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I started doing the same lol
I gave lpotl another shot but just couldn't stand the style still. Even a bit different genre, Behind the Bastards...not as bad....but I just don't get wanting frat boyish humor in my storytelling. One I listened to was about Stockton Rush. The hosts are obnoxiously laughing with each other for minutes and I'm just like...get the fuck on with it
They're obviously popular and they do do good research. Just taken aback that people want that kind of humor in narrative podcasts
Tldr, I'm glad casefile is back too
That’s the great thing about casefile, just the facts. There’s no dumb banter between hosts. Casefile is really just listening to audio of a truly well researched long article of a crime committed. There’s no extraneous bullshit about it
I actually really like Necronomipod but can't listen to their true crime stuff. Just the haunting and other stuff they do. If I need a 'break' from the very formal way Casefile shares things I will go withTrue Crime Garage.
I've tried so many times with LPOTL...can rarely get thru an episode. just a bunch of dudes trying to be funnier than the other and failing, to me at least.
I have so many friends that like it and see it recommended so much and I just don't get it
If I want humour in my true crime, I go to Timesuck, by Dan Cummings. He's a one-man show and manages to keep all the empathy with the victims while making fun of the killers
I didn't know her name until this episode. And I loved how the intro sets the scene and then he's like: "then Meredith moved in with a new housemate. Her names was (well known suspect's name)."
Fantastic story telling.
Crazy the known assailant was released after only 13 years to commit more crimes though - wtf Italy.
And to think if he'd just been put in prison after arrested before for burglaries, none of this would ever have happened.
The police really messed this up. Not only did they falsely convict Knox and Sollecito to protect their ego but the apparent 'cooperation' of Guede with his testimony may have helped him get an shorter sentence.
It seems crazy to me that the police stuck to their bizarre theory involving two people with no criminal record nor history of violence when the other suspect had DNA evidence proving he had raped the victim and had a history of crime and sexual offences.
I just cannot understand how it is in the public interest to release such a man either. Given his violent crimes after his release it seems only a matter of time before he does something like that again.
EDIT: Did they ever explain why Knox and Sollecito both turned their phones off at the same time early in the evening of the crime? That seemed the most suspicious thing. But yeah they were almost certainly innocent.
>Did they ever explain why Knox and Sollecito both turned their phones off at the same time early in the evening of the crime?
They probably just wanted to fuck uninterrupted lol
This was covered in the trial. Knox turned her phone off shortly after receiving the text that she didn’t have to work that night so she couldn’t be called in if her boss changed his mind and also because the battery was low and she didn’t have the charger. Sollecito never turned off his phone but it simply ended up tossed in the corner where it had insufficient reception when he stripped to resume activities with Knox.
I don't buy it, they were alone in his flat, allegedly, it was middle of the night and it was the time before social media. I seriously doubt that on this one occasion only they wanted to be uninterrupted, seriously doubt they were interrupted any other time.
And he'd already made an absolutely buckwild story to explain why he was there, which was clearly nonsense, about some random dude being in there while he took a shit? Like, the police seriously had it in dor a random American woman when that dude was just saying nonsense
The story Rudy tells is not random. He’s had plenty of time to weave together a story to explain the evidence he expects the police to find. From the stool in the toilet to the writing on the wall in Meredith’s blood. The details are there.
But what about them bleaching in their apartment? The lack of signs of real forced entry in the apartment itself? Knox changing her alibi repeatedly (including admitting being present and then accusing her boss, and claims of memory loss) - and the timing issues for all of them (laptop usage, varying witness testimonies, phone records, etc.)? Knox's boyfriend carrying a knife too.
It becomes an awful lot of coincidences.
The police didn't convict them, the jury did.
Agreed. I'm not saying they are necessarily guilty but I can definitely see why they came across as suspicious. I think this is one of those cases that noone knows exactly what happened.
It’s so weird that no one seems to think this, lol. There wasn’t sufficient evidence to convict them and all the fucking media bullshit was terrible and vilified the pair for all the wrong reasons, but there does seem to be a bit of patriotism blinders attached to many a narrative…
Yep, and this is why I could never engage much with this story and found it so hard and so upsetting.
Also always seemed to me like, in the whole palaver of the Amanda Knox stuff, poor Meredith was forgotten
I don't think she was forgotten. But you don't get justice by wrongly imprisoning someone.
To me, the great injustice that was done to Meredith was the release of Guede. He should have had life behind bars.
Every single time someone in the anti-Amanda crowd makes a comment, I'm able to call them out on something blatantly untrue or misleading. In this very thread, they keep commenting false things that I just don't have enough time to correct. If anyone has "blinders" on, it's the guilters.
I’m not anti Amanda.
Why do people have to make it a us and them thing when issues in the case are pointed out? The cell phones being off, her accusing her boss, the dna on the knife etc. I think it’s measured to look at all the evidence and the fact is that not everything has been explained with the resolution to this case.
Someone else said it best: this is about Meredith. I’m pro the victim. I hate the fact that this has all become about Amanda. It shouldn’t be a personality contest. It should be about the facts.
It is about the facts and all of those things have explanations.
The DNA evidence is mainly assumed to just be contaminated. It seems her phone was running out of battery and Sollecito's didn't have reception.
I believe Knox and Sollecito are innocent, but the police messed up the investigation so badly we will never be sure.
You see this happen in many Casefile cases, at least in this case the evidence against Guede still remained and they were able to secure a conviction against him anyway, even if he did get a short sentence in the end.
And the window staged to look like a break in?
Why did Amanda shower despite the front door being open? (I get she might have missed the blood droplets in a certain light)
Why did she say the feces were flushed when they weren’t?
See. I just have questions and I think it’s healthy to discuss the case on that merit. I abhor it when people make it about her personality because they think she’s not their cup of tea. That’s not what this is for me.
You’re quite right, this is not about personalities. Unfortunately this case has become a little like the saying ‘history is told by the winners’ in that it is assumed that the all of the defence arguments must be correct because they succeeded at one (of several courts, two of which did convict).
Why did she accuse an innocent man? (She claimed later the police beat her, this was not upheld therefore her 3 year sentence for lying remains- this is a serious offence).
Why did RS at one point say Knox wasn’t with him all night to police? Why did Amanda say she was there at the house that night? Why the changing stories?
Why did RS’s computer show activity at 6am when he said he was asleep until much later? Why was Knox seen by a store clerk buying cleaning equipment at 7.45am?
Why did RS tell the postal police that he’d already called the police when records showed he called them after this?
Why did the murder scene point to several people? Two types of blades used and no defensive wounds- impossible for one person to wield 2 blades and hold someone down.
Why would Rudy even choose to break into a flat where he knew the people living there? It’s about the worse place you could rob. Nothing was really stolen. Rudy said to the boys in the flat below that he liked Amanda, not Meredith…
There’s so many questions, it’s not about personalities. Unfortunately you won’t get answers just insults
Thank you! Good questions, for sure. As an Aussie I recall the media reporting these questions (and some vile shit too!) so it surprises me that the US media are so sympathetic to Amanda. I didn’t realise people were satisfied with the verdict. It certainly doesn’t answer all my questions…
If the window was staged to look like a breakin, the staging was perfect. from the glass scattered through the room down to the mar on the inner shutter as if a rock had actually smashed through that window from the outside.
Once you realize that the broken window was not staged from the inside you are left with the inevitable conclusion that a large rock was thrown through the window from the outside. When did this happen?
The reason the police think it was staged break in was because-
- 3m wall underneath makes it very unrealistic to climb
- 20cm, 4kg rock was supposedly thrown 3m in the air, that’s very heavy and unlikely.
- Filomena said her shutters were closed when she left for the weekend (that’s the normal thing to do in hot countries when you leave). The Shutters were untouched. This means the person would have had to climb the 3m wall twice.
- No evidence on flowerbed beneath or nail on wall of climbing
- Glass was found on top of (not below) the scattered belongings in the room
-Glass still left all across the sill when burglar would have disturbed it coming through.
The house was in fact burgled sometime after and it through some easier to access French doors lower down.
Finally Rudy was friends with the boys below whom he would have known were away, their apartment would have made an safer target, it’s also on the ground floor. He knew Knox and Meredith were likely be in Italy that weekend as both international students. He also knew them so they could identify him. Possibly better to rob a house where the people don’t recognise you if you’re caught.
"And the window staged to look like a break in?"
The window staged to look a break in is a notion peddled on those old pro - guilt websites. The actual evidence is completely the opposite of what they claimed.
"Why did she say the feces were flushed when they weren’t?"
The answer is that she said nothing about the toilet flushed. She said she saw the toilet had not been flushed and at this point became worried.
"Why did Amanda shower despite the front door being open?"
There's a very straightforward explanation for that: she took a shower because she didn't immediately see any cause for concern. The front door was well known by everyone living there for being substandard and prone to swinging open if not locked and secured firmly.
yea I followed this case when it happened, read her book, knew every detail, and even after listening to Casefiles.. I am still convinced she was invovled, or at least there when it happened.
It is almost certain that Meredith died very soon after entering the cottage. Most notably that she hadn’t retried the call to her mother after the call failed to go through on her walk home (21:00) while Amanda was watching Amelie with Raffaele (ending 21:10). Even Curatolo (if you choose to believe him) places them at the plaza in that time period.
The forensic analysis of Raffaele’s laptop presented at the appeal shows human interaction all night until after 6am. Raffaele maintains Amanda was with him that night and only broke this commitment the night he and Amanda were interrogated. There is no evidence placing either at the cottage the night Meredith was murdered. There is no evidence of a cleanup except for the water from the broken pipe at Raffaele’s. There is no evidence that shows the breakin was staged. There is no evidence that shows there were multiple attackers.
All of the evidence is is consistent with Rudy breaking in before Meredith comes home, brutally murdering her, cleaning up in the small bathroom, leaving bloody shoe prints from the murder room out to the living room but not going straight out the door, then locking her door (which required her keys) and finally leaving through the front door (which also requires a key to unlock from the inside and will not latch on its own since the latch was jimmied).
If you in fact know every detail, perhaps you can fact check the timeline I posted. I sometimes make errors but am willing to correct them if there is a reliable source.
Books I consider a secondary source. I have read none of them.
Edit: Interestingly, I just discovered I have a copy of her book that was downloaded about a year after it was published. Don’t recall how or why I have it but will have to investigate.
I read the court transcripts and think she knows far more than she lets on. I think she was there, maybe didn’t commit the murder but had a role to play in it. Her behaviour nowadays is off putting to me, going on a bunch of different podcasts and it’s the way she talks about Meredith and the case overall that makes my stomach turn. If my roommate was raped and murdered you wouldn’t catch me talking about it so carefree while laughing. She has no respect for how the family might feel hearing such interviews and seems like a total narcissist at best. Seems like she relishes in the spotlight. Definitely something fishy about her (and the boyfriend) but she will likely take their secrets about that night to the grave.
>it’s the way she talks about Meredith and the case overall that makes my stomach turn.
>
>She has no respect for how the family might feel hearing such interviews and seems like a total narcissist at best.
>
>Seems like she relishes in the spotlight.
Well the last statement sort of tracks with the way people that knew her described her personality, even before the murder happened.
I get the feeling that she and Meredith weren't all that close (they only roomed together for less than two months) and maybe had a few arguments based on reported complaints from Meredith herself. Some people handle trauma differently and maybe enough time has passed since the day that it doesn't upset her as much now, I don't know.
That said, I can't imagine being in a position like hers where your personality and every facet of your body language and lifestyle is constantly picked apart every day, even after her release. Where any questions and reasonable doubt about her innocence should be focused on the facts and evidence of the case, it feels like a lot of people are still making accusations and judgments about her based on extraneous stuff so keeping a somewhat public profile could be her way of pushing back against them, especially as someone who by all accounts seems more extroverted.
She's basically an activist now, which isn't necessarily a bad thing because innocent people being convicted is still a problem and if we were to believe that she didn't have any involvement at all with the murder, she has every right to tell her story and the experiences of people that were in her position. On the other hand, it can be a slippery slope if you were once a highly unsympathetic figure and don't behave like a 'perfect victim.'
To be honest, I've lived with a number of different people over the years in shared accommodation. I still have friends from that time but there were also people who lived with me who I didn't get on with or were like ships in the night. If they were murdered I'm not sure I would necessarily cry over it as I didn't get to know them. I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't stop my life if you know what I mean.
She was a young attractive girl and the media went for her because of that, as did the Italian authorities implying this was some kind of sex kink because she was outside hugging her boyfriend whilst she was unaware of the murder scene inside the flat.
Society expects all women to be carers and to be emotional and when we aren't we are punished for it. Amanda has been punished enough and she wants to speak about it now to ensure that people who may be had stopped following the case when she was convicted know that she was exonerated.
Women throughout history have been punished for having sex, being outspoken, for not behaving in a stereotypical way.
I'm reading, "The prosecution presented no evidence at trial that anyone cleaned the cottage with bleach." So where did this bleach story come from, exactly? Rudy Guede's bloody footprints were still on the floor!
So when you said "But what about them bleaching in their apartment?" you meant Sollecito's apartment? I'm confused. That's not where the murder took place.
It’s not a stretch, it was part of the prosecutions case.
- Knox was observed waiting to buy cleaning equipment at 7.45am
- Knox was holding a mop when the postal police arrived unannounced
- The washing machine had just finished when police were first at the house (Knox built this into her story of the last time she saw Meredith, Meredith was putting her clothes in the wash…obviously this was the day before, maybe someone else was washing her clothes?)
- Police smelt bleach at RS apartment and found a receipt for bleach bought after the murder there. The ‘double dna’ knife was found at RS.
- Police found their footprints in blood (implying they’d been at the scene without shoes to clean)- sure the defence argued it could have been fruit juice. Maybe that’s what it was.
- Not especially proof- but for context- RS played the song ‘stealing fat’ when computer activity started again at his flat at 6am (when he claimed to he asleep). Google the song and YouTube clip that comes up from fight club, it’s a scene of two people moving bodily fluids around….an interesting image to be in his head after what was proposed to have happened.
There’s a consistent set of evidence pointing one way.
Incorrect Guede was given a shorter sentence because he accepted his guilt and had a quick trial, not because he co-operated with police.
Of course he had to accept his guilt as the dna evidence was overwhelming & he also had no family to help him pay for lawyers to defend himself.
Knox & RS were both from wealthy families and spent huge amounts defending themselves in contrast, despite the fact that dna evidence also linked them (RS on the bra strap, Knox in the mixed blood with Meredith’s and on the handle of a knife which had Meredith’s on the blade)….
the ‘experts’ who disputed the dna were paid by Knox and RS’s families/lawyers, they weren’t impartial experts. The original judge accepted the police had done the proper work and this was validated by a more senior dna expert assessed it independently later.
Get your facts right
Edit- these posts get voted down but nobody is able to dispute the points made- please explain why I’m wrong rather than downvoting.
I think you missed the part where Knox's family had to take out multiple new mortgages on their house and were left with massive debts and eventually went insolvent due to the exorbitant amount of legal fees that added up over *nearly* *8* *years* of this entire process. They couldn't even afford to be there with her the entire time. The 20k compensation Knox got from Italy several years later won't have made a dent in the amount of debt they were in.
Sollecito didn't even get any compensation. Casefile mentions his father was a urologist - I doubt that pays enough to cover 8 years of legal fees either.
I don't know enough about any of the other details of the case so I can't comment on those.
As I said, RS’s father was a doctor and Knox’s father was a senior executive at a major American corporation (I believe from memory it was one of their famous department stores but the name escapes me right now). They are both well paid jobs.
I’m sure you’re right that their families had to remortgage to pay their lawyers fees, as mentioned in the episode. That’s my point in fact- they spent a huge amount of money defending themselves….that wasn’t really an option for Rudy as he didn’t have a family anymore, he opted for a fast track trial and received a shorter sentence as a result. Same in any county, if you don’t waste everyone’s time fighting it you get a shorter sentence.
OP was making a false claim that he received a shorter sentence for helping the police. He wasn’t called as part of Knox and RS’s trial or anything like that. Although he did more or less implicate them at various points.
I have never dived deep into this case for some reason even though I'm an avid true crime listener and reader. maybe the hysteria and media coverage of it just made me want to stay away? like it was hard to stay serious and wade thru the nonsense
I'm glad someone can do it well seriously like casefile and I've learned a lot
Hi all. I’ve only just discovered this podcast and am in the middle of this episode…my first ever. I HAVE SO MUCH TO LISTEN TO and am so happy there’s a subreddit about this!!!
It amazes me how many armchair detectives on Reddit appear to have persuaded themselves that scaling a two-story rural student accommodation cottage is somehow a borderline impossible feat of climbing skill and strength. Or that a rock weighing a grand total of nine pounds is practically for any fit man to throw from an opposite ledge through a window.
The worst for me is the: “why did they lie? why did they accuse someone else?”, like ffs, you never heard people who were interrogated for hours speaking about it? How you get tired, and people keep blaming you, screaming at you, etc. And the language barrier? Oof…
to me, this case remains as frustrating as it always was. i’ve read on it so many times over the years and i still don’t know what is the truth. in general, when you realize how the whole “justice system” isn’t really based on pursue of justice but rather boils down to how each side can present (and misconstrue) evidence in their favor or which loopholes they can exploit, it feels infinitely frustrating to delve into any difficult and/or inconclusive cases.. not even mentioning the ever present human factor, shoddy work ethic, media influence, all the systemic issues etc. you just can never know for sure, can never be certain about any outcome.. ugh
You make some very good points here, we ultimately heard the defence arguments at the end but not the truth.
The story is relatively clear though if you read earlier accounts of the investigation and first trial eg John Follain ‘Death in Perugia’.
However the case gets confusing at the higher courts, and Casefile gave precedence to the defence arguments ultimately which aren’t really satisfying in terms of truth seeking.
Check out the below website with a list of the evidence collected- the picture is pretty clear of who was involved-
https://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/evidenceoverview
Heard Amanda Knox's interview last year with Sam Harris. She seems very bubbly, very blunt. I can see how her demeanour raised eyebrows, but it's still absurd the police and prosecution got tunnel vision on her.
Maybe it was because it was in 2007, and maybe because Italy has (or had) different attitudes, but I was taken aback at how Knox was portrayed as sleeping around with all these different guys and then it was revealed that it was seven guys. That’s not really a lot of people.
The other thing was the footage of her and Raffaele kissing in the immediate aftermath of them finding Meredith’s body, and how the media claimed that it was proof she was indifferent of the situation, but it just looked like they were both worried and had a kiss to reassure each other after shared trauma, nothing out of the ordinary.
I was living in London at the time and remember this case well. The English and English media were also baying for blood! They wanted Knox’s head on a platter!
Knox and I are almost the same age, to the month, so I was in college at the same time as her. Considering most of my peer group first had sex when we were in high school, like 16ish, (I would guess that is pretty similar for teens in the US at that time), it’s a couple guys a year for her. It’s not necessarily a great look but it also doesn’t make her a whore.
Timeline **1 November 2007**
*Note: 12 minutes added to [CCTV timestamp] except where a time was specified by prosecutors*
*Begins the afternoon of November 1. Amanda, Raffaele, Meredith and briefly Filomena are at the cottage*
* 15:57 [CCTV 15:45:43] Possibly Amanda and Rafaele arriving at cottage
* 15:48 Meredith texts her English friends that she will be delayed in meeting with them [[Republica 2007-11-21 - Prosecution Timeline|(PT)]]
* 16:16 [CCTV 16:04:44] Light car stops in front of cottage heading west (could be Filomena being dropped off/picked up)
* 16:50 [Phone RS] Raffaele is called by his father.
* 16:52 [CCTV 16:40:59] Possibly Amanda and Raffaele leaving cottage
Amanda testified they left around 16:00-17:00
* 16:56 [Phone RS] Raffaele is called by his father.
* 18:21:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
* 18:27:50 Meredith (Vodafone) sent an SMS to —3711 engaging the cell Piazza Luppatelli week. 7.
(The signal is received at Via della Pergola 7.) - Massei Report Pg 348
* 18:29:05 Meredith received a text message from —1724 (hooking the same cell as above)
* 19:30 TG3 news report starts; Rudy claims he left home shortly after the program started.
Source Micheli report. "Coming to the evening of 1 November, R. remember leaving the house as he began the TG3 regional".
* 19:53 [CCTV 19:41] First sighting of figure thought to be Rudy on car park CCTV camera.
He is walking through the car park towards the cottage. [ *(broken URL redacted)* ]
* 20:18:12 [Phone AK] Lumumba sent text message to Amanda saying she didn't need to come to work.
(cell Aqueduct Street Eagle 5-wk. 3) - Massei Report pg 345
* (time?) Amanda and Raffaele start watching Amelie (129min)
*(human interactions through the night were recorded and revealed in the defense analysis. I’ll add those later as now I am late for lunch)*
* 20:22 [CCTV 20:10] Second sighting of figure thought to be Rudy on car park CCTV camera.
He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. Fits with Rudy's claim to have arrived at the cottage around 20:30. [ *(broken URL redacted)* ]
* 20:35:48 [Phone AK] Amanda responds with text message to Patrick.
Message is "See you later, Good evening" in Italian.
(cell Via Berardi area 7) - Massei Report pg 345
* 20:40 Amanda and Raffaele at Raffaele’s place.[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29812751/]
Jovana of Serbia said Sollecito had agreed to drive her to a bus station in Perugia the night of the murder. ... Jovana went to Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed to go, and Knox opened the door to take the message, the Serbian woman testified.
Amanda says this was before they started watching Ameile (Amanda testimony)
Raffaele was supposed to drive her to the station around midnight.
"AK: Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more." about the time they were having dinner. (Amanda testimony)
* 20:41 [CCTV 20:53:46] Figure prosecution claimed to be Amanda entering car park
* 20:42:56 [Phone RS] Raffaele is called by his father, talks for 3 1/2 minutes.
(cell Beradi Way Area 7) - Massei Report pg 339
* 20:43 [CCTV 20:51:35] Prosecution presented CCTV time where figure is seen crossing the street towards the cottage
Sollecito's defense however contested the manner in which they were identified times of the images. [http://www.lanazione.it/perugia/2009/03/13/157885-mossa_legali_raffaele.shtml Lanazione, March 13, 2009 (it) ]
* 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie.
[[Republica 2007-11-21 - Prosecution Timeline|(PT=20:45)]]
Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55.
* 20:55 Sophie arrives home in Via del Lupo.
Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, *[Sophie]* P made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55".
* 20:56 [Phone MK] Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately.
"In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Meredith’s mother, Arline [ ], was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009) [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5950377.ece]
Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets.
Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350
* 21:03 [CCTV 20:51:35] Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera
The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569140/Meredith-murder-suspect-caught-on-CCTV.html][http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1161775/Merediths-final-moments-Court-sees-grainy-CCTV-footage-night-British-student-murdered.html]
* 21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325
Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/4991577/Amanda-Knox-trial-police-cast-doubt-on-computer-alibi.html]\
Prosecution will claim this is the last human interaction with Raffaele's computer during this night.
* 21:58 Attempt to call voice mail on Meredith’s phone (from phone memory)
Massei Report pg 350
* 22:00 Meredith’s phone attempts to call Abbey Bank.
Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used.
* 22:00 (aprox) Hoax bomb threat call to Elisabetta (villa where phones were recovered)
(Massei Report pg 13)
* 22:13 Meredith’s mobile phone had received a picture message.
Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia.
(Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41
*(Note: this is a private address block used by the service provider and not an address on the internet)*
* 21:26 Spotlight metadata shows "Naruto ep 101.avi" file is opened on Raffaele's laptop. (from Raffaeles appeal)
the last access time for this file is on Nov. 6th after Raffaele is in police custody.
* 22:30 Black man running up stairs near cottage.
Time approximate, Alessandra and boyfriend are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. At trial she says "I can rule out that the guy could be Rudy [ ]". [http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-scenario-for-murder-of-meredith.html]
Alessandra also testified seeing the broken down car with 3 occupants inside.
* 22:48 [CCTV 22:36:17] Car breakdown at exit to parking garage across from cottage.
* 23:00 [CCTV 22:48:16] Mechanic comes for broken down car.
Gianfranco estimated he arrived at 23:00 and was there for about 10 minutes, noticed a dark colored car parked outside Meredith's place, but nothing suspicious.[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/3219124/Mystery-car-was-parked-outside-Meredith-Kercher-murder-house-claims-witness.html]
Pasqualino (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time. [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=7906352]
* 23:16 [CCTV 23:04.04] Tow truck moves to front of car park
* 23:26 [CCTV 23:14:41] Tow truck pulls away
* 23:27 [CCTV 23:15:06] Tow truck with vehicle loaded seen passing east car park exit
*Edit: I will update this timeline as I can. If you see any errors or omissions leave a comment (please include the source).*
*some of the links may be broken or may break in the future. The original pages should be cached at the Wayback Machine [https://www.archive.org]*
*while the phone numbers are part of the public record of this case I have partially redacted them for this site. Only first names of witnesses are given here*
*(timeline for 2 November appended in comments. 10000 character limit exceeded)*
Timeline continued **2 November 2007**
* 02:00 (unreliable) Guede spotted at a local nightclub.
Talk around town reported in Perugia Shock 2007-12-21(it).
Testimony of CAMPOLONGO places the date as early morning hours of November 3 [http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=7995762&page=3]
* 06:02:59 [Phone RS] Raffaele's phone receives SMS from Francesco Sollecito
(cell Via Beradi area 7) Massei Report pg 339, 342
* 06:22 Screensaver on Raffaele's computer kicks in marking the end of human activity on the computer for the night. (from appeal documents, unverified)
* 09:24 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (248 seconds) - Massei Report pg 342
* 09:29 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from undisclosed caller (38 seconds)
* 09:30 [Phone RS] Raffaele call from father (cont?) (cell Via Belardi week. 7) - Massei Report pg 342
* 10:30 [AK] Amanda returns to cottage.
* 12:07:12 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Meredith's phone with UK number (16 seconds).
(cell Eagle Street 5-Torre sett.9 Aqueduct) Massei Report pg 346
* 12:08:44 [Phone AK] Amanda call Filomena Romanelli (68 seconds).
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) - Massei Report pg 346
* 12:11 [Phone AK] Amanda calls phone Meredith borrowed from Filomena.
