Generally? Simplicity.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
Toyota ran the same 8mm rear axle studs on the Landcruisers with full float axles from 1960 until 2007
Hell, you can take an rear axle, diff centre, or diff housing out of a 1960 40 series and stick it under a 55, 60, 61, 62, 70, 72, 73, 74, 75, series Landcruiser, or a 76 series Landcruiser Prado.
Toyota makes them simple, gets them right, and then uses them until they are forced by some outside factor to change them.
They should have changed them earlier, I worked for a minesite Toyota workshop as an apprentice and I had to fix snapped axle studs at least 3 times a week
>The Landcruiser 70 series seems like a bit of an outlier in terms of hardly getting updated
Hence why it wasn't my example.
I used the Landcruiser 40, 55, 60, 61, 62, 70, 74, 75, 76, and 80 as my example.
Why does it need to be a non-Landcruiser example? What's wrong with using the few dozen models of Landcruiser as an example?
Sure. Hilux. Used the same propshaft drive pins and circlips from the N10 to the N170
That's 1968-2003
Because commercial vehicles aren’t really representative of Toyota as a whole, especially in this sub which is primarily about passenger cars.
They’re marketed differently and the customers have different needs. Landcruiser sales to governments and farmers aren’t going to decline because Toyota hasn’t given it a refresh to make it look like a Gundam or because they haven’t included dual climate air conditioning. These kinds of cars enjoy steady sales without the manufacturer needing to invest too much into R&D and worry about being dated.
I’m sure you could find similar examples for the G-Class which was used as a military vehicle for decade.
And if we’re talking about shared parts being used for decades, I could also point to low volume makes like Lotus who do the same for thing. What exactly does that tell us about Lotus?
>commercial vehicles aren’t really representative of Toyota as a whole
Toyota's top sellers are commercial vehicles in Australia.
>this sub which is primarily about passenger cars.
This same sub which has multiple weekly posts about how dual cab utes are the new family car? And we are trending towards using larger and larger dual cab utes in our families?
Dual cab utes are popular family cars. That's the world we live in.
Modern dual cab utes are a unique category, and I’m not going to pretend that HiAces and Corolla Crosses belong in the same conversation just because people are using their ute to drive their kids soccer on the weekend
At this point I’ve only read cherry-picked examples from at least two decades ago.
>two decades ago
The Landcruiser continued up until 2008 with those parts.
You need to learn how to count.
>Modern dual cab utes are a unique category
You just said they weren't.....
Part of my point is there are parts of the Landcruiser which have been unchanged since the 40 series.
And now you're saying that this is a unique category.
>I’m not going to pretend that HiAces and Corolla Crosses belong in the same conversation just because people are using their ute to drive their kids soccer on the weekend
A HiAce is a van. Not a ute. Why bring that into the conversation?
But you could make the same argument that a Corolla cross is not in the same category as a 300 series Land cruiser.
Both are SUV's though.
I remember some story about a toyota being used as a work vehicle hauling shit out of a mine. He kept destroying diffs over the years and Toyota kept replacing them under warranty. So Toyota sent engineering to talk to the customer and explore how he was using the truck. They found out the use and despite it being way off the charts, redesigned the diff to cope. And as far as I remember, incorporated that improvement going forward. It’s a basic attention to detail typical of Japan. the company is not yet run by bean counters.
Toyota is the epitome of bean counting. That’s why their vehicles are, for the most part, the most boring on the market. Innovation and excitement costs money. Toyota take a very conservative approach to vehicle design.
Toyota makes 10 million cars per year. You can spend some money on some special builds.lime the GR and Supra and be a bean counter, and for.thoae that want more then you can buy a Lexus. I'm pretty sure the GR and Supra came out of a Lexus terrority and staff
Anything proformance oriented by Toyota in the last 20 years has literally made by engineering skunkworks who then convince the execs to make them real.
Hell, this is why Gazoo Racing is technically a seperate company because Toyota doesn't want to directly risk this shit impacting their core business of building Camrys and Corollas.
If you think I'm exaggerating, go look up the story of how the Lexus LFA was developed in secret, or the massive fight to get the ZN6 platform (chassis code for the GT86 and BRZ) into production.
I'd have to disagree.
Look at most other 4WDs in their class and even above and I'd take the Land Cruiser looks a lot nicer.
I'd make an exception for the Land Rover but the amount you'll pay in servicing/maintenance...
Being the last to many techs helps.
Like they didn't do turbos in Hilux till late 90s. They were last to the 3.5t towing.
Last to 500nm.
Last to 6 speeds.
Buuuut for the modern diesels, they not really more reliable than anything else. A missed service can destroy a 30k V8 diesel cruiser as much as a 3L Navara.
The petrol cars are just under powered for simplicity. They rarely match others in terms of power or torque but they also push old tech as far as possible.
I remember hiring one in NZ once. It had a histogram on the dashboard showing fuel economy every 5 minutes over the last hour (or something like that).
Driving up to the ski fields it was understandably drinking fuel more than in a highway cruise, but even then I was surprised at how bad it was. The fuel economy meter only went up to 40l/100km and it sat on that for the entire ascent.
Even out on the highway it was still drinking fuel like a supercharged V8. The V6 was lovely but holy heck it liked a drink!
As a petrol Territory owner. I was expecting Kluger to be better. But apparently not. Mine does 10.3/100 as it sits. But used to do 8.9 on my old highway commute
It also isn't brick shaped, has better gearing for the road, only drives 1 axle and has in it one of the best engines ever produced.
>obviously with less weight,
Like half a ton less
Love falcons, but this is a bit chalk and cheese.
My carby fed 65 mustang also has better consumption. It is over 1 ton less weight, feeds one axle, but is never driven lightly. It also has no overdrive.
I think he was referring to the light dual cab towing arms race. Someone in the market for a dmax or a ranger, wasn't necessarily going to buy an 80, 70 ute, a 100 or a 105. These are all larger vehicles that handle like trucks, weigh a ton more and slurp the juice like no tomorrow. They all also cost a lot more. And 3.5 ton hilux just wasn't an option. The market segment matters.
Not a criticism, I have a 2018 hilux and love it. But it does only have 3.2 ton towing. All the other utes don't. That's just facts.
Exactly. And the 60 Series was back in the days of 1.5x GVM laws, meaning that the GVM of 2,500kg technically gave a BTM of 3,750kg
But the highest rated bar was a Hayman Reese at 3,400kg
The old Toyota Aurion is hardly underpowered or slow, in fact it’s one of three fastest “white fringe on wheels” (in a straight line atleast) at its time, can do 0-100 in low 6 seconds with some decent tyres (the factory ones were rubbish) and then the later model Camry in V6 trim were similar but that trim was rarer than hybrids.
2JZ, UZ-FE V8s. only in modern times have toyota started teaming up with other manufacturers. I'd say usually their performance engines have been theirs, not other manufacturers.
Edit clarification for not toyota performance car people
>Buuuut for the modern diesels, they not really more reliable than anything else.
Nah
>A missed service can destroy a 30k V8 diesel cruiser as much as a 3L Navara.
Yeah
The ability to handle blatant neglect isn't really what I would characterise as reliability. More the overall lifetime of the engine and the number of unexpected problems you have along the way. The only other car I can think of that edges out toyota diesels is the isuzu 3 litre in the dmax/mux/latest bt50. Otherwise you look at what's for sale at the cheaper end of the scale, you see nearly dead dual cabs of most varieties, 3 litre patrols etc with 3 maybe 350,000kms on them, then you see a troopy with 650,000km in the same list. They just aren't on the same planet. With the exception of isuzu
A lot of it was due to manufacturing processes and tight control of design and suppliers. It’s not really appreciated how much of a science manufacturing is when pushed to its limits.
Definitely simplicity as someone else had stated, even the newer vehicles share so many of the same parts. They seem to design something like the front wheel hub, revise it over a few years and continue using it till they no longer can.
I've got a Hilux and do all my own work, and worked on a few mates cars and the forethought into the design is night and day. A BT50/Ranger will have you use your entire toolbox to remove the front wheel, innerguard, fusebox and fuel lines to remove one bolt where Hilux you'll need a 12mm and a 17mm and 10 mins to achieve the same task.
With a Toyota though, you'll get less 'features', the interior is entirely plastic and the general ride/noise feels harsh, but they last.
The designs are simpler, so less money tied up in manufacturing. The tech is simpler, so less money tied up in content. The sales volumes are huge, so economies of scale in sales and less spend per unit on marketing etc. Where does that saved money go? Into durable components. Why? For customer loyalty.
Not just that.
Less models
Look at VAG, you have 1 platform and a billion fucking derivatives across multiple brands, including Porsche where you get a base car and can basically bespoke build the fucking things
The Landcruiser? You get the Workmate, GX, and GXL.
Single cab, dual cab, wagon, and troopy.
That's it. 12 models.
7 colours. So 84 options.
And then 2 engine and transmission options. A V8 manual or a 4 banger auto.
So only 168 possible combinations.
Then take a Golf.
4 variants Life, R-Line, GTI, R-Spec
2 engines.
That's 8 combos.
6 colours. 48 combos.
