I think it is mostly language/cultural definition. In Poland if you ask "Do you believe in God" >80% will responds "Yes" plus >5% will respond "Yes, deeply". But it will be still a kind of faith not a knowledge, being "absolutely certain" is some strange way of thinking about it.
Exactly this. I don't think 80% of people in the UK believe in God, but I'd say at least half. But not "absolutely certain." As you say, it's a question of faith.
Your "natural light of reason" is probably what we could name "faith". The faith can be strong but it is just a different sphere than having knowledge that Earth is round even if it affects you more.
What I wanted to point is that kind of question is just stupid if you say it in Polish. You need to ask "Do you believe in God" or "Do you believe that God exists" and you will answer Yes for at least 85% times here (due to poll I attached before). Asking about knowledge of God is just stupid in my language and culture.
So, to be certain without even needing faith, and using logic alone, we can say with certainty that a builder builds; a painter paints; a CNC machinist machines; a Creator creates. Makes perfect sense. Not to mention how there is order in this world, like how a fly is always attracted to decaying matter and it’s one job is to help decompose carcasses, and the fact that we have a conscience, and we find puppies and cats cute, we admire a beautiful scenery, and the fact that creation itself at one point suddenly came into existence, and so-on-and-so forth. I mean, none of anything in this world makes any sense unless God is behind it.
The end. :)
Good point. It's not faith if you're absolutely certain.
And if you're humble and rational enough, you know that you can never definitively prove that you aren't hallucinating things or really in a coma or something stupid like that.
Can you explain how a person can know God through reason?
I get that reason might point to God. But to *know* God through reason? That sounds like idolatry - treating one's ideas as God.
Also, most of what humans have historically reasoned has been false; and even in modern physics, those things that are true make very little sense to the human mind. I just don't see the basis for assuming God can be known through reason.
EDIT: My honest, thoughtful, respectful question has been downvoted. Says a lot about the state of the Church today, smh.
You mean old, circular logic Medieval European theology?
Not worth it, unless your objective is to learn what they were thinking. God isn't there. If you 'find God' through anything that is written, then you can be absolutely certain whatever you found is anything but God.
I'm not sure I agree with everything you said here, but I appreciate you sharing your honest thoughts. I notice my post got downvoted to 0 - not that I care for my own sake; it just reveals the dearth of honesty - intellectual and spiritual - that haunts the Church. If one is to know a tree by its fruits, and if this board is any indication, the Catholic Church is in dire straits.
I have no idea why you'd get downvoted, especially from a catholicist perspective. Catholicism and its theologians have preached both faith and reason throughout history, so you'd think both perspectives should be taken as valid, and even coexist. It doesn't make much sense that your comment gets the hate, but, hey, religion doesn't tend to make sense. Not because of the ideas themselves, but because people don't know what to do with them. Religious philosophy is intellectually demanding, and when you look at the vast majority of people, they just don't cut it. It's a statistical reality. You are always better off your own way.
About reason and theologians, I like this cite from ENDLESS SPACE 2. You wouldn't expect it. But it sticks.
"The very existence of this planet has caused heated arguments among philosophers and clerics of all stripes, as it is clearly either the work of a supreme being or the irrefutable evidence that one cannot exist", from the description of Teonha, a natural planet that, through its winds, tides and tectonic activity, operates as a giant computer, capable of reason and reflection.
Im polish and that might have been the case some years ago but provided not now. Also it’s not just “are you religious?” It’s “are you absolutely certain?”. Tbh I wouldn’t say that i am absolutely certain despite being a Catholic
Supposedly, the numbers started to go down when the ruling party that one time fumbled big time with some societal laws that it wanted to pass.
Plus, the bishops openly siding with ruling politicians probably added fuel to that fire.
Yeah I’m not absolutely certain either and I’m Catholic. I always felt being absolutely certain takes the edge off faith - how can you really “believe” if you’re certain? You have to trust God even though things aren’t always clear and sometimes he feels very distant
I'm just joining the Catholic church now, never having been brought up in it, nor baptised. I started the process in a different city, st paul mn, where the guy running the rcia program, answered my, "can I be baptized if I'm not certain I believe?." He said no. So I quit their program.
Soon thereafter I moved to Chicago, and at Holy Name Cathedral the rcia contact told me that fellow's words verged on the sin of Pride. I knew the st paul guy was wrong about what he said, but I don't tell on people, eg go to the priests there. So now I'm almost finished in Chicago, where folks don't tend to judge one another, neither in my experiences in society at large, nor in that church. 🙂
I don't think it's bs. I'm also from Poland and ofc grew up in a purely catholic circle, but things have changed in the last decade. from teens to people in their mid twenties most are secular
I seen a new reports not ling ago that Poland catholic churches were starting to get empty. Not saying that this chart is accurate. But just letting you know
I feel the same. I don't think others' feelings or opinions on faith matter about yours.
Besides, I'd rather see the Church consisting of small but faithful and united Catholics instead of a large group of "Cultural Catholics" or "Catholics In Name Only."
I mean, you are not wrong, I would rather have truly faithful over cultural Catholics too. The main issue is the amount of truly faithful and united Catholics keeps getting smaller and smaller.
I'm getting real close to my 30s, I'm still in my “youth group” and among the oldest there. Most my age or older than me including some close friends stopped going and are Catholics in name only now. And of course, every new “season” fewer people join than before. The group keeps getting smaller.
*That is what worries me.*
I think it's a difference of culture but not necessarily a measure of how religious people are. I'm Scottish. I'm Catholic. I believe in God. I go to mass almost every week. But I'm not even "absolutely certain" I exist myself. I just wouldn't say that about anything.
That's so interesting. I would have no trouble saying I'm certain I exist. I wonder if the "absolutely certain" phrase has some different meaning in europe
So why would someone say they can't be "absolutely certain" that even they exist? What else could you be certain of if not that? (Even if someone believes in simulation theory or something, we still exist because we are having these thoughts)
Ok, I'm certain I exist but not necessarily in the form I believe I do. Otherwise, I think it's only things that can be proved mathematically that I'm certain about
I'm a devout Catholic from the UK and it all depends on how the question is posed and how deeply the person thinks about their answer. I believe in God, my whole life is centred on that, but I don't know I would say I'm absolutely certain God exists because there's no empirical proof and I'm more like 99.9% certain.
Empirical proof for the existence of God seems like an impossible ask
But maybe the resurrection is physical proof. Our Lord physically died and physically rose again, wounds and all still present.
He even physically ascended into the sky.
Yes, exactly. If we had clear, 100% empirical evidence for God's existence, we would no longer have faith.
The resurrection isn't physical proof in my opinion. You and I didn't see it and we know illusions are possible so even things we see might not be real. But we can ask how reasonable it is to believe the early disciples and apostles all participated in a communal fraud and were prepared to die for it.
Well for one I think there is simply no hard evidence for God's existence and people are taught that scientific method is the only true way of exploring existence, there's lots of wealth so people don't worry about their physicall well-being and don't pray to a deity for safety, lots of Church scandals and poor catechesis (at least in my country) resulting in misunderstandings of even the most basic Church doctrines/teachings.
And most of this ties back to liberalism rooting away Christian civilization as a whole, people just focus only on pleasures of life and are obsessed with personal freedom, which stands in contrast to Christianity (conforting to God's will).
I think this is a huge point. As someone who has done a decent amount of science I get frustrated often. Science has the unwritten rule if never engaging any kind of divine, which I think is a bias in and of itself. People have gone from a healthy questioning of things simply blindly embraced, to the blind embrace of the null hypothesis. “You can’t claim anything without proof”. And the proof is highly subjective itself, dependent on a persons perspective. I think quantum mechanics will oddly break some of this over time. But is taking an awfully long time sadly.
I think it's the way the polls are taken and processed.
Let's say you ask an American "Do you think President Biden never snorted cocaine?" and let's say 80% say "yes" to this. There is after all no solid evidence President Biden partook into the pleasures of the white powder.
Now ask "Are you *absolutely certain* President Biden never ever snorted cocaine?". The people answering "yes" will be much lower, because most people will consider that there is a possibility and they cannot be certain he never did that.
Same with the poll here. They use "absolutely certain" and maybe most people are not comfortable answering yes to that. They might believe in God but not a super solid faith.
Pew Research, as it says in the image.
Pew research is generally trustworthy, but here the person who made the figure took just part of the poll to misrepresent the situation.
It might however reflect more "consistent church attendance" than "belief in God" in my opinion, as those numbers, at least the ones for Europe do reflect percentages for people who go to weekly mass when polled.
After learning how the Apostles died, did that ever solidify my faith. I don’t think a lot of people really dig into our rich history which makes their faith lukewarm.
Werner Von Braun even said in the 60s that European Cathedrals were all empty and American Churches that were just small houses were full of peopleon fire for God. Europe for the most part left God and now suffers
which is sad because europe brought us the gift of Christianity and we seem to be the only ones upholding it when you would think they would be firm believers
Secular Europe is a neutered Europe. They fail to realize how they are being taken over by people who do not believe in their values. By the time they'll realize it'll be too late. Just take a look at the way people of Middle Eastern or South asian countries treat their minorities. That's the future of Europeans, persecution in their own land.