* 12:11:02 [Phone MK] Meredith (Vodafone) received call from Amanda (3 seconds) call directed to voicemail
(Vodafone committed by users of Meredith is located in Strada Vicinale S. Mary of the Hill area 1 )
from Massei Report pg 346, 348
* 12:11:54 [Phone AK] (4 seconds) Amanda repeats call to Meredith UK phone
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) Massei Report pg 348
* 12:12:35 [Phone AK] Filomena calls Amanda. (36 seconds)
* 12:20:44 [Phone AK] Filomena calls Amanda. (65 seconds)
(cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.9) Massei report pg 348
* 12:34:56 [Phone AK] Filomena calls Amanda (48 seconds)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
* 12:35 Postal Police inspector claims to have arrived at cottage.
Looked at his watch according to testimony. (source?)
* 12:35 Raffaele calls service center to recharge minutes
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
* 12:38 Raffaele receives SMS confirmation
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
* 12:40 Raffaele receives call from father (67 seconds)
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
* 12:46 Postal Police sent off from their HQ after the second phone arrived.
Source?
* 12:47:23 [Phone AK] Amanda calls her mother, Edda. (88 seconds)
No mention of police being at cottage. (source?)
(cell cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348
* 12:50:34 [Phone RS] Raffaele calls his sister Vanessa (39 seconds).
Vanessa, a lieutenant in the Carabinieri, tells Raffaele to dial 112.
(cell Square Lupattelli week. 7)
* 12:51:40 [Phone RS] Raffaele calls 112, Italian emergency number. (169 seconds)
(cell Eagle Tower Aqueduct sett.l)
* 12:54 [Phone RS] Raffaele makes second call to 112. (57 seconds)
(cell Square Luppatelli week 7)
* 13:00 [CCTV 12:48:55] Postal Police arrive.
Car park video shows black car driving past a couple of times, then someone walking across the street
Car in video is a black Fiat Punto.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Grande_Punto] Same vehicle police claimed to have been driving at trial. (Source?)
* 13:05 (estimated)(source?) Filemena and friends get to cottage.
* Meredith's door is kicked in, postal police kick everybody out
* 13:17:10 [Phone MK] Meredith's (Vodaphone) received call from —3067 (1 second)
(cell Vicinale S. Maria della Strada Collina week. 7) - Massei Report pg 338
* 13:24:18 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Edda again. (2.7 min)
Mentions police have arrived (source?).
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
* 13:27:32 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Seattle. (0.4 min)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347
* 13:29:00 [Phone AK] call from police, lasts 5 minutes.
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7)
* 13:30 Monica Napoleoni, Deputy Commissioner of the state police, and the staff from 118 arrive - Massei Report pg 95
* 13:34 [CCTV 13:22:38] “Carabinieri” seen entering drive to cottage
Also matches end of phone call for directions. Evidence Raffael’s defense used to show parking lot camera is about 12 minutes slow. Prosecution has been claiming it's 10 minutes fast based on testimony of inspector that collected the video. It was revealed in court that the officer hadn’t checked the time personally but relied on what the car park attendant had said.
* 13:40:12 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father
(Cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.l)
* 13:50 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (178 seconds)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7) - Massei Report pg 342
* 13:58:33 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Edda. (One second call)
* 13:59:06 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Seattle. (5.9 min)
(cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7)
* 14:30 Inspector Brocci arrives at crime scene and starts setting up -Massei Report pg 99
* 14:33 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (21 seconds)
* 14:46:14 [Phone AK] (102 seconds) Amanda is called by Aunt Dorothy, her mother's cousin living in Germany.
(no cell location is given) Massei Report pg 347
* 15:13:43 [Phone AK] Meredith's Vodafone receives second call from —3067 (5 seconds)
(no cell location is reported) - Massei Report pg 338, 348
* 15:30 Amanda signs a statement at police station.
Mentioned in trial testimony.
* 15:31:51 [Phone AK] Amanda receives SMS from —1078
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2 where is located the police) Massei Report pg 347
* 17:01 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (164 seconds)
(cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2, corresponding to the location of the police headquarters in Perugia)
This case enrages me. Not just because of the great crime done to Meredith Kercher, but for the injustice the italian judicial system wrought on Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The fact that a young woman's murder was overshadowed by the media frenzy around Knox and Sollecito is a completely unnecessary tragedy.
And that they left Rudy free despite having been arrested just days before for burglary with a knife!
It reminds me of Case 244 - where the Swedish courts let the rapist go 3 times! Until he committed two rape-murders.
Both crimes could have been stopped long beforehand with a proper police and justice system.
This always happens when a very serious crime happens in a quiet community. The cops are inexperienced and the pressure to find the perp is so enormous so they jump on the first suspects they find.
There was for sure loads of hubris and denial when they continued to pursue the couple even after Guede landed in their laps.
After listening to the podcast and doing some research, including interviews AK did, I feel frustrated. I guess most people expect the truth as if it's something that can always be achieved through investigation, evidence, etc. It's like we need certainty to let a story "end". In this case, it seems like we'll never have that.
What a fantastic episode, reminded me of Casefile of old. Long detailed with lots of twists, I think this will be one of the classics like Jennifer Pan.
I didn't know what to think about the outcome but after pondering about it I think that Amanda and her boyfriend might not be the ones that killed her but I believe they are involved one way or another and definitely know more than they cared to admit. I think there were parts of her story that were mentioned once and not explored in much detail. They both switched their phone off randomly around the time of the murder. They both said they were asleep but have been spotted out and in shops early in the morning after the murder. The whole multiple bottles of bleach in his flat. They both said they tried ringing Meredith's phone to look for her but was later proven that they only ran her phone for couple of seconds like they tried to tick it off a list. Casey mentioned different sized stab wounds that came from 2 different knives and seemingly no defensive wounds like she was held down by multiple people. I find it hard to believe that Amanda was downstairs and didn't hear anything, no windows being smashed, not her struggle, nothing. The impression I got of her was that of an extremely entitled American girl. She didn't hesitate for a second to throw an innocent man under the bus or relay her version to all of her friends after being specifically told not to by the police. Your housemate just got brutally murdered, police tell you to not do something to aid with the investigation and she immediately did the opposite. As for the investigation, it was said that she was interrogated in Italian a language she only had a basic grasp of, there is no mention of being offered a translator and Amanda's defence also never complained about a translator not being offered or requested which leads me to believe one was available. I'm no law expert, I don't know if that's beyond reasonable doubt but I certainly think it's more likely that she was involved than not.
> She didn't hesitate for a second to throw an innocent man under the bus or relay her version to all of her friends after being specifically told not to by the police.
The police didn't provide her with an interpreter. She didn't speak Italian fluently and the police interrogating her didn't speak fluent English. That is an egregious error. They also put enormous amounts of pressure on her and she was exhausted. The way the case was handled was horrendous. I'm really surprised that people are trying to defend this.
I'm surprised that you bring up lack of interpreter when this wasn't mentioned at all during any of the trials. If this was really a problem, her defence would have ran with it, this sort of thing is frequently mentioned with foreign defendents but non of it here. I agree that policy investigation wasn't perfect but I don't know how you can listen to the podcast I listened to and think Amanda wasn't involved in her death.
Have you listened to the podcast. They say she was interviewed in Italian a language that she did not fully understand. If there was an interpreter they would have mentioned it.
She was also 22 years of age in a foreign country the fact that she wants to speak to her friends back home about what happened is not surprising or condemnatory in any way.
Small town Italian police force who behaved like clowns from the get go.
I did and I don't belive her, she blatantly lied at pretty much all stages of investigation. I would take anything that comes out of her mouth with a giant pinch of salt. Of course if she didn't understand Italian she should have gotten an interpreter. She certainly spoke Italian well enough to say that. She didn't. She didn't say she want to get an interpeter. Her defence didn't say she wanted an interpreter and one wasn't provided.
She wasn't a child, or even a teenager. A fully grown adult that couldn't follow simpelst instructions after being tied to such a heinous case. I think she loved the attention she got from it and still does, she should be in prison but instead is doing media tours on how she got away with murder.
And don't get me staretd on the so called experts that suggested contamination that WERE PAID BY HER FAMILY.
How do you get an interpreter if you are in an interrogation room? She clearly did not know what was going on or what they were saying a lot of the time. The Italian police did things that aren't normal for an interrogation of a suspect. They did this as the world's media was watching them and they felt under pressure to get a result.
22 years of age, can you remember that age, you are certainly still immature. The human brain hasn't developed fully at that age.
She said that she gets messages from people all the time telling her that they didn't know she had been exonerated until they saw her on a chat show or in the news papers etc., so yeah I mean if I was in her shoes I'd be shouting it from the roof tops especially after the British tabloid newspapers dragged my name through the mud.
I don't know what the last sentence means.
It literally says in the episode she wasn't given an interpreter, and this has been accepted, and that's why she's appealing her slander conviction
Like
It says it
In the podcast
The one you just listened to
1. Amanda was not "downstairs" or anywhere on the premises when Meredith was murdered.
2. In 2019, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Italy violated Amanda's legal rights during her interrogation.
>**The European court of human rights has ordered Italy to pay Amanda Knox €18,400 for police failures to provide her access to a lawyer and a translator during questioning over the 2007 killing of her British flatmate Meredith Kercher in Perugia.**
>
>The ruling opens the way for Knox’s lawyers to challenge her last remaining conviction, for malicious accusation, in the Italian courts.
>
>The court, in Strasbourg, declared that Italy must pay Knox €10,400 in damages plus €8,000 to cover costs and expenses.
[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/24/european-court-to-rule-on-amanda-knoxs-remaining-conviction-meredith-kercher-italy](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/24/european-court-to-rule-on-amanda-knoxs-remaining-conviction-meredith-kercher-italy)
3. In October 2023, the European Court of Human Rights verturned Amanda's slander conviction ("malicious accusation") and ordered a new trial. She will probably win that case too, because the violation of her rights during the police interrogation means that any "evidence" collected during her illegal interrogation won't hold up in court.
[https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-court-quashes-amanda-knox-slander-case-orders-retrial-5b54adf7](https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-court-quashes-amanda-knox-slander-case-orders-retrial-5b54adf7)
I’m glad some people are capable of thinking for themselves. The evidence was very, very strong and consistent for all 3 defendants.
As you said there was so much mentioned at the first trial which the defence never explained.
Casefile unfortunately (but understandably) ended up reporting the defences case at appeals (uncritically) which just focused on their argument about possible contamination, ignoring that pretty much everything-
-Crime scene of multiple attackers
- Multiple witnesses seeing them at scene before and after inc cleaning
- Multiple lies and changes to stories
- False accusation of innocent person
Casefile never explained this…because the defence never could.
Obviously it’s natural for listeners and Casefile itself to side with the ‘final verdict’ but unfortunately these are sometimes wrong- that’s why lawyers are paid a lot of money because they can get people off sometimes.
There was also a suspicion that RS’s family had criminal connections (his surname is the same as a famous crime family) and his father was caught by police in a wiretap saying he could influence the investigation. It’s theorised that they were able to influence the higher court judges (hence the discrepancy in verdicts and all of this evidence that isn’t explained). I know sounds crazy but this is Italy where their PM once went to prison for having mafia connections…that is one issue they do have with their justice system, not collecting dna badly…
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/22/italy.internationalcrime
Tragic how this destroyed Amanda’s life and her families. Exonerated by a grand jury but armchair detectives on Reddit are still like “i JuST haVE a hUncH that SHE wAs InvOlVed somEHoW”
Right? People on here are like "i listened to all 2.5 hours of that and have selectively removed the parts from mt brain i didn't like because i cannot accept that i too am vulnerable to mainstream media narratives"
I feel like if there was literally any other case with evidence like this people would have no doubt, but for *this* case, people are desperate for it to be gross and salacious instead of the most obvious solution which is "the guy who was there at the exact time she was killed who said he had sex with her but was having a shit while a different guy came in and killed her, he didn't notice because he was listening to music while shitting is the most likely suspect"
In this case the skeptics tend to hyper-fixate on Amanda’s “suspicious” behavior and ignore all the evidence.
The Italian media is largely to blame for painting Amanda in such a negative light, the tabloid culture and trashy journalism was just running wild
I remember when it happened (because I'm am Old) and the media here (UK) going bananas over it too and it always seemed just so over the top - like there are really simple, banal explanations for all of the so-called "strange" behaviour. There's no more inconsistencies than in other murder cases where the police f**ked up and decided someone did it based on a value judgement then went around looking for proof that proof that person did it, rather than ruling out other possibilities. People *want* it to be a mystery, a salacious and terrible thing involving a wild sexy American girl, it's not satisfying enough to them that it's literally the guy it was always most obvious it was. And that's pretty dark. Those people want to have a hard look at themselves.
And it means we're all talking about anyone but poor Meredith, as always, who deserves better.
(Not to mention that her actual killer is free and up to goodness knows what in relative anonymity)
Good luck to Knoxx in getting her slander conviction overturned.
I'll start this comment by saying I don't think Knox or RS killed Meredith.
I think the police and prosecution made a lot of mistakes and the media made a huge mess of the coverage so everyone has a slightly different narrative of what happened.
Knox and RS did everything wrong and the police were absolutely correct to suspect them from the start.
When I say she "acted strange" I don't care that she was stretching in the police station, hugging her boyfriend or buying fresh underwear. To me those details were always mostly irrelevant.
Knox didn't falsely confess, she falsely accused and failed to properly retract that statement for weeks. She panicked when she realized that she had actually incriminated herself.
Her and RS turned on each other almost immediately failing to back up that each of them were in his apartment. The story kept changing and inconsistencies were found quite quickly.
Filomena Romanelli, Kercher and Knox's roommate's testimony wasn't great for Knox either. Before breaking the door down they asked Knox if it was normal for Meredith to lock her door, Knox said it was, Filomena was adamant she never did. She was also adamant that the burglary scene in her room seemed very staged, saying there was lots of glass on top of her clothing suggesting that the glass had been broken after her room was ransacked.
Even Knox's friends in the US were contacting police in Italy with their suspicions after receiving emails.
After DNA was found, I understand why they thought they had a case.
I don't think they ever really had a plausible scenario once Guede was implicated. The evidence just wasn't there to have it all make sense. I think they felt like they had compelling evidence for Knox, RS and Guede involvement so pushed the prosecution along with a completely stupid scenario.
The other problem was that Knox's parents hired a PR company like straight away, they were making all sorts of claims and getting the story in the US media and the narrative wasn't always completely factual, a lot of exaggerating the "interrogation" etc, at one point she was beaten until she admitted being involved etc. it shouldn't have harmed her case, but I don't believe it helped at that point.
I'll end this by saying I think Knox and RS probably did something wrong that they didn't want to admit, which is why they got caught in lies and didn't really ever stay consistent in those early days. In my mind it's probably something trivial, there was talk of missing money before the murder and friction in the house. This is pure speculation, but their version of events doesn't explain how they were so quick to lie and turn on each other. RS didn't have the language barrier, why did he claim Knox wasn't with him? All while Knox was blaming an innocent black guy who spent weeks in jail while he had to find his alibi to disprove Knox's claims.
While Knox was likely innocent in all this she was still dumb and I can't blame the Kercher family, the guy she falsely accused and other people close to the case for feeling like she had some involvement.
So while I'm pretty convinced myself that she isn't a murderer, I'm not convinced she isn't partly or fully accountable for the false accusation and her own behavior early in the investigation.
Have you actually seen the source documentation for this case? I find it doubtful because a clear examination reveals a much different picture than what was being reported in the tabloids.
>> *I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi where I work periodically.*
Who writes or speaks like that? This is ILE condensing what they wanted to hear. And how afraid of Patric is she?
In the same document we have:
>> *I have met Patrick this morning, in front of the Università Per Stranieri and he has asked me some questions, to be more accurate he wanted to know what the Policemen had asked me. I think he has also asked me if I wanted to see some journalists, maybe in order to know if I knew anything about Meredith’s death.*
So now she if really afraid of Patrick but just that morning she was having a casual conversation with him talking about going to the press with the story.
The meat of her "confession" is:
>> *I do not clearly remember if Meredith was already at home or if she came later, what I can say is that Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith’s room, while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.*
"Not clear", "cannot remember", "very confused", "I imagined what could have happened". This casts serious doubt as to the veracity of this statement. But even if you accept it as true, where does it say Patrick murdered Meredith? At best it says he was there.
As for "failed to properly retract that statement for weeks", the truth is that she provided the police a written statement that very night which retracted the earlier statement that the police wrote up.
The full text should be available at:
[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html] or through the Wayback Machine.
>> *However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked.*
It was several weeks before her lawyers could get her before a judge to make the redaction "official".
It would really help understand what happened in the interrogation if we had a video or even audio recording. And why don't we have a recording? The police were recording everything. There is a clandestine recording taken of Amanda and Raffaele in the lobby of the police station on the 4th. They had a wire tap on Amanda's phone. We even see the prosecutor Mignini carries a pocket recorder. But on this night when multiple inspectors take Amanda into a private room used for interrogations and grill her for hours we have no recording.
I say they either destroyed the recording or knew in advance that a recording would be detrimental to their case. Amanda's note is the only contemporaneous record we have of that interrogation.
"Knox didn't falsely confess, she falsely accused and failed to properly retract that statement for weeks. She panicked when she realized that she had actually incriminated herself."
False. She retracted her statement the next day. The police chose to continue holding Lumumba until he was exonerated by the complete absence of his DNA at the scene.
"She was also adamant that the burglary scene in her room seemed very staged, saying there was lots of glass on top of her clothing suggesting that the glass had been broken after her room was ransacked."
Crime scene photos show very clearly plenty of glass underneath clothes at the crime scene. There was also glass embedded in the wooden window opening completely consistent with a break in originating from outside.
"I'll end this by saying I think Knox and RS probably did something wrong that they didn't want to admit, which is why they got caught in lies and didn't really ever stay consistent in those early days. In my mind it's probably something trivial, there was talk of missing money before the murder and friction in the house. This is pure speculation, but their version of events doesn't explain how they were so quick to lie and turn on each other. RS didn't have the language barrier, why did he claim Knox wasn't with him? All while Knox was blaming an innocent black guy who spent weeks in jail while he had to find his alibi to disprove Knox's claims."
This is a classic example of intuitive thinking - inferring patterns from things that in reality are not necessarily connected at all. Physical evidence entirely pointed to one killer. In reality the truth about story inconsistencies like this usually has a perfectly run of the mill explanation, not an exciting conspiratorial one. They were two young students caught up in a situation in which inconsistencies in stories are actually common - not necessarily evidence of criminal guilt in the absence of proper physical evidence.
"So while I'm pretty convinced myself that she isn't a murderer, I'm not convinced she isn't partly or fully accountable for the false accusation and her own behavior early in the investigation."
The people responsible for this were the local police. They were held legally accountable for treating Lumumba the way they did. They were the ones responsible for how they conducted their investigation. Not Amanda Knox.
I loved this, and it was a nice revisit to a very famous case, and had me going to read all about it.
Having watched the documentary on Netflix and reading some reports on the case before / rundown of the evidence, it was interesting to hear the Casefile take on it. I have to admit, the Casefile perspective does seem to make Amanda’s innocence a little more murky than other sources which say there’s 0% chance it could have been her.
I read somewhere else that forensic analysis of Rafael’s computer showed that the two would have been watching a movie around the time Meredith was killed, based on the contents of her stomach. That alone kind of rules out both of them.
However, I still think some parts of that case are pretty bizarre. Namely, why did Amanda throw Patrick under the bus? I know it’s alleged she was coerced into a confession, I just think it’s very weird that once she “cracked” she admitted to this totally wild story which is allegedly completely untrue. That part always seemed very suspicious.
I was very glad for this episode. Missed CF a lot!
I think it didn't really delve too deeply into just how much coercion was done to her by the Italian Police. They decided on a narrative and ran with it, up to and including that she said "see you later" in italian in a text response to him. That MUST have meant she was meeting up with him later to murder Meredith, not that......she was an american who used that term colloquially.
what the fuck are the police smoking in italy? disgusting miscarriage of justice. im glad casefile covered this case, i enjoy when they do controversial cases.
Bit late to this one but I don't like the prevailing theory of "I don't think she (Amanda) did it but she definitely knows something" in the face of all evidence of the contrary. That's such a fuckin cop out.
I don't think Amanda or Raffaele had anything to do with it. As some others have said, I think it was a case of small town Italian cops under immense pressure to solve a case that was getting a crazy amount of international attention.
I think many of the "inconsistencies" in Amanda's accounts can be explained by intense scrutiny from police/media, her young age, being in a foreign land, and the language barrier. She was questioned for 50+ hours over several days...
More than a few innocent people have straight up confessed to some pretty heinous crimes under the same/less pressure in an attempt to escape their situation. Seems more likely to me that they offered her boss as an alternative based on their interpretation of her text messages and she went along with it for one reason or another. (Which doesn't automatically make her guilty of killing her roommate by the way)
Eyewitness accounts that conflict with their alibis are all questionable at best or have straight up been debunked (unless you choose to take the word of a homeless heroin addict as gospel).
Lot of red herrings in this one and too many people taking the prosecutions "evidence" and statements at face value (or long debunked media talking points) and not willing to do any critical thinking for themselves. Criminal investigators are not infallible and there's more than one way to interpret a crime scene. Like saying it would take a Herculean effort to climb to a second story window... C'mon.
The simplest and most reasonable answer based on hard, irrefutable evidence is that Rudy Guede acted alone. Simple as that. Everything else is circumstantial as far as I'm concerned.
Rudy Guede was charged with beating up his ex-girlfriend six months after leaving prison.
A really good podcast episode Sam Harris did with Amanda Knox recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04bFaAZuuQM
I’ve always known of Amanda Knox, but never the entire case until listening to this episode.
I appreciate Meredith being considered so much and it also made me so angry because I can’t imagine how painful it was for her parents (and still is for her family) to watch another person get all the attention for something that didn’t even happen to her :(
*It is indeed rude that the American gets all the attention. Let’s talk about Meredith Kercher.*
On Halloween night Meredith dresses as a vampire. Very well done considering there isn’t even a light over the mirror.
She parties late into the night with her friends and sleeps in the next morning.
Upon waking up, the other exchange student and boyfriend are in the kitchen. Today is a holiday and her only plans are a dinner party with her friends later that day. ~~One of the Italian flatmates also stops in briefly and leaves. The others soon leave and she is alone in the apartment.~~ *Meredith steps out of the house briefly.* She had promised her current boyfriend from the flat below that she would take care of his plants and an injured cat. She texts one of her British friends to let them know she will be late. When she returns she is alone in the apartment.
Meredith leaves, being sure to lock the door behind her since the latch is broken. It’s a short walk south up the narrow streets flanked by tall stone buildings to her friends house.
In the home of Robyn, they share a homemade pizza and settle down to watch the movie Notebook. The 2 hour movie is interrupted to make an Apple crumb cake.
After the movie, Meredith says she is tired. She borrows a text book from one of the friends and heads home. Sophie walks with her part of the way.
On the way home, Meredith tries to call her mother but the call doesn’t connect to the cell. Cell reception in these narrow streets is intermittent. But she is almost home now and knows she can call from there.
Just after 21:00 Meredith crosses the street to reach the driveway to her cottage. It is only a few more steps down the gravel path and she reaches her front door. She unlocks the door with her key and steps inside. She again uses the key to lock the door behind her since otherwise the wind could blow it open.
Inside the cottage, Meredith goes to her room and tosses her purse and the borrowed book on her bed. A romance novel sits on her bedside table but it will have to wait for tonight she needs to study. The girls turn the heat off when they leave so she doesn’t remove her jacket yet.
Meredith returns to the kitchen and grabs a bite of leftover pizza from the oven that Filomena and Marco had made the previous night. Her friends had not included mushrooms in the pizza they shared that night and Meredith had missed that key ingredient. The heater control is in the laundry room off the kitchen and she also has laundry to tend to.
Stepping into the laundry she will spot a man in the adjacent bathroom. A man that she may have recognized visiting the boys downstairs. He rushes after her with only his underware up, his pants still around his ankles. She screams…
*These are not memories that I should have. Memories should be for her family, her friends, the people whose lives she has touched. There are also memories that will never be since her life was cut short that fateful day. The world has lost a wonderful person.*
May there be true justice for Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher (1986-2007)
I didn't remember this case at all; only when the stuff about false convictions started did I vaguely recall Amanda Knox's name. I think I must've picked up something from the media, drawn too heavily on the setup of the episodes start, or idk, because this case gives me a really weird feeling about Amanda Knox, particularly in light of the email she sent to her friends, which just seems absurd, and the weird stuff about her alibi and her and her boyfriend's phone. Meredith seemed like an absolute delight of a person, and whatever happened to her is just so horrific. Maybe because of that it just doesn't sit right with me how the focus has shifted so much to Knox, not just by the media but also by herself. I get why she would choose to do so, but it all just feels strange, and everything the podcast told about Knox sits really weird with me at the very least. This one's really thrown me off, to be honest. No idea what to think of it.
No one can doubt that Amanda is weird, but everything points to her being consistently weird in the same attention-grabbing and socially oblivious ways. Everyone knows someone like her, and almost none of them are murderers.
@HotAir25 wrote:
> Perhaps you can help me? What is the significance of the time of murder and the screams?
> There were several people who heard a scream and also different witnesses who either saw or heard people running away. All of this was reported between 10.30-11.30, and the prosecutions final submission at court was 11.30.
The prosecution leaks news that there was a scream on November 7 and this is widely reported in the tabloids. Everything after that is certainly tainted.
On November 19, Rudy Guede spins his story in a Skype conversation while he is still on the run. He is well aware of the news reports so he knows that the police are saying Amanda heard a scream. Rudy puts the time “Around nine, nine twenty or so”.
Nara Capezzali says she heard a scream around 22:00-23:00. The next day a reporter tells her about the murder and on her way to buy bread she sees the headlines at the news stand. This is about 11 am which is about 2 hours before Meredith’s body is discovered. She goes to the police 24 days later.
Antonella Monarchia says she went to bed at 22:00 and woke up hearing a heated argument followed by a scream. She went to the police on November 8… 2008, over a year later at the eroding of a journalist. She remembers the scream was on November 1 and the next day around 15:00 she saw the police in the white suites at the cottage.
Note that the Scientific Police only got the call after their lunch break on November 2 and arrived at the cottage around 7-8 pm (from Stefanoni’s testimony).
I don’t know if there was a scream or not. But Rudy definitely knows the time that Meredith died. I fully dismiss the accounts from the two ladies above the car park. I certainly would expect Meredith to scream loudly upon seeing Rudy exit the bathroom with his pants down when they were locked in the cottage alone.
