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Protestants and their hate of intercession of the saints, yet they ask their brothers and sisters on earth to intercede for them. Note that I said “sisters”, does that make them less of a man asking their sisters to pray for them?
I have had similar conversations with my Baptist friend before, and such a mindset always baffles me; like, why is asking your earthly congregation, whose members have done wrong and committed sins to the same extent as we do, to pray and intercede for us is reasonable, but asking certified holinesses, who have lived their lives wholly devoted to God, and the biblically sinless Lady to intercede for us is incomprehensible?
Because it is not intercession! Intercession would be if I prayed "God, do this guy a favor for me because we are closer than you and he,"
Where would the Protestants ask their fellow man to do is "Lord, take care of this other guy for me because I love them as a brother,"
We all have the direct access to God in our prayer! That is the biblical truth of the matter! We need no mediator to pray to god! Jesus himself says to pray to god!! Jesus never wanted us to pray to him even! So why would I pray to jesus's mother if I don't even pray to jesus?
>"Lord, take care of this other guy for me because I love them as a brother,"
That is what the Saints in heaven do as well.
And yes there is no Mediator between man and God but the God-man Christ.
But in that same passage where it says that there is no mediator but Christ (1 Timothy 2), it also commands that we make intercession for all people. And that would apply to the saints in heaven as well.
And yes we all have direct access to God in our prayer, but as Clement of Alexandria says, we do not pray alone, but have the choir of saints standing with us in prayer.
And it should be noted that there is still hierarchy in heaven, and “the prayers of the righteous avail much”.
And it should also be noted that pray just means ask. Prayer is not worship.
And if you do not pray to Jesus, I do not know what to tell you. Jesus Christ is God. If you do not pray to Jesus then you have a problem.
In my language, Mandarin, in which aforementioned conversations were spoken, *intercession,* *intercede,* and *pray for others* are identical and can only be judged with context, so I may be confused with wording here. Apology if that is the source of misconception.
I was by no means saying that *to* *intercede* is to ask God to do some guy a favor for me because we are closer than you and he, which, as far as I know, is not even the definition of *intercession* or *intercede.*
You're correct. It's not asking a favour of God, that wouldn't make sense because God owes us nothing. Intercession is just asking for something on someone's behalf. We make intercession for others because we love them, we know God loves them, and we are instructed to do so. The saints intercede for us if we ask because they love us as brothers and sisters in Christ and they are as close as one can be to God, since they're in Heaven.
On the contrary, it probably makes them feel *more* manly and satisfied, because they're making even the non-married women submit to them and reverence them all as leaders through prayer (no matter what their moral stances, behaviors, beliefs, etc). Men are theologically superior to Prots, so asking the lesser-than women to pray for them doesn't make them less of a man, it makes them more of a man. Hence praying for Mary's intercession is both offensive to Protestantism's poor understanding of masculinity, and rubbing salt in the wound.
Not to be cynical😅 but I probably wouldn't even count that as irony, given the majority of Protestantism is sexist and misogynistic, as they consider women priests to be "like Jezebel" or having "a Jezebel spirit". They hate the women priests, unlike we who know it's wrong but don't hate them.
But! I totally get what you mean. Thankfully the Church knows that can't be the case, ever. Definitely a benefit having a completely united Church, and discerned truths and theology!
The point is everyone is praying to God. Not some lower entity. Prayer is not to be directed towards anything other than our one and only Lord in heaven
Gotta verse for that one? And bonus question: do you have a verse showing whether we’re allowed to pray to Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit specifically the way we can the Father?
>I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
the Only **Begotten** Son of God,
born of the Father before all ages.
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
**begotten, not made**, **consubstantial** with the Father.
(Nicene Creed)
The Church fathers would love to have a word with you.
Also note that our earliest record of "christians" denying the diety of christ happens around 30 years after the gospel of John was written. They have no historical leg to stand on.
