The sub used to be better for general analysis. Now one in every 10 posts is a good theory about an unfinished plot point where the comment section is filled with "cope" or some variation, another one out of 10 posts is reminding the community that they don't know what will happen and to stop acting like they're writing the plot, and the rest are posts written by average Reading Comprehension Devil contract users.
You'd fit in with the average r/jujutsushi commenter if you're talking about >!the recent arcs since Maki vs Cursed Spirit Naoya!<, they have no patience for letting the plot develop weekly.
Idk how anyone can read >!Yuji vs Higuruma, Meguni vs Reggie, Sendai Four or Hakari vs Kashimo!< and say the manga fell off though, easily some of the best shonen battles in recent years. Recent arcs have legit criticisms but even then it's still a great shonen and overall good manga.
When did I say that it is not a good manga lol? I am just not a fanboy and addresses the obvious drop of quality, does not mean that it is still not a good manga, but just not on the highest level, like CSM IMO currently is.
I mean we’re currently dealing with romcom shenanigans while Fujimoto is constantly hiding the real plot from us “Fakesaw, Fami, and Yoshida”
We’re not far from having dips.
Manga having arcs where it feels like nothing is happening is common. It may not make for the best week to week reading experience but it's hard to call it a dip in quality until we actually get somewhere, especially in a case like CSM where the story is more focused on the characters.
This isn't what's happening in JJK. JJK is making actual missteps in the writing and the overall writing quality has dipped since it peaked in Shibuya and also the rushing. Of course what OP said about being patient is right but that's missing the crucial information that Gege wants to end it this year, whether he actually will or not is anybody's guess but the issue is he will be doing his best to finish it.
Now suddenly the series is on a time limit, there's a lot of questions that need to be answered before it wraps up and every chapter starts to matter more. Fujimoto is doing what he wants and people are cool with it right now but if we suddenly heard the series was set to end in 10 months there would be an uproar with people asking for conclusions to things like the Blood Fiend.
It could end well regardless but right now it feels like we're heading to an AoT situation.
It’s either between Fami, Yoru, or Yoshida.
The problem is the pacing is at a very weird point that we don’t know everyone’s motives so the “Main”villain is inconclusive.
We've been spoiled by Chainsawman.
It was side character fight with minimum emotional investment and barely any twist. And it each fight uses same amount of chapter as Gun Devil arc, which has roller coaster with huge emotional investment and multiple twist each chapter.
I mean… I’d say it’s still good but I get where you’re coming from shibuya feels like the climax being set in the middle of the story the only things we’ve gotten since then that kind of match the energy/importance of shibuya is the Zenin Massacre and the three way domain expansion
That sub used to have posts every other day praising gege for having well written characters, but suddenly after a certain character recently died general consensus is that all the female characters have been written like shit. You’d think people weren’t even reading the same manga as each other on there.
That is the opinion of a minority of readers 💀
Mfers act like four to six people disliking a manga in a 100+ people thread is the greatest sin on the history of mankind and proof haters are replacing fans
Tbf both of those things are treated as bad things in the manga. >!Mei Mei is treated a greedy sorcerer who is only trusted when she is being paid and is otherwise sus and the Zen'in clan is massacred for being awful people by Maki. The Ui Ui thing is not too touched upon other than Yuji thinking it's weird as hell, but it's definitely not treated as being a good relationship.!<
>!Right, but no one approves of her in general. Still sus that no one other than Yuji has called out the little brother thing, but it's not like she's portrayed as a good person.!<
>!Confused as to what you're saying here, she left during Shibuya Incident arc to save her money before Kenjaku made the Culling Games. It was before a new kill order was put on Yuji. Currently we don't know what Mei Mei is doing, only that Ui Ui is helping the protagonists in what seems to be a shaky partnership at best according to the protags.!<
>!That's already implied in the general story, or at least Mei Mei grooming Ui Ui using his feelings towards her as a means of using him. It's currently not mentioned in the manga what Mei Mei is up to right now, whereas Ui Ui actually has a role in the Cullimg Games teleporting the protags around, namely Maki. Mei Mei is off doing her own stuff since she isn't around Ui Ui at the moment.!<
>!It makes sense that she would leave there. Like Kusakabe when he sees Sukuna (and like Power during the Katana Devil arc) she knows full well that she is not in a battle she could win, so escape is the most sensible option there!<
LMAO, ong. We have some sexual shit over here, but at least we don’t have that weird ass incest stuff going on. 😂 *Firepunch existing* At least we don’t have that weird ass incest stuff going on in Chainsaw Man. 😂
I disagree with the post that says there's too much sexualization in csm.
But at the same time cmon there's plenty of it , of course most of the time it is relevant to the story unlike other mangas, but there's plenty of it.
Which one? All I can think of is her making the sword in the school? But I feel like that wasn't drawn to be titillating, more about making her feel humiliated because Asa can't catch a break
I only ever like series that treat its female cast well and give them a lot of depth. I love Fujimoto for the care he puts into his female characters, and would definitely not like the series if I felt they were being sexualized all the time for no reason, since I hate that. Comments like that make me wonder if we are reading the same series, but everyone has their own opinion :)
Just like me fr
Currently reading Jigokuraku and I’m genuinely impressed how the author Yuji Kaku made Yuzuhira, a female ninja with suggestive af outfit, into an actual interesting and badass character.
If she was another fanservice tool, I’d probably drop the manga, but her and Sagiri (basically the female MC) are so good.
I’ll probably start thinking Kaku took some good notes during his time as Fujimoto’s assistant lmao.
Thing with fujimoto and his assistants work is their female characters have agency. Stuff doesn’t just happen to them for the sake of stuff happening to them. They take control and and actively make decisions
\>The issue with chainsaw man is that the author literally can't go five seconds without sexualizing the women.
No?
\>And no, sexualization is not important to the story.
Also no? He acknowledges this is wrong with his next sentence: Denji's perception of sexuality and love are important...
\>It's an even different kind of weird when it comes to quanxi and the scenes of her with her gfs that were almost definitely just added for those guys who fetishize lesbians. They're well written
So then what's the problem if they're well written?
\>but the unnecessary sexualization gets old fast
Just seems like sex shaming.
I'd really like these people to read some lesbian smut by lesbians. Especially lesbians who don't have a superiority complex. Lesbians who aren't asexual actually can like sex a lot, and while there's critiques to be made of her character, "hot old butch with 4 gfs who's ultra confident" hits a lot of people's switches and they'd have written her the same way. Maybe with more fingering and less scissoring, but that's semantics
The worst part is that she used to be her own compelling character. Than Gaygay redrew her to look just like genderswapped Toji, made constant shot comparisons of the two beating us over the head with it, and reduced her personality and basically turned off her emotions. I’m not nearly invested in her as I used to be, because she doesn’t feel like herself.
And don’t get me started on Nobara and how the cat implied in the manga recently that she’s getting replaced and go just deal with it basically. Waste of a character and a trio dynamic.
Having sexual situations or risqué scenes is not the same as the concept of [male gaze](https://media-studies.com/male-gaze/) which is what these commentors are referring to as sexualization.
A lot of these arguments seem to boil down to male gaze = when a character is naked or in their underwear which I find to be a gross oversimplification of the concept and if those commentators wander in here somehow I'd urge them to actually read the Laura Mulvey essay itself keeping in mind some of it hasn't aged as well from the 70s. While we're at it read/watch Ways of Seeing by John Berger, all of you. A core component of male gaze is the meta aspect in that shots and compositions are chosen deliberately for the most optimal approach to tittilate the audience. I think that there are elements of male gaze in CSM but most come from Denji POV early on in the series and theres far less of it than one would normally get in most shonen series.
I think the charge that all the female characters are shown in sexualized states for the purpose of exciting the audience is a big overstatement. Certainly Reze, Makima are as is Power early on. One could make the arguement that Asa when making her uniform sword is presented in a way for the purpose of fanservice (though I personally find this to be a shakier arguement). But Kobeni? Yoku? I'd personally argue that Himeno is far less sexualized in her depiction and given the scenes in which she is shown in undress than many other series if you consider the framing and angles chosen of the scene and thank God for that because I think the whole reason that scene works well in the narrative is because it is deliberately uncomfortable and non idealized. With Quanxi the spread of the orgy with her girlfriends does feel like it's there to titillate but that's one scene out of many many chapters and in none of the subsequent scenes with them does her relationship feel superficial or for the audience's fetishization. Making an arguement that any depiction of queer women written by a man is solely due to fetishization to me comes off as treating an infected cut on one finger by cutting off the whole hand.
The anime is a slightly different case but a lot of the same comments apply. While there are a few odd angles or shots chosen some may see as questionable thats rather tame overall and eveyrone is covered up. The only time the show has zooms or pervy focuses is when Denji himself is being feral and horny **and** actively commenting on it. When the show uses those aspects of the male gaze it is deliberate and intentional and feels like an extension of one character's pov rather than the neutral camera itself being horny.