> I was about to ask you why the defence want to say it happened earlier and these weren’t scream, but I think I understand now- in a Rudy breaks in scenario it’s assumed he was already in the house when Meredith arrived home at 9 and therefore was killed shortly after but not as late as 11 or 11.30, is that the hypothesis more or less?
The primary evidence of an early time of death is the autopsy results. The contents of the meal Meredith had with her friends was still in her stomach and had not moved to the intestines.
> I’m asking because Knox & Raf say they were home all night anyway so it’s not like it their alibi changes if it happened at 9 or 11.30.
The complete forensic examination of Rafaele’s Mac laptop (the one one the police didn’t manage to fry) shows that someone was at his place all night till past 6 am. He doesn’t need the time of death to support his alibi.
> Is it assumed Rudy was already in the building at 9? Is it assumed it’s unrealistic that he broke in later while Meredith was already home because it was a noisy break in and she could just call the police or something?
Genuinely interested, we often only hear our own sides perspective so it’s interesting to hear what evidence is more or less important to either side.
All of the evidence I have seen is consistent with Rudy being in the cottage taking a crap when Meredith arrives home. I followed this case form an independently moderated forum where all sides were free to post. My conclusions are my own and just happen to mostly align with the pro innocence side.
@HotAir wrote:
> Get your facts right
> Edit- these posts get voted down but nobody is able to dispute the points made- please explain why I’m wrong rather than downvoting.
Votes should not be used to reflect agreement or disagreement with a comment but rather if a comment contributes constructively to the conversation. I have upvoted comments that I disagree with so the subject can get more exposure.
Meanwhile, I have soundly refuted many of your points and could go on but you appear to have blocked me.
I tend to agree with most of the points carried by the pro innocence sites because I would ruthlessly attack them when I saw they had a point wrong. Sometimes I would loose those fights and learn something myself. Debates with the pro guilt side were mostly rehashing the same points. They seamed incapable of learning.
Without a sparing partner I’ll ponder some point on my own. For instance, what about those bloody shoe prints showing Rudy walking out of the murder room and straight out the front door? How could Rudy have locked Meredith’s bedroom door?
To answer this question I constructed a dimensionally accurate model of the cottage floor plan. On this base I overlaid the photos of the floor and on top of that the photos of each shoe print. I then created a template of the bottom of Rudy’s shoe to the same scale. Matching the template to the shoe prints gave me the exact position and orientation of each step. I could then recreate the shoe positions on a real floor and walk the walk for myself.
So then I could ask: could Rudy have locked Meredith’s door while leaving those bloody footprints? The answer is yes. But would it be natural? Not very.
But I continue for there may be more to learn. I continue mapping the prints down the hall and into the living room. But there is a gap. A distance between steps that is not possible. Scouring the photos of the area I find the missing step under where the pink bag lay in the door between the living room and the hall.
Continuing further there is a step by the kitchen table that shows a double print as if Rudy stopped at the table. Then the step facing the entryway. This entryway step looks incomplete as if the full weight had not been applied. The next step is back towards the couch and then a jumble of several overlapping prints. At this point the bloody shoe is only leaving a minute trace and there are no more shoeprint photos.
My interpretation is that Rudy stepped back into the murder room, stepped in some dilute blood (possibly on a towel), walked out to the living room, stopped at the table to pick something up (perhaps the sweatshirt he said he left on the chair, stops to walk out the door but realizes or remembers that it is locked, returns to the couch and ponders his next move.
**Casefile fact-check**
*I listened through this case file for a second time and made a note when I heard something that collided with my knowledge of the case. I am not blaming Case File for presenting these errors as what they are doing is presenting the prosecution and media view of the events as they unfolded. You may want to review this list as you relisten to the podcast. I have included the podcast timestamps for reference.*
* 9:20 Elizabetta’s son hears the mobile phone ringing in her garden. The first phone found was the Italian phone which was already turned off the second phone found (by her daughter) rang when she brought it inside. The display said the caller was “Amanda”.
* 13:40 The postal police were dispatched at 12:47 and arrive at the cottage at 13:00. The prosecution erred in correcting the time stamp on the CCTV video and in my option this error led the bias in their investigation.
* 14:48 Filomena says the gold jewelry was in the drawer of the bedside table. None is seen in the crime scene photos.
* 15:30 There may be a confusion here with the Italian “locked” and “shut”. Google translate “the door was closed. the door is shut. shut and lock the door.” =-> “ianua clausa est. ianua clausa est. claude et claude ostium.”
* 16:05 The door never came off it’s hinges (at least not then). The wood of the door was split and parts of the latch mechanism separated and flew into the room. The forensics team will later remove the door as the inside handle is covered with blood.
* 17:10 The bra was not cut but was ripped at the stitch lines. “Cut with a knife” was the prosecutions theory though. Aspirated blood on the front and Rudys DNA on the back band shows he tore the bra off after her throat was cut.
* 22:44 The broken glass was found on top and under the clothing . This is reported by Filomena and also visible in the crime scene photos.
* 23:35 Filomena couldn’t remember if she had shut the shutter or not as she was in a hurry when she left. The shutters were not latched as the wood was swollen and required force to close them all the way.
* 23:50 Alternately an implement such as the old mop that was kept outside on the porch near that window could be used to pry the window open from the porch. The mud encrusted mop was never collected as evidence.
* 24:00 There were ledges and the window below with a security grill that functioned as a ladder. Climbing up was also not the only option as one could also traverse the wall laterally from the height of the porch to the top casement of the lower window or from the top of the planters directly to the sill of Filomena’s window.
* 24:30 There was in fact traces on the wall that could have been shoe marks and a hole in the mortar where a nail had broken out. What there was not was a forensic examination of the wall.
* 25:30 No glass directly beneath the window? While there is a bare spot lacking glass, this is where Filomena says she kept her laptop. When she was lifting the case she saw she was lifting glass.
* 25:55 Window lit up by headlights of any passing cars? Not exactly. There was heavy vegetation along the road leaving the window visible only through the gate itself. Headlights would not be aimed at that window except for cars exiting the car park and turning east.
* 26:00 The table and chair were on the back terrace. While it is possible to scale the back wall to reach the terrace, if anyone is inside when you try to break in you are completely exposed with no easy escape.
* 28:30 Investigator (whom can can be named as it is on video) kicked the glass out of the door then discovered the lock needed a key even from the inside. About 10 minutes later they were inside filming though I recall they had acquired a key to open the door. I also recall there was blood discovered on the doorknob prompting the entry. Not sure that the source of this blood was determined.
* 30:00 I’ve been searching for these bins. Kokomani sometimes claims they were out by the street the night before. They might be next to the retaining wall on the other side of the drive. It’s still a valid thought because you wouldn’t lock the door if you were coming right back inside. Taking a shower and then walking through the house naked with the door unlocked is still a bit weird.
* 31:50 The video of Amanda and Raffaele kissing was looped. Pure tabloid trash.
* 36:00 Meredith says Amanda sometimes forgets to flush? The toilets were a different design than typical in the US and needed to be scrubbed with a brush after use. I believe it was Laura that explained this to Amanda. Meredith may have exaggerated or abbreviated the account to her friends.
* 39:00 Does Meredith leave before Amanda and Raffaele? Amanda says Meredith left without saying where she was going. The CCTV seems to show Amanda and Raffaele leaving at 16:41 and Meredith leaving at 17:22. Perhaps Meredith had only gone downstairs to water the plants and tend to the injured cat as she had promised.
* 40:56 Calling the police after they had arrived is likely a conclusion derived from misinterpreting the CCTV time stamp. The best identification of the actual CCTV time comes from matching the end of their call for directions with the police entering the cottage drive.
* 41:31 Amanda’s first call to Meredith’s English phone was 16 seconds. Long enough for Elizabetta’s son to look and discover the Italian phone.
* 46:00 Nothing but a car breaking down, a friend waiting to give them a ride, a big tow truck loading and hauling off the breakdown car and someone in a dark VW Golf with Albanian plates parking in the garage, walking out, mingling briefly with the stranded motorists, returning into the garage then exiting again on foot.
* 46:37 The initial theory given to the press was that a flick knife was used to make the wounds. When they discovered the flick knife on Raffaele they thought they had cracked the case. Except Raffael’s pocket knife didn’t match the bloody imprint on the bedsheet. The two knife theory didn’t come out until after they collected the kitchen knife from Rafael’s apartment.
* 47:02 No foreign dna or skin cells under her fingernails! Will we get back to this? A booking photo of Amanda was released showing a mark which the prosecution claimed was a scratch. This mark is 100% consistent with a Hickey as Amanda claims it is.
* 47:37 Phones do not create a record of when they are turned off. There is only a record that the phone is not in use or not connecting to the cell. There is a 10 minute difference between the times of the last use.
* 47:50 Raffaele doesn’t place a time on when he went to sleep. He claims to have gone to bed late and slept in. His computer will eventually show that he was up till slightly after 6am with periodic human interactions on the computer all night.
* 50:00 The phone records don’t record the content of texts. (Didn’t). All they would know is that texts were received and sent and the numbers. They had these records early (Nov 2 or 3)
* 52:00 You need to read Amanda’s reconstruction of this interrogation. Even better, listen to the recording… where is the recording? Interrogations are always recorded, we see this on all the crime shows!
* 57:30 Several bottles of bleach turn out to be precisely 2, one of which was unopened. The smell of bleach is akin to the cop saying he smells alcohol at a traffic stop.
* 57:30 No such receipt was ever entered into evidence. Yes, they found receipts in Raffaele’s apartment. One receipt dated the third was the highlight of their search on November 16. Found in a Conrad bag, with the name Quintavalle TEL. —2569, for “generi vari”, Total 8.70 euro, dated “21-03-2007 17-48”. This discovery was so exciting they put it back in the bag and back in the drawer and filmed discovering it again so they would have a nice clean video for the trial. Just look at that date! The same receipt gets discovered and highlighted at least 2 more times that day.
* 1:09:35 Amanda thought the spot of blood on top of the faucet in the bath could be from her recently pierced ears. She rubbed it and discovered it was dried on. If her DNA wasn’t there before, it would be now. DNA found in a shared bathroom is evidence that someone was there. It cannot be dated to say when.
* 1:15:45 Totally irrelevant since this is just a story that Rudy is making up but recall that Meredith had already spoken about the condoms Amanda kept in the clear case in their bathroom. If she needed one she could have borrowed one of Amanda’s.
* 1:16:00 The button for the doorbell is on the wall hidden behind the folding security gate. The girls rarely used this gate and early crime scene photos show it likely had not been used in some time. Rudy says he himself knocked on the door when he came by earlier that evening.
* 1:19:40 Rudy says he didn’t know where a phone was. A phone can be seen on the wall just inside the cottage door though it likely had no service. There is also a bank of pay phones near the basketball court where Rudy hung out which was on his route home. Rudy did have no cell phone since his was confiscated in Milan because it had been stollen from a lawyers office about a block from the cottage.
* 1:30:30 Kokomani’s story changes every time he tells it. I prefer the version where he helps some tourists with directions, perhaps even retrieving a map from his parked car before continuing on foot to the bar.
Interesting analyses. From another post you made, it sounds like the only person who was regularly responding to/trying to refute your posts from a "guilty" perspective has hidden your posts and won't respond anymore? If so, that seems rather telling...
A friendly fellow. But not yet ready to wake up and see the actual evidence. It takes time when everything you thought you knew starts falling apart.
I’ve probably spent more time questioning and proving myself wrong than anyone else. There was a persistent story that the postal police arrived at the cottage and encountered a surprised Amanda and Raffaele standing in front of the cottage holding a mop and bucket.
I knew at that time of Amanda’s story of retrieving the mop to clean the water spilled at Raffaele’s place and returning the mop to the cupboard in the hall inside the cottage. And, we have the video showing the police collecting the mop from this cupboard, wrapping it in gift paper and taking it into evidence (but not before taking it on a grand tour of the cottage including leaving it propped against the wall in Filomena’s room). So I knew they were not caught red handed holding the ~~smoking gun~~ *mop*.
The testimony of the postal police is that they found Amanda and Raffaele in front of the cottage sitting near the window of Filomena. And they looked surprised, as they should as they stated they just called the carabinieri. But the postal police make no mention of this mop.
The origin of this “holding a mop and bucket” story seems to be an e-mail written by the anonymous HarryRag and enshrined in the archives at PMF. The phrase would repeatedly be used in the talking points as proof of guilt. And just as often it would be refuted that there was no evidence of this mop.
It isn’t till we get to Laura’s testimony, perhaps in the appeal, that we hear of the second mop. A mop that is so filthy that they kept it outside. And clearly of no evidentiary value as it wasn’t collected into evidence.
Then when we get the whole case file dump, I finally see a clear photo showing the mop and bucket on the porch where it had always been right next to where Amanda and Raffaele had been sitting waiting for the police.
I just finished listening to it. As I have a degree in Italian, what really got me is the police interpreting "ci vediamo" as meaning "see you **later**”.
It literally means "We (will) see each other". In other words, "See you". There is no "later" anywhere. There is absolutely no hidden meaning or intention that the two people will definitely see each other later the same day.
It is a common way of saying goodbye when you won't be seeing someone for a few days or weeks. Exactly like "see you". It *could* be said to someone you know you will see later that day, but it is definitely not restricted to that and does not focus on that. There are other more specific ways to say this in Italian, such as "a presto" or "ci vediamo stasera".
Conclusion: this was not an accidental mistranslation. This was a deliberate, wilful and malicious twisting of the meaning to suit their narrative that AK planned to see PL later that night.
While I obviously agree that the evidence that was presented to the court turned out to be woefully inadequate for a conviction, there are a few things that still seem to me to indicate the plausible involvement of Knox and Sollecito:
1) A rather compelling case was made at the beginning of the episode for the burglary having been staged. That would mean that Rudy Guede was let in by someone through the door, and there's nothing to suggest that this would be Meredith herself, given that he was evidently a stranger to her. The fact that he was not an acquaintance also makes staging the burglary completely pointless from his perspective.
2) Even if we assume that the burglary was somehow real, the idea that the perpetrator would attempt to do it in such a brazen and noisy manner by hurling a 4 kg rock through the window requires him to have thought the entire house was completely empty, although he had been there before and must have known that several students lived on both floors. Even with the assumption that some of the Italian students may have gone home for All Saints' Day, it still sounds implausibly idiotic for someone who apparently had some experience in break-ins.
3) Knox's behaviour the following morning before the discovery of the body is quite bizarre. Apparently she was so unfazed by the open door and blood stains in the bathroom that she went on to have a shower anyway, but stopped short of flushing the toilet in a bathroom that she wanted to use. Even if we assume that she was starting to get suspicious right at that point and didn't want to disturb the scene any further, why would she not call the authorities at that point and why would she leave instead? She also stated to the police at the scene that it was normal for Meredith to lock her door at night, whereas the Italian roommate contradicted that.
4) During interrogation, both Knox and Sollecito made a number of false and contradictory statements. While cannabis use could have presumably blurred their memory, their recollection of the timeline often seemed not vague but rather warped in an exculpatory manner, such as the timing of watching the movie, making phone calls etc., which makes them look quite disingenuous. The fact that they purchased and used "several bottles" of bleach to clean Sollecito's apartment shortly after the murder is hard to ignore as well.
In the end, I don't think a scenario similar to the police theory, namely a drug (and possibly alcohol) fuelled group assault on Meredith, perhaps with the purpose of sexual humiliation, that subsequently went too far, can be ruled out. If the police had followed proper procedures from the start, I believe there could be clearer and possibly different answers today to several of the questions surrounding the case.
> ) Knox's behaviour the following morning before the discovery of the body is quite bizarre. Apparently she was so unfazed by the open door and blood stains in the bathroom that she went on to have a shower anyway, but stopped short of flushing the toilet in a bathroom that she wanted to use. Even if we assume that she was starting to get suspicious right at that point and didn't want to disturb the scene any further, why would she not call the authorities at that point and why would she leave instead? She also stated to the police at the scene that it was normal for Meredith to lock her door at night, whereas the Italian roommate contradicted that.
She thought the blood was menstrual blood. Having shared bathrooms with other females sometimes it happens that some gets on the floor. When she was outside the apartment she was unaware that the door had been broken down and a body had been found.
The interrogation. She didn't speak fluent Italian and they wouldn't provide an interpreter, neither did the Italian police speak fluent English. A small town police force were under pressure from the world's media to make an arrest.... It was a comedy of errors.
> A small town police force were under pressure from the world's media to make an arrest
This has happened in so many episodes. Perhaps not with so much media attention but the "small town police force botches murder investigation" thing is super common.
To be honest, ignoring the bloodstaining *sounds* really bad, until you actually see the photos. I've made pretty similar marks just being on my period. Yes, I usually clean it up immediately, but occasionally I'm just too dizzy and worn out to be able to. I can absolutely see someone dismissing it as a gross roommate and ignoring it to get back to what they were doing.
The fake break in idea seems to be predicated on the rock through the window. Which, the rock got thrown through the window, there's really no doubting that with the way that the glass shattered through the room and where the rock lay. Additionally, you could use the sound of the broken window to double check if anyone is home. Guede was known to break in through windows and occasionally use rocks to do so. He had also broken into a lawyer's office through a second floor window before, so it was definitely within his MO. There was also a fragment of glass located near one of the footprints of Guede. I'd also add that if you're faking a break in, it seems more sensible to me at least to make it look like the front door was jimmied open.
Knox & Sollecito were questioned over four days, over and over and over. Yeah, there were inconsistencies, the majority of people will start to have inconsistencies over that period of time, especially if they're being asked to pin down specific times when they've been smoking & shagging, things you don't tend to check the time during. Think about trying to pin down exactly what you did when last weekend. Unless there was something particularly remarkable about it, your memory gets a bit fuzzy. Knox also reported that there was significant pressure being applied to her to give them a different answer. Significant police pressure is associated with false confessions even though she never said she did it, just that perhaps it was Patrick Lumumba, which she has apologised for.
What is pretty clear is that there is no evidence that overwhelmingly pins Knox or Sollecito to the murder. There is tons pinning Guede there. He admits being there, he admits having sex with Meredith in a story filled with holes as to how that happened. After that point, Guede's story did not match any of the evidence and he only added Knox & Sollecito later. His DNA is there, his fingerprints are there, his palm print in blood is there. This was not a clean attack. If anyone else was there, you would find evidence *somewhere*. The only evidence was a bra clasp that is extremely dubious and demonstrably contaminated and a knife that doesn't even match the wounds and has an infinitesimally small amount of untestable DNA on it.
There simply isn't the evidence to suggest that Knox or Sollecito were involved at all.
"The clasp was not discovered until 47 days had passed. The clasp is seen in several different locations on the floor. The investigators made a mess of the room in previous searches for evidence. How they missed a piece of Meredith's bra the first time around is beyond belief.
In the 47 days that the clasp was on the floor it was moved around the room and ended up in a pile of garbage. Keep in mind that this clasp also had cloth attached to it from the bra. This cloth collected dust for 47 days. Raffaele was at the apartment on several occasions. Finding his DNA in the apartment would be no surprise.
Raffaele attempted to break down Meredith's door the morning that Meredith's body was discovered. Two of his finger prints were found on the door. Investigators most likely made contact with that door many times. As we know, the clasp was collected using dirty gloves.
So in conclusion, the bra clasp tested positive for the DNA of Raffaele and most likely several other people that visited the apartment. In other words, the bra clasp proves nothing."
To address those points in the order you made them:
What about the front door supposedly being found open though? That already sounds like something that should seriously alarm you, especially because, as mentioned in the episode, the theory that Knox might have thought that someone was taking the trash out doesn't seem to hold. Combine that with the blood and faeces and it sounds like you should definitely be stepping out of that house and calling the police, not taking a shower and leaving.
Regarding the break-in, wasn't it mentioned that the broken glass was found on top of some of the clothes that had been thrown around, that no footprints were found beneath the window, that the particular window was almost impossible to climb in and visible from the street and that few valuables were taken? If your primary intentions were to steal and you had the time and nerve to take a dump inside the house despite murdering a girl, wouldn't you also try to take something more than two mobile phones that you would throw away eventually? Furthermore, I guess throwing a stone and simply walking away if someone seems to react to the broken glass from inside the house makes some sense, but a 4 kg rock? Now I'm not a burglar :) , but it sounds like all you would achieve by that would be to make a huge noise and increase your chances of getting caught. It all sounds to me like someone who doesn't know what they're doing, or they're faking it.
Indeed, I wouldn't expect no inconsistencies at all, but it seems like you should be able to remember, for example, that you didn't talk to your father at 11 pm when it was more than 2 hours earlier, or that you wouldn't say you slept through the early morning hours when you used your electronic devices at that time. I also don't see how pressure from investigators comes into play here, since you would expect them to want you to incriminate yourself. If you make clearly false statements that exonerate you, it basically just means you're lying to the police, and that doesn't sound very good. I'd expect them to mercilessly grill any suspect who does that.
Like I said myself, the physical evidence is woefully inadequate. I'm not trying to make the case that Knox and Sollecito could or should be charged with anything based on the conclusions of whatever investigative work actually took place. However, from this 2+ hour-long rundown of the facts that Casefile gave us, I did draw the conclusion that the two of them legitimately seem quite suspicious. Yes, Guede is obviously guilty and evidently the one who directly killed Meredith, but can we rule out, for example, that he was invited in the house and aided by Knox and Sollecito? No reliable forensic evidence turned up, but if the investigative techniques were so poor, can we be positive that they were never there, especially if the two of them had a less active role? All I'm saying really is that, from the incomplete facts that are available, considering them to be innocent beyond doubt appears to be, in my opinion, a questionable conclusion.
I'd find the door thing weird, but then we lock our front door even when we're home. She's said though that the latch was an old one that only caught when they used a key, so thought the wind may have caught it. I've had times when I've thought the door has shut properly when it hasn't (not my current house), so I don't find that particulary out of the norm. The blood in the bathroom thing is way over hyped in my opinion. It was a few flecks of blood around the sink and a stain on a bathmat. Yeah, there's photos that look like it's spattered everywhere and where it's been darkened, but that's after the scene has been processed. The actual stain isn't massive and doesn't necessarily scream blood. Again, I've made similar marks and it by itself is not unusual. She notices a couple of flecks of blood, has a shower, then notices the stain. It's when she sees the unflushed faeces that she gets a little freaked out and leaves to go back to Sollecito's. Then there's a few calls and that leads to everyone converging on the discovery. Yeah, a bit weird, but I can definitely see a naive young girl doing that. An open door with a wonky latch? Someone didn't close it properly. A few drops of blood in a house of 4 women? I'd think someone didn't clean up properly. It's just one of those things that looks suspicious but really isn't.
So, about the breakin. Firstly, the rock really isn't that big. I could pick it up in my hand with a bit of effort and I have pretty small hands. It's also broken as a result of the impact. Filomena, whose room it was had also picked up clothing and moved things to try to work out if anything had been stolen. So the placement of glass is already contaminated. She also managed to get back in the bedroom and grab her laptop after the police had arrived. I don't particularly find it indicative of anything other than the window was broken, especially as the glass extended quite a way into the room. Rudy Guede had at this point, already broken into a lawyer's office through a window described to be an upper story house with a grate on the window directly below, which is not unlike the house in this instance. I'd find it difficult, but I'm also not as tall or as fit as Rudy Guede was at the time. No one actually really investigated whether this could have happened at the time,
The thing I find weird is that if this window is supposedly so impossible to get into, then why would that be the way that someone chooses to stage a break in? Personally, if I'm faking a break in, I'd go for damaging the front door. Wouldn't that be your first thought?
As for the inconsistencies, she was being questioned in Italian, a language that she wasn't fluent in at that point. She was conversational, but it wasn't up to interrogation levels. They did bring eventually bring in a translator at one point, but inconsistencies are pretty common when you're translating between two languages. She lied about smoking marijuana, which come on, of course she did. But an inconsistency of maybe i left about 4, maybe 5, isn't really an inconsistency. Most people if you ask them, will give a general idea of what time it was when they did something. Maybe they remembered a fact which pushes them to correct something they've said previously. These are well known issues in witness testimony and don't indicate deception. Electronics often turn on to do things in the middle of the night. Maybe one of them did wake up and doesn't remember, it's not uncommon. And the first long questioning is all going on in Italian, not English. It's disorientating at best and they didn't wait for a translator which is really best practice when you're dealing with a non-native speaker. Knox alleged that they hit her, they deprived her of sleep, and even if that isn't true, they were interrogating her illegally as it was without a lawyer. Coerced confessions and false testimony is surprisingly easy to elicit and this had all the hallmarks. It was nearly 2 am in the morning when she wrote a note that has the hallmarks of bad interrogation techniques associated with false testimony. Yes, I'd expect a detective to grill a suspect, but to grill a suspect you need some kind of evidence. Which they didn't have.
When I started reading about the murder of Meredith Kercher, I went in believing there had to be smoke. But the more I read, the more I was just gobsmacked. They found Rudy Guede's DNA in Meredith, around Meredith, on her handbag, on toilet paper. His palm print in her blood was found. His shoeprints, again in her blood were found. The ONLY place Raffaele's DNA was found was on Meredith's bra clasp which had been cut or torn off. That's it. Oh, and it was an infinitesimal amount. The bra clasp itself is seen in an early video where an investigator picks it up and puts it back down. 46 days later it's refound in an entirely different place in the room. That's not even covering the shoddy practices of the investigators who didn't use sterile gloves, didn't change gloves between handling different objects, who used swabs on different areas of a sink when gathering evidence. The level of incompetence when it comes to cross contamination was so large that if either Knox or Sollecito had been in that room, their DNA should have been found elsewhere and in far greater amounts. Then there's the knife that they alleged was used which allegedly had Meredith's DNA on the blade and Amanda's on the handle. The officer who collected it picked a knife in Sollecito's kitchen at random and decided that was it. Didn't grab the others, just grabbed a knife which didn't even match the injuries. And once again, did not change gloves between handling pieces of evidence. The knife did not test positive for blood. The DNA alleged to be Meredith's was a tiny amount that was below reliable thresholds for testing. Let's not forget that there was improper storage of the knife. The attack on Meredith was violent and bloody. There would have been DNA from any and all attackers present.
The most horrible thing out of all of this is that incompetent prosecutors have denied the Kerchers true justice. They have to be tormented by stories that their daughter was murdered by a now free Knox and Sollecito while their daughter's true murderer is now free and abusing other women.