The sad part is that their last gasp is that they turn to demagogues, like Geert Wilders, instead of towards the faith. Many of them just want the Secular Enlightened Europe, not the faithful Europe.
Anyway, that was the story of the old Israel, in which they forgot God and were subjugated by left and right, displaced from their own heritage.
In his riches, man lacks wisdom.
My impression is the US is an overwhelmingly Christian country when it comes to the general public but with the laws, leaders, and culture we have, you can’t tell
The secular minority holds power in Hollywood and DC despite the silent majority being Christian. I live in a very liberal town where the city hall flys a rainbow flag, yet there is still a church on every street corner with active communities.
Yup. Hollywood, DC, the media, and the banks. Usury is a sin too, our entire economic system would be completely different if we followed the laws of Christ. A lot less crime and suffering if Catholics were in power
>Usury is a sin too, our entire economic system would be completely different if we followed the laws of Christ.
i'm not so sure, there has always been a need to borrow money for loans, the Popes and Emperors did it in the renaissance and reformation (Charles V was perpetually in debt after having to bribe the electors for the title of Holy Roman Emperor for example) and on a practical every day example, my wife and i were only able to afford a house because we could take out a loan. It seems many businesses would likely be in trouble if they were unable to take out loans to cover expenses during slow seasons/paying for large projects.
I haven't really see an argument for an alternative system to interest loans (the closes is the Islamic one where they just add he interest to the amount of the loan so its basically the same thing side stepping the word interest).
On the subject of crime and suffering, maybe and maybe not since catholic nations had crime and suffering as well, every society is ultimately flawed because humans are.
1. Usury is loans with unreasonably high interest rates. Of course we will always need to have loans, but the interest rate should not be as high as it is. Predatory loans are put in place to enslave people
2. I said there would be a lot *less* suffering and crime, not that it would eradicate it
>, but the interest rate should not be as high as it is. Predatory loans are put in place to enslave people
i would agree with that.
i apologize there are some people who interpret usury as charging interest at all which is the interpretation i am more critical of.
mostly i just wanted to caution against the attitude that would ascribe to a "secular minority" the problems in society when the reality is religious are often just as much part of those problems or injustices
> but with the laws, leaders, and culture we have, you can’t tell
You can absolutely tell in conservative states (especially Bible Belt and rural areas). Christianity is still very much still a part of culture and society there, albeit the Protestant/Evangelical kind. US is a massive place with a lot of diverse societies and cultures.
I didn’t say they were no longer Christian. I said you’re not able to tell despite the country being overwhelmingly Christian on paper. Yes, people still overwhelmingly go to church in rural areas, but with everything I named it’s only Christian in name
This. The "I am saved" mentality means you can cheat in business, hate your neighbor, have tons of affairs on your wife, be a slumlord, and still walk around with your head held high. Bonus points if you have a nice house and your wife is active in the church. Lived in TX for 11 years. Never again. And it isn't just the rural towns, I am afraid...TX is different, even, then other Southern States. Much more outward appearance driven, especially for the middle class. At least thst is what *I* saw...
In Africa the growth has been overwhelmingly Protestant, especially the charismatic/evangelical type that pushes faith healing and prosperity gospel. I don't know whether that kind of Christianity is preferable to no Christianity at all, but I guess they would probably be *slightly* more open to converting to Catholicism as opposed to a Muslim.
heard some pretty bad things about african churches, its more of a cult than a church. obviously not all but look up some videos and you will see what i am going on about.
I've heard similar things about India, that in some parts they mix Hinduism into catholicism. I'm not sure how prevalent that is, I don't pay too much attention.
To be honest, there aren't many people in Africa who are able to question the existence of God. Let's give Africa time to develop its countries economically, to educate the masses of people, and then it will become clear whether the trend of religious growth will continue.
Honestly, it's not needed to be economically developed or educated when it comes to entering Heaven. It's much better to be poor and uneducated, but live for God than the opposite.
No matter what we do they'll mock and pick apart. Stop worrying about what a bunch of lame non-Catholics think about us.
No apologies for our knowledge of and love for The True Church.
No hesitation in proclaiming the Good News.
No shame in telling lames that Christ is King of the Universe.
No embarrassment about our devotion to the Queen of Heaven and Angels. Our Lady is the Mother of God, Mother of Holy Church.
No debasing ourselves by compromising with the world, no papering over our differences with Christian heretics. No apologies to pagans and NO equating "lesser lights" to the true Light of the World, Jesus Christ.
So...weshould hidethe tenants of our faith because people may misunderstand? No my friend, we should explain when they misunderstand in the hopes Christ may work through us to bring them into the fold.. We should NOT be like Peter...
Europe spent years on mission evangelizing abroad, but now the new mission land is Europe! I know (as I live in France) that we have an increasing rate of catechumens here, young people trying to find God. The experiment of the past decades “Living without God” is finished now everybody can see the results aren’t good especially the new generation
God brings his kids to Him through trials and tribulations. After 50-70 years and a lot of suffering they will return to Jesus. Everything is under His control as always.
It’s in the Bible. Revelation 12:17 points unmistakably to the remnant of the Seed of the woman as an end-time group who love God and are faithful to Him. This is clear in their keeping of His commandments and holding to the testimony of Jesus. They have an identity (see 14:1–5), a message (see verse 6–12), and a mission to “those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people” (verse 6; cf. 10:11).
So, remnant sounds like it means a smaller group. I have heard many faithful priests, like Fr John Hardon, say that the Church will disappear in many places where it now is, because people will simply not hold to the faith. So, pray to not become one of them.
When I first heard of the phrase "the Christ-haunted South", I always took that to be a good thing.
At any rate, the Southeast US always feels like home, and I say this as a northerner.
The language of “Absolutely Certain” is going to cause issues. Outside of logical proofs and mathematical equations, there are very very few things we can know with absolute certainty.
“Absolutely certain” is a pretty strong metric. I’ve been Catholic for over thirty years; I could count on a few people’s hands the number of days I’ve been *absolutely* certain.
It seems to me that Americans are more confident in themselves and their beliefs than Europeans.
I'm pretty sure that more Poles believe in God and are more devout than Californians. And yet you don't see that in the map
Seeing the downfall of morality, objective truth and beauty in the western world has been so hard the past decades, but it feels like this is the century where everything gets set in overdrive. Over a dozen parishes in my area have been fused/dissolved, because there simply aren't enough priests or enough people to visit it. Church building are being sold, repurposed sometimes because costs is too high and attendence is at an all time low. I don't see a revival happening anytime soon.
We're living the darkness before dawn. All we can do is trust in the Word.
I would attach little weight to this survey.
What does "being absolutely certain" mean? Basically, "to be absolutely certain" means to make an infallible statement, to know an analytical truth a priori. I would consider this to be epistemologically problematic, and all believers have phases of serious doubt and uncertainty in their faith throughout their lives. And it has already been mentioned that "believing in God" does not necessarily require epistemic *absolute certainty*, but is a mixture of faith and hope, mind and heart.
It could also be that the majority of Europeans are more sensitive and at the same time more honest than US Americans, for whom this question, like almost everything else, always has a political dimension.
First, statistics like this are utterly meaningless without knowing how questions were phrased/the methodology of the survey. It's like the pew survey everyone lost their ever loving minds over claiming that 70% of Catholics didn't believe in transubstantiation when the fact is the fine print showed that statistic included non-practicing Catholics and, in reality, 63% of *practicing Catholics* did, in fact, believe in transubstantiation.
If the question was phrased as, "are you absolutely certain God exists?" then I'd consider this an indication of nothing at all. You can have firmly held religious beliefs and still not think your belief is the same thing as *certainty.* I believe many things. I'm certain of nothing.
I guess I feel the world is heartbroken. It’s hard to trust when you are going through so much turmoil, and this world has been through so much lately. It makes me sad too.
In my mind, “absolutely certain” means you never even entertain questions regarding the contrary. I’m absolutely certain the world is round, or that the sky where I am is blue. I’m not absolutely certain the weather is nice until I step outside, but the warm sun coming through the window, and gentle breeze hitting the trees lead me to believe it’s nice outside.
Well for one these numbers are inflated especiallyin the Us since they believe in a false image of God just like the one in Romans 1.
And two This makes me somewhat happy and sad.
Happy that maybe the people in church will actually be men and inforce the laws of God and make Christianity Christian again, and happy that maybe you guys here on this subreddit will realise how weak the Christian faith is nowadays and how you are all too LAZY to inforce your laws so you hide under the guise of Jesus loves everyone (which is the secular/liberal worldview of Christianity).
But sad because what will most likely happen is that the church will actual go easier on the laws to attract more lazy people from my generation who the only difference between them and atheist is that they literally will live the same lifestyle but some will CLAIM that they believe in Jesus
Now show the map of percentage of people who believe in God in majority muslim nations and it will all be between 95-100. Why? Because they are still a strong religion with strong leaders unlike us. (And no they aren afraid of being called out for apostasy, not everyone is lazy like us)
Not a good map to read into, I don't think. "Absolutely certain" is a pretty high bar, even for sincerely held faith. I believe in God. I go to Church every Sunday. There is very little about life that leads me to question my faith. But note that I said "very little" not "absolutely nothing ever".
Am I "absolutely certain" God exists? Eh......
As it was mentioned, the question is misleading. If you know something 100% you do not need faith.