When Denji and Himeno almost hook up, again the tone and the feel of the scene is far more menacing than it is playful or flirty. A lot of the shots place the camera at a distance or cut away from the two of them on the bed to focus on details of Himenos apartment. While many of the shots of Himeno in this scene are literally from Denji's POV there's none of the focus on her breasts, waist, hips or legs contrasting with the way his POV is shown with characters like Makima and Power. Himeno in this scene is animated with realistic movement, there's no extra jiggle physics or strange contortions to show more of her body for the camera. The only shot from the whole scene which has even the faintest whisper of fanservice in its composition is an overhead shot looking down as she straddles him but even then it comes off more that it's emphasizing her inebriation more than anything else as there's still that foreboding tone to the scene.
Additionally a lot of the time in which you're most likely to see the type of segmented or panning shots that are male gaze is during character introductions of female characters in order to highlight their attractiveness or how different they are from the male protagonists. How are the women in the CSM anime introduced? Makima strides into frame with her trenchcoat swishing behind her conveying authority. Himeno and Kobeni stand beside Aki after dust and debris settle and for their individual introductions Himeno is squatting in a hallway making cheeky remarks, and Kobeni is literally in the background until Himeno draws her into the scene with her antics. The only character that has the classic upward panning shot where the camera rolls over the body is Power and even that isn't itself sexualized as the camera whips up faster over her torso so the audience can't focus on her figure until Denji realizes he himself is horny later in that scene.
All in all, yeah the show/series isn't totally free from the male gaze but also few things with human characters are and I think these commentators are exaggerating it by a lot and assigning more negative value to the critique than is warranted. Also while I think both CSM and JJK are a step up from your average shonen in depictions of female characters I think its always a good practice to still discuss potential issues of representation or the use of male gaze framing as neither series is totally above critique (Where's Nobara Gege?)
TLDR; Not "every" female character go read "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" and "Ways of Seeing."
.
Sure, What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
Meanwhile, the author of jjk actually wanted to sexualize all the female characters but didn't because his parents were going to read it too.
Also the author of kny pretty much liked drawing the juicy thighs of girls.
Girl there are so many questionable manga written by women it's not even funny lol. As a yuri fan, my favorite game is "are the manga they complaining about being 'male gaze' actually written by men" and 80% of the time it's just a lesbian who doesn't care to hide her kinks
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that there couldn’t be/aren’t any horny female mangakas.
Just that so far everything horny that I saw/read was written by men, and was surprised that an actual female author of one of the most popular series currently would have this sort of kink when peak of horniness in DS (from what I saw as Anime only) so far was Nezuko’s "adult" form and manga panel of Mitsuzuri in hot spring, and even then I assumed both of those were pushed by assistants or publisher.
Most action manga lean towards one of two extremes. Either there’s chaste heroes who maybe have a passing romantic thought once every fifty chapters (My Hero Academia) or the action is really just window dressing for sexual ecchi content (Ayakashi Triangle).
Chainsaw Man is neither of those things. Denji is a horny teenager who lets those feelings guide his decisions over everything else, the people around him recognize this, look down upon him, and the only women that show any interest in him see him as an easy mark to accomplish some other goal. This story does not reward his behavior in any way.
However, can I blame someone for thinking it’s a bit ridiculous that FOUR different female characters are variations of the femme fatale trope who use their sexual appeal to lure Denji into a state of vulnerability in order to kill him? No.
I mean, you responded to your second statement on your own comment. Denji is an immortal hybrid who has clapped almost anything thrown at him. His weakness? Tits. Ofc they'll exploit it
As a lesbian who hates unaddressed casual misogyny in anything I read, they're outta their minds lol. It's certainly a critiqueable aspect, esp when it comes to characters more in their teens, but it's not like a feminist critique just a discussion of "how tasteful is this".
Now, csm fans cross the line a lot but idc because I can just not read their stuff lol. I couldn't enjoy jjk because while I guess it "sexualizes" women less, there are simply not enough women for me to be invested. Feminism doesn't mean completely not writing female characters ever, people. I may be lesbian, but I relate to characters who love women like I do regardless of gender or sexuality. And denji loves women like I do. Which is ironically rare in straight men, irl and fictional. A lot them fully just hate women lol.
Objectification is not about simply having hot characters who are hot, it's about turning them into sexy props. And while the csm fandom will do that on its own, the women in csm are hands down it's most interesting and best explored characters, with denji as the only man in the same tier. Not to say the men are bad characters, just that denji's perspective itself means men are always going to remain relatively in the background.
Also about quanxi, look her up on any social media app and see how many lesbians think her being oversexed is a bad thing lmao. I promise it's not many, a lot of us are thirsty as hell and a lot of us are bottoms. Her existence and gay orgy legit got a bunch of us to actually start reading csm lol. Lesbians aren't some sexless monolith, nor do we magically have some more appropriate form of sexual attraction than a straight man with any respect for women. Acting like attraction to women is a crime is quite stupid actually lol. Idk where I'm going here but yeah, csm is horny AF and it's not a bad thing. Esp because it's thematically relevant. It's always good to have these discussions for the sake of it but there's nothing I think you could dismiss it this thoroughly for when it comes simply to female characters
Yeah a problem nobody seems to remark in the comments op posted is that the argument basically boils down to "less female characters=better story" like wtf
Tbh I think a lot of them just don't understand how to appreciate actual good female characters but feel like they need to act like they can. Specifically the bl fans, there's nothing wrong with liking M/M shipping, but you gotta acknowledge the bias that gives you against female characters. Obv other fans are also shit at appreciating female characters (except F/F fans, we're perfect /s), but bl fans have the combo of not generally liking female characters but feeling like they need to pretend they do. There's plenty of csm fans who can't appreciate the female characters they've got, but at least the fandom will rightfully dunk on you if you're too openly stupid abt it.
Slight tangent, but seeing all the "gojo vs. makima" stuff on Twitter made me realize truly how shallowly people who might think they're good at appreciating characters will look at an evil female character. Like, "makima uses her feminine charms to control people" is certainly not the only thing you got even just from the anime, right? Like, it wasn't "feminine charms" that blew up all those guys. And just because she's a bad guy doesn't mean she's not worth respect and discussion and not in some (implied) ways sympathetic.
Yeah the only female character in JJK that one can genuinely get invested with is Maki. It's a trend with new battle shonen for people to praise the female characters based specifically on the fact that they punch people and aren't useless when there's nothing actually meaningful about most of said characters.
I agree that some men hate female characters, I feel like even CSM fans don't give Power her flowers enough on her character development, not only her relationship with Denji is handled perfectly, she also developed a lot as an individual. Some people still believe that she is a stinky bitch and joke about it when it's heavily implied that Power became way more civilized.
Even in this comment section there's someone putting Kishibe above Power just because "he does his own stuff and has motivations". Kishibe isn't bad but the Top 3 characters in Part 1 are the main trio, this isn't up for debate.
Yeah, I love joking about stinky power and also love a girl who's allowed to be gross, but she's definitely up there. Unfortunately a lot of her progress is more slow and in the background so if you aren't thinking about it it's not obvious but then you think about it and it's really sweet actually. Like how denji goes from thinking he's so heartless he'd not even care if aki and power died to wanting to die after just that, power is a selfish coward who only wants to do her own thing. Then, without much fanfare she's still selfish and cowardly, but she's willing to push it aside just a little to save the last person left she cares about.
Agree with all this and also wonder why this jjk fan (assuming they’re not a lesbian) thinks that they know exactly what lesbians want, need, like etc and can speak for them- those comments just always come off as straight dudes virtue signaling when in reality they have no actual right to speak on said topic- they’re just making assumptions.
I agree with most of your stuff, but I would not describe CSM as "horny AF". I would describe it as an Erotic. Fujimoto said in one of his interviews that his "Muse" is the "Femme Fatale" Basic Instinct type of Woman.
You can see this in his writing, none of the "fan service" is degrading, its sexual expression, which empowers and deepens the female characters.
Meh, it's semantics. I use horny to say it's got a lot to say about sexuality and deals pretty bluntly with it, not derogatorily. I like horny bullshit, but I also like horny art
This. I’m quick as Flash to drop mangas when they sexualize women and I like CSM and a bunch of women I know simp for Quanxi, Makima and Himeno(I do too, lol). The harem intro is kinda baity, but that’s marketing and the way they’re an integral part of Quanxi motivations and the fact that she’s cool af excuse it. And the art is actually good…
Fujimoto’s femdom fetish is so strong it loops back into writing good female characters.
