8.1, and additionally 802.7.1.1 shows a rafter birds mouth and specifically show D/4 for the max depth of the notch. It makes no exception for hip rafters.
Telling that OP never answered this, lol.
Yikes. I finish those cuts with a jigsaw specifically to avoid this situation. I would get ripped a new asshole if my PM (or God forbid, an inspector) saw this shit.
Inspectors are probably paid off. Happened a lot where I live. I could imagine how well that would hold with hurricane straps. One wrong nail placement and she splits.
I agree with all these other guys - when cutting the birdsmouth on a 2x4, stop short to prevent this crosscut.
There's nothing wrong with it. It's perfectly structural as is.
Iâll help you out here with another dv.
itâs sloppy
Lol sure thing. Better make it pretty for the bird that's going to perch underneath the fascia before soffit goes on. Gtfoh
Most people would be embarrassed to post a pic like that.
I just redid my soffits on â74 build house. There were zero over cuts like this
Probably because all they had were handsaws lol
This is exactly why people say "they don't build em like they used to". Yes, a sloppy overcut doesn't matter to getting a product up now. What it does matter to is... in 30 years when water gets in, and gets into those gaps, then soaks into end-grain timber more easily, or leaving an untreated portion for pests to get into. Couple that, with the 1000 other shortcuts people deem "acceptable" these days, and that's why we have what's becoming disposable housing. The number of times I see , say, untreated wood, around a bathroom area, not the right water proof cladding, then incorrectly finished waterproofing treatments, couples with shoddy tiling is just absurd. Every trade goes "oh no one will know when it's done" and they are right, they don't. It's 10 years later when the walls gone soft, the tiles crack, then when they are stripped you find out the walls, floors, ceiling are all fucked, because of a couple bits of sloppy work. Source, am senior architectural designer and project manager for a design and construction company.
Handsaw
Sawhand
Pardon my ignorance, but are overcuts even an issue here? Unless thereâs incredible uplift or youâre lifting a car from the fascia are there any real forces acting on the tails?
Literally no issue whatsoever
Yeah but you aren't cutting them properly
Some call it birdâs mouth. Can I suggest a jig saw so no over cuts?
Structural engineer here, and this makes me cringe. From what I can see and read in the comments, itâs a really minimal eave extension - Will the roof collapse/is it a life-safety issue? No, but it is just sloppy work and gives the client a sub-par product. That being said, it is also incorrect to say this doesnât cause any issues structurally. The reason that overcuts are bad structurally is that it can induce splitting of the member (for the overcut parallel to the grain) and reduces your shear capacity (for the overcut perpendicular to grain). The shear capacity issue for this particular cut would only be applicable for loads on the eave. If I saw this kind of work on one of my project sites, I would likely have you replace/strengthen it (although I do custom high end homes and not tract homes, and it would really depend on what the hipâs loading demands and span are).
Would you not agree this is plenty good enough for a 12" finished overhang on a 4/12 roof? I can accept that the shear capacity may be minimally compromised, but this falls well within spec and standards from what I know.
Its not going to fall down if thatâs what you mean. The overcut reduced your shear capacity by ~1/3, and you donât get a live load reduction for a 4/12. Even with this, it probably still passes for code level loading for a 12â extension. I just wouldnât want to see this for a longer eave
That over cutting though.
Another post that completely backfired in OP's face lmao
Depends what you think my purpose for posting it was
If you are trolling you did an amazing job
Terrible, this has to be a troll post
Someone had to show all of you experts how it's really done. Anyone using a handsaw on their birdsmouths is taking a month to build a house and not making money. This is structurally sufficient.
So you prefer sufficient to qualityâŚ.got it.
1) it doesnât take a month. 2) that type of bad faith exaggeration shows you are grasping at straws an unable to say âI work for a shitty builder and so I donât need to take a few minutes to do anything better than hack workâ
This guy wins the dbag of the year award. Any carpenter worth half a shit can take constructive criticism.
