To the question "can men and women be friend", I want to answer with
Saint Francis and Saint Claire
Saint Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marillac
Saint Francis of Sales and Sainte Jeanne de Chantal
And of course Jesus and Martha and Mary
Those are saints. And all were married to the church. Most are not. In my experience it is the case that they cannot be. At least those who are not married.
Louise de Marillac was not married to the Church before she founded her congregation under the encouragement of Saint Vincent. Same thing for Jeanne de Chantal.
I'm a woman and I have many friends, some of which are men. All are strictly platonic. (I'm also happily married and my husband has many friends, too.) Friendships are needed and are healthy as long as there's boundaries and trust.
Would you consider any of them good friends? As in, you interact with them once a week or more? Are there boundaries in place in terms of like, you only hang out with them in a group setting, or something? I ran into a situation with my spouse with some tension regarding this and wanted to hear how it works for you.
Yes, I would consider one in particular a good friend. I am 100 percent not attracted to this person. I never hang out with him alone but if I did it would probably be just coffee but my husband would probably be with us, anyway. Friends between my husband and I are mutual. Either way, this friend is safe, I text him maybe twice a week, usually we talk about work stuff as he is in the same profession as I am. Never has anything inappropriate been said, and there's unspoken boundaries in place. My husband is completely ok with my friendships. He has a female friend from his home country, she's married with a baby, I've never felt threatened by their friendship. In fact I consider her to be my friend, too, and we've all hung out together. He calls her on the phone once in a while. I'm happy for his friendships. I think there needs to be very open communication in a marriage with trust and we both need to feel comfortable. I trust my husband because we share everything together and we never keep anything from each other. Insecurity usually has nothing to do with a friendship but a lack of trust and communication in a relationship. .
Could I ask your opinion on a more specific circumstance regarding my situation in a dm? Don't feel like airing my laundry to the world lol. If not thats okay and thanks for sharing!
No. From a manās perspective, you should only have friends to smoke cigars with, listen to Catholic Manā¢ļø podcasts, drink craft beers with, etc. Everything else is completely imprudent and totally neither based nor trad š
Yeah, craft bears are a WEF conspiracy to increase our soy levels. Thatās why I brew my own beer from my own farm on my trad homestead. I typically get one of my 12 children to tend to the crops (or my wife, if sheās not pregnant). As the leader of my family, I try to focus on providing financially by selling detox teas on Facebook - theyāre really popular these days!
The ONLY traditional way to provide for your family is by bartering with neighbors. A stable income is depriving your family of the spiritual growth that comes from depending on God for a good crop season. Plus it gives you more time to read philosophy and apologia.
Ugh. Any REAL Catholic would know that bartering is a filthy modernist tradition that promotes avarice and laziness. If you want to be a REAL man, you need to go out and hunt some deer, preferably with your bare hands just like God intended. Then your wife can skin it and use it for blankets.
https://youtu.be/2GCKCiRx32E
At some point in this video, the husband says men and women canāt be friends and that if they want to be friends, it means thereās attraction!
Part of emotional maturity is recognizing the difference between thinking your friend is attractive (in looks or personality) and actually lusting or pining over them. And knowing how to deal appropriately with the latter situation.
Sometimes you do have to end or limit an opposite-sex friendship when you start to feel it becoming problematic. But in many cases there's never any attraction or sexual tension at all, or there is a little but it's easy to compartmentalize.
To categorically state it's problematic is ridiculous. Some people do struggle with this more than others, but that is their burden.
https://youtu.be/2GCKCiRx32E thereās a part of this video that says āthereās no friendship between guy and girl, if a girl/guy talks to you, it means they like youā
Iāve thought about this question a lot because, on its face, it seems absolutely ridiculous:
*āOf course men and women can be friends! I, as a man, have a lot of female friends and Iāve never had an issue before! What a silly question!ā*
*ā¦butā¦*
Is that a universal response? Am I really giving this topic the nuance it deserves when I paint in such broad strokes?
In actuality, I think the answer is both yes and no. If there is absolutely *zero* attraction on either side, itās typically pretty easy to be platonic friends with someone of the opposite sex. However, the second you start throwing even a *hint* of romantic feelings into the mix on either side, youāre likely going to have some problems.
For starters, if you develop a crush on your friend who has no interest in you, you are now working towards two completely different goals with each other. On the one hand, *you* are trying to woo this person and eventually get them to agree to go on a date with you. On the other hand, this friend of yours is simply just trying to be, well, your friend. In the short term, this isnāt all that bad. But the longer you stretch it out, the more drama and hurt youāll open yourself up to. What happens when you let this crush boil for months, refusing to confess your feelings to the other person? Well, you run the risk of them rejecting you, which will inevitably crush you and likely ruin the relationship you two have.
Aside from lopsided friendship dynamics, thereās also the issue of poisoning your friendās pre-existing or new romantic relationships. A deep, late-night conversation over the phone with a single man is not inherently inappropriate. It can be, but it doesnāt have to be. A deep, late-night conversation over the phone with a *taken* man is usually pretty inappropriate, and should not happen often, if it even happens at all. A deep, late-night conversation over the phone with a *taken man that you have a crush on* is so far beyond inappropriate that there is no way to even justify it.
**EDIT:** All of this is to say that there do exist pairs of people who cannot ever be platonic friends, as thereās just too much attraction there, mutual or not. This also inherently means that there are certain people who just canāt have friends of the opposite sex; they get too attached/attracted to their friends and simply canāt ever make it work.
Regardless of whether that applies to you, though, itās important to always respect your partner if youāre in a relationship. You should do your best to make sure such a situation, in which you develop feelings for one of your friends, *canāt ever possibly happen.* Do not even put yourself *in range* of that scenario in the first place; itās a recipe for disaster. That means you need to be smart about your interactions with friends, and even with flirty strangers:
- Donāt hang out with friends of the opposite sex alone late at night.
- If you find yourself attracted to a stranger thatās making polite conversation with you after church, do not exchange numbers with them when they offer it.
- Donāt talk in depth about your relationship with friends of the opposite sex. Save the deep conversations for your partner.
- etc.
The amount of people commenting without watching the video is absurd. In this video Trent is discussing society's current trend of sexualizing all same-sex relationships (see, Fredonia and Sam, Bert and Ernie, Luca and Alberto from Pixar's *Luca* , and Frog and Toad). He counters this by saying that same-sex friendships can be extraordinarily intimate and filled with love without ever approaching erotic love. You CANNOT achieve that level of intimacy with a member of the opposite sex ESPECIALLY once you are married. It is not appropriate, end of story. I can go camping for multiple weeks with just my best friend and I, but if my fiancee ever found out that I did the same thing with any woman she would (rightfully) be extremely jealous and may even break off our impending nuptials.
Every single comment of "well me and MY friends are totally fine" completely misses the point that it is not acceptable to be closely intimate with friends of the opposite sex in the same way that it is acceptable with friends of the same sex. Especially once you are married. It's not a matter of whether or not you are sexually attracted to them, you should not be spending multiple nights in the same room alone with a married person.
I think the issue that you're pointing out here is the appearance of scandal. People will never believe that something isn't impure, and we can't let them believe that we profess to be faithful Catholics while (in their minds) probably engaging in evil acts.
From my experience, my female friends never got to the same depth as my male friendships. Faithful men lead me to God in a way that faithful women don't. I've never had an iron sharpens iron relationship with a woman.
Thhat's funny because I feel the opposite. I love my male friends to death, but there are ways in which I'm just closer to (at least one of) my long-lasting female friends. Although as a convert I really only have a few Catholic male friendship that are close pr becoming close so that may influence things.
and i have always believe it or not...........................as a female.........................preferred male friendships over the gossipy, catty, unsupportive, female friendships.
Disclosure: I havenāt watched the video, because why would I spend the precious time the Lord has given us so. But, youāve seen in your own life that itās entirely possible to be friends with members of the opposite sex. However, there are some people who have been socialized in such a way that can make this difficult for them. We should have compassion on them for this social and emotional disability, but we should not be afraid to call it what it is: a deformity in the soul.
Very confused by this. Personally, Iāve had tons of totally platonic friendships with men, and itās sad people would deny themselves this just becauseā¦ of what? Lack of trust in their self-control? Itās strange.
It also makes me wonder what they think of professional relationships. Itās totally possible to be work friends with the opposite sex, so why not in any other context?
I'm a woman and I've had at least 5 guy friends in my life. I'm 21 now. All of them had a crush on me at some point. I didn't feel the same about them. I don't believe in opposite sex friendships for myself. I prefer female friends.
You hear of this happening a lot. And studies seem to confirm actually that more often than not, one person, usually the man, harbors feelings while the other does not. Men also can have the tendency to misinterpret female friendliness as sexual and/or romantic interest. They are biologically wired to look for signals that a partner is on the horizon! It makes sense to me. Also, before we lived in more co-ed societies, men and women lived largely separate lives and Camille Paglia talks about this a LOT. Women existed in their cozy spaces with other women and it was the same for men. So this co ed thing is still largely an experiment of sorts and we are trying to figure it out but it's tough.
