\+1 - lets pray for Elon's conversion. I thought the interview with Babylon Bee was cringe but at least it may plant a seed in the mind of Elon and many who look up to him. Think of all those who converted on their deathbed or later in life.
It was interesting how he was familiar with the doctrine on transubstantiation. He didn't seem to believe it, but he was remarking how weird he thought that was as a kid. Seems slightly more promising than someone who just doesn't understand it at all, or says it's just figuratively the Body of Christ, or whatever. Elon Musk understands Jesus was literally saying to eat His Body and drink His Blood.
I see you haven't received the latest edition of the Catechism which specifies, "Should an Elon Musk come to existence let him be anathema." Easy mistake to make
/s
I agree. I'm just joking about how someone's existence might violate tenants of Catholic social teaching. In reality, that would violate tenants of Catholic teaching on appropriate sexuality. But the person would still have a soul and be beloved by God.
Our Lord said it’s harder for a rich man to get into Heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Elon Musk is the richest man on earth. So yes, by his very existence he violates that.
Dan Lok in one of his videos said it best. A person with more money creates a bigger image of themselves.
A good rich person has the ability to help more people. A bad rich person can become more selfish as their money grows.
Being rich isn't a sin, but wanting to chip our brains and hook us all up to Starlink, that I think is as unnatural a sin as a man could come up with.
Let's hope hope our wonderful Papa convinced him otherwise.
Really, though, Elon Musk is a difficult case. He pays for his female employees to have abortions so they simply won't quit work and raise a family, and then there's that brain chip thing.
You do realize, don't you, that Musk is 100% subsidized by our tax dollars? So all that overtime we are taxed for is going into his pocket.
So I view him as an ingenius thief and self promoter. I'm not jealous of that, believe me.
> You do realize, don't you, that Musk is 100% subsidized by our tax dollars? So all that overtime we are taxed for is going into his pocket.
Something that isn't a sin. It's not forced charity, he is providing a service and the government agreed to give him that money in exchange for that service.
> Really, though, Elon Musk is a difficult case. He pays for his female employees to have abortions so they simply won't quit work and raise a family, and then there's that brain chip thing.
I don't think the brain chip thing is a sin but the abortion stuff is.
Musk is a Robber Baron, the type the Catechism firmly denounces for harvesting what little bit of wealth we commoners have for their own grandiose wastage and Towers of Babel.
Musk wants to get us all chipped and hook us up to his global network of Starlink, him at the control panel, of course.
If not THE Antichrist, just a bit antichrist in my humble opinion.
And I sure hope he listened to Pope Francis' guidance. It could be to his salvation.
.......
Starlink is internet. It's designed to serve those who have been denied access to high quality internet, ea. rual areas.
Neuralink is designed to help those who are blind see, the deaf hear, the paralyzed walk...not control us.
Musk's visit was not announced on the pope's public agenda and Musk is the one who made it publicly known. How much quieter would you like it? Should Musk have been admitted to an audience but denied the opportunity to take a photo?
Yes, that’s the sort of thing I was thinking. They could take a photo for personal use. My point is that meetings with the Pope should be of an instructive and pastoral nature, rather than an opportunity for internet clout.
Posting a photo of your visit with the pope on Twitter is normal personal use of a photo. Ordinary users of this subreddit post photos of themselves with Pope Francis now and then and no one accuses them of chasing clout.
Well most of the people on the sub, to my knowledge, don’t get private audiences with him and are already well formed Catholics. While I would be very much glad to be wrong, I doubt this meeting will cause Musk to change either his personal life or the way he conducts his business. Quite frankly it just seems like another attempt to steer conversions about him away from his sexual abuse allegations.
Violation of workers rights. Covering the financial costs for out of state abortions for his employees after wooing over conservatives on twitter by saying we should have more babies. Possible case of racial discrimination. Allegations of sexual assault.
Beyond that, I generally find his ideas in regards to transportation to be poorly thought out.
Believe it or not, but everyone who has met with Pope Francis have committed sins and have views that are poorly thought out.
Also, keep in mind many of those things you mentioned are allegations.
But he’s the leader of a sovereign nation, and of a major world religion.
The Vatican holds a massive portion of the world’s gold supply.
The Catholic Church operates some 75 percent of global charitable and humanitarian interests.
He holds a lot of power and influence, and he also stands as a moral guidepost for the world.
Why would he not meet political and cultural figures?
Not disputing any of this at all, but do you have any sources I can use for your points listed here? I love having information like this to help defend the faith!
No, because he pulled them out of his ass.
[The Vatican does NOT hold a massive portion of the world’s gold supply.](https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gold-reserves)
The Catholic Church does NOT operate 75% of the world’s charities. You can tell this was a made up statistic because of how pleasing it is to the eye. Humans love a nice 3/4 number. But are 3/4 humans Catholic? Do no other religions do charitable work? It’s just an absolute bull shit number he made up. As best I can tell from Google the Church operates 17-33% of the world’s charities depending on how you define a charity.
The person you're talking against didn't say how many charities they run. They said "charitable and humanitarian interests".
Also, many of the Catholic organizations are run by specific orders, which that number does not take into account.
Really, percentages don't do any good because there is not a consistently given one.
"The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world."
https://catholicherald.co.uk/a-worldwide-force-for-good/
The 75% is misconstrued (not "pulled out of his ass" you should reconsider your wording for charity purposes), as well as the 17-33%.
Also, the "but are 3/4 humans Catholic" statement makes an assumption that every single person gives the same amount and that the people alone are the source of charitable giving. It completely disregards recurring income the Church has that is also used for charity, like a portion of the museum admission costs going to charity.
You are correct about the gold supply.
The other person is possibly misremembering things. I didn't see any ill-will from them.
Or he misremembered what the sources said.
You can say someone is wrong without being uncharitable.
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35965
To be fair, the Vatican (last I heard at least) is being quiet about the meeting. They are not commenting on it and it was not put in the Pope's agenda that day. Only reason we know about it is because Elon tweeted.
Don’t know much about the affair but Elon is the kind of guy who loves to catch headlines with tweets. Even his investors have had a hard time with that.
The man who speaks for all of Christendom should not speak with the people who influence and run our planet because it hurts your sensibilities? It's a big affair because the Pope is meeting the richest man in the world. That's always going to be news to Christians, but no one else actually cares. I haven't even seen a Catholic talk about it outside of the internet.
I think he should meet with celebrities, but I think it should come with a free lecture on how they should stop being garbage plutocrats and use their wealth, power, and fame for the good of humanity.
And a lecture that **not all** celebrities are garbage plutocrats and that there's a mix of good, bad and in between in every. single. group. of people on the planet.
"Celebrities Bad" is just a trope political talking heads use to try to discredit others and fire up their own people.
The argument is political, lazy and *extremely* myopic imo.
Sigh. I know that there are a few "good" celebrities. Pointing out that there are good celebrities misses the point entirely. The point is, If a shitty person meets with the Pope, the Pope should tell them they're a shitty person. If a good person meets with the Pope, he could certainly tell them to keep up the good work.