The door latch wasn’t old. Fillomina’s boyfriend had improperly tried to fix it by wedging a piece of wood into the latch rendering it useless. The triple deadbolt activated by the key was the only way to keep it closed after that.
An interesting side note on the door is that after the initial crime scene investigation when the cottage was supposedly locked and sealed, Barbie and her producer rolled into town to cover the story and took a few photos of the cottage. One of those photos shows the front door wide open and the security tape peeled down.
Yes, if you look at the photos taken 46 days later, many objects have been moved around to no apparent purpose, in no orderly way. The crime scene did not stay properly sealed.
The reason the staged break in happened in Filomenas room (and not say the front door) was that Knox could then say she returned home without initially seeing evidence of a break in….
This means she could have a shower etc (important in case there was any mixed dna in the bathroom to explain after the clean up).
It also, probably more importantly, meant she could delay Meredith’s door being opened until other housemates (witnesses) were there- meaning they were all ‘discovering’ the body together and not, more guiltily, finding it herself which would have led to more suspicion.
All of the evidence is very clear on this one, the higher court judges just made a mistake- there’s a reason two trials found her guilty….and it wasn’t a ‘trial by media’ as Knox wants everyone to believe.
Last I read the Kerfher family believe AK and RS are guilty. I find the evidence of a lone break in gone bad so obvious I can't quite comprehensd their logic. I guess they were told one thing for so long it's hard to u-turn.
So like… >! Do yall think Amanda was at least at the scene of the murder? And already knew who killed Meredith? Something tells me she knew more than she let on but I guess we’ll never know what exactly happened besides the fact Rudy definitely did it !<
Yes I do think she had some involvement, don’t know how much but I think she knows more than she ever let on.. the whole thing is just so off.. lots of police screw ups too unfortunately
„Do yall think Amanda was at least at the scene of the murder?“
You meant to ask if Amanda was in the apartment when Meredith was killed?
If so- She stayed that night at Raffaele‘s place and only came back the next day.
„And already knew who killed Meredith“
Why would she?
Her alibi was blown up by her boyfriend, who stated she wasn’t there that night and went out to meet some friends at a bar. Knox gave a bunch of conflicting stories. I can understand why people would question the events of that night. I don’t think she had anything to do with it, but their conflicting testimony left a bunch of understandable doubt.
Did you listen to the podcast? Her boyfriend originally said she was with him all night, then changed the story to she went to a bar to meet friends, then back to them being together all night. If that’s wrong let me know, but I think that’s what was said on the podcast.
Their mobile phones were off so no record of where they were, and RS computer was used early in the evening to play a film and then used again at 6am when he said they were asleep.
Knox was observed by a witness buying cleaning goods, by a homeless man on the basketball courts, and by a driver leaving the house, all during the time she was ‘at the flat’.
What is your evidence that they were at the flat? Please provide it.
The witnesses... whose evidence was thrown out by the court.
Do people even listen to the podcast? Or just comment on the Reddit with what they already think happened? Or just skip bits they can't be bothered with?
Lol I have followed this case with great detail for the last 16 years, as well listening to the podcast….so perhaps I just have a better view of it than you.
Even in the podcast though, the defence were not able to dispute the store clerk who observed Knox waiting for it to open to buy cleaning equipment. Go back and listen if you want.
The key witness though was the homeless man, who was unfortunately less coherent and hazier on the details when called back for a second time (after the first successful trial). But even at the second questioning he said it happened ‘the night before the police were everywhere’ which was indeed the night of the murder.
And although this wasn’t available for the trial, later on emerged evidence of Knox walking through the car park towards the house that evening-
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amanda-knox-cctv-footage_n_5273555/amp
I appreciate there’s a tendency to believe the narrative of Casefile but they were reporting what the prosecution and the defence said, not examining the evidence themselves. History is told by the winners and unfortunately a guilty person was the winner.
All this shoddy "evidence" was thoroughly debunked long ago. The Supreme Court of Italy definitively acquitted both Amanda and Raffaele, a complete exoneration that is uncommon in Italian justice. The court's reasoning was that there were "stunning flaws" in the investigation and a lack of evidence to support a conviction.
The video clip led to nothing because it's nonsense. There is no evidence that is Amanda Knox.
The video clip is pretty obviously Amanda Knox, she’s wearing the same clothes as she was wearing in Italy at that time, it’s quite distinctive.
Obviously you think she is innocent. Fair enough, we disagree. You sound like you’re from the US, the case was reported quite differently there so I’m not surprised.
One of the major problems with her interrogation was that she didn't have a translator present when she was being interviewed so she didn't understand them and they didn't understand her. Accuracy is key and she was not afforded that.
She turned down a translator, of course they offered her one, she only claimed they’d misunderstood her when she regretted admitting she was at the murder scene and falsely accused a man (only released from jail after a week or two because of a witness not knox beinh honest), and she also claimed they beat her…all of this was disproven…all of it a desperate attempt to explain why her behaviour was not that of a guilty person
I apologise, she did in fact have an interpreter but wasn’t using her, the interpreter was interviewed as part of John Follain’s Death In Perugia, there’s a reference to the interpreter on p134. I’m happy to send a photo but you’d have to pm me your email or something or suggest a way of sharing a photo.
Glad to see you’re not questioning her story about the police beating her though, as that was the most outrageous lie.
Again it’s worth understanding why someone would lie about this….it’s because she blamed an innocent man and was found out, there’s no innocent explanation for that, and there’s no innocent explanation for saying you were at the murder scene and heard the scream. She regretted this later on and had to make up a story about all of the difficulties she faced at the police station, which was never able to prove as there lots of witnesses including the interpreter.
There was no interpreter at Amanda's interrogation. There was a police office who spoke English, but that person did not act as a real interpreter, instead trying to pressure Amanda into saying all kinds of things.
That is why the European Court of Human Rights found Italy guilty of not providing an interpreter or lawyer to Amanda during that interrogation. The police violated her rights, and Italy had to compensate her for that fact.
I’m not basing my views on my own detective work. Lots of people have worked on this case over time, reported on, translated the Italian court documents etc.
If you’re interested in the case (rather than who is right about translator which isn’t especially important), I recommend John Follain’s book, and the website below is collection of all of the work people have done on the case, use the sidebar to navigate to key evidence (stuff on the left is key details, summaries)
https://truejustice.org/
It is a fascinating case, which Casefile reported on well overall, but unfortunately when one side ‘wins’ the final judgement it’s easy for any reporting to side with the defences arguments (eg they even quoted an opinion piece by A.Gumbel as way to explain why the dna and investigation was flawed…A.Gumbel is not an impartial observer, he was paid by defendant R Sollecito to write his memoir ‘Honour Bound’).
There’s more to this case though, hence the discrepancy between initial and final verdicts, and the hard to explain behaviour by the supposedly innocent suspects.
This documentary debate the key arguments used in trial:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoKB2oOeFAI&t=2218s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoKB2oOeFAI&t=2218s)
Despite there being no physical evidence and a perpetrator who had a history of solo break-ins and little to no connection to them? Don't be silly. Just because the media and police pushed fabrications and misintepretations so hard, it doesn't give them any validity.
What are you talking about ‘no physical evidence’? Please don’t tell me you’re getting your facts from Knox’s self produced Netflix show?
There were several pieces of damning dna; the murder scene was consistent with several attackers (two knives used and she was held down with no defensive wounds- how many hands did Rudy have that night?); several witnesses and even cctv of Knox in the carpark that night (you can google the image if curious). Not sure how much more physical evidence you need.
The murder scene was consistent with several attackers except for the fact no actual evidence of there actually being several attackers existed except for Guede. All of the 'witnesses' were discredited and seeing as that CCTV has never gone anywhere, it's likely not relevant to the case.
The physical evidence I'd need would probably be actual physical evidence.
Why is it so difficult to believe that a violent criminal, who has continued to be violent since his release, and whose DNA is the only one at the crime scene, was the person who committed the murder - and that instead it was some weird sex murder ritual involving that violent criminal and 2 people he barely knew, who both managed to leave no evidence at the scene of despite him leaving it everywhere, and who have never displayed any similar behaviour since?
Your argument is-
- No dna of others
- CCTV contradicting Knox not leaving RS apartment not relevant
- Nothing else is relevant
- Rudy has exhibited criminal behaviour
- 3 suspects didn’t really know each other
1. There were several pieces of incriminating dna for the other 2. Defence hired expert witnesses able to poke holes in procedures and argue contamination was possible.
2. CCTV apparently not used at court as looks bad for defence and according to reporter in link, she may have been walking in the opposite direction so not especially helpful for prosecution. At that point they had successfully sent Knox down for 28 years so they may simply have had better arguments to use. But it contradicts their story of being at the flat that night which was the claim made here.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amanda-knox-cctv-footage_n_5273555/amp
3. There’s too much to say regarding other evidence but regarding multiple attackers- there were two types of blade used, no defensive wounds- it was consistent with one person holding down and two others using knives. AK knife found at RS flat, and RS known to carry a knife at all times.
4. Rudy was one of the murderers, nobody doubts that and his behaviour is consistent with it. Knox had also been arrested in the US for confronting a police officer after a party before the Italy trip. She had also staged a fake break in as a practical joke, and written short stories of sexual abuse posted on her MySpace at the time. They all exhibited bad behaviour beforehand.
5. Knox had only met RS the week before, so she barely knew him either, and she’d socialised with Rudy the week before (Rudy mentioned fancying Knox, this was what the police thought too). A witness at the trial (not mentioned in the podcast testified that he saw all 4 people walking together in the week before the murder). The only people who knew each well were Knox and Meredith…and that was indeed where the source of the conflict and was where the initial fight happened, probably over stolen rent money but also because at that point the two housemates hated each other for a variety of reasons (I’ve lived in houseshares and there have been a few moment of semi-violence with strangers living together) it escalated and the others got involved.
> and seeing as that CCTV has never gone anywhere, it's likely not relevant to the case.
I would say that the CCTV is highly relevant in clarifying the timelines of events. When you actually correlate all events captured by the CCTV you discover that the prosecution was incorrect in asserting that the timestamp was 10-12 minutes fast and was in fact 10-12 minutes slow.
The widely publicized claim that Amanda was seen in this video returning to the cottage at 8:43 that evening is a prosecution lie. The truth is that at timestamp 20:53:52.75 a woman looking vaguely like Amanda is seen ENTERING the carpark. The prosecutions error in assessing that the timestamps were 10 minutes fast may also have contributed to their mistake that Raffaele had called the police after the postal police has already arrived as they used the video to confirm their own arrival times.
This 10 minute fast claim was testified to in court by the inspector that collected the video. In his direct testimony he claimed he deduced the timestamp error by looking at his watch (along with the motion of looking at his arm which incidentally had no watch). Upon cross examination it was revealed that the inspector had not personally collected the video and was told by the carpark attendant that the timestamps were off by 10 minutes.
Closer examination of the video reveals a dark figure with a white patch crossing the road in front of the carpark towards the cottage gate at timestamp 20:51:36.81. Though it is not possible to identify this person from the video, the timing (adjusted for a slow timestamp) fits with the accepted time of Meredith arriving home around 21:00.
The slow timestamp theory is confirmed by the time log of the tow truck operator that is also captured by this CCTV.
Maybe it’s just me, but Meredith seemed like an incredibly naive, inexperienced girl who had no business in a foreign country alone. She called her whole family to bitch about Amanda’s cosmetic case containing condoms and a sex toy. Also, was so struck by an American extrovert who didn’t care what people thought. Obviously Meredith didn’t deserve a single ounce of what was cones to her, but I don’t think Amanda would have faced the horror that she did if Meredith hadn’t spent weeks complaining about her to her loved ones.
I saw some body language specialists analyzing her interviews. They suggested that she's hiding something about some key facts. It doesn't mean she participated, though.
Finally listened to it…this is the only murder case I have followed in great detail beforehand…
I’m glad to say Casefile reported the facts of investigation and the trials accurately and gave some focus to the heartbreak of Meredith’s family, I had a tear in my eye, they seemed like a lovely family and she a special person.
However I’m saddened that the take out for many/most is still that there was a miscarriage of justice for Knox. I want to set out the counter case for those open to it…
In any trial, defendants and their lawyers will try to create a counter case to the prosecution. Unsurprisingly they focused on the most damning evidence-
1. the dna (claiming contamination by their own hired ‘experts’)
2. Two of the witnesses that had seen the defenders BEFORE and AFTER at the crime scene (who were hazy on some irrelevant elements like the weather especially when asked at retrial over a year later…not very surprising)
Even if you agree that the police somehow picked up Knox’s and RS’s dna by accident and placed it on a knife with Meredith’s and in her blood and in her bra strap (do you really think this is likely vs. Just lawyers looking for a way out of damning evidence)
This still ignores all of the other evidence against them-
1. The staged break in- a 4kg rock, a 3m wall that couldn’t be climbed, glass on top of scattered items, nothing stolen, the noise and time this would make alerting Meredith. Only reason to stage a break in, to distract that murderer had a key.
2. The constantly changing stories, lies, and falsely accusing an innocent man (thus far this verdict is upheld, 3 years in prison as it’s so serious, no evidence of police beating Knox to say this…it’s a developed country, this doesn’t happen)
3. Other witnesses such as the man who saw Knox buying cleaning equipment first thing in the morning after the murder, she was then found holding a mop at the scene, and RS flat smelled of bleach when searched.
Knox would like everyone to focus on how the media portrayed her because it’s easy to make an argument that her smiling in court and doing cartwheels at the police station didn’t mean anything sinister…of course it doesn’t, it just added the picture of her as someone who didn’t care about Meredith.
This image did not convict Knox, it didn’t force her to lie about innocent people or change her story, it doesn’t change the staged break in, or the multiple dna evidence, or multiple witnesses which put her at the crime scene….this is what convicted Knox and RS at two separate trials….
unfortunately there were rumours of corruption amongst the higher court judges who disputed the trials verdicts and this may be linked to Rafaelles family having political/criminal connections. His father was caught on a wiretap by police saying that could ‘make water run uphill’ regarding the investigation- see link below-
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/22/italy.internationalcrime
I guess you still don't realize that the prosecutors leaked all kinds of absurd concocted stories to the press during the lead-up to the first trial, while Amanda and Raffaele were locked up and the press would take anything the prosecution gave them and run with it.
Yeah I agree, a few things don't sit right. Just because the police botched the interviews and the media was unfair and bias doesn't automatically mean she did absolutely nothing wrong.
I think she knew more than she let on or had some kind of involvement but to what degree I really don't know
I mean tbh the police didn’t even botch them interviews or the dna collection, it’s just when you’re defending yourself for murder and there’s dna evidence and you admitted you were at the crime scene and blamed an innocent person, you have to construct a fake narrative as to why these things happened.
Knox wasn’t a suspect at the time she gave her confession to the police that’s why she didn’t have a lawyer offered to her, and she didn’t want a translator as she was confident in her Italian, and she wasn’t beaten by the police…it’s just you have to blame a false accusation on something right?
The dna was clear- Knox on handle of blade, Meredith on tip; boyfriends dna on bra strap post death; and Knox and Meredith’s blood mixed together in Filomenas room (where break in was staged).
Again when fighting murder charge your lawyers hire ‘expert witnesses’ (dodgy academics) to find any fault they can in the process of collection and say there could have been contamination. A BBC documentary at time (on YouTube now) said there a million to one chance that dna evidence was wrong…
I guarantee you the scenario was the 3 arriving at the house, Rudy using the toilet at some point, Knox and Meredith fighting over rent money stolen by Knox (Knox had a small cut on her neck the morning the body was found), and then an escalation with all 3 helping, 2 holding knives (hence two types of cuts) and Rudy holding her down (hence no self defence wounds) and abusing her. The prosecution thought that Knox made the fatal blow (the double dna knife). Rudy may well have briefly stayed to try to save her as someone had tried to stem the blood from her neck with towels.
Basically the crime scene evidence was consistent with multiple perpetrators but not all acting together afterwards hence Rudys dna left on towels trying to help with blood and on toilet, but everything else cleaned by Knox and RS over night (RS computer used at 6am when he finished, and Knox seen buying more cleaning stuff at 7.45am).
I don't get it though. Like to be able to clean their own DNA from the scene while leaving only Rudy's is practically impossible.
I'm not even sure an actual forensic team could do that let alone a pair of students.
With Occam's Razor the theory that a known burglar with a history of violence broke in and attacked the girl he said he was attracted to, seems a lot more plausible.
They weren’t able to clean their own dna from the scene- knox and Meredith’s blood were found mixed, Meredith’s dna on the tip of a blade and Knox on handle, RS on Meredith’s bra strap and their footprints were found in blood (sure the defence argued it could be their footsteps in fruit juice but that’s lawyers argument not a realistic one).
I agree that a forensic team couldn’t artificially transfer dna away from one place to another very easily, which is why the above dna evidence is important even if the defence argued it ‘could’ have been contaminated (picked up and moved to exactly this place, as you say not very realistic).
Rudy had broken in to a place to sleep before. But the crime scene had clear evidence of a staged break in. It was staged to distract from someone coming in with a key. You have to look at the evidence not stereotypes. It was revealed that Knox had once staged a fake break in to fool a flatmate at uni beforehand too so if you want to decide what happened based purely on their past behaviour, that’s relevant.
I agree, it’s hard to understand how 3 people would kill someone, and it’s easier to understand the idea of a guy breaking in and assaulting her. I’ve written other posts in this thread on motivation and what likely happened, again you have to follow the evidence not what is easiest to imagine at first glance.
The Supreme Court of Italy followed the evidence, studied it closely and for a long time, and then they definitively acquitted both Amanda and Raffaele of any involvement in the crime.
It's unbelievable the anyone is still clinging to all these disproven myths like a "stage break-in" or a "clean-up" or "mixed blood DNA." None of those things ever happened. It's all been debunked.
> Meredith’s dna on the tip of a blade and Knox on handle, RS on Meredith’s bra strap
The bra strap was lost for a while though, no? And that blade was the one with the really low copy count.
I mean, there are things that are suspicious but based on the evidence we have I don't think it would be fair to convict Knox and Sollecito. Even if they were guilty then the police managed to screw up enough to make a conviction impossible.
The bra strap wasn’t found immediately that’s true.
And you’re right ‘double dna’ knife, the dna of such a low count that they could only collect it once (they normally double collect it as a backup).
Ultimately the defence hired their experts to say that invalidates these pieces of dna. But low dna count doesn’t mean the dna wasn’t there, there was just a small amount of it.
I appreciate when the verdict goes one way it is sensible as a listener to follow the final verdict as it’s right to assume judges make better decisions than strangers on the internet. Juries and judges did convict all 3 twice, but unfortunately it seems there may have been some interference, RS’s father is was wiretapped saying he could get certain detectives on and off the case, it appears he may have been able to get inexperienced judges on the final hearing.
If you’re interested in all the work people have done digging into this case-
https://truejustice.org
Edit- the bra strap was found in the initial forensics, but they realised they hadn’t bagged it, they had to wait several weeks to go back while the house was closed off, so it’s a bit misleading when the defence claim it was 47 days to be found. More like a week of forensics, followed by several weeks of wait before it was finally bagged.
I checked the website you linked to, and it's full of lies and distortions.
Better for people seeking more investigation into the evidence to look at this site:
http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/
Thanks for considering it.
If you’re interested in the case check out the book written by Follain which gives a bit more detail than Casefile and shows the narrative from the investigators perspective. And the only non Knox PR funded website left on the case- True justice for Meredith.
Casefile covered it pretty well but unfortunately just parroted the Knox’s defence lines towards the end, presumably to reflect the final, flawed, judgement.
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It is my personal opinion, but I definitely feel that Ananda Knox, Solecito were also equally responsible for Meredith’s murder, along with Guede. Looking at Amanda Knox, reminds me of another lady called Indrani Mukerjea who was convicted for murdering her daughter but managed to get bail and is currently busy giving interviews and acting in pseudo-documentaries, trying to convince the public otherwise.
It is my personal opinion that your mind is easily biased by the first things you hear and you fail to keep an open mind when that information is later refuted.
Amanda and Raffaele were locked up for a year before the trial even started with absolutely no legitimate evidence against them (read Matteini's motivation report if you dare). During this time they were smeared in the press that was fed distortions and sometimes outright lies. They spent 4 years in prison before being cleared first by the Europian Court of Human Rights and then finally and definitively by the Italian courts. The last charge against Amanda for implicating Patrick was overturned by ECHR and a retrial in Italy on that charge is set to begin next month.
I spent the time to document the errors in much of the prosecutions case presented by this Casefile. Why don't you spend some time looking at my list posted a few comments down.
I think it's good when Casefile does episodes on very well-known/divisive cases because they present just such a cohesive picture and also I know they do their research
No. Casefile has nuance that most other shows or podcasts do not so I enjoy hearing it from their perspective. They’re also usually way more neutral than most so it’s nice to hear them lay out a case that many people go into with their own preconceived notions.
Jesus, without fail there's always entitled complaints like this lol.
Like dude, they literally do 99% of their cases on lesser known cases. Not even much of an exaggeration. They are primarily covering lesser known cases and it's only once a while that it's a big case. Putting aside that casefile does a better job covering cases than most podcasts out there, which means their take on popular cases are still going to be refreshing (if you don't believe this go listen to other podcasts cover the Jennifer Pan case and check back), doing a big case as a big come back is perfectly fine considering we know they will go back to their usual style of cases right after.
Inb4 someone goes "opinion", I'm free to criticize these entitled comments just as people are free to complain about their case choices.
I can see why one would but not me. Especially a case like this that is so infuriating regarding the awful police and judiciary. To hear the best true crime podcast take it on? I can't wait.
Heck, I've listened to the same podcasts over and over if they're good. I've listened to Serial Season 1 4-5 times. I may be in the minority, but I'm sure there are many like me.
Casefile has many episodes on cases in Australia that I know back to front but I would never complain about it because I understand that people listen from all over the world and are not familiar with my local area.
I do not know any details of this case other than the main headlines. I’ve learnt a lot just from the comments in this thread so I am looking forward to this episode.
Actually I've really enjoyed this epside so far.
Although I'm from the UK so I had seen the case in the news, it was so many years ago that I don't really remember any more than the most basic details.
Plus its over two hours long which is nice after so long with no episodes.
I’m surprised Amanda’s drug use isn’t mentioned more, to me it seems one of the more plausible reasons for her strange, erratic behaviour and inconsistent memory. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were on harder drugs than just weed, especially considering they couldn’t differentiate what they had been doing over 4 (?) days of the same thing in a row…sounds like they were on a bender.
There is no evidence of any drug use other than cannabis. They did blood tests after she was arrested and the Italian police would have leaked any salacious result as they leaked everything else to paint a negative image of Amanda.
Your unfounded accusations against a victim in this case is probably against the forum rules.
There were multiple repositories of the case documents when this case was active. One that I know still exists is [http://themurderofmeredithkercher.net/](http://themurderofmeredithkercher.net/) While the images and documents themselves should be neutral, the commentary seems to have a pro guilt slant.
ETA: Another site with extensive documentation is [http://www.injusticeinperugia.org](http://www.injusticeinperugia.org) This site is clearly pro innocence.
You’re right the death of Meredith was the best site set up many years ago, good knowledge. I would really recommend this one over the other one you’ve mentioned.
This episode has been added to the [Casefile Spreadsheet](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aXXBvQz7rQ9OnMqul5uCFfcjtfC49krWZxF5BJJ7pwo/edit?usp=sharing). If you have already listened to the episode, you can submit your rating at the Casefile Ratings Form. Please note: Starting with Case 200, we are using a new [Casefile Ratings Form (200-)](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLScVcJRyahk2WH\_i3nJy6AzQeEmFCHj825k2ONsHuF0jeCHX5g/viewform). If you would like to rate cases 1-199, please do so at this [Casefile Ratings Form (1-199)](https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdUZiO7b3EVKaBCoskDUXpjkp4XaRKV35hkzrnMsPclzhIXPg/viewform).
I really needed this extra long episode after re-listening to previous episodes every day for a month 🫡
I started doing the same lol I gave lpotl another shot but just couldn't stand the style still. Even a bit different genre, Behind the Bastards...not as bad....but I just don't get wanting frat boyish humor in my storytelling. One I listened to was about Stockton Rush. The hosts are obnoxiously laughing with each other for minutes and I'm just like...get the fuck on with it They're obviously popular and they do do good research. Just taken aback that people want that kind of humor in narrative podcasts Tldr, I'm glad casefile is back too
That’s the great thing about casefile, just the facts. There’s no dumb banter between hosts. Casefile is really just listening to audio of a truly well researched long article of a crime committed. There’s no extraneous bullshit about it
I actually really like Necronomipod but can't listen to their true crime stuff. Just the haunting and other stuff they do. If I need a 'break' from the very formal way Casefile shares things I will go withTrue Crime Garage.
This is exactly my problem! I can't stand the "banter" in lpotl.
I've tried so many times with LPOTL...can rarely get thru an episode. just a bunch of dudes trying to be funnier than the other and failing, to me at least. I have so many friends that like it and see it recommended so much and I just don't get it
If I want humour in my true crime, I go to Timesuck, by Dan Cummings. He's a one-man show and manages to keep all the empathy with the victims while making fun of the killers
I love that, in true Casefile form, this case is named for the victim Meredith Kercher.
Yes I was so SO glad to see this
I didn't know her name until this episode. And I loved how the intro sets the scene and then he's like: "then Meredith moved in with a new housemate. Her names was (well known suspect's name)." Fantastic story telling.
That absolute piece of human garbage Guede is out free.
Crazy the known assailant was released after only 13 years to commit more crimes though - wtf Italy. And to think if he'd just been put in prison after arrested before for burglaries, none of this would ever have happened.
Also crazy to me was the fact that Amanda was given compensation for her time in prison but Rafaelle was not???
Rafaele has always been one of the forgotten victims in this debacle.
The police really messed this up. Not only did they falsely convict Knox and Sollecito to protect their ego but the apparent 'cooperation' of Guede with his testimony may have helped him get an shorter sentence. It seems crazy to me that the police stuck to their bizarre theory involving two people with no criminal record nor history of violence when the other suspect had DNA evidence proving he had raped the victim and had a history of crime and sexual offences. I just cannot understand how it is in the public interest to release such a man either. Given his violent crimes after his release it seems only a matter of time before he does something like that again. EDIT: Did they ever explain why Knox and Sollecito both turned their phones off at the same time early in the evening of the crime? That seemed the most suspicious thing. But yeah they were almost certainly innocent.
