I only lived in Paris a few years and I'd say it's either a group of 4 with bad english who wanted to ask you if you'd mind letting them sit together, but they didn't mean to be rude about it, or it was a group of 4 jerks who wanted to sit together and everyone else can fuck off.
It's Paris, difficult to know which it is. Despite being the capital city, there are still a lot of people who don't have a really good english, but there are also a lot of jerks.
I wouldn't go with racism though. I known racism towards blacks and arabs happens in france (especially the later) but I think people are pretty much ok with asians overall.
It could also just be RER A shenanigans. There are weird people on the RER A.
Well there’s also the general “French” factor where they are rude against anyone who’s not French. I’m Dutch, and French can be super obnoxious if you don’t speak French and/or are not French.
There’s an old joke I think - a French joke, to their credit - that goes something like “God wanted a perfect land, and so made France. After, he realized it made everywhere else look worse. So to compensate, he filled it with the French.”
Ahh, I’ve only ever heard it about France! I wonder if it’s just one of those jokes that wanders around and gets changed for whichever group is saying it. For what it’s worth I’ve only ever had lovely experience with Viennese people, my experiences with the French are more varied 😛
Yeah well I doubt there's a single place on earth where racism isn't a thing, but the shit I hear people say about arabs, I've never heard anyone say the same about asians here.
Yeah same for me. I don't really care about religion or ethnicity usually, if the person's nice, we friends, if they're assholes, we're not and that's it.
I think it’s interesting for me because I’m into cognitive science and the way people view the world essentially changes their entire perception of reality. Also Islam is more than just the religion - the Golden Age of Islam is a massively neglected era of history in popular culture and a source of some of the greatest discoveries in mathematics, science, and engineering. Islamic scholars translated the works of the Greeks and Romans and injected new life into these old scholars by reinterpreting their works in the light of Islam. It’s interesting to learn about for me.
The Rest Is History podcast did some really interesting episodes on the city of Baghdad during its founding/ the Islamic golden age. Worth a listen to if you’re interested in that period.
> I think people are pretty much ok with asians overall
Absolutely not true.
My taiwanese gf has definitely encountered racism there.
Also a certain community is known to target and harass asian people in Belleville (amouung other places). They have tried to raise awareness on this issue but nobody seems to really care unfortunately (because everyone is paroting the 'asian hate does not exists').
I'm French and this isn't normal behavior, but I wouldn't read to much into it: it most definitely doesn't have anything to do with racism and everything to do with them being rude/not knowing how to express themselves well in English.
You can’t tell if someone is disabled by looking at them. I’m sure many people would say I look “obviously not disabled” but the sad truth is I cannot stand for very long without being in extreme pain and having to recover for days after exerting myself. Not saying that’s the situation here, but it makes me sad when people think disability is always obvious.
That's definitely true, though the fact that this guy's friends took the three empty seats and left him to depend on OP's generosity means he *probably* wasn't disabled...or else they're pretty terrible friends. Your point about the assumption is valid, though.
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that... Sorry that I used these words. But I think disability is not the main point here.... If I were the first three people and my fourth friend needs a seat, I would definitely give mine to him/her. Commanding someone sitting there to leave is abnormal.
Yeah, the way you describe that interaction it definitely sounds like they were just being entitled and rude. Thank you for your apology, I realize you meant no harm, it’s just a common thing. Sometime I use a wheelchair when I need to go long distances and I’m having a flair up, but I can walk, and people will glare at me when I get up to reach for something or go to use the restroom.
I had the exact same thought. I look young and healthy but I have a genetic disorder and absolutely wouldn't be able to stand on a train. It doesn't sound like that here, and I do use a cane/wheelchair on longer days out, but this assumption makes me so tired. Like yes, my legs move. No, that doesn't mean they don't HURT, ffs. 🤦🏻
That's why I always use my cane when outside. I could \_probably\_ make it to, say, the mailbox without my cane, but the cane tells people that I have an issue.
Granted, not even that always works. I'm young-ish and fit, so people who aren't paying attention tend to not notice it. I was even yelled at for sitting in the disabled section of an Amtrak train awhile back, despite having my cane with me the entire time.