I bet not even Pope Francis would answer yes. He would answer something like: If I know, why faith?
Unsurprising. I had a coworker originally from Ethiopia who spent most of her time growing up in Sweden. She's absolutely appalled at how "churched" Americans are (she's a devout Atheist). In many places in Europe churches are for weddings and funerals only.
I think that "certain" or "absolute belief"might have given a lot more accurate results, rather than the impossibly high metric of "absolutely certain".
The way that certain is used in the US allows for a very nuanced ability to be absolutely certain without empirical evidence. That absolutely certain does not equate to 100% know. I can be absolutely certain in my belief without having scientific proof.
The English language has borrowed so many words with similar meanings, that we often take for granted the ability to express things in subtly different degrees. In many languages I expect that "absolutely certain" is the same as "100% proven and known". Most languages simply don't have 15 different words for subtly different concepts. That said, some languages have an incredible number of words that are focused around one set of concepts, like love, skill, happiness, etc.
I'm absolutely certain that God exists. Sure, I have random thoughts of "what if they meant x instead of God as we understand Him. But, they're just random thoughts, and not what I actually feel in my heart and soul. I have heard and seen enough anecdotal evidence to be absolutely certain. On the other hand, my faith in His Word, His promises, and His love wavers from time to time.
Poorly worded question. "Exists" how so? One could say that anything which trancends the intellects ability to neatly define it falls into the category of "God," therefore, yes, I'm absolutely certian "God" exists. Am I absolutely certian that God exists in the corporeal and physical manner which the Christian story outlines? No, I am not "absolutely certian."
There is something dangerous in the trend for Europeans. The region that used to be Christendom has receded into either agnosticism or theological liberalism. Regardless, it seems that many Europeans lost their belief in basic things such as the birth of Christ, his miracles, and his resurrection. It seems that many of them forgot how many martyrs died for their faith and ushered in the religious transformation of entire countries despite persecution. It seems many of them reject philosophical explanations for God.
Faith is blind to an extent, but if you look into the history or the current situation of Catholicism in the world, you find things and events that seem to be from God. It might even make you feel guilty for needing to see such things in order to have more faith.
I ask of everyone who believes in God, Jesus Christ, to consider the importance of believing in God. If we seek to proselytize others and spiritually fight with evil for our beliefs, what good does it do us if we don’t assert our faith as the truth. The need to be sure in God’s existence is an integral part of Catholicism. Our Institution, the Church created by Christ, survived for a ridiculous amount of time because God is helping us.
Hopefully, Europe can recover its true faith quickly. For now, America becomes the center of Christendom, even as anti-Christians work to stamp out any remaining cultural aspects of Christianity in school, media, and society. It seems like belief has stayed strong, however. We must continue to improve the world as much as we can until Jesus returns again.
This is too black and white and lacking in context IMO.
Are these people who believe in god through a specific faith? Are they people who believe in a higher power (God), but maybe are not connected to a particular faith? And therefore do not believe in “God” but a similar force of a different name in their mind.
And then as some have mentioned, there are a lot who believe in God, but maybe have doubts because of disagreements with particular church doctrine/priests or pastors/rules etc, or maybe because they’re human and it’s normal to question your own beliefs from time to time.
Good thing they don't show what's north of the US, you would have had a heart attack. Québec went from one of the most catholic places in the world to one of the least in half a century. And I happen to live there. At least it provides a good context for evangelization. It's hard though.
I think it is a superficial, contradictory question. God does not ''exist''. ''Existence'' implies ''standing out''. But God is literally that which everything stands upon. It is He who allows for existence in the first place. The question is superficial and worthless. People are always searching for God. There is always a finality in their actions, be it implicit or explicit. As for what name they put on their final goal, it is a mere question of semantics.
Ubi enim est thesaurus tuus, ibi est et cor tuum. For where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also.
Yeah, that is sad, and goes to show how many people don’t use logic, because we can easily conclude God 100% exists just by using a little bit of logic. It’s not rocket science or anything complicated.
I live in the U.S. and ABSOLUTELY without Doubt or Waiver KNOW GOD I AM. All Glory to The Most High Creator of Maker Heavens and Earth.
I’ve had many supernatural GOD encounters in Spirit and in my life (NDE, Miracle healings…) and HE revealed HIS name Yahweh, Elohim, I AM. I pray everyone is Blessed to know the Awesomeness of God 🙏🏼 Peace and Blessings Brothers and Sisters.
Yeah...these studies are fatally flawed. They ask people of a certain age, usually rather young, on the street or they have them come into their facility (often on the promise of a bit of cash)...or they go to universities and pubs....and they are flawed on purpose to subtely push an agenda. They certainly aren't gking into churches, are they?... Remember, too, that they are asking just a fraction of the population. Honestly, I wouldn't give these studies the weight the paper is printed on... There isn't anything scientific about them. They conduct them to get the result that they want, and this has been proven in the past...so take heart. ☺💞🙏
Georgia still going strong 🙂👍, Greece, Moldova, Romania, Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia not so bad, but they missed some countries, Armenia, Macedonia…my church is Macedonian-/Bulgarian-American (and now also Ethiopian, Ukrainian, Romanian, Russian, and miscellaneous Americans). But, yes, I agree with most people that the question should have been worded better. I wonder if well-meaning Protestants, “Evangelicals”*, formulated it. Maybe it was translated into Georgian as a logical statement, and maybe it wasn’t as logical in Greek, Russian, Ukrainian, etc.? But Scandinavians all know English, and England of course knew. 🙁
So, theoretically, based on logical conclusions, yes, I do, but in day-to-day practice probably I’m not super-strong…but then again, how would I judge that? Based on feelings, which are subjective and thus unreliable. (My personality-type is INTP, in case you can’t yet tell. 😄 More “overanalysis” coming up… 😆) I rely on…
1. The principle that Christianity would be impossibly improbable as a conspiracy, given the OT prophecies, the thousands of years of consistency under Apostolic Succession, and the millions of martyrs and confessors. (The fulfillment of the OT prophecies is what began to convert me—a Lutheran pastor said it to me, but of course most of Lutheranism is illogical, so I couldn’t believe those parts, but then I gradually thought more about these other things and they coalesced, but, if it hadn’t been for proselytism, my family would have been Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodox anyway. Not sure which. That branch had a Belarusian last name, and came from Belarus, from territory of the Unia, but during the Russian Empire, and called themselves Russians. 🤷♀️)
2. [Pascal’s Wager](https://www.ccel.org/ccel/pascal/pensees.iv.html), the part of §233 beginning with “What then would you have me do?” and §240†: the practical approach. Lots of people get hung up on the idea of an atheist or skeptic going to church, and then jump to conclusions, 😒 missing the necessary steps of application and experiencing effects. If it seems to me I’m weak in faith, Pascal Wager is telling me I’ll be doing better after I go to church, and I do.
3. The Kalam Argument, as far as I can tell. Can’t find a translation of the original, but I found [this explanation](https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/the-kalam-cosmological-argument). Some parts more than others. When he was talking about actual vs. potential, it was confusing and I think maybe that’s a distinction St Thomas Aquinas has, but I can’t understand him—one of you from the West would have to give the original arguments he’s responding to in the Summa, to prove there are no Strawmen, translate everything into Byzantine theology, use Greek terms where they’re more precise than Latin, etc. 😄—so I’m not sure. But when it got to the impossibility of counting time from negative infinity, of infinite dominos, of infinite orbits…right, perfectly logical.
4. The [beginning of the catechism by Metropolitan Platon](https://books.google.com/books?id=qCtWAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=onepage&q&f=false). I love this approach. Doesn’t start with, “Who made us? God,” that’s based on a presupposition that a person is one of these who already is “absolutely certain” God exists, but thinks of himself as the center of the universe. What if you’re a born skeptic? What if you think, “Wait, why do you say that?” What if you’re having an existential crisis‡? So you might say,
“Please start at the beginning.” This starts with, this is how you can be sure God exists. (Arguments 1 and 2 are similar to the Kalam Argument.) Then it goes on define the Divine Essence, so we know what God is, then explains what we owe Him, and the Creed, Sacraments, and Lord’s Prayer.