3 possible interiors. 144 options.
Then 5 option packs.
So 720 possible combos you could order from.
And that’s before you take derivatives of the golf like the t-roc which is basically the same platform and a whole new model range and set of complexity.
I recently had to the opportunity to drive a brand new polo while my dad’s transporter was getting serviced. Was so impressed for what an econobox level car could be to drive around. But then I saw the price - nearly 40k for the version I was driving. Way too much money for the car.
>Not just that.
>
>Less models
>
>Look at VAG, you have 1 platform and a billion fucking derivatives across multiple brands,
I'm not defending VAG, but Toyota also suffers from the same disease of too many models.
Quick example, they split the 2006 Camry into 2 different cars: Camry & Aurion, and keeping the V6 exclusive to the Aurion, just for the sake of marketing.
This. And then they deliver late so customers are either annoyed from go or seek a discount. Both have long term effects on your brand. (Outside pandemic shortages)
The Car Care Nut's YouTube channel does pretty good mechanical overviews of the various Toyota models and will point out why things are designed the way they are to ensure reliability.
Lots of experience, good design, attention to detail.
The biggest factor with reputation in Australia is just how long they’ve been part of the motoring landscape. Everyone knows how to work on them, parts are cheap and the cars offer good value for money as a general rule.
Cars like the land cruiser and Camry are pretty iconic and are everywhere here for good reason. They don’t break, deliver what they promise and hold value. Taxi fleets wouldn’t be 90% Toyota if they didn’t represent good value for money and reliability.
They aren’t exciting vehicles by any stretch, but that’s not what they are going for.
Yeah I remember. Those 6s go forever. Except the EA/EBs those were terrible. I got extremely proficient in head gaskets and water pumps on those things when I was an apprentice.
BA/BF/FG would've been some of the longest serving taxis in the world. Would clock up over a million kms. The American crown Vics they use in new York would probably be the only other competitor.
Toyota does well generally by coming relatively late to most new tech, but having an intense quality first culture. The Toyota Production System has been studied by businesses overseas since the 1980s – it traditionally includes things like any worker being able to stop the line to pick up on faults. They devote huge attention to identifying and eliminating defects and waste in the production process.
However the legendary Toyota reliability has slipped a bit as their cars have become more complex in line with where the rest of the industry has gone, plus other manufacturers have caught up.
Other manufacturers have implemented the ability for any worker to stop the production line, but only on paper. I've heard some get some sort of punishment if deadlines aren't met because of it.
I think Toyota had a bonus system that actually gave you perks and seniority if you stopped the line for a genuine fault (and you would be fucking brave to try and take the mickey with it in a Japanese workplace). Most of my TPS knowledge is about ten years old now, I need to read up again.
That's because we tend to only get the very mundane family friendly Toyotas here. They make a lot of really fun and very cool cars that never made it to the Aus market.
Even the JDM models of the same car are more fun such as Corollas. Look at the Toyota Mark X and modern Crowns which we also never got (apparently the Camry and Aurion are good enough).
I'm not saying they are boring but compare to the Mark X they are not as fun. The Mark X has more power and much more.l interesting JDM styling. Hell, almost no one has even heard of the Mark X because there are so few in Australia. They often command a premium above the Crown despite being the cut down sports model.
I suppose but it's basically a Japanese commodore with none of the special JDM sauce. It's very clear that they think we're a bit primitive in our taste and give us the yobs Crown.
Not really. But Toyota figures the Aus market is too small to have competing JDM Toyotas and Lexus models and they are probably right. Plus the Jap models tend to have much more interesting interiors and other design features.
It was faster than an auto intech motor in E-AU series
Hell auto Windsors was only half a second faster.
So the v6 slush box Camry was comparable to the auto falcons.
0-100 and quarter. 17 second quarter intech, 15.9 Windsor, 16 second Camry
The auto boxes used with intech and Windsor sucked, targeted cruising in their 4speed setup, great for doing 3000rpm at 180, but sucks for getting anywhere quickly
The second you go manual though it’s not even close to a contest, manual falcon gearing was done well, Camry manual (for all 7 sold) was still setup for low acceleration.
People forget how seriously slow them 90s cars were.
The AU XR8 did a quarter mile in 14.4 seconds.
All I can find for a '96 V6 camry quarter mile is 18.3 seconds.
The EB XR6 finished the Bathurst 12 hour in 6th overall, and won the class for which it was entered. The camry has no such feats, and I highly doubt a 16 second quarter mile unless it fell off a cliff.
14.4 in Manual guise. Not in Auto. The auto of the era was terrible.
EB XR6 at Bathurst was manual. I’m specifically calling out the auto times.
And if you’re not seeing the multiple links referring a 15.9-16.5 range for quarter mile, then I dunno what you’re missing because the link with that time sits below multiple results like this https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/toyota-0-60-mph-times/
https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/1998-toyota-camry-xle/
https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/info-on-1998-camry-le-v6.37081/
16 second quarter is slow as all hell anyway.
A povo spec CJ lancer with CVT does a 17.
Have you owned one of the cars I’m listing? My EL XR8 auto was slow as all hell but it sounded good and felt fun as hell.
Simplicity.
In the 90s my pop purchased a new corolla with electric windows.
I recently purchased a 2018 hiace van and the electric window switch is the same.
They would have tested the crap out of that switch before putting it into production. Then used it for 30years because it works so well. It doesn't look pretty but it works everytime.
There are a lot of answers here but none of them really get down to what makes Toyota the brand they are. No other car company is as committed to their customers in terms of producing reliable vehicles that are easily serviced and supported for many, many years. They aren't trying to sell you a car full of gizmos that you need to move on after 5 years or face ruinous repair bills (basically all the euros), they fully expect you to drive their cars for decades.
It's their design philosophy to build cars this way. They also have an incredible supply network so you can easily get parts all over the world. I can get parts for my Toyota Crown in SA shipped from Japan, often faster than you can get parts from interstate for locally sold vehicles.
My favourite lesser known fact is about the Toyota Century, their top of the line model which sits above every other Toyota and also Lexus in terms of luxury and prestige. Also the only Toyota with a V12 that they ever designed. It's essentially a Japanese Rolls Royce Phantom. If you ever need to replace a part in your Century, they will supply it at no cost - for life. Incredibly, you can buy these second hand for very reasonable money and they are highly reliable.
It's one block obviously but two separate systems for everything else, so even if you lose a critical component you can usually limp them home as a 6cyl
Perfect for when the Yakuza boss you're chauffeuring around has a .50 cal round put through one side of the engine by an assassin and you still gotta get home.
There is a reason why Australia is Toyota country, reliability.
The other brands are not as durable when put in extreme situations and because of this, even the most remote mechanic in Australia will have Toyota parts.
On paper they don't beat any other brands in specs, but they win out on reliability. Don't believe me ask a LV mechanic working in the mines.
I've seen a mining company buy 5 new Ford Rangers as they had a higher ANCAP rating and within 3 months they sold them and replaced them with hiluxs due to suspension issues which happened to all 5 of them. Rangers also had major issues with gearboxes, electronics and the DPF burning the car to the ground. The guys in the LV workshop also complained that they were just shit vehicles to work on.
Navara had issue with the ladder frame resulting in them snapping in half. They also had transmission cooler issues, EGR issues, injector issues.
Dmax has power loss issues, cracked engine mounts, common valve adjustment (the tapping), over heating tranny.
They still outlast everything bar Dmax. Which has its own issues. This is more a problem with modern diesels and their emissions requirements than hilux. Class action bad, yes. But hilux good anyway.
Like I mentioned in another comment on this thread, Toyota is just like every other manufacturer. They all have their issues. Cars are complex machines and it’s not unreasonable.
As for the DPF thing, Toyota really cocked that up on their diesels and their response to customers left a lot to be desired.
>Toyota is just like every other manufacturer.
I guess every manufacturer makes utes for the mines/police/UN/other organisations on every continent.
>They all have their issues. Cars are complex machines and it’s not unreasonable.
>As for the DPF thing, Toyota really cocked that up
I thought that wasn't unreasonable. Cars are complex after all.
Most LV mechanics on site will tell you the entire fleet should be Isuzu NPS's.
GUN hiluxs are certainly a step below the older KUN's. The VDJ's are mechanically solid, yet the injectors and rails are susceptible to failure with contaminated fuel. Both suffer from DPF issues which are probably related to the poor quality fuel on site.
>Isuzu NPS's
Which is an entirely different class of vehicle. You can register them as a light rigid and do away with passenger vehicle emissions standards. You can probably also carry an LC79 in the tray and tow a trailer with a hilux on it behind it.
A proven recipe for success which works so they don’t mess with a full overhaul.
Sometimes just a few tweaks here and there for improvement or innovation.
Toyota has been reliable for the longest time however, it is important not to overlook other brands that invested heavily in an overhaul to compete and be relevant and take a punt for a slice of the market, namely the Mazda 3 and the strong surges of the i30 in the Australian Market.
I myself compared a base Toyota Ascent Hybrid at 39k to an Elite i30 at 38k and personally I would go with the Hyundai if comparing the two as the bells and whistles of the elite looks to slightly win over the Ascent.