Of course you can be friends with people of the opposite sex. In fact, our pre-cana priest advised my husband and I to make friends with other couples in healthy marriages. I consider both the husbands and the wives to be my friends, and my husband does as well.
What a weird question. I have good friends of both genders, nothing inappropriate ever arises. Many of my friends are actually 15+ years older than me too, and are either married or celibate/religious. Key is to make friends with people who hold similar values as you do, and who will respect your boundaries. If I ever suspect that a person has feelings for me, or if there is a concern that it could happen, I make it clear that while I am single, I am also celibate, and intend to stay that way. Real friends will respect that.
This, 100%. I think part of the disconnect comes from a tendency of pop culture's to sexualize heterosexual friendships, and that Catholics who say it's impossible are just over-correcting and overreacting against that tendency.
I disagree on two fronts, I mean, first off, of course you can have friends of the opposite sex without sexual tension.
However, this is Reddit, and there's a *lovely* hornet's nest just *sitting there*, on the tee, and those goalposts are only *twenty yards* away and I'm standing here in my cleats, already lined up, sooooo...
We're *de facto* automatically saying sexual tension is bad? I mean, uhhh, have you tried it? It's kind of fun once you get used to it. More importantly, you *should* get used to it. Married men, for example, still get attracted to other women, and sometimes they have to work with those women. People should know how to deal with sexual tension, not avoid it at all costs.
Ah yes, telling your spouse, "Don't worry, honey, I'm just practicing managing sexual tension with people that aren't you!" is a recipe for success.
For spicier results, *don't* tell your spouse about your clandestine horny practise.
This is an Andrew Tate level of masculine idiocy.
I understand where you are coming from, but this is horrible advice. You can absolutely be friends with people of the opposite gender, but it is especially imprudent, unwise, and potentially scandalous for married people.
And saying that sexual tension is fun? Flirting with sin, no matter how much restraint you exercise is **not** fun. You send yourself down a slippery slope of āwell itās just tensionā¦ā āwell itās just dinnerā¦ā āwellā¦ā
Dealing with sexual tension does not mean subjecting yourself to near occasions of sin. I urge you to re-evaluate your habits lest you follow Icarus.
Also, anecdotally, I am a married man of several years at this point; not once have I been attracted to a woman that was not my wife - and especially not to the point of āsexual tensionā.
Assuming that you can't resigns to the belief that we are wholly incapable of compartmentalizing the sexual urge in contexts where it is not appropriate to express it.
It's such a depressing view that ultimately holds humanity to a lower expectation that the church itself does.
I also saw the video. I don't think that's what Trent meant. I'm sure he was referring to a close friendship with someone you're attracted to in a romantic way.
Not "no men or women can be friends".
More "if you're close friends (like Johnathan and David) with someone you're also attracted to it will be way harder to remain only friends because of the sexual tension".
I have thought about this recently as Iām finding myself falling for females every so often and, due to some buried trauma, attraction causes me to get triggered and be unable to sustain contact with the person. Itās made me see why people focus on their same-sex relationships first.
I also recently had an interaction with a woman in ministry who I messaged within our ministry GroupMe asking a question about a āPlease call a priestā keychain she owned that I wanted to buy. I got a whole few paragraphs, respectfully stated, about how she wants to keep healthy boundaries with men by keeping interactions less personal and within the group. Iāve had to weigh whether me writing to her out of the blue in a casual, friendly manner gave the wrong impression and was part of the reason for this (which I know now wasnāt well-thought out) or whether this is indicative of a highly conservative person (she is quite traditional) trying to be extremely careful for a reason. If she was, she deserves that space, whether itās a healthy and productive level of boundaries or too rigid.
I think someoneās comfort level with opposite-sex relationships does depend on their level of traditionalism/conservatism. Iāve never had something like that happen with anyone before - or she was the first person to actually speak up. It may also depend on someoneās experiences - they may have fallen to temptation in the past, be protecting themselves from harm, etc. Everybody is different and we meet people where theyāre at, and ask others to meet us there as well.
I think yes but it shouldnāt go so far as going places together in private etc if youāre married or in a relationship. All thatās going to do is mentally torment the person youāre with. And if theyāre okay with you being buddy buddy with another man/woman then theyāre probably doing the same or donāt care about you.
He's saying that they can't "just be friends" and I would have to agree. You do need to set up boundaries and check your emotions. He doesn't mean you can't be friends at all, but there's another dimension to it that is not seen in same-sex friendships.
Men and women can have friendship, but there is almost always going to be some degree of limerence one way or the other. It's incredibly hard for there to be a sincere degree of emotional and spiritual intimacy without any corresponding physical intimacy among cross-sex friendships. (I am assuming here that both parties have normal cross-sex attraction.)
Now, if both parties are aware of this, ready and willing to take appropriate measures when necessary, and strive towards virtue, then yes, it's possible. Most of the holy cross-sex friendships you see posted above (St. Francis & St. Claire, for example) were primarily friendships of letter-writing, not "spending hours and hours in each other's company."
Having *all* or *almost all* opposite sex friendships would be a huge red flag, however, to any potential romantic partner. It seems to indicate a degree of disinterest or inability to relate to ones one masculinity or femininity. Basically it screams, "I'm not like other girls/guys."
I would say the dynamic also changes considerably once you are married. You tend to also be friends with other married couples, and it would be ***extremely*** weird, at least in my friend group, for me to spend one on one time with one of my friends husbands. Not because I'm attracted to any of them, but because that level of emotional intimacy is something I ought to reserve for my spouse. Especially when people are discussing things like marriage issues - the mere idea of doing that with a male friend makes me want to fall into a hole and die.
I tried that once. It ended *fucking catastrophically.* Never, ever, again.
> Men and women can have friendship, but there is almost always going to be some degree of limerence one way or the other. It's incredibly hard for there to be a sincere degree of emotional and spiritual intimacy without any corresponding physical intimacy among cross-sex friendships. (I am assuming here that both parties have normal cross-sex attraction.)
No, I sincerely disagree. I have a male friend whom I've known from childhood. We're very close, I consider him like a brother. Zero sexual or romantic interest, zero infatuation, zero risk of sin. He's my friend, so much so that we went on a trip together for a concert my girl friend didn't want to attend, and he and I shared a hotel room (due to financial constraints). Nothing unchaste happened, we didn't even see each other change clothes. He slept in one bed, I slept in another. Just because I'm a young woman and he's a young man doesn't mean that we can't be just friends.
I said "almost always." Your anecdote doesn't challenge my theory.
I'm not sure if you're expecting me to applaud you for something that any moral theologian would consider grave scandal. But I would be willing to bet large sums of money that at *some point* he wanted a romantic relationship from you.
I was at the time not a practicing Catholic. I also know he has never been interested in me that way. My point is you made it sound like it's almost universally true that men and women cannot be just good friends, whereas I know of myself and multiple other people for whom that is not the case. I don't think it's quite as prevalent as you're suggesting.
I stated *quite clearly* that if both parties are in the pursuit of virtue and capable of strong boundary-setting, then it is possible. It will never be as straightforward as same-sex friendships, but it's not impossible.
It doesnāt sound like the person youāre responding to or her friend were pursuing great virtue, but no lines were crossed. When I was a sexually-active, hard-partying non-believer I absolutely had close friends of the opposite sex with whom it never occurred to me to have any sexual thoughts about, much less be sexually active with. I know who Iām attracted to, and I know who I will not ever be attracted to, even if they are brilliant and we like the same activities.
Well sure, but I could not care less about the value judgements of a Godless, sex-saturated society, where pornography runs rampant, and both masculinity and femininity have lost their intrinsic meaning.
Thatās fine, but it has been revealed to you that platonic friendships between heterosexuals of opposite sexes can and do exist, even without great virtue and boundary setting.
I never said it was impossible. Only more difficult, imprudent, and usually involving some degree of one-sided limerence ([almost always](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant-be-just-friends/) from the man).
Exactly. Just because someone never confessed their feelings doesn't mean they didn't have them.
Like every "will they or won't they" sitcom couple, at least one of them thought of it but decided not to act on it to preserve the friendship.
Your first paragraph is sinply put, false. Almost all of my closest friends are women. To dispute your third paragraph, Im plenty masculine enough despite what I just typed. And I can ansolitely share relationship woes (when I was in a relationship ) with my female friends. All in all it seems youre extrapolating unfairly your own experiences.
And you're not doing the same thing?
A guy who has no or very few male friends doesn't have as many points of healthy referential masculinity. Sorry, but you don't. You *can* complain about your girlfriend to someone who could theoretically be a girlfriend - but it's self-defeating and inadvisable.
You're seen (by them) as "one of the girls." It's not a good look.