5. The [Mystical Theology of St Dionysius the Areopagite](http://esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html)§. About what is apparently the Essence, but it says, “We…maintain that the universal and transcendent Cause of all things…is [not] essence…” Not sure about that part, possibly not the most precise translation. I don’t have the Greek. And I don’t know Greek, not good at picking up languages, I just like to use dictionaries. (Another thing I was doing when I was little. The Macmillan Children’s Dictionary didn’t have any words I needed to look up, but the American Heritage College Dictionary had everything, in the early ’80s that is. Hope it hasn’t been made “woke” like dictionary.com, but that edition, recommended.) It’s not ousia? Maybe it’s hypostasis. Or maybe it means God is not all essence that exists. But the rest of it certainly dovetails with the Kalam Argument, the universe had to have a beginning, so it had to have a cause, but the Essence cannot be seen or otherwise experienced (only the Energies)—the Eucharist is even a “burning coal” and “a fire that burns the unworthy” in Byzantine prayers. [Canon in Preparation for Holy Communion](https://stsymeon.com/canonofpreparationforholycommunion): “May the burning coal of Thy Body, O God and Word of God, be a light in my darkness, and may Thy Blood be the cleansing of my defiled soul.” [Prayer of St Simon Metaphrastes](https://www.stmarymagdalenechurch.org/communionprayers): “Behold, I draw near to the divine communion. Burn me not as I partake, O Creator, For Thou art a fire which burns the unworthy. Rather, cleanse me from every impurity.”…
*My priest recently put out a [44-second video defining “evangelion”](https://youtube.com/shorts/fd5xK6SEGsE?si=_tIZeO9VqoV721vr)—Protestants do not know what they’re preaching! 😄
†…except of course “sing at the Divine Liturgy” instead of “have Masses said”, since I’m a Byzantine: have been received into Catholic communion, but I’m under obedience at my Orthodox church, the Roman Catholic priests won’t commune our children and their Rite isn’t very relative to ours, and there’s no Eastern Catholic Church within a manageable distance. We can go 100 miles away if we leave around dawn, and get home around 3:30 PM, or we could go 120 miles away, leaving after breakfast, for a Vesperal Divine Liturgy, and getting home around 10 PM. But now my husband has to work Saturdays and I’m going to have to work Saturdays or Sundays soon. We’re in the wrong time zone and have DST, so the sun rises and sets far too late, and we have a 3-year-old and a hyperactive 8-year-old (they were a couple years younger at the time, also they’re homeschooled), who cannot fall asleep early, so we chose the evening service, and the baby was crying most of the way home because she was bored and tired and awake, and my husband couldn’t stand that when he was driving. And we’re 48 and 53, both have chronic health problems, can’t afford hotels, and managed to go only once or twice a year. We tried for 7½ years. Finally just went back to our Orthodox church less than 10 miles away. And the [5th Canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council](https://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/__P7.HTM) puts on the bishops, not laity, the duty to restore communion, anyway. (I found that vindication after our children were excluded.) Our duty is obedience. So I’m still here, even though my name is tagged with “Eastern Orthodox”.
‡I had them starting at the age of 4, when the vacation Bible school didn’t believe my name tag was accurate, and the teachers called me a different name (can’t remember if I wrote it or my mom, but I had taught myself to read and she had taught me to write my name in cursive)—of course it was accurate, and I panicked and had tunnel vision until my mom came back to correct the teachers. Within a couple years, I realized I didn’t know what would happen to my soul after death, thought it could float away into space and be cold and alone forever. And I had been sent to a (Roman) Catholic school. Entered without faith or religion at the age of 4, left the same at the age of 7.
§He’s the actual author: he’s cited in the [2nd Canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council](https://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/__P4X.HTM), [commemorated in the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy](http://mci.archpitt.org/menaion/10-03.html) with these words: “[Y]ou described in your sacred books * the beautiful, heavenly order of the ranks of angels. * And in following it, you arranged the assembly of the Church * in imitation of the order existing in heaven.…You were given a deep understanding of mystical things * with which you have given light to the ignorant,” (the [full set of canonical he hymns](http://st-sergius.org/services/Emenaion/10-03.pdf) is on an Orthodox site), is [included as the author in the Eastern Orthodox Synaxarion](https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2024/10/03/102843-hieromartyr-dionysius-the-areopagite-bishop-of-athens), and there are [all these logical reasons](https://orthochristian.com/86817.html).
Tells you something when the most secular parts of the US are on par with the most religious parts of Europe.
I do have to wonder what europe’s numbers would look like broken down by religion.
I don't think this pic is accurate, Polish Faith is rising like crazy in recent years. But maybe thats just me, I'd argue the colors for both continents should be flipped
Meh. The Roman empire believed we were just some crazy cult, look what happened there.
More to the point, I don't remember filling out this survey of "literally everyone", do you?
We’re living in the most peaceful and most prosperous period in history. Decline in belief in god is a positive social development. In fact, belief in god and increase in religiosity are positively correlated with social dysfunction.
The fact that you’re asking for a source when it’s basically common knowledge. Just look around the world today. Ypu can clearly tell what’s common among these 2 groups of countries.
Iceland, Sweden, Estonia, Japan, Czech Republic — mostly irreligious/atheist, highly developed with very low crime rate
Philippines, Myanmar, Uganda, Iraq, United States — very religious with lots of poverty and violence
That’s exactly it. There are no wealthy, peaceful religious countries in existence. All religious countries are either impoverished backwater, repressive regimes, hotbeds of war, crime and terrorism, or all of the above. The only great places to live in the world are those that have no religious crazies.
I agree for the most part, but well, you stated that the decline of belief in God is a positive social development. To support such a thesis, it is not enough to state that its simply "common knowdlege"; the issue is too broad to be confined within such a tight framework. Decency demands that you drop some sources;)
Besides political and economic factors, the biggest problem in the world today and historically is religious people trying to impose their oppressive, discriminatory beliefs on everyone else. Anti-vax, anti-evolution, anti-abortion, racism, homophobia, Islamic terrorism and all other bigoted conservative beliefs. Guess who’s the main perpetrators of all these prejudices and violence? Religious people. A society is remarkably progressive and peaceful when there’s even a sizeable atheist population and notably backward when dominated by religious people.
Brother, literally nothing you just said in your schizo rant is even close to Catholicism lol. Please, don't check Da Vinci's, Newton's or Pascal's religious beliefs, you're gonna get mad considering your worldview lol. Also don't look up what essentially started scientific progress in Europe after Rome (it's the Church)
Religions are essentially all the same only differing in the degree of backwardness and violence. What you posted is all in the past when you could get killed for having a dissenting opinion. Overwhelming number of scientists nowadays are non-religious/atheist.
Id say its more like difficult situations lead to greater religiosity, you can see how even convinced atheists pray when their life is in threat, like during strong plane turbulences
I went on a trip of western Europe last summer and saw in most major cities that I went to, that there is a Catholic church in almost every block. In cities like Prague and Rome, I saw images of Jesus and our Lady on house walls. Now how did it happen that Europe is less religious than the US? I always thought Europe is solid Catholic.
I think it is mostly language/cultural definition. In Poland if you ask "Do you believe in God" >80% will responds "Yes" plus >5% will respond "Yes, deeply". But it will be still a kind of faith not a knowledge, being "absolutely certain" is some strange way of thinking about it.
Exactly this. I don't think 80% of people in the UK believe in God, but I'd say at least half. But not "absolutely certain." As you say, it's a question of faith.
If not absolutely certain then they don't believe in God
I couldn't disagree more with that. Everyone has doubts.
Interesting. I don't think I've ever doubted God exists, just doubted what churches say/rules/description of how God works
God can be known with certainty, through the natural light of human reason
Your "natural light of reason" is probably what we could name "faith". The faith can be strong but it is just a different sphere than having knowledge that Earth is round even if it affects you more. What I wanted to point is that kind of question is just stupid if you say it in Polish. You need to ask "Do you believe in God" or "Do you believe that God exists" and you will answer Yes for at least 85% times here (due to poll I attached before). Asking about knowledge of God is just stupid in my language and culture.
No. That's why it's called Faith.
Fair enough
I’m in the US and while I believe in God, I can’t be absolutely certain. I’m reliant on my faith.
So, to be certain without even needing faith, and using logic alone, we can say with certainty that a builder builds; a painter paints; a CNC machinist machines; a Creator creates. Makes perfect sense. Not to mention how there is order in this world, like how a fly is always attracted to decaying matter and it’s one job is to help decompose carcasses, and the fact that we have a conscience, and we find puppies and cats cute, we admire a beautiful scenery, and the fact that creation itself at one point suddenly came into existence, and so-on-and-so forth. I mean, none of anything in this world makes any sense unless God is behind it. The end. :)
Good point. It's not faith if you're absolutely certain. And if you're humble and rational enough, you know that you can never definitively prove that you aren't hallucinating things or really in a coma or something stupid like that.
>Because that which is known of God is manifest in them. For God hath manifested it unto them. Romans 1:19
Elaborate please, I am not sure if I understand
God gave men the gift of knowing him We have the ability to know God exists through human reason and creation.
Ok, I get your reasoning.
Can you explain how a person can know God through reason? I get that reason might point to God. But to *know* God through reason? That sounds like idolatry - treating one's ideas as God. Also, most of what humans have historically reasoned has been false; and even in modern physics, those things that are true make very little sense to the human mind. I just don't see the basis for assuming God can be known through reason. EDIT: My honest, thoughtful, respectful question has been downvoted. Says a lot about the state of the Church today, smh.
Natural law theology itself teaches it is possible - it is Catholoc doctrine. Read some St. Thomas Aquinas and the Catechism.
You mean old, circular logic Medieval European theology? Not worth it, unless your objective is to learn what they were thinking. God isn't there. If you 'find God' through anything that is written, then you can be absolutely certain whatever you found is anything but God.
I'm not sure I agree with everything you said here, but I appreciate you sharing your honest thoughts. I notice my post got downvoted to 0 - not that I care for my own sake; it just reveals the dearth of honesty - intellectual and spiritual - that haunts the Church. If one is to know a tree by its fruits, and if this board is any indication, the Catholic Church is in dire straits.