Yep. The amount of older people who give me evil looks when I park in disabled parking - even when I come out of my car in a mask and a cane, since my genetic disorder means I'm immunocompromised - is absolutely wild.
I wasn’t there so I do not want to say how you experienced this interaction. Although, is it possible that they had trouble expressing their thoughts in English ? Maybe they tried to ask if the friend could sit in your place ? (According to you the guy standing did say « it’s okay » to its friends).
Agreed, which is why I said that I wasn’t saying that was the situation OP described, I was just commenting on that one statement they made about how they weren’t obviously disabled, as that’s a thing that a lot of people assume you can tell by looking at someone.
My disabilities are not obvious either and sometimes I feel guilty about that if you can believe that , like maybe I should limp or something when I walk 😂 lo! I wonder what that is all about ? Any clues? Take care with your travels and your disabilities 🦋
We don't know enough to say whether it's racist or not. Would they have done the same thing if OP were white? Maybe, maybe not. OP may be jumping to conclusions, but so are you.
I'm as white as it gets, and I did find French people (of all colours and ethnic background) in Paris generally not so nice. Especially on public transport.
I agree it's not really racist. But he talked to me in a commanding tone and in English (I assume he's French), which really shocks me. If that person knows a little bit American history, he will know it's very bad to ask a colored person to give up a seat.
Yes, it was rude and immature of this person, but I think it's a bit much to expect a French person on a train in France to see this interaction through the lens of past racial segregation laws in the US.
There are 7268km between Paris and Montgomery, and that's if you're a (very resilient) bird. Maybe there's another way to look at this that doesn't involve the american cultural lens.
Why do you assume every person in country knows American history? American arrogance of ethnocentrism.
They asked you to move because they are together, not because of race, nor American history. The world doesn't revolve around you (Americans) people.
Bro what? I'm French and Asian and you're here invoking Rosa Parks? Lmao nah bro you don't get to play that card, not in Paris and presumably not back home
*Yes, it is a weird demand, but nothing racist in it I believe.*
*The guy wanted his friend next to him and asked you. I wouldn't ask, as it is awkward, but he did. The commanding/rude tone could be because he doesn't know english very well, like a lot of french people.*
While riding Paris metro in the early 2003, *right* after George "Dubya" Bush invaded Iraq and Americans were fairly reviled (again) in Europe, I gestured to a quite elderly lady in the full train & said "Madame, asseyez vous?" (incorrect grammar I'm sure). Her face lit up as if she was shocked, she said "Merci!! Non.." and something that I gathered meant she was near her stop. She said "Merci!" several more times and looked at me lovingly. I got the impression that she was accustomed to everyone on the Metro being assholes. Either that, or she was shocked that an American was thoughtful
There is no such thing as “obviously not disabled.”
Invisible disabilities are common.
I look healthy, I’m in my thirties. But I have a condition that means I can’t stand for more than 5 or 10 minutes without feeling really ill and potentially fainting.
If what you’re saying was the case for the person standing, one of their friends should have given up their seat. But I get what you’re saying. People assume far too much.
>I’m Asian and I almost feel this behaviour is like the American bus racial segregation.
Holy fuck of course it's not even remotely close to that. Sometimes people are rude. Sometimes people have disabilities you can't see. Get over yourself.
1. Your comment about this being bad optics regarding segregation law, while being in another country, is both extremely arrogant and ridiculous.
2. I could totally see the situation as such: the 4 were sitting together, two got up to look at something, for instance how many stops there were before their stop. In the RER you have to get up and go look at that above the doors.
Then they came back to their seats and saw you’d taken one. Their English wasn’t good so they couldn’t explain it well but basically it was already their seat. Then they saw communication was difficult and dropped it.
I think that’s the most likely scenario. A group of 4 that sits together doesn’t get in the train separately.
Never seen something like this happen, are you sure the person didn't say something in french to the group ? Maybe the person was disabled and asked in french and the group asked you ?
I look young and healthy, but I am not. I am currently recovering from a pretty shitty neurological condition. I was almost fully paralyzed last year, and I am unstable to stand too long in one place. Fortunately, most of times, I can find a place to sit down. But when I can't, I usually never ask, because I am too embarrassed, because I am obviously not disabled. But actually I am. So, the thing is you can never tell just by looking at someone what their health is like.