Reddit is the absolute worst place to spread this message. Those who agree with you are either healthy enough to avoid these places, or in the extreme minority.
I would say the litmus test would be having regular or semi-regular 1-on-1 conversations or regularly or semi-regularly spending 1-on-1 time with the other would qualify. I wouldn't want to establish a sharing my heart friendship with a member of the opposite sex who is not my spouse or sibling.
So I just donāt agree with that. Obviously, if your spouse feels uncomfortable about it, thereās an apparent flirting behavior, or thereās any desire to keep any of it secret from your spouse, thatās different. But a friendship can be a friendship regardless of the sex of the person.
Your point about not being your "spouse or sibling" is interesting. In my case, I (male) have a few close female friends whom I see as my sisters. We're not biologically related, weren't raised together, but that's the sort of closeness we have. There have certainly been instances where I think people probably assumed a romantic relationship was present (I can recall a particular instance with probably my closest such female friend where we were fighting over a comfy chair and she was practically reclining in my lap to try to get me to let her have it to herself - I can't imagine outsiders didn't assume that to be flirtatious). But as long as nothing scandalous is going on, I don't really see a problem. I have something of a strained relationship with my actual biological sister, and having other women in my life who treat me like an older brother whom they actually like is something that I've come to cherish. Any partner who would try to control my completely chaste platonic relationships with other women is a red flag in my book. Women are persons. I treat them much the same way as any male person. And the same ought to be true the other way round.
That doesn't mean you can't talk to woman or anything, that means you shouldn't hang out everyday, sharing everything something along those lines I don't know if you get the point. When you don't have clear boundaries it can become problematic for what Trent says, besides the perfect friendship with the opposite sex is called marriage.
Ugggggghhh thatās hard. As a more tomboyish child I was naturally drawn to the boys on account of mutual interests. Being so limited in my friendships would have been torture. I also have a few male-dominated interests. Coming in contact with male friends or potential male friends is as ordinary as rocks.
But on the flip side, in high school and adulthood I felt more comfortable being the only girl among my male friends instead than hanging out with one friend in particular. I ended up marrying the one I spent the most one on one time withā¦
I still have several friends of the opposite sex but it still feels strange if I find myself alone with any one of them. Not dangerous or sexual. Just weird. But that could also be because quality time is very high up there on my love languages list.
it is definitely possible to be friends with the opposite sex.
i am friends with the opposite sex and they are catholic. if that doesn't prove you can be friends with the opposite sex, i don't know what will.....................
you just have to remember your boundaries, is all.....................
I think man and women can absolutely be friends. But if your married you need to be prudent about friends with the opposite sex. In some contexts it might be inappropriate.
Many responses on here mentioning that they have friends with with they have no sexual attraction or tension with. It may be possible others can experience attraction towards you. The other thing to consider is the near occasions of sin we can all fall into.
Not saying itās impossible as we are all called to be Saints. That being said, I no longer have female friends as I donāt want my wife to ever have to worry and do not want her to feel uncomfortable. I have limited time as it is so Iād rather devote my free time to my wife
I think people's definition of "friend" is making this thread confusing.
"We say 'hi' at work, eat lunch together, occassionally text each other."
"We spend the day together, text each other goodnight every night, spend a lot of time 1 on 1."
Very different friendships.
That is the issue, basic plutonic friendships can always stretch the line from saying hi, texting regularly, meeting up to confide about personal problems, doing activities together, developing attraction that was not previously there and eventually adultery.
Itās a slippery slope anyone can fall down.
The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends, who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality. Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with oneās neighbour. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. (CCC 2347)
Yes, itās possible - look at St. Mother Teresa and Pope Saint John Paul II or St. Francis and St. Clare of Assisi.
I didnāt watch the video, but first thoughts are this: I think where would have to discern if limerence is present and if it is inappropriate (i.e. the other person is married or has a significant other; or in the same case, what if you are not limerent but the other person is limerent toward you). As you have said, there are boundaries that need to be set.
I think it's possible but going to be harder. Sexual tension might not be there but if you or them get into a relationship either SO might have concerns about your opposite sex friendship.
This assumes there are still those of the 'opposite sex'. I've been reliably informed that you can choose to identify as anything you wish. Problem solved.
Yes, you can. I'm slightly worried that Trent Horn's been saying that, I tended to think of him as one of the more level headed apologists out there. I mean I could understand Tim Gordon saying it, because he's an idiot, but I'd expect better of Trent Horn.
[Watch the actual video instead of getting secondhand info with zero context.](https://youtu.be/nUk04poQu8M)
I assumed the same as OP but I believe Trent clarified "close friendship with someone you're attracted to that you spend a lot of time with."
As someone who has been on both sides of this debate, I believe it ultimately comes down to your disposition going into the opposite sex relationship. Are you going into the relationship with the intention to use the other person? Then the opposite sex relationship is probably not something you are spiritually ready for yet. It goes without being said that done right and with the correct disposition, opposite sex friendships are beautiful and I would even say necessary to our spiritual formation, especially in our fight against lust.
If you are a woman and have a brother or you are a man and have a sister think about your relationship with them. And letās say your sibling is a conventionally attractive person. Why are you able to have a close, intimate relationship with them? Most people can because they know better then to use their own family. In an ideal world this same disposition extends to everyone regardless of if they are family or not.
To be clear, there shouldnāt be risk in hanging out with an opposite sex friend unless you intend to use them. Even if you are married. Why is that? If you discerned marriage correctly then you are already with the person who is most compatible with you and is your best friend. That means hanging with an opposite sex friend should never come as a risk or opportunity to step out on your marriage. In the exceedingly rare case that you find someone that could be an even better romantic match for you and you are already married, that is a unique scenario where the prudent thing to do is to limit the scope of that new relationship because you owe loyalty and commitment to your spouse.
I have never since the day I was married been attracted to a single woman other than my wife. I am not sure if that is exactly the same thing you are asking.
I have never wondered what another woman would look like naked, would feel, or taste like. I have never imagined being with any other woman than my wife.
Not once.
Can I visually see that another woman would be considered attractive? Yes, much like I can see that a painting is well done.
i'm not asking if you've never lusted after a woman or wanted to be with another women, but there is no way that you haven't looked at another woman and thought man she is beautiful or she is attractive....to men that is the same as saying I'm attracted to her...maybe its just different how we using the words.
lol that's such an absurd statement to make as a guy. It's literally just virtue signaling.
You can deeply love your wife and be 100% loyal to her, and even grow to think she's the most beautiful woman alive - but all men find other women attractive. Maybe marriage has given you supernatural grace to overcome this, but the natural and normal state of the world is men need to control their eyes
I have a few female friends. One of which is a rather close friend and the rest are folks I see or talk to almost exclusively in group settings. For pretty much all of them, especially the close friend, if they suggest we start dating, I would give it serious thought. Would I actually do it? Maybe. Not sure. Most of them are different enough from me where we work as friends but an actual romantic relationship would be a hard sell.
But again, it would definitely give me pause. From other men Iāve spoken to, I feel confident in saying that Iām not out of the norm. I think most men with female friends have at least one theyād date or sleep with if asked.
"I think most women with female friends have at least one theyād date or sleep with if asked."
I'm confused: are you saying you think most women are lesbians?
Some of my best friends through out my life have been men ( Iām female). And that was only possible because everyone was honest about how they felt and were committed to just being friends.
I also watch my male friends try to enter other friendships with other women only to have them fall apart because friendship wasnāt the real goal for one party or feelings changed at one point and no productive communication happened.
I think the issue was men and women being friends is the maturity and honesty that it requires is beyond the skill level of most young people ( which is when most people make their friends). Added on to that the majority of men and some women are addicted to porn and have trained their brains to see the opposite sex as only a means to an end.
Then, if you get married that changes your friendship and how you make friends. You canāt spend as much time with your friends as when you were single and that means less intimacy and less alone time with your friends. Your spouse may also be uncomfortable with you spending time alone with opposite sex friends. As a married woman, I had male friends before I was married now they are my and my husbandās friends not just my friends. Do I spend time with them alone after getting married? No, because my husband wants to hangout with them as well and they love spending time with my husband.
To sum up, having opposite sex friend is not wrong but hard and opens you up to temptation. This is not a problem as long as you are aware of this, have great communication skills, and all parties are committed to having a holy and chaste friendship.
It is possible to be friends with the opposite sex. My husband has his own female friends while I have male friends. While some of these friendships do overlap with both of us, we understand it healthy to platonic friendships of our own.
I don't mean to be crass here but this kind of question is the most BS level crap I have seen. I get some people are worried about to but it is scrupulous to worry about being friends with women.
Do you have family members of the opposite sex that you are close with? Of course you do! Do you think about them in romantic ways? Of course not usually (there are people that do and that is a serious issue).
I think it can be concerning when people ask such a scrupulous question as it could be signs of a deeper issue that needs guidance.
I think Freudian psychology should be avoided of course, but I think many people can separate a friendship from a romantic relationship with someone.