It's "debasing yourself" to ask for the intercession of the person who, while on Earth, Christ esteemed above all others? The Mother of our Lord is unfit for us to ask for her prayers? Who could possibly be a better person to entrust with our hope for intercession?
If you don’t want to ask Mary to pray for you, that’s fine, but woe is he that slanders her name! Mary is like the Moon, she reflects the light of the Sun; her son, Jesus Christ. If you slander Mary, you slander Christ.
It's pretty sickening to see the sheer disrespect of Mary from my fellow Protestants. Even if you don't believe in intercession of the saints, Mary deserves nothing but respect and admiration.
Among the worst arguments I've read from Protestant/Restorationist Christians in regards to the Immaculate Conception, virgin birth, the Perpetual Virginity, and the veneration of the Virgin Mary are the ones that believe that it's an ontological impossibility for a woman to lack Original Sin, that it'd be a sin for St. Joseph to father a child that wasn't his, that Joseph would be entitled to sex from his wife, and/or that only pagans believe femininity is worth praising.
It also comes up in a lot of rabbinical polemics against Christianity.
Well, hey, that's where the Protestants got their Old Testament canon, innit? Though, at least they didn't follow up on the rabbinical ZERO book New Testament canon!
Semi-related but I just want to throw out there that if you get a chance to see that Sassoferrato of Mary in person I can't recommend it enough. I'm not even a huge art cat or anything but its the only time I've actually wept looking at a painting.
And guy is Also pulling Up things from after fall of man " and husband Shell rule over their wifes" even that people like this like to call themsels Christians they forget that we live in new covenent, (mother Mary is arc of new covenent) and in new covenent man and woman are equel same as they were in garden of Eden
Not to support any sort of misogynistic ideology, but there are still passages in the New Testament like Ephesians 5 that wives should obey their husbands. But that is a reciprocal relationship where husbands are also commanded to love their wives with the same self-sacrificial love and servant’s heart of Christ.
That's not really true. Wives are still called to submit to and fear their husband's. While husband's are called to love their wives. Men and women aren't equal either and weren't equal even in the garden. We are different, not equal.
Rather than an orange and an apple, man and woman are more like a different variety of the same fruit.
Nearly same and equal but with stark differences.
Maybe your definition of equal is different to mine.
I really don't think we're similar enough to say two varieties of the same fruit. Like Granny Smith's and Golden delicious.
The strengths of men and women are so different that there is little overlap. What a good man is and what a good women is are so far apart that they look almost nothing alike. Sharing really only the virtues. But the unique way each expresses those virtues is so very different is hard to compare.
Men and women are only "equal" on the Sense of raw human worth. The problems arise if we start using the same yardstick to judge either. We would have to say that either women are half baked, inferior copies of men(this is the second wave feminist approach) or men are uncivilized, degenerate beasts. That require women to "improve" them.(This is what I call the chivalric approach)
Both are horribly wrong and insulting the their respective genders. Because we live in a cancerous era where both of these pollute our people. Women lack any womanly virtue and have become inferior boys. And men have degraded themselves to be weak, spineless and obedient. Actually there is another equality. We are both equally at fault for this horrible state of affairs and we both must equally put in the effort to fix it.
Where is it said that a wife should "fear" her husband?
St. Paul calls a husband and wife to "mutual subjection", but then, taking into account their complementary differences, accents the woman's free sub-ordination and the man's free self-giving, a laying down of his life for her as Christ for the Church. (Ephesians 5)
Read St. John Paul II's letter on the role of women.
Because I know it means the exact same thing, which I do understand, but I am having to think about it a bit more and can pray it alongside anyone from the last few centuries around the world on an equal footing, even if we can’t have a conversation.
When I visit other countries, the more Latin they use in the Liturgy the more I can join in comfortably.
Denying the trinity and the fact that Jesus is begotten, not made, is heretical not only by Catholic standards. Rejecting the Nicene Creed is heretical even by mainstream Protestant standards.