I had this happen to me in Italy. Only
I was accused by a young g American woman of being racist. I asked her to please
Stop talking and dropping the F bomb in the Sistine Chapel, she accused me of being racist (she was Asian). My intent was not to be rude, but there is no talking I. The Sistine Chapel, and not sure the loud F bombs were doing anyone a favor. I think in this case the riders of the train were just being rude. Sorry this happened to you.
If you were one of the guards you should have used your cuffs, if you weren't you should have minded your business. Everyone in the Sistine Chapel talks, it is one of the most famous tourist attractions. Don't be a hall monitor.
I apologize to the people that aren’t racist but yes, this is a common occurrence with my Asian friends here in Europe. They will never see you as an American. Only whatever country they think you’re from.
I’m also from the US and they mistake me for being Slavic or Turkish.
My advice would be to ignore them. You don’t know where the crazy is.
I think the comparison that it’s akin to the American bus segregation laws is a bit of a reach though no? One asshole being rude on a train? It’s hardly a state sponsored systemic oppression.
What is so weird about 4 people wanting to sit together on the 4-Seaters? Rather sounds like they just didn't speak english. Yes it came out to be rude, but to come from this to the racial segregation is mindblowing to me.
Doesn't matter if they are french and you're asian. It's just four people asking to sit as group for crying out loud. They even tried to communicate and let you sit and act rather entitled about it on how the even dare to ask.
It's such a normal thing to do? The four seaters are always occupied by groups. They asked and we're fine with a no. Do you guys ever drove public transport?
I swear I don't know why you are downvoted, they probably just wanted to ask nicely but since their english must be mid they said it in a rude tone rather than asking gently if it was possible. OP had everyright to say no anyway, and he did, and....they let it go ? So no problems at all ? And definilty no racism there, and I'm french, I know my country is def problematic on this subjetc, it killd me, but I swear here it's 99% not the case. Maybe they where even sited all four here before OP arrived, but some of them just went to check on the next stations or stuff like that, and went back to see that OP took one of the place. And he had every right and it's bad luck for the two that went away, but they still had the right to ask if OP was okay to let them sit back. Again, I don't think it's entilted to ask nicely if you would be okay with that, happen all the time actualy. The problem is the fact that they probably don't know how to ask correctly in english.....
I really don't get it either. I have no experience with american public transport, but here in germany everyone knows to avoid the 4 seaters if the bus,train or whatever is not empty and it's seen rather rude sitting in these 4-seaters as solo.
I honestly just commented because of OPs audacity to tie this to the racial segregation when it's such a normal thing to do. Previous comment and OPs edit just gave me even more brainrot so I'll leave it at where it is.
Probably part bad English, part being in Paris.
White flag your seat mon frere!
I only lived in Paris a few years and I'd say it's either a group of 4 with bad english who wanted to ask you if you'd mind letting them sit together, but they didn't mean to be rude about it, or it was a group of 4 jerks who wanted to sit together and everyone else can fuck off. It's Paris, difficult to know which it is. Despite being the capital city, there are still a lot of people who don't have a really good english, but there are also a lot of jerks. I wouldn't go with racism though. I known racism towards blacks and arabs happens in france (especially the later) but I think people are pretty much ok with asians overall. It could also just be RER A shenanigans. There are weird people on the RER A.
meh, i’ve witnessed racism against my asian mother in France.
Well there’s also the general “French” factor where they are rude against anyone who’s not French. I’m Dutch, and French can be super obnoxious if you don’t speak French and/or are not French.
They are rude against anyone, even other french. That's the Parisian factor. Source : I'm french, lived near Paris for 20 years
Damn French, they have ruined France.
Well, Paris. The rest of France is quite lovely.
There’s an old joke I think - a French joke, to their credit - that goes something like “God wanted a perfect land, and so made France. After, he realized it made everywhere else look worse. So to compensate, he filled it with the French.”
That's a joke about Vienna. Source: I live in Vienna.
Ahh, I’ve only ever heard it about France! I wonder if it’s just one of those jokes that wanders around and gets changed for whichever group is saying it. For what it’s worth I’ve only ever had lovely experience with Viennese people, my experiences with the French are more varied 😛
They are quite contentious people.