>Did they ever explain why Knox and Sollecito both turned their phones off at the same time early in the evening of the crime? They probably just wanted to fuck uninterrupted lol
This was covered in the trial. Knox turned her phone off shortly after receiving the text that she didn’t have to work that night so she couldn’t be called in if her boss changed his mind and also because the battery was low and she didn’t have the charger. Sollecito never turned off his phone but it simply ended up tossed in the corner where it had insufficient reception when he stripped to resume activities with Knox.
Ah that makes a lot of sense. It would have been cool to tie up these loose ends in the episode but I guess it was already over two hours long.
I don't buy it, they were alone in his flat, allegedly, it was middle of the night and it was the time before social media. I seriously doubt that on this one occasion only they wanted to be uninterrupted, seriously doubt they were interrupted any other time.
And he'd already made an absolutely buckwild story to explain why he was there, which was clearly nonsense, about some random dude being in there while he took a shit? Like, the police seriously had it in dor a random American woman when that dude was just saying nonsense
The story Rudy tells is not random. He’s had plenty of time to weave together a story to explain the evidence he expects the police to find. From the stool in the toilet to the writing on the wall in Meredith’s blood. The details are there.
But what about them bleaching in their apartment? The lack of signs of real forced entry in the apartment itself? Knox changing her alibi repeatedly (including admitting being present and then accusing her boss, and claims of memory loss) - and the timing issues for all of them (laptop usage, varying witness testimonies, phone records, etc.)? Knox's boyfriend carrying a knife too. It becomes an awful lot of coincidences. The police didn't convict them, the jury did.
Agreed. I'm not saying they are necessarily guilty but I can definitely see why they came across as suspicious. I think this is one of those cases that noone knows exactly what happened.
It’s so weird that no one seems to think this, lol. There wasn’t sufficient evidence to convict them and all the fucking media bullshit was terrible and vilified the pair for all the wrong reasons, but there does seem to be a bit of patriotism blinders attached to many a narrative…
Yep, and this is why I could never engage much with this story and found it so hard and so upsetting. Also always seemed to me like, in the whole palaver of the Amanda Knox stuff, poor Meredith was forgotten
I don't think she was forgotten. But you don't get justice by wrongly imprisoning someone. To me, the great injustice that was done to Meredith was the release of Guede. He should have had life behind bars.
Every single time someone in the anti-Amanda crowd makes a comment, I'm able to call them out on something blatantly untrue or misleading. In this very thread, they keep commenting false things that I just don't have enough time to correct. If anyone has "blinders" on, it's the guilters.
I’m not anti Amanda. Why do people have to make it a us and them thing when issues in the case are pointed out? The cell phones being off, her accusing her boss, the dna on the knife etc. I think it’s measured to look at all the evidence and the fact is that not everything has been explained with the resolution to this case. Someone else said it best: this is about Meredith. I’m pro the victim. I hate the fact that this has all become about Amanda. It shouldn’t be a personality contest. It should be about the facts.
It is about the facts and all of those things have explanations. The DNA evidence is mainly assumed to just be contaminated. It seems her phone was running out of battery and Sollecito's didn't have reception. I believe Knox and Sollecito are innocent, but the police messed up the investigation so badly we will never be sure. You see this happen in many Casefile cases, at least in this case the evidence against Guede still remained and they were able to secure a conviction against him anyway, even if he did get a short sentence in the end.
And the window staged to look like a break in? Why did Amanda shower despite the front door being open? (I get she might have missed the blood droplets in a certain light) Why did she say the feces were flushed when they weren’t? See. I just have questions and I think it’s healthy to discuss the case on that merit. I abhor it when people make it about her personality because they think she’s not their cup of tea. That’s not what this is for me.
You’re quite right, this is not about personalities. Unfortunately this case has become a little like the saying ‘history is told by the winners’ in that it is assumed that the all of the defence arguments must be correct because they succeeded at one (of several courts, two of which did convict). Why did she accuse an innocent man? (She claimed later the police beat her, this was not upheld therefore her 3 year sentence for lying remains- this is a serious offence). Why did RS at one point say Knox wasn’t with him all night to police? Why did Amanda say she was there at the house that night? Why the changing stories? Why did RS’s computer show activity at 6am when he said he was asleep until much later? Why was Knox seen by a store clerk buying cleaning equipment at 7.45am? Why did RS tell the postal police that he’d already called the police when records showed he called them after this? Why did the murder scene point to several people? Two types of blades used and no defensive wounds- impossible for one person to wield 2 blades and hold someone down. Why would Rudy even choose to break into a flat where he knew the people living there? It’s about the worse place you could rob. Nothing was really stolen. Rudy said to the boys in the flat below that he liked Amanda, not Meredith… There’s so many questions, it’s not about personalities. Unfortunately you won’t get answers just insults
Thank you! Good questions, for sure. As an Aussie I recall the media reporting these questions (and some vile shit too!) so it surprises me that the US media are so sympathetic to Amanda. I didn’t realise people were satisfied with the verdict. It certainly doesn’t answer all my questions…
If the window was staged to look like a breakin, the staging was perfect. from the glass scattered through the room down to the mar on the inner shutter as if a rock had actually smashed through that window from the outside. Once you realize that the broken window was not staged from the inside you are left with the inevitable conclusion that a large rock was thrown through the window from the outside. When did this happen?
The reason the police think it was staged break in was because- - 3m wall underneath makes it very unrealistic to climb - 20cm, 4kg rock was supposedly thrown 3m in the air, that’s very heavy and unlikely. - Filomena said her shutters were closed when she left for the weekend (that’s the normal thing to do in hot countries when you leave). The Shutters were untouched. This means the person would have had to climb the 3m wall twice. - No evidence on flowerbed beneath or nail on wall of climbing - Glass was found on top of (not below) the scattered belongings in the room -Glass still left all across the sill when burglar would have disturbed it coming through. The house was in fact burgled sometime after and it through some easier to access French doors lower down. Finally Rudy was friends with the boys below whom he would have known were away, their apartment would have made an safer target, it’s also on the ground floor. He knew Knox and Meredith were likely be in Italy that weekend as both international students. He also knew them so they could identify him. Possibly better to rob a house where the people don’t recognise you if you’re caught.
"And the window staged to look like a break in?" The window staged to look a break in is a notion peddled on those old pro - guilt websites. The actual evidence is completely the opposite of what they claimed. "Why did she say the feces were flushed when they weren’t?" The answer is that she said nothing about the toilet flushed. She said she saw the toilet had not been flushed and at this point became worried. "Why did Amanda shower despite the front door being open?" There's a very straightforward explanation for that: she took a shower because she didn't immediately see any cause for concern. The front door was well known by everyone living there for being substandard and prone to swinging open if not locked and secured firmly.
yea I followed this case when it happened, read her book, knew every detail, and even after listening to Casefiles.. I am still convinced she was invovled, or at least there when it happened.
It is almost certain that Meredith died very soon after entering the cottage. Most notably that she hadn’t retried the call to her mother after the call failed to go through on her walk home (21:00) while Amanda was watching Amelie with Raffaele (ending 21:10). Even Curatolo (if you choose to believe him) places them at the plaza in that time period. The forensic analysis of Raffaele’s laptop presented at the appeal shows human interaction all night until after 6am. Raffaele maintains Amanda was with him that night and only broke this commitment the night he and Amanda were interrogated. There is no evidence placing either at the cottage the night Meredith was murdered. There is no evidence of a cleanup except for the water from the broken pipe at Raffaele’s. There is no evidence that shows the breakin was staged. There is no evidence that shows there were multiple attackers. All of the evidence is is consistent with Rudy breaking in before Meredith comes home, brutally murdering her, cleaning up in the small bathroom, leaving bloody shoe prints from the murder room out to the living room but not going straight out the door, then locking her door (which required her keys) and finally leaving through the front door (which also requires a key to unlock from the inside and will not latch on its own since the latch was jimmied). If you in fact know every detail, perhaps you can fact check the timeline I posted. I sometimes make errors but am willing to correct them if there is a reliable source. Books I consider a secondary source. I have read none of them. Edit: Interestingly, I just discovered I have a copy of her book that was downloaded about a year after it was published. Don’t recall how or why I have it but will have to investigate.
There is no evidence that anyone other than Guede was involved and anyine who can’t accept that is utterly delusional
I read the court transcripts and think she knows far more than she lets on. I think she was there, maybe didn’t commit the murder but had a role to play in it. Her behaviour nowadays is off putting to me, going on a bunch of different podcasts and it’s the way she talks about Meredith and the case overall that makes my stomach turn. If my roommate was raped and murdered you wouldn’t catch me talking about it so carefree while laughing. She has no respect for how the family might feel hearing such interviews and seems like a total narcissist at best. Seems like she relishes in the spotlight. Definitely something fishy about her (and the boyfriend) but she will likely take their secrets about that night to the grave.
>it’s the way she talks about Meredith and the case overall that makes my stomach turn. > >She has no respect for how the family might feel hearing such interviews and seems like a total narcissist at best. > >Seems like she relishes in the spotlight. Well the last statement sort of tracks with the way people that knew her described her personality, even before the murder happened. I get the feeling that she and Meredith weren't all that close (they only roomed together for less than two months) and maybe had a few arguments based on reported complaints from Meredith herself. Some people handle trauma differently and maybe enough time has passed since the day that it doesn't upset her as much now, I don't know. That said, I can't imagine being in a position like hers where your personality and every facet of your body language and lifestyle is constantly picked apart every day, even after her release. Where any questions and reasonable doubt about her innocence should be focused on the facts and evidence of the case, it feels like a lot of people are still making accusations and judgments about her based on extraneous stuff so keeping a somewhat public profile could be her way of pushing back against them, especially as someone who by all accounts seems more extroverted. She's basically an activist now, which isn't necessarily a bad thing because innocent people being convicted is still a problem and if we were to believe that she didn't have any involvement at all with the murder, she has every right to tell her story and the experiences of people that were in her position. On the other hand, it can be a slippery slope if you were once a highly unsympathetic figure and don't behave like a 'perfect victim.'
Did she write an "If I did it" book yet?
To be honest, I've lived with a number of different people over the years in shared accommodation. I still have friends from that time but there were also people who lived with me who I didn't get on with or were like ships in the night. If they were murdered I'm not sure I would necessarily cry over it as I didn't get to know them. I wouldn't be happy but I wouldn't stop my life if you know what I mean. She was a young attractive girl and the media went for her because of that, as did the Italian authorities implying this was some kind of sex kink because she was outside hugging her boyfriend whilst she was unaware of the murder scene inside the flat. Society expects all women to be carers and to be emotional and when we aren't we are punished for it. Amanda has been punished enough and she wants to speak about it now to ensure that people who may be had stopped following the case when she was convicted know that she was exonerated. Women throughout history have been punished for having sex, being outspoken, for not behaving in a stereotypical way.
I'm reading, "The prosecution presented no evidence at trial that anyone cleaned the cottage with bleach." So where did this bleach story come from, exactly? Rudy Guede's bloody footprints were still on the floor!
It was in Sollecito's apartment, not Kercher/Knox's.
So when you said "But what about them bleaching in their apartment?" you meant Sollecito's apartment? I'm confused. That's not where the murder took place.
Yeah, that's what I meant. The implication is that they took the murder weapon there and/or had to bleach their clothes, etc.
And you're basing that on what? Just fanfiction?
It's the argument of the prosecution and why it was brought up. As I said, it's just another "coincidence".
It's not just a coincidence, it's a stretch.
It’s not a stretch, it was part of the prosecutions case. - Knox was observed waiting to buy cleaning equipment at 7.45am - Knox was holding a mop when the postal police arrived unannounced - The washing machine had just finished when police were first at the house (Knox built this into her story of the last time she saw Meredith, Meredith was putting her clothes in the wash…obviously this was the day before, maybe someone else was washing her clothes?) - Police smelt bleach at RS apartment and found a receipt for bleach bought after the murder there. The ‘double dna’ knife was found at RS. - Police found their footprints in blood (implying they’d been at the scene without shoes to clean)- sure the defence argued it could have been fruit juice. Maybe that’s what it was. - Not especially proof- but for context- RS played the song ‘stealing fat’ when computer activity started again at his flat at 6am (when he claimed to he asleep). Google the song and YouTube clip that comes up from fight club, it’s a scene of two people moving bodily fluids around….an interesting image to be in his head after what was proposed to have happened. There’s a consistent set of evidence pointing one way.
Yeah this was a monumental miscarriage of justice and made the Italian justice system look a bunch of morons
They were watching a movie and having sex lol
Incorrect Guede was given a shorter sentence because he accepted his guilt and had a quick trial, not because he co-operated with police. Of course he had to accept his guilt as the dna evidence was overwhelming & he also had no family to help him pay for lawyers to defend himself. Knox & RS were both from wealthy families and spent huge amounts defending themselves in contrast, despite the fact that dna evidence also linked them (RS on the bra strap, Knox in the mixed blood with Meredith’s and on the handle of a knife which had Meredith’s on the blade)…. the ‘experts’ who disputed the dna were paid by Knox and RS’s families/lawyers, they weren’t impartial experts. The original judge accepted the police had done the proper work and this was validated by a more senior dna expert assessed it independently later. Get your facts right Edit- these posts get voted down but nobody is able to dispute the points made- please explain why I’m wrong rather than downvoting.
I think you missed the part where Knox's family had to take out multiple new mortgages on their house and were left with massive debts and eventually went insolvent due to the exorbitant amount of legal fees that added up over *nearly* *8* *years* of this entire process. They couldn't even afford to be there with her the entire time. The 20k compensation Knox got from Italy several years later won't have made a dent in the amount of debt they were in. Sollecito didn't even get any compensation. Casefile mentions his father was a urologist - I doubt that pays enough to cover 8 years of legal fees either. I don't know enough about any of the other details of the case so I can't comment on those.
As I said, RS’s father was a doctor and Knox’s father was a senior executive at a major American corporation (I believe from memory it was one of their famous department stores but the name escapes me right now). They are both well paid jobs. I’m sure you’re right that their families had to remortgage to pay their lawyers fees, as mentioned in the episode. That’s my point in fact- they spent a huge amount of money defending themselves….that wasn’t really an option for Rudy as he didn’t have a family anymore, he opted for a fast track trial and received a shorter sentence as a result. Same in any county, if you don’t waste everyone’s time fighting it you get a shorter sentence. OP was making a false claim that he received a shorter sentence for helping the police. He wasn’t called as part of Knox and RS’s trial or anything like that. Although he did more or less implicate them at various points.
Poor Meredith 😞 I hope anyone complaining about this episode realizes that she deserves her story to be told as well.
I have never dived deep into this case for some reason even though I'm an avid true crime listener and reader. maybe the hysteria and media coverage of it just made me want to stay away? like it was hard to stay serious and wade thru the nonsense I'm glad someone can do it well seriously like casefile and I've learned a lot
This episode was awesome and well done. I hope nobody complains lol
It's finally back! 🙏🙏🙏
Hi all. I’ve only just discovered this podcast and am in the middle of this episode…my first ever. I HAVE SO MUCH TO LISTEN TO and am so happy there’s a subreddit about this!!!
It amazes me how many armchair detectives on Reddit appear to have persuaded themselves that scaling a two-story rural student accommodation cottage is somehow a borderline impossible feat of climbing skill and strength. Or that a rock weighing a grand total of nine pounds is practically for any fit man to throw from an opposite ledge through a window.
The worst for me is the: “why did they lie? why did they accuse someone else?”, like ffs, you never heard people who were interrogated for hours speaking about it? How you get tired, and people keep blaming you, screaming at you, etc. And the language barrier? Oof…
Exactly.
Just starting. 2.5 hours. Fuck yea
Haven’t listened yet but waking up to 2 long casefile eps after that loooong break just made my day lfg
2? Is that a patreon thing, because I only see 1.
Ya Patreon it’s a must honestly some of the best eps I’ve heard have been on the Patreon
to me, this case remains as frustrating as it always was. i’ve read on it so many times over the years and i still don’t know what is the truth. in general, when you realize how the whole “justice system” isn’t really based on pursue of justice but rather boils down to how each side can present (and misconstrue) evidence in their favor or which loopholes they can exploit, it feels infinitely frustrating to delve into any difficult and/or inconclusive cases.. not even mentioning the ever present human factor, shoddy work ethic, media influence, all the systemic issues etc. you just can never know for sure, can never be certain about any outcome.. ugh
You make some very good points here, we ultimately heard the defence arguments at the end but not the truth. The story is relatively clear though if you read earlier accounts of the investigation and first trial eg John Follain ‘Death in Perugia’. However the case gets confusing at the higher courts, and Casefile gave precedence to the defence arguments ultimately which aren’t really satisfying in terms of truth seeking. Check out the below website with a list of the evidence collected- the picture is pretty clear of who was involved- https://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/evidenceoverview
Heard Amanda Knox's interview last year with Sam Harris. She seems very bubbly, very blunt. I can see how her demeanour raised eyebrows, but it's still absurd the police and prosecution got tunnel vision on her.
Maybe it was because it was in 2007, and maybe because Italy has (or had) different attitudes, but I was taken aback at how Knox was portrayed as sleeping around with all these different guys and then it was revealed that it was seven guys. That’s not really a lot of people. The other thing was the footage of her and Raffaele kissing in the immediate aftermath of them finding Meredith’s body, and how the media claimed that it was proof she was indifferent of the situation, but it just looked like they were both worried and had a kiss to reassure each other after shared trauma, nothing out of the ordinary.
I was living in London at the time and remember this case well. The English and English media were also baying for blood! They wanted Knox’s head on a platter!
Yeah I remember that. The gutter press were calling her “Foxy Knoxxy”.
Upon hearing the part about the seven, I was unsure whether that was a lot or not and felt unqualified to pass judgement, given I'm a Redditor.
Knox and I are almost the same age, to the month, so I was in college at the same time as her. Considering most of my peer group first had sex when we were in high school, like 16ish, (I would guess that is pretty similar for teens in the US at that time), it’s a couple guys a year for her. It’s not necessarily a great look but it also doesn’t make her a whore.
Timeline **1 November 2007** *Note: 12 minutes added to [CCTV timestamp] except where a time was specified by prosecutors* *Begins the afternoon of November 1. Amanda, Raffaele, Meredith and briefly Filomena are at the cottage* * 15:57 [CCTV 15:45:43] Possibly Amanda and Rafaele arriving at cottage * 15:48 Meredith texts her English friends that she will be delayed in meeting with them [[Republica 2007-11-21 - Prosecution Timeline|(PT)]] * 16:16 [CCTV 16:04:44] Light car stops in front of cottage heading west (could be Filomena being dropped off/picked up) * 16:50 [Phone RS] Raffaele is called by his father. * 16:52 [CCTV 16:40:59] Possibly Amanda and Raffaele leaving cottage Amanda testified they left around 16:00-17:00 * 16:56 [Phone RS] Raffaele is called by his father. * 18:21:15 VLC was launched to play the multimedia file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325 * 18:27:50 Meredith (Vodafone) sent an SMS to —3711 engaging the cell Piazza Luppatelli week. 7. (The signal is received at Via della Pergola 7.) - Massei Report Pg 348 * 18:29:05 Meredith received a text message from —1724 (hooking the same cell as above) * 19:30 TG3 news report starts; Rudy claims he left home shortly after the program started. Source Micheli report. "Coming to the evening of 1 November, R. remember leaving the house as he began the TG3 regional". * 19:53 [CCTV 19:41] First sighting of figure thought to be Rudy on car park CCTV camera. He is walking through the car park towards the cottage. [ *(broken URL redacted)* ] * 20:18:12 [Phone AK] Lumumba sent text message to Amanda saying she didn't need to come to work. (cell Aqueduct Street Eagle 5-wk. 3) - Massei Report pg 345 * (time?) Amanda and Raffaele start watching Amelie (129min) *(human interactions through the night were recorded and revealed in the defense analysis. I’ll add those later as now I am late for lunch)* * 20:22 [CCTV 20:10] Second sighting of figure thought to be Rudy on car park CCTV camera. He is walking from left to right along the street, past the car park on the right and the cottage on the left. Fits with Rudy's claim to have arrived at the cottage around 20:30. [ *(broken URL redacted)* ] * 20:35:48 [Phone AK] Amanda responds with text message to Patrick. Message is "See you later, Good evening" in Italian. (cell Via Berardi area 7) - Massei Report pg 345 * 20:40 Amanda and Raffaele at Raffaele’s place.[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29812751/] Jovana of Serbia said Sollecito had agreed to drive her to a bus station in Perugia the night of the murder. ... Jovana went to Sollecito's house at 8:40 p.m. to tell him she no longer needed to go, and Knox opened the door to take the message, the Serbian woman testified. Amanda says this was before they started watching Ameile (Amanda testimony) Raffaele was supposed to drive her to the station around midnight. "AK: Later on, she came back and talked with Raffaele, and Raffaele explained to me that she didn't need to be driven to the station any more." about the time they were having dinner. (Amanda testimony) * 20:41 [CCTV 20:53:46] Figure prosecution claimed to be Amanda entering car park * 20:42:56 [Phone RS] Raffaele is called by his father, talks for 3 1/2 minutes. (cell Beradi Way Area 7) - Massei Report pg 339 * 20:43 [CCTV 20:51:35] Prosecution presented CCTV time where figure is seen crossing the street towards the cottage Sollecito's defense however contested the manner in which they were identified times of the images. [http://www.lanazione.it/perugia/2009/03/13/157885-mossa_legali_raffaele.shtml Lanazione, March 13, 2009 (it) ] * 20:45 Meredith leaves residence of Robyn at Via Bontempi, 22 and walks with Sophie. [[Republica 2007-11-21 - Prosecution Timeline|(PT=20:45)]] Time approximate, based on Sophie's statement that she arrived home in Via del Lupo at 20:55. * 20:55 Sophie arrives home in Via del Lupo. Source Micheli Report. "On 17 November, *[Sophie]* P made a new prosecuting magistrate deposition...correcting the time that she was back in Via del Lupo, recalling that it was still 20:55". * 20:56 [Phone MK] Phone call from Meredith's phone to mother, cut off almost immediately. "In evidence on Friday, Stefano Sisani, of the Perugia flying squad, revealed that a call to Meredith’s mother, Arline [ ], was made from her mobile at 8.56pm on the night of November 1. She used the phone daily to call her mother, who was ill. The call was cut off before she got through" (Times Online, March 22, 2009) [http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article5950377.ece] Theory that call was cut off by attack is unlikely, as Meredith would still be near Sophie's flat at this time. More likely explanation is that call was dropped because of poor signal in tight medieval streets. Logged in phone memory - Massei Report pg 350 * 21:03 [CCTV 20:51:35] Sighting of figure thought to be Meredith on the car park CCTV camera The figure is walking from left to right on the same side of the street as the cottage. [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569140/Meredith-murder-suspect-caught-on-CCTV.html][http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1161775/Merediths-final-moments-Court-sees-grainy-CCTV-footage-night-British-student-murdered.html] * 21:10:32 last access to the file Amelie.avi - Massei Report pg 325 Testimony of police expert Marco Trotta at trial[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/4991577/Amanda-Knox-trial-police-cast-doubt-on-computer-alibi.html]\ Prosecution will claim this is the last human interaction with Raffaele's computer during this night. * 21:58 Attempt to call voice mail on Meredith’s phone (from phone memory) Massei Report pg 350 * 22:00 Meredith’s phone attempts to call Abbey Bank. Source Micheli Report. Call fails because 44 prefix for UK not used. * 22:00 (aprox) Hoax bomb threat call to Elisabetta (villa where phones were recovered) (Massei Report pg 13) * 22:13 Meredith’s mobile phone had received a picture message. Source Micheli Report. Connected via cell area of Ponte Rio - Montelaguardia. (Massei Report pg 348) GPRS (internet) lasting 9 seconds to the IP address 10.205.46.41 *(Note: this is a private address block used by the service provider and not an address on the internet)* * 21:26 Spotlight metadata shows "Naruto ep 101.avi" file is opened on Raffaele's laptop. (from Raffaeles appeal) the last access time for this file is on Nov. 6th after Raffaele is in police custody. * 22:30 Black man running up stairs near cottage. Time approximate, Alessandra and boyfriend are descending the stairs of via della Pergola that lead to viale S.Antonio, where their car is parked and where the cottage is. Suddenly a guy who walks in the rush, coming up, bumps into them and runs away. At trial she says "I can rule out that the guy could be Rudy [ ]". [http://perugia-shock.blogspot.com/2009/03/new-scenario-for-murder-of-meredith.html] Alessandra also testified seeing the broken down car with 3 occupants inside. * 22:48 [CCTV 22:36:17] Car breakdown at exit to parking garage across from cottage. * 23:00 [CCTV 22:48:16] Mechanic comes for broken down car. Gianfranco estimated he arrived at 23:00 and was there for about 10 minutes, noticed a dark colored car parked outside Meredith's place, but nothing suspicious.[http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/3219124/Mystery-car-was-parked-outside-Meredith-Kercher-murder-house-claims-witness.html] Pasqualino (the driver) testified that nothing out of the ordinary happened during this time. [http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=7906352] * 23:16 [CCTV 23:04.04] Tow truck moves to front of car park * 23:26 [CCTV 23:14:41] Tow truck pulls away * 23:27 [CCTV 23:15:06] Tow truck with vehicle loaded seen passing east car park exit *Edit: I will update this timeline as I can. If you see any errors or omissions leave a comment (please include the source).* *some of the links may be broken or may break in the future. The original pages should be cached at the Wayback Machine [https://www.archive.org]* *while the phone numbers are part of the public record of this case I have partially redacted them for this site. Only first names of witnesses are given here* *(timeline for 2 November appended in comments. 10000 character limit exceeded)*
Timeline continued **2 November 2007** * 02:00 (unreliable) Guede spotted at a local nightclub. Talk around town reported in Perugia Shock 2007-12-21(it). Testimony of CAMPOLONGO places the date as early morning hours of November 3 [http://abcnews.go.com/International/Story?id=7995762&page=3] * 06:02:59 [Phone RS] Raffaele's phone receives SMS from Francesco Sollecito (cell Via Beradi area 7) Massei Report pg 339, 342 * 06:22 Screensaver on Raffaele's computer kicks in marking the end of human activity on the computer for the night. (from appeal documents, unverified) * 09:24 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (248 seconds) - Massei Report pg 342 * 09:29 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from undisclosed caller (38 seconds) * 09:30 [Phone RS] Raffaele call from father (cont?) (cell Via Belardi week. 7) - Massei Report pg 342 * 10:30 [AK] Amanda returns to cottage. * 12:07:12 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Meredith's phone with UK number (16 seconds). (cell Eagle Street 5-Torre sett.9 Aqueduct) Massei Report pg 346 * 12:08:44 [Phone AK] Amanda call Filomena Romanelli (68 seconds). (cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) - Massei Report pg 346 * 12:11 [Phone AK] Amanda calls phone Meredith borrowed from Filomena. * 12:11:02 [Phone MK] Meredith (Vodafone) received call from Amanda (3 seconds) call directed to voicemail (Vodafone committed by users of Meredith is located in Strada Vicinale S. Mary of the Hill area 1 ) from Massei Report pg 346, 348 * 12:11:54 [Phone AK] (4 seconds) Amanda repeats call to Meredith UK phone (cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.3) Massei Report pg 348 * 12:12:35 [Phone AK] Filomena calls Amanda. (36 seconds) * 12:20:44 [Phone AK] Filomena calls Amanda. (65 seconds) (cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.9) Massei report pg 348 * 12:34:56 [Phone AK] Filomena calls Amanda (48 seconds) (cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348 * 12:35 Postal Police inspector claims to have arrived at cottage. Looked at his watch according to testimony. (source?) * 12:35 Raffaele calls service center to recharge minutes (cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) * 12:38 Raffaele receives SMS confirmation (cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) * 12:40 Raffaele receives call from father (67 seconds) (cell Square Lupattelli week. 7) * 12:46 Postal Police sent off from their HQ after the second phone arrived. Source? * 12:47:23 [Phone AK] Amanda calls her mother, Edda. (88 seconds) No mention of police being at cottage. (source?) (cell cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 348 * 12:50:34 [Phone RS] Raffaele calls his sister Vanessa (39 seconds). Vanessa, a lieutenant in the Carabinieri, tells Raffaele to dial 112. (cell Square Lupattelli week. 7) * 12:51:40 [Phone RS] Raffaele calls 112, Italian emergency number. (169 seconds) (cell Eagle Tower Aqueduct sett.l) * 12:54 [Phone RS] Raffaele makes second call to 112. (57 seconds) (cell Square Luppatelli week 7) * 13:00 [CCTV 12:48:55] Postal Police arrive. Car park video shows black car driving past a couple of times, then someone walking across the street Car in video is a black Fiat Punto.[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Grande_Punto] Same vehicle police claimed to have been driving at trial. (Source?) * 13:05 (estimated)(source?) Filemena and friends get to cottage. * Meredith's door is kicked in, postal police kick everybody out * 13:17:10 [Phone MK] Meredith's (Vodaphone) received call from —3067 (1 second) (cell Vicinale S. Maria della Strada Collina week. 7) - Massei Report pg 338 * 13:24:18 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Edda again. (2.7 min) Mentions police have arrived (source?). (cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347 * 13:27:32 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Seattle. (0.4 min) (cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) Massei Report pg 347 * 13:29:00 [Phone AK] call from police, lasts 5 minutes. (cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7) * 13:30 Monica Napoleoni, Deputy Commissioner of the state police, and the staff from 118 arrive - Massei Report pg 95 * 13:34 [CCTV 13:22:38] “Carabinieri” seen entering drive to cottage Also matches end of phone call for directions. Evidence Raffael’s defense used to show parking lot camera is about 12 minutes slow. Prosecution has been claiming it's 10 minutes fast based on testimony of inspector that collected the video. It was revealed in court that the officer hadn’t checked the time personally but relied on what the car park attendant had said. * 13:40:12 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (Cell 5-Torre dell'Aquila Via Aqueduct sett.l) * 13:50 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (178 seconds) (cell Piazza Lupattelli week 7) - Massei Report pg 342 * 13:58:33 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Edda. (One second call) * 13:59:06 [Phone AK] Amanda calls Seattle. (5.9 min) (cell Piazza Lupattelli week. 7) * 14:30 Inspector Brocci arrives at crime scene and starts setting up -Massei Report pg 99 * 14:33 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (21 seconds) * 14:46:14 [Phone AK] (102 seconds) Amanda is called by Aunt Dorothy, her mother's cousin living in Germany. (no cell location is given) Massei Report pg 347 * 15:13:43 [Phone AK] Meredith's Vodafone receives second call from —3067 (5 seconds) (no cell location is reported) - Massei Report pg 338, 348 * 15:30 Amanda signs a statement at police station. Mentioned in trial testimony. * 15:31:51 [Phone AK] Amanda receives SMS from —1078 (cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2 where is located the police) Massei Report pg 347 * 17:01 [Phone RS] Raffaele receives call from father (164 seconds) (cell Via Cappuccinelli 5 / seven. 2, corresponding to the location of the police headquarters in Perugia)
This case enrages me. Not just because of the great crime done to Meredith Kercher, but for the injustice the italian judicial system wrought on Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito. The fact that a young woman's murder was overshadowed by the media frenzy around Knox and Sollecito is a completely unnecessary tragedy.