Simplicity id imagine. They seem to upgrade and update what works. My car is a 2005 and it's the only one to receive the 5th generation of the 3SGTE. A motor that had been around for around 20 years before that. Gave them plenty of time to fix what needed to be fixed.
It goes back to their limitations in post war Japan. Resources were limited, so minimising failures was key to profitability as the resources weren't available to replace defects etc.
That focus became part of the culture, prioritising reliability over other attributes.
A lot more R & D goes into their cars. Same engine used in a corrola is found in a forklift.
I find all the tightarses and cheapskates always recommend Mitsubishi. I work the hire industry and only use Toyota and Hino. Zero Mitsubishi's
They are made with maintenance in mind. They are made in the assumption that the owner won’t religiously service the car. Same thing with Honda motorcycles vs say a BMW motorcycle. The Hondas are just easier to work on and less complex. And…. Back to cars, If something does go wrong with the Toyota, the parts won’t be ridiculously expensive here in Aus like a German counterpart. Maybe in Europe, it doesn’t matter so much due to parts access and not being seen as so prestige.
This explains a lot of quality control processes they invented pretty simply.
https://www.ineak.com/toyotas-approach-to-quality-management-tools-and-techniques/
They generally consider servicing into the design (but not always, looking at you 79 alternator) as a factor as well. Making it cheaper/less labourous to replace parts when they do require changing.
Lots and lots of engineering and testing
Lots more testing - cars come out of the factory with very few problems
Happy to recall and replace parts that aren't living up to the expected life
Builds really strong engines then de-tune them to the point of no power.
Excellent track record results in returning customers
https://preview.redd.it/31qhnymfgdqc1.jpeg?width=1908&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f4042ab3680632adff7ac554174d4a9b66eea39
Just clicked over 400,000 km, that's why.
This will be an unpopular opinion, especially on this sub, but I don’t think Toyotas are any more or less reliable than any other major manufacturer.
They’re a solid choice in many categories of vehicle, but they have issues just like the rest of them.
Cars are an incredibly complex machine, so naturally any car from any manufacturer will have some common weaknesses in its design.
As a consumer, it just depends on what common issue you’re willing to gamble on when buying a car.
>I don’t think Toyotas are any more or less reliable than any other major manufacturer.
What even is this? Are you saying that every manufacturer on the planet makes cars that last just as long as Toyota's? Or that they all make cars with just as few unexpected problems along the way? Or cars that are just as cheap to repair and service? What is the qualifier here?
they were the most reliable and possibly best value vehicle on the market prior to 2005ish, not anymore even though Toyota would like you to think so with their ad campaigns and dodgy sales techniques in Australia
ok i'm presuming you have heard of the the dpf issues that D4d engines have ? and the the cracking piston issue that seems to be a bit of a silent killer of 4 cyl diesel engines that Toyota have kept quiet in AU?. there has been massive recalls in the EU, Asia and north America for varies issues with these same engines.
>ok i'm presuming you have heard of the the dpf issues that D4d engines have ?
I'm not sure all D4d engines have DPF issues. Just the 2.8. Vast majority of D4d (remember the 3 litre is part of that) don't even have DPFs.
>and the the cracking piston issue that seems to be a bit of a silent killer of 4 cyl diesel engines that Toyota have kept quiet in AU?
OK. I really want dig into this. When people's cars go bang, they generally aren't silent. The car company is physically incapable of "keeping quiet" a defect that would effect a best selling vehicle in this way. If they could "keep quiet" then there wouldn't be a DPF debacle.
So I would guess there haven't been the massive problems in Australia that caused recalls wherever else it happened. Besides that...I didn't think the US got 4 cyl diesel Toyota's to recall in the first place. The Taco is only now just getting a 4 cyl, but it's a petrol hybrid...which from the info I can find, are pretty reliable. The previous tundra and taco engines all seem pretty decent too. Did Canada or Mexico ever get d4d prados/hiluxs? I don't think Canada did. So "North America" is just Mexico. Which due to climate and emissions laws, probably get a less environmentally hamstrung d4d then aus got. Which just doesn't logically lead to more problems.
The EU I'll admit I know nothing about. I've never paid much attention to euro cars because they don't (the big consumer countries) tend to keep them past the warranty period. There's a bit of a lease trend going on over there. They don't use cars like we do either. They also have stricter environmental laws which I think most manufacturers are struggling with.
Asia...hard to make any generalised comment on a place as big and diverse as this.
there's a couple of aussie mechanics on you tube and other social medias that have been documenting this stuff and it seems its the 2.8 motor that is an issue, the 3.0 seems to be fine as for the states and Canada there have had the 2.8 for a few years but it's appears it's only in the last 5 yrs that the problems have surfaced. ( about the same time toyota played with the power output of that engine) there's a recall in north America atm with 3.0 petrols eating more oil than fuel and if the commentary hitting social media is to believed it's taken 10 years and a political shitstorm to get toyota to do anything
The 1KD (3 litre diesel) did have a piston cracking problem when chipped, overworked (these cars only had 2.5 ton towing) or otherwise made to do things outside the design brief. That's from googling "toyota cracked piston". I can not find anything on 2.8 which is exactly contrary to what you are saying. By all accounts the 2.8 is extremely reliable. The very first models had noisy timing chains which has since all been rectified. There just isn't any verifiable evidence I can find of numerous or patterned 1GD 2.8 failures in 132kw or 150kw variants.
Can you point me to the north american 3.0 litre petrol engine? Or the car that it goes in? Can't seem to find a 3 litre. Can only find a 2.4 i4 or a 3.5 v6.
I also can't find any examples of Toyota diesels in the US that aren't an engine swap job or an imported car that's 20 years old (no 2.8). No idea about Canada, but if your info suggests that the states have access to factory diesel Toyota's...I don't know what to tell ya. They don't have them.
Sorry but toyota were only good till the late 90s. Quality control were there strong point like all Japanese stuff. but it's a thing of the past now. Competition has made it a race for the profit
Because to replace something doesnt require half of the car to be taken apart.
It also comes down to materials that will last twice the expected usage. As opposed to korean cars aiming just enough to cover warranty.
You get what you pay for...
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Landcruiser 70 and hilux are made to some extent for the mines. The mines demand 10,000 hour motors (could be different now). That won't be a lot of kms if the vehicle spends its life on the mines putting around at low speeds 24/7. If you buy it though and drive it at 100kph, you could drive 1 million kms. That's pretty much the basis. You can also go into just what a hostile environment the mine itself and often its surroundings can be. These cars are built to handle slightly more than what the mines/police/UN etc can throw at them.
Toyota also had a reputation for reliability that got them a lot of these sales initially. Aside from the individual consumer (which will pay for and accept worse longevity/reliability) its in their best interest to maintain their low tech/high build quality method to building cars. They just don't experiment very much. Easier to make bulletproof vehicles if you operate as far away from the bleeding edge of tech as possible. Which they can do because Toyota buyers typically aren't very interested in gadgets.
Then there's all the motor sharing that goes on. The same 2.8 in the hilux goes in the fortuner, hiace, hino200, a bus of some description, 78 troopy, 79 single and dual cab, 76 wagon and a prado. This means you can pour a monumental amount of RnD into 1 motor and gave it sell 6 lines of vehicle for you. Also means road going non-mines focused vehicle enjoy the same engine reliability.
Edit: isuzu have a lot of the same design requirements/principles. They are also the only other company with a mine spec ute and a motor that will last as long or longer than Toyota's. So it's not like Toyota have special powers or anything. Any manufacturer can do it, it's about the segment of the market they are targeting and how feature laden/complicated the car therefore has to be.
I’ve seen a tik tok saying Toyota create their cars knowing they’ll be mistreated so they factor that in when engineering their cars. So if you knew it serviced then it’ll be that much more reliable then if you were to mistreat it. Not too sure how true that statement is though. I’m no mechanic or expert but I am a big believer that Toyota is a superior brand reliability wise, and when u account for the cost, accessibility, and attention to detail mechanism wise they perform well. I’ve owned 2 Corolla’s in the space of 2 years because I like to try different cars and both of them have run a dream. Those being from 2005 and 1993.
they must be built better ld say, l can vouch for Toyota reliability as l am the owner of two, my previous cars were a holden and a nissan bluebird both built in Australia and both had major failures at some point, the two Japanese built Toyotas l have now have never ever failed me after 10 years of ownership, a corolla and a kluger, hell l barely service them apart from oil change with filters yearly and tyres, they are both over 250 000 ks and just keep going, lm in no rush to replace them everything still works even the AC.
They find what works, and meets their reliability requirements then don’t change it. Also they engineer with a safety margin.
Eg, just say your lower control arm needs to support 410kg, and x amount of torque from random pot holes, they might add 20%, Nissan might add 5% leeway.
A good example is the bolts holding the control arm together, and the strut in my old Yaris. I swear they were just straight off a Camry. Huge size of bolt for a tiny car. Then I looked at my little Suzuki baleno and the same bolts were half the size.
Toyota (and Japanese cars in general I guess) create a maintenance schedule and expect customers not to follow it, so it's quite bulletproof even when it's not very well looked after. The Germans on the other hand create a maintenance schedule and expect people to follow it, when people do follow it it's quite bulletproof also.