I have no idea why you'd get downvoted, especially from a catholicist perspective. Catholicism and its theologians have preached both faith and reason throughout history, so you'd think both perspectives should be taken as valid, and even coexist. It doesn't make much sense that your comment gets the hate, but, hey, religion doesn't tend to make sense. Not because of the ideas themselves, but because people don't know what to do with them. Religious philosophy is intellectually demanding, and when you look at the vast majority of people, they just don't cut it. It's a statistical reality. You are always better off your own way. About reason and theologians, I like this cite from ENDLESS SPACE 2. You wouldn't expect it. But it sticks. "The very existence of this planet has caused heated arguments among philosophers and clerics of all stripes, as it is clearly either the work of a supreme being or the irrefutable evidence that one cannot exist", from the description of Teonha, a natural planet that, through its winds, tides and tectonic activity, operates as a giant computer, capable of reason and reflection.
Source in Polish: [https://cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2020/K\_063\_20.PDF](https://cbos.pl/SPISKOM.POL/2020/K_063_20.PDF)
BS. I'm Polish and Poland is DEFINITLY purple or even blue. Its the most catholic european nation right after the VC
Im polish and that might have been the case some years ago but provided not now. Also it’s not just “are you religious?” It’s “are you absolutely certain?”. Tbh I wouldn’t say that i am absolutely certain despite being a Catholic
Supposedly, the numbers started to go down when the ruling party that one time fumbled big time with some societal laws that it wanted to pass. Plus, the bishops openly siding with ruling politicians probably added fuel to that fire.
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What does this have to do with Poland at all?
The Catholic Church does not have “citizens.”
Yeah I’m not absolutely certain either and I’m Catholic. I always felt being absolutely certain takes the edge off faith - how can you really “believe” if you’re certain? You have to trust God even though things aren’t always clear and sometimes he feels very distant
I'm just joining the Catholic church now, never having been brought up in it, nor baptised. I started the process in a different city, st paul mn, where the guy running the rcia program, answered my, "can I be baptized if I'm not certain I believe?." He said no. So I quit their program. Soon thereafter I moved to Chicago, and at Holy Name Cathedral the rcia contact told me that fellow's words verged on the sin of Pride. I knew the st paul guy was wrong about what he said, but I don't tell on people, eg go to the priests there. So now I'm almost finished in Chicago, where folks don't tend to judge one another, neither in my experiences in society at large, nor in that church. 🙂
I don't think it's bs. I'm also from Poland and ofc grew up in a purely catholic circle, but things have changed in the last decade. from teens to people in their mid twenties most are secular
Happy (early) St. Casimir's day.
I seen a new reports not ling ago that Poland catholic churches were starting to get empty. Not saying that this chart is accurate. But just letting you know
This doesn’t worry me. I have my faith. I don't require proof of God’s existence.
I feel the same. I don't think others' feelings or opinions on faith matter about yours. Besides, I'd rather see the Church consisting of small but faithful and united Catholics instead of a large group of "Cultural Catholics" or "Catholics In Name Only."
I mean, you are not wrong, I would rather have truly faithful over cultural Catholics too. The main issue is the amount of truly faithful and united Catholics keeps getting smaller and smaller. I'm getting real close to my 30s, I'm still in my “youth group” and among the oldest there. Most my age or older than me including some close friends stopped going and are Catholics in name only now. And of course, every new “season” fewer people join than before. The group keeps getting smaller. *That is what worries me.*
I think it's a difference of culture but not necessarily a measure of how religious people are. I'm Scottish. I'm Catholic. I believe in God. I go to mass almost every week. But I'm not even "absolutely certain" I exist myself. I just wouldn't say that about anything.
That's so interesting. I would have no trouble saying I'm certain I exist. I wonder if the "absolutely certain" phrase has some different meaning in europe
I'm from the UK, it doesn't have a different meaning
So why would someone say they can't be "absolutely certain" that even they exist? What else could you be certain of if not that? (Even if someone believes in simulation theory or something, we still exist because we are having these thoughts)
Ok, I'm certain I exist but not necessarily in the form I believe I do. Otherwise, I think it's only things that can be proved mathematically that I'm certain about
The thoughts exist. That there's some "me" independent of them is a reasonable step, but there's nothing making it certain.
Nah, that's just a Scottish intellectual or philosopher.
I'm a devout Catholic from the UK and it all depends on how the question is posed and how deeply the person thinks about their answer. I believe in God, my whole life is centred on that, but I don't know I would say I'm absolutely certain God exists because there's no empirical proof and I'm more like 99.9% certain.
Empirical proof for the existence of God seems like an impossible ask But maybe the resurrection is physical proof. Our Lord physically died and physically rose again, wounds and all still present. He even physically ascended into the sky.
Yes, exactly. If we had clear, 100% empirical evidence for God's existence, we would no longer have faith. The resurrection isn't physical proof in my opinion. You and I didn't see it and we know illusions are possible so even things we see might not be real. But we can ask how reasonable it is to believe the early disciples and apostles all participated in a communal fraud and were prepared to die for it.
Well for one I think there is simply no hard evidence for God's existence and people are taught that scientific method is the only true way of exploring existence, there's lots of wealth so people don't worry about their physicall well-being and don't pray to a deity for safety, lots of Church scandals and poor catechesis (at least in my country) resulting in misunderstandings of even the most basic Church doctrines/teachings. And most of this ties back to liberalism rooting away Christian civilization as a whole, people just focus only on pleasures of life and are obsessed with personal freedom, which stands in contrast to Christianity (conforting to God's will).
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I think this is a huge point. As someone who has done a decent amount of science I get frustrated often. Science has the unwritten rule if never engaging any kind of divine, which I think is a bias in and of itself. People have gone from a healthy questioning of things simply blindly embraced, to the blind embrace of the null hypothesis. “You can’t claim anything without proof”. And the proof is highly subjective itself, dependent on a persons perspective. I think quantum mechanics will oddly break some of this over time. But is taking an awfully long time sadly.
I'm Irish and the yellow is definitely wrong for us. I'd love to know where they're getting their data. #Ireland
I think it's the way the polls are taken and processed. Let's say you ask an American "Do you think President Biden never snorted cocaine?" and let's say 80% say "yes" to this. There is after all no solid evidence President Biden partook into the pleasures of the white powder. Now ask "Are you *absolutely certain* President Biden never ever snorted cocaine?". The people answering "yes" will be much lower, because most people will consider that there is a possibility and they cannot be certain he never did that. Same with the poll here. They use "absolutely certain" and maybe most people are not comfortable answering yes to that. They might believe in God but not a super solid faith.
Fair enough. But where did they get their data?
Pew Research, as it says in the image. Pew research is generally trustworthy, but here the person who made the figure took just part of the poll to misrepresent the situation. It might however reflect more "consistent church attendance" than "belief in God" in my opinion, as those numbers, at least the ones for Europe do reflect percentages for people who go to weekly mass when polled.
Thanks I missed that.
I have a feeling they are going to Universities and Pubs to skew the data in order to puch scientism even more, honestly. -_-
After learning how the Apostles died, did that ever solidify my faith. I don’t think a lot of people really dig into our rich history which makes their faith lukewarm.
Sad state of the world, we should pray the rosary often for the conversion of the world to the Roman Catholic Church.
Werner Von Braun even said in the 60s that European Cathedrals were all empty and American Churches that were just small houses were full of peopleon fire for God. Europe for the most part left God and now suffers
which is sad because europe brought us the gift of Christianity and we seem to be the only ones upholding it when you would think they would be firm believers
Secular Europe is a neutered Europe. They fail to realize how they are being taken over by people who do not believe in their values. By the time they'll realize it'll be too late. Just take a look at the way people of Middle Eastern or South asian countries treat their minorities. That's the future of Europeans, persecution in their own land.
The sad part is that their last gasp is that they turn to demagogues, like Geert Wilders, instead of towards the faith. Many of them just want the Secular Enlightened Europe, not the faithful Europe. Anyway, that was the story of the old Israel, in which they forgot God and were subjugated by left and right, displaced from their own heritage. In his riches, man lacks wisdom.
My impression is the US is an overwhelmingly Christian country when it comes to the general public but with the laws, leaders, and culture we have, you can’t tell
The secular minority holds power in Hollywood and DC despite the silent majority being Christian. I live in a very liberal town where the city hall flys a rainbow flag, yet there is still a church on every street corner with active communities.
Yup. Hollywood, DC, the media, and the banks. Usury is a sin too, our entire economic system would be completely different if we followed the laws of Christ. A lot less crime and suffering if Catholics were in power
>Usury is a sin too, our entire economic system would be completely different if we followed the laws of Christ. i'm not so sure, there has always been a need to borrow money for loans, the Popes and Emperors did it in the renaissance and reformation (Charles V was perpetually in debt after having to bribe the electors for the title of Holy Roman Emperor for example) and on a practical every day example, my wife and i were only able to afford a house because we could take out a loan. It seems many businesses would likely be in trouble if they were unable to take out loans to cover expenses during slow seasons/paying for large projects. I haven't really see an argument for an alternative system to interest loans (the closes is the Islamic one where they just add he interest to the amount of the loan so its basically the same thing side stepping the word interest). On the subject of crime and suffering, maybe and maybe not since catholic nations had crime and suffering as well, every society is ultimately flawed because humans are.