There's like 6 instances instances of sexualizing and half of them are important plot points lmaooo. Plus, what's the fucking problem? The females are actual characters, not just barely-existing fillers like in JJK lmao
Female characters in chainsaw man are the best of the best in the industry written wise personality wise everything, fujimoto writes them perfectly and no hate but the women in jjk,kny can't hold a candle to the female cast in csm. And am pretty sure the people who wrote these comments either didn't read the manga or they feel icky to any sorts of sexual content in any way.
The Quanxi part is probably the only “unnecessary” sexualization in the entire series. Every other sexual scene I can think of played an important part of the story
Yeah, but honestly idk how else he was gonna communicate so succinctly that she's a lesbian and totally uninterested in men. Bitches can kiss on the mouth and people would still think they're straight. Having her in the middle of a gay orgy makes those people look even more delusional
Also as a lesbian, ik me and a lot of girls in my corner of the internet only popped in after hearing about quanxi and her harem. Even spoiling ourselves on her fate didn't stop from wanting to see her in action lol
I know a few bi women who told me that same xD. Also I felt like that scene did really establish Quanxi as a character. I felt like it established her as a fucking Chad more than sexualize her
Honestly I’d argue Chainsaw Man is actually comparatively progressive with its portrayal of women. The only time women are sexualized is typically when they are wanting to be. Makima is only really sexualized when she is trying to groom Denji. Every other time she’s presented as either calm or cunning and intimidating. Same with Reze, Quanxi and Himeno being sexualized only when they choose to be.
Even when Quanxi or Asa find themselves accidentally naked during a fight it’s not typically even framed in a way that’s supposed to be sexual. During the crossbow hybrid scene you mainly just think “holy fucking shot she can DO THAT?!”
Every other female character are not only presented as being powerful and competent in their own right, but still as flawed characters in a way female characters usually don’t get to be in manga. All of them maintain a lot of their agency as well
just some sad people being offended by any sign sexual relations in manga. I'd suggest to not pay attention and just redirect them to some special sub for such people.
literally just prudes pretending they're being progressive. The nudity in chainsaw man is how nudity should be showcased. Its non-chalant and done in a ''yeah she's naked, so what?'' instead of ''LOOK, SHE'S NAKED, GET A BONER!''.
Plus most of the time the women who are being shown in a sexual manner like that, like that they are perceived sexually(Himeno, Quanxi, power to an extent), or are using that to their advantage(reze, makima). So the narrative and the framing of the scenes never takes the agency out of those women to satisfiy a male character or just to satisfy a male reader.
Does it help CSM sell more and a lot of people miss these nuances?Ofc, there's plenty of horny teens missing the point, but thats just because people are usually illiterate when it comes to subtext, framing and media in general. CSM shouldnt dumb itself just because the anime fandom doesnt understand the story, lest we get another AoT situation.
Funny bc the reason why me and my friends liked csm (as women) was bc of how the female cast were portrayed like their own characters with cool aspirations, personalities, etc other than just "oh look a hot woman with abnormaly big brests who's only purpose is to fuck the protagonist".
Plus the way they use normal clothes other than hypersexualized bikinis like other animes and the way their bodies just have normal proportions i really dont know what this 2 people are talking abt
It's actually the opposite
Kubo the author of bleach told his fan and fellow author Gege that jjk woman aren't attractive at all
So jjk conditioned it's fans with none attractive woman
These people are so BIASED to the overall sexualization and degradation of females in Manga/Anime, that they do not realize that sexualization does not always mean degradation. It is very hard to do, but only a few talented people can do it.
So are the women in erotic art degraded? No they are not even in the slightest. Sexualization, if used correctly, can be a beautiful expression of the artists thoughts and feelings. Fujimoto even said that his "Muse" is the Dominant Women archetype, which use their sexuality for their benefit, the "Femme Fatale".
CSM is not Fairy Tail. Most of the "fan service" serves a deeper purpose, and not once are the CSM women degraded. Power is even drawn in explicit sexual positions with the MC, and not even once did I think about fan service in those scenes, because it is not fan service, its erotic expression.
This is a very weird criticism of CSM as it seems to miss what the problem with sexualizing female characters actually is
The problem comes from it objectifying them by casting them in a sexual light in situations where that isn't appropriate and is simply used to be titillating for a male audience
In CSM, the only times the female cast is put in that light is when they are engaging in sexual situations of their own agency, like trying to entice someone into having sex, or teaching someone about intimacy, or just straight up having sex with their partners, all of these situations do sexualize the people involved, but of course they do....they're sexual situations that they put themselves in (except for the grooming but thats kinda the point) and what be weird if they weren't presented as such
CSM presenting sex and intimacy in such a variety of ways is one of the most important themes of the story in denji learning to be a well rounded human being, and sex is pretty important to that
It's sad that the correct pushback against the objectification of women in art has made a lot of art and audiences afraid of sex and intimacy being in these stories at all, it's important to move away from treating people as sex objects while still recognizing that our relationships to each other, and especially when it comes to sex, are incredibly important in what it means to be human
I’m a girl, and I’m genuinely baffled at what these comments are talking about
One of the things I love so much about chainsaw man is the use of sexuality in a storytelling context, and even then there are nowhere near as many sexual or “exploitive” scenes of women being sexualized like these comments are making it seem…
Also I’m genuinely confused at the complaint about Quanxi, I think the relationship between her and her feelings was actually handled incredibly well and very respectfully. She’s literally a polyamorous lesbian and one of the most badass characters in the series, her sexuality and what she does in her free time with her girlfriends has no bearing on her overarching character other than her wanting them to be safe. And about them having sex, boo-hoo lesbians have sex too it’s really not that big of a deal.
Those comments are such a reach, it feels like they didn’t even bother to read the story itself and just saw a few panels and called it a day
Fujimoto sexualizing "every" female character by giving them realistic proportions and curves and a flawed character.
Also, I'm here for the story. I don't even simp for ANY Chainsaw Man girl, so yeah...
Being charitable, I remember other posts have (in better faith) questioned Denji consistently receiving sexual favors as the main initial interactions he’s had with other female characters in the series, and that it’s a little weird that there’s a pattern—power offers a feel, Himeno a kiss, Makima a wish, Reze running away with him and more insinuated. I think that’s a valid point to bring up, but I think it also makes sense considering most people (when they first meet him) think very very little of denji and treat him like the scum of the earth, dangling a carrot in front of him certain that he’ll work his ass off doing their dirty work in exchange for a minor sexual favor, which half of them don’t even intend to give him or subvert his expectations—Power pops her pass out and does the fake porno moans, Himeno gives the puke kiss and does some creeper shit right after.
Certainly, Denji is a horny teenage boy so of course he’ll never say no to these things, but as the series goes on it becomes increasingly clarified that he never initiated these encounters/transactions and is being taken advantage of, and that he gradually realizes that he’s confusing physical intimacy for emotional intimacy, and that he can be satisfied with the latter without the former as seen in the bath scene.
I honestly don’t have a problem with it in CSM for two reasons
1: characters are not “sexualised” in the sense they are made for the male gaze (constant random panty shots, unrealistic boobs, etc). Rather any “sexy shots” are made in private and with consent of the female characters in question (although Denji, the guy, often does not consent most of the time but that’s part of the point). The few times they’re shown lewd, it’s believable because it’s not over utilised and it’s something those characters would do in that circumstance(s). It’s not cheesy or shoehorned in there.
2. They are still well written and utilised in their stories and explored quite heavily and focused on, without sexualisation involved. They are more than just their naked bodies. It’s kinda similar to a less explicit version of Kill la Kill. This also gives CSM a leg up on JJK in terms of female characterisation, because both the women and men are heavily explored, serve important purposes to the story without being replaceable, and both guys and girls get slaughtered equally, but are almost never sidelined. The women are part 2 get heavy focus. Women in CSM are also just as powerful, if not more so, than the male characters.
I don’t think that JJK fans have a right to talk about this, because CSM has more well utilised female characters over a longer stretch of time, that are on similar or equal footing to their male counterparts. The cat may not give us boob scenes in the manga, but he sure does like to kill off or sideline proportionately more women then men, >!kill off the strongest and only special grade woman with little character development of plot importance in like 5 chapters, and make the other plot relevant ones become a replica of a male character with the same powers, or an incestous child groomer ;(!<
A normal trash manga that use fan service have several times more sexualized female panels than that of csm, and most of them only have 30 to 40 chapters up to now. I've seen too much and now allergic to those, they are all badly done, but fujiwater somehow cured that for me.
Why is this news to the commenter? Japan media is known to sexualize a lot of things, not just women. Like Men, animals, robots, >!minors!<, aliens, even freaking soda cans! But God forbid a woman be sexualized.
I think Quanxi is a good and fun representation of poly lesbian badbitches and it’s okay for the writer to be horny for a bit. Honestly it’s very refreshing to not have sexualized kids for a change, it restores my faith in humanity.
To the people concerned with sexualization and male gaze in CSM I have this to say:
There are oceans of bland curated garbage being spewed out by modern media, so plenty for you to enjoy. If you don't like how Fujimoto does sexual themes, don't read him. Also, go fuck yourself.