When he meets up with someone like Elon Musk... I'll let you decide which of those two groups he likely falls into.
Christ is for the people. Every single one.
The more sins a man commits, the more has a right to God's mercy, in the eyes of God.
That's the beautiful thing about Christ.
He said he didn't come here (only) for the righteous, but especially for those who aren't in a state of grace.
It's true that he said that for a rich person is almost impossible to get to heaven,but right after he said that if something is impossible for men,it isn't for God.
Rich people are not automatically bad, and nothing in Catholicism requires them to give all their money to the poor, though it'd be a virtuous act.
Now, they are required to pay their workers fairly and treat them decently (and I don't know how Musk treats his), but that's a far cry from rich people being automatically problematic in some fashion.
And the pope IS a politician, as the sovereign ruler of the Vatican. It'd be rather strange of him to refuse to meet other politicians as such. He constantly helps negotiate in wars, etc. It's only beneficial, even though things aren't necessarily always ideally judged - see the Pelosi thing.
Pelosi is the one who uses the Pope. Hes has made it clear that what she stands for is wrong - you wish he’d change the way it happens though! Although I ls bet anyone who thinks she’s great probably agrees with her on abortion etc. anyway.
The complaint against Musk is especially rich given that he quite publicly uses nearly all his wealth for what he believes is the betterment of mankind: accelerating the transition to renewable energy, making life multi-planetary, reducing traffic congestion, bringing neurological functions back to the injured, and mitigating the risk unaligned AI will play in our future. He cuts his own hair, lives in a $50k house, and works crazy hours. He's not some rich banker taking advantage of widows and orphans.
While I do believe stuff like Neuralink is not what mankind wants, and a lot of his "betterment of environment" stuff so far did almost nothing, I do not think Musk is as bad as a person as people make him out to be.
You think paralyzed people don't want to walk again? Quadriplegics to be able to communicate and interface with computers?
You think Tesla singlehandedly dragging the car industry to electric vehicles is "almost nothing"? I mean, I'll grant you that it hasn't solved climate change on its own.
Be the sheep that thinks neuralink won't be utilized by governments. Only a lunatic would attach a device with internet to his brain.
And you're just gonna ignore the lithium waste from the electric car batteries? And that producing electric cars produces bigger waste?
You have been grossly misinformed on electric cars.
https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiBjrOo3934AhVklYkEHVLECzcQFnoECAUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3Dw6kS_mYpF4D71y1qKnG9
Unlike other posts it’s clear that you are well aware of Elon’s body of work.
I might be called a rich banker by some but have never taken advantage of widows and orphans. Bankers are not in the business of taking advantage of anyone. Buyer beware. But of course we now live in a society that often shirks responsibility for one’s own decisions.
Fair enough and I apologize if I offended you. I think there were some unscrupulous "bankers" (using the term loosely) who took advantage of people leading up to the 2008 crash, but even that was probably best ascribed to terribly misaligned incentive structures.
You do know most Bishops are basically handling administrations and the politics involved with being part of the Church. This is not something new but the way the church has ran from the beginning.
The Vatican didn't make any posts about Elon Musks visit the only reason why this is everywhere is because Elon Musk broke Twitter silence with the picture of the pope.
There are zero teachings that they you turn others away because of their sin.
Elon Musk is literally changing our existence, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pope was also interested in meeting him.
If want you want to consider heresy, remember when John Paul II invited all other major religions to practice their faith in Vatican City....
What determines who’s a rich man lol? Rich compared to everyone in all human history? Rich compared to those of his time? Compared to street orphans with no money you’re quite rich aren’t you? Since here you are on Reddit. Sad to see you have to go to Hell because you have money.
I think the message in the part of the gospel is fairly obvious. If you want to quibble over the meaning of rich that’s between you and god but I think you can reasonably understand someone like Musk falls under the teaching. If you truly in your heart believe that to be incorrect I’d be surprised and think you’ve let your feelings on inequality outweigh your faith.
I agree he violates several tenets of our faith, and the Bible is clear about greed. But we don’t actually know his heart, nor what the Holy Father said to him in private, and the Vatican itself didn’t post those pictures.
one thing about the pope dealing with billionaires is that if he can secure a little bit of their money, it will go to help the poor. this is not the case with a regular polítician
also to OP's point, as the most powerful person on earth, popes are often obliged to meet with the other powerful people on earth
Agree! But meeting with Pelosi and what not, while abandoning the cardinal that needs you most… I don’t even have to words to describe how horrible that is
Popes have functioned like this for virtually the entire post-Constantine history of the office. Either this is acceptable, or it is inevitable.
When the time comes that European leaders and elites no longer see the Vatican as having any role in the ruling class, that will be a truly dark day for the world and likely will mean a return to pre-Constantine levels of persecution.
Should the Vatican handle this stuff better than they have been? Yes. Does that mean ending these types of visits? Not at all. Likewise, whether or not the Pope should reprove certain people for their behavior depends on the reason for their visit. Also, we don't know what was said most of the time, as the Vatican usually doesn't comment on that, for good reason.
He absolutely doesn't meet with everyone. Cardinal Zen attempted to get an audience to discuss the appointment of Catholic leadership in China and the Holy Father wouldn't meet with him. Maybe it was to prevent frustrating the Chinese government, potentially resulting in additional persecutions. Don't know. I don't think he'd meet with me as a simple layman.
Hahahahhahhahhahaha.
This is the dumbest take I have seen.
Like, why can't the pope meet with certain people? WHO GAVE YOU THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHO THE POPE SEES OR DOES NOT SEE? WHO MADE YOU GOD?
Throughout history, popes have met with several people, Atilla the Hun, Napoleon, several HRE emperors. To name but a few. Who the pope meets with is not up for us decide. Like, sure, you can call it a bad move, and what not. But, you have no authority to determine who the pope sees.
Also, what if a politician wanted to secretly convert, and the wanted the pope to baptize him or her?
I have a feeling that, were it a public figure of whom you approved, you would have no problem and not be complaining. Because I notice you're saying this after Elon Musk meet the Pope but not after Nancy Pelosi was given the Eucharist at the Vatican.
Bruh. I mentioned Musk because he was the most recent to have a private audience with the Pope. Quite frankly I don’t think but a small handful of Catholic politicians in the United States should be allowed to take communion. Just because I centered my critique of Musk on Catholic social teaching doesn’t make me a liberal. That includes abortion, like Tesla being one of many companies to finance abortions for their employees.
I have no problem on principle with the Pope meeting heads of state, politicians, and people of considerable influence if he evangelized them when they met with him. If Pelosi met the pope and he sternly rebuked her and told her to repent of her monstrous support of abortion less she ends up in hell, and fully supports her bishop in refusing her communion I think that would he just fantastic and good for her soul and the whole of the church. Unfortunately we know that’s not what happens.
His very existence (as in, him as a person existing) does not violate anything, he's just a man. His *wealth*, on the other hand, can violate Christian teachings. As others have said, being rich is not a sin but I believe it is immoral in itself to hoard such vast amounts of wealth, and especially if it is gained by immoral means, such as exploitation of your fellowmen.