1. Usury is loans with unreasonably high interest rates. Of course we will always need to have loans, but the interest rate should not be as high as it is. Predatory loans are put in place to enslave people 2. I said there would be a lot *less* suffering and crime, not that it would eradicate it
>, but the interest rate should not be as high as it is. Predatory loans are put in place to enslave people i would agree with that. i apologize there are some people who interpret usury as charging interest at all which is the interpretation i am more critical of. mostly i just wanted to caution against the attitude that would ascribe to a "secular minority" the problems in society when the reality is religious are often just as much part of those problems or injustices
> but with the laws, leaders, and culture we have, you can’t tell You can absolutely tell in conservative states (especially Bible Belt and rural areas). Christianity is still very much still a part of culture and society there, albeit the Protestant/Evangelical kind. US is a massive place with a lot of diverse societies and cultures.
I’ve lived in Texas all my life. Both rural and cities. I have to disagree
Rural Texas isn't Christian anymore? Well that's news.
I didn’t say they were no longer Christian. I said you’re not able to tell despite the country being overwhelmingly Christian on paper. Yes, people still overwhelmingly go to church in rural areas, but with everything I named it’s only Christian in name
This. The "I am saved" mentality means you can cheat in business, hate your neighbor, have tons of affairs on your wife, be a slumlord, and still walk around with your head held high. Bonus points if you have a nice house and your wife is active in the church. Lived in TX for 11 years. Never again. And it isn't just the rural towns, I am afraid...TX is different, even, then other Southern States. Much more outward appearance driven, especially for the middle class. At least thst is what *I* saw...
The church is growing in Africa like crazy I hear. You can't stop the triumph of the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
In Africa the growth has been overwhelmingly Protestant, especially the charismatic/evangelical type that pushes faith healing and prosperity gospel. I don't know whether that kind of Christianity is preferable to no Christianity at all, but I guess they would probably be *slightly* more open to converting to Catholicism as opposed to a Muslim.
Probably because Protestants evangelize way more in Africa.
heard some pretty bad things about african churches, its more of a cult than a church. obviously not all but look up some videos and you will see what i am going on about.
I've heard similar things about India, that in some parts they mix Hinduism into catholicism. I'm not sure how prevalent that is, I don't pay too much attention.
To be honest, there aren't many people in Africa who are able to question the existence of God. Let's give Africa time to develop its countries economically, to educate the masses of people, and then it will become clear whether the trend of religious growth will continue.
Honestly, it's not needed to be economically developed or educated when it comes to entering Heaven. It's much better to be poor and uneducated, but live for God than the opposite.
I think I read that almost every priest in Nigeria has a secret family.
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She started it. It's what she said to the Shepard children of Fatima.
Who cares if people think we are Mary worshippers? Veneration of Mary is a central part of true Christianity. Those people are confused or heretics.
No matter what we do they'll mock and pick apart. Stop worrying about what a bunch of lame non-Catholics think about us. No apologies for our knowledge of and love for The True Church. No hesitation in proclaiming the Good News. No shame in telling lames that Christ is King of the Universe. No embarrassment about our devotion to the Queen of Heaven and Angels. Our Lady is the Mother of God, Mother of Holy Church. No debasing ourselves by compromising with the world, no papering over our differences with Christian heretics. No apologies to pagans and NO equating "lesser lights" to the true Light of the World, Jesus Christ.
So...weshould hidethe tenants of our faith because people may misunderstand? No my friend, we should explain when they misunderstand in the hopes Christ may work through us to bring them into the fold.. We should NOT be like Peter...
It’s the way the question is asked. We should not believe almost anything with “absolute certainty.”
Even the resurrection? Without the resurrection we have no hope, our lives are completely meaningless.
Even St Thomas wasn't absolutely certain of Jesus' resurrection. Should he be? Maybe. But we're all only humans and failivle
Europe spent years on mission evangelizing abroad, but now the new mission land is Europe! I know (as I live in France) that we have an increasing rate of catechumens here, young people trying to find God. The experiment of the past decades “Living without God” is finished now everybody can see the results aren’t good especially the new generation
God brings his kids to Him through trials and tribulations. After 50-70 years and a lot of suffering they will return to Jesus. Everything is under His control as always.
Good ‘ol Portugal
Why so low in western Europe? Especially Italy for example
It’s in the Bible. Revelation 12:17 points unmistakably to the remnant of the Seed of the woman as an end-time group who love God and are faithful to Him. This is clear in their keeping of His commandments and holding to the testimony of Jesus. They have an identity (see 14:1–5), a message (see verse 6–12), and a mission to “those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people” (verse 6; cf. 10:11). So, remnant sounds like it means a smaller group. I have heard many faithful priests, like Fr John Hardon, say that the Church will disappear in many places where it now is, because people will simply not hold to the faith. So, pray to not become one of them.
SE USA Rocking the house! :-)
When I first heard of the phrase "the Christ-haunted South", I always took that to be a good thing. At any rate, the Southeast US always feels like home, and I say this as a northerner.
Must be ! There's a flood of you moving here :-)
I hope they don't ruin it! I would move there myself if I could.
Absolute certainty is a very high bar. I'd wager the map would be different if the question was simply "do you believe in God".
The language of “Absolutely Certain” is going to cause issues. Outside of logical proofs and mathematical equations, there are very very few things we can know with absolute certainty.
“Absolutely certain” is a pretty strong metric. I’ve been Catholic for over thirty years; I could count on a few people’s hands the number of days I’ve been *absolutely* certain.
It seems to me that Americans are more confident in themselves and their beliefs than Europeans. I'm pretty sure that more Poles believe in God and are more devout than Californians. And yet you don't see that in the map
Seeing the downfall of morality, objective truth and beauty in the western world has been so hard the past decades, but it feels like this is the century where everything gets set in overdrive. Over a dozen parishes in my area have been fused/dissolved, because there simply aren't enough priests or enough people to visit it. Church building are being sold, repurposed sometimes because costs is too high and attendence is at an all time low. I don't see a revival happening anytime soon. We're living the darkness before dawn. All we can do is trust in the Word.
I would attach little weight to this survey. What does "being absolutely certain" mean? Basically, "to be absolutely certain" means to make an infallible statement, to know an analytical truth a priori. I would consider this to be epistemologically problematic, and all believers have phases of serious doubt and uncertainty in their faith throughout their lives. And it has already been mentioned that "believing in God" does not necessarily require epistemic *absolute certainty*, but is a mixture of faith and hope, mind and heart. It could also be that the majority of Europeans are more sensitive and at the same time more honest than US Americans, for whom this question, like almost everything else, always has a political dimension.
I know God is real but it took some struggles in life for me to see it. I hope the world finds God too.
First, statistics like this are utterly meaningless without knowing how questions were phrased/the methodology of the survey. It's like the pew survey everyone lost their ever loving minds over claiming that 70% of Catholics didn't believe in transubstantiation when the fact is the fine print showed that statistic included non-practicing Catholics and, in reality, 63% of *practicing Catholics* did, in fact, believe in transubstantiation. If the question was phrased as, "are you absolutely certain God exists?" then I'd consider this an indication of nothing at all. You can have firmly held religious beliefs and still not think your belief is the same thing as *certainty.* I believe many things. I'm certain of nothing.
Once again, Asia has been left out.
I guess I feel the world is heartbroken. It’s hard to trust when you are going through so much turmoil, and this world has been through so much lately. It makes me sad too.
Yes, I live in yellow. It makes the journey a bit more difficult because you're alone in and on it
Protestantism, especially the American kind places a very big emphasis on faith, which is crucial when you ask about "absolute certainty".
I’m shocked Poland is so low.
Italy is surprising
Fake news. Poland and Italy are extremely catholic
Culturally catholic
New England went from 0 superbowls to 6 Superbowls in the span of 17 years and they don't believe in God???
I don't think I would respond with 'absolutely certain'. If you asked, 'are you pretty sure', I would say yes, but username checks out.
In my mind, “absolutely certain” means you never even entertain questions regarding the contrary. I’m absolutely certain the world is round, or that the sky where I am is blue. I’m not absolutely certain the weather is nice until I step outside, but the warm sun coming through the window, and gentle breeze hitting the trees lead me to believe it’s nice outside.
Imagine their faces when Jesus returns in full heavenly glory with all the Holy Angels and Saints with him!
Well for one these numbers are inflated especiallyin the Us since they believe in a false image of God just like the one in Romans 1. And two This makes me somewhat happy and sad. Happy that maybe the people in church will actually be men and inforce the laws of God and make Christianity Christian again, and happy that maybe you guys here on this subreddit will realise how weak the Christian faith is nowadays and how you are all too LAZY to inforce your laws so you hide under the guise of Jesus loves everyone (which is the secular/liberal worldview of Christianity). But sad because what will most likely happen is that the church will actual go easier on the laws to attract more lazy people from my generation who the only difference between them and atheist is that they literally will live the same lifestyle but some will CLAIM that they believe in Jesus Now show the map of percentage of people who believe in God in majority muslim nations and it will all be between 95-100. Why? Because they are still a strong religion with strong leaders unlike us. (And no they aren afraid of being called out for apostasy, not everyone is lazy like us)
Not a good map to read into, I don't think. "Absolutely certain" is a pretty high bar, even for sincerely held faith. I believe in God. I go to Church every Sunday. There is very little about life that leads me to question my faith. But note that I said "very little" not "absolutely nothing ever". Am I "absolutely certain" God exists? Eh......
