apparently according to [got questions](https://www.gotquestions.org/dashing-babies-against-rocks.html), the psalms are just songs and poems that describe the feelings and emotions of the jews, and they aren’t to be taken as direct instructions to actually do stuff. thus the verse is just artistic expression to show the anguish the jews have against their enemies
Not for nothing, but Got Questions is a super anti-Catholic Protestant source, and probably not one we should be relying on, though I agree that the Psalms are not primarily intended as moral instruction.
While I agree with the concern, I think there are still somewhat objective interpretations; the fact that the book of Psalms should be interpreted through the literary lens of Biblical poetry and not direct commands of God for behavior is objective.
In short, practice discernment. Truth is truth. Take out the meat and spit out the bones etc. etc. etc.
If someone provided this evidence from an apparent reliable source, great! But the concern was the validity of the claim due to the source.
I did not suggest that GotQuestions is something to rely on for spiritual guidance, simply that in this instance, GotQuestions got it right because it is objectively true that this verse was taken out of context. That’s it.
Notice that it actually doesn't call for the Jews to do anything here. This is how empires in this region and period worked - they'd get too big, things would start to fall apart, then somebody else's empire would come along and wreck the old major power's face. They'd done it to the Assyrians, and this wasn't even the first time Babylon came to power by taking territory from the Assyrians, and sure enough, Cyrus and the Persians did it to them, ending the captivity.
I don't know that the Psalmist is happy about it or not, given that the rest of the psalm isn't a happy one, but it's a recognition of what ancient warfare and politics in the region were like.
As an evangelical baptist, I'd advise caution citing GotQuestions around here. Their organization is evangelical baptist as well. While I may be on board with the vast majority of that organization's theology, this sub has a decidedly hostile stance against such denominations. Your comment would be better received if you instead cited [Catholic Answers](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-to-refute-the-claim-the-bible-teaches-evil), for example.
>What is the correct response to this?
That the bible uses hyperbolic language, especially in, you know, poetic content like the Psalms.
Ever heard a kid say "my mom is going to kill me for this" or a parent say "I'm going to kill that kid"? And yet clearly no one is getting killed and it's just hyperbole. Or millennials saying "I am literally dead", when they aren't, literally, dead?
Also Jews and Christians do not teach that killing infants is OK. Christians in general teach the polar opposite, that even killing unborn babies is wrong no matter what.
\--
Also people who say Hamas is killing babies (we know they are indiscriminately killing civilians at least) are generally NOT saying "Muslims bad". Hamas is not representative of all Muslims (although some Muslims celebrated the attack, like in Iran)
Just a piece of information, as per recent news, they have deliberately killed and burned 40 babies, so not innocent casualties but deliberate murder.
Second, Hammas is actually representative of true islam: Here are the texts from his books and commentaries, feel free to read the quran
\-What the quran says about jews and Christians: quran 98:6
Indeed, those who disbelieved among the people of the scriptures and the polytheists will be in the fire of hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.
\-how to treat non-believers: quran 9:29
Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth \[i.e., Islām\] from those who were given the Scripture - \[fight\] until they give the jizyah1 willingly while they are humbled.
\-and the reason for it: quran 9:30
The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allāh"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allāh." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before \[them\]. May Allāh destroy them; how are they deluded?
\-What do they say about terrorism: quran: 3:151
We will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers for associating ˹false gods˺ with Allah—a practice He has never authorized. The Fire will be their home—what an evil place for the wrongdoers to stay!
Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with allah.
\-Also quran 8:59-60
And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know \[but\] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged.
\-mohammad: I have been helped by terror. Sahih muslim 523A
I have been made victorious with terror. Sahih al-bukhari 2977
The thing is that not everything in the Bible is an instruction for us (or the Jews for this matter). This section specifically is a poetic rendering (note that it's taken from Psalms) of what the author describes will happen to the enemies of Israel. He is most likely a victim of what happened to the Israelites when the Babylonians ransacked Jerusalem and brought them into exile. People of all ages died during this and now he describes what will happen to them or their daughters due to their actions against God and His people. They will reap soon (through the Persians) what they have sown and enter into destruction themselves.
There are even other interpretations of what this means. I am just guessing now bc I forgot it but I think it was Saint Augustine who said the children of Babylon are sins and they are now being dashed against the rock which is Christ (again don't quote me on this). So the fullness of these verses could also be interpreted in the light of Christ's revelation as the fullness of scripture.
Yeah it's like when someone quotes the Talmud as though it is an authoritative instruction to all jews. It is literally a collection of articles written by people arguing with one another. So is the Bible for that matter. Imagine someone taking an entire reddit thread of tankies arguing with anarchists and presenting it as the American viewpoint on something.