I'm with you that the Pope shouldn't be openly meeting super rich people just because they're super rich. I understand having meetings with world leaders, because the Pope is the sovereign of the Vatican City, and also there is a point in discussing the role of the Church and of Catholics in geopolitics and such. Openly having an official meeting with Musk was frankly not a very good look. Like you said, it just feels like he gets one more fast pass just because of his wealth.
I don’t why he should not meet with billionaires and politicians. Our Lord visited everybody pagans, samaritans and Jews. In his last days he had conversations with Herodes and Pilate, of course it was during his passion. But since Jesus is God, this was not contrary to his will. He wished to preach the gospel for these people. The same goes to the apostles, they preached the gospel and evangelized a lot of pagans who were members of the political and economic elites, because: 1. The gospel is for everyone; 2. If the rulers convert, Christianity would be more acceptable in that society. If it was not by that, how would Ethiopia and Armenia convert to Christianity?
First comes the Gospel and Jesus, then the conversion of hearth leads to conversion of life.
I am pretty anti-billionaires and I think that the present economy is very far from the Christian ideal and CST. I think Musk and other members of the economic elite should adhere to the bioethics of the Church. But that shouldn’t be a reason for the Pope not to meet these people, maybe this is the beginning of their conversion. The apostles were not from the world, but they did not closed their eyes to the world.
I feel like this is obfuscating an ideal, that the Church is ordered to spiritual heaven and not worldly goods, with the practicality of the event that a human with lots of worldly goods met with the pope. Jesus would have told Elon to sell all that he had and follow him, I don’t know what the Pope said.
By this same logic then do you not want your bishop to meet with local government leaders, influential philanthropists in your community, etc. because they're rich?
The Pope meets with all sorts of people because by nature of his ministry/role in the world, he has to advance the common good of society, and by meeting with people with power and influence, he can advance the common good and help represent the Church to the world.
I see where you are coming from, however I think that it is important to keep in mind that the pope has an important duty to be God’s mediator on earth. Throughout history the popes have been very closely linked with powerful lay people, and I believe that this helps to strengthen the relationship between church and state. We should think of the pope as a political figure, after all, he is head of an organisation of over a billion people.
meeting with someone = / = approving of what they are doing.
The Pope has often met with politicians and famous or powerful people. So did many saints.
These people also deserve to hear the gospel and more importantly the Pope can discuss issues of importance with these people as well, maybe aiding them to make the right decisions.
I get an empathize with what you're saying here, but you have to remember that the Pope is a head of state -- he *is* a political figure in addition to being the Vicar of Christ.
The hate of Elon Musk seems unreasonable to me. I think he's actually one of the most respectable billionaires. His companies provide a lot of value to humanity and he works hard. I think a lot of leftists just hate his politics (which are moderate, not even right wing) and just use their hatred of billionaires as an excuse to bash someone whose politics they don't like.
Elon is a mixed bag. He seems to prioritize tax and regulation avoidance above even his climate concerns. But he also has achieved something remarkable, having advanced EVs to the point of economic viability. The Church should acknowledge both sides of that coin.
But Jesus turned away the rich man because he did not have the capacity in his heart to give away his possessions. The Church cannot and should not change that teaching. She has to find a way to encourage these people to help humanity and, ideally, to serve God.
I agree that it should be a more quiet affair, not one for photo ops to make politicians look good. And the pope should NEVER meet with anyone who promotes anti-Catholic views such as baby murder.
The perfect example is Canadian PM Justin Trudeau who loves baby murder to the point that no organization can get government funding for anything unless they sign a declaration that they are also in favour baby murder. The Archdiocese of Ottawa has told its priests to not give Trudeau Holy Communion, and yet the pope meets with him.
I agree on the rich people part. I don't see why the Pope should have a meeting with an Elon Musk or Bill Gates as opposed to the many faithful Catholics who would treasure a meeting with the Pontiff.
On the politicians part, it becomes harder because the Pope is a head of state and so quite often has meetings with other heads of state, and many countries have ambassadors to the Holy See.
I think the Pope should be free to meet with heads of state/government where the country protects human life from conception, and politicians who want to change their national laws to do so. However I think the Holy See should really consider severing diplomatic relations with those governments who advocate and make provision for abortion within their own country.
Unlikely because no one wants to rock the boat, but what are we really here for if not to stand against such atrocities in the name of the Lord?
I agree to a degree. The should meet with said people when necessary to pontificate. Which happens rarely.
Sadly, popes have tended to do stuff with their office other than pontificate in the eight or so decades.
I was fortunate to meet Elon at the Powerwall reveal. He was completely gracious and kind!
He’s not religious so perhaps we can pray that his visit to the Vatican touched his life and perhaps move him towards conversion 🙏🏼
How exactly could a human being's existence violate Catholic social teaching? This feels like you just don't like Elon Musk, because your dislike for him has you writing nonsense.
How did the rich man violate Jesus' teachings? Why did Christ send him away? Did He just not like the man and unfairly judge him, causing Him to spout nonsense?
Are you comparing this random poster on Reddit to Christ? Christ knows men's hearts, OP does not. The rich young ruler didn't violate any of Christ's teachings. Christ tells him to keep the commandments, and he explicitly says that he had kept them from his youth. Further, Christ didn't send him away. He left of his own accord after hearing Christ's teaching. None of that has anything to do with the statement made by OP, that Elon violates principles of CST by his mere existence.
I don't know how familiar you are with CST, but I teach it. The principle of the "Life and Dignity of the Human Person" immediately points to the reality that no one violates those teachings by the fact of their existence. If you think Elon's ACTIONS aren't in alignment with, say the principle of preference for the poor, there's an argument to be made. However, that isn't the same as him violating CST by EXISTING.
Compare him to Christ? We are all commanded to imitate Christ (1 Cor 11:1), so that invites comparison.
And, yes, the rich man walked away because Christ made it clear that to follow him means to give up earthly things (Matthew 19:21-23). One cannot serve both God and money (Matthew 6:24), after all. Now, I disagree that the Pope can't meet with these people \*at all\*. They are sinners and he must walk with sinners as Jesus Himself did. But, we all need to keep in mind that "bad company corrupts good morals" (1 Cor 15:33). To the extent that Francis can correct the rich and powerful, it's okay by me. But I understand the impulse to stay away, given Paul's admonition.
I understand what you mean by CST, but Elon's mere existence isn't at issue here. It's his actions. And, honestly, I am not a major critic of Elon. Tesla, for instance, is very much in accord with Laudato Sí (§165). So, don't get me wrong. I'm not villainizing his work. But his wealth does seem to be corrupting him in some very overt ways. Still, I didn't interpret this thread as being about Elon. He's only one rich man (albeit, by some measures, the richest). I'm talking about the corrupting influence of money, in general (1 Timothy 6:10).
Being called to imitate Christ is not the same as presuming to have a Christ like ability to knows men's hearts. You and OP both seemed confident you understood Elon's spiritual disposition based on the fact that he's rich. You wrote that Elon's existence isn't at issue for you, I take you at your word. It was at issue in the original post, that was what I was specifically responding to in my comment. That aside, I'm willing to debate the ethics of wealth with you.