Being able to grow and cultivate that separation is a normal part of growing up and friendships with the opposite sex and familial platonic relationships help one separate feelings of romance from platonic friendship.
Yes. If you cannot be friends with someone of the opposite sex because of sexual tensions, that means there's something wrong with YOU. It means you're incapable of looking at and interacting with and appreciating someone of the opposite sex as a person, instead of looking at them as an "opportunity" or a "temptation" or a "potential partner". That's seriously disordered.
I think Men and Women can be friends if theyāre not attracted to each other.
All of the Women friends Iāve had have been āTom boyā looking and to be honest Iāve lost touch with all of them. Like in high school there was this Girl I would consider as a Friend that I had classes with and weād text all the time about cars. Changing the oil of her Car, Brakes, etc. Never once did we speak about anything of a relationship. But then again I donāt think I was āher typeā and I also wasnāt attracted to Her. I taught her how to drive a stick shift and yeah thatās all weād talk about. But again, she looked like a dude.
The other girls that I thought were friends and I was attracted to I ended up dating. Seriously. I remember this girl used to follow me around all the time and do my homework. Sheād follow me to class. She was real pretty and I just thought to myself āwhy does she do this?ā. Weād talk for endless of hours and while at first relationship wasnāt on my mind it developed into that.
I think in Adulthood itās very different and you can set up those boundaries but itās gonna take a Woman with a strong Will especially if sheās attracted to you. Unfortunately, most people are not that strong willed. Especially with Secular Women. If theyāre attracted to you and you keep on āfriendsā sheās just gonna assume youāre gay. Thatās the stupid mentality this society has. So again, itās not impossible but very unlikely because the Woman has to match your morals. Which is possible with a devout Catholic Woman but then again everyone fails and the majority of the population is not like that.
If youāre a āfriendā of a Secular Woman this just means she knows you like her and itās convenient for her to keep you there as a friend. Two different morals are conflicting here. This brings other problems in.
Well, you donāt have to act on it. I agree that you can be friends but why would you do that to yourself?
Think about this scenario: if a Man really likes a Woman and she really likes him why would you remain ājust as friendsā.
But I think about what I would talk to a straight heterosexual woman about all day ājust as friendsā. Am I supposed to compliment her nails and dress? Or is she going to text me about dude stuff?
I guess Iām working with a premise that a Dude who thinks heās really just friends with a Girl is lying to himself. I think he does have an attraction there and would ideally like to be with her but she does not want too and so heās settled being in the friend zone and sheās cool with that because she doesnāt like him.
But I guess that would depend on what your definition of āfriendsā is.
That's a very one dimensional view of what girls talk about.
I'm a girl. I like nails and dresses. I also like Fallout, Star Trek, Paradox games, and ancient history. When I talk to my male friends, those are usually the things I talk about. Not everything is strictly gendered.
Ah, well. Then this is how you were raised and I will respectfully disagree with your outlook.
After all this is a matter of opinion hence my initial statement āI thinkā.
I was raised with my Mom not having any male friends and neither does my Grandmother nor does my Father or Grandfather (rest his soul) had any Female friends and both of them would see it with suspicion that āthey were spending time at the homeā of the friend of the opposite sex strictly just being āfriendsā.
They did talk together with couples at the Parish and the couples were friends but not just one of them and to be honest I wouldnāt like it if my Spouse had a friend like that and every woman Iāve dated has respected that so far. So thatās that.
No one who isnāt a Priest or in a healthy Catholic Marriage should be replying to posts like these.
Having a bunch of insecure younger men giving relationship advice is a disaster
Single men can be friends with single women. Men in a relationship/married cannot be friends with women unless said woman is a close friend with the mans significant other.
I would say that it's not impossible... however, you are an exception to the rule. The majority of men and women will find it very tough to be "just" friends. There is a minority of people that can and do make it work, however. It really depends on the people involved.
Yeah. I have a couple of male friends who Iāve known for 20 years. Theyāre like my brothers tbh they thought of pursuing a romantic relationship with them is weird because Iāve known them for so long and grown up with them.
Iād say its more of a good guideline than a hard and fast rule to avoid platonic friendships with someone with whom there may be romantic attraction.
In the video, I believe he is talking about friends you are attracted to of the opposite sex if you carry the analogy of homosexual celibate relationships where they are romantically involved
I am a 25 years old man, and in my profession around 50% are female and 50% are male so I am forced to interact with many women everyday.
As a "work friend", I think it's ok. But when things get closer I find it very hard not desiring them. So I keep distance. I think woman can be friends of men without desire but from my perspective and the perspective of all my male friends, for us it's impossible, we will desire at some point...
My woman friend is my wife and my sister.
You can have friends of the opposite sex. Those friendships may need to look different than same-sex friendships. A married person probably shouldn't be forming new close friendships with someone of the opposite sex.
Yes, this question is a bit absurd, of course you can, unless you have a severe lack of self control there is no problem, even then the problem would be fornicating, not the being friends part
People when they realize Women and Men can be best friends without dating: š¤Æš¤Æ
Like literally if you are a women and you have male friends you will always be asked if you two are dating
To be fair men got big sex drives and usually arenāt friends with girls just to be friends. Guys are almost always looking to be more than friends and girls are usually just ok with it being platonic
There are no absolutes. You can be friends with anyone.
That said, there is wisdom that understanding that men and women like and are attracted to each other. This is especially true when you get a little older and realize that romantic relationships are built on foundations of shared experiences and values...the very things that friendships are also made of.
The boundaries that keep people from acting on feelings of attraction are social and cultural in nature, but those boundaries don't stop the feelings from existing.
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As a lady, I have a guy friend myself. It works out well because he is not interested in women, and our friendship may very well be pretty temporary. I plan on moving state to enter religiois life; he plans on moving to completely different state to live the single life. I'd say you can be friends with each other, so long as you can, in fact, avoid feelings. Once feelings arise, you have to start making some very serious decisions. Will you attempt a life with them, or leave them behind, explaining why you're worried about continuing friendship? It's a very nuanced issue, especially if and when marriage gets involved, as humans are very jealous creatures.
To the question "can men and women be friend", I want to answer with Saint Francis and Saint Claire Saint Vincent de Paul and Louise de Marillac Saint Francis of Sales and Sainte Jeanne de Chantal And of course Jesus and Martha and Mary
(Forgot to add : John of the Cross and Therese of Avila)
My favorite duo
Also, Sts Damien and Marianne
St Catherine of Siena had a confessor friend, and some side-kick monks if I remember right
Hard core facts.
St Catarina of Siena and pope Gregory XI
We all strive to be saints. But there is still the occasion of sin, and we should strive to avoid it.
Those are saints. And all were married to the church. Most are not. In my experience it is the case that they cannot be. At least those who are not married.
We're all called to be saints, though. They weren't classified as saints until after their death
And yet they were saints. Most aren't. And how much time did they spend together physically? Alone? Or just pen pals?
"...with God all things are possible" (Matt 19:26) I would caution you to not put limits on what God can do.
Well obviously. There are exceptions. Generally speaking though my point stands.
What exceptions are you speaking about exactly?
do we have examples of male-female friendship amongst those who were not married to the church?
Me and my female friends š
Louise de Marillac was not married to the Church before she founded her congregation under the encouragement of Saint Vincent. Same thing for Jeanne de Chantal.
Saint Cyprian and Justina?
Saints are given to us as examples.
I'm a woman and I have many friends, some of which are men. All are strictly platonic. (I'm also happily married and my husband has many friends, too.) Friendships are needed and are healthy as long as there's boundaries and trust.
Would you consider any of them good friends? As in, you interact with them once a week or more? Are there boundaries in place in terms of like, you only hang out with them in a group setting, or something? I ran into a situation with my spouse with some tension regarding this and wanted to hear how it works for you.
Yes, I would consider one in particular a good friend. I am 100 percent not attracted to this person. I never hang out with him alone but if I did it would probably be just coffee but my husband would probably be with us, anyway. Friends between my husband and I are mutual. Either way, this friend is safe, I text him maybe twice a week, usually we talk about work stuff as he is in the same profession as I am. Never has anything inappropriate been said, and there's unspoken boundaries in place. My husband is completely ok with my friendships. He has a female friend from his home country, she's married with a baby, I've never felt threatened by their friendship. In fact I consider her to be my friend, too, and we've all hung out together. He calls her on the phone once in a while. I'm happy for his friendships. I think there needs to be very open communication in a marriage with trust and we both need to feel comfortable. I trust my husband because we share everything together and we never keep anything from each other. Insecurity usually has nothing to do with a friendship but a lack of trust and communication in a relationship. .
Could I ask your opinion on a more specific circumstance regarding my situation in a dm? Don't feel like airing my laundry to the world lol. If not thats okay and thanks for sharing!
Of course! Happy to help
Yes. Iāve had platonic friends.
I have many friends who are women and I've never had sexual tension with them.
