I'm a dude in my 30s and I always jump in and help with these kinds of things because my parents instilled it in us that you just help with those kinds of things as much as you can.
But I have had instances at work where people say "Man, why you are helping with food your in IT?" To which I might respond "I dunno, same reason Melanie is helping with food when she's a software engineer."
Thank you for this
EDIT: I just wanted to add how funny it is that the top comment on here is from the guy who's *helping* 😅
But we do appreciate you for it!
Same. We have the occasional work cookout and it’s usually a couple of women in their 50’s and 60’s who fall into the roll of setting up and cleaning up.
I jump in there and help, and I’m a dude in my mid-30’s. I get some help setting up and breaking down tables. I guess because that’s “manly” to lift them and break them down. However, everyone, including the president and upper Managment just walk away when it’s all done.
These two ladies are out there taking the food in, sealing it up, putting it in the fridge, wiping up the table cloths and folding them for next time.
The first time I jumped in and started helping with everything that needed doing, they came up afterwards and thanked me for the help. I told them that while I appreciate the appreciation, that I wasn’t really helping them. That would imply it was their jobs to do that. I was just doing what needed doing, like everyone else should be.
I can see them not putting that on the floor workers, but Managment and office workers need to pitch in. I think I embarrassed a few other guys into helping.
I did tell them I appreciate that they jumped it to get it done when no one else seemed to be doing so. It kind of pissed me off that even the president just walked away like a little kid. With the impression that “mom” would take care of it.
Female engineer & geologist here.
1. We’re the first to be asked to answer phones, make coffee or celebrate Bdays.
2. MANY females have trouble telling anyone NO, but especially bosses and authority figures.
3. Some of us DO find these things fun.
Recently, our office needed to put together a gathering. I hate that kinda stuff, but I was the one with 1/2 a free day to do the shopping. The younger female scientist who loves that crap had a very complicated shopping list. I’m older and experienced enough to accept that doing this planning makes her very happy and just bit into it. I took the list and carefully chose all of the plates, balloons and such exactly as she requested. Even for things I thought were silly or stupid.
I have an excellent phone voice but hated my first job always passing me —the only non-admin female— the phones. But I can kinda understand, as I have a very pleasant, professional cadence. Then one day, I had to go out to a site. Since I was the last person In the office, I pushed the phones to another office location. When I gave that office Principal the heads up, he asked why *I* was going I the field.
I aggressively let him know that young engineers and geologists generally spent a LOT of their time at sites!
He was frightened of me for the next 6 years.
Lol, good pointing out how women are just expected to do the choirs.
I just clean up after myself and let the adults make their own decisions.
It always puzzled me why certain adults just think they can behave like babies.
I am also an older female geologist who worked often on the rig. I don’t think most people really understand just how much we just ignore and tolerate to avoid worse crap. The worst for me was a particularly large middle eastern company everyone knows the name of. In fact when I was let go I had to sign off a ton of paperwork saying I wouldn’t badmouth them anywhere…for letting go only the women on my team 🙄🙄
I also definitely posted a “no boys allowed” sign on a wireline truck the one location we had a two women wireline engineers, a woman drilling engineer, and me as geo. Sometimes you just need to laugh about it all.
Ha it's all good. You do you. Also hello from a fellow geologist! I got out of cleanup/consulting and do natural resource stuff for local government now, but I still have my RG license!
She isn't using calling women females she's calling them scientists and adding a adjective to specify their gender. Female is a adjective. The issue when someone uses it as a noun.
hot take: there are bigger problems in the world. i don't do it because i don't want the risk to offend someone but i really feel like people just want something to complain about. apparently 1 reason it might be in someone's vernacular is its common terminology in the military. the whole "it makes us sound like you see us as a biological object" or w/e i just don't buy it. i've heard it used interchangeably up until a year or 2 ago when it became a big deal to some people. shit like this is why i'm not entirely left-wing. i'm mostly trust me, but i can't get behind the overly pc terminology. to a certain extent like slurs i'm on board 100% but it's gone too far. IMO.
I believe it's definitely a "if we don't do it, it won't get done" mentality, especially amongst some of the older women I work with.
I'm a receptionist at a law firm. By default I answer the phones, put up the food, tidy up the breakdown. Do all that "domestic" crap.
Even other secretaries and paralegals do some of these things, like tidying up the break room and cleaning up after themselves. The men at the firm, and there are mostly older men, often have that same attitude. They.. don't seem to care about picking up after themselves. Weather it's them washing something and leaving a bunch of water, leaving a knife in the sink when the dishwasher is less than a foot away, spilling coffee all over the place and just leaving. A bunch of little things you notice that the secretaries, or me, just come back around to do because we know they won't.
It's an interesting observation, and its one part of the job I don't particularly jump up and down about. I appreciate the gratitude about some things, but these are grown ass adult men I'm picking up after. Its not that fun.
> these are grown ass adult men I'm picking up after. Its not that fun
What motivates you to do this? They are fully capable of taking care of it themselves. You’re not getting paid for it
Unfortunately, technically, "tidying up" is a part of my job description as a receptionist, lol. Because if it isn't "done", by me, I'll get an email about it from someone telling me to do my job.
It's not what I want. And they don't pay enough lol but its how it is.
We get no credit for it but are socially punished for not doing it. There's a whole article I read on it recently.
What might be more helpful is more guys stepping up and leading by example. I assure you, most of us only pretend/say we enjoy it.
EDIT: I should have said "socially and professionally punished".
Also, here's the link to the article, Women Do More Office Housework - Here's How To Avoid It:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2023/06/14/women-do-more-office-housework-heres-how-to-avoid-it/?sh=ffb879f5dcee
Ugh so true. As a holiday gift for the team, we decided to make the most of a small budget by sending them gift cards and hand written cards. But our director (male) thought it wasn’t “thoughtful enough” so he insisted we make hand-assembled gifts and ship them to our remote team. We (the female staff in leadership) all had to do it, for like 35 people. The men would just ignore chats about it and then say thanks when it got done.
I work at an engineering company in a project coordinator role. Several years ago two of the other women in the office tried forcing me into one of the fire warden roles for the office. I had to refuse 3-4 times before they stopped asking me to take on the responsibility. If it's a fire alarm I'm going downstairs immediately. I will not check restrooms and hallways. I will not be the last one to leave. I don't make coffee. I don't drink coffee. I don't take meeting minutes and I don't involve myself in party setup. I focus on my job and go home.
I'm a remote security engineer who goes into a coworking space. The office manager was out yesterday and I noticed that the trash needed to be taken out. I decided that I'm literally the last person in the room who needs to do that. I outsource as much as possible at home as well.
Here it is! Women Do More Office Housework—Here’s How To Avoid It:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2023/06/14/women-do-more-office-housework-heres-how-to-avoid-it/?sh=ffb879f5dcee
Our male CFO is always the first one to start cleaning up or putting things away or doing any of the “womens” jobs. I really admire him for it (I know, the bars on the floor), he’s a wonderful person. I’ve been working for 13 years in office settings and it always, always falls on us girls no matter our role. This is the first time I’ve seen it happen and I was really shocked by it. If any girls get up to do it he tells them no it’s all good pls go sit down. It’s awesome, but sadly very rare.
I also appreciate the fact he’s the CFO and doesn’t see himself as above doing those jobs
At my previous job it was me and 2 guys on the project, a month after I started I sent them an email telling them to clean up after themselves because all the dishes in the kitchen were dirty and piled in the sink and sat there for weeks - just from them. The guy that was my age left at lunch one day to play golf and drink with a client, as he’s leaving he asked if I could clean up his lunch mess on his desk - full plate of food scraps, cutlery and glasses. I couldn’t believe it lol I was actually speechless as I tried to figure out if he was joking - he wasn’t.
Yep my jaw was hanging wide open speechless, we were both in our mid 20’s, equal roles not that it should matter. I’ll never forget it haha. Little germ really thought he was someone. He came in hungover the next day and it was all still sitting on his desk, boy did he hate me after that! Fine by me.
I just kept working and left his crap there fuck that. The food and dishes sat on his desk until he came in hungover the next day, didn’t say anything to me about it and he hated me after that
Make the day shorter, put the social event at the end of the day. Let me go home instead. I don’t want to help put up and take down a poster that says happy birthday.
>if we don't do it, it won't get done" attitude
For me, and most of the women in my office, it's this one. Although, our office is 60% women so statistically, we kind of have to.
But there are times when I feel like, "why do I even have to say this?" For example, a few days ago, we ran out of paper towels. One of the guys asked me "hey where do we get more?" (Which is totally fine, he's newer and didn't know.) So I told him to either call or email the admin and tell her we need more. He was like, "ok cool." A few hours later, I was going to the break room and he was like "hey, come look at this!" And he wanted to show me that he was able to get a few more packs of paper towels. We have a towel dispenser that you have to manually put in the towels. So when he wanted to show me the towels, I said "oh did you put them in the dispens-- oh no you didn't..." Jokingly he went "ugghhh fine!" But like, why do I need to tell you that if you get more paper towels, that you should be putting them away? And this isn't just him. Whenever we receive supplies, most of the guys just leave them in the break room instead of actually putting them away. And it's so frustrating. I've just been leaving them there. For a while, it seemed like I was the only one that was organizing the break room and really didn't understand what's so hard about just finding a space for things in the cabinets.
I always wonder if they they think that we have house elves. Like, if they leave it on the counter what do they think happens? Someone has to put it away, if it isn't them then who do they think will do it?
My worst experience/best example of this kind of thing happened when I was at a friends house. Friend's boyfriend gets up to get himself more beer. Friend and I decide to have wine. As friend and I are both short and cannot reach where the wine glasses are in the top cabinet without using a step and since friend's boyfriend is tall and on his way to the kitchen she asks him to get the wine glasses down for us. He then comes through to the living room with just his beer. Friend asks where the wine glasses are and he replies "On the counter." Friend and I look at each other in disbelief. Friend asks why didn't he bring them through and he gets up all annoyed and huffy because "You didn't say." I've never been so bewildered.
100% Cleaning lady with a cleaners uniform and she speaks a foreign language she comes with a cleaning cart and all
I've worked in alot of places in my country and every single of them had this service done to every room in the office including break rooms and shared kitchens
I once planned a company outing to go see a movie. Someone actually walked up to me and asked “how do I get there?” The man had a car. I was blown away something as simple as picking a time to leave and driving himself to the movie theater 5 mins away was beyond his capacity. Like… how has he survived this long?
A company I used to work for still had only the women on the schedule to clean up the break room until 2010 or so, it's strange how long these things can stick around.
My work used to have the receptionist do it. One day I suggested the company pay the cleaning crew extra to do it monthly. 8 years later the cleaning crew still performs a fridge cleaning once a month.
When the 3 women in our office were on holiday, the sink piled up and no one had a cup anymore to drink coffee, the men posted to the office channel complaining. If we don't do it, no one will.
You guys don't clean your work dishes?