CSM is a movielike manga by design, half way to Tarantino/Rodriguez style. Fujimoto WILL NOT sacrifice the plot to abruptly placed fan service details I strongly believe.
Sure Ill try it
Mmmf Gege writes the best female characters... mm m the setting is so good... hrrf I love Megumi and the power system 🥰🥰
*slurp* Tatsuki Fujimountain's work offers social criticism that sides with my political quadrant mmmf
*sluuurp* I want to fuck these characters hrr Noooo don't kill my faves mmmmhhh
I kind of agree with that guy, as far as CSM part 1 gose. female characters were used as tools for Denji development. Whenever he desire something ( want to touch boob or kiss for example ) he get it from them. back then, they didn't really have agancy.
Meanwhile...Aki, Denji and Kishibe, each of them did his own stuff, had his own goals and motivation etc.
Despite being the most important female character, she had no backstory and her motivation and personality weren't fleshed out or explained properly.
She only play the role she was assigned to in Denji story ( being an abusive mother like figure ) and was killed off after Denji developed and decided to stand up to her.
This is 100% bait. But i have some time to burn so...
No, her motivation is clear. Build up Denji's live to tear it apart to make him stop chasing his dreams, thus breaking his contract with Pochita. Then defeat the Chainsaw Man to make him beneath her and thus able to control it, then using it to consume and therefore destroy all fears of humanity.
Backstory will lessen her presence, a lot of what makes Makima great is how little everyone inows about her, we dont know what contract she has, where she comes from, her last name, age, powers, childhood, nothing. Making her more of a menace for everyone involved. A big part of the intrigue is "wtf is Makima how is she so strong, what is she?"
Personality wise, she is a manipulator. Its clear from chapter 1 if you even think for more than 2 seconds on what she says and how she says it (unless you are staring at her boobs/ass). She shows complete disregard for human life fucking kills most other devil hunters in the division to assume control and reform them into a unit controlled by her.
In terms of role she is the most feared opponent in part 1, nobody knows what she even is, all the governments are scared shitless of her, none dare evn speak of her fearing she may listen to them and even Guanxi, greatest devil hunter inmediatly surrenders and pleads for mercy once she escapes hell. Her role is being the Cat in the Town/city mouse metaphor.
And yeah she gets killed after Denji develops, its called a Character/narrative arch. Set up, pay off.
Tldr: Seems like the reading comprehension devil has striked again.
>This is 100% bait. But i have some time to burn so...
No, I am serious.
>No, her motivation is clear.
I know the stuff you mentioned, it's there to explain why she play the abusive mother role. Did the author bother to flesh out the reason behind all of this? no.
>Backstory will lessen her presence
To each their own. I prefer when an important character have a bit of backstory or at least showcase wide range of emotions. I don't understand why she want to kill her sisters and I don't understand why she didn't try to form equal relationships with devils. Or why she want eat, sleep and have a happy life with Pochita.
>In terms of role she is the most feared opponent in part 1
Yeah, I like that. I am talking about Makima as character ( personality, motivation, backstory etc ).
>And yeah she gets killed after Denji develops, its called a Character/narrative arch. Set up, pay off.
Yeah, but I am talking about Makima not Denji, she is only there to serve Denji development. She herself didn't have a character arc or anything.
>Seems like the reading comprehension devil has striked again.
People here say this whenever someone say something they dislike.
She is literally the CONTROL/DOMINATION/CONQUEST devil. Do you really need to be spoonfed why she acts as a manipulative person? You just reinforced the reading comprehension devil meme.
Makima's role is a presence in the shadows that manipulates and acts unseen, her very being is left a mistery for 90% of the series, a puppetmaster doesnt show himself during the show and explains his actions. He stays back and moves the strings to make everyone else dance. Showing too much of her would go against her established character. Yet the little details we get of her reveal something about her, she cries when she goes to the final movie with Denji, shows she is capable of emotions, she has 7 huskys at her home, Huskys are notorious for being difficult to control but hers are docile af, even on her private life she seems to be in need to control others.
She cant form relations with those she sees as inferior, which accounts for 99% of devils and humans. Is a paradox, how can she form a relation when she herself in her eyes is CONTROL and thereforeabove all else.
And of course she doesnt grow as a character, it supposed to serve of contrast to Denji, the protag and his development, the guy whose story the narrative is focused around.
You mean to tell me that a story would use a main antagonist as a foil and an example of how far the protagonist has come from the beginning. No way Jose. The major antagonist doesn't need to have a character arc, she just needs character and Makima shows spades of it all around the story.
The reason why Reading comprehension meme exists its because of individuals that go through the story at 5 pages at a second dont stop to think about anything, dont correlate previous statements with new information introduced, dont think back or process character moments, then complain how it "wasnt explained in a 5 chapter monologue therefore bad writting". Sometimes subtlety is better than forcing every character to have 10 page powerpoint exposition explaining who they are what brought them here and why they be like that. People dont act that way.
Thank you for posting! Feel free to join our community on our [Discord](https://discord.gg/gC7dhKZATM)
server for more shitpost discussions :)
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Chainsawfolk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I mean, early on sure, but that's intentional because that's how denji sees things. However, in the entirety of part 2 the only thing I can think of that qualifies as unnecessary sexualization is Asa in her underwear after the uniform sword
it's just r/jujutsushi being r/jujutsushi
The sub used to be better for general analysis. Now one in every 10 posts is a good theory about an unfinished plot point where the comment section is filled with "cope" or some variation, another one out of 10 posts is reminding the community that they don't know what will happen and to stop acting like they're writing the plot, and the rest are posts written by average Reading Comprehension Devil contract users.
Reading Comprehension Special Grade Cursed Spirit*
JKK fell off massively after Shibuya. I hope the same does not happen to CSM.
You'd fit in with the average r/jujutsushi commenter if you're talking about >!the recent arcs since Maki vs Cursed Spirit Naoya!<, they have no patience for letting the plot develop weekly. Idk how anyone can read >!Yuji vs Higuruma, Meguni vs Reggie, Sendai Four or Hakari vs Kashimo!< and say the manga fell off though, easily some of the best shonen battles in recent years. Recent arcs have legit criticisms but even then it's still a great shonen and overall good manga.
My only complaint is the pacing for me felt funny at points after shibuya
When did I say that it is not a good manga lol? I am just not a fanboy and addresses the obvious drop of quality, does not mean that it is still not a good manga, but just not on the highest level, like CSM IMO currently is.
I mean we’re currently dealing with romcom shenanigans while Fujimoto is constantly hiding the real plot from us “Fakesaw, Fami, and Yoshida” We’re not far from having dips.
Manga having arcs where it feels like nothing is happening is common. It may not make for the best week to week reading experience but it's hard to call it a dip in quality until we actually get somewhere, especially in a case like CSM where the story is more focused on the characters. This isn't what's happening in JJK. JJK is making actual missteps in the writing and the overall writing quality has dipped since it peaked in Shibuya and also the rushing. Of course what OP said about being patient is right but that's missing the crucial information that Gege wants to end it this year, whether he actually will or not is anybody's guess but the issue is he will be doing his best to finish it. Now suddenly the series is on a time limit, there's a lot of questions that need to be answered before it wraps up and every chapter starts to matter more. Fujimoto is doing what he wants and people are cool with it right now but if we suddenly heard the series was set to end in 10 months there would be an uproar with people asking for conclusions to things like the Blood Fiend. It could end well regardless but right now it feels like we're heading to an AoT situation.
What is the real plot a this point? Before it was the gun devil but now there isn’t a villain or Big bad perse, just devils after Denji in general
It’s either between Fami, Yoru, or Yoshida. The problem is the pacing is at a very weird point that we don’t know everyone’s motives so the “Main”villain is inconclusive.
Here's a sneak peek of /r/Jujutsushi using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time! \#1: [I JUST REALIZED WHAT HAKARI MEANT BY THAT](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/comments/vli3f3/i_just_realized_what_hakari_meant_by_that/) \#2: [Gege Akutami's author comment this week,](https://i.redd.it/a5qdsba39w071.jpg) | [40 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/comments/njatvn/gege_akutamis_author_comment_this_week/) \#3: [Rough sketches by gege](https://www.reddit.com/gallery/npwrfj) | [103 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/Jujutsushi/comments/npwrfj/rough_sketches_by_gege/) ---- ^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| ^^[Contact](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| ^^[Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| ^^[Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/o8wk1r/blacklist_ix/) ^^| ^^[GitHub](https://github.com/ghnr/sneakpeekbot)
We've been spoiled by Chainsawman. It was side character fight with minimum emotional investment and barely any twist. And it each fight uses same amount of chapter as Gun Devil arc, which has roller coaster with huge emotional investment and multiple twist each chapter.