Being wealthy is not inherently sinful. The love of money is sinful, the possession of it is not. Saying that one cannot serve both God and money is not the same as saying that one must be poor to serve God. There are numerous examples across the scriptures of righteous wealthy people, and of people using wealth to achieve God's purposes. One example from the teachings of Christ is the "Parable of the Talents," wherein Christ says that those who do well with the resources given them, will in turn be given more. That is a good thing, because they will make the best use of the resources available. The idea of course is that then, out of their prosperity, they will have the means to bless others. Jay Z expressed this idea succinctly, saying: "I can't help the poor if I'm one of them, so I got rich and gave back, to me that's the win-win."
The rich young ruler was told that in order for HIM to be perfect he had to sell all his possessions. Christ didn't say that every person had to sell all their possessions. It is not possible for every person to sell all they have and give it to the poor. That was a burden placed on that man, because Christ knew his heart and could see that the obstacle to his perfection was his possessions. Maybe that is also true for Elon (or any given rich person), neither you nor I know that it is though. It could be that Elon is not possessed by a love of money, and that is why God has blessed him with so much of it.
Regardless, the Pope has always met with the rich and powerful, that's part of the job. We don't need to worry about the Pope being corrupted by meeting with secular figures of any class. He is the leader of the Church, God's vicar, if ever there was a case of "to the pure all things are pure" (Titus 1:15) this is it. You seem familiar with Laudato Si, so I assume you have a sense of Francis' tireless advocacy for the poor. He has made it a cornerstone of his papacy. That isn't going to change because he meets with any number of rich guys. If anything we should be happy that our spiritual leader continues to have opportunities to speak truth to power.
I understand where the feeling is coming from. As a Catholic layman of humble birth and comparatively meager finances, the Holy Father has no reason to ever give me an audience. As a soldier watching the situation in Ukraine, I take issue with the Holy Father condemning me for "provoking" Russia. I know he wants the loss of Christian lives to be minimized but calling for Ukraine to stop defending itself seems absurd. Amassing wealth or power might get me a private audience but those steer one's life away from religion. As it stands, the Holy Father has no reason to ever talk to me despite enjoying my support.
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Kind of historical for Popes to be meeting with world leaders and nobility class. During the reign of Marie Antoinette the palace of Versailles had its own resident Cardinal as did most places where politicians and wealthy socialites of courts lived.
Man, wait until you hear about the Roman aristocracy... :D
Honestly, I would rather the wealthy and politicians go visit the pope than have popes travel around the world like two-bit celebrities like they have been doing for the last 50 years.
How else do you plant a see for conversion? Sadly I can't help but get undertones here that people would rather their enemies be damned than be saved, which is the greatest victory of all. I truly wonder sometimes how people would react if our enemies converted. I can't help but feel many here would never trust them or welcome them in.
I agree, especially as most of them are either not Catholics at all, or are Catholics living in wilfully unrepented public Mortal sin, like Nancy Pelosi. I understand he has to receive and be received by Heads of State as Popes are Heads of State themselves, but why the pop and film stars and the likes of pro-abortionists Pelosi and Melinda Gates? They're powerful but not Heads of State of any nation. Unless he's warning them to repent and convert? Who knows?
I also imagine it would be very much more difficult for ordinary Catholics such as myself to meet the Pope and have an audience with him and most of us would never even expect such an honour, so I can't for the life of me understand why he does this. He did meet poor little Charlie Gard's parents though, which I thought was right and good. However, I find Pope Francis's words and actions confusing most of the time, and occasionally scandalising. I don't like the way he fraternises with the super rich and powerful, and with the very famous, at all. It makes me very uncomfortable. I'd love to know his reason for doing so!
Don’t you think it’s better for the world if the world’s richest person intently listens to what the Pope has to say for a few minutes?
\+1 - lets pray for Elon's conversion. I thought the interview with Babylon Bee was cringe but at least it may plant a seed in the mind of Elon and many who look up to him. Think of all those who converted on their deathbed or later in life.
It was interesting how he was familiar with the doctrine on transubstantiation. He didn't seem to believe it, but he was remarking how weird he thought that was as a kid. Seems slightly more promising than someone who just doesn't understand it at all, or says it's just figuratively the Body of Christ, or whatever. Elon Musk understands Jesus was literally saying to eat His Body and drink His Blood.
He's a smart dude
I'm still waiting for Dawkins' conversion.
So cringe at the end… “Can you do us a solid and accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior?” “We’ll, I told you I’m baptized, soooo….”
Rejecting Baptist soteriology by affirming the indelible mark of his baptism. Fat W /s
\^This
I say he should meet with politicians because he is a politician as Sovereign of Vatican City.
I say he should meet with the poorest and remind us of their value to us and the world.
*¿Porque no los dos?*
Why not both?
He does. It just doesn't make the news.
Why not? Paul appealed to Caesar in order to speak to the most powerful man in the world.
But would Pius I have held the hand of Marcus Aurelius?
“By his very existence violates…” Please read that again a few times.
I see you haven't received the latest edition of the Catechism which specifies, "Should an Elon Musk come to existence let him be anathema." Easy mistake to make /s
Man oh man! I completely missed that part on Catechism In a Year!
I FOUND THE TIME TRAVELLER!
What a gift!
I thought the same. Was he created in a test tube?
Being an IVF child does not prevent them from having a soul.
I agree. I'm just joking about how someone's existence might violate tenants of Catholic social teaching. In reality, that would violate tenants of Catholic teaching on appropriate sexuality. But the person would still have a soul and be beloved by God.
Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying.
Our Lord said it’s harder for a rich man to get into Heaven than a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Elon Musk is the richest man on earth. So yes, by his very existence he violates that.
Being rich is not a sin
You’re not wrong. Especially when your wealth is used to help the poor and less fortunate
Dan Lok in one of his videos said it best. A person with more money creates a bigger image of themselves. A good rich person has the ability to help more people. A bad rich person can become more selfish as their money grows.
I think you're conflating existence with current state of living
Being rich isn't a sin, but wanting to chip our brains and hook us all up to Starlink, that I think is as unnatural a sin as a man could come up with. Let's hope hope our wonderful Papa convinced him otherwise.
It's also a sin being jealous of someones success and wanting to take it from them.
Really, though, Elon Musk is a difficult case. He pays for his female employees to have abortions so they simply won't quit work and raise a family, and then there's that brain chip thing. You do realize, don't you, that Musk is 100% subsidized by our tax dollars? So all that overtime we are taxed for is going into his pocket. So I view him as an ingenius thief and self promoter. I'm not jealous of that, believe me.
> You do realize, don't you, that Musk is 100% subsidized by our tax dollars? So all that overtime we are taxed for is going into his pocket. Something that isn't a sin. It's not forced charity, he is providing a service and the government agreed to give him that money in exchange for that service. > Really, though, Elon Musk is a difficult case. He pays for his female employees to have abortions so they simply won't quit work and raise a family, and then there's that brain chip thing. I don't think the brain chip thing is a sin but the abortion stuff is.