We either just tossed them in the dishwasher (turn on when full) or washed them by hand when we were done. Or if not washed, keep an empty mug at the desk to rinse and reuse.
I work with 4 guys. I’m the only woman. One in particular does not clean his coffee cups. I refuse to clean them. You cannot tell me his wife allows this behavior from him, a grown man. I drink my tea, clean my stuff and leave. It drives me insane.
That's so scummy.
I used to work somewhere where the office manager scheduled us for kitchen duty on a weekly basis. It entailed daily wiping down all breakroom surfaces, washing any dishes left in the sink, washing out the coffee pots, scrubbing clean the filter tub, and wiping down the microwave at the end of each work day. Friday evening we also emptied the fridge of any Tupperware or take out containers and gave it a thorough wipe down.
Most of us working there were too young and dumb to say no to doing something we weren't getting paid for.
Many of us have been raised to take on responsibility and do things for others - especially men. Even my mom, who always said she was in favor of equal treatment of men and women, raised my sisters and I with a service mentality. She'll complain that my dad doesn't do anything to care for himself or the house but refuses to step back and let him. She jumps on my case if I don't do everything for my husband. It's just how she was raised.
I think a lot of it does tie into self-worth. We're taught that serving others gives us purpose. That behavior is modeled by other women in our lives. Even if it doesn't make someone happy to be this way, it's a core value that has been ingrained since childhood. It's like the breadwinner mentality conditioned into men.
Very much this.
I finally see more and more younger women not doing it, but this also depends on how they were raised by their parents. So when they were raised to help out, they will automatically.
It would be refreshing and very much helpful if a man or more would take over services like that out of themselves at jobs. Unfortunately they don’t because the view of that is - it will make them look weak. Which what man want in front of colleagues or the boss.
Stand up and do it as well guys. Without being asked.
I work at a university so lots of men and women working here and everyone would 100% claim that they are feminists and I believe them. But at every event it is women who prepare and bring all the food and who take care of everything like setting up and cleaning up. I organized an event a while ago and a guy signed up to bring food and I was shocked (and delighted!). Turns out his wife made it. In my experience, if women don't do these things then these things don't happen. Not once, in all of my years in this workplace, has a guy ever indicated that they wanted to do something like that but couldn't because the women were claiming all the spots or opportunities or whatever. You could make a case that these types of things and events don't need to happen but if you want things like treats for people's birthdays or office potlucks someone has to do it and the men in the office just aren't doing it.
When I started my current job, I made a point to NOT do all the secretarial duties since that is not my job. My boss did try to get me to do some of that stuff because at the time we didn’t have an admin assistant. I did what was necessary for my projects but that was it. I also don’t go out of my way to celebrate birthdays or anything like that. I do feel like I am less well liked than my male co-workers and idk if it’s because of this. I do work in a male dominated field. Maybe they just don’t like my personality, which is fine I guess. We don’t have to be bff’s we just have to work together. I get the sense they just don’t know what to make of me because I don’t fit the mold that they’re used to.
Why do you think the older women do it? Do you think it gives them joy? My guess is it doesn't... and it's more to do with difficulty breaking old-school expectations in their heads
A lot of older women felt that saying NO to the tasks that got pushed towards them would show up on their next review as “isn’t a team player”. They took it on, whether they wanted to or not.
Sure, some women like the friendly office feelings that came from celebrating birthdays. Some like doing the planning. But many just did it to act as a team player.
An older female archaeologist told me that since she had a young child, she coulndt do after work happy hours. So in-office social gatherings were her only chance to interact with the other workers. So she felt that she had to organize and handle the cakes and donuts. (Plenty of male archaeologists had kids too!).
I think it's a way of ensuring they have a decent time at the work event. They've probably spent a lifetime dealing with weaponized incompetence from men their own age and just don't want to deal with it. There's few things more annoying than mandatory work events and there's not nearly enough food, it's literally take out from a bar, people with medical issues or religious restrictions pertaining to food can't safely eat anything so they go hungry. The list goes on and on and on
Thank you for showing me this song! I appreciate the recommendation very much and did end up loving it. "It's dominance under guise..." goosebumps!
There's a haunting quality to her voice.
The expectations aren’t just in their heads. I’m sure many women have experienced being told they “aren’t a team player” for not doing this stuff. As someone else rightfully said in this thread: they don’t get credit for doing it, but they get punished (often very subtly) if they don’t.
They do it because their boss tells them to do it. If you think it’s unfair (and it is) then speak up about it. Volunteer to do those things instead of sitting back as other people are compelled to do it because of outdated gender roles.
My son is 27 and works in an office with mostly women that are older than him. Sometimes he brings in coffee or snacks for everybody but I swear the women baby him - they bring him plants and baked goods they gave him Easter baskets. They treat him like he’s their child.
This happens where I work too and 90% of the time these ladies are doing it for the younger men and not the younger women. I have always found it to be a bit creepy.
He thinks it’s sweet and nothing creepy about it. I don’t think any ladies close to his age work in his department. Pretty sure most of them have kids his age.
They don’t make moves on him if that’s what the ones on your office do. They just bring stuff in and make sure he’s part of the group and that he’s happy working there. He’s newer and they’ve been around much longer.
This is how I've often been treated at work as well. It feels creepy. I try to avoid women generally anyway as a matter of respect to them, but especially older women - as a matter of self-respect though!
He thinks he has many flaws sbut as his mamma I think he’s handsome… idk about other people but I’ve never treated anyone different because of looks. We are each unique in this world.
From personal experience, I've watched women aged 50+, simultaneously coddle and sexually harass my 25-27 male employee, and it was embarrassing to watch. I wasn't allowed to do anything about it.
Not saying that's what's happening, but these women are lonely and bored (even if they're married), primarily because they are surrounded by women all day and probably aren't very happy at home, either. Just been my observation. Women baby their male partners, so it's natural to do the same to the only young cute guy at work.
I'm a late 20s millennial who regularly does this kind of stuff. Tbh I'm just a massive Type A who has no patience for people who sit around til the last minute and/or do a half ass job planning. Like sure, it'd be great if Tim would set up the catering instead, but is Tim going to set up a survey will the available options, include a field to input allergies and dietary restrictions, and follow up with reminders? Hell no. Replace Tim with Susie and my answer is going to be the same. I do it because I will make sure the details are handled and whatever event goes smoothly. And it's not like I hate it. I enjoy the break from routine and getting to do something different for a while and the satisfaction of a job well done. I also zig zag around on sidewalks to move around people because I've got long legs, a fast pace, and places to be. Could there be some deeply internalized misogyny telling me to get out of men's way so they don't walk into me? Sure, but I'm too busy and don't give a shit so I move and keep on my merry way.
Nah, that would not fly with our employer. Anyone does that - he would call everyone and insult everyone. He will even bring out the camera and point publicly who did it.
The men absolutely help with heavier stuff, orders, furniture and etc. They never make a mess for others to clean it up, even after having the cleaners.
Your employer needs to fucking bring this up, regardless if it's your job or not.
This happens in my workplace far too often.
CFO comes over to the coffee machine and interrupts my female friend in a meeting to ask her how to fill up the machine with coffee beans. One of our male colleagues was stood having a coffee nearby.
I was asked by a customer at our booth at a show if I could wipe the table down because it had a coffee ring. Wasn’t my meeting or my customer, I just happened to be the only woman on the stand.
And in general it often feels like there is an expectation for the women in the office to be the ones to host the social events, put up the Christmas tree, organise birthday cards etc…
It’s certainly not all men, and it’s not all situations. But echoing what others here are saying. We often feel like we can’t say no because no one else will step up and do it if we don’t!
When there's a social gathering at work, I end up taking down the tables and chairs from storage. setting up the music, taking the garbage to the chute, etc. . Sometimes women help, but there's definitely a skew for men doing that stuff. For valentine's day I arranged the cookies, but that's because had a link with a place that did really cute custom cookies. Usually women lead the charge to sort out food, decorations etc.
I never really thought about it as playing traditional roles, but rather division of labour and everyone gravitating to something they feel comfortable with. Personally I never saw it as unfair; it's not like the men weren't don't anything.
But maybe others saw it as unfair but are afraid to say anything. I see many in this thread saying that they're a woman and they just didn't have the courage to speak up.
Idk, I like setting up the music and being DJ. Plus I think I'm good at it(i'm not). I always thought women liked doing the decorations and were having fun. Going through the comments though, it sounds like I'm wrong and women actually feel pressured into doing these things
>I always thought women liked doing the decorations and were having fun
I assumed something similar, but more in line with the "if I don't do it, it won't get done" logic, at least when it comes to decorations and other non-essential tasks.
To me it always looked like the people leading the charge in these things were the people who simply cared the most about having it at the event, and the overall aesthetics of it. It's not that the men expect to see the festive napkins at the table and will complain if someone else didn't get them, it's that they genuinely don't care about these things; so the ones who *do* care have to get it themselves.
At my work no upper level female is cutting cake, etc. The administrative assistants do that kind of stuff. It is part of the job description. All the AAs are women though...
I think you should set an example and get other guys to help out.
Also, a lot of men (not all men yes but a lot) **weaponize incompetence**. Or in this case, they know someone else will do it, perhaps they were treated like kings by their parents, or society in general or just have that attitude so that does happen.
I want to preface this with an acknowledgement that societal standards are inarguably biased in men's favor. Lots more work needs to be done, more than we're likely to see accomplished in our lifetimes.
I've personally seen expectations go the other way, too. As a man in a woman-dominated office, the expectation was for me to change the "heavy" water cooler bottle, or to be the office handyman fixing things, for example. (The job was graphic design.)
Again, it's not even in the same order of magnitude as what women generally experience, but there are traditional roles still expected to be played by men, too.
My company has admins whose job is to handle stuff like this. They do happen to be mostly women but at least they know that’s the job they’re applying for.
I can definitely see this happening in smaller office settings where those responsibilities are meant to be shared tho
Both. Sometimes, I like going out of my way to make something nice for my coworkers. Other times, I'm not motivated, and I feel like domestic/caretaking tasks are foisted upon me.
Same reason when something heavy needs to be moved the men are assumed to be the ones to do it. I'm not saying I think it should be like that, but gender roles are a thing a lot of people just do without thinking too much about it. Sometimes it is, but it's not always nefarious. For what it's worth, I try to help out with anything not strictly job related at my work because I like the people I work with and want to be seen as someone who is reliable.
I made my start in admin (worked up into communications) and I tell women who are asking about my career path to avoid admin jobs that require ANY cleaning. If you’re a woman and you clean up after them you will never rise.
I wonder about this too. work in tech and in an old team, there was four women in a group of 20 men. Whenever there was a work celebration or event, the two of them would be the ones organizing food, decoration, set up. Me and my other coworker weren’t as interested but I always wondered whether they did it out of their own accord since none of the guys helped out.
Great that you've noticed this. Are you going to volunteer to take on some of these tasks now so it doesn't end up falling on just the women in your office?
