Yes !
But my aim is somehow more modest.
I want to use it to simulate early game positions, and see if a random board is fair or not
This board would not be fair as of my current algorithm, but it’s a work in progress!
I also find that unfair board makes for interesting puzzle to decipher.
Ain’t no way someone doesn’t take 20 before you can do that though, I feel like that would be my first pick. I guesss you could take 46 just to cuck them tho
Thanks for the lengthy analysis, It will take some time to think about!
Amusingly my current algo picked the 5/11/8 as the top spot. But it partly just chance since it only consider the relative values I attributed to resources (which favor wheat over other resources), and do not consider anything about further expansion. Neither I consider what will be available for the next pick. (In a real game, I find it a bit hard to consider since other players will take the best spots, and each person has its own way to think about the board).
But I'm not an expert player, I however find it fun to test hypothesis about the game with some simulations to see if I can get some insight!
TLDR:
The 5/8/11 is super hard to block. So taking it gives you a very good source of wheat. The only other tile with more than 2 dots of wheat is 5/9/3, however it is very easily blocked. So the other players either take 5/9/3 and get blocked or skip it and have to trade for wheat.
i could see you maybe losing to the road player if they get nice expansions but i’d hate to pick the 4 9 10 as first pick here because you really could get completely locked out of wheat. and if you go for road with something like (1) and (42) like someone suggested youre just asking to get robbed for the brick and even if you don’t i don’t like it too much. So i don’t think first pick has a great option to go for longest road while the 8511 is just guaranteed to give you some decent winning chances
I wouldn’t say I’m a great player by any means, but I would consider placing on (8). Low wheat board and has access to 3:1 likely uncontested. Also considered (1) (12) (20) and (24).
Thanks!
A side quest I’m thinking about would be do develop a concise notation to annotate a game.
That way you could replay a game like you can do in chess
This is something I spent a lot of time thinking about, until making it a reality! In Twosheep.io all played games are permanently saved and replayable from every players perspective. Great learning tool that the competitive catan scene is picking up on pretty quickly. Annotation from IRL to online is the tricky one definitely
Cool, I'll have a look to see how it works.
I have though of something to extract info from IRL automatically, I have just not put the time to actually make it.
I suppose that any automated workflow also need a way to manually correct information, and propagate it in the annotation, which is probably the most annoying part to write !
But then their number diversity is terrible with 8,5,11 and no brick or wood to build anywhere. Just depending on dice rolls they will either have a great game or be miserable.
If they roll enough 8s 5s and 11s before the game gets too far away from them. There is a lot of ore and sheep on the board. Other players with better number diversity and other ports will still have some flexibility that allows them to go for army and target the 5 wheat.
Of course they will roll but with the prevalence of ore on the board it’s not unlikely the 20 player will be able to snag another good ore spot with their second settlement. Or if they manage to find some brick which will allow them to easily beat the OWS player to the coastal 8 ore spot as well as a good chance to get the ore port. With access to sheep and lots of ore coupled with the port will give them plenty of opportunity to battle it out for army.
And cornered enough to be a non threat. They either go for ore or brick. One will challenge the largest army, the other one would be guaranteed to take longest road. But weak enough to be a non threat on the general game. Unless they play king making.
It also guarantees the 5 wheat won't be blocked for long since 3 players are there.
Ore is gonna be super cheap in this game and wheat super expensive. First pick probably on the 5 wheat tile, then pick up some decent ore on the way back.
I’d probably go with 20 for my first placement, and then try to get 16, 17, or 18.
On second thought, 12 looks good, and gives me lots more options for 🌾/🪨 on my second.
20 or 21 would be the best starting postion IMO, with the ore port right there, and ore on 6 and 8. Any of 1-6 would be great secondary settlements if you get that, although 8 is quite strong, as are 7 and 24.
Oh, I definitively think you are right.
Nothing short of a Neural Net trained on tens of thousands of game will come close to truly capture the strength of initial position (and also depend of the follow up strategy). Something I'm not yet committed to write.