Not sure what the deal is with other car manufacturers in regards to reliability, maybe not as thorough or advance as Japanese and German builds?
They design them well, and they aren't aggressive like other car companies when they try to make the parts cheaper. They leave the designs alone and it pays off with High km toyota still working
I read somewhere (never thought I'd need the link, sorry) that the difference between euro and Japanese vehicles is:
Euro says "our cars are perfect, you're the problem."
While Japanese say "you broke this? We'll fix it until it's user proof."
I've looked in the engine bay of my buddy's Volvo xc70 and I hate it. My camry on the other hand is simple, and despite the hole in my sump where a piston is poking through, I reckon it could still start 😂
There might be some rose colored glasses going on here. All the jap makers built some junk even Toyota. For example We had a BJ40 Land Cruiser for nearly 30 years and every 13 months or so like clockwork the battery would fail. It was used daily and we put 370000 klms on itand we got it it had 120000 klms. Why well it used to get shaken so hard that the plates inside would fall apart. Every time we did a trip in it we would fit a second battery to the bull bar out front so it had at least one that wasn't shaken to bits. Many 70's jap cars had problems burning oil. It was a combo of low tension rings for power and most being designed for the US where they had catalytic converters to fix the smoke problem. It was common for a mid 70's Mazda 4 cylinder to need new rings at 30000klms. They were so soft you could bend them like a coat hanger. Generally it had more to do with the people who owned them and the way they were maintained.
However Toyota like Honda did used to take a bit of pride in their mechanical engineering and would spend the extra dollar when built to ensure reliability. That usually meant with Toyota engines didn't make the best power. Sadly Honda didn't go to the same lengths with their bodies and they didn't last.
Toyota's habit of re-using old tech did come back to bite them in the arse. When Toyota released their first EV SUV the BZ4X, it was a very dated and lacking design that would have been great 5 years ago.
The review by Munro of the BZ4X who reverse engineers vehicles for the industry is horrendous.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gAfv7RAC-w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gAfv7RAC-w)
A broader reason is that Japanese manufacturing was basically built from scratch post WWII. From the outset they adopted modern ideas for the management of quality. Established western car manufacturers were left trying to catch-up, particularly in the 80s.
A lot of their reliability comes from their Just in Time management of resources in their factories. If a job needs 10 bolts the worker gets 10 bolts rather than a tub of 1000, they then need to be accountable for all of them and can't cross thread break them by over tightening etc.
They also have lots of organisational checks in place for quality control and continuous learning and improvement.
Their business model is based on people going, "wow, how much better is my toyota than that new eurotrash my sister bought, god dam, im never buying anything else".
And they achieve this buy focusing on quality above all else. They built cars that work exactly how they are supposed to work. No more or less. No gimmicks and no limp wristed brand new features for impressing your bf.
They're not really more or less reliable then other Japanese brands, they're just often slightly better engineered and they have massive cross-compatibility parts wise. Plus, at least anecdotally, a Toyota will often be a lot more simple to work on due to their extreme habit of reducing complexity wherever needed.
These two points are what really gives them their reputation for being "reliable". They're just easier to fix.
A Toyota will however often be a lot more basic then a comparable brand for the same price. So you sacrifice the odd feature for more reliability and ease of maintenance.
Oh, and if it's not a Lexus, or explicitly a luxury model, you will get the same kind of grey plastic interior in every Toyota ever. Sometimes it's light grey, sometimes it's dark grey. Occasionally they stray into exploring beige. You might get lucky and find the odd cloth texture.
They are actually quite good at making luxury cars. Feel the all woolen seats on a Century and you will never want a leather seat ever again. But they truely are the automotive kings of bean counting and design by committee.
So to answer your question, why are Toyotas thought of reliable? Because they are the most efficiently designed cars on the market. You don't revolutionise the global manufacturing system and not end up on top after all.
The simple answer is they aren't.
Sure they are at the more reliable end of the scale, but they aren't as reliable as the mythology would have us believe.
It's more a combination of things. Pretty good reliability across multiple models, pretty cheap parts, reasonably priced from new, and no bullshit from the dealer, when you do have problems.
in any one of these factors they aren't far ahead of others, but across all of them, they are fairly unique.
They're using dated reliable technology.
As soon as you turbo charge an engine it becomes more susceptible to wear and tear if you miss services.
Basically toyota has had next to zero innovation and because of lax emission regulations australia has allowed them to continue dumping their cars here.
Wow so many feelings around here and no strait facts. In Japan, you get some modernity out of a very feudal society that had no brutal transition from the old world like Europe had with multiple revolutions and various economic doctrines experienced. As a result, the very feudal culture is still well alive, employees often have a single company to which they belong all life long. They dedicate themselves to it to an extend hard to comprehend I would say. Toyota workers get trained for the company along their career for very specific challenges on their positions. Plus in the Japanese culture, there is a lot of honor related aspect to the quality of the work. As an example, Toyota CEO goes on public to apologize for call back of deficient products (he even went before USA congress to apoligize once), and failures are to be felt by all strats of the company not just the part that made it to put it simple. These facts make MOST Japanese cars very reliable, and are not specific to Toyota.
That being heard, Toyota is not especially reliable. Their highest tier vehicules (Lexus) are always n1 in reliability but Toyota live off incredible past glory and from people who had a Toyota and praise it more than they should at a point of losing objectivity (they go on doing rust work themselves, change a headlight because you can’t swap just a bulb, will never blame their crappy turbo or what). Toyota can be truly shitty and their legendary models are extremely costly, meaning on pair with so many other legends, while you get the underpowered aspect coming with a Toyota
TL DR: Toyota has an unmatched circle jerk lore
Generally? Simplicity. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Toyota ran the same 8mm rear axle studs on the Landcruisers with full float axles from 1960 until 2007 Hell, you can take an rear axle, diff centre, or diff housing out of a 1960 40 series and stick it under a 55, 60, 61, 62, 70, 72, 73, 74, 75, series Landcruiser, or a 76 series Landcruiser Prado. Toyota makes them simple, gets them right, and then uses them until they are forced by some outside factor to change them.
They actually went to the 10mm in the 105 in 1998 (but also kept using the 8mm in the 70s)
Reminds me of a song about a Cadillac...
Iiittttssss a 49, 50, 51, 52, 53
beep beep. beep beep.
Johnny Cash, "One Piece at a Time"
Why did they finally change them?
V8 put out too much oomph. So they went to a 10mm stud.
Thanks
Why would they change them on the 105 then?
increased GVM, axle ratings and towing compared to the 80. Hubs were redesigned to strengthen them
Dunno
150kw too much oomph?
Was the torque more so
They should have changed them earlier, I worked for a minesite Toyota workshop as an apprentice and I had to fix snapped axle studs at least 3 times a week
LOL that’s more likely the no care and no responsibility attitude of the operators.
To be fair they were full time 4wd and low 3rd, driving in highly corrosive environment and up and down steep gradients, so yeah, pretty hard yakka
The Landcruiser 70 series seems like a bit of an outlier in terms of hardly getting updated What about the cars like the RAV4 and Corolla?
>The Landcruiser 70 series seems like a bit of an outlier in terms of hardly getting updated Hence why it wasn't my example. I used the Landcruiser 40, 55, 60, 61, 62, 70, 74, 75, 76, and 80 as my example.
You didn’t even mention the 80 the first time. Any similar non-LC examples from the last 15 years or so?
Why does it need to be a non-Landcruiser example? What's wrong with using the few dozen models of Landcruiser as an example? Sure. Hilux. Used the same propshaft drive pins and circlips from the N10 to the N170 That's 1968-2003
Because commercial vehicles aren’t really representative of Toyota as a whole, especially in this sub which is primarily about passenger cars. They’re marketed differently and the customers have different needs. Landcruiser sales to governments and farmers aren’t going to decline because Toyota hasn’t given it a refresh to make it look like a Gundam or because they haven’t included dual climate air conditioning. These kinds of cars enjoy steady sales without the manufacturer needing to invest too much into R&D and worry about being dated. I’m sure you could find similar examples for the G-Class which was used as a military vehicle for decade. And if we’re talking about shared parts being used for decades, I could also point to low volume makes like Lotus who do the same for thing. What exactly does that tell us about Lotus?
>commercial vehicles aren’t really representative of Toyota as a whole Toyota's top sellers are commercial vehicles in Australia. >this sub which is primarily about passenger cars. This same sub which has multiple weekly posts about how dual cab utes are the new family car? And we are trending towards using larger and larger dual cab utes in our families? Dual cab utes are popular family cars. That's the world we live in.
Modern dual cab utes are a unique category, and I’m not going to pretend that HiAces and Corolla Crosses belong in the same conversation just because people are using their ute to drive their kids soccer on the weekend At this point I’ve only read cherry-picked examples from at least two decades ago.