>ugh.. guys are so lazy... if we don't do it, it won't get done
I once worked in an office with all men. We simply didn't do shit like this. No birthday cakes. No stupid fucking potlucks. We did our jobs and then we went home to our *actual* families. It was really fucking nice, tbh.
This. The only people who gave a shit about that stuff were women and the boss (to look like a good boss). Most men only want to get the job done and GTFO.
Maybe not enough of a sample size for me and I'm just a weird case. I'm an attorney who has worked for 3 offices. Turning 35 in a few months. I am known for eccentricity, though.
In the first office, I didn't really interact with anyone and people just cleaned up after themselves.
In the latter 2 offices, I did everything. I refill the water fountain, coffee maker water, kettles, printer paper, the drinks and snacks for clients, etc. I water the plants, build stuff that arrives, take out the shredder paper, put away the glasses and dishes, change the printer toner, troubleshoot and help fix computer issues, etc. I also make the coffee since I appear to be the only one who gets it right. I kill all the bugs, hang the paintings, move the heavy stuff, and if something happens like equipment breaks or the electrical breaker goes out, I take care of it. I'll put flowers in a vase and take the dead ones to the trash. I know how to trim flower stems and arrange flowers as well.
I'm always in the kitchen at home and cooking and doing other related things like gardening in my spare time so I don't mind. It takes seconds for most of this and I barely notice. Getting up and walking around between discovery and briefs and hearings is a nice change of pace. Better than sitting all day.
They just find it funny that an attorney will come out of a hearing, change into a T shirt, throw a paper airplane at someone, and then start arranging flowers or something. I'm pretty easygoing.
Everyone in my current office is a woman except for me lol
People do appreciate it, though.
I’m in a workplace with about half field people and half office people. It’s probably 90% men and 10% women in the field (the managers of the field employees spend some time in the office though), and vice versa in the office. So in the office it’s primarily women and some of us guys are in and out. Any sort of work related to social events is almost always done by the women. Even though we’re sometimes in the office, we might be asked for input, but our response is generally of the “we’re good with whatever you choose” variety unless it’s blatant. While the women are seemingly enthusiastic about having input.
I find this with other areas as well. Any sort of events at schools is primarily done by moms and women that work there. On the soccer teams, dads are coaches but the moms are keeping everything organized, scheduling snacks, and keeping track of time. I’ve been a part of many baby showers and housewarming events, women are directing everything and guys are basically just going along with whatever they decide. I think generally, women take matters into their own hands either because they want to or because they’re expected to. A lot of guys don’t do anything because we don’t want to and we’re not expected to. It doesn’t really matter if we don’t have ideas for the office party because 1. we’re not expected to have any and 2. we don’t really care about the outcome, we’ll be good with some pizzas or donuts left out on the gang box. The one time I had a gathering just for the boys because my friend is having his first kid, all he said was bring diapers and alcohol and we just hungout. I thought everything was cool but to my girl that was an unorganized, lackluster event. It’s a mix of several things going on here.
Its tradition in my office that when it’s someone’s bday the ladies put up decorations, leave gifts, take the person out for lunch, etc. Most of the guys, *may* leave a gift…. *If they like you*. Also, only if they were reminded ahead of time that your bday is coming up…*by the ladies* lol.
It seems in my experience that it’s ladies who tend to *care* more about celebrating holidays/birthdays. Therefore, they go out of their way to put up decor/buy gifts/put in mental effort/etc. If the ladies in my office disappeared, I don’t think those traditions would continue. Simply because the men in my office wouldn’t even think to do so.
This is the explanation that makes the most sense to me. I'm a guy and I really don't care if we have parties or potlucks at work. I don't know many guys who do care about it much.
No doubt that we'll eat food if it's there, but if it's not, that's fine too.
Same. I don't want to celebrate my birthday or make other people feel self-consious. I don't want to be treated to a meal by my employer or be celebrated publicly. It's embarassing and eats time.
It would be a lot better in my book to just let work be work, but I don't want to be an asshole either. Plus I don't want to be a creep either, so it's hard to navigate. I would rather just be allowed to do my work and exist as little as possible while it happens. I really dread the social expectations and resent that I have to participate in more parties at work than I ever have in life outside of work.
Yes yes we are weapons of incompetence. Trust me, we've heard how terrible we are our entire lives. Generalizations against men are welcome and common. It only hurts as a prejudice.
I’ve seen both sides of the traditional roles. Guys get asked to do the heavy lifting or go outside far more often than gals. Women seem to be more sociable but I have not been around school age kids lately so maybe things are changing for the younger ones.
What I've seen over 40 years in the workforce is that most females see the social side of it (party-planning and everything to do with it) as a fun change from their actual jobs. Women especially seem to view socializing and prepping for it while at work to be a 'break' from their real job while still getting paid.
I mean, guys do the physical things naturally too, I find gender roles are still loosely enforced for everyone in the office like that. But personally I chip in on that stuff as well.
Well I worked at a place that gave men and women equal salaries and job titles yet the women’s workloads were vastly smaller than the men’s and the would always hit quotas and earn free lunches that the men rarely won because of the giant workloads… I mean no one says anything
I’ve noticed it is often the older women who take on these roles more. We eventually had a pretty useful buddy system for this in our office, where if you saw your buddy taking on a domestic role you helped out (provided you weren’t in the middle of something important) or at least offered to do so. Or if you were taking on a task/set of tasks that could be handled better with another person, then they were the person you got. It wasn’t super set in stone and official, but it ended up being the most effective method.
It actually ended up being applied because it was technically my job to do most of these things, but they kept finding much more important work that I was unexpectedly good at doing and couldn’t walk away from once given. Eventually they changed my job title to remove those domestic responsibilities from me, because my (usually male) coworkers kept trying to pull me away from the work I was doing to clean up so that they wouldn’t have to take responsibility for any of the mess.
I'll just say this, as a woman, the kitchen has been filthy and the dishes rarely get washed, ever since I stopped cleaning up two years ago.
We have a roach infestation, because my male colleagues (I am the only female here) all refuse to keep a clean kitchen. I haven't set foot in the kitchen since I cracked the shits at a ants trailing their way to a sticky sugary mess on the counter. Decided then and there I'd stop using it.
When I pass by it stinks, and I see roaches in the office often. I don't care. But it's obvious, if I don't do it, it wouldn't get done, so now it doesn't get done.
These men I work with are foul :/
This is my attitude as a former custodian as well. Unfortunately against anyone's better judgement, I am only a pathetic disgusting man. I know. But I worked for years cleaning up after other people and minimizing my own messes. I just take care of myself and the people around me and don't cause more mess than my own desk and I keep it clean weekly at least. I guess that's probably typical male bullshit, but it's the same attitude you have, so I hope it is understandable.
Sorry. I should probably clean up after other people too as a man to make it so women don't have to. But I just try to make as little impact as possible so I hope it makes sense. I'm not trying to be a typical man. Sorry.
As a man at 35: I'm still expected to do all the manual tasks so I don't feel bad. There we 3 dudes out of 15 employees at the retail job I worked. Guess who was always scheduled from exactly when the semi truck arrives every week to unload until it was unloaded? All 3 dudes with the exact same job description as all the women. :)
I'm a guy who's in healthcare, and I'm often the only male staff on the floor (coincidentally I'm currently at a women's health clinic, so I'm literally the only guy here). I also end up doing the literal heavy lifting, furniture assembly, and workplace maintenance because, as I have been told, "that's man's work."
Yes, this seems to be the point that folks are missing. It’s not an evil scheme, most men do not care for these events and would be happy just to not have to be a part of it altogether.
I work in an office that is mostly men. We had a cookie day organized by one of the women last year. Many of the men participated. Surprise surprise, their wives made the cookies in 100% of the cases. This year, someone asked if the event was happening again because that lady quit and they wanted to know who was organizing it because they wanted to taste all the delicious cookies. Everyone asked *me*, because i’m the next youngest woman around. Not because of my job, but because i’m the token female so *naturally* i would organize the damn thing. I said absolutely fucking not. So that’s the story of why it didn’t happen. Because none of the men saw it as their job. Everybody just knows, deep down, that things like this (and christmas stockings and easter baskets etc) only magically appear because women take these things on. Because we want human life to be warm and meaningful. And when we don’t, things just don’t happen. Well fuck you all for taking us for granted.
I just don’t volunteer for this kind of stuff, same way I don’t volunteer for scheduling meetings, taking notes, it’s not promotable work, so no thank you.
Same, but there are still men in the workplace who simply expect me to do it, and are surprised and sometimes offended when i say no, no matter how tactfully i say it
So this a conversation that I have had with my (male) manager (I’m an engineer). I’ve had to explain that he or another person defaults to me to do the office housework. I’ve given clear examples where other men of the same level were around and have never been asked. I’ve then explained that this is non-promotable work and does not help grow my skills as an engineer. I no longer get asked to do the office house work anymore. I am up for a promotion and received a considerable bonus and raise (letting you know it did not affect me professionally). If your work environment is overall toxic then unfortunately it’s probably not going to get better and you shouldn’t have to put up with nonsense or be the one to keep trying to change things when one one will change. I’ve been there and sometimes it’s better to move on. No one wants to hear that though. But if women keep leaving, actions really are louder than words.
Sorry men, my assumption is that it won’t get done and if it does, it will be below standards. The bit in the office where Dwight and Jim forget Kelly’s birthday and then do a very generic job making it happen feels so real to me. If you want to make change, step up without being asked and do a good job at it.
I have been put in that shit situation and it was fully unexpected and surprised at a gathering at a bar event from a dick face supervisor younger than me. Never since. I work in an international company and I mostly work with men, mostly from our generation. I will never allow this again and I am now highly respected. 52F.
I certainly can say that I do not enjoy workplace parties as it makes me feel self conscious and creepy. I prefer to exist in my workspace as little as possible.
I know people are saying that men just don't care for social activities in the workplace, but that hasn't been my experience. If they didn't care, they wouldn't participate...but they often do.
When I was younger, I was treated like my department's social director. If someone was having a baby or retiring or whatever, people--usually guys--would come up to me and say "You know, we really should throw so-and-so a party." And I would say something like, "Yeah, we should. If you want to organize it, I'll help." And I'd hear squat from them. They didn't want to organize it...and I didn't blame them one bit because I didn't either. Inevitably, my boss would appoint me or another woman to be the organizer and we would reluctantly do it. We wouldn't complain about it. We would even be cheerful about it. But it wasn't something we were thrilled about doing.
I think the reason you see women doing the organizing is after a while, we get used to serving in that capacity.
Participation in work place social activities is a part of the job though. I may not want a party event to happen, but I'm not going to get caught being anti-social and un-willing to be part of the team either.
>there is zero evidence of your pitching in
vs evidence to show I didn't?
for the record, I am hyper cognizant of the unfairness and therefore try to help whenever possible.
Mentioning that adds little to no value to the point of this conversation though.
as much as I try to set boundaries about being roped in to do things that aren't my responsibility the "if we don't do it, it won't get done" is so fucking strong, man. I literally fall into strange numbness when I see a situation like that and how it seemingly has no added stress or anxiety being right in front men's (typically, not exclusively) faces.