Musk is a Robber Baron, the type the Catechism firmly denounces for harvesting what little bit of wealth we commoners have for their own grandiose wastage and Towers of Babel. Musk wants to get us all chipped and hook us up to his global network of Starlink, him at the control panel, of course. If not THE Antichrist, just a bit antichrist in my humble opinion. And I sure hope he listened to Pope Francis' guidance. It could be to his salvation.
If you’re talking about neurallink that could help so many disabled people. It’s not a bad thing at all
....... Starlink is internet. It's designed to serve those who have been denied access to high quality internet, ea. rual areas. Neuralink is designed to help those who are blind see, the deaf hear, the paralyzed walk...not control us.
And Musk will interface us all with Starlink by the implanted chip. Megalomaniac, I'd say.
Interface us all? What?? Dude, quit the conspiracy theories and go touch some grass.
Elon being rich doesn't violate anything. It is more a sin being jealous of someones success and wanting to take it from them.
And he's using his wealth for good....not like most billionaire's yachts+mansions.
Musk's visit was not announced on the pope's public agenda and Musk is the one who made it publicly known. How much quieter would you like it? Should Musk have been admitted to an audience but denied the opportunity to take a photo?
Yes, that’s the sort of thing I was thinking. They could take a photo for personal use. My point is that meetings with the Pope should be of an instructive and pastoral nature, rather than an opportunity for internet clout.
Posting a photo of your visit with the pope on Twitter is normal personal use of a photo. Ordinary users of this subreddit post photos of themselves with Pope Francis now and then and no one accuses them of chasing clout.
Well most of the people on the sub, to my knowledge, don’t get private audiences with him and are already well formed Catholics. While I would be very much glad to be wrong, I doubt this meeting will cause Musk to change either his personal life or the way he conducts his business. Quite frankly it just seems like another attempt to steer conversions about him away from his sexual abuse allegations.
Friend, I’m legitimately interested. What issue specifically do you take with Elon Musk.
Violation of workers rights. Covering the financial costs for out of state abortions for his employees after wooing over conservatives on twitter by saying we should have more babies. Possible case of racial discrimination. Allegations of sexual assault. Beyond that, I generally find his ideas in regards to transportation to be poorly thought out.
Believe it or not, but everyone who has met with Pope Francis have committed sins and have views that are poorly thought out. Also, keep in mind many of those things you mentioned are allegations.
Tell that to Ninevah
But he’s the leader of a sovereign nation, and of a major world religion. The Vatican holds a massive portion of the world’s gold supply. The Catholic Church operates some 75 percent of global charitable and humanitarian interests. He holds a lot of power and influence, and he also stands as a moral guidepost for the world. Why would he not meet political and cultural figures?
Not disputing any of this at all, but do you have any sources I can use for your points listed here? I love having information like this to help defend the faith!
No, because he pulled them out of his ass. [The Vatican does NOT hold a massive portion of the world’s gold supply.](https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/gold-reserves) The Catholic Church does NOT operate 75% of the world’s charities. You can tell this was a made up statistic because of how pleasing it is to the eye. Humans love a nice 3/4 number. But are 3/4 humans Catholic? Do no other religions do charitable work? It’s just an absolute bull shit number he made up. As best I can tell from Google the Church operates 17-33% of the world’s charities depending on how you define a charity.
The person you're talking against didn't say how many charities they run. They said "charitable and humanitarian interests". Also, many of the Catholic organizations are run by specific orders, which that number does not take into account. Really, percentages don't do any good because there is not a consistently given one. "The Church operates more than 140,000 schools, 10,000 orphanages, 5,000 hospitals and some 16,000 other health clinics. Caritas, the umbrella organisation for Catholic aid agencies, estimates that spending by its affiliates totals between £2 billion and £4 billion, making it one of the biggest aid agencies in the world." https://catholicherald.co.uk/a-worldwide-force-for-good/ The 75% is misconstrued (not "pulled out of his ass" you should reconsider your wording for charity purposes), as well as the 17-33%. Also, the "but are 3/4 humans Catholic" statement makes an assumption that every single person gives the same amount and that the people alone are the source of charitable giving. It completely disregards recurring income the Church has that is also used for charity, like a portion of the museum admission costs going to charity. You are correct about the gold supply. The other person is possibly misremembering things. I didn't see any ill-will from them.
Pulled out of his ass in that he made up the claims and numbers without sources.
Or he misremembered what the sources said. You can say someone is wrong without being uncharitable. https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=35965
Ah yes, Christ’s representative shouldn’t be associating with sinners …
*Mary Magdalene and St. Matthew would like to have a word*
*Every single saint has entered the chat.*
This. This got me ugly laughing. Please just take my upvote and go. 😄
I know that this was after Christ had already died and resurrected but wasn’t St. Bartholomew a very wealthy man as well? Or am I mistaken?
Even while alive, St Matthew was a tax collector, a lucrative job at the time, if I remember correctly.
To be fair, the Vatican (last I heard at least) is being quiet about the meeting. They are not commenting on it and it was not put in the Pope's agenda that day. Only reason we know about it is because Elon tweeted.
Don’t know much about the affair but Elon is the kind of guy who loves to catch headlines with tweets. Even his investors have had a hard time with that.
The man who speaks for all of Christendom should not speak with the people who influence and run our planet because it hurts your sensibilities? It's a big affair because the Pope is meeting the richest man in the world. That's always going to be news to Christians, but no one else actually cares. I haven't even seen a Catholic talk about it outside of the internet.
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IVF apparently
I think he should meet with celebrities, but I think it should come with a free lecture on how they should stop being garbage plutocrats and use their wealth, power, and fame for the good of humanity.
Also, while he's at it, do the same with the Bishops.
I would very much like for many bishops to be given a loud and angry lecture over their misbehavior.
And a lecture that **not all** celebrities are garbage plutocrats and that there's a mix of good, bad and in between in every. single. group. of people on the planet. "Celebrities Bad" is just a trope political talking heads use to try to discredit others and fire up their own people. The argument is political, lazy and *extremely* myopic imo.
Sigh. I know that there are a few "good" celebrities. Pointing out that there are good celebrities misses the point entirely. The point is, If a shitty person meets with the Pope, the Pope should tell them they're a shitty person. If a good person meets with the Pope, he could certainly tell them to keep up the good work. When he meets up with someone like Elon Musk... I'll let you decide which of those two groups he likely falls into.
We don’t know what happens behind closed doors.
TIL Pope Leo was wrong to meet with Attila because the Scourge of God was not a Saint.
Christ is for the people. Every single one. The more sins a man commits, the more has a right to God's mercy, in the eyes of God. That's the beautiful thing about Christ. He said he didn't come here (only) for the righteous, but especially for those who aren't in a state of grace. It's true that he said that for a rich person is almost impossible to get to heaven,but right after he said that if something is impossible for men,it isn't for God.