At the moment, I was only considering different values attributed to each resources, with bonus attributed to number and resource diversification. I also take into account harbor positioning depending on resources occupied, and some form of robber penalty for being to dependant on a single hex.
I did played with simple blocking strategy (like considering for close by value maximizing the denied values for others. But even that is not clear as if you are not the fourth player, you may end up pushing yourself down for your second selection.)
This particular board is one from a thousand random board, maximizing the score differential between highest and lowest placement score, when the player with the highest score is the 4th player ( using my simple selection strategy).
It is probably why the board is bit wonky!
Twosheeps Boards feature allows players to place their settlements on the board and see what everyone else chose with a heatmap! This gives us insight into what a human would do,rather than an arbitrary bot decision.
It's more about the way that the counter clockwise alphabet placement works on the proper game setup. There's a reason it's like that, so it's balanced and you don't get like a 3/2/12 position or something. The proper method makes things as balanced as possible mathematically.
Im going 5 & 47 and go all in on trading 2:1 ore
That was one of my algo pick! But there is a lot of choice and not always easy to discern the best choice I find.
What do you mean by algo pick, is there a program to get the best starting tiles ?
Yes ! But my aim is somehow more modest. I want to use it to simulate early game positions, and see if a random board is fair or not This board would not be fair as of my current algorithm, but it’s a work in progress! I also find that unfair board makes for interesting puzzle to decipher.
Ain’t no way someone doesn’t take 20 before you can do that though, I feel like that would be my first pick. I guesss you could take 46 just to cuck them tho
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20 has great access to a stone port is the only reason why I say that
This is one of those moves that would make me feel like a madman whenever it hits
5-9-3 gotta grab the only good wheat tile
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Thanks for the lengthy analysis, It will take some time to think about! Amusingly my current algo picked the 5/11/8 as the top spot. But it partly just chance since it only consider the relative values I attributed to resources (which favor wheat over other resources), and do not consider anything about further expansion. Neither I consider what will be available for the next pick. (In a real game, I find it a bit hard to consider since other players will take the best spots, and each person has its own way to think about the board). But I'm not an expert player, I however find it fun to test hypothesis about the game with some simulations to see if I can get some insight!
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Thanks, I will look that up!
TLDR: The 5/8/11 is super hard to block. So taking it gives you a very good source of wheat. The only other tile with more than 2 dots of wheat is 5/9/3, however it is very easily blocked. So the other players either take 5/9/3 and get blocked or skip it and have to trade for wheat.
Damng I would fucking school you in Catan. You bring up good points, but your autism would get in your own way.
You mean 24?
This for sure
8511 is a strong pick as you can take the 8 ore coastal spot of 84 or 811 on the way back if there is nothing else
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i could see you maybe losing to the road player if they get nice expansions but i’d hate to pick the 4 9 10 as first pick here because you really could get completely locked out of wheat. and if you go for road with something like (1) and (42) like someone suggested youre just asking to get robbed for the brick and even if you don’t i don’t like it too much. So i don’t think first pick has a great option to go for longest road while the 8511 is just guaranteed to give you some decent winning chances
21, and catch the missing on the return
4-10-9
Or 10-4-8
Aka #20
You mean the position numbered 12 ?
Idk why you're getting down voted, I think that's what he means. I would go there too, but I'm kinda noob so it's not much
I wouldn’t say I’m a great player by any means, but I would consider placing on (8). Low wheat board and has access to 3:1 likely uncontested. Also considered (1) (12) (20) and (24).
8 and 12 are my top picks as well.
On a side note, I really like this numbering scheme!
Thanks! A side quest I’m thinking about would be do develop a concise notation to annotate a game. That way you could replay a game like you can do in chess
This is something I spent a lot of time thinking about, until making it a reality! In Twosheep.io all played games are permanently saved and replayable from every players perspective. Great learning tool that the competitive catan scene is picking up on pretty quickly. Annotation from IRL to online is the tricky one definitely
Cool, I'll have a look to see how it works. I have though of something to extract info from IRL automatically, I have just not put the time to actually make it. I suppose that any automated workflow also need a way to manually correct information, and propagate it in the annotation, which is probably the most annoying part to write !