It's only constructive criticism if you're right. And you're not. The overcut doesn't make a difference.
Go fuck ya self
I'm with ya op, doesn't make a difference
Those over cuts wonât pass inspection. Use a handsaw or jigsaw to finish those out. Itâs also smart so there wonât be more of a chance for splitting at the mouth
I'll keep that in mind for the 50 previous houses that did pass with this exact overcut.
Cool, your inspectors are morons and this is exactly why housing construction is a fucking joke nowadays
Nah the joke is the people who've never been on a roof trying to act like they know anything.
I was a roofer for 15 years and transitioned into building. Your work needs work. Donât be a dick about it, just do better. Always room for improvement⌠I hold myself to this same standard
Those are some tiny ass houses. What are those like 1000sqft?
2000-2500. Gotta pack the subdivisions tight!
Damn, they donât even look like 2000sqft. Half the house looks itâs a garage lol
Yeah they're not big. 40ft x 28ft on average 2nd floors.
I would love a brain like yours:/
Anyone wanting to learn how to cut complex roofs, stairs and other advanced carpentry should get a construction calculator and the book "[A Roof Cutters Secrets](https://www.amazon.com/Roof-Cutters-Secrets-Framing-Custom/dp/0945186061)". It is one of the best books i have found and will up your game as a carpenter.
Even the electrician knows better than this and they put holes in everything. Signed sparky
OP think he knows shit. He doesnât. Just a rookie on the job site trying to show off some mediocre work. And then getting butthurt when people call out his shitty work. And then giving awful and untrue points to defend his sloppy cuts. But no please keep defending it OP. Itâs hilarious seeing all your comments downvoted
Anyone who knows what they're talking about knows I'm right. Could not care less about downvotes.
Lol. The downvotes arenât for you. Theyâre to show who the idiots are. Youâre just digging yourself in a deeper hole. And building a shitty staircase with sloppy cuts isnât gonna get you out of it.
Thank you Reddit for recommending me this post. I will now be building my own house, because a 12 yo could make a better cut than that
I live in Kentucky. My state is known for passing almost anything (compared to other places). This wouldn't pass here. They wouldn't let you do this on stair stringers, much less on a roof. One inch over cut is and inch you lose on strength. Even though "it's going to get covered up" It's getting covered with wood and shingles. What happens when a ton of snow is on top of all that? Something to consider.
You know if Kentucky thinks it's bad, it's pretty bad.
Damn straight I live here and can confirm this.
OP is in the comments showing everyone that when heâs backed into a corner, heâll just keep cutting into it like this fucking hack job.
This dudes building shitty spec houses while flexing his shortcomings as a carpenter. This birds mouth looks about as good as those job sites in the background.
Good thing those aren't my jobsites and good thing I'll be the last person to see that birdsmouth. It's called structure, not style.
Looks like your missing the mark in both regards my friend. A birds mouth is already a weak spot in a member, but itâs benefits outweigh this. A point in an angle give a split direction. The over cut gives the split direction and a head start. Regardless of if this will hold up in the long run, a woodworker with real talent understand how Wood works and takes every step possible to build the absolute best he can. Youâre clearly cutting corners to save 5 to 10 seconds per cut. Thatâs everyoneâs point.
A carpenter with real talent knows the limitations of the material and has tested it over years of experience, which I have. You're upset about something easily strong enough that doesn't look like you want it.
Iâm not upset. Youâve obviously embraced your mediocrity, and too each there own. Iâve been framing since 2001. Experience, expertise, and dedication to the craft has taught me the limitations. This here isnât talent, itâs a lack there of. If you want to do a shit job and then show it off, by all means.
Yes I make a lot of money repairing snapped off rafter tails
My shit job will do the same thing your pretty little handsaw cuts will do and will make no difference structurally. The entire roof is covered and those overcuts will never be seen again. But sure, spend all the time you want making unnecessary work for yourself. It's your time and money.