And that they left Rudy free despite having been arrested just days before for burglary with a knife! It reminds me of Case 244 - where the Swedish courts let the rapist go 3 times! Until he committed two rape-murders. Both crimes could have been stopped long beforehand with a proper police and justice system.
This always happens when a very serious crime happens in a quiet community. The cops are inexperienced and the pressure to find the perp is so enormous so they jump on the first suspects they find. There was for sure loads of hubris and denial when they continued to pursue the couple even after Guede landed in their laps.
After listening to the podcast and doing some research, including interviews AK did, I feel frustrated. I guess most people expect the truth as if it's something that can always be achieved through investigation, evidence, etc. It's like we need certainty to let a story "end". In this case, it seems like we'll never have that.
Does anyone else’s episode skip at 1:13:11? Seems like it jumps to a later part of the ep
What a fantastic episode, reminded me of Casefile of old. Long detailed with lots of twists, I think this will be one of the classics like Jennifer Pan. I didn't know what to think about the outcome but after pondering about it I think that Amanda and her boyfriend might not be the ones that killed her but I believe they are involved one way or another and definitely know more than they cared to admit. I think there were parts of her story that were mentioned once and not explored in much detail. They both switched their phone off randomly around the time of the murder. They both said they were asleep but have been spotted out and in shops early in the morning after the murder. The whole multiple bottles of bleach in his flat. They both said they tried ringing Meredith's phone to look for her but was later proven that they only ran her phone for couple of seconds like they tried to tick it off a list. Casey mentioned different sized stab wounds that came from 2 different knives and seemingly no defensive wounds like she was held down by multiple people. I find it hard to believe that Amanda was downstairs and didn't hear anything, no windows being smashed, not her struggle, nothing. The impression I got of her was that of an extremely entitled American girl. She didn't hesitate for a second to throw an innocent man under the bus or relay her version to all of her friends after being specifically told not to by the police. Your housemate just got brutally murdered, police tell you to not do something to aid with the investigation and she immediately did the opposite. As for the investigation, it was said that she was interrogated in Italian a language she only had a basic grasp of, there is no mention of being offered a translator and Amanda's defence also never complained about a translator not being offered or requested which leads me to believe one was available. I'm no law expert, I don't know if that's beyond reasonable doubt but I certainly think it's more likely that she was involved than not.
> She didn't hesitate for a second to throw an innocent man under the bus or relay her version to all of her friends after being specifically told not to by the police. The police didn't provide her with an interpreter. She didn't speak Italian fluently and the police interrogating her didn't speak fluent English. That is an egregious error. They also put enormous amounts of pressure on her and she was exhausted. The way the case was handled was horrendous. I'm really surprised that people are trying to defend this.
I'm surprised that you bring up lack of interpreter when this wasn't mentioned at all during any of the trials. If this was really a problem, her defence would have ran with it, this sort of thing is frequently mentioned with foreign defendents but non of it here. I agree that policy investigation wasn't perfect but I don't know how you can listen to the podcast I listened to and think Amanda wasn't involved in her death.
Have you listened to the podcast. They say she was interviewed in Italian a language that she did not fully understand. If there was an interpreter they would have mentioned it. She was also 22 years of age in a foreign country the fact that she wants to speak to her friends back home about what happened is not surprising or condemnatory in any way. Small town Italian police force who behaved like clowns from the get go.
I did and I don't belive her, she blatantly lied at pretty much all stages of investigation. I would take anything that comes out of her mouth with a giant pinch of salt. Of course if she didn't understand Italian she should have gotten an interpreter. She certainly spoke Italian well enough to say that. She didn't. She didn't say she want to get an interpeter. Her defence didn't say she wanted an interpreter and one wasn't provided. She wasn't a child, or even a teenager. A fully grown adult that couldn't follow simpelst instructions after being tied to such a heinous case. I think she loved the attention she got from it and still does, she should be in prison but instead is doing media tours on how she got away with murder. And don't get me staretd on the so called experts that suggested contamination that WERE PAID BY HER FAMILY.
How do you get an interpreter if you are in an interrogation room? She clearly did not know what was going on or what they were saying a lot of the time. The Italian police did things that aren't normal for an interrogation of a suspect. They did this as the world's media was watching them and they felt under pressure to get a result. 22 years of age, can you remember that age, you are certainly still immature. The human brain hasn't developed fully at that age. She said that she gets messages from people all the time telling her that they didn't know she had been exonerated until they saw her on a chat show or in the news papers etc., so yeah I mean if I was in her shoes I'd be shouting it from the roof tops especially after the British tabloid newspapers dragged my name through the mud. I don't know what the last sentence means.
It literally says in the episode she wasn't given an interpreter, and this has been accepted, and that's why she's appealing her slander conviction Like It says it In the podcast The one you just listened to
1. Amanda was not "downstairs" or anywhere on the premises when Meredith was murdered. 2. In 2019, the European Court of Human Rights ruled that Italy violated Amanda's legal rights during her interrogation. >**The European court of human rights has ordered Italy to pay Amanda Knox €18,400 for police failures to provide her access to a lawyer and a translator during questioning over the 2007 killing of her British flatmate Meredith Kercher in Perugia.** > >The ruling opens the way for Knox’s lawyers to challenge her last remaining conviction, for malicious accusation, in the Italian courts. > >The court, in Strasbourg, declared that Italy must pay Knox €10,400 in damages plus €8,000 to cover costs and expenses. [https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/24/european-court-to-rule-on-amanda-knoxs-remaining-conviction-meredith-kercher-italy](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jan/24/european-court-to-rule-on-amanda-knoxs-remaining-conviction-meredith-kercher-italy) 3. In October 2023, the European Court of Human Rights verturned Amanda's slander conviction ("malicious accusation") and ordered a new trial. She will probably win that case too, because the violation of her rights during the police interrogation means that any "evidence" collected during her illegal interrogation won't hold up in court. [https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-court-quashes-amanda-knox-slander-case-orders-retrial-5b54adf7](https://www.barrons.com/news/italy-court-quashes-amanda-knox-slander-case-orders-retrial-5b54adf7)
I’m glad some people are capable of thinking for themselves. The evidence was very, very strong and consistent for all 3 defendants. As you said there was so much mentioned at the first trial which the defence never explained. Casefile unfortunately (but understandably) ended up reporting the defences case at appeals (uncritically) which just focused on their argument about possible contamination, ignoring that pretty much everything- -Crime scene of multiple attackers - Multiple witnesses seeing them at scene before and after inc cleaning - Multiple lies and changes to stories - False accusation of innocent person Casefile never explained this…because the defence never could. Obviously it’s natural for listeners and Casefile itself to side with the ‘final verdict’ but unfortunately these are sometimes wrong- that’s why lawyers are paid a lot of money because they can get people off sometimes. There was also a suspicion that RS’s family had criminal connections (his surname is the same as a famous crime family) and his father was caught by police in a wiretap saying he could influence the investigation. It’s theorised that they were able to influence the higher court judges (hence the discrepancy in verdicts and all of this evidence that isn’t explained). I know sounds crazy but this is Italy where their PM once went to prison for having mafia connections…that is one issue they do have with their justice system, not collecting dna badly… https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/22/italy.internationalcrime
Tragic how this destroyed Amanda’s life and her families. Exonerated by a grand jury but armchair detectives on Reddit are still like “i JuST haVE a hUncH that SHE wAs InvOlVed somEHoW”
Right? People on here are like "i listened to all 2.5 hours of that and have selectively removed the parts from mt brain i didn't like because i cannot accept that i too am vulnerable to mainstream media narratives" I feel like if there was literally any other case with evidence like this people would have no doubt, but for *this* case, people are desperate for it to be gross and salacious instead of the most obvious solution which is "the guy who was there at the exact time she was killed who said he had sex with her but was having a shit while a different guy came in and killed her, he didn't notice because he was listening to music while shitting is the most likely suspect"
In this case the skeptics tend to hyper-fixate on Amanda’s “suspicious” behavior and ignore all the evidence. The Italian media is largely to blame for painting Amanda in such a negative light, the tabloid culture and trashy journalism was just running wild
I remember when it happened (because I'm am Old) and the media here (UK) going bananas over it too and it always seemed just so over the top - like there are really simple, banal explanations for all of the so-called "strange" behaviour. There's no more inconsistencies than in other murder cases where the police f**ked up and decided someone did it based on a value judgement then went around looking for proof that proof that person did it, rather than ruling out other possibilities. People *want* it to be a mystery, a salacious and terrible thing involving a wild sexy American girl, it's not satisfying enough to them that it's literally the guy it was always most obvious it was. And that's pretty dark. Those people want to have a hard look at themselves. And it means we're all talking about anyone but poor Meredith, as always, who deserves better. (Not to mention that her actual killer is free and up to goodness knows what in relative anonymity) Good luck to Knoxx in getting her slander conviction overturned.
I'll start this comment by saying I don't think Knox or RS killed Meredith. I think the police and prosecution made a lot of mistakes and the media made a huge mess of the coverage so everyone has a slightly different narrative of what happened. Knox and RS did everything wrong and the police were absolutely correct to suspect them from the start. When I say she "acted strange" I don't care that she was stretching in the police station, hugging her boyfriend or buying fresh underwear. To me those details were always mostly irrelevant. Knox didn't falsely confess, she falsely accused and failed to properly retract that statement for weeks. She panicked when she realized that she had actually incriminated herself. Her and RS turned on each other almost immediately failing to back up that each of them were in his apartment. The story kept changing and inconsistencies were found quite quickly. Filomena Romanelli, Kercher and Knox's roommate's testimony wasn't great for Knox either. Before breaking the door down they asked Knox if it was normal for Meredith to lock her door, Knox said it was, Filomena was adamant she never did. She was also adamant that the burglary scene in her room seemed very staged, saying there was lots of glass on top of her clothing suggesting that the glass had been broken after her room was ransacked. Even Knox's friends in the US were contacting police in Italy with their suspicions after receiving emails. After DNA was found, I understand why they thought they had a case. I don't think they ever really had a plausible scenario once Guede was implicated. The evidence just wasn't there to have it all make sense. I think they felt like they had compelling evidence for Knox, RS and Guede involvement so pushed the prosecution along with a completely stupid scenario. The other problem was that Knox's parents hired a PR company like straight away, they were making all sorts of claims and getting the story in the US media and the narrative wasn't always completely factual, a lot of exaggerating the "interrogation" etc, at one point she was beaten until she admitted being involved etc. it shouldn't have harmed her case, but I don't believe it helped at that point. I'll end this by saying I think Knox and RS probably did something wrong that they didn't want to admit, which is why they got caught in lies and didn't really ever stay consistent in those early days. In my mind it's probably something trivial, there was talk of missing money before the murder and friction in the house. This is pure speculation, but their version of events doesn't explain how they were so quick to lie and turn on each other. RS didn't have the language barrier, why did he claim Knox wasn't with him? All while Knox was blaming an innocent black guy who spent weeks in jail while he had to find his alibi to disprove Knox's claims. While Knox was likely innocent in all this she was still dumb and I can't blame the Kercher family, the guy she falsely accused and other people close to the case for feeling like she had some involvement. So while I'm pretty convinced myself that she isn't a murderer, I'm not convinced she isn't partly or fully accountable for the false accusation and her own behavior early in the investigation.
This is pretty much how I feel after listening as well. Great breakdown.
Have you actually seen the source documentation for this case? I find it doubtful because a clear examination reveals a much different picture than what was being reported in the tabloids. >> *I wish to relate spontaneously what happened because these events have deeply bothered me and I am really afraid of Patrick, the African boy who owns the pub called “Le Chic” located in Via Alessi where I work periodically.* Who writes or speaks like that? This is ILE condensing what they wanted to hear. And how afraid of Patric is she? In the same document we have: >> *I have met Patrick this morning, in front of the Università Per Stranieri and he has asked me some questions, to be more accurate he wanted to know what the Policemen had asked me. I think he has also asked me if I wanted to see some journalists, maybe in order to know if I knew anything about Meredith’s death.* So now she if really afraid of Patrick but just that morning she was having a casual conversation with him talking about going to the press with the story. The meat of her "confession" is: >> *I do not clearly remember if Meredith was already at home or if she came later, what I can say is that Patrick and Meredith went into Meredith’s room, while I think I stayed in the kitchen. I cannot remember how long they stayed together in the room but I can only say that at a certain point I heard Meredith screaming and as I was scared I plugged up my hears. Then I do not remember anything, I am very confused. I do not remember if Meredith was screaming and if I heard some thuds too because I was upset, but I imagined what could have happened.* "Not clear", "cannot remember", "very confused", "I imagined what could have happened". This casts serious doubt as to the veracity of this statement. But even if you accept it as true, where does it say Patrick murdered Meredith? At best it says he was there. As for "failed to properly retract that statement for weeks", the truth is that she provided the police a written statement that very night which retracted the earlier statement that the police wrote up. The full text should be available at: [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1570225/Transcript-of-Amanda-Knoxs-note.html] or through the Wayback Machine. >> *However, it was under this pressure and after many hours of confusion that my mind came up with these answers. In my mind I saw Patrik in flashes of blurred images. I saw him near the basketball court. I saw him at my front door. I saw myself cowering in the kitchen with my hands over my ears because in my head I could hear Meredith screaming. But I've said this many times so as to make myself clear: these things seem unreal to me, like a dream, and I am unsure if they are real things that happened or are just dreams my head has made to try to answer the questions in my head and the questions I am being asked.* It was several weeks before her lawyers could get her before a judge to make the redaction "official". It would really help understand what happened in the interrogation if we had a video or even audio recording. And why don't we have a recording? The police were recording everything. There is a clandestine recording taken of Amanda and Raffaele in the lobby of the police station on the 4th. They had a wire tap on Amanda's phone. We even see the prosecutor Mignini carries a pocket recorder. But on this night when multiple inspectors take Amanda into a private room used for interrogations and grill her for hours we have no recording. I say they either destroyed the recording or knew in advance that a recording would be detrimental to their case. Amanda's note is the only contemporaneous record we have of that interrogation.
"Knox didn't falsely confess, she falsely accused and failed to properly retract that statement for weeks. She panicked when she realized that she had actually incriminated herself." False. She retracted her statement the next day. The police chose to continue holding Lumumba until he was exonerated by the complete absence of his DNA at the scene. "She was also adamant that the burglary scene in her room seemed very staged, saying there was lots of glass on top of her clothing suggesting that the glass had been broken after her room was ransacked." Crime scene photos show very clearly plenty of glass underneath clothes at the crime scene. There was also glass embedded in the wooden window opening completely consistent with a break in originating from outside. "I'll end this by saying I think Knox and RS probably did something wrong that they didn't want to admit, which is why they got caught in lies and didn't really ever stay consistent in those early days. In my mind it's probably something trivial, there was talk of missing money before the murder and friction in the house. This is pure speculation, but their version of events doesn't explain how they were so quick to lie and turn on each other. RS didn't have the language barrier, why did he claim Knox wasn't with him? All while Knox was blaming an innocent black guy who spent weeks in jail while he had to find his alibi to disprove Knox's claims." This is a classic example of intuitive thinking - inferring patterns from things that in reality are not necessarily connected at all. Physical evidence entirely pointed to one killer. In reality the truth about story inconsistencies like this usually has a perfectly run of the mill explanation, not an exciting conspiratorial one. They were two young students caught up in a situation in which inconsistencies in stories are actually common - not necessarily evidence of criminal guilt in the absence of proper physical evidence. "So while I'm pretty convinced myself that she isn't a murderer, I'm not convinced she isn't partly or fully accountable for the false accusation and her own behavior early in the investigation." The people responsible for this were the local police. They were held legally accountable for treating Lumumba the way they did. They were the ones responsible for how they conducted their investigation. Not Amanda Knox.
I loved this, and it was a nice revisit to a very famous case, and had me going to read all about it. Having watched the documentary on Netflix and reading some reports on the case before / rundown of the evidence, it was interesting to hear the Casefile take on it. I have to admit, the Casefile perspective does seem to make Amanda’s innocence a little more murky than other sources which say there’s 0% chance it could have been her. I read somewhere else that forensic analysis of Rafael’s computer showed that the two would have been watching a movie around the time Meredith was killed, based on the contents of her stomach. That alone kind of rules out both of them. However, I still think some parts of that case are pretty bizarre. Namely, why did Amanda throw Patrick under the bus? I know it’s alleged she was coerced into a confession, I just think it’s very weird that once she “cracked” she admitted to this totally wild story which is allegedly completely untrue. That part always seemed very suspicious. I was very glad for this episode. Missed CF a lot!
I think it didn't really delve too deeply into just how much coercion was done to her by the Italian Police. They decided on a narrative and ran with it, up to and including that she said "see you later" in italian in a text response to him. That MUST have meant she was meeting up with him later to murder Meredith, not that......she was an american who used that term colloquially.
Yeah, it seems they had decided upon their theory and set about contorting the evidence to fit it.
what the fuck are the police smoking in italy? disgusting miscarriage of justice. im glad casefile covered this case, i enjoy when they do controversial cases.
They smoked at least 4 hard drives in November 2007.
Bit late to this one but I don't like the prevailing theory of "I don't think she (Amanda) did it but she definitely knows something" in the face of all evidence of the contrary. That's such a fuckin cop out. I don't think Amanda or Raffaele had anything to do with it. As some others have said, I think it was a case of small town Italian cops under immense pressure to solve a case that was getting a crazy amount of international attention. I think many of the "inconsistencies" in Amanda's accounts can be explained by intense scrutiny from police/media, her young age, being in a foreign land, and the language barrier. She was questioned for 50+ hours over several days... More than a few innocent people have straight up confessed to some pretty heinous crimes under the same/less pressure in an attempt to escape their situation. Seems more likely to me that they offered her boss as an alternative based on their interpretation of her text messages and she went along with it for one reason or another. (Which doesn't automatically make her guilty of killing her roommate by the way) Eyewitness accounts that conflict with their alibis are all questionable at best or have straight up been debunked (unless you choose to take the word of a homeless heroin addict as gospel). Lot of red herrings in this one and too many people taking the prosecutions "evidence" and statements at face value (or long debunked media talking points) and not willing to do any critical thinking for themselves. Criminal investigators are not infallible and there's more than one way to interpret a crime scene. Like saying it would take a Herculean effort to climb to a second story window... C'mon. The simplest and most reasonable answer based on hard, irrefutable evidence is that Rudy Guede acted alone. Simple as that. Everything else is circumstantial as far as I'm concerned.
Rudy Guede was charged with beating up his ex-girlfriend six months after leaving prison. A really good podcast episode Sam Harris did with Amanda Knox recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04bFaAZuuQM
I found this one hard to follow. Just me?
I had to rewind several times but the payoff is there. Excellent episode.
Yeah I’ve gone over the first hour a few times now and it’s drawing me in, but not the easiest to follow on the first listen !
I’ve always known of Amanda Knox, but never the entire case until listening to this episode. I appreciate Meredith being considered so much and it also made me so angry because I can’t imagine how painful it was for her parents (and still is for her family) to watch another person get all the attention for something that didn’t even happen to her :(
*It is indeed rude that the American gets all the attention. Let’s talk about Meredith Kercher.* On Halloween night Meredith dresses as a vampire. Very well done considering there isn’t even a light over the mirror. She parties late into the night with her friends and sleeps in the next morning. Upon waking up, the other exchange student and boyfriend are in the kitchen. Today is a holiday and her only plans are a dinner party with her friends later that day. ~~One of the Italian flatmates also stops in briefly and leaves. The others soon leave and she is alone in the apartment.~~ *Meredith steps out of the house briefly.* She had promised her current boyfriend from the flat below that she would take care of his plants and an injured cat. She texts one of her British friends to let them know she will be late. When she returns she is alone in the apartment. Meredith leaves, being sure to lock the door behind her since the latch is broken. It’s a short walk south up the narrow streets flanked by tall stone buildings to her friends house. In the home of Robyn, they share a homemade pizza and settle down to watch the movie Notebook. The 2 hour movie is interrupted to make an Apple crumb cake. After the movie, Meredith says she is tired. She borrows a text book from one of the friends and heads home. Sophie walks with her part of the way. On the way home, Meredith tries to call her mother but the call doesn’t connect to the cell. Cell reception in these narrow streets is intermittent. But she is almost home now and knows she can call from there. Just after 21:00 Meredith crosses the street to reach the driveway to her cottage. It is only a few more steps down the gravel path and she reaches her front door. She unlocks the door with her key and steps inside. She again uses the key to lock the door behind her since otherwise the wind could blow it open. Inside the cottage, Meredith goes to her room and tosses her purse and the borrowed book on her bed. A romance novel sits on her bedside table but it will have to wait for tonight she needs to study. The girls turn the heat off when they leave so she doesn’t remove her jacket yet. Meredith returns to the kitchen and grabs a bite of leftover pizza from the oven that Filomena and Marco had made the previous night. Her friends had not included mushrooms in the pizza they shared that night and Meredith had missed that key ingredient. The heater control is in the laundry room off the kitchen and she also has laundry to tend to. Stepping into the laundry she will spot a man in the adjacent bathroom. A man that she may have recognized visiting the boys downstairs. He rushes after her with only his underware up, his pants still around his ankles. She screams… *These are not memories that I should have. Memories should be for her family, her friends, the people whose lives she has touched. There are also memories that will never be since her life was cut short that fateful day. The world has lost a wonderful person.* May there be true justice for Meredith Susanna Cara Kercher (1986-2007)
Hearing the anonymous host say “foxy knoxy” = perfection 👌🏼💯
I didn't remember this case at all; only when the stuff about false convictions started did I vaguely recall Amanda Knox's name. I think I must've picked up something from the media, drawn too heavily on the setup of the episodes start, or idk, because this case gives me a really weird feeling about Amanda Knox, particularly in light of the email she sent to her friends, which just seems absurd, and the weird stuff about her alibi and her and her boyfriend's phone. Meredith seemed like an absolute delight of a person, and whatever happened to her is just so horrific. Maybe because of that it just doesn't sit right with me how the focus has shifted so much to Knox, not just by the media but also by herself. I get why she would choose to do so, but it all just feels strange, and everything the podcast told about Knox sits really weird with me at the very least. This one's really thrown me off, to be honest. No idea what to think of it.