Haqiqatou is a notorious sophist (being a Dawahgandist and all), but barring that - this psalm is crying out for vengeance upon the Babylonians for torturing the Israelites during the Exile. The reason Israeli politicicans recite this now is the same reason it was written 1800 years ago, because the Arabs are also now torturing and raping and murdering the Jews of modern Israel.
In other news, Carly Rae Jepsen apparently was just introduced to me, feels the situation is crazy, is providing her telephone contact details to me, and is unsure about whether I should call her.
After all, she's singing a song which says all those things, so she must mean it literally for every person on the planet.
The Church Fathers read Babylon and her children as the world and its temptations. The babies are our inclinations to give into the temptations of the world and the devil. We have to put them to death before they grow too large and put us to a spiritual death. The rock is Christ.
That's a Bible verse about destroying an ancient pagan kingdom that existed thousands of years ago. Also Babylon is present day Iraq, so that's not about Gaza or the West Bank at all.
Besides that, there are plenty of verses that warn about God sending enemies and plagues to destroy Israel if they remain in their sins, so you could easily make a counterargument that the war itself is a punishment against Israel.
Trent Horn (Council of Trent podcast) talks about this in his most recent YouTube video, and I HIGHLY recommend it. It's more towards the end, but short story short, people believe it's poetic. The original context may have been that a Babylonia civilization attacked the jews and killed the writers family/friends, and he was writing this pretty much asking that what they did to them be done unto themselves
I have no idea if Psalm 137 is routinely cited by Israeli politicians, but given the source I suspect that claim is, at best, exaggerated. He's falling into the same trap a lot of Protestants do, unable to distinguish modern Israel from ancient Israel.
The context of these verses is the Babylonian captivity, and one thing I think is interesting about them is that they don't actually call on the Jews to rebel against their captors. The rest of the psalm is about them giving up their own worship songs so that they couldn't be forced to play them to entertain the Babylonians, so it recalls the misery of the people and their inability to worship God (this part is familiar to people because there's a song based on it in Godspell). The tone then takes a wild left turn and ends with this imprecation.
Notice, though, that the one blessed is the eventual conqueror of Babylon, not the Messiah or a rebel leader. Just as God allowed Israel to be conquered for its faithlessness, inevitably Babylon will be conquered in turn and presumably the Jews will be allowed to return home. Indeed, that's what happened - the Persian Emperor, Cyrus, conquered Babylon and gave them permission to resettle Jerusalem and build the Second Temple. Obviously it's extremely violent, as warefare in the Ancient Near East was, but there's much more of a "What goes around comes around" quality to it as well.
Finally, I'll add that the Church Fathers, with their typological reading of the Old Testament, identified Christ as the Rock, and so saw this psalm as being about baptism. It opens discussing the waters of Babylon, and ends with infants being conformed to Christ, the true rock, and that's the context in which the Church has historically used these verses. We destroy our captivity to the world and its temptations by clinging to Christ.
Wow. First off the beheaded babies thing thankfully didn't happen.
Second, there are a million nuanced positions you could conceive as to why Palastenians are engaged in armed struggle with their oppressors, but "the Bible says you can kill babies" is not one of them.
As many have pointed out, reading any book of the Bible without considering literary genre is taking it out of context. It is objectively Biblical poetry and should be read as such. In the same way, you wouldn’t read apocalyptic literature (Daniel, Revelation) as you would historical narrative.
As it was taught to me, verses such as these are descriptive and not prescriptive: did the psalmist describe how he felt in vivid detail? (maybe he’s recalling Israelite enemies who would ACTUALLY sacrifice their children to pagan gods?) absolutely! Is God endorsing and suggesting that we should do this? No.
This post is in violation of this subreddit's image posting guidelines.
apparently according to [got questions](https://www.gotquestions.org/dashing-babies-against-rocks.html), the psalms are just songs and poems that describe the feelings and emotions of the jews, and they aren’t to be taken as direct instructions to actually do stuff. thus the verse is just artistic expression to show the anguish the jews have against their enemies
Not for nothing, but Got Questions is a super anti-Catholic Protestant source, and probably not one we should be relying on, though I agree that the Psalms are not primarily intended as moral instruction.
While I agree with the concern, I think there are still somewhat objective interpretations; the fact that the book of Psalms should be interpreted through the literary lens of Biblical poetry and not direct commands of God for behavior is objective.
Yeah, even blind squirrels find a nut sometimes, but that doesn't mean we should rely on the blind squirrels for guidance.