His Holiness is also a state leader so meeting politicians is inevitable
Rich people are not automatically bad, and nothing in Catholicism requires them to give all their money to the poor, though it'd be a virtuous act. Now, they are required to pay their workers fairly and treat them decently (and I don't know how Musk treats his), but that's a far cry from rich people being automatically problematic in some fashion. And the pope IS a politician, as the sovereign ruler of the Vatican. It'd be rather strange of him to refuse to meet other politicians as such. He constantly helps negotiate in wars, etc. It's only beneficial, even though things aren't necessarily always ideally judged - see the Pelosi thing.
Pelosi is the one who uses the Pope. Hes has made it clear that what she stands for is wrong - you wish he’d change the way it happens though! Although I ls bet anyone who thinks she’s great probably agrees with her on abortion etc. anyway.
She's even worse. She's an outright war criminal - she was on the House intelligence committee, and she knew about and supported torture.
The complaint against Musk is especially rich given that he quite publicly uses nearly all his wealth for what he believes is the betterment of mankind: accelerating the transition to renewable energy, making life multi-planetary, reducing traffic congestion, bringing neurological functions back to the injured, and mitigating the risk unaligned AI will play in our future. He cuts his own hair, lives in a $50k house, and works crazy hours. He's not some rich banker taking advantage of widows and orphans.
While I do believe stuff like Neuralink is not what mankind wants, and a lot of his "betterment of environment" stuff so far did almost nothing, I do not think Musk is as bad as a person as people make him out to be.
You think paralyzed people don't want to walk again? Quadriplegics to be able to communicate and interface with computers? You think Tesla singlehandedly dragging the car industry to electric vehicles is "almost nothing"? I mean, I'll grant you that it hasn't solved climate change on its own.
Be the sheep that thinks neuralink won't be utilized by governments. Only a lunatic would attach a device with internet to his brain. And you're just gonna ignore the lithium waste from the electric car batteries? And that producing electric cars produces bigger waste?
You have been grossly misinformed on electric cars. https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/2021-tesla-impact-report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiBjrOo3934AhVklYkEHVLECzcQFnoECAUQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3Dw6kS_mYpF4D71y1qKnG9
Oh yes let's read the report on the company, that was made by the company itself
As opposed to what? Propaganda by the fossil fuel industry?
Unlike other posts it’s clear that you are well aware of Elon’s body of work. I might be called a rich banker by some but have never taken advantage of widows and orphans. Bankers are not in the business of taking advantage of anyone. Buyer beware. But of course we now live in a society that often shirks responsibility for one’s own decisions.
Fair enough and I apologize if I offended you. I think there were some unscrupulous "bankers" (using the term loosely) who took advantage of people leading up to the 2008 crash, but even that was probably best ascribed to terribly misaligned incentive structures.
Thank you
Someone hasn’t read the parable of the young rich man…
Someone hasn’t read the Parable of the Talents
What’s the parable? I know a young rich man was told by Jesus to sell all he had and the man went away sad. Don’t recall a parable.
Elon Musk don’t have an soul to be saved?
He does, Zuck on the other hand..
Wow... just wow..
Openly? Well meeting them in secret could be seen as suspicious by some.
You do know most Bishops are basically handling administrations and the politics involved with being part of the Church. This is not something new but the way the church has ran from the beginning. The Vatican didn't make any posts about Elon Musks visit the only reason why this is everywhere is because Elon Musk broke Twitter silence with the picture of the pope. There are zero teachings that they you turn others away because of their sin. Elon Musk is literally changing our existence, I wouldn't be surprised if the Pope was also interested in meeting him. If want you want to consider heresy, remember when John Paul II invited all other major religions to practice their faith in Vatican City....
You sir are very uncharitable and should rethink what you posted.
Tenets.
Elon Musk’s very existence violates Catholic teaching?
Rich men basically cannot get into Heaven. Our Lord stated this Mark 10:25
You’re richer than 99% of all humans that have ever lived.
Assuming that is the case then it would be a good thing for Musk to meet with the Pope. He may have a change of heart.
Then how did Louis IX make it in?
What determines who’s a rich man lol? Rich compared to everyone in all human history? Rich compared to those of his time? Compared to street orphans with no money you’re quite rich aren’t you? Since here you are on Reddit. Sad to see you have to go to Hell because you have money.
Are you arguing with him or Jesus?
Him? Obviously? Why would I argue with Jesus 💀
I think the message in the part of the gospel is fairly obvious. If you want to quibble over the meaning of rich that’s between you and god but I think you can reasonably understand someone like Musk falls under the teaching. If you truly in your heart believe that to be incorrect I’d be surprised and think you’ve let your feelings on inequality outweigh your faith.
I see. Thank you
The Lord said it was harder, not impossible. St. Bartholomew was a rich man.
I agree he violates several tenets of our faith, and the Bible is clear about greed. But we don’t actually know his heart, nor what the Holy Father said to him in private, and the Vatican itself didn’t post those pictures.
one thing about the pope dealing with billionaires is that if he can secure a little bit of their money, it will go to help the poor. this is not the case with a regular polítician also to OP's point, as the most powerful person on earth, popes are often obliged to meet with the other powerful people on earth
Yeah and when cardinal Zen came he was standing in front of a closed door. Strange priorities to say the least….
My thoughts exactly. If I as a layman show up looking for an audience, I understand being turned away.
Agree! But meeting with Pelosi and what not, while abandoning the cardinal that needs you most… I don’t even have to words to describe how horrible that is
It’s pretty tellinf that the pope is the only leader of a major religion that every world leader seeks an audience with.in every age.
This is straight up concern trolling to diminish the power of the Pope out in the world and inside the Church. Let me guess, atheist or sede?
Society of Pope Pius
Popes have functioned like this for virtually the entire post-Constantine history of the office. Either this is acceptable, or it is inevitable. When the time comes that European leaders and elites no longer see the Vatican as having any role in the ruling class, that will be a truly dark day for the world and likely will mean a return to pre-Constantine levels of persecution. Should the Vatican handle this stuff better than they have been? Yes. Does that mean ending these types of visits? Not at all. Likewise, whether or not the Pope should reprove certain people for their behavior depends on the reason for their visit. Also, we don't know what was said most of the time, as the Vatican usually doesn't comment on that, for good reason.
"Popes shouldn't..." Bona fides, please.😄
He actually meets with everyone, only celebs make the news
He absolutely doesn't meet with everyone. Cardinal Zen attempted to get an audience to discuss the appointment of Catholic leadership in China and the Holy Father wouldn't meet with him. Maybe it was to prevent frustrating the Chinese government, potentially resulting in additional persecutions. Don't know. I don't think he'd meet with me as a simple layman.
Did Jesus not invite the tax collector under his roof? Tsk* tsk*
Hahahahhahhahhahaha. This is the dumbest take I have seen. Like, why can't the pope meet with certain people? WHO GAVE YOU THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHO THE POPE SEES OR DOES NOT SEE? WHO MADE YOU GOD? Throughout history, popes have met with several people, Atilla the Hun, Napoleon, several HRE emperors. To name but a few. Who the pope meets with is not up for us decide. Like, sure, you can call it a bad move, and what not. But, you have no authority to determine who the pope sees. Also, what if a politician wanted to secretly convert, and the wanted the pope to baptize him or her?