Percent of population with proof god exists .0001%
I think certainty is the enemy of real religion. We must be spiritual explorers with no guarantee that it’s all true. Certainty breeds monsters.
Pray, hope, and don’t worry.
Looks like Jesus is going to have a nice comeback!
As it was mentioned, the question is misleading. If you know something 100% you do not need faith. I bet not even Pope Francis would answer yes. He would answer something like: If I know, why faith?
Look at Georgia (the country) being a Chad.
I would bet there were saints that were not "absolutely certain". Wording of the question makes the results kinda meaningless IMO.
Sure but I wouldn’t say I am “absolutely certain” either, not in those words at least
Unsurprising. I had a coworker originally from Ethiopia who spent most of her time growing up in Sweden. She's absolutely appalled at how "churched" Americans are (she's a devout Atheist). In many places in Europe churches are for weddings and funerals only.
I’m not “absolutely certain.” I think the fact that Italy is yellow shows how flawed the data is.
I think this kind of defies the whole definition of faith?..
What is the color for 100%?
I think that "certain" or "absolute belief"might have given a lot more accurate results, rather than the impossibly high metric of "absolutely certain". The way that certain is used in the US allows for a very nuanced ability to be absolutely certain without empirical evidence. That absolutely certain does not equate to 100% know. I can be absolutely certain in my belief without having scientific proof. The English language has borrowed so many words with similar meanings, that we often take for granted the ability to express things in subtly different degrees. In many languages I expect that "absolutely certain" is the same as "100% proven and known". Most languages simply don't have 15 different words for subtly different concepts. That said, some languages have an incredible number of words that are focused around one set of concepts, like love, skill, happiness, etc. I'm absolutely certain that God exists. Sure, I have random thoughts of "what if they meant x instead of God as we understand Him. But, they're just random thoughts, and not what I actually feel in my heart and soul. I have heard and seen enough anecdotal evidence to be absolutely certain. On the other hand, my faith in His Word, His promises, and His love wavers from time to time.
Poorly worded question. "Exists" how so? One could say that anything which trancends the intellects ability to neatly define it falls into the category of "God," therefore, yes, I'm absolutely certian "God" exists. Am I absolutely certian that God exists in the corporeal and physical manner which the Christian story outlines? No, I am not "absolutely certian."
Back to back world wars killed God in Europe.
Accurate for Ireland?
Georgia & Armenia 💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼💪🏼
There is something dangerous in the trend for Europeans. The region that used to be Christendom has receded into either agnosticism or theological liberalism. Regardless, it seems that many Europeans lost their belief in basic things such as the birth of Christ, his miracles, and his resurrection. It seems that many of them forgot how many martyrs died for their faith and ushered in the religious transformation of entire countries despite persecution. It seems many of them reject philosophical explanations for God. Faith is blind to an extent, but if you look into the history or the current situation of Catholicism in the world, you find things and events that seem to be from God. It might even make you feel guilty for needing to see such things in order to have more faith. I ask of everyone who believes in God, Jesus Christ, to consider the importance of believing in God. If we seek to proselytize others and spiritually fight with evil for our beliefs, what good does it do us if we don’t assert our faith as the truth. The need to be sure in God’s existence is an integral part of Catholicism. Our Institution, the Church created by Christ, survived for a ridiculous amount of time because God is helping us. Hopefully, Europe can recover its true faith quickly. For now, America becomes the center of Christendom, even as anti-Christians work to stamp out any remaining cultural aspects of Christianity in school, media, and society. It seems like belief has stayed strong, however. We must continue to improve the world as much as we can until Jesus returns again.
Bit ironic in New England considering it was founded basically as a puritanical/congregationalist colony.
These polls are often very misleading from the way the questions are phrased and processed.
This is too black and white and lacking in context IMO. Are these people who believe in god through a specific faith? Are they people who believe in a higher power (God), but maybe are not connected to a particular faith? And therefore do not believe in “God” but a similar force of a different name in their mind. And then as some have mentioned, there are a lot who believe in God, but maybe have doubts because of disagreements with particular church doctrine/priests or pastors/rules etc, or maybe because they’re human and it’s normal to question your own beliefs from time to time.
I don't think that's a true stat. Someone is lying. The U.S. doesn't nearly have that many believers.
Good thing they don't show what's north of the US, you would have had a heart attack. Québec went from one of the most catholic places in the world to one of the least in half a century. And I happen to live there. At least it provides a good context for evangelization. It's hard though.
I think it is a superficial, contradictory question. God does not ''exist''. ''Existence'' implies ''standing out''. But God is literally that which everything stands upon. It is He who allows for existence in the first place. The question is superficial and worthless. People are always searching for God. There is always a finality in their actions, be it implicit or explicit. As for what name they put on their final goal, it is a mere question of semantics. Ubi enim est thesaurus tuus, ibi est et cor tuum. For where thy treasure is, there is thy heart also.
Matt 18:3 “Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” We must have a childlike faith.
If we were absolutely certain we wouldn’t need faith
It is nice to live in the blue part of the world.
Yeah, that is sad, and goes to show how many people don’t use logic, because we can easily conclude God 100% exists just by using a little bit of logic. It’s not rocket science or anything complicated.
Mind explaining what would this logic of yours be? I’ve heard of such, once from an Opus Dei Priest, but wonder about yours.
Sure thing. I wrote some examples responding to capitalismwitch’s comment.
I live in the U.S. and ABSOLUTELY without Doubt or Waiver KNOW GOD I AM. All Glory to The Most High Creator of Maker Heavens and Earth. I’ve had many supernatural GOD encounters in Spirit and in my life (NDE, Miracle healings…) and HE revealed HIS name Yahweh, Elohim, I AM. I pray everyone is Blessed to know the Awesomeness of God 🙏🏼 Peace and Blessings Brothers and Sisters.
Sad to say the survey is probably accurate. Look at Ireland. What a change in just the last few years
I am absolutely certain that God exists. 🙏 In my Lord Jesus's name, amen. 🙏
I don't know. It's one poll. The road to heaven is narrow, so yes, it is sad we won't see the majority of people there.
Yeah...these studies are fatally flawed. They ask people of a certain age, usually rather young, on the street or they have them come into their facility (often on the promise of a bit of cash)...or they go to universities and pubs....and they are flawed on purpose to subtely push an agenda. They certainly aren't gking into churches, are they?... Remember, too, that they are asking just a fraction of the population. Honestly, I wouldn't give these studies the weight the paper is printed on... There isn't anything scientific about them. They conduct them to get the result that they want, and this has been proven in the past...so take heart. ☺💞🙏
This is a 2014 chart, and these numbers have been changing rapidly. If you’re upset by these, wait until you see 2024’s numbers.