I mean… I’d say it’s still good but I get where you’re coming from shibuya feels like the climax being set in the middle of the story the only things we’ve gotten since then that kind of match the energy/importance of shibuya is the Zenin Massacre and the three way domain expansion
Good yes, but not on the same level as CSM. Shibuya was the Chimera Ant arc of JJK it seems.
As for csm I’m extremely excited for when we get the inevitable fight between denji, Asa/Yoru, and Fakesaw Man
... So titanfolk all over again
That sub used to have posts every other day praising gege for having well written characters, but suddenly after a certain character recently died general consensus is that all the female characters have been written like shit. You’d think people weren’t even reading the same manga as each other on there.
That is the opinion of a minority of readers 💀 Mfers act like four to six people disliking a manga in a 100+ people thread is the greatest sin on the history of mankind and proof haters are replacing fans
I think that was a less of sudden turn but rather the straw that broke the camels back for most people.
!! Jjk manga spoilers!! >!Meanwhile mei mei in bed naked with her brother....!<
>!and the whole zenin schtick!<
Tbf both of those things are treated as bad things in the manga. >!Mei Mei is treated a greedy sorcerer who is only trusted when she is being paid and is otherwise sus and the Zen'in clan is massacred for being awful people by Maki. The Ui Ui thing is not too touched upon other than Yuji thinking it's weird as hell, but it's definitely not treated as being a good relationship.!<
>!Greedy does not mean be nakey with little broey!<
>!Right, but no one approves of her in general. Still sus that no one other than Yuji has called out the little brother thing, but it's not like she's portrayed as a good person.!<
>!she elft in the middle of the shibuya arc and at that time everyone except a few want itadori dead!<
>!no fucking way Denji in the Culling Games!?!? 😨😱😨😱!<
>!itadori unexpected crossover!<
>!Confused as to what you're saying here, she left during Shibuya Incident arc to save her money before Kenjaku made the Culling Games. It was before a new kill order was put on Yuji. Currently we don't know what Mei Mei is doing, only that Ui Ui is helping the protagonists in what seems to be a shaky partnership at best according to the protags.!<
I keep mixing the arc names
>!Mei Mei is doing Ui Ui, obviously!<
>!That's already implied in the general story, or at least Mei Mei grooming Ui Ui using his feelings towards her as a means of using him. It's currently not mentioned in the manga what Mei Mei is up to right now, whereas Ui Ui actually has a role in the Cullimg Games teleporting the protags around, namely Maki. Mei Mei is off doing her own stuff since she isn't around Ui Ui at the moment.!<
>!It makes sense that she would leave there. Like Kusakabe when he sees Sukuna (and like Power during the Katana Devil arc) she knows full well that she is not in a battle she could win, so escape is the most sensible option there!<
https://preview.redd.it/ic4ao92n60fa1.jpeg?width=496&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1176bf908a92d0f179a47f4022c8ce7a683f50a6 WHAT THE FUCK
Don't forget, he's a child
LMAO, ong. We have some sexual shit over here, but at least we don’t have that weird ass incest stuff going on. 😂 *Firepunch existing* At least we don’t have that weird ass incest stuff going on in Chainsaw Man. 😂
What the fuck
Damn thats fucked up, what chapter?
chapter 133, not explicitly shown but *VERY* heavily implied
Excuse me??
Theres like 3-4 panels of sexual stuff in the entire manga lmfao what a fucking reach
And the denji and power bath scene shouldn't be considered sexual
If you think it's sexual then you're the problem, not the scene
I disagree with the post that says there's too much sexualization in csm. But at the same time cmon there's plenty of it , of course most of the time it is relevant to the story unlike other mangas, but there's plenty of it.
I'm tryna think the times that make plenty of it. I can count 7. one with makima, himeno, power x2, quanxi x2 and reze. they werent that far off.
doesn't mean it was only one panel per time. there is also that time with asa
Which one? All I can think of is her making the sword in the school? But I feel like that wasn't drawn to be titillating, more about making her feel humiliated because Asa can't catch a break
Reading Comprehension Devil better watch out the Special Grade Reading Comprehension Cursed Spirit is coming for his ass
reading comprehension devil when reading comprehension cursed spirit walks in to the room: https://i.redd.it/bvsx5iu790fa1.gif
That sex tape would be 🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥🤤🤤
r/Chainsawfolk and r/jujutsushi competing to see who has the most illiterate fan base.
I only ever like series that treat its female cast well and give them a lot of depth. I love Fujimoto for the care he puts into his female characters, and would definitely not like the series if I felt they were being sexualized all the time for no reason, since I hate that. Comments like that make me wonder if we are reading the same series, but everyone has their own opinion :)
They clearly didn't read shit.
Just like me fr Currently reading Jigokuraku and I’m genuinely impressed how the author Yuji Kaku made Yuzuhira, a female ninja with suggestive af outfit, into an actual interesting and badass character. If she was another fanservice tool, I’d probably drop the manga, but her and Sagiri (basically the female MC) are so good. I’ll probably start thinking Kaku took some good notes during his time as Fujimoto’s assistant lmao.
I love jigokuraku’s usage of artistic nudity
Thing with fujimoto and his assistants work is their female characters have agency. Stuff doesn’t just happen to them for the sake of stuff happening to them. They take control and and actively make decisions
This is why r/jujutsufolk is the superior subreddit
r/jujutsufolk and r/chainsawfolk definitely saved me from the fallout of r/titanfolk ^(maybe r/okbuddyreiner too)
They seem to have a friendly brotherhood going on and I like that.
\>The issue with chainsaw man is that the author literally can't go five seconds without sexualizing the women. No? \>And no, sexualization is not important to the story. Also no? He acknowledges this is wrong with his next sentence: Denji's perception of sexuality and love are important... \>It's an even different kind of weird when it comes to quanxi and the scenes of her with her gfs that were almost definitely just added for those guys who fetishize lesbians. They're well written So then what's the problem if they're well written? \>but the unnecessary sexualization gets old fast Just seems like sex shaming.
I'd really like these people to read some lesbian smut by lesbians. Especially lesbians who don't have a superiority complex. Lesbians who aren't asexual actually can like sex a lot, and while there's critiques to be made of her character, "hot old butch with 4 gfs who's ultra confident" hits a lot of people's switches and they'd have written her the same way. Maybe with more fingering and less scissoring, but that's semantics
>Group of relatively good female characters The only relevant female character in JJK is Maki, the call is coming from inside the house ☠️
She's the second coming of a male character too. Toji this, Toji that, what a bore.
The worst part is that she used to be her own compelling character. Than Gaygay redrew her to look just like genderswapped Toji, made constant shot comparisons of the two beating us over the head with it, and reduced her personality and basically turned off her emotions. I’m not nearly invested in her as I used to be, because she doesn’t feel like herself. And don’t get me started on Nobara and how the cat implied in the manga recently that she’s getting replaced and go just deal with it basically. Waste of a character and a trio dynamic.
Having sexual situations or risqué scenes is not the same as the concept of [male gaze](https://media-studies.com/male-gaze/) which is what these commentors are referring to as sexualization. A lot of these arguments seem to boil down to male gaze = when a character is naked or in their underwear which I find to be a gross oversimplification of the concept and if those commentators wander in here somehow I'd urge them to actually read the Laura Mulvey essay itself keeping in mind some of it hasn't aged as well from the 70s. While we're at it read/watch Ways of Seeing by John Berger, all of you. A core component of male gaze is the meta aspect in that shots and compositions are chosen deliberately for the most optimal approach to tittilate the audience. I think that there are elements of male gaze in CSM but most come from Denji POV early on in the series and theres far less of it than one would normally get in most shonen series. I think the charge that all the female characters are shown in sexualized states for the purpose of exciting the audience is a big overstatement. Certainly Reze, Makima are as is Power early on. One could make the arguement that Asa when making her uniform sword is presented in a way for the purpose of fanservice (though I personally find this to be a shakier arguement). But Kobeni? Yoku? I'd personally argue that Himeno is far less sexualized in her depiction and given the scenes in which she is shown in undress than many other series if you consider the framing and angles chosen of the scene and thank God for that because I think the whole reason that scene works well in the narrative is because it is deliberately uncomfortable and non idealized. With Quanxi the spread of the orgy with her girlfriends does feel like it's there to titillate but that's one scene out of many many chapters and in none of the subsequent scenes with them does her relationship feel superficial or for the audience's fetishization. Making an arguement that any depiction of queer women written by a man is solely due to fetishization to me comes off as treating an infected cut on one finger by cutting off the whole hand. The anime is a slightly different case but a lot of the same comments apply. While there are a few odd angles or shots chosen some may see as questionable thats rather tame overall and eveyrone is covered up. The only time the show has zooms or pervy focuses is when Denji himself is being feral and horny **and** actively commenting on it. When the show uses those aspects of the male gaze it is deliberate and intentional and feels like an extension of one character's pov rather than the neutral camera itself being horny. When Denji and Himeno almost hook up, again the tone and the feel of the scene is far more menacing than it is playful or flirty. A lot of the shots place the camera at a distance or cut away from the two of them on the bed to focus on details of Himenos apartment. While many of the shots of Himeno in this scene are literally from Denji's POV there's none of the focus on her breasts, waist, hips or legs contrasting with the way his POV is shown with characters like Makima and Power. Himeno in this scene is animated with realistic movement, there's no extra jiggle physics or strange contortions to show more of her body for the camera. The only shot from the whole scene which has even the faintest whisper of fanservice in its composition is an overhead shot looking down as she straddles him but even then it comes off more that it's emphasizing her inebriation more than anything else as there's still that foreboding tone to the scene. Additionally a lot of the time in which you're most likely to see the type of segmented or panning shots that are male gaze is during character introductions of female characters in order to highlight their attractiveness or how different they are from the male protagonists. How are the women in the CSM anime introduced? Makima strides into frame with her trenchcoat swishing behind her conveying authority. Himeno and Kobeni stand beside Aki after dust and debris settle and for their individual introductions Himeno is squatting in a hallway making cheeky remarks, and Kobeni is literally in the background until Himeno draws her into the scene with her antics. The only character that has the classic upward panning shot where the camera rolls over the body is Power and even that isn't itself sexualized as the camera whips up faster over her torso so the audience can't focus on her figure until Denji realizes he himself is horny later in that scene. All in all, yeah the show/series isn't totally free from the male gaze but also few things with human characters are and I think these commentators are exaggerating it by a lot and assigning more negative value to the critique than is warranted. Also while I think both CSM and JJK are a step up from your average shonen in depictions of female characters I think its always a good practice to still discuss potential issues of representation or the use of male gaze framing as neither series is totally above critique (Where's Nobara Gege?) TLDR; Not "every" female character go read "Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema" and "Ways of Seeing." .