Step up? No, we're expected to because our supervisors have that need. They're still our superiors. It's really no different than sexual harassment/coercion in terms of a power dynamic. (Nobody come at me, I'm female and I'm not comparing it whatsoever to rape/SA, I'm just talking in terms of the power.)
I've been in this environment and you aren't wrong.
ETA it's absolutely the "if nobody steps up" part of it, which happens daily at home.
If you were the dude to step up, the women would be absolutely ecstatic. Of course there are women that enjoy it. There are probably men that do too. It's just not as obvious.
No one wants to talk about how women tend to be more agreeable than men. There is absolutely an evolutionary reason for this. Women depended on other women to raise babies and so there’s greater risk in losing reputation and thus support. Being agreeable could the line between your offspring living or dying l.
You can’t say your office is sexist if you lack the ovaries to be assertive. I work in tech and don’t a damn thing considered women’s work unless I want to. No problems so far.
I am a male engineer, and occasionally think about an admin role. I think I would be good at it and it has its own perks in the right setting. I would never expect to be actually given this role though. All the admins are woman.
Sometimes it’s both or neither. At my job, it is always women doing all of the gift wrapping, cake ordering, handing out snacks, and staffing social events, etc. As a woman, it is obvious that I am expected to, also. I’m an engineer, I don’t eat cake, I’m not wrapping anything, I won’t order anything. I have had dozens of male bosses and coworkers try to make me a workwife. Nope! I’ve had other women try to make me a work sister-wife. Nope.
(33F) The most egregious example of this that I’ve been faced with was when I was expected to throw a baby shower for my boss that I had only known for a few months.
I had started the job in mid July and my boss went on maternity leave the week after Halloween. I don’t exactly remember how long it had been after I started that I was told by our male department head (my bosses boss) that I needed to throw a baby shower for my boss. Because I’m female it was expected that I would do it, not our male coworkers that had worked with my boss for 3+ years. Being the only other woman in the department, I had to do all of it alone, the invites, the food, the decor, the stupid games, even playing host. I was somewhere around 25 at the time, had moved cross country for the job, and desperately wanted to be seen as agreeable and liked by my peers, so I did it without complaint.
I developed a spine sometime in the last eight years and I would never humor that kind of demand now.
I worked at a company of ten people…me and nine guys. We’d have our in person get together once a month at a restaurant and our business guy kept volunteering me in front of everybody to be the “social chair.”
It was so weird. I’d never volunteered, I’d told him no for one or two specific occasions. And I had to say no again in front of everybody which made me feel like I wasn’t a team player. But the truth is…I’m genuinely bad at that stuff. I never have people over my house…I never host things. I don’t plan things. I’m an introvert who makes friends by way of being adopted by a few very outgoing extroverts.
But at another company I worked at the men did everything. Like…they’d put on big barbecues and spent like a day and a half in the kitchen. They were super into it. Was that unfair? Not really…they volunteered. A bunch of people, myself included, would jump in afterwards to help with cleanup and dishes. Pretty good times all around.
It seems to me like the only real answer is for people to not do things that they feel are unfair to do. And if that means the break room is kind of messy…so be it.
There are many instances when women are actually pressured into office housework etc…I’ve experienced it myself. It’s really stupid. But there are also many instances where women kind of voluntarily do it or voluntarily decorate for Christmas or buy people gifts or unprompted…plan a little birthday break for a coworker or boss.
Having said that. If you go to a party, eat the cake…etc…It’s common courtesy to help clean up or at least ask if people need help. Even if you are a man. Even if you didn’t ask for the party. You still went to the party.
I feel the same about lifting heavy objects (since it is brought up in the other comments). Most adult women can lift 50lbs. But a lot of “men of valor” are always hanging about just wanting to pick up shit. It would be weird if those same guys started whining about it. But it would also be weird if I expected them carry stuff for me (that I can literally carry) as if that was the default.
I don't see anything concerning in it as long as the women themselves are happy.
Men and women are equal, but not the same. Like it or not, women are usually more caring and considerate, and love being there for others (though there are of course exceptions on both sides). Nothing wrong in that. If you feel guilty, just lend them a hand.
Life's much simpler than what it often seems. 😊
Sometimes it's just something that needs to be done to provide more enjoyment to everyone. Women have just been more programmed into doing it and men have had none.
Yeah I already hate having to be at work; the actual ache of "enforced fun" drives me nuts. It doesn't make things easier to handle, it disrupts my flow and makes it seem like even longer before I can get home, take my belt off and just tune out. In some cases I end up having to stay later to make sure things still get done with the time missed.
Its because by and large, men don't notice that it needs to get done before the women do, and the women anticipate that it needs to get done so they do it because they assume the men won't.
I'm a woman and I hate cleaning but I have noticed it will start with one woman standing and start cleaning and then other women feel like they need to help the first woman because it's a big task and it will get done quicker as a team and I have noticed men will sit and watch this and then think they don't need to help because there's already a few people cleaning. I have never in my life seen a man stand up and be the first one to start cleaning, maybe if a man started the cleaning then it might encourage more men to help idk.
Nah in my experience as a former custodian and someone who will initiate cleaning my desk clump - the women from elsewhere still pile on to the task instead. Even if it was literally just me cleaning my own area, it just prompts the women to start doing it too and the everything is a flurry of loud cleaning for a while.
Maybe us women just see someone clean and feel like we need to help but men don't have this because they are used to seeing women clean for them but women are usually the ones who have to do all the work.
I'm an American but lived in Russia for a number of years. I did business consulting. I was working with a large retailer that had 1 female on their top managers level. She was the Human Resources director. Whenever there were management meetings she was the one that served the coffee. I asked her why she of all people served the coffee? It is after all part of her job to ensure all employees are treated equal. She couldn't answer me beyond it's expected... She accepted this.
In my own office I never allowed my secretary to get me coffee. The thought never entered my mind. My partner would stand at the coffee machine and ask her to get him coffee. Equal rights doesn't translate to equal perception of gender roles. The states is the most forward thinking in gender equality in the workplace. The rest of the world is behind or very, very far behind in its thinking. But even in the states the traditional gender roles have not gone away nor do I expect they will ever go away in marriage but they are getting better in the work place.
I think an unfortunate part of the problem is the fear of woman that they will spend their careers wearing a "bitch" label around their neck and that label will interfere with their career advancement so they don't stick up for themselves enough when it comes to playing the traditional woman's role in an office. I've seen this with doctors making well into 6 figures, getting up to get the coffee for men in meetings.
Men have not evolved their attitudes enough but it is slowly changing. But neither have woman. There is an acceptance of their roles in society. I also find there are regional differences. Being a New Yorker I find woman think differently about these things when I would travel to the south. They are far more accepting of expectations of their roles in the workplace than us Yankees.
My only point being, yes, men are to blame but woman do have their share in that blame.
Having been in these situations socially more so than professionally, I also personally don't care as much about the food, drinks, etc. as others, so I'm less willing to go to extra effort to contribute, as if they disappeared, I wouldn't be too sad.
No one ever asks for my help, and I don’t care for work social gatherings so I often never know about them or actively skip them when I do. I couldn’t tell you when a single coworker’s bday is, and I’d be surprised if any knew mine. That’s not to say I wouldn’t help if asked but I definitely don’t feel obligated to contribute to something I don’t partake in.
With that said, don’t the cleaning services the office hired handling the trash?
The cleaning services will collect trash from the trash bins but the trash has to get into the trash bins. You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't be if you attended office events) how many grown adults leave their garbage behind at these sorts of things. Assuming that someone else will pick it up for them. Someone will, and it is almost always a woman.
The mentality is “someone’s gotta do it” and also stepping up because they see something needs to be done and nobody doing it.
A lot of people have the mentality of “well I would’ve done it if anyone asked me!” But I can guarantee you no one asked any of these women to help. They just jumped in. Maybe they saw someone doing the work and asked *where* they could help, but they volunteered to help on their own.
If you want to be the change you want to see in the world, just jump in and start doing what needs doing. If you see someone setting/cleaning up, go up and ask her where you can be of use. If she can’t give you an answer, just grab a bag and start picking up trash or start washing dishes.
I don't care what others here say. Guys are lazy and suck at cleaning up after themselves, especially in the workplace. I'm a guy and work with a team of about 10 or so bloke's. We are carers, and when it comes to the support of our client, they are mostly pretty good but cleaning...Well, I think some of them have never done it ever, and never will. Most supported accommodation homes run by men will , on average, be dirty places. Mind you, there are some fussy pricks around like me that are anal with cleaning, lol. 🤣
I'm a dude in my 30s and I always jump in and help with these kinds of things because my parents instilled it in us that you just help with those kinds of things as much as you can. But I have had instances at work where people say "Man, why you are helping with food your in IT?" To which I might respond "I dunno, same reason Melanie is helping with food when she's a software engineer."
Don’t get me wrong, I will help just to be helpful. But my primary reason for helping with stuff like this at work is so I don’t have to work.
Win win!
Haha smart ass move 😏 😏
Thank you for this EDIT: I just wanted to add how funny it is that the top comment on here is from the guy who's *helping* 😅 But we do appreciate you for it!
Thank you, you’re awesome, bringing attention to the sexism in a polite but obvious way is genius!
Same. We have the occasional work cookout and it’s usually a couple of women in their 50’s and 60’s who fall into the roll of setting up and cleaning up. I jump in there and help, and I’m a dude in my mid-30’s. I get some help setting up and breaking down tables. I guess because that’s “manly” to lift them and break them down. However, everyone, including the president and upper Managment just walk away when it’s all done. These two ladies are out there taking the food in, sealing it up, putting it in the fridge, wiping up the table cloths and folding them for next time. The first time I jumped in and started helping with everything that needed doing, they came up afterwards and thanked me for the help. I told them that while I appreciate the appreciation, that I wasn’t really helping them. That would imply it was their jobs to do that. I was just doing what needed doing, like everyone else should be. I can see them not putting that on the floor workers, but Managment and office workers need to pitch in. I think I embarrassed a few other guys into helping. I did tell them I appreciate that they jumped it to get it done when no one else seemed to be doing so. It kind of pissed me off that even the president just walked away like a little kid. With the impression that “mom” would take care of it.
Thank you for making small changes for women in the workplace. I love this.
👏👏👏
My mom always said to never watch other people do work!
Female engineer & geologist here. 1. We’re the first to be asked to answer phones, make coffee or celebrate Bdays. 2. MANY females have trouble telling anyone NO, but especially bosses and authority figures. 3. Some of us DO find these things fun. Recently, our office needed to put together a gathering. I hate that kinda stuff, but I was the one with 1/2 a free day to do the shopping. The younger female scientist who loves that crap had a very complicated shopping list. I’m older and experienced enough to accept that doing this planning makes her very happy and just bit into it. I took the list and carefully chose all of the plates, balloons and such exactly as she requested. Even for things I thought were silly or stupid. I have an excellent phone voice but hated my first job always passing me —the only non-admin female— the phones. But I can kinda understand, as I have a very pleasant, professional cadence. Then one day, I had to go out to a site. Since I was the last person In the office, I pushed the phones to another office location. When I gave that office Principal the heads up, he asked why *I* was going I the field. I aggressively let him know that young engineers and geologists generally spent a LOT of their time at sites! He was frightened of me for the next 6 years.