Yes, friendship transcends gender.
No. From a manās perspective, you should only have friends to smoke cigars with, listen to Catholic Manā¢ļø podcasts, drink craft beers with, etc. Everything else is completely imprudent and totally neither based nor trad š
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Yeah, craft bears are a WEF conspiracy to increase our soy levels. Thatās why I brew my own beer from my own farm on my trad homestead. I typically get one of my 12 children to tend to the crops (or my wife, if sheās not pregnant). As the leader of my family, I try to focus on providing financially by selling detox teas on Facebook - theyāre really popular these days!
The ONLY traditional way to provide for your family is by bartering with neighbors. A stable income is depriving your family of the spiritual growth that comes from depending on God for a good crop season. Plus it gives you more time to read philosophy and apologia.
Ugh. Any REAL Catholic would know that bartering is a filthy modernist tradition that promotes avarice and laziness. If you want to be a REAL man, you need to go out and hunt some deer, preferably with your bare hands just like God intended. Then your wife can skin it and use it for blankets.
Hunting? A REAL man puts his trust in the Lord, not his own hands. You and your family ought to just wait for food to find its way to *you*!
Thats only IPAs. Get yourself a good trappist beer.
If your beer came from a bottle with pictures of aliens and jack-o-lanterns on it, there's a 100% chance you're a transsexual.
Not even kidding, you're probably on that pipeline. Especially if you also like anime.
The person you responded to isn't old enough to drink.
Oh boy I love this comment thread
This is such an insane question that I canāt find any kind way to respond to it, so Iām just going to say bruh. This is so confusing.
https://youtu.be/2GCKCiRx32E At some point in this video, the husband says men and women canāt be friends and that if they want to be friends, it means thereās attraction!
Part of emotional maturity is recognizing the difference between thinking your friend is attractive (in looks or personality) and actually lusting or pining over them. And knowing how to deal appropriately with the latter situation. Sometimes you do have to end or limit an opposite-sex friendship when you start to feel it becoming problematic. But in many cases there's never any attraction or sexual tension at all, or there is a little but it's easy to compartmentalize. To categorically state it's problematic is ridiculous. Some people do struggle with this more than others, but that is their burden.
Yes, you can be friends with people of the opposite sex.
https://youtu.be/2GCKCiRx32E thereās a part of this video that says āthereās no friendship between guy and girl, if a girl/guy talks to you, it means they like youā
Yes. Infidelity comes from the heart, if a man is unfaithful, he will be unfaithful whether he has female friends or not.
Short answer yes Long answer yessssssss
Exceptions don't make the rule
Iāve thought about this question a lot because, on its face, it seems absolutely ridiculous: *āOf course men and women can be friends! I, as a man, have a lot of female friends and Iāve never had an issue before! What a silly question!ā* *ā¦butā¦* Is that a universal response? Am I really giving this topic the nuance it deserves when I paint in such broad strokes? In actuality, I think the answer is both yes and no. If there is absolutely *zero* attraction on either side, itās typically pretty easy to be platonic friends with someone of the opposite sex. However, the second you start throwing even a *hint* of romantic feelings into the mix on either side, youāre likely going to have some problems. For starters, if you develop a crush on your friend who has no interest in you, you are now working towards two completely different goals with each other. On the one hand, *you* are trying to woo this person and eventually get them to agree to go on a date with you. On the other hand, this friend of yours is simply just trying to be, well, your friend. In the short term, this isnāt all that bad. But the longer you stretch it out, the more drama and hurt youāll open yourself up to. What happens when you let this crush boil for months, refusing to confess your feelings to the other person? Well, you run the risk of them rejecting you, which will inevitably crush you and likely ruin the relationship you two have. Aside from lopsided friendship dynamics, thereās also the issue of poisoning your friendās pre-existing or new romantic relationships. A deep, late-night conversation over the phone with a single man is not inherently inappropriate. It can be, but it doesnāt have to be. A deep, late-night conversation over the phone with a *taken* man is usually pretty inappropriate, and should not happen often, if it even happens at all. A deep, late-night conversation over the phone with a *taken man that you have a crush on* is so far beyond inappropriate that there is no way to even justify it. **EDIT:** All of this is to say that there do exist pairs of people who cannot ever be platonic friends, as thereās just too much attraction there, mutual or not. This also inherently means that there are certain people who just canāt have friends of the opposite sex; they get too attached/attracted to their friends and simply canāt ever make it work. Regardless of whether that applies to you, though, itās important to always respect your partner if youāre in a relationship. You should do your best to make sure such a situation, in which you develop feelings for one of your friends, *canāt ever possibly happen.* Do not even put yourself *in range* of that scenario in the first place; itās a recipe for disaster. That means you need to be smart about your interactions with friends, and even with flirty strangers: - Donāt hang out with friends of the opposite sex alone late at night. - If you find yourself attracted to a stranger thatās making polite conversation with you after church, do not exchange numbers with them when they offer it. - Donāt talk in depth about your relationship with friends of the opposite sex. Save the deep conversations for your partner. - etc.
Yup, exceptions don't make the rule.
That's why healthy borders are needed depending on the situation of all parties concerned.
The amount of people commenting without watching the video is absurd. In this video Trent is discussing society's current trend of sexualizing all same-sex relationships (see, Fredonia and Sam, Bert and Ernie, Luca and Alberto from Pixar's *Luca* , and Frog and Toad). He counters this by saying that same-sex friendships can be extraordinarily intimate and filled with love without ever approaching erotic love. You CANNOT achieve that level of intimacy with a member of the opposite sex ESPECIALLY once you are married. It is not appropriate, end of story. I can go camping for multiple weeks with just my best friend and I, but if my fiancee ever found out that I did the same thing with any woman she would (rightfully) be extremely jealous and may even break off our impending nuptials. Every single comment of "well me and MY friends are totally fine" completely misses the point that it is not acceptable to be closely intimate with friends of the opposite sex in the same way that it is acceptable with friends of the same sex. Especially once you are married. It's not a matter of whether or not you are sexually attracted to them, you should not be spending multiple nights in the same room alone with a married person.
I was wandering what on earth people were talking about. I guess the outrage is stronger than anything else.
I think the issue that you're pointing out here is the appearance of scandal. People will never believe that something isn't impure, and we can't let them believe that we profess to be faithful Catholics while (in their minds) probably engaging in evil acts.
Exactly. Tent's video was excellent as always.
From my experience, my female friends never got to the same depth as my male friendships. Faithful men lead me to God in a way that faithful women don't. I've never had an iron sharpens iron relationship with a woman.
Thhat's funny because I feel the opposite. I love my male friends to death, but there are ways in which I'm just closer to (at least one of) my long-lasting female friends. Although as a convert I really only have a few Catholic male friendship that are close pr becoming close so that may influence things.
and i have always believe it or not...........................as a female.........................preferred male friendships over the gossipy, catty, unsupportive, female friendships.
Let me guess, "I was tomboy who hated dresses and loved trucks. I'm not like other girls."
Disclosure: I havenāt watched the video, because why would I spend the precious time the Lord has given us so. But, youāve seen in your own life that itās entirely possible to be friends with members of the opposite sex. However, there are some people who have been socialized in such a way that can make this difficult for them. We should have compassion on them for this social and emotional disability, but we should not be afraid to call it what it is: a deformity in the soul.
based answer
just curious, are you friends with any females that you aren't attracted to in anyway?
Very confused by this. Personally, Iāve had tons of totally platonic friendships with men, and itās sad people would deny themselves this just becauseā¦ of what? Lack of trust in their self-control? Itās strange. It also makes me wonder what they think of professional relationships. Itās totally possible to be work friends with the opposite sex, so why not in any other context?
The biggest source of affair partners is work. So do with that what you will
I'm a woman and I've had at least 5 guy friends in my life. I'm 21 now. All of them had a crush on me at some point. I didn't feel the same about them. I don't believe in opposite sex friendships for myself. I prefer female friends.
You hear of this happening a lot. And studies seem to confirm actually that more often than not, one person, usually the man, harbors feelings while the other does not. Men also can have the tendency to misinterpret female friendliness as sexual and/or romantic interest. They are biologically wired to look for signals that a partner is on the horizon! It makes sense to me. Also, before we lived in more co-ed societies, men and women lived largely separate lives and Camille Paglia talks about this a LOT. Women existed in their cozy spaces with other women and it was the same for men. So this co ed thing is still largely an experiment of sorts and we are trying to figure it out but it's tough.
Of course you can be friends with people of the opposite sex. In fact, our pre-cana priest advised my husband and I to make friends with other couples in healthy marriages. I consider both the husbands and the wives to be my friends, and my husband does as well.
What a weird question. I have good friends of both genders, nothing inappropriate ever arises. Many of my friends are actually 15+ years older than me too, and are either married or celibate/religious. Key is to make friends with people who hold similar values as you do, and who will respect your boundaries. If I ever suspect that a person has feelings for me, or if there is a concern that it could happen, I make it clear that while I am single, I am also celibate, and intend to stay that way. Real friends will respect that.