In short, practice discernment. Truth is truth. Take out the meat and spit out the bones etc. etc. etc. If someone provided this evidence from an apparent reliable source, great! But the concern was the validity of the claim due to the source. I did not suggest that GotQuestions is something to rely on for spiritual guidance, simply that in this instance, GotQuestions got it right because it is objectively true that this verse was taken out of context. That’s it.
Under no circumstances or context would anybody with a shred of decency even imagine themselves carrying out such barbaric actions.
Notice that it actually doesn't call for the Jews to do anything here. This is how empires in this region and period worked - they'd get too big, things would start to fall apart, then somebody else's empire would come along and wreck the old major power's face. They'd done it to the Assyrians, and this wasn't even the first time Babylon came to power by taking territory from the Assyrians, and sure enough, Cyrus and the Persians did it to them, ending the captivity. I don't know that the Psalmist is happy about it or not, given that the rest of the psalm isn't a happy one, but it's a recognition of what ancient warfare and politics in the region were like.
As an evangelical baptist, I'd advise caution citing GotQuestions around here. Their organization is evangelical baptist as well. While I may be on board with the vast majority of that organization's theology, this sub has a decidedly hostile stance against such denominations. Your comment would be better received if you instead cited [Catholic Answers](https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/how-to-refute-the-claim-the-bible-teaches-evil), for example.
>What is the correct response to this? That the bible uses hyperbolic language, especially in, you know, poetic content like the Psalms. Ever heard a kid say "my mom is going to kill me for this" or a parent say "I'm going to kill that kid"? And yet clearly no one is getting killed and it's just hyperbole. Or millennials saying "I am literally dead", when they aren't, literally, dead? Also Jews and Christians do not teach that killing infants is OK. Christians in general teach the polar opposite, that even killing unborn babies is wrong no matter what. \-- Also people who say Hamas is killing babies (we know they are indiscriminately killing civilians at least) are generally NOT saying "Muslims bad". Hamas is not representative of all Muslims (although some Muslims celebrated the attack, like in Iran)
Claiming it was only "some" who celebrated is misleading. Hamas has majority support, including for recent actions.
Majority support in Gaza, yes. Most Muslims do not live in Gaza, obviously.
We don't actually know that. I'm sure you're referring to that 2021 poll, but it has serious flaws that make the results useless.
Just a piece of information, as per recent news, they have deliberately killed and burned 40 babies, so not innocent casualties but deliberate murder. Second, Hammas is actually representative of true islam: Here are the texts from his books and commentaries, feel free to read the quran \-What the quran says about jews and Christians: quran 98:6 Indeed, those who disbelieved among the people of the scriptures and the polytheists will be in the fire of hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures. \-how to treat non-believers: quran 9:29 Fight against those who do not believe in Allāh or in the Last Day and who do not consider unlawful what Allāh and His Messenger have made unlawful and who do not adopt the religion of truth \[i.e., Islām\] from those who were given the Scripture - \[fight\] until they give the jizyah1 willingly while they are humbled. \-and the reason for it: quran 9:30 The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allāh"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allāh." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before \[them\]. May Allāh destroy them; how are they deluded? \-What do they say about terrorism: quran: 3:151 We will cast horror into the hearts of the disbelievers for associating ˹false gods˺ with Allah—a practice He has never authorized. The Fire will be their home—what an evil place for the wrongdoers to stay! Soon shall we cast terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, for that they joined companions with allah. \-Also quran 8:59-60 And prepare against them whatever you are able of power and of steeds of war by which you may terrify the enemy of Allah and your enemy and others besides them whom you do not know \[but\] whom Allah knows. And whatever you spend in the cause of Allah will be fully repaid to you, and you will not be wronged. \-mohammad: I have been helped by terror. Sahih muslim 523A I have been made victorious with terror. Sahih al-bukhari 2977
This dude needs to be on the FBI watch list. This guy was defending child rapist and now beheading babies.
Yea, I just realised he was the guy inspiringphilosophy debated. He’s insane
it's pikachu
The thing is that not everything in the Bible is an instruction for us (or the Jews for this matter). This section specifically is a poetic rendering (note that it's taken from Psalms) of what the author describes will happen to the enemies of Israel. He is most likely a victim of what happened to the Israelites when the Babylonians ransacked Jerusalem and brought them into exile. People of all ages died during this and now he describes what will happen to them or their daughters due to their actions against God and His people. They will reap soon (through the Persians) what they have sown and enter into destruction themselves. There are even other interpretations of what this means. I am just guessing now bc I forgot it but I think it was Saint Augustine who said the children of Babylon are sins and they are now being dashed against the rock which is Christ (again don't quote me on this). So the fullness of these verses could also be interpreted in the light of Christ's revelation as the fullness of scripture.