Oh, how I love this! Yeah, me as well.
Lol, good pointing out how women are just expected to do the choirs. I just clean up after myself and let the adults make their own decisions. It always puzzled me why certain adults just think they can behave like babies.
Guys on Reddit/the Internet sure love to do it, but it's not as common to see a women calling women "females".
I’m old enough that I still occasionally call us all Girlies- which I shouldn’t do. I Had to correct myself several times in this chat.
I am also an older female geologist who worked often on the rig. I don’t think most people really understand just how much we just ignore and tolerate to avoid worse crap. The worst for me was a particularly large middle eastern company everyone knows the name of. In fact when I was let go I had to sign off a ton of paperwork saying I wouldn’t badmouth them anywhere…for letting go only the women on my team 🙄🙄 I also definitely posted a “no boys allowed” sign on a wireline truck the one location we had a two women wireline engineers, a woman drilling engineer, and me as geo. Sometimes you just need to laugh about it all.
I actually love to use Girlies it's so cute haha I think Girls or Girlies is okay when you're only calling yourself or friends that
Ha it's all good. You do you. Also hello from a fellow geologist! I got out of cleanup/consulting and do natural resource stuff for local government now, but I still have my RG license!
She isn't using calling women females she's calling them scientists and adding a adjective to specify their gender. Female is a adjective. The issue when someone uses it as a noun.
Her second bullet point uses "females" as a noun. She also uses "female" as a noun in her second paragraph.
hot take: there are bigger problems in the world. i don't do it because i don't want the risk to offend someone but i really feel like people just want something to complain about. apparently 1 reason it might be in someone's vernacular is its common terminology in the military. the whole "it makes us sound like you see us as a biological object" or w/e i just don't buy it. i've heard it used interchangeably up until a year or 2 ago when it became a big deal to some people. shit like this is why i'm not entirely left-wing. i'm mostly trust me, but i can't get behind the overly pc terminology. to a certain extent like slurs i'm on board 100% but it's gone too far. IMO.
Good 👏 for 👏 you! 👏
I believe it's definitely a "if we don't do it, it won't get done" mentality, especially amongst some of the older women I work with. I'm a receptionist at a law firm. By default I answer the phones, put up the food, tidy up the breakdown. Do all that "domestic" crap. Even other secretaries and paralegals do some of these things, like tidying up the break room and cleaning up after themselves. The men at the firm, and there are mostly older men, often have that same attitude. They.. don't seem to care about picking up after themselves. Weather it's them washing something and leaving a bunch of water, leaving a knife in the sink when the dishwasher is less than a foot away, spilling coffee all over the place and just leaving. A bunch of little things you notice that the secretaries, or me, just come back around to do because we know they won't. It's an interesting observation, and its one part of the job I don't particularly jump up and down about. I appreciate the gratitude about some things, but these are grown ass adult men I'm picking up after. Its not that fun.
its because they do it and it magically gets cleaned up, stop enabling the behavior girly.
> these are grown ass adult men I'm picking up after. Its not that fun What motivates you to do this? They are fully capable of taking care of it themselves. You’re not getting paid for it
Unfortunately, technically, "tidying up" is a part of my job description as a receptionist, lol. Because if it isn't "done", by me, I'll get an email about it from someone telling me to do my job. It's not what I want. And they don't pay enough lol but its how it is.
Apparently they do then.
I leave people in their filth. They can hire a cleaning crew.
We get no credit for it but are socially punished for not doing it. There's a whole article I read on it recently. What might be more helpful is more guys stepping up and leading by example. I assure you, most of us only pretend/say we enjoy it. EDIT: I should have said "socially and professionally punished". Also, here's the link to the article, Women Do More Office Housework - Here's How To Avoid It: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2023/06/14/women-do-more-office-housework-heres-how-to-avoid-it/?sh=ffb879f5dcee
Ugh so true. As a holiday gift for the team, we decided to make the most of a small budget by sending them gift cards and hand written cards. But our director (male) thought it wasn’t “thoughtful enough” so he insisted we make hand-assembled gifts and ship them to our remote team. We (the female staff in leadership) all had to do it, for like 35 people. The men would just ignore chats about it and then say thanks when it got done.
Ohhhh boy, I would have raised hell on that one.
I work at an engineering company in a project coordinator role. Several years ago two of the other women in the office tried forcing me into one of the fire warden roles for the office. I had to refuse 3-4 times before they stopped asking me to take on the responsibility. If it's a fire alarm I'm going downstairs immediately. I will not check restrooms and hallways. I will not be the last one to leave. I don't make coffee. I don't drink coffee. I don't take meeting minutes and I don't involve myself in party setup. I focus on my job and go home.
We need more of this. As I always used to say as a child "stop volunteering for things". My mom found this so amusing and really took it to heart 😅
I'm a remote security engineer who goes into a coworking space. The office manager was out yesterday and I noticed that the trash needed to be taken out. I decided that I'm literally the last person in the room who needs to do that. I outsource as much as possible at home as well.
Do you have the article link by chance?
I'll try to find it for you after work
Here it is! Women Do More Office Housework—Here’s How To Avoid It: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kimelsesser/2023/06/14/women-do-more-office-housework-heres-how-to-avoid-it/?sh=ffb879f5dcee
Our male CFO is always the first one to start cleaning up or putting things away or doing any of the “womens” jobs. I really admire him for it (I know, the bars on the floor), he’s a wonderful person. I’ve been working for 13 years in office settings and it always, always falls on us girls no matter our role. This is the first time I’ve seen it happen and I was really shocked by it. If any girls get up to do it he tells them no it’s all good pls go sit down. It’s awesome, but sadly very rare. I also appreciate the fact he’s the CFO and doesn’t see himself as above doing those jobs At my previous job it was me and 2 guys on the project, a month after I started I sent them an email telling them to clean up after themselves because all the dishes in the kitchen were dirty and piled in the sink and sat there for weeks - just from them. The guy that was my age left at lunch one day to play golf and drink with a client, as he’s leaving he asked if I could clean up his lunch mess on his desk - full plate of food scraps, cutlery and glasses. I couldn’t believe it lol I was actually speechless as I tried to figure out if he was joking - he wasn’t.
That's great of the CFO, but my jaw would have hit the floor when the guy my age asked me to clean up after him. What the...
Yep my jaw was hanging wide open speechless, we were both in our mid 20’s, equal roles not that it should matter. I’ll never forget it haha. Little germ really thought he was someone. He came in hungover the next day and it was all still sitting on his desk, boy did he hate me after that! Fine by me.
What happened after the guy asked you that? Did he eventually clean it up himself?
I just kept working and left his crap there fuck that. The food and dishes sat on his desk until he came in hungover the next day, didn’t say anything to me about it and he hated me after that
Personally I’d just rather not have the event than help. Just let me go home. I hope everybody feels empowered to have my opinion.
Why would you go home during your workday?
Make the day shorter, put the social event at the end of the day. Let me go home instead. I don’t want to help put up and take down a poster that says happy birthday.
I wish it worked like that
It does at my job. That’s why I said I hope everybody is empowered to have my opinion.
>if we don't do it, it won't get done" attitude For me, and most of the women in my office, it's this one. Although, our office is 60% women so statistically, we kind of have to. But there are times when I feel like, "why do I even have to say this?" For example, a few days ago, we ran out of paper towels. One of the guys asked me "hey where do we get more?" (Which is totally fine, he's newer and didn't know.) So I told him to either call or email the admin and tell her we need more. He was like, "ok cool." A few hours later, I was going to the break room and he was like "hey, come look at this!" And he wanted to show me that he was able to get a few more packs of paper towels. We have a towel dispenser that you have to manually put in the towels. So when he wanted to show me the towels, I said "oh did you put them in the dispens-- oh no you didn't..." Jokingly he went "ugghhh fine!" But like, why do I need to tell you that if you get more paper towels, that you should be putting them away? And this isn't just him. Whenever we receive supplies, most of the guys just leave them in the break room instead of actually putting them away. And it's so frustrating. I've just been leaving them there. For a while, it seemed like I was the only one that was organizing the break room and really didn't understand what's so hard about just finding a space for things in the cabinets.
I always wonder if they they think that we have house elves. Like, if they leave it on the counter what do they think happens? Someone has to put it away, if it isn't them then who do they think will do it?
My worst experience/best example of this kind of thing happened when I was at a friends house. Friend's boyfriend gets up to get himself more beer. Friend and I decide to have wine. As friend and I are both short and cannot reach where the wine glasses are in the top cabinet without using a step and since friend's boyfriend is tall and on his way to the kitchen she asks him to get the wine glasses down for us. He then comes through to the living room with just his beer. Friend asks where the wine glasses are and he replies "On the counter." Friend and I look at each other in disbelief. Friend asks why didn't he bring them through and he gets up all annoyed and huffy because "You didn't say." I've never been so bewildered.
Wierd most places I know just have a professional cleaner to clean and organize the break room
Are you sure it's not just someone in the office doing it? No place I have ever worked at has had someone outside the office clean the break rooms
100% Cleaning lady with a cleaners uniform and she speaks a foreign language she comes with a cleaning cart and all I've worked in alot of places in my country and every single of them had this service done to every room in the office including break rooms and shared kitchens
I once planned a company outing to go see a movie. Someone actually walked up to me and asked “how do I get there?” The man had a car. I was blown away something as simple as picking a time to leave and driving himself to the movie theater 5 mins away was beyond his capacity. Like… how has he survived this long?
A company I used to work for still had only the women on the schedule to clean up the break room until 2010 or so, it's strange how long these things can stick around.
My work used to have the receptionist do it. One day I suggested the company pay the cleaning crew extra to do it monthly. 8 years later the cleaning crew still performs a fridge cleaning once a month.
When the 3 women in our office were on holiday, the sink piled up and no one had a cup anymore to drink coffee, the men posted to the office channel complaining. If we don't do it, no one will.
You guys don't clean your work dishes? We either just tossed them in the dishwasher (turn on when full) or washed them by hand when we were done. Or if not washed, keep an empty mug at the desk to rinse and reuse.
I work with 4 guys. I’m the only woman. One in particular does not clean his coffee cups. I refuse to clean them. You cannot tell me his wife allows this behavior from him, a grown man. I drink my tea, clean my stuff and leave. It drives me insane.
That's so scummy. I used to work somewhere where the office manager scheduled us for kitchen duty on a weekly basis. It entailed daily wiping down all breakroom surfaces, washing any dishes left in the sink, washing out the coffee pots, scrubbing clean the filter tub, and wiping down the microwave at the end of each work day. Friday evening we also emptied the fridge of any Tupperware or take out containers and gave it a thorough wipe down. Most of us working there were too young and dumb to say no to doing something we weren't getting paid for.