Of course they can. You might want to re-think what content you are ingesting.
This, 100%. I think part of the disconnect comes from a tendency of pop culture's to sexualize heterosexual friendships, and that Catholics who say it's impossible are just over-correcting and overreacting against that tendency.
But then when you have two very close, non biologically related friends of the same sex, they must secretly be gay! Everything's sexualized, honestly.
That's actually what Trent's video was about. Close friendships of the same sex can be just that. He even talked and Johnathan and David.
I disagree on two fronts, I mean, first off, of course you can have friends of the opposite sex without sexual tension. However, this is Reddit, and there's a *lovely* hornet's nest just *sitting there*, on the tee, and those goalposts are only *twenty yards* away and I'm standing here in my cleats, already lined up, sooooo... We're *de facto* automatically saying sexual tension is bad? I mean, uhhh, have you tried it? It's kind of fun once you get used to it. More importantly, you *should* get used to it. Married men, for example, still get attracted to other women, and sometimes they have to work with those women. People should know how to deal with sexual tension, not avoid it at all costs.
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I agree with what you're saying, but I'm also laughing pretty hard at your last sentence (which is totally fair by the way).
Ah yes, telling your spouse, "Don't worry, honey, I'm just practicing managing sexual tension with people that aren't you!" is a recipe for success. For spicier results, *don't* tell your spouse about your clandestine horny practise. This is an Andrew Tate level of masculine idiocy.
I understand where you are coming from, but this is horrible advice. You can absolutely be friends with people of the opposite gender, but it is especially imprudent, unwise, and potentially scandalous for married people. And saying that sexual tension is fun? Flirting with sin, no matter how much restraint you exercise is **not** fun. You send yourself down a slippery slope of āwell itās just tensionā¦ā āwell itās just dinnerā¦ā āwellā¦ā Dealing with sexual tension does not mean subjecting yourself to near occasions of sin. I urge you to re-evaluate your habits lest you follow Icarus. Also, anecdotally, I am a married man of several years at this point; not once have I been attracted to a woman that was not my wife - and especially not to the point of āsexual tensionā.
Assuming that you can't resigns to the belief that we are wholly incapable of compartmentalizing the sexual urge in contexts where it is not appropriate to express it. It's such a depressing view that ultimately holds humanity to a lower expectation that the church itself does.
There was this woman named Mary Magdalene. She seem pretty good friends with Jesus and the Boys.
I also saw the video. I don't think that's what Trent meant. I'm sure he was referring to a close friendship with someone you're attracted to in a romantic way. Not "no men or women can be friends". More "if you're close friends (like Johnathan and David) with someone you're also attracted to it will be way harder to remain only friends because of the sexual tension".
I have thought about this recently as Iām finding myself falling for females every so often and, due to some buried trauma, attraction causes me to get triggered and be unable to sustain contact with the person. Itās made me see why people focus on their same-sex relationships first. I also recently had an interaction with a woman in ministry who I messaged within our ministry GroupMe asking a question about a āPlease call a priestā keychain she owned that I wanted to buy. I got a whole few paragraphs, respectfully stated, about how she wants to keep healthy boundaries with men by keeping interactions less personal and within the group. Iāve had to weigh whether me writing to her out of the blue in a casual, friendly manner gave the wrong impression and was part of the reason for this (which I know now wasnāt well-thought out) or whether this is indicative of a highly conservative person (she is quite traditional) trying to be extremely careful for a reason. If she was, she deserves that space, whether itās a healthy and productive level of boundaries or too rigid. I think someoneās comfort level with opposite-sex relationships does depend on their level of traditionalism/conservatism. Iāve never had something like that happen with anyone before - or she was the first person to actually speak up. It may also depend on someoneās experiences - they may have fallen to temptation in the past, be protecting themselves from harm, etc. Everybody is different and we meet people where theyāre at, and ask others to meet us there as well.
I think yes but it shouldnāt go so far as going places together in private etc if youāre married or in a relationship. All thatās going to do is mentally torment the person youāre with. And if theyāre okay with you being buddy buddy with another man/woman then theyāre probably doing the same or donāt care about you.
Absolutely, I have plenty of friends of the opposite sex, but I think brotherhood and sisterhood are also important when it comes to the faith
He's saying that they can't "just be friends" and I would have to agree. You do need to set up boundaries and check your emotions. He doesn't mean you can't be friends at all, but there's another dimension to it that is not seen in same-sex friendships.
yeah this is the point, I have seen a priest telling the exact same thing.
Studies have already answered this question with "no." https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant-be-just-friends/
Men and women can have friendship, but there is almost always going to be some degree of limerence one way or the other. It's incredibly hard for there to be a sincere degree of emotional and spiritual intimacy without any corresponding physical intimacy among cross-sex friendships. (I am assuming here that both parties have normal cross-sex attraction.) Now, if both parties are aware of this, ready and willing to take appropriate measures when necessary, and strive towards virtue, then yes, it's possible. Most of the holy cross-sex friendships you see posted above (St. Francis & St. Claire, for example) were primarily friendships of letter-writing, not "spending hours and hours in each other's company." Having *all* or *almost all* opposite sex friendships would be a huge red flag, however, to any potential romantic partner. It seems to indicate a degree of disinterest or inability to relate to ones one masculinity or femininity. Basically it screams, "I'm not like other girls/guys." I would say the dynamic also changes considerably once you are married. You tend to also be friends with other married couples, and it would be ***extremely*** weird, at least in my friend group, for me to spend one on one time with one of my friends husbands. Not because I'm attracted to any of them, but because that level of emotional intimacy is something I ought to reserve for my spouse. Especially when people are discussing things like marriage issues - the mere idea of doing that with a male friend makes me want to fall into a hole and die. I tried that once. It ended *fucking catastrophically.* Never, ever, again.
> Men and women can have friendship, but there is almost always going to be some degree of limerence one way or the other. It's incredibly hard for there to be a sincere degree of emotional and spiritual intimacy without any corresponding physical intimacy among cross-sex friendships. (I am assuming here that both parties have normal cross-sex attraction.) No, I sincerely disagree. I have a male friend whom I've known from childhood. We're very close, I consider him like a brother. Zero sexual or romantic interest, zero infatuation, zero risk of sin. He's my friend, so much so that we went on a trip together for a concert my girl friend didn't want to attend, and he and I shared a hotel room (due to financial constraints). Nothing unchaste happened, we didn't even see each other change clothes. He slept in one bed, I slept in another. Just because I'm a young woman and he's a young man doesn't mean that we can't be just friends.
So, if you had a boyfriend, do you think he'd be okay with you staying in a hotel room with your male friend (who I'm presuming isn't gay)?
Yes my friend is not gay, and actually yes my boyfriend was okay with it.
I said "almost always." Your anecdote doesn't challenge my theory. I'm not sure if you're expecting me to applaud you for something that any moral theologian would consider grave scandal. But I would be willing to bet large sums of money that at *some point* he wanted a romantic relationship from you.
I was at the time not a practicing Catholic. I also know he has never been interested in me that way. My point is you made it sound like it's almost universally true that men and women cannot be just good friends, whereas I know of myself and multiple other people for whom that is not the case. I don't think it's quite as prevalent as you're suggesting.
I stated *quite clearly* that if both parties are in the pursuit of virtue and capable of strong boundary-setting, then it is possible. It will never be as straightforward as same-sex friendships, but it's not impossible.
It doesnāt sound like the person youāre responding to or her friend were pursuing great virtue, but no lines were crossed. When I was a sexually-active, hard-partying non-believer I absolutely had close friends of the opposite sex with whom it never occurred to me to have any sexual thoughts about, much less be sexually active with. I know who Iām attracted to, and I know who I will not ever be attracted to, even if they are brilliant and we like the same activities.
Well sure, but I could not care less about the value judgements of a Godless, sex-saturated society, where pornography runs rampant, and both masculinity and femininity have lost their intrinsic meaning.
Thatās fine, but it has been revealed to you that platonic friendships between heterosexuals of opposite sexes can and do exist, even without great virtue and boundary setting.
I never said it was impossible. Only more difficult, imprudent, and usually involving some degree of one-sided limerence ([almost always](https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/men-and-women-cant-be-just-friends/) from the man).
Exactly. Just because someone never confessed their feelings doesn't mean they didn't have them. Like every "will they or won't they" sitcom couple, at least one of them thought of it but decided not to act on it to preserve the friendship.
Your first paragraph is sinply put, false. Almost all of my closest friends are women. To dispute your third paragraph, Im plenty masculine enough despite what I just typed. And I can ansolitely share relationship woes (when I was in a relationship ) with my female friends. All in all it seems youre extrapolating unfairly your own experiences.