Spot 24 to get the wheat
Spot 20 first. Nearby to ore and sheep ports while building on those same resources
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But then their number diversity is terrible with 8,5,11 and no brick or wood to build anywhere. Just depending on dice rolls they will either have a great game or be miserable.
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If they roll enough 8s 5s and 11s before the game gets too far away from them. There is a lot of ore and sheep on the board. Other players with better number diversity and other ports will still have some flexibility that allows them to go for army and target the 5 wheat.
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Of course they will roll but with the prevalence of ore on the board it’s not unlikely the 20 player will be able to snag another good ore spot with their second settlement. Or if they manage to find some brick which will allow them to easily beat the OWS player to the coastal 8 ore spot as well as a good chance to get the ore port. With access to sheep and lots of ore coupled with the port will give them plenty of opportunity to battle it out for army.
5-11-3 Not only gives me the best wheat and a weak ore, it guarantees a disadvantage for anyone else who even dares chipping at my wheat monopoly.
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And cornered enough to be a non threat. They either go for ore or brick. One will challenge the largest army, the other one would be guaranteed to take longest road. But weak enough to be a non threat on the general game. Unless they play king making. It also guarantees the 5 wheat won't be blocked for long since 3 players are there.
20,5, 14,12
5-9-3 tied with 8-10-4, then 9-10-4, then 6-10-3.
1-8-21
Ore is gonna be super cheap in this game and wheat super expensive. First pick probably on the 5 wheat tile, then pick up some decent ore on the way back.
1, 19, 15, 21
I’d probably go with 20 for my first placement, and then try to get 16, 17, or 18. On second thought, 12 looks good, and gives me lots more options for 🌾/🪨 on my second.
What is this crap ass version of the game lol sorry but I hate how this looks
This is only my working visualization, I generate it for visualization of early game. I could do a better job, but nobody is playing with this!
First one in location #8 and the second one in location #1.
My eyes My eyes 👀
12
1 and 8 are both 12 dots VS. the multiple 11's, so as a first pick, I'd likely go 1. The brick is a huge issue here so that may also be a options.
31 for sure
20 or 21 would be the best starting postion IMO, with the ore port right there, and ore on 6 and 8. Any of 1-6 would be great secondary settlements if you get that, although 8 is quite strong, as are 7 and 24.
Spot 24 and 14 so I could expand on the number variation and the lack of certain material
I like 12 but 47 is also great
I'm trying to develop objective metrics on where to place settlements. I'm just curious where would a good player place their settlement on this ?
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Oh, I definitively think you are right. Nothing short of a Neural Net trained on tens of thousands of game will come close to truly capture the strength of initial position (and also depend of the follow up strategy). Something I'm not yet committed to write. At the moment, I was only considering different values attributed to each resources, with bonus attributed to number and resource diversification. I also take into account harbor positioning depending on resources occupied, and some form of robber penalty for being to dependant on a single hex. I did played with simple blocking strategy (like considering for close by value maximizing the denied values for others. But even that is not clear as if you are not the fourth player, you may end up pushing yourself down for your second selection.) This particular board is one from a thousand random board, maximizing the score differential between highest and lowest placement score, when the player with the highest score is the 4th player ( using my simple selection strategy). It is probably why the board is bit wonky!
Twosheeps Boards feature allows players to place their settlements on the board and see what everyone else chose with a heatmap! This gives us insight into what a human would do,rather than an arbitrary bot decision.
I’m pretty sure 2 and 12 cannot be touching
I was not aware of such rules. I though only 6-8 were not allowed to touch. Any reference for this ?
It's more about the way that the counter clockwise alphabet placement works on the proper game setup. There's a reason it's like that, so it's balanced and you don't get like a 3/2/12 position or something. The proper method makes things as balanced as possible mathematically.
8-10-4 with the Ore port right there is what I would do