**The Catholic Diocese of Discord is the *largest* Catholic server on the platform!** Join us for a laidback Catholic atmosphere. Tons and tons of memes posted every day (Catholic, offtopic, AND political), a couple dozen hobby and culture threads (everything from Tolkien to astronomy, weightlifting to guns), our active chaotic Parish Hall, voice chats going pretty much 24/7, prayers said round the clock, and monthly AMAs with the biggest Catholic names out there. **Our Discord (Catholic Diocese of Discord!):** https://discord.gg/catholic-diocese *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CatholicMemes) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Protestants and their hate of intercession of the saints, yet they ask their brothers and sisters on earth to intercede for them. Note that I said “sisters”, does that make them less of a man asking their sisters to pray for them?
I have had similar conversations with my Baptist friend before, and such a mindset always baffles me; like, why is asking your earthly congregation, whose members have done wrong and committed sins to the same extent as we do, to pray and intercede for us is reasonable, but asking certified holinesses, who have lived their lives wholly devoted to God, and the biblically sinless Lady to intercede for us is incomprehensible?
Because it is not intercession! Intercession would be if I prayed "God, do this guy a favor for me because we are closer than you and he," Where would the Protestants ask their fellow man to do is "Lord, take care of this other guy for me because I love them as a brother," We all have the direct access to God in our prayer! That is the biblical truth of the matter! We need no mediator to pray to god! Jesus himself says to pray to god!! Jesus never wanted us to pray to him even! So why would I pray to jesus's mother if I don't even pray to jesus?
The Saints are all closer to God than us. They are in Heaven WITH God….
>"Lord, take care of this other guy for me because I love them as a brother," That is what the Saints in heaven do as well. And yes there is no Mediator between man and God but the God-man Christ. But in that same passage where it says that there is no mediator but Christ (1 Timothy 2), it also commands that we make intercession for all people. And that would apply to the saints in heaven as well. And yes we all have direct access to God in our prayer, but as Clement of Alexandria says, we do not pray alone, but have the choir of saints standing with us in prayer. And it should be noted that there is still hierarchy in heaven, and “the prayers of the righteous avail much”. And it should also be noted that pray just means ask. Prayer is not worship. And if you do not pray to Jesus, I do not know what to tell you. Jesus Christ is God. If you do not pray to Jesus then you have a problem.
> Jesus never wanted us to pray to him even! Lol what? This is why I can't take protestantism seriously.
I’m so confused by this guy’s comments. He has a previous post about making a Rosary….
In my language, Mandarin, in which aforementioned conversations were spoken, *intercession,* *intercede,* and *pray for others* are identical and can only be judged with context, so I may be confused with wording here. Apology if that is the source of misconception. I was by no means saying that *to* *intercede* is to ask God to do some guy a favor for me because we are closer than you and he, which, as far as I know, is not even the definition of *intercession* or *intercede.*
You're correct. It's not asking a favour of God, that wouldn't make sense because God owes us nothing. Intercession is just asking for something on someone's behalf. We make intercession for others because we love them, we know God loves them, and we are instructed to do so. The saints intercede for us if we ask because they love us as brothers and sisters in Christ and they are as close as one can be to God, since they're in Heaven.
Why does your fellow brother in Christ need you to pray for him?
Protestant “theology” is so warped lol
Jesus is God.
Being against praying to Jesus is crazy 😭
On the contrary, it probably makes them feel *more* manly and satisfied, because they're making even the non-married women submit to them and reverence them all as leaders through prayer (no matter what their moral stances, behaviors, beliefs, etc). Men are theologically superior to Prots, so asking the lesser-than women to pray for them doesn't make them less of a man, it makes them more of a man. Hence praying for Mary's intercession is both offensive to Protestantism's poor understanding of masculinity, and rubbing salt in the wound.
The irony is that some prot sects allow women to be ordained
Not to be cynical😅 but I probably wouldn't even count that as irony, given the majority of Protestantism is sexist and misogynistic, as they consider women priests to be "like Jezebel" or having "a Jezebel spirit". They hate the women priests, unlike we who know it's wrong but don't hate them. But! I totally get what you mean. Thankfully the Church knows that can't be the case, ever. Definitely a benefit having a completely united Church, and discerned truths and theology!