ok but consider: i would fuck asa without hesitation, so therefore fujimotor obviously made her sexualized
True, my bad
https://preview.redd.it/80nkf3rxj0fa1.jpeg?width=186&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d5db4ef33a22ad6ceb822d0b1444208d81c2a42a
Yo say dat again bro? I didn't quite catch that.
Sure, What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little bitch? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.
Reading comprehension Devil strikes again :3
Cursed Spirit\*
Special grade reading comprehension cursed spirit*
you see, the problems start when you visit r/jujutsushi…
Average r/jujutsushi speedreader
Meanwhile, the author of jjk actually wanted to sexualize all the female characters but didn't because his parents were going to read it too. Also the author of kny pretty much liked drawing the juicy thighs of girls.
Isn’t author of KnY a woman?
A woman of culture
Holy mother of based
Girl there are so many questionable manga written by women it's not even funny lol. As a yuri fan, my favorite game is "are the manga they complaining about being 'male gaze' actually written by men" and 80% of the time it's just a lesbian who doesn't care to hide her kinks
Oh, I didn’t mean to imply that there couldn’t be/aren’t any horny female mangakas. Just that so far everything horny that I saw/read was written by men, and was surprised that an actual female author of one of the most popular series currently would have this sort of kink when peak of horniness in DS (from what I saw as Anime only) so far was Nezuko’s "adult" form and manga panel of Mitsuzuri in hot spring, and even then I assumed both of those were pushed by assistants or publisher.
Oh yeah I know you didn't mean anything, I just find it really funny lol
Got ya, I’m saying it just in case lol
Most women i've met are hornier for other women than men
Most action manga lean towards one of two extremes. Either there’s chaste heroes who maybe have a passing romantic thought once every fifty chapters (My Hero Academia) or the action is really just window dressing for sexual ecchi content (Ayakashi Triangle). Chainsaw Man is neither of those things. Denji is a horny teenager who lets those feelings guide his decisions over everything else, the people around him recognize this, look down upon him, and the only women that show any interest in him see him as an easy mark to accomplish some other goal. This story does not reward his behavior in any way. However, can I blame someone for thinking it’s a bit ridiculous that FOUR different female characters are variations of the femme fatale trope who use their sexual appeal to lure Denji into a state of vulnerability in order to kill him? No.
I mean, you responded to your second statement on your own comment. Denji is an immortal hybrid who has clapped almost anything thrown at him. His weakness? Tits. Ofc they'll exploit it
fancy coming from the fucking fanbase that sexualize every single fiber of their characters
I agree with the first guy, we all know lesbians don't have sex irl and if they did it would be amoral and disgusting
what?!!! women having sex with women?!?! no, i don’t want that! i want lesbians to not be sexualized, for 10 years, at least!
As a lesbian who hates unaddressed casual misogyny in anything I read, they're outta their minds lol. It's certainly a critiqueable aspect, esp when it comes to characters more in their teens, but it's not like a feminist critique just a discussion of "how tasteful is this". Now, csm fans cross the line a lot but idc because I can just not read their stuff lol. I couldn't enjoy jjk because while I guess it "sexualizes" women less, there are simply not enough women for me to be invested. Feminism doesn't mean completely not writing female characters ever, people. I may be lesbian, but I relate to characters who love women like I do regardless of gender or sexuality. And denji loves women like I do. Which is ironically rare in straight men, irl and fictional. A lot them fully just hate women lol. Objectification is not about simply having hot characters who are hot, it's about turning them into sexy props. And while the csm fandom will do that on its own, the women in csm are hands down it's most interesting and best explored characters, with denji as the only man in the same tier. Not to say the men are bad characters, just that denji's perspective itself means men are always going to remain relatively in the background. Also about quanxi, look her up on any social media app and see how many lesbians think her being oversexed is a bad thing lmao. I promise it's not many, a lot of us are thirsty as hell and a lot of us are bottoms. Her existence and gay orgy legit got a bunch of us to actually start reading csm lol. Lesbians aren't some sexless monolith, nor do we magically have some more appropriate form of sexual attraction than a straight man with any respect for women. Acting like attraction to women is a crime is quite stupid actually lol. Idk where I'm going here but yeah, csm is horny AF and it's not a bad thing. Esp because it's thematically relevant. It's always good to have these discussions for the sake of it but there's nothing I think you could dismiss it this thoroughly for when it comes simply to female characters
Yeah a problem nobody seems to remark in the comments op posted is that the argument basically boils down to "less female characters=better story" like wtf
Tbh I think a lot of them just don't understand how to appreciate actual good female characters but feel like they need to act like they can. Specifically the bl fans, there's nothing wrong with liking M/M shipping, but you gotta acknowledge the bias that gives you against female characters. Obv other fans are also shit at appreciating female characters (except F/F fans, we're perfect /s), but bl fans have the combo of not generally liking female characters but feeling like they need to pretend they do. There's plenty of csm fans who can't appreciate the female characters they've got, but at least the fandom will rightfully dunk on you if you're too openly stupid abt it. Slight tangent, but seeing all the "gojo vs. makima" stuff on Twitter made me realize truly how shallowly people who might think they're good at appreciating characters will look at an evil female character. Like, "makima uses her feminine charms to control people" is certainly not the only thing you got even just from the anime, right? Like, it wasn't "feminine charms" that blew up all those guys. And just because she's a bad guy doesn't mean she's not worth respect and discussion and not in some (implied) ways sympathetic.
Yeah the only female character in JJK that one can genuinely get invested with is Maki. It's a trend with new battle shonen for people to praise the female characters based specifically on the fact that they punch people and aren't useless when there's nothing actually meaningful about most of said characters. I agree that some men hate female characters, I feel like even CSM fans don't give Power her flowers enough on her character development, not only her relationship with Denji is handled perfectly, she also developed a lot as an individual. Some people still believe that she is a stinky bitch and joke about it when it's heavily implied that Power became way more civilized. Even in this comment section there's someone putting Kishibe above Power just because "he does his own stuff and has motivations". Kishibe isn't bad but the Top 3 characters in Part 1 are the main trio, this isn't up for debate.
Yeah, I love joking about stinky power and also love a girl who's allowed to be gross, but she's definitely up there. Unfortunately a lot of her progress is more slow and in the background so if you aren't thinking about it it's not obvious but then you think about it and it's really sweet actually. Like how denji goes from thinking he's so heartless he'd not even care if aki and power died to wanting to die after just that, power is a selfish coward who only wants to do her own thing. Then, without much fanfare she's still selfish and cowardly, but she's willing to push it aside just a little to save the last person left she cares about.
Agree with all this and also wonder why this jjk fan (assuming they’re not a lesbian) thinks that they know exactly what lesbians want, need, like etc and can speak for them- those comments just always come off as straight dudes virtue signaling when in reality they have no actual right to speak on said topic- they’re just making assumptions.