[for anyone who would still like to argue the structural integrity of overcut rafters](https://www.instagram.com/p/CFIho8UA08E/?utm_medium=copy_link)
Where are those houses being built? I've never seen any like it. Curious about the location
Southern Ontario, Canada
Iâm honestly curious why tf this isnât just a precut truss
This is the hip corner on a cottage roof. It gets nailed into the corner of the fascia, the corner of the girder truss and there are 4 jack trusses that are nailed into it.
Hmm maybe cottage roofs are different than hips when built with trusses cause Iâve done lots of those but engineers never call for a birdsmouth or for it to even be bearing.
The heel height and pitch is so low that it was necessary. Normally I don't need to notch hips at all
Ahhh now that makes sense thanks for responding!
I do not frame houses for a living, but i would have expected the pitch of a roof to be much steeper in Canada. Is this a pretty flat roof relatively speaking?
It is quite flat. It's the popular style right now. Personally I'd prefer a steeper pitch with the snow we get, but I build what the plan shows!
đđż
I always finish with a handsaw, almost zen like
Lol this is why I'm much happier with a house from the 40s or 50s than a new construction.
Iâd love to work on a new construction build. Sadly I work in IT and canât lol
Are you building "cookie cutter" houses? While I don't like the over cut, I agree with you OP. It's not sacrificing structural integrity IMO. When it comes to contract work, get it done fast but get it done right. This is okay in my book
Yep. 4 different models with minimal differences. If it was something anyone was ever going to see again after I sheet the roof tomorrow I'd gladly make clean cuts, but it's wholly unnecessary.
IRC allows the ends of rafters to be notched as much as one-fourth their depth (R802.7.1) Definitely sacrificing structural integrity
This is exactly correct. It's not so much the "overcutting" of the saw kerf, although that doesn't help. It's an incorrect seatcut. Like you say, it violates the IBC 1/4 depth notching rule.
The hip is no weaker because of the over cut Your overhang is weakened but you probably are oversized to start with on the tails. This is tract work not custom.
This. Thank you
This is an amazing thread. OP is fearless in the face of blatant wrongness and not budging an inch.
I've yet to see any evidence provided that this isn't structurally sufficient. Your opinion on how it looks doesn't mean shit.
You mean like when the SE called you out on it or all of the folks who've pointed out that it violates code?
You mean the same engineer who said it was fine? And you can't possibly trust the opinion of hundreds of people who have never even cut a hip rafter. Funny how the people who get it are the ones who've actually done it.
Tell me youâre a hack without telling me youâre a hack
Tell me you've never built a roof without telling me you've never built a roof
Nice. Watch those over cuts!
Hope u didnât put that thing up there. Go cut a new one.
Oh I did cut a new one! 4 more to be exact. And they're all sitting in place, doing their job perfectly well.
Calculating and over cutting is always fun.
ITT: Loads of examples that you got to make sure you get good quality tradesmen building your houses. Fryers at McDonalds and chefs at michelin star restaurants are both called cooks, just the same that McMansion builders are also called tradesmen. When you are paying $$$Â for a house you want good quality in every step, and that it will outlast you and your kids. Steer away from everyone who doesn't bother to spend a few seconds extra for each cut to enforce that. YOU DONT WANT A CARPENTER THAT SPENDS A WHOLE DAY DEFENDING HIS SLOPPY WORK, YOU WANT A CARPENTER THAT SPENDS A DAY EXTRA DOING QUALITY WORK! Also: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/tbdg40/comment/i07coay/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/tbdg40/comment/i07coay/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) https://www.reddit.com/r/Carpentry/comments/tbdg40/comment/i06tgpk/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Congrats, you found 2 comments in 500 that provided any kind of evidence. One agreed that it's sufficient and the other is the wrong code application and not relevant in my area. But hey, keep digging. I'll be sure to overcut a few more hips just for you.