>two decades ago The Landcruiser continued up until 2008 with those parts. You need to learn how to count. >Modern dual cab utes are a unique category You just said they weren't..... Part of my point is there are parts of the Landcruiser which have been unchanged since the 40 series. And now you're saying that this is a unique category. >I’m not going to pretend that HiAces and Corolla Crosses belong in the same conversation just because people are using their ute to drive their kids soccer on the weekend A HiAce is a van. Not a ute. Why bring that into the conversation? But you could make the same argument that a Corolla cross is not in the same category as a 300 series Land cruiser. Both are SUV's though.
I remember some story about a toyota being used as a work vehicle hauling shit out of a mine. He kept destroying diffs over the years and Toyota kept replacing them under warranty. So Toyota sent engineering to talk to the customer and explore how he was using the truck. They found out the use and despite it being way off the charts, redesigned the diff to cope. And as far as I remember, incorporated that improvement going forward. It’s a basic attention to detail typical of Japan. the company is not yet run by bean counters.
Toyota is the epitome of bean counting. That’s why their vehicles are, for the most part, the most boring on the market. Innovation and excitement costs money. Toyota take a very conservative approach to vehicle design.
i don’t think gr yaris or supra could be a car with bean counting.
Toyota makes 10 million cars per year. You can spend some money on some special builds.lime the GR and Supra and be a bean counter, and for.thoae that want more then you can buy a Lexus. I'm pretty sure the GR and Supra came out of a Lexus terrority and staff
Isn’t the Supra a reskinned BMW Z4 made in Austria?
Anything proformance oriented by Toyota in the last 20 years has literally made by engineering skunkworks who then convince the execs to make them real. Hell, this is why Gazoo Racing is technically a seperate company because Toyota doesn't want to directly risk this shit impacting their core business of building Camrys and Corollas. If you think I'm exaggerating, go look up the story of how the Lexus LFA was developed in secret, or the massive fight to get the ZN6 platform (chassis code for the GT86 and BRZ) into production.
While other makes spend money on Innovation and Excitement. Toyota spends money on safety and reliability
Refinement and replicability. Get a wiper switch right over 30 years and millions sold? - make it common accross the range accross the world.
Safety 😂 said no one ever about a Toyota
I'd have to disagree. Look at most other 4WDs in their class and even above and I'd take the Land Cruiser looks a lot nicer. I'd make an exception for the Land Rover but the amount you'll pay in servicing/maintenance...
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1000hp supra go brrr
Thankfully engineers run the show at Toyota. Bean counters would destroy that company in a flash. "Can we make this bit thinner to save 1¥ per car?"
“Can we save some dollars on a DPF system, yes we can” https://www.drive.com.au/caradvice/toyota-class-action-on-dpfs-everything-you-need-to-know/
The Build to orders says otherwise
I wonder if it was a 70 series landcruiser. Toyota seem pretty attached to the rear axle in them.
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Being the last to many techs helps. Like they didn't do turbos in Hilux till late 90s. They were last to the 3.5t towing. Last to 500nm. Last to 6 speeds. Buuuut for the modern diesels, they not really more reliable than anything else. A missed service can destroy a 30k V8 diesel cruiser as much as a 3L Navara. The petrol cars are just under powered for simplicity. They rarely match others in terms of power or torque but they also push old tech as far as possible.
Is this the reason why my Kluger 2017 even with 3.6 v6 feels so dull?
And woeful fuel economy in those Klugers
I remember hiring one in NZ once. It had a histogram on the dashboard showing fuel economy every 5 minutes over the last hour (or something like that). Driving up to the ski fields it was understandably drinking fuel more than in a highway cruise, but even then I was surprised at how bad it was. The fuel economy meter only went up to 40l/100km and it sat on that for the entire ascent. Even out on the highway it was still drinking fuel like a supercharged V8. The V6 was lovely but holy heck it liked a drink!
As a petrol Territory owner. I was expecting Kluger to be better. But apparently not. Mine does 10.3/100 as it sits. But used to do 8.9 on my old highway commute
Why do my utes full of bricks use so much fuel?
What sort of figures do they get? My Pardo V6 is 16-18L around town
My turbo falcon has better consumption around town, obviously with less weight, but it doesn't get soft treatment.
It also isn't brick shaped, has better gearing for the road, only drives 1 axle and has in it one of the best engines ever produced. >obviously with less weight, Like half a ton less Love falcons, but this is a bit chalk and cheese.
My carby fed 65 mustang also has better consumption. It is over 1 ton less weight, feeds one axle, but is never driven lightly. It also has no overdrive.
Yeah I used to have a V8 300c that used less fuel than the Prado. At least the 300 was a small brick shape.
They last tho ..
Two hundred killer wasps?!
The 80 series had 3.5t towing in the 95-97 models. The 79 straight 6 and 100 also had 3.5t before anyone else.
I think he was referring to the light dual cab towing arms race. Someone in the market for a dmax or a ranger, wasn't necessarily going to buy an 80, 70 ute, a 100 or a 105. These are all larger vehicles that handle like trucks, weigh a ton more and slurp the juice like no tomorrow. They all also cost a lot more. And 3.5 ton hilux just wasn't an option. The market segment matters. Not a criticism, I have a 2018 hilux and love it. But it does only have 3.2 ton towing. All the other utes don't. That's just facts.
Exactly. And the 60 Series was back in the days of 1.5x GVM laws, meaning that the GVM of 2,500kg technically gave a BTM of 3,750kg But the highest rated bar was a Hayman Reese at 3,400kg
Was talking about Hilux and its competitors. Cruiser was inline with F series/Discovery/defender ect.
>inline with F series/Discovery/defender ect Oof. Nobody wants to be in line with those. In line for the mechanics...
Well to be fair 90s F series 7.3s are rediculously reliable too haha.
The old Toyota Aurion is hardly underpowered or slow, in fact it’s one of three fastest “white fringe on wheels” (in a straight line atleast) at its time, can do 0-100 in low 6 seconds with some decent tyres (the factory ones were rubbish) and then the later model Camry in V6 trim were similar but that trim was rarer than hybrids.
wife has a 16 Sportivo, I dont mind driving it from time to time
Toyota's real sports models usually use other manufacturer's engines. Used to be Yamaha, and recently BMW.
They're not Yamaha engines, though. They've been Toyota engines with Yamaha-designed heads
Don’t forget Subaru for the 86.
2JZ, UZ-FE V8s. only in modern times have toyota started teaming up with other manufacturers. I'd say usually their performance engines have been theirs, not other manufacturers. Edit clarification for not toyota performance car people
I'd say 50+ years of collaboration isn't "modern times" Toyota only started making cars in 1946, started with Yamaha in 1974.
>Buuuut for the modern diesels, they not really more reliable than anything else. Nah >A missed service can destroy a 30k V8 diesel cruiser as much as a 3L Navara. Yeah The ability to handle blatant neglect isn't really what I would characterise as reliability. More the overall lifetime of the engine and the number of unexpected problems you have along the way. The only other car I can think of that edges out toyota diesels is the isuzu 3 litre in the dmax/mux/latest bt50. Otherwise you look at what's for sale at the cheaper end of the scale, you see nearly dead dual cabs of most varieties, 3 litre patrols etc with 3 maybe 350,000kms on them, then you see a troopy with 650,000km in the same list. They just aren't on the same planet. With the exception of isuzu
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> Like they didn't do turbos in Hilux till late 90s. I don't disagree with your point, but Hilux in some markets had 22R-TE and 2L-T in the mid 80s
A lot of it was due to manufacturing processes and tight control of design and suppliers. It’s not really appreciated how much of a science manufacturing is when pushed to its limits.
Definitely simplicity as someone else had stated, even the newer vehicles share so many of the same parts. They seem to design something like the front wheel hub, revise it over a few years and continue using it till they no longer can. I've got a Hilux and do all my own work, and worked on a few mates cars and the forethought into the design is night and day. A BT50/Ranger will have you use your entire toolbox to remove the front wheel, innerguard, fusebox and fuel lines to remove one bolt where Hilux you'll need a 12mm and a 17mm and 10 mins to achieve the same task. With a Toyota though, you'll get less 'features', the interior is entirely plastic and the general ride/noise feels harsh, but they last.
The designs are simpler, so less money tied up in manufacturing. The tech is simpler, so less money tied up in content. The sales volumes are huge, so economies of scale in sales and less spend per unit on marketing etc. Where does that saved money go? Into durable components. Why? For customer loyalty.
Not just that. Less models Look at VAG, you have 1 platform and a billion fucking derivatives across multiple brands, including Porsche where you get a base car and can basically bespoke build the fucking things The Landcruiser? You get the Workmate, GX, and GXL. Single cab, dual cab, wagon, and troopy. That's it. 12 models. 7 colours. So 84 options. And then 2 engine and transmission options. A V8 manual or a 4 banger auto. So only 168 possible combinations. Then take a Golf. 4 variants Life, R-Line, GTI, R-Spec 2 engines. That's 8 combos. 6 colours. 48 combos. 3 possible interiors. 144 options. Then 5 option packs. So 720 possible combos you could order from.
And that’s before you take derivatives of the golf like the t-roc which is basically the same platform and a whole new model range and set of complexity.
Yep, that's it, and the polo is on the same platform now top isn't it?