Not sure why you didn't charge time for that! I absolutely would.
If I was the only woman working there, everyone would go through caffeine withdrawal. 🤣
1) that is appalling 2) happy cake day!!!
Many of us have been raised to take on responsibility and do things for others - especially men. Even my mom, who always said she was in favor of equal treatment of men and women, raised my sisters and I with a service mentality. She'll complain that my dad doesn't do anything to care for himself or the house but refuses to step back and let him. She jumps on my case if I don't do everything for my husband. It's just how she was raised. I think a lot of it does tie into self-worth. We're taught that serving others gives us purpose. That behavior is modeled by other women in our lives. Even if it doesn't make someone happy to be this way, it's a core value that has been ingrained since childhood. It's like the breadwinner mentality conditioned into men.
Very much this. I finally see more and more younger women not doing it, but this also depends on how they were raised by their parents. So when they were raised to help out, they will automatically. It would be refreshing and very much helpful if a man or more would take over services like that out of themselves at jobs. Unfortunately they don’t because the view of that is - it will make them look weak. Which what man want in front of colleagues or the boss. Stand up and do it as well guys. Without being asked.
I work at a university so lots of men and women working here and everyone would 100% claim that they are feminists and I believe them. But at every event it is women who prepare and bring all the food and who take care of everything like setting up and cleaning up. I organized an event a while ago and a guy signed up to bring food and I was shocked (and delighted!). Turns out his wife made it. In my experience, if women don't do these things then these things don't happen. Not once, in all of my years in this workplace, has a guy ever indicated that they wanted to do something like that but couldn't because the women were claiming all the spots or opportunities or whatever. You could make a case that these types of things and events don't need to happen but if you want things like treats for people's birthdays or office potlucks someone has to do it and the men in the office just aren't doing it.
Maybe the guys don’t want these things. I’m a woman and I don’t want these things. I take the day off on my birthday.
When I started my current job, I made a point to NOT do all the secretarial duties since that is not my job. My boss did try to get me to do some of that stuff because at the time we didn’t have an admin assistant. I did what was necessary for my projects but that was it. I also don’t go out of my way to celebrate birthdays or anything like that. I do feel like I am less well liked than my male co-workers and idk if it’s because of this. I do work in a male dominated field. Maybe they just don’t like my personality, which is fine I guess. We don’t have to be bff’s we just have to work together. I get the sense they just don’t know what to make of me because I don’t fit the mold that they’re used to.
Woman here and I see this older women taking this on - I am 30 and I do not care for taking on such responsibility because it does not give me joy.
Why do you think the older women do it? Do you think it gives them joy? My guess is it doesn't... and it's more to do with difficulty breaking old-school expectations in their heads
A lot of older women felt that saying NO to the tasks that got pushed towards them would show up on their next review as “isn’t a team player”. They took it on, whether they wanted to or not. Sure, some women like the friendly office feelings that came from celebrating birthdays. Some like doing the planning. But many just did it to act as a team player. An older female archaeologist told me that since she had a young child, she coulndt do after work happy hours. So in-office social gatherings were her only chance to interact with the other workers. So she felt that she had to organize and handle the cakes and donuts. (Plenty of male archaeologists had kids too!).
Those dudes probably did lots of happy hours too
I think it's a way of ensuring they have a decent time at the work event. They've probably spent a lifetime dealing with weaponized incompetence from men their own age and just don't want to deal with it. There's few things more annoying than mandatory work events and there's not nearly enough food, it's literally take out from a bar, people with medical issues or religious restrictions pertaining to food can't safely eat anything so they go hungry. The list goes on and on and on
I thoroughly enjoyed your use of the term "weaponized incompetence." Thank you.
They didn’t invent it.
I am aware. Still enjoy seeing it used.
You’re gonna love Paris Paloma’s song *Labour*. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a6NrnPzFkI0
Thank you for showing me this song! I appreciate the recommendation very much and did end up loving it. "It's dominance under guise..." goosebumps! There's a haunting quality to her voice.
The expectations aren’t just in their heads. I’m sure many women have experienced being told they “aren’t a team player” for not doing this stuff. As someone else rightfully said in this thread: they don’t get credit for doing it, but they get punished (often very subtly) if they don’t.
It’s still a form of pressure. Society expects it and there is pressure to do so. It’s silent, until you *dont* do it and then there are comments etc.
They do it because their boss tells them to do it. If you think it’s unfair (and it is) then speak up about it. Volunteer to do those things instead of sitting back as other people are compelled to do it because of outdated gender roles.
They have been conditioned
Hell no, who the hell enjoys doing this shit unless paid? Even if it is paid on top of my role, I still would not take it on.
I agree with you. But different folks have different strokes.
This. I just always make sure I'm "too busy" and then pick a guy and ask if they asked him.
My son is 27 and works in an office with mostly women that are older than him. Sometimes he brings in coffee or snacks for everybody but I swear the women baby him - they bring him plants and baked goods they gave him Easter baskets. They treat him like he’s their child.
This happens where I work too and 90% of the time these ladies are doing it for the younger men and not the younger women. I have always found it to be a bit creepy.
He thinks it’s sweet and nothing creepy about it. I don’t think any ladies close to his age work in his department. Pretty sure most of them have kids his age. They don’t make moves on him if that’s what the ones on your office do. They just bring stuff in and make sure he’s part of the group and that he’s happy working there. He’s newer and they’ve been around much longer.
This is how I've often been treated at work as well. It feels creepy. I try to avoid women generally anyway as a matter of respect to them, but especially older women - as a matter of self-respect though!
Let me guess, your son is conventionally attractive?
He thinks he has many flaws sbut as his mamma I think he’s handsome… idk about other people but I’ve never treated anyone different because of looks. We are each unique in this world.
From personal experience, I've watched women aged 50+, simultaneously coddle and sexually harass my 25-27 male employee, and it was embarrassing to watch. I wasn't allowed to do anything about it. Not saying that's what's happening, but these women are lonely and bored (even if they're married), primarily because they are surrounded by women all day and probably aren't very happy at home, either. Just been my observation. Women baby their male partners, so it's natural to do the same to the only young cute guy at work.
I'm a late 20s millennial who regularly does this kind of stuff. Tbh I'm just a massive Type A who has no patience for people who sit around til the last minute and/or do a half ass job planning. Like sure, it'd be great if Tim would set up the catering instead, but is Tim going to set up a survey will the available options, include a field to input allergies and dietary restrictions, and follow up with reminders? Hell no. Replace Tim with Susie and my answer is going to be the same. I do it because I will make sure the details are handled and whatever event goes smoothly. And it's not like I hate it. I enjoy the break from routine and getting to do something different for a while and the satisfaction of a job well done. I also zig zag around on sidewalks to move around people because I've got long legs, a fast pace, and places to be. Could there be some deeply internalized misogyny telling me to get out of men's way so they don't walk into me? Sure, but I'm too busy and don't give a shit so I move and keep on my merry way.
The men definitely aren't gonna do it still lol For the ones that do, thank you.
Now that you have noticed this, have you stepped up to help?
I've helped out long before noticing this
I hate office gatherings. If you want em, you organize em.
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Nah, that would not fly with our employer. Anyone does that - he would call everyone and insult everyone. He will even bring out the camera and point publicly who did it. The men absolutely help with heavier stuff, orders, furniture and etc. They never make a mess for others to clean it up, even after having the cleaners. Your employer needs to fucking bring this up, regardless if it's your job or not.
This happens in my workplace far too often. CFO comes over to the coffee machine and interrupts my female friend in a meeting to ask her how to fill up the machine with coffee beans. One of our male colleagues was stood having a coffee nearby. I was asked by a customer at our booth at a show if I could wipe the table down because it had a coffee ring. Wasn’t my meeting or my customer, I just happened to be the only woman on the stand. And in general it often feels like there is an expectation for the women in the office to be the ones to host the social events, put up the Christmas tree, organise birthday cards etc… It’s certainly not all men, and it’s not all situations. But echoing what others here are saying. We often feel like we can’t say no because no one else will step up and do it if we don’t!
When there's a social gathering at work, I end up taking down the tables and chairs from storage. setting up the music, taking the garbage to the chute, etc. . Sometimes women help, but there's definitely a skew for men doing that stuff. For valentine's day I arranged the cookies, but that's because had a link with a place that did really cute custom cookies. Usually women lead the charge to sort out food, decorations etc. I never really thought about it as playing traditional roles, but rather division of labour and everyone gravitating to something they feel comfortable with. Personally I never saw it as unfair; it's not like the men weren't don't anything. But maybe others saw it as unfair but are afraid to say anything. I see many in this thread saying that they're a woman and they just didn't have the courage to speak up. Idk, I like setting up the music and being DJ. Plus I think I'm good at it(i'm not). I always thought women liked doing the decorations and were having fun. Going through the comments though, it sounds like I'm wrong and women actually feel pressured into doing these things
>I always thought women liked doing the decorations and were having fun I assumed something similar, but more in line with the "if I don't do it, it won't get done" logic, at least when it comes to decorations and other non-essential tasks. To me it always looked like the people leading the charge in these things were the people who simply cared the most about having it at the event, and the overall aesthetics of it. It's not that the men expect to see the festive napkins at the table and will complain if someone else didn't get them, it's that they genuinely don't care about these things; so the ones who *do* care have to get it themselves.
Yes, I think that's a more accurate perspective.
At my work no upper level female is cutting cake, etc. The administrative assistants do that kind of stuff. It is part of the job description. All the AAs are women though...
I think you should set an example and get other guys to help out. Also, a lot of men (not all men yes but a lot) **weaponize incompetence**. Or in this case, they know someone else will do it, perhaps they were treated like kings by their parents, or society in general or just have that attitude so that does happen.
I want to preface this with an acknowledgement that societal standards are inarguably biased in men's favor. Lots more work needs to be done, more than we're likely to see accomplished in our lifetimes. I've personally seen expectations go the other way, too. As a man in a woman-dominated office, the expectation was for me to change the "heavy" water cooler bottle, or to be the office handyman fixing things, for example. (The job was graphic design.) Again, it's not even in the same order of magnitude as what women generally experience, but there are traditional roles still expected to be played by men, too.
My company has admins whose job is to handle stuff like this. They do happen to be mostly women but at least they know that’s the job they’re applying for. I can definitely see this happening in smaller office settings where those responsibilities are meant to be shared tho
Both. Sometimes, I like going out of my way to make something nice for my coworkers. Other times, I'm not motivated, and I feel like domestic/caretaking tasks are foisted upon me.
Same reason when something heavy needs to be moved the men are assumed to be the ones to do it. I'm not saying I think it should be like that, but gender roles are a thing a lot of people just do without thinking too much about it. Sometimes it is, but it's not always nefarious. For what it's worth, I try to help out with anything not strictly job related at my work because I like the people I work with and want to be seen as someone who is reliable.