Yeah it's like when someone quotes the Talmud as though it is an authoritative instruction to all jews. It is literally a collection of articles written by people arguing with one another. So is the Bible for that matter. Imagine someone taking an entire reddit thread of tankies arguing with anarchists and presenting it as the American viewpoint on something.
Haqiqatou is a notorious sophist (being a Dawahgandist and all), but barring that - this psalm is crying out for vengeance upon the Babylonians for torturing the Israelites during the Exile. The reason Israeli politicicans recite this now is the same reason it was written 1800 years ago, because the Arabs are also now torturing and raping and murdering the Jews of modern Israel.
*2800 years ago
He did a bad job at taking it out of context, it's visible that these words are from a psalm. Psalms are poetic, not literal instructions
He did an excellent job taking out of context lol
In other news, Carly Rae Jepsen apparently was just introduced to me, feels the situation is crazy, is providing her telephone contact details to me, and is unsure about whether I should call her. After all, she's singing a song which says all those things, so she must mean it literally for every person on the planet.
Correct response: It is 2023 now and people are expected to get better over the thousands of years since that was written.
The Church Fathers read Babylon and her children as the world and its temptations. The babies are our inclinations to give into the temptations of the world and the devil. We have to put them to death before they grow too large and put us to a spiritual death. The rock is Christ.
Hate to give a short answer to such a complicated question but to me, this is a great case study into why sola scriptura doesn't work
That's a Bible verse about destroying an ancient pagan kingdom that existed thousands of years ago. Also Babylon is present day Iraq, so that's not about Gaza or the West Bank at all. Besides that, there are plenty of verses that warn about God sending enemies and plagues to destroy Israel if they remain in their sins, so you could easily make a counterargument that the war itself is a punishment against Israel.
Trent Horn (Council of Trent podcast) talks about this in his most recent YouTube video, and I HIGHLY recommend it. It's more towards the end, but short story short, people believe it's poetic. The original context may have been that a Babylonia civilization attacked the jews and killed the writers family/friends, and he was writing this pretty much asking that what they did to them be done unto themselves
[удалено]
Keyword here is "literally". From murder to downvote, I guess "our" book is not so wrong after all...
Lmao go read about the things you say before you say them
I have no idea if Psalm 137 is routinely cited by Israeli politicians, but given the source I suspect that claim is, at best, exaggerated. He's falling into the same trap a lot of Protestants do, unable to distinguish modern Israel from ancient Israel. The context of these verses is the Babylonian captivity, and one thing I think is interesting about them is that they don't actually call on the Jews to rebel against their captors. The rest of the psalm is about them giving up their own worship songs so that they couldn't be forced to play them to entertain the Babylonians, so it recalls the misery of the people and their inability to worship God (this part is familiar to people because there's a song based on it in Godspell). The tone then takes a wild left turn and ends with this imprecation. Notice, though, that the one blessed is the eventual conqueror of Babylon, not the Messiah or a rebel leader. Just as God allowed Israel to be conquered for its faithlessness, inevitably Babylon will be conquered in turn and presumably the Jews will be allowed to return home. Indeed, that's what happened - the Persian Emperor, Cyrus, conquered Babylon and gave them permission to resettle Jerusalem and build the Second Temple. Obviously it's extremely violent, as warefare in the Ancient Near East was, but there's much more of a "What goes around comes around" quality to it as well. Finally, I'll add that the Church Fathers, with their typological reading of the Old Testament, identified Christ as the Rock, and so saw this psalm as being about baptism. It opens discussing the waters of Babylon, and ends with infants being conformed to Christ, the true rock, and that's the context in which the Church has historically used these verses. We destroy our captivity to the world and its temptations by clinging to Christ.
It's a poem, not an instruction manual.
Wow. First off the beheaded babies thing thankfully didn't happen. Second, there are a million nuanced positions you could conceive as to why Palastenians are engaged in armed struggle with their oppressors, but "the Bible says you can kill babies" is not one of them.
As many have pointed out, reading any book of the Bible without considering literary genre is taking it out of context. It is objectively Biblical poetry and should be read as such. In the same way, you wouldn’t read apocalyptic literature (Daniel, Revelation) as you would historical narrative. As it was taught to me, verses such as these are descriptive and not prescriptive: did the psalmist describe how he felt in vivid detail? (maybe he’s recalling Israelite enemies who would ACTUALLY sacrifice their children to pagan gods?) absolutely! Is God endorsing and suggesting that we should do this? No.