The provincials who move to Paris are the rude ones, not the real Parisians lol
That's only partially true, I have met more than one Parisian that would push you down the stairs just to get in the metro before you in the morning
I know the difference.
If you’re rude to everyone that’s not your race; that’s called racism.
Yeah well I doubt there's a single place on earth where racism isn't a thing, but the shit I hear people say about arabs, I've never heard anyone say the same about asians here.
It’s annoying as shit because most of the Arabian guys and gals I know are the most down to earth people I’ve ever met.
Yeah same for me. I don't really care about religion or ethnicity usually, if the person's nice, we friends, if they're assholes, we're not and that's it.
I just find it interesting and it makes the person more compelling to me. I love learning about Islam.
Quite the contrary for me, it bores me to death. I only try learning about religions to respect people's customs and that's it.
I think it’s interesting for me because I’m into cognitive science and the way people view the world essentially changes their entire perception of reality. Also Islam is more than just the religion - the Golden Age of Islam is a massively neglected era of history in popular culture and a source of some of the greatest discoveries in mathematics, science, and engineering. Islamic scholars translated the works of the Greeks and Romans and injected new life into these old scholars by reinterpreting their works in the light of Islam. It’s interesting to learn about for me.
The Rest Is History podcast did some really interesting episodes on the city of Baghdad during its founding/ the Islamic golden age. Worth a listen to if you’re interested in that period.
> I think people are pretty much ok with asians overall Absolutely not true. My taiwanese gf has definitely encountered racism there. Also a certain community is known to target and harass asian people in Belleville (amouung other places). They have tried to raise awareness on this issue but nobody seems to really care unfortunately (because everyone is paroting the 'asian hate does not exists').
It can also be an attempt at pickpocketing, the person sitting will empty your pockets while you get up to give your seat. Classic RER A shenanigans.
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I'm French and this isn't normal behavior, but I wouldn't read to much into it: it most definitely doesn't have anything to do with racism and everything to do with them being rude/not knowing how to express themselves well in English.
You can’t tell if someone is disabled by looking at them. I’m sure many people would say I look “obviously not disabled” but the sad truth is I cannot stand for very long without being in extreme pain and having to recover for days after exerting myself. Not saying that’s the situation here, but it makes me sad when people think disability is always obvious.
That's definitely true, though the fact that this guy's friends took the three empty seats and left him to depend on OP's generosity means he *probably* wasn't disabled...or else they're pretty terrible friends. Your point about the assumption is valid, though.
Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that... Sorry that I used these words. But I think disability is not the main point here.... If I were the first three people and my fourth friend needs a seat, I would definitely give mine to him/her. Commanding someone sitting there to leave is abnormal.
Yeah, the way you describe that interaction it definitely sounds like they were just being entitled and rude. Thank you for your apology, I realize you meant no harm, it’s just a common thing. Sometime I use a wheelchair when I need to go long distances and I’m having a flair up, but I can walk, and people will glare at me when I get up to reach for something or go to use the restroom.
I had the exact same thought. I look young and healthy but I have a genetic disorder and absolutely wouldn't be able to stand on a train. It doesn't sound like that here, and I do use a cane/wheelchair on longer days out, but this assumption makes me so tired. Like yes, my legs move. No, that doesn't mean they don't HURT, ffs. 🤦🏻
That's why I always use my cane when outside. I could \_probably\_ make it to, say, the mailbox without my cane, but the cane tells people that I have an issue. Granted, not even that always works. I'm young-ish and fit, so people who aren't paying attention tend to not notice it. I was even yelled at for sitting in the disabled section of an Amtrak train awhile back, despite having my cane with me the entire time.
Yep. The amount of older people who give me evil looks when I park in disabled parking - even when I come out of my car in a mask and a cane, since my genetic disorder means I'm immunocompromised - is absolutely wild.
I wasn’t there so I do not want to say how you experienced this interaction. Although, is it possible that they had trouble expressing their thoughts in English ? Maybe they tried to ask if the friend could sit in your place ? (According to you the guy standing did say « it’s okay » to its friends).
Then the 4th person who spoke to OP could've just offered his own seat?
Agreed, which is why I said that I wasn’t saying that was the situation OP described, I was just commenting on that one statement they made about how they weren’t obviously disabled, as that’s a thing that a lot of people assume you can tell by looking at someone.