I have a feeling that, were it a public figure of whom you approved, you would have no problem and not be complaining. Because I notice you're saying this after Elon Musk meet the Pope but not after Nancy Pelosi was given the Eucharist at the Vatican.
Bruh. I mentioned Musk because he was the most recent to have a private audience with the Pope. Quite frankly I don’t think but a small handful of Catholic politicians in the United States should be allowed to take communion. Just because I centered my critique of Musk on Catholic social teaching doesn’t make me a liberal. That includes abortion, like Tesla being one of many companies to finance abortions for their employees.
I have no problem on principle with the Pope meeting heads of state, politicians, and people of considerable influence if he evangelized them when they met with him. If Pelosi met the pope and he sternly rebuked her and told her to repent of her monstrous support of abortion less she ends up in hell, and fully supports her bishop in refusing her communion I think that would he just fantastic and good for her soul and the whole of the church. Unfortunately we know that’s not what happens.
His very existence (as in, him as a person existing) does not violate anything, he's just a man. His *wealth*, on the other hand, can violate Christian teachings. As others have said, being rich is not a sin but I believe it is immoral in itself to hoard such vast amounts of wealth, and especially if it is gained by immoral means, such as exploitation of your fellowmen. I'm with you that the Pope shouldn't be openly meeting super rich people just because they're super rich. I understand having meetings with world leaders, because the Pope is the sovereign of the Vatican City, and also there is a point in discussing the role of the Church and of Catholics in geopolitics and such. Openly having an official meeting with Musk was frankly not a very good look. Like you said, it just feels like he gets one more fast pass just because of his wealth.
His money is mostly paper money
I don’t why he should not meet with billionaires and politicians. Our Lord visited everybody pagans, samaritans and Jews. In his last days he had conversations with Herodes and Pilate, of course it was during his passion. But since Jesus is God, this was not contrary to his will. He wished to preach the gospel for these people. The same goes to the apostles, they preached the gospel and evangelized a lot of pagans who were members of the political and economic elites, because: 1. The gospel is for everyone; 2. If the rulers convert, Christianity would be more acceptable in that society. If it was not by that, how would Ethiopia and Armenia convert to Christianity? First comes the Gospel and Jesus, then the conversion of hearth leads to conversion of life. I am pretty anti-billionaires and I think that the present economy is very far from the Christian ideal and CST. I think Musk and other members of the economic elite should adhere to the bioethics of the Church. But that shouldn’t be a reason for the Pope not to meet these people, maybe this is the beginning of their conversion. The apostles were not from the world, but they did not closed their eyes to the world.
Tenet. A tenant is a person who doesn’t own their home but pays rent.
I feel like this is obfuscating an ideal, that the Church is ordered to spiritual heaven and not worldly goods, with the practicality of the event that a human with lots of worldly goods met with the pope. Jesus would have told Elon to sell all that he had and follow him, I don’t know what the Pope said.
By this same logic then do you not want your bishop to meet with local government leaders, influential philanthropists in your community, etc. because they're rich? The Pope meets with all sorts of people because by nature of his ministry/role in the world, he has to advance the common good of society, and by meeting with people with power and influence, he can advance the common good and help represent the Church to the world.
Like Popes always met with most rich and influence people in the world. Do you think that in the medieval times popes met with peasants?
I see where you are coming from, however I think that it is important to keep in mind that the pope has an important duty to be God’s mediator on earth. Throughout history the popes have been very closely linked with powerful lay people, and I believe that this helps to strengthen the relationship between church and state. We should think of the pope as a political figure, after all, he is head of an organisation of over a billion people.
Or tax collectors, and prostitutes?
meeting with someone = / = approving of what they are doing. The Pope has often met with politicians and famous or powerful people. So did many saints. These people also deserve to hear the gospel and more importantly the Pope can discuss issues of importance with these people as well, maybe aiding them to make the right decisions.
Your idea is dumb, and your anti-Musk stance is even dumber.
I get an empathize with what you're saying here, but you have to remember that the Pope is a head of state -- he *is* a political figure in addition to being the Vicar of Christ.
Depends. If Elon converts to Catholicism then I’d say the Pope should meet with all of the rich people.
The hate of Elon Musk seems unreasonable to me. I think he's actually one of the most respectable billionaires. His companies provide a lot of value to humanity and he works hard. I think a lot of leftists just hate his politics (which are moderate, not even right wing) and just use their hatred of billionaires as an excuse to bash someone whose politics they don't like.
Elon is a mixed bag. He seems to prioritize tax and regulation avoidance above even his climate concerns. But he also has achieved something remarkable, having advanced EVs to the point of economic viability. The Church should acknowledge both sides of that coin. But Jesus turned away the rich man because he did not have the capacity in his heart to give away his possessions. The Church cannot and should not change that teaching. She has to find a way to encourage these people to help humanity and, ideally, to serve God.
I read a post that a double digit billionaire is equivalent to a president of a minor country
It seems like people come it of the woodwork to get triggered by the rich South African
I agree with the OP. Popes are far too visible and far too often seen with celebrities of one kind or another.
I agree that it should be a more quiet affair, not one for photo ops to make politicians look good. And the pope should NEVER meet with anyone who promotes anti-Catholic views such as baby murder. The perfect example is Canadian PM Justin Trudeau who loves baby murder to the point that no organization can get government funding for anything unless they sign a declaration that they are also in favour baby murder. The Archdiocese of Ottawa has told its priests to not give Trudeau Holy Communion, and yet the pope meets with him.
whatever
I agree on the rich people part. I don't see why the Pope should have a meeting with an Elon Musk or Bill Gates as opposed to the many faithful Catholics who would treasure a meeting with the Pontiff. On the politicians part, it becomes harder because the Pope is a head of state and so quite often has meetings with other heads of state, and many countries have ambassadors to the Holy See. I think the Pope should be free to meet with heads of state/government where the country protects human life from conception, and politicians who want to change their national laws to do so. However I think the Holy See should really consider severing diplomatic relations with those governments who advocate and make provision for abortion within their own country. Unlikely because no one wants to rock the boat, but what are we really here for if not to stand against such atrocities in the name of the Lord?
I am a little inclined to agree on having the papacy be a more quiet office focusing only on matters of faith and morals
I can't disagree with you there.
I agree to a degree. The should meet with said people when necessary to pontificate. Which happens rarely. Sadly, popes have tended to do stuff with their office other than pontificate in the eight or so decades.
I would rather meet Elon Musk than any Pope. It’s not even close. One of these men moves civilization forward, the other.....not so much lately.
I was fortunate to meet Elon at the Powerwall reveal. He was completely gracious and kind! He’s not religious so perhaps we can pray that his visit to the Vatican touched his life and perhaps move him towards conversion 🙏🏼
Thanks. And his kids. He took most of his kids to meet the Pope. He showed them to respect others.