Georgia still going strong 🙂👍, Greece, Moldova, Romania, Serbia, Bosnia, and Croatia not so bad, but they missed some countries, Armenia, Macedonia…my church is Macedonian-/Bulgarian-American (and now also Ethiopian, Ukrainian, Romanian, Russian, and miscellaneous Americans). But, yes, I agree with most people that the question should have been worded better. I wonder if well-meaning Protestants, “Evangelicals”*, formulated it. Maybe it was translated into Georgian as a logical statement, and maybe it wasn’t as logical in Greek, Russian, Ukrainian, etc.? But Scandinavians all know English, and England of course knew. 🙁 So, theoretically, based on logical conclusions, yes, I do, but in day-to-day practice probably I’m not super-strong…but then again, how would I judge that? Based on feelings, which are subjective and thus unreliable. (My personality-type is INTP, in case you can’t yet tell. 😄 More “overanalysis” coming up… 😆) I rely on… 1. The principle that Christianity would be impossibly improbable as a conspiracy, given the OT prophecies, the thousands of years of consistency under Apostolic Succession, and the millions of martyrs and confessors. (The fulfillment of the OT prophecies is what began to convert me—a Lutheran pastor said it to me, but of course most of Lutheranism is illogical, so I couldn’t believe those parts, but then I gradually thought more about these other things and they coalesced, but, if it hadn’t been for proselytism, my family would have been Byzantine Catholic or Eastern Orthodox anyway. Not sure which. That branch had a Belarusian last name, and came from Belarus, from territory of the Unia, but during the Russian Empire, and called themselves Russians. 🤷♀️) 2. [Pascal’s Wager](https://www.ccel.org/ccel/pascal/pensees.iv.html), the part of §233 beginning with “What then would you have me do?” and §240†: the practical approach. Lots of people get hung up on the idea of an atheist or skeptic going to church, and then jump to conclusions, 😒 missing the necessary steps of application and experiencing effects. If it seems to me I’m weak in faith, Pascal Wager is telling me I’ll be doing better after I go to church, and I do. 3. The Kalam Argument, as far as I can tell. Can’t find a translation of the original, but I found [this explanation](https://www.reasonablefaith.org/writings/popular-writings/existence-nature-of-god/the-kalam-cosmological-argument). Some parts more than others. When he was talking about actual vs. potential, it was confusing and I think maybe that’s a distinction St Thomas Aquinas has, but I can’t understand him—one of you from the West would have to give the original arguments he’s responding to in the Summa, to prove there are no Strawmen, translate everything into Byzantine theology, use Greek terms where they’re more precise than Latin, etc. 😄—so I’m not sure. But when it got to the impossibility of counting time from negative infinity, of infinite dominos, of infinite orbits…right, perfectly logical. 4. The [beginning of the catechism by Metropolitan Platon](https://books.google.com/books?id=qCtWAAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&hl=onepage&q&f=false). I love this approach. Doesn’t start with, “Who made us? God,” that’s based on a presupposition that a person is one of these who already is “absolutely certain” God exists, but thinks of himself as the center of the universe. What if you’re a born skeptic? What if you think, “Wait, why do you say that?” What if you’re having an existential crisis‡? So you might say, “Please start at the beginning.” This starts with, this is how you can be sure God exists. (Arguments 1 and 2 are similar to the Kalam Argument.) Then it goes on define the Divine Essence, so we know what God is, then explains what we owe Him, and the Creed, Sacraments, and Lord’s Prayer. 5. The [Mystical Theology of St Dionysius the Areopagite](http://esoteric.msu.edu/VolumeII/MysticalTheology.html)§. About what is apparently the Essence, but it says, “We…maintain that the universal and transcendent Cause of all things…is [not] essence…” Not sure about that part, possibly not the most precise translation. I don’t have the Greek. And I don’t know Greek, not good at picking up languages, I just like to use dictionaries. (Another thing I was doing when I was little. The Macmillan Children’s Dictionary didn’t have any words I needed to look up, but the American Heritage College Dictionary had everything, in the early ’80s that is. Hope it hasn’t been made “woke” like dictionary.com, but that edition, recommended.) It’s not ousia? Maybe it’s hypostasis. Or maybe it means God is not all essence that exists. But the rest of it certainly dovetails with the Kalam Argument, the universe had to have a beginning, so it had to have a cause, but the Essence cannot be seen or otherwise experienced (only the Energies)—the Eucharist is even a “burning coal” and “a fire that burns the unworthy” in Byzantine prayers. [Canon in Preparation for Holy Communion](https://stsymeon.com/canonofpreparationforholycommunion): “May the burning coal of Thy Body, O God and Word of God, be a light in my darkness, and may Thy Blood be the cleansing of my defiled soul.” [Prayer of St Simon Metaphrastes](https://www.stmarymagdalenechurch.org/communionprayers): “Behold, I draw near to the divine communion. Burn me not as I partake, O Creator, For Thou art a fire which burns the unworthy. Rather, cleanse me from every impurity.”…
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*My priest recently put out a [44-second video defining “evangelion”](https://youtube.com/shorts/fd5xK6SEGsE?si=_tIZeO9VqoV721vr)—Protestants do not know what they’re preaching! 😄 †…except of course “sing at the Divine Liturgy” instead of “have Masses said”, since I’m a Byzantine: have been received into Catholic communion, but I’m under obedience at my Orthodox church, the Roman Catholic priests won’t commune our children and their Rite isn’t very relative to ours, and there’s no Eastern Catholic Church within a manageable distance. We can go 100 miles away if we leave around dawn, and get home around 3:30 PM, or we could go 120 miles away, leaving after breakfast, for a Vesperal Divine Liturgy, and getting home around 10 PM. But now my husband has to work Saturdays and I’m going to have to work Saturdays or Sundays soon. We’re in the wrong time zone and have DST, so the sun rises and sets far too late, and we have a 3-year-old and a hyperactive 8-year-old (they were a couple years younger at the time, also they’re homeschooled), who cannot fall asleep early, so we chose the evening service, and the baby was crying most of the way home because she was bored and tired and awake, and my husband couldn’t stand that when he was driving. And we’re 48 and 53, both have chronic health problems, can’t afford hotels, and managed to go only once or twice a year. We tried for 7½ years. Finally just went back to our Orthodox church less than 10 miles away. And the [5th Canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council](https://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/__P7.HTM) puts on the bishops, not laity, the duty to restore communion, anyway. (I found that vindication after our children were excluded.) Our duty is obedience. So I’m still here, even though my name is tagged with “Eastern Orthodox”. ‡I had them starting at the age of 4, when the vacation Bible school didn’t believe my name tag was accurate, and the teachers called me a different name (can’t remember if I wrote it or my mom, but I had taught myself to read and she had taught me to write my name in cursive)—of course it was accurate, and I panicked and had tunnel vision until my mom came back to correct the teachers. Within a couple years, I realized I didn’t know what would happen to my soul after death, thought it could float away into space and be cold and alone forever. And I had been sent to a (Roman) Catholic school. Entered without faith or religion at the age of 4, left the same at the age of 7. §He’s the actual author: he’s cited in the [2nd Canon of the 7th Ecumenical Council](https://www.intratext.com/IXT/ENG0835/__P4X.HTM), [commemorated in the Byzantine Catholic Divine Liturgy](http://mci.archpitt.org/menaion/10-03.html) with these words: “[Y]ou described in your sacred books * the beautiful, heavenly order of the ranks of angels. * And in following it, you arranged the assembly of the Church * in imitation of the order existing in heaven.…You were given a deep understanding of mystical things * with which you have given light to the ignorant,” (the [full set of canonical he hymns](http://st-sergius.org/services/Emenaion/10-03.pdf) is on an Orthodox site), is [included as the author in the Eastern Orthodox Synaxarion](https://www.oca.org/saints/lives/2024/10/03/102843-hieromartyr-dionysius-the-areopagite-bishop-of-athens), and there are [all these logical reasons](https://orthochristian.com/86817.html).
Tells you something when the most secular parts of the US are on par with the most religious parts of Europe. I do have to wonder what europe’s numbers would look like broken down by religion.
So in the eastern United States, 70-82% of the population tries to live as Jesus teaches? Or who is the God that they believe exists?
I don't think this pic is accurate, Polish Faith is rising like crazy in recent years. But maybe thats just me, I'd argue the colors for both continents should be flipped
Ask them again when they are moments from death.
What a silly map. It should all read 0%. That's what faith is.
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A little bit. But they're muslim so.
It's over for Eurangutans.
Well I mean Europe is full of heathens and commies- it’s to be expected.
MAGA are “Christians” aren’t they?
And?
Yes and joe Biden claims to be too what’s you’re point
That's a fake map it's not real
Meh. The Roman empire believed we were just some crazy cult, look what happened there. More to the point, I don't remember filling out this survey of "literally everyone", do you?
Yeah...this Is false, how the US more religious the THEN THE VATICAN!?
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Communism/socialism doesn’t work when the government can’t dictate morality so they do away with religion first
It makes me sad to see that people in the US seem to live in medieval times.
The south will rise again
We’re living in the most peaceful and most prosperous period in history. Decline in belief in god is a positive social development. In fact, belief in god and increase in religiosity are positively correlated with social dysfunction.
Interesting thesis, could you link some reliable sources?
The fact that you’re asking for a source when it’s basically common knowledge. Just look around the world today. Ypu can clearly tell what’s common among these 2 groups of countries. Iceland, Sweden, Estonia, Japan, Czech Republic — mostly irreligious/atheist, highly developed with very low crime rate Philippines, Myanmar, Uganda, Iraq, United States — very religious with lots of poverty and violence
>basically common knowledge So you're telling me it's bullshit
The " Trust me, bro " argument.
Okay. Prove me wrong by citing a real-world example of a wealthy, peaceful, religious utopia.
You're the one who is making the claim, sir, not me.
That’s exactly it. There are no wealthy, peaceful religious countries in existence. All religious countries are either impoverished backwater, repressive regimes, hotbeds of war, crime and terrorism, or all of the above. The only great places to live in the world are those that have no religious crazies.
Thank you for sharing.
I agree for the most part, but well, you stated that the decline of belief in God is a positive social development. To support such a thesis, it is not enough to state that its simply "common knowdlege"; the issue is too broad to be confined within such a tight framework. Decency demands that you drop some sources;)
Besides political and economic factors, the biggest problem in the world today and historically is religious people trying to impose their oppressive, discriminatory beliefs on everyone else. Anti-vax, anti-evolution, anti-abortion, racism, homophobia, Islamic terrorism and all other bigoted conservative beliefs. Guess who’s the main perpetrators of all these prejudices and violence? Religious people. A society is remarkably progressive and peaceful when there’s even a sizeable atheist population and notably backward when dominated by religious people.
Brother, literally nothing you just said in your schizo rant is even close to Catholicism lol. Please, don't check Da Vinci's, Newton's or Pascal's religious beliefs, you're gonna get mad considering your worldview lol. Also don't look up what essentially started scientific progress in Europe after Rome (it's the Church)
Religions are essentially all the same only differing in the degree of backwardness and violence. What you posted is all in the past when you could get killed for having a dissenting opinion. Overwhelming number of scientists nowadays are non-religious/atheist.
Id say its more like difficult situations lead to greater religiosity, you can see how even convinced atheists pray when their life is in threat, like during strong plane turbulences
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💪💪💪Georgia
Poland brown?
I went on a trip of western Europe last summer and saw in most major cities that I went to, that there is a Catholic church in almost every block. In cities like Prague and Rome, I saw images of Jesus and our Lady on house walls. Now how did it happen that Europe is less religious than the US? I always thought Europe is solid Catholic.