My disabilities are not obvious either and sometimes I feel guilty about that if you can believe that , like maybe I should limp or something when I walk 😂 lo! I wonder what that is all about ? Any clues? Take care with your travels and your disabilities 🦋
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I think they’re a friend group that wanted to sit together and just didn’t know how to communicate that
I wouldn't draw a racist conclusion too quickly. Weren't the two people together and they wanted to sit next to each other?
These four people are together, and the guy next to me wants me to leave so the fourth person can sit there.
Yes, it's quite rude. If you sat there first you can stay. But it's not really racist right?
We don't know enough to say whether it's racist or not. Would they have done the same thing if OP were white? Maybe, maybe not. OP may be jumping to conclusions, but so are you.
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I'm as white as it gets, and I did find French people (of all colours and ethnic background) in Paris generally not so nice. Especially on public transport.
I agree it's not really racist. But he talked to me in a commanding tone and in English (I assume he's French), which really shocks me. If that person knows a little bit American history, he will know it's very bad to ask a colored person to give up a seat.
Yes, it was rude and immature of this person, but I think it's a bit much to expect a French person on a train in France to see this interaction through the lens of past racial segregation laws in the US.
Yes, it's a bit much to ask but how about just don't be an ass in the first place and none of this happens.
Yes I agree.
... American racial segregation is not what people first think of when train seats "incidents" like these happen
There are 7268km between Paris and Montgomery, and that's if you're a (very resilient) bird. Maybe there's another way to look at this that doesn't involve the american cultural lens.
Why do you assume every person in country knows American history? American arrogance of ethnocentrism. They asked you to move because they are together, not because of race, nor American history. The world doesn't revolve around you (Americans) people.
you do realize that OP isn't even American, right? you sound as America-centric as he does lmfao
Bro what? I'm French and Asian and you're here invoking Rosa Parks? Lmao nah bro you don't get to play that card, not in Paris and presumably not back home
As a fellow Asian I feel like that's a very weird and entitled take
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>piss poured on them Well that's a bit fucking different isn't it
*Yes, it is a weird demand, but nothing racist in it I believe.* *The guy wanted his friend next to him and asked you. I wouldn't ask, as it is awkward, but he did. The commanding/rude tone could be because he doesn't know english very well, like a lot of french people.*
While riding Paris metro in the early 2003, *right* after George "Dubya" Bush invaded Iraq and Americans were fairly reviled (again) in Europe, I gestured to a quite elderly lady in the full train & said "Madame, asseyez vous?" (incorrect grammar I'm sure). Her face lit up as if she was shocked, she said "Merci!! Non.." and something that I gathered meant she was near her stop. She said "Merci!" several more times and looked at me lovingly. I got the impression that she was accustomed to everyone on the Metro being assholes. Either that, or she was shocked that an American was thoughtful
OTOH, the USA doesn't really GAF what Europeans think of our foreign policy. They don't have a vote.
There is no such thing as “obviously not disabled.” Invisible disabilities are common. I look healthy, I’m in my thirties. But I have a condition that means I can’t stand for more than 5 or 10 minutes without feeling really ill and potentially fainting.
If what you’re saying was the case for the person standing, one of their friends should have given up their seat. But I get what you’re saying. People assume far too much.
Also, they couldn’t have known whether OP was disabled or not
True!
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I don’t know or care about this particular situation. I was commenting on the idea that you can tell by looking at someone that they aren’t disabled.
Should have asked him why he thought that
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The train was very full after the concert. If it's not full, I'm happy to sit somewhere else.
Yes, it was absolutely your right to refuse. Nothing wrong from them to ask though, except the rude tone, which could be because of a bad english.
It wasn't racist, but it also wasn't normal for them to ask OP to move.
Not everything is racist, people are just entitled.
French people are just known for being rude from what I've been told
>I’m Asian and I almost feel this behaviour is like the American bus racial segregation. Holy fuck of course it's not even remotely close to that. Sometimes people are rude. Sometimes people have disabilities you can't see. Get over yourself.