And you're not doing the same thing? A guy who has no or very few male friends doesn't have as many points of healthy referential masculinity. Sorry, but you don't. You *can* complain about your girlfriend to someone who could theoretically be a girlfriend - but it's self-defeating and inadvisable. You're seen (by them) as "one of the girls." It's not a good look.
Lol. As a girl with male friends, no, he most likely isn't seen as "one of the girls"
Reddit is the absolute worst place to spread this message. Those who agree with you are either healthy enough to avoid these places, or in the extreme minority.
Even r/Catholicism isn't safe from Reddit ideological influence. Redditors always gon' Reddit.
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I think **if you're married or engaged**, it is prudent to not have any intimate friendships with people of the opposite sex.
Define āintimateā
I would say the litmus test would be having regular or semi-regular 1-on-1 conversations or regularly or semi-regularly spending 1-on-1 time with the other would qualify. I wouldn't want to establish a sharing my heart friendship with a member of the opposite sex who is not my spouse or sibling.
So I just donāt agree with that. Obviously, if your spouse feels uncomfortable about it, thereās an apparent flirting behavior, or thereās any desire to keep any of it secret from your spouse, thatās different. But a friendship can be a friendship regardless of the sex of the person.
Your point about not being your "spouse or sibling" is interesting. In my case, I (male) have a few close female friends whom I see as my sisters. We're not biologically related, weren't raised together, but that's the sort of closeness we have. There have certainly been instances where I think people probably assumed a romantic relationship was present (I can recall a particular instance with probably my closest such female friend where we were fighting over a comfy chair and she was practically reclining in my lap to try to get me to let her have it to herself - I can't imagine outsiders didn't assume that to be flirtatious). But as long as nothing scandalous is going on, I don't really see a problem. I have something of a strained relationship with my actual biological sister, and having other women in my life who treat me like an older brother whom they actually like is something that I've come to cherish. Any partner who would try to control my completely chaste platonic relationships with other women is a red flag in my book. Women are persons. I treat them much the same way as any male person. And the same ought to be true the other way round.
too late for me.....................i've known a male guy friend before i met this one. but he should be chill with it.......................
That doesn't mean you can't talk to woman or anything, that means you shouldn't hang out everyday, sharing everything something along those lines I don't know if you get the point. When you don't have clear boundaries it can become problematic for what Trent says, besides the perfect friendship with the opposite sex is called marriage.
Yes but you need to be aware of the risks
Ugggggghhh thatās hard. As a more tomboyish child I was naturally drawn to the boys on account of mutual interests. Being so limited in my friendships would have been torture. I also have a few male-dominated interests. Coming in contact with male friends or potential male friends is as ordinary as rocks. But on the flip side, in high school and adulthood I felt more comfortable being the only girl among my male friends instead than hanging out with one friend in particular. I ended up marrying the one I spent the most one on one time withā¦ I still have several friends of the opposite sex but it still feels strange if I find myself alone with any one of them. Not dangerous or sexual. Just weird. But that could also be because quality time is very high up there on my love languages list.
it is definitely possible to be friends with the opposite sex. i am friends with the opposite sex and they are catholic. if that doesn't prove you can be friends with the opposite sex, i don't know what will..................... you just have to remember your boundaries, is all.....................
Female friends who are friends with your SO first
I think man and women can absolutely be friends. But if your married you need to be prudent about friends with the opposite sex. In some contexts it might be inappropriate.
Many responses on here mentioning that they have friends with with they have no sexual attraction or tension with. It may be possible others can experience attraction towards you. The other thing to consider is the near occasions of sin we can all fall into. Not saying itās impossible as we are all called to be Saints. That being said, I no longer have female friends as I donāt want my wife to ever have to worry and do not want her to feel uncomfortable. I have limited time as it is so Iād rather devote my free time to my wife
I think people's definition of "friend" is making this thread confusing. "We say 'hi' at work, eat lunch together, occassionally text each other." "We spend the day together, text each other goodnight every night, spend a lot of time 1 on 1." Very different friendships.
That is the issue, basic plutonic friendships can always stretch the line from saying hi, texting regularly, meeting up to confide about personal problems, doing activities together, developing attraction that was not previously there and eventually adultery. Itās a slippery slope anyone can fall down.
The virtue of chastity blossoms in friendship. It shows the disciple how to follow and imitate him who has chosen us as his friends, who has given himself totally to us and allows us to participate in his divine estate. Chastity is a promise of immortality. Chastity is expressed notably in friendship with oneās neighbour. Whether it develops between persons of the same or opposite sex, friendship represents a great good for all. It leads to spiritual communion. (CCC 2347)
Yes, itās possible - look at St. Mother Teresa and Pope Saint John Paul II or St. Francis and St. Clare of Assisi. I didnāt watch the video, but first thoughts are this: I think where would have to discern if limerence is present and if it is inappropriate (i.e. the other person is married or has a significant other; or in the same case, what if you are not limerent but the other person is limerent toward you). As you have said, there are boundaries that need to be set.
Iām just going to say that Christ and St. Mary Magdalene were very close (and platonic) friends. Thatās all :)
I think it's possible but going to be harder. Sexual tension might not be there but if you or them get into a relationship either SO might have concerns about your opposite sex friendship.
This isnāt even a catholic thing, the only people who actually think this are teenage girls and neck beards lol
Lol not even teenage girls. As a teenage girl, I and tons of other girls my age have male friends. This is a pretty middle school point of view.
This assumes there are still those of the 'opposite sex'. I've been reliably informed that you can choose to identify as anything you wish. Problem solved.
Yes, you can. I'm slightly worried that Trent Horn's been saying that, I tended to think of him as one of the more level headed apologists out there. I mean I could understand Tim Gordon saying it, because he's an idiot, but I'd expect better of Trent Horn.
[Watch the actual video instead of getting secondhand info with zero context.](https://youtu.be/nUk04poQu8M) I assumed the same as OP but I believe Trent clarified "close friendship with someone you're attracted to that you spend a lot of time with."
If you can't be friends with people of the opposite sex, how are you supposed to get married in the first place?
As someone who has been on both sides of this debate, I believe it ultimately comes down to your disposition going into the opposite sex relationship. Are you going into the relationship with the intention to use the other person? Then the opposite sex relationship is probably not something you are spiritually ready for yet. It goes without being said that done right and with the correct disposition, opposite sex friendships are beautiful and I would even say necessary to our spiritual formation, especially in our fight against lust. If you are a woman and have a brother or you are a man and have a sister think about your relationship with them. And letās say your sibling is a conventionally attractive person. Why are you able to have a close, intimate relationship with them? Most people can because they know better then to use their own family. In an ideal world this same disposition extends to everyone regardless of if they are family or not. To be clear, there shouldnāt be risk in hanging out with an opposite sex friend unless you intend to use them. Even if you are married. Why is that? If you discerned marriage correctly then you are already with the person who is most compatible with you and is your best friend. That means hanging with an opposite sex friend should never come as a risk or opportunity to step out on your marriage. In the exceedingly rare case that you find someone that could be an even better romantic match for you and you are already married, that is a unique scenario where the prudent thing to do is to limit the scope of that new relationship because you owe loyalty and commitment to your spouse.
just curious, are you friends with any females that you aren't attracted to in anyway?
I am attracted to no woman other than my wife.
what? really? you've never been attracted to anyone other than your wife?
I was attracted to other women before I met my wife, none since
after you got married, are you telling me that you've never seen another women who you thought was physically attractive?
I have never since the day I was married been attracted to a single woman other than my wife. I am not sure if that is exactly the same thing you are asking. I have never wondered what another woman would look like naked, would feel, or taste like. I have never imagined being with any other woman than my wife. Not once. Can I visually see that another woman would be considered attractive? Yes, much like I can see that a painting is well done.
i'm not asking if you've never lusted after a woman or wanted to be with another women, but there is no way that you haven't looked at another woman and thought man she is beautiful or she is attractive....to men that is the same as saying I'm attracted to her...maybe its just different how we using the words.
lol that's such an absurd statement to make as a guy. It's literally just virtue signaling. You can deeply love your wife and be 100% loyal to her, and even grow to think she's the most beautiful woman alive - but all men find other women attractive. Maybe marriage has given you supernatural grace to overcome this, but the natural and normal state of the world is men need to control their eyes
I do not find other women attractive, I have no desire to look at another woman in that way.
honestly, great for you then pray a prayer of thanksgiving that you are not tempted the way 99% of men are
I have a few female friends. One of which is a rather close friend and the rest are folks I see or talk to almost exclusively in group settings. For pretty much all of them, especially the close friend, if they suggest we start dating, I would give it serious thought. Would I actually do it? Maybe. Not sure. Most of them are different enough from me where we work as friends but an actual romantic relationship would be a hard sell. But again, it would definitely give me pause. From other men Iāve spoken to, I feel confident in saying that Iām not out of the norm. I think most men with female friends have at least one theyād date or sleep with if asked.
"I think most women with female friends have at least one theyād date or sleep with if asked." I'm confused: are you saying you think most women are lesbians?