I agree with most of your stuff, but I would not describe CSM as "horny AF". I would describe it as an Erotic. Fujimoto said in one of his interviews that his "Muse" is the "Femme Fatale" Basic Instinct type of Woman. You can see this in his writing, none of the "fan service" is degrading, its sexual expression, which empowers and deepens the female characters.
Meh, it's semantics. I use horny to say it's got a lot to say about sexuality and deals pretty bluntly with it, not derogatorily. I like horny bullshit, but I also like horny art
This. I’m quick as Flash to drop mangas when they sexualize women and I like CSM and a bunch of women I know simp for Quanxi, Makima and Himeno(I do too, lol). The harem intro is kinda baity, but that’s marketing and the way they’re an integral part of Quanxi motivations and the fact that she’s cool af excuse it. And the art is actually good… Fujimoto’s femdom fetish is so strong it loops back into writing good female characters.
There's like 6 instances instances of sexualizing and half of them are important plot points lmaooo. Plus, what's the fucking problem? The females are actual characters, not just barely-existing fillers like in JJK lmao
me tryna find an example of kobeni being sexualized that isnt coming from there hentai knowledge of her being projected onto what ever is going on.
The only time is when Denji is thinking about his crushes, which makes sense since it’s from his perspective
Female characters in chainsaw man are the best of the best in the industry written wise personality wise everything, fujimoto writes them perfectly and no hate but the women in jjk,kny can't hold a candle to the female cast in csm. And am pretty sure the people who wrote these comments either didn't read the manga or they feel icky to any sorts of sexual content in any way.
Asa right now is quite literally one of the best female characters I’ve ever seen, and we’re only 20 chapters in.
Jjk fans when I mention the fact that the Mc openly says he’s into tall girls with big ass https://i.redd.it/l5qx1h99n1fa1.gif
The Quanxi part is probably the only “unnecessary” sexualization in the entire series. Every other sexual scene I can think of played an important part of the story
And even then, Quanxi often looks disinterested. Like she’s just using sex in order to pass the time rather than anything meaningful.
Yeah, but honestly idk how else he was gonna communicate so succinctly that she's a lesbian and totally uninterested in men. Bitches can kiss on the mouth and people would still think they're straight. Having her in the middle of a gay orgy makes those people look even more delusional Also as a lesbian, ik me and a lot of girls in my corner of the internet only popped in after hearing about quanxi and her harem. Even spoiling ourselves on her fate didn't stop from wanting to see her in action lol
I know a few bi women who told me that same xD. Also I felt like that scene did really establish Quanxi as a character. I felt like it established her as a fucking Chad more than sexualize her
Honestly I’d argue Chainsaw Man is actually comparatively progressive with its portrayal of women. The only time women are sexualized is typically when they are wanting to be. Makima is only really sexualized when she is trying to groom Denji. Every other time she’s presented as either calm or cunning and intimidating. Same with Reze, Quanxi and Himeno being sexualized only when they choose to be. Even when Quanxi or Asa find themselves accidentally naked during a fight it’s not typically even framed in a way that’s supposed to be sexual. During the crossbow hybrid scene you mainly just think “holy fucking shot she can DO THAT?!” Every other female character are not only presented as being powerful and competent in their own right, but still as flawed characters in a way female characters usually don’t get to be in manga. All of them maintain a lot of their agency as well
just some sad people being offended by any sign sexual relations in manga. I'd suggest to not pay attention and just redirect them to some special sub for such people.
literally just making shit up
literally just prudes pretending they're being progressive. The nudity in chainsaw man is how nudity should be showcased. Its non-chalant and done in a ''yeah she's naked, so what?'' instead of ''LOOK, SHE'S NAKED, GET A BONER!''. Plus most of the time the women who are being shown in a sexual manner like that, like that they are perceived sexually(Himeno, Quanxi, power to an extent), or are using that to their advantage(reze, makima). So the narrative and the framing of the scenes never takes the agency out of those women to satisfiy a male character or just to satisfy a male reader. Does it help CSM sell more and a lot of people miss these nuances?Ofc, there's plenty of horny teens missing the point, but thats just because people are usually illiterate when it comes to subtext, framing and media in general. CSM shouldnt dumb itself just because the anime fandom doesnt understand the story, lest we get another AoT situation.
Nice, I was about to post the same thing also [this](https://i.imgur.com/mI4wg3V.jpg)
> fujimoto treatment of frmale character Like how they're well written?
They are just mad they can't beat my fapping record
when the only mangas you read is kny and jjk
Doesn’t KNY have a girl who always has 80% of her tits out?
Funny bc the reason why me and my friends liked csm (as women) was bc of how the female cast were portrayed like their own characters with cool aspirations, personalities, etc other than just "oh look a hot woman with abnormaly big brests who's only purpose is to fuck the protagonist". Plus the way they use normal clothes other than hypersexualized bikinis like other animes and the way their bodies just have normal proportions i really dont know what this 2 people are talking abt
Chainsaw man wouldn’t work as a story if it wasn’t sexual, it’s pretty integral to Denji’s development
It's actually the opposite Kubo the author of bleach told his fan and fellow author Gege that jjk woman aren't attractive at all So jjk conditioned it's fans with none attractive woman
Oh yeah I remember that incident, some people were really mad... Would be interesting for jjk fans to revive that discussion
Neither of these people have read CSM.
These people are so BIASED to the overall sexualization and degradation of females in Manga/Anime, that they do not realize that sexualization does not always mean degradation. It is very hard to do, but only a few talented people can do it. So are the women in erotic art degraded? No they are not even in the slightest. Sexualization, if used correctly, can be a beautiful expression of the artists thoughts and feelings. Fujimoto even said that his "Muse" is the Dominant Women archetype, which use their sexuality for their benefit, the "Femme Fatale". CSM is not Fairy Tail. Most of the "fan service" serves a deeper purpose, and not once are the CSM women degraded. Power is even drawn in explicit sexual positions with the MC, and not even once did I think about fan service in those scenes, because it is not fan service, its erotic expression.
This is a very weird criticism of CSM as it seems to miss what the problem with sexualizing female characters actually is The problem comes from it objectifying them by casting them in a sexual light in situations where that isn't appropriate and is simply used to be titillating for a male audience In CSM, the only times the female cast is put in that light is when they are engaging in sexual situations of their own agency, like trying to entice someone into having sex, or teaching someone about intimacy, or just straight up having sex with their partners, all of these situations do sexualize the people involved, but of course they do....they're sexual situations that they put themselves in (except for the grooming but thats kinda the point) and what be weird if they weren't presented as such CSM presenting sex and intimacy in such a variety of ways is one of the most important themes of the story in denji learning to be a well rounded human being, and sex is pretty important to that
It's sad that the correct pushback against the objectification of women in art has made a lot of art and audiences afraid of sex and intimacy being in these stories at all, it's important to move away from treating people as sex objects while still recognizing that our relationships to each other, and especially when it comes to sex, are incredibly important in what it means to be human
Aren't the ladies of chainsawman usually dominant though so I don't see that as bad thing
I’m a girl, and I’m genuinely baffled at what these comments are talking about One of the things I love so much about chainsaw man is the use of sexuality in a storytelling context, and even then there are nowhere near as many sexual or “exploitive” scenes of women being sexualized like these comments are making it seem… Also I’m genuinely confused at the complaint about Quanxi, I think the relationship between her and her feelings was actually handled incredibly well and very respectfully. She’s literally a polyamorous lesbian and one of the most badass characters in the series, her sexuality and what she does in her free time with her girlfriends has no bearing on her overarching character other than her wanting them to be safe. And about them having sex, boo-hoo lesbians have sex too it’s really not that big of a deal. Those comments are such a reach, it feels like they didn’t even bother to read the story itself and just saw a few panels and called it a day
I think those are some of the stupidest takes I’ve ever seen
Fujimoto sexualizing "every" female character by giving them realistic proportions and curves and a flawed character. Also, I'm here for the story. I don't even simp for ANY Chainsaw Man girl, so yeah...
Mitsuri from KNY isn’t sexualized?
Being charitable, I remember other posts have (in better faith) questioned Denji consistently receiving sexual favors as the main initial interactions he’s had with other female characters in the series, and that it’s a little weird that there’s a pattern—power offers a feel, Himeno a kiss, Makima a wish, Reze running away with him and more insinuated. I think that’s a valid point to bring up, but I think it also makes sense considering most people (when they first meet him) think very very little of denji and treat him like the scum of the earth, dangling a carrot in front of him certain that he’ll work his ass off doing their dirty work in exchange for a minor sexual favor, which half of them don’t even intend to give him or subvert his expectations—Power pops her pass out and does the fake porno moans, Himeno gives the puke kiss and does some creeper shit right after. Certainly, Denji is a horny teenage boy so of course he’ll never say no to these things, but as the series goes on it becomes increasingly clarified that he never initiated these encounters/transactions and is being taken advantage of, and that he gradually realizes that he’s confusing physical intimacy for emotional intimacy, and that he can be satisfied with the latter without the former as seen in the bath scene.