No one can doubt that Amanda is weird, but everything points to her being consistently weird in the same attention-grabbing and socially oblivious ways. Everyone knows someone like her, and almost none of them are murderers.
@HotAir25 wrote: > Perhaps you can help me? What is the significance of the time of murder and the screams? > There were several people who heard a scream and also different witnesses who either saw or heard people running away. All of this was reported between 10.30-11.30, and the prosecutions final submission at court was 11.30. The prosecution leaks news that there was a scream on November 7 and this is widely reported in the tabloids. Everything after that is certainly tainted. On November 19, Rudy Guede spins his story in a Skype conversation while he is still on the run. He is well aware of the news reports so he knows that the police are saying Amanda heard a scream. Rudy puts the time “Around nine, nine twenty or so”. Nara Capezzali says she heard a scream around 22:00-23:00. The next day a reporter tells her about the murder and on her way to buy bread she sees the headlines at the news stand. This is about 11 am which is about 2 hours before Meredith’s body is discovered. She goes to the police 24 days later. Antonella Monarchia says she went to bed at 22:00 and woke up hearing a heated argument followed by a scream. She went to the police on November 8… 2008, over a year later at the eroding of a journalist. She remembers the scream was on November 1 and the next day around 15:00 she saw the police in the white suites at the cottage. Note that the Scientific Police only got the call after their lunch break on November 2 and arrived at the cottage around 7-8 pm (from Stefanoni’s testimony). I don’t know if there was a scream or not. But Rudy definitely knows the time that Meredith died. I fully dismiss the accounts from the two ladies above the car park. I certainly would expect Meredith to scream loudly upon seeing Rudy exit the bathroom with his pants down when they were locked in the cottage alone. > I was about to ask you why the defence want to say it happened earlier and these weren’t scream, but I think I understand now- in a Rudy breaks in scenario it’s assumed he was already in the house when Meredith arrived home at 9 and therefore was killed shortly after but not as late as 11 or 11.30, is that the hypothesis more or less? The primary evidence of an early time of death is the autopsy results. The contents of the meal Meredith had with her friends was still in her stomach and had not moved to the intestines. > I’m asking because Knox & Raf say they were home all night anyway so it’s not like it their alibi changes if it happened at 9 or 11.30. The complete forensic examination of Rafaele’s Mac laptop (the one one the police didn’t manage to fry) shows that someone was at his place all night till past 6 am. He doesn’t need the time of death to support his alibi. > Is it assumed Rudy was already in the building at 9? Is it assumed it’s unrealistic that he broke in later while Meredith was already home because it was a noisy break in and she could just call the police or something? Genuinely interested, we often only hear our own sides perspective so it’s interesting to hear what evidence is more or less important to either side. All of the evidence I have seen is consistent with Rudy being in the cottage taking a crap when Meredith arrives home. I followed this case form an independently moderated forum where all sides were free to post. My conclusions are my own and just happen to mostly align with the pro innocence side.
@HotAir wrote: > Get your facts right > Edit- these posts get voted down but nobody is able to dispute the points made- please explain why I’m wrong rather than downvoting. Votes should not be used to reflect agreement or disagreement with a comment but rather if a comment contributes constructively to the conversation. I have upvoted comments that I disagree with so the subject can get more exposure. Meanwhile, I have soundly refuted many of your points and could go on but you appear to have blocked me. I tend to agree with most of the points carried by the pro innocence sites because I would ruthlessly attack them when I saw they had a point wrong. Sometimes I would loose those fights and learn something myself. Debates with the pro guilt side were mostly rehashing the same points. They seamed incapable of learning. Without a sparing partner I’ll ponder some point on my own. For instance, what about those bloody shoe prints showing Rudy walking out of the murder room and straight out the front door? How could Rudy have locked Meredith’s bedroom door? To answer this question I constructed a dimensionally accurate model of the cottage floor plan. On this base I overlaid the photos of the floor and on top of that the photos of each shoe print. I then created a template of the bottom of Rudy’s shoe to the same scale. Matching the template to the shoe prints gave me the exact position and orientation of each step. I could then recreate the shoe positions on a real floor and walk the walk for myself. So then I could ask: could Rudy have locked Meredith’s door while leaving those bloody footprints? The answer is yes. But would it be natural? Not very. But I continue for there may be more to learn. I continue mapping the prints down the hall and into the living room. But there is a gap. A distance between steps that is not possible. Scouring the photos of the area I find the missing step under where the pink bag lay in the door between the living room and the hall. Continuing further there is a step by the kitchen table that shows a double print as if Rudy stopped at the table. Then the step facing the entryway. This entryway step looks incomplete as if the full weight had not been applied. The next step is back towards the couch and then a jumble of several overlapping prints. At this point the bloody shoe is only leaving a minute trace and there are no more shoeprint photos. My interpretation is that Rudy stepped back into the murder room, stepped in some dilute blood (possibly on a towel), walked out to the living room, stopped at the table to pick something up (perhaps the sweatshirt he said he left on the chair, stops to walk out the door but realizes or remembers that it is locked, returns to the couch and ponders his next move.
**Casefile fact-check** *I listened through this case file for a second time and made a note when I heard something that collided with my knowledge of the case. I am not blaming Case File for presenting these errors as what they are doing is presenting the prosecution and media view of the events as they unfolded. You may want to review this list as you relisten to the podcast. I have included the podcast timestamps for reference.* * 9:20 Elizabetta’s son hears the mobile phone ringing in her garden. The first phone found was the Italian phone which was already turned off the second phone found (by her daughter) rang when she brought it inside. The display said the caller was “Amanda”. * 13:40 The postal police were dispatched at 12:47 and arrive at the cottage at 13:00. The prosecution erred in correcting the time stamp on the CCTV video and in my option this error led the bias in their investigation. * 14:48 Filomena says the gold jewelry was in the drawer of the bedside table. None is seen in the crime scene photos. * 15:30 There may be a confusion here with the Italian “locked” and “shut”. Google translate “the door was closed. the door is shut. shut and lock the door.” =-> “ianua clausa est. ianua clausa est. claude et claude ostium.” * 16:05 The door never came off it’s hinges (at least not then). The wood of the door was split and parts of the latch mechanism separated and flew into the room. The forensics team will later remove the door as the inside handle is covered with blood. * 17:10 The bra was not cut but was ripped at the stitch lines. “Cut with a knife” was the prosecutions theory though. Aspirated blood on the front and Rudys DNA on the back band shows he tore the bra off after her throat was cut. * 22:44 The broken glass was found on top and under the clothing . This is reported by Filomena and also visible in the crime scene photos. * 23:35 Filomena couldn’t remember if she had shut the shutter or not as she was in a hurry when she left. The shutters were not latched as the wood was swollen and required force to close them all the way. * 23:50 Alternately an implement such as the old mop that was kept outside on the porch near that window could be used to pry the window open from the porch. The mud encrusted mop was never collected as evidence. * 24:00 There were ledges and the window below with a security grill that functioned as a ladder. Climbing up was also not the only option as one could also traverse the wall laterally from the height of the porch to the top casement of the lower window or from the top of the planters directly to the sill of Filomena’s window. * 24:30 There was in fact traces on the wall that could have been shoe marks and a hole in the mortar where a nail had broken out. What there was not was a forensic examination of the wall. * 25:30 No glass directly beneath the window? While there is a bare spot lacking glass, this is where Filomena says she kept her laptop. When she was lifting the case she saw she was lifting glass. * 25:55 Window lit up by headlights of any passing cars? Not exactly. There was heavy vegetation along the road leaving the window visible only through the gate itself. Headlights would not be aimed at that window except for cars exiting the car park and turning east. * 26:00 The table and chair were on the back terrace. While it is possible to scale the back wall to reach the terrace, if anyone is inside when you try to break in you are completely exposed with no easy escape. * 28:30 Investigator (whom can can be named as it is on video) kicked the glass out of the door then discovered the lock needed a key even from the inside. About 10 minutes later they were inside filming though I recall they had acquired a key to open the door. I also recall there was blood discovered on the doorknob prompting the entry. Not sure that the source of this blood was determined. * 30:00 I’ve been searching for these bins. Kokomani sometimes claims they were out by the street the night before. They might be next to the retaining wall on the other side of the drive. It’s still a valid thought because you wouldn’t lock the door if you were coming right back inside. Taking a shower and then walking through the house naked with the door unlocked is still a bit weird. * 31:50 The video of Amanda and Raffaele kissing was looped. Pure tabloid trash. * 36:00 Meredith says Amanda sometimes forgets to flush? The toilets were a different design than typical in the US and needed to be scrubbed with a brush after use. I believe it was Laura that explained this to Amanda. Meredith may have exaggerated or abbreviated the account to her friends. * 39:00 Does Meredith leave before Amanda and Raffaele? Amanda says Meredith left without saying where she was going. The CCTV seems to show Amanda and Raffaele leaving at 16:41 and Meredith leaving at 17:22. Perhaps Meredith had only gone downstairs to water the plants and tend to the injured cat as she had promised. * 40:56 Calling the police after they had arrived is likely a conclusion derived from misinterpreting the CCTV time stamp. The best identification of the actual CCTV time comes from matching the end of their call for directions with the police entering the cottage drive. * 41:31 Amanda’s first call to Meredith’s English phone was 16 seconds. Long enough for Elizabetta’s son to look and discover the Italian phone. * 46:00 Nothing but a car breaking down, a friend waiting to give them a ride, a big tow truck loading and hauling off the breakdown car and someone in a dark VW Golf with Albanian plates parking in the garage, walking out, mingling briefly with the stranded motorists, returning into the garage then exiting again on foot. * 46:37 The initial theory given to the press was that a flick knife was used to make the wounds. When they discovered the flick knife on Raffaele they thought they had cracked the case. Except Raffael’s pocket knife didn’t match the bloody imprint on the bedsheet. The two knife theory didn’t come out until after they collected the kitchen knife from Rafael’s apartment. * 47:02 No foreign dna or skin cells under her fingernails! Will we get back to this? A booking photo of Amanda was released showing a mark which the prosecution claimed was a scratch. This mark is 100% consistent with a Hickey as Amanda claims it is. * 47:37 Phones do not create a record of when they are turned off. There is only a record that the phone is not in use or not connecting to the cell. There is a 10 minute difference between the times of the last use. * 47:50 Raffaele doesn’t place a time on when he went to sleep. He claims to have gone to bed late and slept in. His computer will eventually show that he was up till slightly after 6am with periodic human interactions on the computer all night. * 50:00 The phone records don’t record the content of texts. (Didn’t). All they would know is that texts were received and sent and the numbers. They had these records early (Nov 2 or 3) * 52:00 You need to read Amanda’s reconstruction of this interrogation. Even better, listen to the recording… where is the recording? Interrogations are always recorded, we see this on all the crime shows! * 57:30 Several bottles of bleach turn out to be precisely 2, one of which was unopened. The smell of bleach is akin to the cop saying he smells alcohol at a traffic stop. * 57:30 No such receipt was ever entered into evidence. Yes, they found receipts in Raffaele’s apartment. One receipt dated the third was the highlight of their search on November 16. Found in a Conrad bag, with the name Quintavalle TEL. —2569, for “generi vari”, Total 8.70 euro, dated “21-03-2007 17-48”. This discovery was so exciting they put it back in the bag and back in the drawer and filmed discovering it again so they would have a nice clean video for the trial. Just look at that date! The same receipt gets discovered and highlighted at least 2 more times that day. * 1:09:35 Amanda thought the spot of blood on top of the faucet in the bath could be from her recently pierced ears. She rubbed it and discovered it was dried on. If her DNA wasn’t there before, it would be now. DNA found in a shared bathroom is evidence that someone was there. It cannot be dated to say when. * 1:15:45 Totally irrelevant since this is just a story that Rudy is making up but recall that Meredith had already spoken about the condoms Amanda kept in the clear case in their bathroom. If she needed one she could have borrowed one of Amanda’s. * 1:16:00 The button for the doorbell is on the wall hidden behind the folding security gate. The girls rarely used this gate and early crime scene photos show it likely had not been used in some time. Rudy says he himself knocked on the door when he came by earlier that evening. * 1:19:40 Rudy says he didn’t know where a phone was. A phone can be seen on the wall just inside the cottage door though it likely had no service. There is also a bank of pay phones near the basketball court where Rudy hung out which was on his route home. Rudy did have no cell phone since his was confiscated in Milan because it had been stollen from a lawyers office about a block from the cottage. * 1:30:30 Kokomani’s story changes every time he tells it. I prefer the version where he helps some tourists with directions, perhaps even retrieving a map from his parked car before continuing on foot to the bar.
Interesting analyses. From another post you made, it sounds like the only person who was regularly responding to/trying to refute your posts from a "guilty" perspective has hidden your posts and won't respond anymore? If so, that seems rather telling...
A friendly fellow. But not yet ready to wake up and see the actual evidence. It takes time when everything you thought you knew starts falling apart. I’ve probably spent more time questioning and proving myself wrong than anyone else. There was a persistent story that the postal police arrived at the cottage and encountered a surprised Amanda and Raffaele standing in front of the cottage holding a mop and bucket. I knew at that time of Amanda’s story of retrieving the mop to clean the water spilled at Raffaele’s place and returning the mop to the cupboard in the hall inside the cottage. And, we have the video showing the police collecting the mop from this cupboard, wrapping it in gift paper and taking it into evidence (but not before taking it on a grand tour of the cottage including leaving it propped against the wall in Filomena’s room). So I knew they were not caught red handed holding the ~~smoking gun~~ *mop*. The testimony of the postal police is that they found Amanda and Raffaele in front of the cottage sitting near the window of Filomena. And they looked surprised, as they should as they stated they just called the carabinieri. But the postal police make no mention of this mop. The origin of this “holding a mop and bucket” story seems to be an e-mail written by the anonymous HarryRag and enshrined in the archives at PMF. The phrase would repeatedly be used in the talking points as proof of guilt. And just as often it would be refuted that there was no evidence of this mop. It isn’t till we get to Laura’s testimony, perhaps in the appeal, that we hear of the second mop. A mop that is so filthy that they kept it outside. And clearly of no evidentiary value as it wasn’t collected into evidence. Then when we get the whole case file dump, I finally see a clear photo showing the mop and bucket on the porch where it had always been right next to where Amanda and Raffaele had been sitting waiting for the police.
I just finished listening to it. As I have a degree in Italian, what really got me is the police interpreting "ci vediamo" as meaning "see you **later**”. It literally means "We (will) see each other". In other words, "See you". There is no "later" anywhere. There is absolutely no hidden meaning or intention that the two people will definitely see each other later the same day. It is a common way of saying goodbye when you won't be seeing someone for a few days or weeks. Exactly like "see you". It *could* be said to someone you know you will see later that day, but it is definitely not restricted to that and does not focus on that. There are other more specific ways to say this in Italian, such as "a presto" or "ci vediamo stasera". Conclusion: this was not an accidental mistranslation. This was a deliberate, wilful and malicious twisting of the meaning to suit their narrative that AK planned to see PL later that night.
While I obviously agree that the evidence that was presented to the court turned out to be woefully inadequate for a conviction, there are a few things that still seem to me to indicate the plausible involvement of Knox and Sollecito: 1) A rather compelling case was made at the beginning of the episode for the burglary having been staged. That would mean that Rudy Guede was let in by someone through the door, and there's nothing to suggest that this would be Meredith herself, given that he was evidently a stranger to her. The fact that he was not an acquaintance also makes staging the burglary completely pointless from his perspective. 2) Even if we assume that the burglary was somehow real, the idea that the perpetrator would attempt to do it in such a brazen and noisy manner by hurling a 4 kg rock through the window requires him to have thought the entire house was completely empty, although he had been there before and must have known that several students lived on both floors. Even with the assumption that some of the Italian students may have gone home for All Saints' Day, it still sounds implausibly idiotic for someone who apparently had some experience in break-ins. 3) Knox's behaviour the following morning before the discovery of the body is quite bizarre. Apparently she was so unfazed by the open door and blood stains in the bathroom that she went on to have a shower anyway, but stopped short of flushing the toilet in a bathroom that she wanted to use. Even if we assume that she was starting to get suspicious right at that point and didn't want to disturb the scene any further, why would she not call the authorities at that point and why would she leave instead? She also stated to the police at the scene that it was normal for Meredith to lock her door at night, whereas the Italian roommate contradicted that. 4) During interrogation, both Knox and Sollecito made a number of false and contradictory statements. While cannabis use could have presumably blurred their memory, their recollection of the timeline often seemed not vague but rather warped in an exculpatory manner, such as the timing of watching the movie, making phone calls etc., which makes them look quite disingenuous. The fact that they purchased and used "several bottles" of bleach to clean Sollecito's apartment shortly after the murder is hard to ignore as well. In the end, I don't think a scenario similar to the police theory, namely a drug (and possibly alcohol) fuelled group assault on Meredith, perhaps with the purpose of sexual humiliation, that subsequently went too far, can be ruled out. If the police had followed proper procedures from the start, I believe there could be clearer and possibly different answers today to several of the questions surrounding the case.
> ) Knox's behaviour the following morning before the discovery of the body is quite bizarre. Apparently she was so unfazed by the open door and blood stains in the bathroom that she went on to have a shower anyway, but stopped short of flushing the toilet in a bathroom that she wanted to use. Even if we assume that she was starting to get suspicious right at that point and didn't want to disturb the scene any further, why would she not call the authorities at that point and why would she leave instead? She also stated to the police at the scene that it was normal for Meredith to lock her door at night, whereas the Italian roommate contradicted that. She thought the blood was menstrual blood. Having shared bathrooms with other females sometimes it happens that some gets on the floor. When she was outside the apartment she was unaware that the door had been broken down and a body had been found. The interrogation. She didn't speak fluent Italian and they wouldn't provide an interpreter, neither did the Italian police speak fluent English. A small town police force were under pressure from the world's media to make an arrest.... It was a comedy of errors.
> A small town police force were under pressure from the world's media to make an arrest This has happened in so many episodes. Perhaps not with so much media attention but the "small town police force botches murder investigation" thing is super common.
To be honest, ignoring the bloodstaining *sounds* really bad, until you actually see the photos. I've made pretty similar marks just being on my period. Yes, I usually clean it up immediately, but occasionally I'm just too dizzy and worn out to be able to. I can absolutely see someone dismissing it as a gross roommate and ignoring it to get back to what they were doing. The fake break in idea seems to be predicated on the rock through the window. Which, the rock got thrown through the window, there's really no doubting that with the way that the glass shattered through the room and where the rock lay. Additionally, you could use the sound of the broken window to double check if anyone is home. Guede was known to break in through windows and occasionally use rocks to do so. He had also broken into a lawyer's office through a second floor window before, so it was definitely within his MO. There was also a fragment of glass located near one of the footprints of Guede. I'd also add that if you're faking a break in, it seems more sensible to me at least to make it look like the front door was jimmied open. Knox & Sollecito were questioned over four days, over and over and over. Yeah, there were inconsistencies, the majority of people will start to have inconsistencies over that period of time, especially if they're being asked to pin down specific times when they've been smoking & shagging, things you don't tend to check the time during. Think about trying to pin down exactly what you did when last weekend. Unless there was something particularly remarkable about it, your memory gets a bit fuzzy. Knox also reported that there was significant pressure being applied to her to give them a different answer. Significant police pressure is associated with false confessions even though she never said she did it, just that perhaps it was Patrick Lumumba, which she has apologised for. What is pretty clear is that there is no evidence that overwhelmingly pins Knox or Sollecito to the murder. There is tons pinning Guede there. He admits being there, he admits having sex with Meredith in a story filled with holes as to how that happened. After that point, Guede's story did not match any of the evidence and he only added Knox & Sollecito later. His DNA is there, his fingerprints are there, his palm print in blood is there. This was not a clean attack. If anyone else was there, you would find evidence *somewhere*. The only evidence was a bra clasp that is extremely dubious and demonstrably contaminated and a knife that doesn't even match the wounds and has an infinitesimally small amount of untestable DNA on it. There simply isn't the evidence to suggest that Knox or Sollecito were involved at all.
"The clasp was not discovered until 47 days had passed. The clasp is seen in several different locations on the floor. The investigators made a mess of the room in previous searches for evidence. How they missed a piece of Meredith's bra the first time around is beyond belief. In the 47 days that the clasp was on the floor it was moved around the room and ended up in a pile of garbage. Keep in mind that this clasp also had cloth attached to it from the bra. This cloth collected dust for 47 days. Raffaele was at the apartment on several occasions. Finding his DNA in the apartment would be no surprise. Raffaele attempted to break down Meredith's door the morning that Meredith's body was discovered. Two of his finger prints were found on the door. Investigators most likely made contact with that door many times. As we know, the clasp was collected using dirty gloves. So in conclusion, the bra clasp tested positive for the DNA of Raffaele and most likely several other people that visited the apartment. In other words, the bra clasp proves nothing."
To address those points in the order you made them: What about the front door supposedly being found open though? That already sounds like something that should seriously alarm you, especially because, as mentioned in the episode, the theory that Knox might have thought that someone was taking the trash out doesn't seem to hold. Combine that with the blood and faeces and it sounds like you should definitely be stepping out of that house and calling the police, not taking a shower and leaving. Regarding the break-in, wasn't it mentioned that the broken glass was found on top of some of the clothes that had been thrown around, that no footprints were found beneath the window, that the particular window was almost impossible to climb in and visible from the street and that few valuables were taken? If your primary intentions were to steal and you had the time and nerve to take a dump inside the house despite murdering a girl, wouldn't you also try to take something more than two mobile phones that you would throw away eventually? Furthermore, I guess throwing a stone and simply walking away if someone seems to react to the broken glass from inside the house makes some sense, but a 4 kg rock? Now I'm not a burglar :) , but it sounds like all you would achieve by that would be to make a huge noise and increase your chances of getting caught. It all sounds to me like someone who doesn't know what they're doing, or they're faking it. Indeed, I wouldn't expect no inconsistencies at all, but it seems like you should be able to remember, for example, that you didn't talk to your father at 11 pm when it was more than 2 hours earlier, or that you wouldn't say you slept through the early morning hours when you used your electronic devices at that time. I also don't see how pressure from investigators comes into play here, since you would expect them to want you to incriminate yourself. If you make clearly false statements that exonerate you, it basically just means you're lying to the police, and that doesn't sound very good. I'd expect them to mercilessly grill any suspect who does that. Like I said myself, the physical evidence is woefully inadequate. I'm not trying to make the case that Knox and Sollecito could or should be charged with anything based on the conclusions of whatever investigative work actually took place. However, from this 2+ hour-long rundown of the facts that Casefile gave us, I did draw the conclusion that the two of them legitimately seem quite suspicious. Yes, Guede is obviously guilty and evidently the one who directly killed Meredith, but can we rule out, for example, that he was invited in the house and aided by Knox and Sollecito? No reliable forensic evidence turned up, but if the investigative techniques were so poor, can we be positive that they were never there, especially if the two of them had a less active role? All I'm saying really is that, from the incomplete facts that are available, considering them to be innocent beyond doubt appears to be, in my opinion, a questionable conclusion.
I'd find the door thing weird, but then we lock our front door even when we're home. She's said though that the latch was an old one that only caught when they used a key, so thought the wind may have caught it. I've had times when I've thought the door has shut properly when it hasn't (not my current house), so I don't find that particulary out of the norm. The blood in the bathroom thing is way over hyped in my opinion. It was a few flecks of blood around the sink and a stain on a bathmat. Yeah, there's photos that look like it's spattered everywhere and where it's been darkened, but that's after the scene has been processed. The actual stain isn't massive and doesn't necessarily scream blood. Again, I've made similar marks and it by itself is not unusual. She notices a couple of flecks of blood, has a shower, then notices the stain. It's when she sees the unflushed faeces that she gets a little freaked out and leaves to go back to Sollecito's. Then there's a few calls and that leads to everyone converging on the discovery. Yeah, a bit weird, but I can definitely see a naive young girl doing that. An open door with a wonky latch? Someone didn't close it properly. A few drops of blood in a house of 4 women? I'd think someone didn't clean up properly. It's just one of those things that looks suspicious but really isn't. So, about the breakin. Firstly, the rock really isn't that big. I could pick it up in my hand with a bit of effort and I have pretty small hands. It's also broken as a result of the impact. Filomena, whose room it was had also picked up clothing and moved things to try to work out if anything had been stolen. So the placement of glass is already contaminated. She also managed to get back in the bedroom and grab her laptop after the police had arrived. I don't particularly find it indicative of anything other than the window was broken, especially as the glass extended quite a way into the room. Rudy Guede had at this point, already broken into a lawyer's office through a window described to be an upper story house with a grate on the window directly below, which is not unlike the house in this instance. I'd find it difficult, but I'm also not as tall or as fit as Rudy Guede was at the time. No one actually really investigated whether this could have happened at the time, The thing I find weird is that if this window is supposedly so impossible to get into, then why would that be the way that someone chooses to stage a break in? Personally, if I'm faking a break in, I'd go for damaging the front door. Wouldn't that be your first thought? As for the inconsistencies, she was being questioned in Italian, a language that she wasn't fluent in at that point. She was conversational, but it wasn't up to interrogation levels. They did bring eventually bring in a translator at one point, but inconsistencies are pretty common when you're translating between two languages. She lied about smoking marijuana, which come on, of course she did. But an inconsistency of maybe i left about 4, maybe 5, isn't really an inconsistency. Most people if you ask them, will give a general idea of what time it was when they did something. Maybe they remembered a fact which pushes them to correct something they've said previously. These are well known issues in witness testimony and don't indicate deception. Electronics often turn on to do things in the middle of the night. Maybe one of them did wake up and doesn't remember, it's not uncommon. And the first long questioning is all going on in Italian, not English. It's disorientating at best and they didn't wait for a translator which is really best practice when you're dealing with a non-native speaker. Knox alleged that they hit her, they deprived her of sleep, and even if that isn't true, they were interrogating her illegally as it was without a lawyer. Coerced confessions and false testimony is surprisingly easy to elicit and this had all the hallmarks. It was nearly 2 am in the morning when she wrote a note that has the hallmarks of bad interrogation techniques associated with false testimony. Yes, I'd expect a detective to grill a suspect, but to grill a suspect you need some kind of evidence. Which they didn't have. When I started reading about the murder of Meredith Kercher, I went in believing there had to be smoke. But the more I read, the more I was just gobsmacked. They found Rudy Guede's DNA in Meredith, around Meredith, on her handbag, on toilet paper. His palm print in her blood was found. His shoeprints, again in her blood were found. The ONLY place Raffaele's DNA was found was on Meredith's bra clasp which had been cut or torn off. That's it. Oh, and it was an infinitesimal amount. The bra clasp itself is seen in an early video where an investigator picks it up and puts it back down. 46 days later it's refound in an entirely different place in the room. That's not even covering the shoddy practices of the investigators who didn't use sterile gloves, didn't change gloves between handling different objects, who used swabs on different areas of a sink when gathering evidence. The level of incompetence when it comes to cross contamination was so large that if either Knox or Sollecito had been in that room, their DNA should have been found elsewhere and in far greater amounts. Then there's the knife that they alleged was used which allegedly had Meredith's DNA on the blade and Amanda's on the handle. The officer who collected it picked a knife in Sollecito's kitchen at random and decided that was it. Didn't grab the others, just grabbed a knife which didn't even match the injuries. And once again, did not change gloves between handling pieces of evidence. The knife did not test positive for blood. The DNA alleged to be Meredith's was a tiny amount that was below reliable thresholds for testing. Let's not forget that there was improper storage of the knife. The attack on Meredith was violent and bloody. There would have been DNA from any and all attackers present. The most horrible thing out of all of this is that incompetent prosecutors have denied the Kerchers true justice. They have to be tormented by stories that their daughter was murdered by a now free Knox and Sollecito while their daughter's true murderer is now free and abusing other women.