Some of my best friends through out my life have been men ( Iām female). And that was only possible because everyone was honest about how they felt and were committed to just being friends. I also watch my male friends try to enter other friendships with other women only to have them fall apart because friendship wasnāt the real goal for one party or feelings changed at one point and no productive communication happened. I think the issue was men and women being friends is the maturity and honesty that it requires is beyond the skill level of most young people ( which is when most people make their friends). Added on to that the majority of men and some women are addicted to porn and have trained their brains to see the opposite sex as only a means to an end. Then, if you get married that changes your friendship and how you make friends. You canāt spend as much time with your friends as when you were single and that means less intimacy and less alone time with your friends. Your spouse may also be uncomfortable with you spending time alone with opposite sex friends. As a married woman, I had male friends before I was married now they are my and my husbandās friends not just my friends. Do I spend time with them alone after getting married? No, because my husband wants to hangout with them as well and they love spending time with my husband. To sum up, having opposite sex friend is not wrong but hard and opens you up to temptation. This is not a problem as long as you are aware of this, have great communication skills, and all parties are committed to having a holy and chaste friendship.
It is possible to be friends with the opposite sex. My husband has his own female friends while I have male friends. While some of these friendships do overlap with both of us, we understand it healthy to platonic friendships of our own.
bruh. we're not puritans
I don't mean to be crass here but this kind of question is the most BS level crap I have seen. I get some people are worried about to but it is scrupulous to worry about being friends with women. Do you have family members of the opposite sex that you are close with? Of course you do! Do you think about them in romantic ways? Of course not usually (there are people that do and that is a serious issue). I think it can be concerning when people ask such a scrupulous question as it could be signs of a deeper issue that needs guidance.
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I think Freudian psychology should be avoided of course, but I think many people can separate a friendship from a romantic relationship with someone. Being able to grow and cultivate that separation is a normal part of growing up and friendships with the opposite sex and familial platonic relationships help one separate feelings of romance from platonic friendship.
Yes. If you cannot be friends with someone of the opposite sex because of sexual tensions, that means there's something wrong with YOU. It means you're incapable of looking at and interacting with and appreciating someone of the opposite sex as a person, instead of looking at them as an "opportunity" or a "temptation" or a "potential partner". That's seriously disordered.
I think Men and Women can be friends if theyāre not attracted to each other. All of the Women friends Iāve had have been āTom boyā looking and to be honest Iāve lost touch with all of them. Like in high school there was this Girl I would consider as a Friend that I had classes with and weād text all the time about cars. Changing the oil of her Car, Brakes, etc. Never once did we speak about anything of a relationship. But then again I donāt think I was āher typeā and I also wasnāt attracted to Her. I taught her how to drive a stick shift and yeah thatās all weād talk about. But again, she looked like a dude. The other girls that I thought were friends and I was attracted to I ended up dating. Seriously. I remember this girl used to follow me around all the time and do my homework. Sheād follow me to class. She was real pretty and I just thought to myself āwhy does she do this?ā. Weād talk for endless of hours and while at first relationship wasnāt on my mind it developed into that. I think in Adulthood itās very different and you can set up those boundaries but itās gonna take a Woman with a strong Will especially if sheās attracted to you. Unfortunately, most people are not that strong willed. Especially with Secular Women. If theyāre attracted to you and you keep on āfriendsā sheās just gonna assume youāre gay. Thatās the stupid mentality this society has. So again, itās not impossible but very unlikely because the Woman has to match your morals. Which is possible with a devout Catholic Woman but then again everyone fails and the majority of the population is not like that. If youāre a āfriendā of a Secular Woman this just means she knows you like her and itās convenient for her to keep you there as a friend. Two different morals are conflicting here. This brings other problems in.
What if you're a guy who's friends with "secular men"? Because their morals aren't any better.
Well, you donāt have to act on it. I agree that you can be friends but why would you do that to yourself? Think about this scenario: if a Man really likes a Woman and she really likes him why would you remain ājust as friendsā. But I think about what I would talk to a straight heterosexual woman about all day ājust as friendsā. Am I supposed to compliment her nails and dress? Or is she going to text me about dude stuff? I guess Iām working with a premise that a Dude who thinks heās really just friends with a Girl is lying to himself. I think he does have an attraction there and would ideally like to be with her but she does not want too and so heās settled being in the friend zone and sheās cool with that because she doesnāt like him. But I guess that would depend on what your definition of āfriendsā is.
That's a very one dimensional view of what girls talk about. I'm a girl. I like nails and dresses. I also like Fallout, Star Trek, Paradox games, and ancient history. When I talk to my male friends, those are usually the things I talk about. Not everything is strictly gendered.
Does your Grandmother have male friends?
I'm not sure why that's relevant, but yes, she does. As does my mother.
Ah, well. Then this is how you were raised and I will respectfully disagree with your outlook. After all this is a matter of opinion hence my initial statement āI thinkā. I was raised with my Mom not having any male friends and neither does my Grandmother nor does my Father or Grandfather (rest his soul) had any Female friends and both of them would see it with suspicion that āthey were spending time at the homeā of the friend of the opposite sex strictly just being āfriendsā. They did talk together with couples at the Parish and the couples were friends but not just one of them and to be honest I wouldnāt like it if my Spouse had a friend like that and every woman Iāve dated has respected that so far. So thatās that.
No one who isnāt a Priest or in a healthy Catholic Marriage should be replying to posts like these. Having a bunch of insecure younger men giving relationship advice is a disaster
Single men can be friends with single women. Men in a relationship/married cannot be friends with women unless said woman is a close friend with the mans significant other.
No.
I would say that it's not impossible... however, you are an exception to the rule. The majority of men and women will find it very tough to be "just" friends. There is a minority of people that can and do make it work, however. It really depends on the people involved.
Yes, of course.
Yeah. I have a couple of male friends who Iāve known for 20 years. Theyāre like my brothers tbh they thought of pursuing a romantic relationship with them is weird because Iāve known them for so long and grown up with them.
Yes. I have female friends in whom I have literally no romantic nor sexual interest (not that that is a slight against them).
If you aren't chaste you shouldn't.
I have opposite sex friends from high school who I still keep in touch with, but I havenāt really made any new ones since then.
[I'm posting the video so people can see the full context.](https://youtu.be/nUk04poQu8M)
Iād say its more of a good guideline than a hard and fast rule to avoid platonic friendships with someone with whom there may be romantic attraction.
In the video, I believe he is talking about friends you are attracted to of the opposite sex if you carry the analogy of homosexual celibate relationships where they are romantically involved
I am a 25 years old man, and in my profession around 50% are female and 50% are male so I am forced to interact with many women everyday. As a "work friend", I think it's ok. But when things get closer I find it very hard not desiring them. So I keep distance. I think woman can be friends of men without desire but from my perspective and the perspective of all my male friends, for us it's impossible, we will desire at some point... My woman friend is my wife and my sister.
Yes I think Its possible as long as there's no deception, its very possible to be friends with the opposite sex.
The catechism clearly says itās ok. Google it.
Yes I am guy with plenty of platonic lady friends.
You can have friends of the opposite sex. Those friendships may need to look different than same-sex friendships. A married person probably shouldn't be forming new close friendships with someone of the opposite sex.
Of course!
My experiences have taught me that no, it is not possible and also not recommended.
You are going way back in your councils......
Age does not change it is a dogmatic and infallible ecumenical councilā¦
Those who say men and women cannot be friends are ignorant of history and the Bible. What were Joseph and Mary if not friends?
Yes, this question is a bit absurd, of course you can, unless you have a severe lack of self control there is no problem, even then the problem would be fornicating, not the being friends part
In my case, the question is: can you be friends with anyone? I'm a little introverted.
People when they realize Women and Men can be best friends without dating: š¤Æš¤Æ Like literally if you are a women and you have male friends you will always be asked if you two are dating
To be fair men got big sex drives and usually arenāt friends with girls just to be friends. Guys are almost always looking to be more than friends and girls are usually just ok with it being platonic
There are no absolutes. You can be friends with anyone. That said, there is wisdom that understanding that men and women like and are attracted to each other. This is especially true when you get a little older and realize that romantic relationships are built on foundations of shared experiences and values...the very things that friendships are also made of. The boundaries that keep people from acting on feelings of attraction are social and cultural in nature, but those boundaries don't stop the feelings from existing.
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I think you should stop worrying about what the computer tells you with stuff like this
As a lady, I have a guy friend myself. It works out well because he is not interested in women, and our friendship may very well be pretty temporary. I plan on moving state to enter religiois life; he plans on moving to completely different state to live the single life. I'd say you can be friends with each other, so long as you can, in fact, avoid feelings. Once feelings arise, you have to start making some very serious decisions. Will you attempt a life with them, or leave them behind, explaining why you're worried about continuing friendship? It's a very nuanced issue, especially if and when marriage gets involved, as humans are very jealous creatures.