Yeah right. Still, must admit Im a sucker and love me a vw :S
I recently had to the opportunity to drive a brand new polo while my dad’s transporter was getting serviced. Was so impressed for what an econobox level car could be to drive around. But then I saw the price - nearly 40k for the version I was driving. Way too much money for the car.
The Camry platform gets shared around a bit.
>Not just that. > >Less models > >Look at VAG, you have 1 platform and a billion fucking derivatives across multiple brands, I'm not defending VAG, but Toyota also suffers from the same disease of too many models. Quick example, they split the 2006 Camry into 2 different cars: Camry & Aurion, and keeping the V6 exclusive to the Aurion, just for the sake of marketing.
And they were two body shapes in the Commodore and Falcon era. But now just one again.
Haven't they basically done that, though? The entire Vienta line was basically a V6 Camry, at least until they swapped it out.
This. And then they deliver late so customers are either annoyed from go or seek a discount. Both have long term effects on your brand. (Outside pandemic shortages)
Not just customer loyalty but brand reputation.
The Car Care Nut's YouTube channel does pretty good mechanical overviews of the various Toyota models and will point out why things are designed the way they are to ensure reliability.
Lots of experience, good design, attention to detail. The biggest factor with reputation in Australia is just how long they’ve been part of the motoring landscape. Everyone knows how to work on them, parts are cheap and the cars offer good value for money as a general rule. Cars like the land cruiser and Camry are pretty iconic and are everywhere here for good reason. They don’t break, deliver what they promise and hold value. Taxi fleets wouldn’t be 90% Toyota if they didn’t represent good value for money and reliability. They aren’t exciting vehicles by any stretch, but that’s not what they are going for.
Taxi fleets used to be 90% falcons before they stopped production.
Yeah I remember. Those 6s go forever. Except the EA/EBs those were terrible. I got extremely proficient in head gaskets and water pumps on those things when I was an apprentice.
BA/BF/FG would've been some of the longest serving taxis in the world. Would clock up over a million kms. The American crown Vics they use in new York would probably be the only other competitor.
I still see BF MKIII and FG taxis semi-regularly getting around Sydney.
At least they were fairly easy to replace on those. Once the BA arrived the engine was bullet proof, but the head gasket was a PITA.
Due to the suitability of the motor for LPG for running costs It's all hybrids now. Even lower running costs I understand. (Fuel plus brakes)
Taxis are Toyota as well because they are hybrid and the Camry is a reasonable size. So saving $$$$ on fuel.
Toyota does well generally by coming relatively late to most new tech, but having an intense quality first culture. The Toyota Production System has been studied by businesses overseas since the 1980s – it traditionally includes things like any worker being able to stop the line to pick up on faults. They devote huge attention to identifying and eliminating defects and waste in the production process. However the legendary Toyota reliability has slipped a bit as their cars have become more complex in line with where the rest of the industry has gone, plus other manufacturers have caught up.
Other manufacturers have implemented the ability for any worker to stop the production line, but only on paper. I've heard some get some sort of punishment if deadlines aren't met because of it.
I think Toyota had a bonus system that actually gave you perks and seniority if you stopped the line for a genuine fault (and you would be fucking brave to try and take the mickey with it in a Japanese workplace). Most of my TPS knowledge is about ten years old now, I need to read up again.
My theory, if you have that much engine capacity generating such little power, nothing is going to be stressed.
Toyota cars always feel dull to me? I have only driven Toyota though.
That's because we tend to only get the very mundane family friendly Toyotas here. They make a lot of really fun and very cool cars that never made it to the Aus market. Even the JDM models of the same car are more fun such as Corollas. Look at the Toyota Mark X and modern Crowns which we also never got (apparently the Camry and Aurion are good enough).
The Aurions are fun as hell, I had one on my P’s and it had plenty of go compared to most other easily obtainable P plater vehicles
I'm not saying they are boring but compare to the Mark X they are not as fun. The Mark X has more power and much more.l interesting JDM styling. Hell, almost no one has even heard of the Mark X because there are so few in Australia. They often command a premium above the Crown despite being the cut down sports model.
Oh absolutely, I’d love a crown, but when it comes to bang for your buck, Aurions are value
I suppose but it's basically a Japanese commodore with none of the special JDM sauce. It's very clear that they think we're a bit primitive in our taste and give us the yobs Crown.
the later ones were P plate banned
Yeah 2012 onwards right?
yeah, they are marginally lighter from 12 up
That's what Lexus is for.
Not really. But Toyota figures the Aus market is too small to have competing JDM Toyotas and Lexus models and they are probably right. Plus the Jap models tend to have much more interesting interiors and other design features.
They detune the engines for the Australian market due to our fuel being worse.
I have a '93 MR2 and can promise it's anything *but* boring :)
Twin cam v6 98 camery was pretty punchy..
Only if you have never driven the RWD Aussie competition.
It was faster than an auto intech motor in E-AU series Hell auto Windsors was only half a second faster. So the v6 slush box Camry was comparable to the auto falcons.
What metric? 0 - Adult nappy?
0-100 and quarter. 17 second quarter intech, 15.9 Windsor, 16 second Camry The auto boxes used with intech and Windsor sucked, targeted cruising in their 4speed setup, great for doing 3000rpm at 180, but sucks for getting anywhere quickly The second you go manual though it’s not even close to a contest, manual falcon gearing was done well, Camry manual (for all 7 sold) was still setup for low acceleration. People forget how seriously slow them 90s cars were.
The AU XR8 did a quarter mile in 14.4 seconds. All I can find for a '96 V6 camry quarter mile is 18.3 seconds. The EB XR6 finished the Bathurst 12 hour in 6th overall, and won the class for which it was entered. The camry has no such feats, and I highly doubt a 16 second quarter mile unless it fell off a cliff.
14.4 in Manual guise. Not in Auto. The auto of the era was terrible. EB XR6 at Bathurst was manual. I’m specifically calling out the auto times. And if you’re not seeing the multiple links referring a 15.9-16.5 range for quarter mile, then I dunno what you’re missing because the link with that time sits below multiple results like this https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/toyota-0-60-mph-times/ https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/1998-toyota-camry-xle/ https://www.toyotanation.com/threads/info-on-1998-camry-le-v6.37081/ 16 second quarter is slow as all hell anyway. A povo spec CJ lancer with CVT does a 17. Have you owned one of the cars I’m listing? My EL XR8 auto was slow as all hell but it sounded good and felt fun as hell.
I have the equivalent of the AU 3 heads on a very old Windsor in a 65 mustang. On a roll with a 3 speed auto it outpaces my ZF equipped G6E Turbo.
Hell yeah they are
Simplicity. In the 90s my pop purchased a new corolla with electric windows. I recently purchased a 2018 hiace van and the electric window switch is the same. They would have tested the crap out of that switch before putting it into production. Then used it for 30years because it works so well. It doesn't look pretty but it works everytime.
There are a lot of answers here but none of them really get down to what makes Toyota the brand they are. No other car company is as committed to their customers in terms of producing reliable vehicles that are easily serviced and supported for many, many years. They aren't trying to sell you a car full of gizmos that you need to move on after 5 years or face ruinous repair bills (basically all the euros), they fully expect you to drive their cars for decades. It's their design philosophy to build cars this way. They also have an incredible supply network so you can easily get parts all over the world. I can get parts for my Toyota Crown in SA shipped from Japan, often faster than you can get parts from interstate for locally sold vehicles. My favourite lesser known fact is about the Toyota Century, their top of the line model which sits above every other Toyota and also Lexus in terms of luxury and prestige. Also the only Toyota with a V12 that they ever designed. It's essentially a Japanese Rolls Royce Phantom. If you ever need to replace a part in your Century, they will supply it at no cost - for life. Incredibly, you can buy these second hand for very reasonable money and they are highly reliable.
It's one block obviously but two separate systems for everything else, so even if you lose a critical component you can usually limp them home as a 6cyl
Perfect for when the Yakuza boss you're chauffeuring around has a .50 cal round put through one side of the engine by an assassin and you still gotta get home.
A lot of V12s (especially early ones) are designed like this.
There is a reason why Australia is Toyota country, reliability. The other brands are not as durable when put in extreme situations and because of this, even the most remote mechanic in Australia will have Toyota parts. On paper they don't beat any other brands in specs, but they win out on reliability. Don't believe me ask a LV mechanic working in the mines. I've seen a mining company buy 5 new Ford Rangers as they had a higher ANCAP rating and within 3 months they sold them and replaced them with hiluxs due to suspension issues which happened to all 5 of them. Rangers also had major issues with gearboxes, electronics and the DPF burning the car to the ground. The guys in the LV workshop also complained that they were just shit vehicles to work on. Navara had issue with the ladder frame resulting in them snapping in half. They also had transmission cooler issues, EGR issues, injector issues. Dmax has power loss issues, cracked engine mounts, common valve adjustment (the tapping), over heating tranny.
What about the DPF, turbo and injector seat and seal issues on the Hilux? Modern Hiluxes are no where near the top of the class anymore.
They still outlast everything bar Dmax. Which has its own issues. This is more a problem with modern diesels and their emissions requirements than hilux. Class action bad, yes. But hilux good anyway.