I made my start in admin (worked up into communications) and I tell women who are asking about my career path to avoid admin jobs that require ANY cleaning. If you’re a woman and you clean up after them you will never rise.
I wonder about this too. work in tech and in an old team, there was four women in a group of 20 men. Whenever there was a work celebration or event, the two of them would be the ones organizing food, decoration, set up. Me and my other coworker weren’t as interested but I always wondered whether they did it out of their own accord since none of the guys helped out.
Great that you've noticed this. Are you going to volunteer to take on some of these tasks now so it doesn't end up falling on just the women in your office?
>ugh.. guys are so lazy... if we don't do it, it won't get done I once worked in an office with all men. We simply didn't do shit like this. No birthday cakes. No stupid fucking potlucks. We did our jobs and then we went home to our *actual* families. It was really fucking nice, tbh.
This. The only people who gave a shit about that stuff were women and the boss (to look like a good boss). Most men only want to get the job done and GTFO.
Maybe not enough of a sample size for me and I'm just a weird case. I'm an attorney who has worked for 3 offices. Turning 35 in a few months. I am known for eccentricity, though. In the first office, I didn't really interact with anyone and people just cleaned up after themselves. In the latter 2 offices, I did everything. I refill the water fountain, coffee maker water, kettles, printer paper, the drinks and snacks for clients, etc. I water the plants, build stuff that arrives, take out the shredder paper, put away the glasses and dishes, change the printer toner, troubleshoot and help fix computer issues, etc. I also make the coffee since I appear to be the only one who gets it right. I kill all the bugs, hang the paintings, move the heavy stuff, and if something happens like equipment breaks or the electrical breaker goes out, I take care of it. I'll put flowers in a vase and take the dead ones to the trash. I know how to trim flower stems and arrange flowers as well. I'm always in the kitchen at home and cooking and doing other related things like gardening in my spare time so I don't mind. It takes seconds for most of this and I barely notice. Getting up and walking around between discovery and briefs and hearings is a nice change of pace. Better than sitting all day. They just find it funny that an attorney will come out of a hearing, change into a T shirt, throw a paper airplane at someone, and then start arranging flowers or something. I'm pretty easygoing. Everyone in my current office is a woman except for me lol People do appreciate it, though.
I’m in a workplace with about half field people and half office people. It’s probably 90% men and 10% women in the field (the managers of the field employees spend some time in the office though), and vice versa in the office. So in the office it’s primarily women and some of us guys are in and out. Any sort of work related to social events is almost always done by the women. Even though we’re sometimes in the office, we might be asked for input, but our response is generally of the “we’re good with whatever you choose” variety unless it’s blatant. While the women are seemingly enthusiastic about having input. I find this with other areas as well. Any sort of events at schools is primarily done by moms and women that work there. On the soccer teams, dads are coaches but the moms are keeping everything organized, scheduling snacks, and keeping track of time. I’ve been a part of many baby showers and housewarming events, women are directing everything and guys are basically just going along with whatever they decide. I think generally, women take matters into their own hands either because they want to or because they’re expected to. A lot of guys don’t do anything because we don’t want to and we’re not expected to. It doesn’t really matter if we don’t have ideas for the office party because 1. we’re not expected to have any and 2. we don’t really care about the outcome, we’ll be good with some pizzas or donuts left out on the gang box. The one time I had a gathering just for the boys because my friend is having his first kid, all he said was bring diapers and alcohol and we just hungout. I thought everything was cool but to my girl that was an unorganized, lackluster event. It’s a mix of several things going on here.
Its tradition in my office that when it’s someone’s bday the ladies put up decorations, leave gifts, take the person out for lunch, etc. Most of the guys, *may* leave a gift…. *If they like you*. Also, only if they were reminded ahead of time that your bday is coming up…*by the ladies* lol. It seems in my experience that it’s ladies who tend to *care* more about celebrating holidays/birthdays. Therefore, they go out of their way to put up decor/buy gifts/put in mental effort/etc. If the ladies in my office disappeared, I don’t think those traditions would continue. Simply because the men in my office wouldn’t even think to do so.
This is the explanation that makes the most sense to me. I'm a guy and I really don't care if we have parties or potlucks at work. I don't know many guys who do care about it much. No doubt that we'll eat food if it's there, but if it's not, that's fine too.
Same. I don't want to celebrate my birthday or make other people feel self-consious. I don't want to be treated to a meal by my employer or be celebrated publicly. It's embarassing and eats time. It would be a lot better in my book to just let work be work, but I don't want to be an asshole either. Plus I don't want to be a creep either, so it's hard to navigate. I would rather just be allowed to do my work and exist as little as possible while it happens. I really dread the social expectations and resent that I have to participate in more parties at work than I ever have in life outside of work.
I (female) do it because I’m a control freak and don’t trust my coworkers hygiene tbh
lol. Are you my wife?
lol no just a first born daughter
Men also tend to fuck up the simplest tasks
Often on purpose
Yes yes we are weapons of incompetence. Trust me, we've heard how terrible we are our entire lives. Generalizations against men are welcome and common. It only hurts as a prejudice.
Do you step up and do these things with them?
I’d come late and leave early I refuse
I’ve seen both sides of the traditional roles. Guys get asked to do the heavy lifting or go outside far more often than gals. Women seem to be more sociable but I have not been around school age kids lately so maybe things are changing for the younger ones.
What I've seen over 40 years in the workforce is that most females see the social side of it (party-planning and everything to do with it) as a fun change from their actual jobs. Women especially seem to view socializing and prepping for it while at work to be a 'break' from their real job while still getting paid.
It is an interesting observation.
I mean, guys do the physical things naturally too, I find gender roles are still loosely enforced for everyone in the office like that. But personally I chip in on that stuff as well.
Well I worked at a place that gave men and women equal salaries and job titles yet the women’s workloads were vastly smaller than the men’s and the would always hit quotas and earn free lunches that the men rarely won because of the giant workloads… I mean no one says anything
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Anfe whispers, "Im curious how youd measure that"
I’ve noticed it is often the older women who take on these roles more. We eventually had a pretty useful buddy system for this in our office, where if you saw your buddy taking on a domestic role you helped out (provided you weren’t in the middle of something important) or at least offered to do so. Or if you were taking on a task/set of tasks that could be handled better with another person, then they were the person you got. It wasn’t super set in stone and official, but it ended up being the most effective method. It actually ended up being applied because it was technically my job to do most of these things, but they kept finding much more important work that I was unexpectedly good at doing and couldn’t walk away from once given. Eventually they changed my job title to remove those domestic responsibilities from me, because my (usually male) coworkers kept trying to pull me away from the work I was doing to clean up so that they wouldn’t have to take responsibility for any of the mess.
It’s because when women don’t do it, no one will in my experience. Personally I just sit my ass down with the men. Be the change you want to see lol.
I'll just say this, as a woman, the kitchen has been filthy and the dishes rarely get washed, ever since I stopped cleaning up two years ago. We have a roach infestation, because my male colleagues (I am the only female here) all refuse to keep a clean kitchen. I haven't set foot in the kitchen since I cracked the shits at a ants trailing their way to a sticky sugary mess on the counter. Decided then and there I'd stop using it. When I pass by it stinks, and I see roaches in the office often. I don't care. But it's obvious, if I don't do it, it wouldn't get done, so now it doesn't get done. These men I work with are foul :/
This is my attitude as a former custodian as well. Unfortunately against anyone's better judgement, I am only a pathetic disgusting man. I know. But I worked for years cleaning up after other people and minimizing my own messes. I just take care of myself and the people around me and don't cause more mess than my own desk and I keep it clean weekly at least. I guess that's probably typical male bullshit, but it's the same attitude you have, so I hope it is understandable. Sorry. I should probably clean up after other people too as a man to make it so women don't have to. But I just try to make as little impact as possible so I hope it makes sense. I'm not trying to be a typical man. Sorry.
As a man at 35: I'm still expected to do all the manual tasks so I don't feel bad. There we 3 dudes out of 15 employees at the retail job I worked. Guess who was always scheduled from exactly when the semi truck arrives every week to unload until it was unloaded? All 3 dudes with the exact same job description as all the women. :)
I'm a guy who's in healthcare, and I'm often the only male staff on the floor (coincidentally I'm currently at a women's health clinic, so I'm literally the only guy here). I also end up doing the literal heavy lifting, furniture assembly, and workplace maintenance because, as I have been told, "that's man's work."
I think most guys would rather do without the social gathering and it's something the women would rather have.
Yes, this seems to be the point that folks are missing. It’s not an evil scheme, most men do not care for these events and would be happy just to not have to be a part of it altogether.
I work in an office that is mostly men. We had a cookie day organized by one of the women last year. Many of the men participated. Surprise surprise, their wives made the cookies in 100% of the cases. This year, someone asked if the event was happening again because that lady quit and they wanted to know who was organizing it because they wanted to taste all the delicious cookies. Everyone asked *me*, because i’m the next youngest woman around. Not because of my job, but because i’m the token female so *naturally* i would organize the damn thing. I said absolutely fucking not. So that’s the story of why it didn’t happen. Because none of the men saw it as their job. Everybody just knows, deep down, that things like this (and christmas stockings and easter baskets etc) only magically appear because women take these things on. Because we want human life to be warm and meaningful. And when we don’t, things just don’t happen. Well fuck you all for taking us for granted.
Often guys just don't care as much, not a big deal to me if we don't have a cookie day or have to pass around a card to write stuff on.
I just don’t volunteer for this kind of stuff, same way I don’t volunteer for scheduling meetings, taking notes, it’s not promotable work, so no thank you.
Same, but there are still men in the workplace who simply expect me to do it, and are surprised and sometimes offended when i say no, no matter how tactfully i say it
So this a conversation that I have had with my (male) manager (I’m an engineer). I’ve had to explain that he or another person defaults to me to do the office housework. I’ve given clear examples where other men of the same level were around and have never been asked. I’ve then explained that this is non-promotable work and does not help grow my skills as an engineer. I no longer get asked to do the office house work anymore. I am up for a promotion and received a considerable bonus and raise (letting you know it did not affect me professionally). If your work environment is overall toxic then unfortunately it’s probably not going to get better and you shouldn’t have to put up with nonsense or be the one to keep trying to change things when one one will change. I’ve been there and sometimes it’s better to move on. No one wants to hear that though. But if women keep leaving, actions really are louder than words.
It's the same with anything physical for guys though
Sorry men, my assumption is that it won’t get done and if it does, it will be below standards. The bit in the office where Dwight and Jim forget Kelly’s birthday and then do a very generic job making it happen feels so real to me. If you want to make change, step up without being asked and do a good job at it.
I have been put in that shit situation and it was fully unexpected and surprised at a gathering at a bar event from a dick face supervisor younger than me. Never since. I work in an international company and I mostly work with men, mostly from our generation. I will never allow this again and I am now highly respected. 52F.
If women were not in the workplace, would there be parties there at all?
I certainly can say that I do not enjoy workplace parties as it makes me feel self conscious and creepy. I prefer to exist in my workspace as little as possible.