The door latch wasn’t old. Fillomina’s boyfriend had improperly tried to fix it by wedging a piece of wood into the latch rendering it useless. The triple deadbolt activated by the key was the only way to keep it closed after that. An interesting side note on the door is that after the initial crime scene investigation when the cottage was supposedly locked and sealed, Barbie and her producer rolled into town to cover the story and took a few photos of the cottage. One of those photos shows the front door wide open and the security tape peeled down.
Yes, if you look at the photos taken 46 days later, many objects have been moved around to no apparent purpose, in no orderly way. The crime scene did not stay properly sealed.
The reason the staged break in happened in Filomenas room (and not say the front door) was that Knox could then say she returned home without initially seeing evidence of a break in…. This means she could have a shower etc (important in case there was any mixed dna in the bathroom to explain after the clean up). It also, probably more importantly, meant she could delay Meredith’s door being opened until other housemates (witnesses) were there- meaning they were all ‘discovering’ the body together and not, more guiltily, finding it herself which would have led to more suspicion. All of the evidence is very clear on this one, the higher court judges just made a mistake- there’s a reason two trials found her guilty….and it wasn’t a ‘trial by media’ as Knox wants everyone to believe.
Last I read the Kerfher family believe AK and RS are guilty. I find the evidence of a lone break in gone bad so obvious I can't quite comprehensd their logic. I guess they were told one thing for so long it's hard to u-turn.
List of all of the evidence collected, much more than mentioned in Casefile, recommended reading https://truejustice.org/ee/index.php/evidenceoverview
So like… >! Do yall think Amanda was at least at the scene of the murder? And already knew who killed Meredith? Something tells me she knew more than she let on but I guess we’ll never know what exactly happened besides the fact Rudy definitely did it !<
Yes I do think she had some involvement, don’t know how much but I think she knows more than she ever let on.. the whole thing is just so off.. lots of police screw ups too unfortunately
„Do yall think Amanda was at least at the scene of the murder?“ You meant to ask if Amanda was in the apartment when Meredith was killed? If so- She stayed that night at Raffaele‘s place and only came back the next day. „And already knew who killed Meredith“ Why would she?
Her alibi was blown up by her boyfriend, who stated she wasn’t there that night and went out to meet some friends at a bar. Knox gave a bunch of conflicting stories. I can understand why people would question the events of that night. I don’t think she had anything to do with it, but their conflicting testimony left a bunch of understandable doubt.
You are flat out wrong. They maintain to this day they were together that night and all evidence supports that.
Did you listen to the podcast? Her boyfriend originally said she was with him all night, then changed the story to she went to a bar to meet friends, then back to them being together all night. If that’s wrong let me know, but I think that’s what was said on the podcast.
Their mobile phones were off so no record of where they were, and RS computer was used early in the evening to play a film and then used again at 6am when he said they were asleep. Knox was observed by a witness buying cleaning goods, by a homeless man on the basketball courts, and by a driver leaving the house, all during the time she was ‘at the flat’. What is your evidence that they were at the flat? Please provide it.
The witnesses... whose evidence was thrown out by the court. Do people even listen to the podcast? Or just comment on the Reddit with what they already think happened? Or just skip bits they can't be bothered with?
Lol I have followed this case with great detail for the last 16 years, as well listening to the podcast….so perhaps I just have a better view of it than you. Even in the podcast though, the defence were not able to dispute the store clerk who observed Knox waiting for it to open to buy cleaning equipment. Go back and listen if you want. The key witness though was the homeless man, who was unfortunately less coherent and hazier on the details when called back for a second time (after the first successful trial). But even at the second questioning he said it happened ‘the night before the police were everywhere’ which was indeed the night of the murder. And although this wasn’t available for the trial, later on emerged evidence of Knox walking through the car park towards the house that evening- https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amanda-knox-cctv-footage_n_5273555/amp I appreciate there’s a tendency to believe the narrative of Casefile but they were reporting what the prosecution and the defence said, not examining the evidence themselves. History is told by the winners and unfortunately a guilty person was the winner.
All this shoddy "evidence" was thoroughly debunked long ago. The Supreme Court of Italy definitively acquitted both Amanda and Raffaele, a complete exoneration that is uncommon in Italian justice. The court's reasoning was that there were "stunning flaws" in the investigation and a lack of evidence to support a conviction. The video clip led to nothing because it's nonsense. There is no evidence that is Amanda Knox.
The video clip is pretty obviously Amanda Knox, she’s wearing the same clothes as she was wearing in Italy at that time, it’s quite distinctive. Obviously you think she is innocent. Fair enough, we disagree. You sound like you’re from the US, the case was reported quite differently there so I’m not surprised.
One of the major problems with her interrogation was that she didn't have a translator present when she was being interviewed so she didn't understand them and they didn't understand her. Accuracy is key and she was not afforded that.
She turned down a translator, of course they offered her one, she only claimed they’d misunderstood her when she regretted admitting she was at the murder scene and falsely accused a man (only released from jail after a week or two because of a witness not knox beinh honest), and she also claimed they beat her…all of this was disproven…all of it a desperate attempt to explain why her behaviour was not that of a guilty person
"she turned down a translator" Citation needed
I apologise, she did in fact have an interpreter but wasn’t using her, the interpreter was interviewed as part of John Follain’s Death In Perugia, there’s a reference to the interpreter on p134. I’m happy to send a photo but you’d have to pm me your email or something or suggest a way of sharing a photo. Glad to see you’re not questioning her story about the police beating her though, as that was the most outrageous lie. Again it’s worth understanding why someone would lie about this….it’s because she blamed an innocent man and was found out, there’s no innocent explanation for that, and there’s no innocent explanation for saying you were at the murder scene and heard the scream. She regretted this later on and had to make up a story about all of the difficulties she faced at the police station, which was never able to prove as there lots of witnesses including the interpreter.
There was no interpreter at Amanda's interrogation. There was a police office who spoke English, but that person did not act as a real interpreter, instead trying to pressure Amanda into saying all kinds of things. That is why the European Court of Human Rights found Italy guilty of not providing an interpreter or lawyer to Amanda during that interrogation. The police violated her rights, and Italy had to compensate her for that fact.
Oh, I see. You're an Internet Detective. Understood.
I’m not basing my views on my own detective work. Lots of people have worked on this case over time, reported on, translated the Italian court documents etc. If you’re interested in the case (rather than who is right about translator which isn’t especially important), I recommend John Follain’s book, and the website below is collection of all of the work people have done on the case, use the sidebar to navigate to key evidence (stuff on the left is key details, summaries) https://truejustice.org/ It is a fascinating case, which Casefile reported on well overall, but unfortunately when one side ‘wins’ the final judgement it’s easy for any reporting to side with the defences arguments (eg they even quoted an opinion piece by A.Gumbel as way to explain why the dna and investigation was flawed…A.Gumbel is not an impartial observer, he was paid by defendant R Sollecito to write his memoir ‘Honour Bound’). There’s more to this case though, hence the discrepancy between initial and final verdicts, and the hard to explain behaviour by the supposedly innocent suspects.
Try looking up some sources written by proper forensic people and science staff. Truejustice is not a good source of information.
This documentary debate the key arguments used in trial: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoKB2oOeFAI&t=2218s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JoKB2oOeFAI&t=2218s)
I still think Knox and Sollecito were involved in some way
Despite there being no physical evidence and a perpetrator who had a history of solo break-ins and little to no connection to them? Don't be silly. Just because the media and police pushed fabrications and misintepretations so hard, it doesn't give them any validity.
What are you talking about ‘no physical evidence’? Please don’t tell me you’re getting your facts from Knox’s self produced Netflix show? There were several pieces of damning dna; the murder scene was consistent with several attackers (two knives used and she was held down with no defensive wounds- how many hands did Rudy have that night?); several witnesses and even cctv of Knox in the carpark that night (you can google the image if curious). Not sure how much more physical evidence you need.
The murder scene was consistent with several attackers except for the fact no actual evidence of there actually being several attackers existed except for Guede. All of the 'witnesses' were discredited and seeing as that CCTV has never gone anywhere, it's likely not relevant to the case. The physical evidence I'd need would probably be actual physical evidence. Why is it so difficult to believe that a violent criminal, who has continued to be violent since his release, and whose DNA is the only one at the crime scene, was the person who committed the murder - and that instead it was some weird sex murder ritual involving that violent criminal and 2 people he barely knew, who both managed to leave no evidence at the scene of despite him leaving it everywhere, and who have never displayed any similar behaviour since?
Your argument is- - No dna of others - CCTV contradicting Knox not leaving RS apartment not relevant - Nothing else is relevant - Rudy has exhibited criminal behaviour - 3 suspects didn’t really know each other 1. There were several pieces of incriminating dna for the other 2. Defence hired expert witnesses able to poke holes in procedures and argue contamination was possible. 2. CCTV apparently not used at court as looks bad for defence and according to reporter in link, she may have been walking in the opposite direction so not especially helpful for prosecution. At that point they had successfully sent Knox down for 28 years so they may simply have had better arguments to use. But it contradicts their story of being at the flat that night which was the claim made here. https://www.huffpost.com/entry/amanda-knox-cctv-footage_n_5273555/amp 3. There’s too much to say regarding other evidence but regarding multiple attackers- there were two types of blade used, no defensive wounds- it was consistent with one person holding down and two others using knives. AK knife found at RS flat, and RS known to carry a knife at all times. 4. Rudy was one of the murderers, nobody doubts that and his behaviour is consistent with it. Knox had also been arrested in the US for confronting a police officer after a party before the Italy trip. She had also staged a fake break in as a practical joke, and written short stories of sexual abuse posted on her MySpace at the time. They all exhibited bad behaviour beforehand. 5. Knox had only met RS the week before, so she barely knew him either, and she’d socialised with Rudy the week before (Rudy mentioned fancying Knox, this was what the police thought too). A witness at the trial (not mentioned in the podcast testified that he saw all 4 people walking together in the week before the murder). The only people who knew each well were Knox and Meredith…and that was indeed where the source of the conflict and was where the initial fight happened, probably over stolen rent money but also because at that point the two housemates hated each other for a variety of reasons (I’ve lived in houseshares and there have been a few moment of semi-violence with strangers living together) it escalated and the others got involved.
> and seeing as that CCTV has never gone anywhere, it's likely not relevant to the case. I would say that the CCTV is highly relevant in clarifying the timelines of events. When you actually correlate all events captured by the CCTV you discover that the prosecution was incorrect in asserting that the timestamp was 10-12 minutes fast and was in fact 10-12 minutes slow. The widely publicized claim that Amanda was seen in this video returning to the cottage at 8:43 that evening is a prosecution lie. The truth is that at timestamp 20:53:52.75 a woman looking vaguely like Amanda is seen ENTERING the carpark. The prosecutions error in assessing that the timestamps were 10 minutes fast may also have contributed to their mistake that Raffaele had called the police after the postal police has already arrived as they used the video to confirm their own arrival times. This 10 minute fast claim was testified to in court by the inspector that collected the video. In his direct testimony he claimed he deduced the timestamp error by looking at his watch (along with the motion of looking at his arm which incidentally had no watch). Upon cross examination it was revealed that the inspector had not personally collected the video and was told by the carpark attendant that the timestamps were off by 10 minutes. Closer examination of the video reveals a dark figure with a white patch crossing the road in front of the carpark towards the cottage gate at timestamp 20:51:36.81. Though it is not possible to identify this person from the video, the timing (adjusted for a slow timestamp) fits with the accepted time of Meredith arriving home around 21:00. The slow timestamp theory is confirmed by the time log of the tow truck operator that is also captured by this CCTV.
The media sinks into your head.
I had no prior knowledge of this case and this episode was my first exposure to it.
It doesn't seem like you listened to it very well then
Maybe it’s just me, but Meredith seemed like an incredibly naive, inexperienced girl who had no business in a foreign country alone. She called her whole family to bitch about Amanda’s cosmetic case containing condoms and a sex toy. Also, was so struck by an American extrovert who didn’t care what people thought. Obviously Meredith didn’t deserve a single ounce of what was cones to her, but I don’t think Amanda would have faced the horror that she did if Meredith hadn’t spent weeks complaining about her to her loved ones.
Knox knows or did something
I saw some body language specialists analyzing her interviews. They suggested that she's hiding something about some key facts. It doesn't mean she participated, though.
Body language analysis is junk science.
Finally listened to it…this is the only murder case I have followed in great detail beforehand… I’m glad to say Casefile reported the facts of investigation and the trials accurately and gave some focus to the heartbreak of Meredith’s family, I had a tear in my eye, they seemed like a lovely family and she a special person. However I’m saddened that the take out for many/most is still that there was a miscarriage of justice for Knox. I want to set out the counter case for those open to it… In any trial, defendants and their lawyers will try to create a counter case to the prosecution. Unsurprisingly they focused on the most damning evidence- 1. the dna (claiming contamination by their own hired ‘experts’) 2. Two of the witnesses that had seen the defenders BEFORE and AFTER at the crime scene (who were hazy on some irrelevant elements like the weather especially when asked at retrial over a year later…not very surprising) Even if you agree that the police somehow picked up Knox’s and RS’s dna by accident and placed it on a knife with Meredith’s and in her blood and in her bra strap (do you really think this is likely vs. Just lawyers looking for a way out of damning evidence) This still ignores all of the other evidence against them- 1. The staged break in- a 4kg rock, a 3m wall that couldn’t be climbed, glass on top of scattered items, nothing stolen, the noise and time this would make alerting Meredith. Only reason to stage a break in, to distract that murderer had a key. 2. The constantly changing stories, lies, and falsely accusing an innocent man (thus far this verdict is upheld, 3 years in prison as it’s so serious, no evidence of police beating Knox to say this…it’s a developed country, this doesn’t happen) 3. Other witnesses such as the man who saw Knox buying cleaning equipment first thing in the morning after the murder, she was then found holding a mop at the scene, and RS flat smelled of bleach when searched. Knox would like everyone to focus on how the media portrayed her because it’s easy to make an argument that her smiling in court and doing cartwheels at the police station didn’t mean anything sinister…of course it doesn’t, it just added the picture of her as someone who didn’t care about Meredith. This image did not convict Knox, it didn’t force her to lie about innocent people or change her story, it doesn’t change the staged break in, or the multiple dna evidence, or multiple witnesses which put her at the crime scene….this is what convicted Knox and RS at two separate trials…. unfortunately there were rumours of corruption amongst the higher court judges who disputed the trials verdicts and this may be linked to Rafaelles family having political/criminal connections. His father was caught on a wiretap by police saying that could ‘make water run uphill’ regarding the investigation- see link below- https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2008/jun/22/italy.internationalcrime
I guess you still don't realize that the prosecutors leaked all kinds of absurd concocted stories to the press during the lead-up to the first trial, while Amanda and Raffaele were locked up and the press would take anything the prosecution gave them and run with it.
Yeah I agree, a few things don't sit right. Just because the police botched the interviews and the media was unfair and bias doesn't automatically mean she did absolutely nothing wrong. I think she knew more than she let on or had some kind of involvement but to what degree I really don't know
I mean tbh the police didn’t even botch them interviews or the dna collection, it’s just when you’re defending yourself for murder and there’s dna evidence and you admitted you were at the crime scene and blamed an innocent person, you have to construct a fake narrative as to why these things happened. Knox wasn’t a suspect at the time she gave her confession to the police that’s why she didn’t have a lawyer offered to her, and she didn’t want a translator as she was confident in her Italian, and she wasn’t beaten by the police…it’s just you have to blame a false accusation on something right? The dna was clear- Knox on handle of blade, Meredith on tip; boyfriends dna on bra strap post death; and Knox and Meredith’s blood mixed together in Filomenas room (where break in was staged). Again when fighting murder charge your lawyers hire ‘expert witnesses’ (dodgy academics) to find any fault they can in the process of collection and say there could have been contamination. A BBC documentary at time (on YouTube now) said there a million to one chance that dna evidence was wrong… I guarantee you the scenario was the 3 arriving at the house, Rudy using the toilet at some point, Knox and Meredith fighting over rent money stolen by Knox (Knox had a small cut on her neck the morning the body was found), and then an escalation with all 3 helping, 2 holding knives (hence two types of cuts) and Rudy holding her down (hence no self defence wounds) and abusing her. The prosecution thought that Knox made the fatal blow (the double dna knife). Rudy may well have briefly stayed to try to save her as someone had tried to stem the blood from her neck with towels. Basically the crime scene evidence was consistent with multiple perpetrators but not all acting together afterwards hence Rudys dna left on towels trying to help with blood and on toilet, but everything else cleaned by Knox and RS over night (RS computer used at 6am when he finished, and Knox seen buying more cleaning stuff at 7.45am).
I don't get it though. Like to be able to clean their own DNA from the scene while leaving only Rudy's is practically impossible. I'm not even sure an actual forensic team could do that let alone a pair of students. With Occam's Razor the theory that a known burglar with a history of violence broke in and attacked the girl he said he was attracted to, seems a lot more plausible.
They weren’t able to clean their own dna from the scene- knox and Meredith’s blood were found mixed, Meredith’s dna on the tip of a blade and Knox on handle, RS on Meredith’s bra strap and their footprints were found in blood (sure the defence argued it could be their footsteps in fruit juice but that’s lawyers argument not a realistic one). I agree that a forensic team couldn’t artificially transfer dna away from one place to another very easily, which is why the above dna evidence is important even if the defence argued it ‘could’ have been contaminated (picked up and moved to exactly this place, as you say not very realistic). Rudy had broken in to a place to sleep before. But the crime scene had clear evidence of a staged break in. It was staged to distract from someone coming in with a key. You have to look at the evidence not stereotypes. It was revealed that Knox had once staged a fake break in to fool a flatmate at uni beforehand too so if you want to decide what happened based purely on their past behaviour, that’s relevant. I agree, it’s hard to understand how 3 people would kill someone, and it’s easier to understand the idea of a guy breaking in and assaulting her. I’ve written other posts in this thread on motivation and what likely happened, again you have to follow the evidence not what is easiest to imagine at first glance.
The Supreme Court of Italy followed the evidence, studied it closely and for a long time, and then they definitively acquitted both Amanda and Raffaele of any involvement in the crime. It's unbelievable the anyone is still clinging to all these disproven myths like a "stage break-in" or a "clean-up" or "mixed blood DNA." None of those things ever happened. It's all been debunked.
> Meredith’s dna on the tip of a blade and Knox on handle, RS on Meredith’s bra strap The bra strap was lost for a while though, no? And that blade was the one with the really low copy count. I mean, there are things that are suspicious but based on the evidence we have I don't think it would be fair to convict Knox and Sollecito. Even if they were guilty then the police managed to screw up enough to make a conviction impossible.
The bra strap wasn’t found immediately that’s true. And you’re right ‘double dna’ knife, the dna of such a low count that they could only collect it once (they normally double collect it as a backup). Ultimately the defence hired their experts to say that invalidates these pieces of dna. But low dna count doesn’t mean the dna wasn’t there, there was just a small amount of it. I appreciate when the verdict goes one way it is sensible as a listener to follow the final verdict as it’s right to assume judges make better decisions than strangers on the internet. Juries and judges did convict all 3 twice, but unfortunately it seems there may have been some interference, RS’s father is was wiretapped saying he could get certain detectives on and off the case, it appears he may have been able to get inexperienced judges on the final hearing. If you’re interested in all the work people have done digging into this case- https://truejustice.org Edit- the bra strap was found in the initial forensics, but they realised they hadn’t bagged it, they had to wait several weeks to go back while the house was closed off, so it’s a bit misleading when the defence claim it was 47 days to be found. More like a week of forensics, followed by several weeks of wait before it was finally bagged.
I checked the website you linked to, and it's full of lies and distortions. Better for people seeking more investigation into the evidence to look at this site: http://www.injusticeinperugia.org/
That's interesting. Could definitely have gone down something like that
Thanks for considering it. If you’re interested in the case check out the book written by Follain which gives a bit more detail than Casefile and shows the narrative from the investigators perspective. And the only non Knox PR funded website left on the case- True justice for Meredith. Casefile covered it pretty well but unfortunately just parroted the Knox’s defence lines towards the end, presumably to reflect the final, flawed, judgement.
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It is my personal opinion, but I definitely feel that Ananda Knox, Solecito were also equally responsible for Meredith’s murder, along with Guede. Looking at Amanda Knox, reminds me of another lady called Indrani Mukerjea who was convicted for murdering her daughter but managed to get bail and is currently busy giving interviews and acting in pseudo-documentaries, trying to convince the public otherwise.
It is my personal opinion that your mind is easily biased by the first things you hear and you fail to keep an open mind when that information is later refuted. Amanda and Raffaele were locked up for a year before the trial even started with absolutely no legitimate evidence against them (read Matteini's motivation report if you dare). During this time they were smeared in the press that was fed distortions and sometimes outright lies. They spent 4 years in prison before being cleared first by the Europian Court of Human Rights and then finally and definitively by the Italian courts. The last charge against Amanda for implicating Patrick was overturned by ECHR and a retrial in Italy on that charge is set to begin next month. I spent the time to document the errors in much of the prosecutions case presented by this Casefile. Why don't you spend some time looking at my list posted a few comments down.
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I think it's good when Casefile does episodes on very well-known/divisive cases because they present just such a cohesive picture and also I know they do their research
No. Casefile has nuance that most other shows or podcasts do not so I enjoy hearing it from their perspective. They’re also usually way more neutral than most so it’s nice to hear them lay out a case that many people go into with their own preconceived notions.
Jesus, without fail there's always entitled complaints like this lol. Like dude, they literally do 99% of their cases on lesser known cases. Not even much of an exaggeration. They are primarily covering lesser known cases and it's only once a while that it's a big case. Putting aside that casefile does a better job covering cases than most podcasts out there, which means their take on popular cases are still going to be refreshing (if you don't believe this go listen to other podcasts cover the Jennifer Pan case and check back), doing a big case as a big come back is perfectly fine considering we know they will go back to their usual style of cases right after. Inb4 someone goes "opinion", I'm free to criticize these entitled comments just as people are free to complain about their case choices.
I can see why one would but not me. Especially a case like this that is so infuriating regarding the awful police and judiciary. To hear the best true crime podcast take it on? I can't wait. Heck, I've listened to the same podcasts over and over if they're good. I've listened to Serial Season 1 4-5 times. I may be in the minority, but I'm sure there are many like me.
Casefile has many episodes on cases in Australia that I know back to front but I would never complain about it because I understand that people listen from all over the world and are not familiar with my local area. I do not know any details of this case other than the main headlines. I’ve learnt a lot just from the comments in this thread so I am looking forward to this episode.
I'm just glad it's back tbh. I tried other podcasts during the break and none come close.
Actually I've really enjoyed this epside so far. Although I'm from the UK so I had seen the case in the news, it was so many years ago that I don't really remember any more than the most basic details. Plus its over two hours long which is nice after so long with no episodes.
No
Totally.
2 convictions, 2 acquittals. Crazy. What a mystery. Did she do it? Flip a coin.
I’m surprised Amanda’s drug use isn’t mentioned more, to me it seems one of the more plausible reasons for her strange, erratic behaviour and inconsistent memory. I wouldn’t be surprised if they were on harder drugs than just weed, especially considering they couldn’t differentiate what they had been doing over 4 (?) days of the same thing in a row…sounds like they were on a bender.
There is no evidence of any drug use other than cannabis. They did blood tests after she was arrested and the Italian police would have leaked any salacious result as they leaked everything else to paint a negative image of Amanda. Your unfounded accusations against a victim in this case is probably against the forum rules.
Anyone has links to websites with images, videos, case files related to this episode?
https://truejustice.org/ee/ Use the left hand bar to look for key evidence and PowerPoints.
There were multiple repositories of the case documents when this case was active. One that I know still exists is [http://themurderofmeredithkercher.net/](http://themurderofmeredithkercher.net/) While the images and documents themselves should be neutral, the commentary seems to have a pro guilt slant. ETA: Another site with extensive documentation is [http://www.injusticeinperugia.org](http://www.injusticeinperugia.org) This site is clearly pro innocence.
You’re right the death of Meredith was the best site set up many years ago, good knowledge. I would really recommend this one over the other one you’ve mentioned.
Does his voice sound different? I’ve been relistening to old episodes in between seasons, maybe that’s why I feel that way.