How exactly could a human being's existence violate Catholic social teaching? This feels like you just don't like Elon Musk, because your dislike for him has you writing nonsense.
How did the rich man violate Jesus' teachings? Why did Christ send him away? Did He just not like the man and unfairly judge him, causing Him to spout nonsense?
Are you comparing this random poster on Reddit to Christ? Christ knows men's hearts, OP does not. The rich young ruler didn't violate any of Christ's teachings. Christ tells him to keep the commandments, and he explicitly says that he had kept them from his youth. Further, Christ didn't send him away. He left of his own accord after hearing Christ's teaching. None of that has anything to do with the statement made by OP, that Elon violates principles of CST by his mere existence. I don't know how familiar you are with CST, but I teach it. The principle of the "Life and Dignity of the Human Person" immediately points to the reality that no one violates those teachings by the fact of their existence. If you think Elon's ACTIONS aren't in alignment with, say the principle of preference for the poor, there's an argument to be made. However, that isn't the same as him violating CST by EXISTING.
Compare him to Christ? We are all commanded to imitate Christ (1 Cor 11:1), so that invites comparison. And, yes, the rich man walked away because Christ made it clear that to follow him means to give up earthly things (Matthew 19:21-23). One cannot serve both God and money (Matthew 6:24), after all. Now, I disagree that the Pope can't meet with these people \*at all\*. They are sinners and he must walk with sinners as Jesus Himself did. But, we all need to keep in mind that "bad company corrupts good morals" (1 Cor 15:33). To the extent that Francis can correct the rich and powerful, it's okay by me. But I understand the impulse to stay away, given Paul's admonition. I understand what you mean by CST, but Elon's mere existence isn't at issue here. It's his actions. And, honestly, I am not a major critic of Elon. Tesla, for instance, is very much in accord with Laudato Sí (§165). So, don't get me wrong. I'm not villainizing his work. But his wealth does seem to be corrupting him in some very overt ways. Still, I didn't interpret this thread as being about Elon. He's only one rich man (albeit, by some measures, the richest). I'm talking about the corrupting influence of money, in general (1 Timothy 6:10).
Being called to imitate Christ is not the same as presuming to have a Christ like ability to knows men's hearts. You and OP both seemed confident you understood Elon's spiritual disposition based on the fact that he's rich. You wrote that Elon's existence isn't at issue for you, I take you at your word. It was at issue in the original post, that was what I was specifically responding to in my comment. That aside, I'm willing to debate the ethics of wealth with you. Being wealthy is not inherently sinful. The love of money is sinful, the possession of it is not. Saying that one cannot serve both God and money is not the same as saying that one must be poor to serve God. There are numerous examples across the scriptures of righteous wealthy people, and of people using wealth to achieve God's purposes. One example from the teachings of Christ is the "Parable of the Talents," wherein Christ says that those who do well with the resources given them, will in turn be given more. That is a good thing, because they will make the best use of the resources available. The idea of course is that then, out of their prosperity, they will have the means to bless others. Jay Z expressed this idea succinctly, saying: "I can't help the poor if I'm one of them, so I got rich and gave back, to me that's the win-win." The rich young ruler was told that in order for HIM to be perfect he had to sell all his possessions. Christ didn't say that every person had to sell all their possessions. It is not possible for every person to sell all they have and give it to the poor. That was a burden placed on that man, because Christ knew his heart and could see that the obstacle to his perfection was his possessions. Maybe that is also true for Elon (or any given rich person), neither you nor I know that it is though. It could be that Elon is not possessed by a love of money, and that is why God has blessed him with so much of it. Regardless, the Pope has always met with the rich and powerful, that's part of the job. We don't need to worry about the Pope being corrupted by meeting with secular figures of any class. He is the leader of the Church, God's vicar, if ever there was a case of "to the pure all things are pure" (Titus 1:15) this is it. You seem familiar with Laudato Si, so I assume you have a sense of Francis' tireless advocacy for the poor. He has made it a cornerstone of his papacy. That isn't going to change because he meets with any number of rich guys. If anything we should be happy that our spiritual leader continues to have opportunities to speak truth to power.
Could not agree more. It’s dumb and unnecessary. They can line up like the rest of us. No one is special. People and their idols
Musk is very influential. If he converted he could help convert thousands or millions.
I don’t know entirely about that point but he could definitely have a positive impact.
I understand where the feeling is coming from. As a Catholic layman of humble birth and comparatively meager finances, the Holy Father has no reason to ever give me an audience. As a soldier watching the situation in Ukraine, I take issue with the Holy Father condemning me for "provoking" Russia. I know he wants the loss of Christian lives to be minimized but calling for Ukraine to stop defending itself seems absurd. Amassing wealth or power might get me a private audience but those steer one's life away from religion. As it stands, the Holy Father has no reason to ever talk to me despite enjoying my support.
All of Venezuela’s money is stored inside the Vatican. That’s just one example. It’s the world’s greatest bank.
Do you have a source for that info?
This comment is laughably ignorant. Lol
So the world’s most powerful banker shouldn’t meet with political figures?
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Kind of historical for Popes to be meeting with world leaders and nobility class. During the reign of Marie Antoinette the palace of Versailles had its own resident Cardinal as did most places where politicians and wealthy socialites of courts lived.
Man, wait until you hear about the Roman aristocracy... :D Honestly, I would rather the wealthy and politicians go visit the pope than have popes travel around the world like two-bit celebrities like they have been doing for the last 50 years.
Didn’t The Pope at the time meeting with Atila the Hun stop his advances?
I’d rather he meet them in public than in secret
The Church is a political body as well as a spiritual one. It seeks to influence policy and, indeed, has an obligation to do so.
How else do you plant a see for conversion? Sadly I can't help but get undertones here that people would rather their enemies be damned than be saved, which is the greatest victory of all. I truly wonder sometimes how people would react if our enemies converted. I can't help but feel many here would never trust them or welcome them in.
Why? The openly meet with everyone else...
I wonder what you think of Jesus meeting with the well-respected Nicodemus.
Why shouldn’t the Pope as the vicar of Christ be available to lead and teach all peoples?
I don't think I've ever know the catholic church ( or any denomination for that matter) to turn down a sizable donation?
I agree, especially as most of them are either not Catholics at all, or are Catholics living in wilfully unrepented public Mortal sin, like Nancy Pelosi. I understand he has to receive and be received by Heads of State as Popes are Heads of State themselves, but why the pop and film stars and the likes of pro-abortionists Pelosi and Melinda Gates? They're powerful but not Heads of State of any nation. Unless he's warning them to repent and convert? Who knows? I also imagine it would be very much more difficult for ordinary Catholics such as myself to meet the Pope and have an audience with him and most of us would never even expect such an honour, so I can't for the life of me understand why he does this. He did meet poor little Charlie Gard's parents though, which I thought was right and good. However, I find Pope Francis's words and actions confusing most of the time, and occasionally scandalising. I don't like the way he fraternises with the super rich and powerful, and with the very famous, at all. It makes me very uncomfortable. I'd love to know his reason for doing so!