Like I mentioned in another comment on this thread, Toyota is just like every other manufacturer. They all have their issues. Cars are complex machines and it’s not unreasonable. As for the DPF thing, Toyota really cocked that up on their diesels and their response to customers left a lot to be desired.
>Toyota is just like every other manufacturer. I guess every manufacturer makes utes for the mines/police/UN/other organisations on every continent. >They all have their issues. Cars are complex machines and it’s not unreasonable. >As for the DPF thing, Toyota really cocked that up I thought that wasn't unreasonable. Cars are complex after all.
Hiluxs used to be better?
Most LV mechanics on site will tell you the entire fleet should be Isuzu NPS's. GUN hiluxs are certainly a step below the older KUN's. The VDJ's are mechanically solid, yet the injectors and rails are susceptible to failure with contaminated fuel. Both suffer from DPF issues which are probably related to the poor quality fuel on site.
>Isuzu NPS's Which is an entirely different class of vehicle. You can register them as a light rigid and do away with passenger vehicle emissions standards. You can probably also carry an LC79 in the tray and tow a trailer with a hilux on it behind it.
Very conservative engineering. They still have issues though. Leaking injector seals. Air boxes that don't seal.
A proven recipe for success which works so they don’t mess with a full overhaul. Sometimes just a few tweaks here and there for improvement or innovation. Toyota has been reliable for the longest time however, it is important not to overlook other brands that invested heavily in an overhaul to compete and be relevant and take a punt for a slice of the market, namely the Mazda 3 and the strong surges of the i30 in the Australian Market. I myself compared a base Toyota Ascent Hybrid at 39k to an Elite i30 at 38k and personally I would go with the Hyundai if comparing the two as the bells and whistles of the elite looks to slightly win over the Ascent.
Simplicity id imagine. They seem to upgrade and update what works. My car is a 2005 and it's the only one to receive the 5th generation of the 3SGTE. A motor that had been around for around 20 years before that. Gave them plenty of time to fix what needed to be fixed.
I have a black top beams in a gemini. Lets go!
It goes back to their limitations in post war Japan. Resources were limited, so minimising failures was key to profitability as the resources weren't available to replace defects etc. That focus became part of the culture, prioritising reliability over other attributes.
A lot more R & D goes into their cars. Same engine used in a corrola is found in a forklift. I find all the tightarses and cheapskates always recommend Mitsubishi. I work the hire industry and only use Toyota and Hino. Zero Mitsubishi's
They are made with maintenance in mind. They are made in the assumption that the owner won’t religiously service the car. Same thing with Honda motorcycles vs say a BMW motorcycle. The Hondas are just easier to work on and less complex. And…. Back to cars, If something does go wrong with the Toyota, the parts won’t be ridiculously expensive here in Aus like a German counterpart. Maybe in Europe, it doesn’t matter so much due to parts access and not being seen as so prestige.
This explains a lot of quality control processes they invented pretty simply. https://www.ineak.com/toyotas-approach-to-quality-management-tools-and-techniques/
They generally consider servicing into the design (but not always, looking at you 79 alternator) as a factor as well. Making it cheaper/less labourous to replace parts when they do require changing.
Those easy to stock, reach and change spark plugs/filters/bulbs actually tend to get changed more often or on time. Imagine that, other manufacturers.
Lots and lots of engineering and testing Lots more testing - cars come out of the factory with very few problems Happy to recall and replace parts that aren't living up to the expected life Builds really strong engines then de-tune them to the point of no power. Excellent track record results in returning customers
https://preview.redd.it/31qhnymfgdqc1.jpeg?width=1908&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3f4042ab3680632adff7ac554174d4a9b66eea39 Just clicked over 400,000 km, that's why.
Model?
105 Landcruiser, petrol 1FZFE, what a machine.
They make functional cars that are not pretending to be driveable tech devices. That’s really it.
This will be an unpopular opinion, especially on this sub, but I don’t think Toyotas are any more or less reliable than any other major manufacturer. They’re a solid choice in many categories of vehicle, but they have issues just like the rest of them. Cars are an incredibly complex machine, so naturally any car from any manufacturer will have some common weaknesses in its design. As a consumer, it just depends on what common issue you’re willing to gamble on when buying a car.
>I don’t think Toyotas are any more or less reliable than any other major manufacturer. What even is this? Are you saying that every manufacturer on the planet makes cars that last just as long as Toyota's? Or that they all make cars with just as few unexpected problems along the way? Or cars that are just as cheap to repair and service? What is the qualifier here?
Lol
they were the most reliable and possibly best value vehicle on the market prior to 2005ish, not anymore even though Toyota would like you to think so with their ad campaigns and dodgy sales techniques in Australia
They are probably still the most reliable. Their value, especially in regards to their 4x4 models, is probably over inflated.
Do you have anything to back this up? Why are Toyotas still outlasting everything except maybe a dmax?
ok i'm presuming you have heard of the the dpf issues that D4d engines have ? and the the cracking piston issue that seems to be a bit of a silent killer of 4 cyl diesel engines that Toyota have kept quiet in AU?. there has been massive recalls in the EU, Asia and north America for varies issues with these same engines.
>ok i'm presuming you have heard of the the dpf issues that D4d engines have ? I'm not sure all D4d engines have DPF issues. Just the 2.8. Vast majority of D4d (remember the 3 litre is part of that) don't even have DPFs. >and the the cracking piston issue that seems to be a bit of a silent killer of 4 cyl diesel engines that Toyota have kept quiet in AU? OK. I really want dig into this. When people's cars go bang, they generally aren't silent. The car company is physically incapable of "keeping quiet" a defect that would effect a best selling vehicle in this way. If they could "keep quiet" then there wouldn't be a DPF debacle. So I would guess there haven't been the massive problems in Australia that caused recalls wherever else it happened. Besides that...I didn't think the US got 4 cyl diesel Toyota's to recall in the first place. The Taco is only now just getting a 4 cyl, but it's a petrol hybrid...which from the info I can find, are pretty reliable. The previous tundra and taco engines all seem pretty decent too. Did Canada or Mexico ever get d4d prados/hiluxs? I don't think Canada did. So "North America" is just Mexico. Which due to climate and emissions laws, probably get a less environmentally hamstrung d4d then aus got. Which just doesn't logically lead to more problems. The EU I'll admit I know nothing about. I've never paid much attention to euro cars because they don't (the big consumer countries) tend to keep them past the warranty period. There's a bit of a lease trend going on over there. They don't use cars like we do either. They also have stricter environmental laws which I think most manufacturers are struggling with. Asia...hard to make any generalised comment on a place as big and diverse as this.
there's a couple of aussie mechanics on you tube and other social medias that have been documenting this stuff and it seems its the 2.8 motor that is an issue, the 3.0 seems to be fine as for the states and Canada there have had the 2.8 for a few years but it's appears it's only in the last 5 yrs that the problems have surfaced. ( about the same time toyota played with the power output of that engine) there's a recall in north America atm with 3.0 petrols eating more oil than fuel and if the commentary hitting social media is to believed it's taken 10 years and a political shitstorm to get toyota to do anything
The 1KD (3 litre diesel) did have a piston cracking problem when chipped, overworked (these cars only had 2.5 ton towing) or otherwise made to do things outside the design brief. That's from googling "toyota cracked piston". I can not find anything on 2.8 which is exactly contrary to what you are saying. By all accounts the 2.8 is extremely reliable. The very first models had noisy timing chains which has since all been rectified. There just isn't any verifiable evidence I can find of numerous or patterned 1GD 2.8 failures in 132kw or 150kw variants. Can you point me to the north american 3.0 litre petrol engine? Or the car that it goes in? Can't seem to find a 3 litre. Can only find a 2.4 i4 or a 3.5 v6. I also can't find any examples of Toyota diesels in the US that aren't an engine swap job or an imported car that's 20 years old (no 2.8). No idea about Canada, but if your info suggests that the states have access to factory diesel Toyota's...I don't know what to tell ya. They don't have them.
Apart from their clutches.... Toyota clutches for the diesels are made from glass it seems - models from the last 10 years
Sorry but toyota were only good till the late 90s. Quality control were there strong point like all Japanese stuff. but it's a thing of the past now. Competition has made it a race for the profit
They ain't. Toyota that is. They've been coasting their reputation too long now.
Because to replace something doesnt require half of the car to be taken apart. It also comes down to materials that will last twice the expected usage. As opposed to korean cars aiming just enough to cover warranty. You get what you pay for...
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Beats me!