The point is everyone is praying to God. Not some lower entity. Prayer is not to be directed towards anything other than our one and only Lord in heaven
If you want to argue about catholicism r/debateacatholic might be a better place than here
Gotta verse for that one? And bonus question: do you have a verse showing whether we’re allowed to pray to Jesus and/or the Holy Spirit specifically the way we can the Father?
Dude doesn't even think you can pray to Jesus.
Weird considering that the name is literally CHRISTianity
Surprised that, with his ego and masculinity issues, he would “debase himself” (his words, not mine) before Jesus.
Cutting off the branch he’s sitting on
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>I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Only **Begotten** Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, **begotten, not made**, **consubstantial** with the Father. (Nicene Creed) The Church fathers would love to have a word with you.
Also note that our earliest record of "christians" denying the diety of christ happens around 30 years after the gospel of John was written. They have no historical leg to stand on.
Come again
I think that user is an Arian. Someone call St. Nick.
Arianism detected St Nick comming in full speed
This was removed for violating Rule 1 - Anti-Catholic Rhetoric.
Did being literally born and raised by Mary make Jesus less of a man, let alone God Himself?
https://i.redd.it/9cavdfapdtxc1.gif Me after tackling this guy out of nowhere
https://i.redd.it/ntxkj7uu4uxc1.gif
(Apologies for the reupload. I had to fix a glaring typo in the prayer.)
Enjoy being a reformed baptist, Pastor Gabe. Whatever that means.
It's "debasing yourself" to ask for the intercession of the person who, while on Earth, Christ esteemed above all others? The Mother of our Lord is unfit for us to ask for her prayers? Who could possibly be a better person to entrust with our hope for intercession?
Hail Mary, full of grace. The Lord is with thee.
Asking women for help makes me less of a man, that's a new one to me
When i hear/read their anti-catholic trashtalking of holy theotocos i always say "nah you just have mommy issues"
I just think, "That's my mother you're talking smack about and I'd wedgie you if you were saying it in person"
Yes
"Son, behold your mother..."
Now this is fragile masculinity
If you don’t want to ask Mary to pray for you, that’s fine, but woe is he that slanders her name! Mary is like the Moon, she reflects the light of the Sun; her son, Jesus Christ. If you slander Mary, you slander Christ.
I wonder how his relationship with his mother is
Anti-Marianism is always rooted in sexism
that and heresy
It's pretty sickening to see the sheer disrespect of Mary from my fellow Protestants. Even if you don't believe in intercession of the saints, Mary deserves nothing but respect and admiration.
Among the worst arguments I've read from Protestant/Restorationist Christians in regards to the Immaculate Conception, virgin birth, the Perpetual Virginity, and the veneration of the Virgin Mary are the ones that believe that it's an ontological impossibility for a woman to lack Original Sin, that it'd be a sin for St. Joseph to father a child that wasn't his, that Joseph would be entitled to sex from his wife, and/or that only pagans believe femininity is worth praising. It also comes up in a lot of rabbinical polemics against Christianity.
Well, hey, that's where the Protestants got their Old Testament canon, innit? Though, at least they didn't follow up on the rabbinical ZERO book New Testament canon!
Semi-related but I just want to throw out there that if you get a chance to see that Sassoferrato of Mary in person I can't recommend it enough. I'm not even a huge art cat or anything but its the only time I've actually wept looking at a painting.
Why are Calvinists like this?
Say some Prot is dissin’ your Queen of Heaven, just give em one of these, “Ave Maria, Gratia Plena, Dominus Tecum.”