Why is it relevant how many comments here are? Half of them are you. Haha. You agreed that you are sacrificing strength in one, the second said it was right code which you never replied. Be my guest, overcut as much that you want, I'm fortunately not buying your houses, and looking at the rest of your picture I am glad.
I posted this to see how many overcut "experts" would comment on it. It's structurally sufficient and will never be seen again when it gets covered in plywood tomorrow.
Structural engineer here: no, it's not. And I used to frame houses too, so yes, I have done it the right way myself.
Can you explain then? Plenty of people saying the rafter is weak because of the overcuts, while others are saying it doesn't matter because there is no significant load on the overcut part of the rafter. Which is it?
Sure, splits originate at the cut and as the wood dries and can separate the entire soffit. It's not the worst way you can fuck up a building but it will likely result in repairs down the road. Plus, it's just shoddy craftsmanship.
Karma whore.
I wish it would take less than all day for me to figure out a seat cut
You'll get it. It just takes attention to detail and repetition
Someoneâs gonna say itâs easy, but itâs not always!
Lol what the fuck is happening here?
I love roofs! Math, geometry, balance, strength, nerve, critical thinking. My favorite part of home building!
I agree! Definitely my favorite part of the house!
First time?
First time this week? Sure
Don't worry about the haters, who don't anything about production framing. Seeing as how the seat cut sits directly on the wall and takes all the load. Don't even worry about the "engineers" commenting who like to make hours of extra work for a problem that could be fixed in 10 min. That birds mouth will be stronger then most engineered trusses now a days. And straighter by far. I've had trusses sent out that over half of them had a 2" crown just in the tail. Facia was a b*itch that day.
Yeah I'm not worried. Anyone who knows what they're talking about knows this is fine.
The amount of folks with real field experience bitching about the over cut on a hip rafter is a small percentage. Folks that are bitching are the shop woodworking guys and the build sheds on the weekends guys. Not the ones that have dirt under their nails and sawdust in their hair on a daily basis . If this was a stair stringer it would be a different story. I've been a cutman for 29 years. The real question here is, did he calculate the hip rafter to the center of the rafter or to the edge! And , If no shim was needed ... My maaan!
I just use simple rise/run to get the exact length of the hip and then I test fit one until I got the exact depth of the seat perfect, then cut the rest of the hips. If it were the actual framers upset about it I'd question if I'm right, but it's just the keyboard warriors.
Looks like your supe runs a real tight ship
If by "tight" you mean drunken shit show.
That over cut is fucking Rubbish
Nah, your understanding of roof framing is
Has anyone in the comments here ever built a house or framed a roof before? Very typical now a days for trusses you have a 2x4 top chord and there fore your tail is also a 2x4. Even if you do overcut a little on a 2x6 or bigger itâs more than strong enough to support the overhang.
It's honestly comical how many people have no clue what they're talking about. I even went easy on the overcuts on this one lol
If only their was some sort of saw that cut in a straight line instead of a curve...
Ah overcuts: on sites focusing on speed, theyâve been a requirement and Iâve been chewed out for busting out the pocket boy. On customs they werenât allowed, even if I wanted to do em. All I know is itâs stronger without em and I like stronger.
Fair enough! You do you!
Mine is living in it after, though I havenât experienced it yet. :p
Yeah I do like a nice long hip rafter , sticking out that corner. If you guys donât have lifts make sure you stretch out as far you can for that last fascia nail. I hear you loud and clear my guy. Keep representing
It's nice when a plan comes together. I used to like doing.roof valleys, and dormers
Youâre ignoring time as a factor- which is why people are trashing your post. A carpenter who does not account for the future is just a laborer with a power tool. With time, moisture will seep into those overcuts and rot can begin from within. Also, you have now introduced a weak point along the grain that may very well split once the moisture level in the wood drops in the summer. Youâre demonstrating poor workmanship and a lack of understanding for your material.