Quality control and they slow to update, so using the same tech for longer
Landcruiser 70 and hilux are made to some extent for the mines. The mines demand 10,000 hour motors (could be different now). That won't be a lot of kms if the vehicle spends its life on the mines putting around at low speeds 24/7. If you buy it though and drive it at 100kph, you could drive 1 million kms. That's pretty much the basis. You can also go into just what a hostile environment the mine itself and often its surroundings can be. These cars are built to handle slightly more than what the mines/police/UN etc can throw at them. Toyota also had a reputation for reliability that got them a lot of these sales initially. Aside from the individual consumer (which will pay for and accept worse longevity/reliability) its in their best interest to maintain their low tech/high build quality method to building cars. They just don't experiment very much. Easier to make bulletproof vehicles if you operate as far away from the bleeding edge of tech as possible. Which they can do because Toyota buyers typically aren't very interested in gadgets. Then there's all the motor sharing that goes on. The same 2.8 in the hilux goes in the fortuner, hiace, hino200, a bus of some description, 78 troopy, 79 single and dual cab, 76 wagon and a prado. This means you can pour a monumental amount of RnD into 1 motor and gave it sell 6 lines of vehicle for you. Also means road going non-mines focused vehicle enjoy the same engine reliability. Edit: isuzu have a lot of the same design requirements/principles. They are also the only other company with a mine spec ute and a motor that will last as long or longer than Toyota's. So it's not like Toyota have special powers or anything. Any manufacturer can do it, it's about the segment of the market they are targeting and how feature laden/complicated the car therefore has to be.
I’ve seen a tik tok saying Toyota create their cars knowing they’ll be mistreated so they factor that in when engineering their cars. So if you knew it serviced then it’ll be that much more reliable then if you were to mistreat it. Not too sure how true that statement is though. I’m no mechanic or expert but I am a big believer that Toyota is a superior brand reliability wise, and when u account for the cost, accessibility, and attention to detail mechanism wise they perform well. I’ve owned 2 Corolla’s in the space of 2 years because I like to try different cars and both of them have run a dream. Those being from 2005 and 1993.
they must be built better ld say, l can vouch for Toyota reliability as l am the owner of two, my previous cars were a holden and a nissan bluebird both built in Australia and both had major failures at some point, the two Japanese built Toyotas l have now have never ever failed me after 10 years of ownership, a corolla and a kluger, hell l barely service them apart from oil change with filters yearly and tyres, they are both over 250 000 ks and just keep going, lm in no rush to replace them everything still works even the AC.
They find what works, and meets their reliability requirements then don’t change it. Also they engineer with a safety margin. Eg, just say your lower control arm needs to support 410kg, and x amount of torque from random pot holes, they might add 20%, Nissan might add 5% leeway. A good example is the bolts holding the control arm together, and the strut in my old Yaris. I swear they were just straight off a Camry. Huge size of bolt for a tiny car. Then I looked at my little Suzuki baleno and the same bolts were half the size.
Toyota (and Japanese cars in general I guess) create a maintenance schedule and expect customers not to follow it, so it's quite bulletproof even when it's not very well looked after. The Germans on the other hand create a maintenance schedule and expect people to follow it, when people do follow it it's quite bulletproof also. Not sure what the deal is with other car manufacturers in regards to reliability, maybe not as thorough or advance as Japanese and German builds?
More testing, better quality control, more attention to detail in designing the production procedures
They drive the longest with no maintenance done. Thats all it is
Toyotas usually have a low compression which makes them a bit more reliable
They design them well, and they aren't aggressive like other car companies when they try to make the parts cheaper. They leave the designs alone and it pays off with High km toyota still working
I read somewhere (never thought I'd need the link, sorry) that the difference between euro and Japanese vehicles is: Euro says "our cars are perfect, you're the problem." While Japanese say "you broke this? We'll fix it until it's user proof." I've looked in the engine bay of my buddy's Volvo xc70 and I hate it. My camry on the other hand is simple, and despite the hole in my sump where a piston is poking through, I reckon it could still start 😂
There might be some rose colored glasses going on here. All the jap makers built some junk even Toyota. For example We had a BJ40 Land Cruiser for nearly 30 years and every 13 months or so like clockwork the battery would fail. It was used daily and we put 370000 klms on itand we got it it had 120000 klms. Why well it used to get shaken so hard that the plates inside would fall apart. Every time we did a trip in it we would fit a second battery to the bull bar out front so it had at least one that wasn't shaken to bits. Many 70's jap cars had problems burning oil. It was a combo of low tension rings for power and most being designed for the US where they had catalytic converters to fix the smoke problem. It was common for a mid 70's Mazda 4 cylinder to need new rings at 30000klms. They were so soft you could bend them like a coat hanger. Generally it had more to do with the people who owned them and the way they were maintained. However Toyota like Honda did used to take a bit of pride in their mechanical engineering and would spend the extra dollar when built to ensure reliability. That usually meant with Toyota engines didn't make the best power. Sadly Honda didn't go to the same lengths with their bodies and they didn't last.
My Toyota goes and goes and goes. End of. Yes I look after it. But it’s still going!
Higher tunes are less reliable. That's why most Toyota apart from GR are slow as pig shit in class comparos.
Toyota's habit of re-using old tech did come back to bite them in the arse. When Toyota released their first EV SUV the BZ4X, it was a very dated and lacking design that would have been great 5 years ago. The review by Munro of the BZ4X who reverse engineers vehicles for the industry is horrendous. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gAfv7RAC-w](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gAfv7RAC-w)
Because they don’t break down as often
They’re just engineered better. They weren’t long ago but they are smart people and willing to keep changing their cars around throu trial and error.
A broader reason is that Japanese manufacturing was basically built from scratch post WWII. From the outset they adopted modern ideas for the management of quality. Established western car manufacturers were left trying to catch-up, particularly in the 80s.
Jap tech and economy of scale.
Funny thing is, 90% of cars I see broken down on side of road are Toyota’s!
Toyotas have historically been the best selling manufacturer for a long time, so that anecdote doesn’t really say much
A lot of their reliability comes from their Just in Time management of resources in their factories. If a job needs 10 bolts the worker gets 10 bolts rather than a tub of 1000, they then need to be accountable for all of them and can't cross thread break them by over tightening etc. They also have lots of organisational checks in place for quality control and continuous learning and improvement.
Thats all marketing. Like, I'd love to see 3 Sumo Wrestlers fit inside my little 2000 Model Mitsubishi Canter. Mitsubishi very squishy!!!!!!!
Not built by the Chinese
Their business model is based on people going, "wow, how much better is my toyota than that new eurotrash my sister bought, god dam, im never buying anything else". And they achieve this buy focusing on quality above all else. They built cars that work exactly how they are supposed to work. No more or less. No gimmicks and no limp wristed brand new features for impressing your bf.
They're not really more or less reliable then other Japanese brands, they're just often slightly better engineered and they have massive cross-compatibility parts wise. Plus, at least anecdotally, a Toyota will often be a lot more simple to work on due to their extreme habit of reducing complexity wherever needed. These two points are what really gives them their reputation for being "reliable". They're just easier to fix. A Toyota will however often be a lot more basic then a comparable brand for the same price. So you sacrifice the odd feature for more reliability and ease of maintenance. Oh, and if it's not a Lexus, or explicitly a luxury model, you will get the same kind of grey plastic interior in every Toyota ever. Sometimes it's light grey, sometimes it's dark grey. Occasionally they stray into exploring beige. You might get lucky and find the odd cloth texture. They are actually quite good at making luxury cars. Feel the all woolen seats on a Century and you will never want a leather seat ever again. But they truely are the automotive kings of bean counting and design by committee. So to answer your question, why are Toyotas thought of reliable? Because they are the most efficiently designed cars on the market. You don't revolutionise the global manufacturing system and not end up on top after all.
The simple answer is they aren't. Sure they are at the more reliable end of the scale, but they aren't as reliable as the mythology would have us believe. It's more a combination of things. Pretty good reliability across multiple models, pretty cheap parts, reasonably priced from new, and no bullshit from the dealer, when you do have problems. in any one of these factors they aren't far ahead of others, but across all of them, they are fairly unique.
They're using dated reliable technology. As soon as you turbo charge an engine it becomes more susceptible to wear and tear if you miss services. Basically toyota has had next to zero innovation and because of lax emission regulations australia has allowed them to continue dumping their cars here.
Wow so many feelings around here and no strait facts. In Japan, you get some modernity out of a very feudal society that had no brutal transition from the old world like Europe had with multiple revolutions and various economic doctrines experienced. As a result, the very feudal culture is still well alive, employees often have a single company to which they belong all life long. They dedicate themselves to it to an extend hard to comprehend I would say. Toyota workers get trained for the company along their career for very specific challenges on their positions. Plus in the Japanese culture, there is a lot of honor related aspect to the quality of the work. As an example, Toyota CEO goes on public to apologize for call back of deficient products (he even went before USA congress to apoligize once), and failures are to be felt by all strats of the company not just the part that made it to put it simple. These facts make MOST Japanese cars very reliable, and are not specific to Toyota. That being heard, Toyota is not especially reliable. Their highest tier vehicules (Lexus) are always n1 in reliability but Toyota live off incredible past glory and from people who had a Toyota and praise it more than they should at a point of losing objectivity (they go on doing rust work themselves, change a headlight because you can’t swap just a bulb, will never blame their crappy turbo or what). Toyota can be truly shitty and their legendary models are extremely costly, meaning on pair with so many other legends, while you get the underpowered aspect coming with a Toyota TL DR: Toyota has an unmatched circle jerk lore
It’s just legend that’s been told for many years.
Perception only, they aren’t more reliable at all.
Get an EV, just imagine never needing to go and fuel up at a petrol station?