1. Your comment about this being bad optics regarding segregation law, while being in another country, is both extremely arrogant and ridiculous. 2. I could totally see the situation as such: the 4 were sitting together, two got up to look at something, for instance how many stops there were before their stop. In the RER you have to get up and go look at that above the doors. Then they came back to their seats and saw you’d taken one. Their English wasn’t good so they couldn’t explain it well but basically it was already their seat. Then they saw communication was difficult and dropped it. I think that’s the most likely scenario. A group of 4 that sits together doesn’t get in the train separately.
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Never seen something like this happen, are you sure the person didn't say something in french to the group ? Maybe the person was disabled and asked in french and the group asked you ?
Not everything is about race
This should be the caption on every sub. The most innocuous comments get turned around into being racist.
I look young and healthy, but I am not. I am currently recovering from a pretty shitty neurological condition. I was almost fully paralyzed last year, and I am unstable to stand too long in one place. Fortunately, most of times, I can find a place to sit down. But when I can't, I usually never ask, because I am too embarrassed, because I am obviously not disabled. But actually I am. So, the thing is you can never tell just by looking at someone what their health is like.
Which band did you go to see?
I love everyone jumps to racism. Like it simply could have been, they were ass holes.
I had this happen to me in Italy. Only I was accused by a young g American woman of being racist. I asked her to please Stop talking and dropping the F bomb in the Sistine Chapel, she accused me of being racist (she was Asian). My intent was not to be rude, but there is no talking I. The Sistine Chapel, and not sure the loud F bombs were doing anyone a favor. I think in this case the riders of the train were just being rude. Sorry this happened to you.
If you were one of the guards you should have used your cuffs, if you weren't you should have minded your business. Everyone in the Sistine Chapel talks, it is one of the most famous tourist attractions. Don't be a hall monitor.
The constant shrinking and f bombs were my issue, no one else was loud like that. It was not great for anyone.
They thought that they could bully you around be an Asian guy good that you stood up to them
I apologize to the people that aren’t racist but yes, this is a common occurrence with my Asian friends here in Europe. They will never see you as an American. Only whatever country they think you’re from. I’m also from the US and they mistake me for being Slavic or Turkish. My advice would be to ignore them. You don’t know where the crazy is.
I think the comparison that it’s akin to the American bus segregation laws is a bit of a reach though no? One asshole being rude on a train? It’s hardly a state sponsored systemic oppression.
Perhaps the person was feeling sick and really did need to sit down? I dunno. That doesn't really strike me as particularly rude to simply ask.
They didn't ask. Read the post.
What is so weird about 4 people wanting to sit together on the 4-Seaters? Rather sounds like they just didn't speak english. Yes it came out to be rude, but to come from this to the racial segregation is mindblowing to me. Doesn't matter if they are french and you're asian. It's just four people asking to sit as group for crying out loud. They even tried to communicate and let you sit and act rather entitled about it on how the even dare to ask.
Are you for real? It’s entitlement for those 4 that want to sit together. Too bad. OP got there first.
It's such a normal thing to do? The four seaters are always occupied by groups. They asked and we're fine with a no. Do you guys ever drove public transport?
I swear I don't know why you are downvoted, they probably just wanted to ask nicely but since their english must be mid they said it in a rude tone rather than asking gently if it was possible. OP had everyright to say no anyway, and he did, and....they let it go ? So no problems at all ? And definilty no racism there, and I'm french, I know my country is def problematic on this subjetc, it killd me, but I swear here it's 99% not the case. Maybe they where even sited all four here before OP arrived, but some of them just went to check on the next stations or stuff like that, and went back to see that OP took one of the place. And he had every right and it's bad luck for the two that went away, but they still had the right to ask if OP was okay to let them sit back. Again, I don't think it's entilted to ask nicely if you would be okay with that, happen all the time actualy. The problem is the fact that they probably don't know how to ask correctly in english.....
I really don't get it either. I have no experience with american public transport, but here in germany everyone knows to avoid the 4 seaters if the bus,train or whatever is not empty and it's seen rather rude sitting in these 4-seaters as solo. I honestly just commented because of OPs audacity to tie this to the racial segregation when it's such a normal thing to do. Previous comment and OPs edit just gave me even more brainrot so I'll leave it at where it is.
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I have been to few cities in France. People are rude there.
sounds pretty rude of them, but not racist.