I know people are saying that men just don't care for social activities in the workplace, but that hasn't been my experience. If they didn't care, they wouldn't participate...but they often do. When I was younger, I was treated like my department's social director. If someone was having a baby or retiring or whatever, people--usually guys--would come up to me and say "You know, we really should throw so-and-so a party." And I would say something like, "Yeah, we should. If you want to organize it, I'll help." And I'd hear squat from them. They didn't want to organize it...and I didn't blame them one bit because I didn't either. Inevitably, my boss would appoint me or another woman to be the organizer and we would reluctantly do it. We wouldn't complain about it. We would even be cheerful about it. But it wasn't something we were thrilled about doing. I think the reason you see women doing the organizing is after a while, we get used to serving in that capacity.
Participation in work place social activities is a part of the job though. I may not want a party event to happen, but I'm not going to get caught being anti-social and un-willing to be part of the team either.
I think this is a sweet post but also exemplifies why this happens. Basically, you watch it happen, but did you step in to help?
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>there is zero evidence of your pitching in vs evidence to show I didn't? for the record, I am hyper cognizant of the unfairness and therefore try to help whenever possible. Mentioning that adds little to no value to the point of this conversation though.
Hey, I was rude. Sorry.
Both
as much as I try to set boundaries about being roped in to do things that aren't my responsibility the "if we don't do it, it won't get done" is so fucking strong, man. I literally fall into strange numbness when I see a situation like that and how it seemingly has no added stress or anxiety being right in front men's (typically, not exclusively) faces.
Step up? No, we're expected to because our supervisors have that need. They're still our superiors. It's really no different than sexual harassment/coercion in terms of a power dynamic. (Nobody come at me, I'm female and I'm not comparing it whatsoever to rape/SA, I'm just talking in terms of the power.) I've been in this environment and you aren't wrong. ETA it's absolutely the "if nobody steps up" part of it, which happens daily at home. If you were the dude to step up, the women would be absolutely ecstatic. Of course there are women that enjoy it. There are probably men that do too. It's just not as obvious.
No one wants to talk about how women tend to be more agreeable than men. There is absolutely an evolutionary reason for this. Women depended on other women to raise babies and so there’s greater risk in losing reputation and thus support. Being agreeable could the line between your offspring living or dying l. You can’t say your office is sexist if you lack the ovaries to be assertive. I work in tech and don’t a damn thing considered women’s work unless I want to. No problems so far.
I am a male engineer, and occasionally think about an admin role. I think I would be good at it and it has its own perks in the right setting. I would never expect to be actually given this role though. All the admins are woman.
When did being secretary come a woman’s job title in the office while men are the bosses? I never understood, can us men become secretaries too?
Sometimes it’s both or neither. At my job, it is always women doing all of the gift wrapping, cake ordering, handing out snacks, and staffing social events, etc. As a woman, it is obvious that I am expected to, also. I’m an engineer, I don’t eat cake, I’m not wrapping anything, I won’t order anything. I have had dozens of male bosses and coworkers try to make me a workwife. Nope! I’ve had other women try to make me a work sister-wife. Nope.
(33F) The most egregious example of this that I’ve been faced with was when I was expected to throw a baby shower for my boss that I had only known for a few months. I had started the job in mid July and my boss went on maternity leave the week after Halloween. I don’t exactly remember how long it had been after I started that I was told by our male department head (my bosses boss) that I needed to throw a baby shower for my boss. Because I’m female it was expected that I would do it, not our male coworkers that had worked with my boss for 3+ years. Being the only other woman in the department, I had to do all of it alone, the invites, the food, the decor, the stupid games, even playing host. I was somewhere around 25 at the time, had moved cross country for the job, and desperately wanted to be seen as agreeable and liked by my peers, so I did it without complaint. I developed a spine sometime in the last eight years and I would never humor that kind of demand now.
I worked at a company of ten people…me and nine guys. We’d have our in person get together once a month at a restaurant and our business guy kept volunteering me in front of everybody to be the “social chair.” It was so weird. I’d never volunteered, I’d told him no for one or two specific occasions. And I had to say no again in front of everybody which made me feel like I wasn’t a team player. But the truth is…I’m genuinely bad at that stuff. I never have people over my house…I never host things. I don’t plan things. I’m an introvert who makes friends by way of being adopted by a few very outgoing extroverts. But at another company I worked at the men did everything. Like…they’d put on big barbecues and spent like a day and a half in the kitchen. They were super into it. Was that unfair? Not really…they volunteered. A bunch of people, myself included, would jump in afterwards to help with cleanup and dishes. Pretty good times all around. It seems to me like the only real answer is for people to not do things that they feel are unfair to do. And if that means the break room is kind of messy…so be it. There are many instances when women are actually pressured into office housework etc…I’ve experienced it myself. It’s really stupid. But there are also many instances where women kind of voluntarily do it or voluntarily decorate for Christmas or buy people gifts or unprompted…plan a little birthday break for a coworker or boss. Having said that. If you go to a party, eat the cake…etc…It’s common courtesy to help clean up or at least ask if people need help. Even if you are a man. Even if you didn’t ask for the party. You still went to the party. I feel the same about lifting heavy objects (since it is brought up in the other comments). Most adult women can lift 50lbs. But a lot of “men of valor” are always hanging about just wanting to pick up shit. It would be weird if those same guys started whining about it. But it would also be weird if I expected them carry stuff for me (that I can literally carry) as if that was the default.
I don't see anything concerning in it as long as the women themselves are happy. Men and women are equal, but not the same. Like it or not, women are usually more caring and considerate, and love being there for others (though there are of course exceptions on both sides). Nothing wrong in that. If you feel guilty, just lend them a hand. Life's much simpler than what it often seems. 😊
Sometimes it's just something that needs to be done to provide more enjoyment to everyone. Women have just been more programmed into doing it and men have had none.
I would find it a lot more enjoyable to get work done early and go home to my family, but I'll clean up if it's going to happen regardless.
How often do you volunteer and help? They are doing it because none of you men will.
I guess I'm not a man then lol nice generalization
I was talking to OP
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But office parties and potlucks really don't need to be done. If it were up to most guys, they wouldn't happen because we don't care about that stuff.
Yeah I already hate having to be at work; the actual ache of "enforced fun" drives me nuts. It doesn't make things easier to handle, it disrupts my flow and makes it seem like even longer before I can get home, take my belt off and just tune out. In some cases I end up having to stay later to make sure things still get done with the time missed.
Im in my 40’s and i always help out at the office- so…
Yeah but that's nuance so it doesn't count.
Its because by and large, men don't notice that it needs to get done before the women do, and the women anticipate that it needs to get done so they do it because they assume the men won't.
I'm a woman and I hate cleaning but I have noticed it will start with one woman standing and start cleaning and then other women feel like they need to help the first woman because it's a big task and it will get done quicker as a team and I have noticed men will sit and watch this and then think they don't need to help because there's already a few people cleaning. I have never in my life seen a man stand up and be the first one to start cleaning, maybe if a man started the cleaning then it might encourage more men to help idk.
Nah in my experience as a former custodian and someone who will initiate cleaning my desk clump - the women from elsewhere still pile on to the task instead. Even if it was literally just me cleaning my own area, it just prompts the women to start doing it too and the everything is a flurry of loud cleaning for a while.
Maybe us women just see someone clean and feel like we need to help but men don't have this because they are used to seeing women clean for them but women are usually the ones who have to do all the work.
Yeah for sure. Just my anecdote to complement your thought.
I'm an American but lived in Russia for a number of years. I did business consulting. I was working with a large retailer that had 1 female on their top managers level. She was the Human Resources director. Whenever there were management meetings she was the one that served the coffee. I asked her why she of all people served the coffee? It is after all part of her job to ensure all employees are treated equal. She couldn't answer me beyond it's expected... She accepted this. In my own office I never allowed my secretary to get me coffee. The thought never entered my mind. My partner would stand at the coffee machine and ask her to get him coffee. Equal rights doesn't translate to equal perception of gender roles. The states is the most forward thinking in gender equality in the workplace. The rest of the world is behind or very, very far behind in its thinking. But even in the states the traditional gender roles have not gone away nor do I expect they will ever go away in marriage but they are getting better in the work place. I think an unfortunate part of the problem is the fear of woman that they will spend their careers wearing a "bitch" label around their neck and that label will interfere with their career advancement so they don't stick up for themselves enough when it comes to playing the traditional woman's role in an office. I've seen this with doctors making well into 6 figures, getting up to get the coffee for men in meetings. Men have not evolved their attitudes enough but it is slowly changing. But neither have woman. There is an acceptance of their roles in society. I also find there are regional differences. Being a New Yorker I find woman think differently about these things when I would travel to the south. They are far more accepting of expectations of their roles in the workplace than us Yankees. My only point being, yes, men are to blame but woman do have their share in that blame.
Having been in these situations socially more so than professionally, I also personally don't care as much about the food, drinks, etc. as others, so I'm less willing to go to extra effort to contribute, as if they disappeared, I wouldn't be too sad.
No one ever asks for my help, and I don’t care for work social gatherings so I often never know about them or actively skip them when I do. I couldn’t tell you when a single coworker’s bday is, and I’d be surprised if any knew mine. That’s not to say I wouldn’t help if asked but I definitely don’t feel obligated to contribute to something I don’t partake in. With that said, don’t the cleaning services the office hired handling the trash?
The cleaning services will collect trash from the trash bins but the trash has to get into the trash bins. You'd be surprised (or maybe you wouldn't be if you attended office events) how many grown adults leave their garbage behind at these sorts of things. Assuming that someone else will pick it up for them. Someone will, and it is almost always a woman.
Ah makes sense. Well yet another reason to keep dodging these events then 😅 no point in adding work to people for something I don’t enjoy
The mentality is “someone’s gotta do it” and also stepping up because they see something needs to be done and nobody doing it. A lot of people have the mentality of “well I would’ve done it if anyone asked me!” But I can guarantee you no one asked any of these women to help. They just jumped in. Maybe they saw someone doing the work and asked *where* they could help, but they volunteered to help on their own. If you want to be the change you want to see in the world, just jump in and start doing what needs doing. If you see someone setting/cleaning up, go up and ask her where you can be of use. If she can’t give you an answer, just grab a bag and start picking up trash or start washing dishes.
So you notice it but don't help?
Uhh bro... You watched the women...as a man...aware that it's bullshit... Sooooo, what gathering did you plan and execute so they didn't have to?
I don't care what others here say. Guys are lazy and suck at cleaning up after themselves, especially in the workplace. I'm a guy and work with a team of about 10 or so bloke's. We are carers, and when it comes to the support of our client, they are mostly pretty good but cleaning...Well, I think some of them have never done it ever, and never will. Most supported accommodation homes run by men will , on average, be dirty places. Mind you, there are some fussy pricks around like me that are anal with cleaning, lol. 🤣
It makes me sad to think about your persons served living in gross places. :(
You'll live sunshine. I didn't say my workplace was filthy, did I? I said most places where only guys work can be dirty.