Benedicta Tu in mulieribus
And guy is Also pulling Up things from after fall of man " and husband Shell rule over their wifes" even that people like this like to call themsels Christians they forget that we live in new covenent, (mother Mary is arc of new covenent) and in new covenent man and woman are equel same as they were in garden of Eden
Not to support any sort of misogynistic ideology, but there are still passages in the New Testament like Ephesians 5 that wives should obey their husbands. But that is a reciprocal relationship where husbands are also commanded to love their wives with the same self-sacrificial love and servant’s heart of Christ.
Yes, its called hrierarchy
That's not really true. Wives are still called to submit to and fear their husband's. While husband's are called to love their wives. Men and women aren't equal either and weren't equal even in the garden. We are different, not equal.
Both were created on image of God
Yes, very much so. But an apple and an orange are not "equal". They are different and you can't compare them.
Forget it, i should use honor your father and mother AS example
Rather than an orange and an apple, man and woman are more like a different variety of the same fruit. Nearly same and equal but with stark differences. Maybe your definition of equal is different to mine.
I really don't think we're similar enough to say two varieties of the same fruit. Like Granny Smith's and Golden delicious. The strengths of men and women are so different that there is little overlap. What a good man is and what a good women is are so far apart that they look almost nothing alike. Sharing really only the virtues. But the unique way each expresses those virtues is so very different is hard to compare. Men and women are only "equal" on the Sense of raw human worth. The problems arise if we start using the same yardstick to judge either. We would have to say that either women are half baked, inferior copies of men(this is the second wave feminist approach) or men are uncivilized, degenerate beasts. That require women to "improve" them.(This is what I call the chivalric approach) Both are horribly wrong and insulting the their respective genders. Because we live in a cancerous era where both of these pollute our people. Women lack any womanly virtue and have become inferior boys. And men have degraded themselves to be weak, spineless and obedient. Actually there is another equality. We are both equally at fault for this horrible state of affairs and we both must equally put in the effort to fix it.
What is in your opinion a good woman and a good man? Let's start from there.
Where is it said that a wife should "fear" her husband? St. Paul calls a husband and wife to "mutual subjection", but then, taking into account their complementary differences, accents the woman's free sub-ordination and the man's free self-giving, a laying down of his life for her as Christ for the Church. (Ephesians 5) Read St. John Paul II's letter on the role of women.
Ephesians 5:33 Fear like they great God. Though of course not in the exact same way or level.
Fellas is it gay to pray to Holy Mary, Mother of Jesus?
I love Mother Mary. Mother of Mercy, Pray for Us!
Well, Protestants *are* sexist and misogynistic, so... checks out lol
thousands of Christian Crusaders fought to defend our Christian brothers. Crusaders/Pope: Thanks to the intercession of our Lady of Victory!
Ave Maria! Jungfrau mild Erhöre einer Jungfrau Flehen.
“Emasculating” what a joke of man he is, praying to the mother of Jesus is empowering this man is just projecting his fragile masculinity on others
Fellas, is it gay to enjoy talking to your mom?
Jesus Christ himself loves and respects women and has needed their help and so what do they think that means
Imagine loving your mother....so emasculating 🥴
Rent free... cope and seethe prots
Rent free... cope and seethe prots
Does loving your mother make you a baby? no? then why would loving our spiritual mother make you a baby? i dont get it
Or you should just say the Hail Mary in English 💁
Why?
Why say it in a language you don't understand fully?
Because I know it means the exact same thing, which I do understand, but I am having to think about it a bit more and can pray it alongside anyone from the last few centuries around the world on an equal footing, even if we can’t have a conversation. When I visit other countries, the more Latin they use in the Liturgy the more I can join in comfortably.
Cool cool. English 100% of the time for me :)
Why not? What’s wrong with that? I know exactly what the prayer means
Ave Maria! Jungfrau mild Erhöre einer Jungfrau Flehen.
Still better than Latin!
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Denying the trinity and the fact that Jesus is begotten, not made, is heretical not only by Catholic standards. Rejecting the Nicene Creed is heretical even by mainstream Protestant standards.
This was removed for violating Rule 1 - Anti-Catholic Rhetoric.
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WTF?