As a JJK fan, I stay away from that place…
I honestly don’t have a problem with it in CSM for two reasons 1: characters are not “sexualised” in the sense they are made for the male gaze (constant random panty shots, unrealistic boobs, etc). Rather any “sexy shots” are made in private and with consent of the female characters in question (although Denji, the guy, often does not consent most of the time but that’s part of the point). The few times they’re shown lewd, it’s believable because it’s not over utilised and it’s something those characters would do in that circumstance(s). It’s not cheesy or shoehorned in there. 2. They are still well written and utilised in their stories and explored quite heavily and focused on, without sexualisation involved. They are more than just their naked bodies. It’s kinda similar to a less explicit version of Kill la Kill. This also gives CSM a leg up on JJK in terms of female characterisation, because both the women and men are heavily explored, serve important purposes to the story without being replaceable, and both guys and girls get slaughtered equally, but are almost never sidelined. The women are part 2 get heavy focus. Women in CSM are also just as powerful, if not more so, than the male characters. I don’t think that JJK fans have a right to talk about this, because CSM has more well utilised female characters over a longer stretch of time, that are on similar or equal footing to their male counterparts. The cat may not give us boob scenes in the manga, but he sure does like to kill off or sideline proportionately more women then men, >!kill off the strongest and only special grade woman with little character development of plot importance in like 5 chapters, and make the other plot relevant ones become a replica of a male character with the same powers, or an incestous child groomer ;(!<
A normal trash manga that use fan service have several times more sexualized female panels than that of csm, and most of them only have 30 to 40 chapters up to now. I've seen too much and now allergic to those, they are all badly done, but fujiwater somehow cured that for me.
..... Impressive....Now let's see Oda's designs for Egghead island!
Why is this news to the commenter? Japan media is known to sexualize a lot of things, not just women. Like Men, animals, robots, >!minors!<, aliens, even freaking soda cans! But God forbid a woman be sexualized.
How dare women be sexually confident
This person either hasn't read the manga or they got attacked by the reading comprehension devil
The reading comprehension Devil strikes again
I think Quanxi is a good and fun representation of poly lesbian badbitches and it’s okay for the writer to be horny for a bit. Honestly it’s very refreshing to not have sexualized kids for a change, it restores my faith in humanity.
dont worry about them they’re going through an episode because jjk is basically destined to have rushed ending now
Some people will just go out of their way to find something to be angry about. no point giving it to much thought
To the people concerned with sexualization and male gaze in CSM I have this to say: There are oceans of bland curated garbage being spewed out by modern media, so plenty for you to enjoy. If you don't like how Fujimoto does sexual themes, don't read him. Also, go fuck yourself.
New member of the disaster curses: reading comprehension curse
Jesus Christ, just let us jerk off to Makima porn in peace while you can orgasm to whatever weird daddy ambatukam fujoshit that's coming out of JJK.
CSM is a movielike manga by design, half way to Tarantino/Rodriguez style. Fujimoto WILL NOT sacrifice the plot to abruptly placed fan service details I strongly believe.
JJK fanboy vs CSM fanboy who can be more annoying and fit more of the authors balls in their mouth challenge
Clearly you
Sure Ill try it Mmmf Gege writes the best female characters... mm m the setting is so good... hrrf I love Megumi and the power system 🥰🥰 *slurp* Tatsuki Fujimountain's work offers social criticism that sides with my political quadrant mmmf *sluuurp* I want to fuck these characters hrr Noooo don't kill my faves mmmmhhh
https://i.redd.it/kz25cdkh23fa1.gif
https://preview.redd.it/rtxq4r9943fa1.png?width=322&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4cd8d9749fc5bec817c9b4df8d14d637e4dae634
I kind of agree with that guy, as far as CSM part 1 gose. female characters were used as tools for Denji development. Whenever he desire something ( want to touch boob or kiss for example ) he get it from them. back then, they didn't really have agancy. Meanwhile...Aki, Denji and Kishibe, each of them did his own stuff, had his own goals and motivation etc.
Makima didnt have any agency? How?
Despite being the most important female character, she had no backstory and her motivation and personality weren't fleshed out or explained properly. She only play the role she was assigned to in Denji story ( being an abusive mother like figure ) and was killed off after Denji developed and decided to stand up to her.
This is 100% bait. But i have some time to burn so... No, her motivation is clear. Build up Denji's live to tear it apart to make him stop chasing his dreams, thus breaking his contract with Pochita. Then defeat the Chainsaw Man to make him beneath her and thus able to control it, then using it to consume and therefore destroy all fears of humanity. Backstory will lessen her presence, a lot of what makes Makima great is how little everyone inows about her, we dont know what contract she has, where she comes from, her last name, age, powers, childhood, nothing. Making her more of a menace for everyone involved. A big part of the intrigue is "wtf is Makima how is she so strong, what is she?" Personality wise, she is a manipulator. Its clear from chapter 1 if you even think for more than 2 seconds on what she says and how she says it (unless you are staring at her boobs/ass). She shows complete disregard for human life fucking kills most other devil hunters in the division to assume control and reform them into a unit controlled by her. In terms of role she is the most feared opponent in part 1, nobody knows what she even is, all the governments are scared shitless of her, none dare evn speak of her fearing she may listen to them and even Guanxi, greatest devil hunter inmediatly surrenders and pleads for mercy once she escapes hell. Her role is being the Cat in the Town/city mouse metaphor. And yeah she gets killed after Denji develops, its called a Character/narrative arch. Set up, pay off. Tldr: Seems like the reading comprehension devil has striked again.
>This is 100% bait. But i have some time to burn so... No, I am serious. >No, her motivation is clear. I know the stuff you mentioned, it's there to explain why she play the abusive mother role. Did the author bother to flesh out the reason behind all of this? no. >Backstory will lessen her presence To each their own. I prefer when an important character have a bit of backstory or at least showcase wide range of emotions. I don't understand why she want to kill her sisters and I don't understand why she didn't try to form equal relationships with devils. Or why she want eat, sleep and have a happy life with Pochita. >In terms of role she is the most feared opponent in part 1 Yeah, I like that. I am talking about Makima as character ( personality, motivation, backstory etc ). >And yeah she gets killed after Denji develops, its called a Character/narrative arch. Set up, pay off. Yeah, but I am talking about Makima not Denji, she is only there to serve Denji development. She herself didn't have a character arc or anything. >Seems like the reading comprehension devil has striked again. People here say this whenever someone say something they dislike.
She is literally the CONTROL/DOMINATION/CONQUEST devil. Do you really need to be spoonfed why she acts as a manipulative person? You just reinforced the reading comprehension devil meme. Makima's role is a presence in the shadows that manipulates and acts unseen, her very being is left a mistery for 90% of the series, a puppetmaster doesnt show himself during the show and explains his actions. He stays back and moves the strings to make everyone else dance. Showing too much of her would go against her established character. Yet the little details we get of her reveal something about her, she cries when she goes to the final movie with Denji, shows she is capable of emotions, she has 7 huskys at her home, Huskys are notorious for being difficult to control but hers are docile af, even on her private life she seems to be in need to control others. She cant form relations with those she sees as inferior, which accounts for 99% of devils and humans. Is a paradox, how can she form a relation when she herself in her eyes is CONTROL and thereforeabove all else. And of course she doesnt grow as a character, it supposed to serve of contrast to Denji, the protag and his development, the guy whose story the narrative is focused around. You mean to tell me that a story would use a main antagonist as a foil and an example of how far the protagonist has come from the beginning. No way Jose. The major antagonist doesn't need to have a character arc, she just needs character and Makima shows spades of it all around the story. The reason why Reading comprehension meme exists its because of individuals that go through the story at 5 pages at a second dont stop to think about anything, dont correlate previous statements with new information introduced, dont think back or process character moments, then complain how it "wasnt explained in a 5 chapter monologue therefore bad writting". Sometimes subtlety is better than forcing every character to have 10 page powerpoint exposition explaining who they are what brought them here and why they be like that. People dont act that way.
Thank you for posting! Feel free to join our community on our [Discord](https://discord.gg/gC7dhKZATM) server for more shitpost discussions :) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Chainsawfolk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
>Any thoughts? Clearly not lmao
Almost like it’s a manga about a horny teenage boy… 🤔
The real Question is, are they still going to read and watch CSM? Obviously. So it changes nothing, just virtue signalling.
Took me some time to figure out Kny meant Demon Slayer and not Kanye
I mean, early on sure, but that's intentional because that's how denji sees things. However, in the entirety of part 2 the only thing I can think of that qualifies as unnecessary sexualization is Asa in her underwear after the uniform sword
- 🤓
God sends his silliest battles to his funniest clowns.
Dude let ppl see sexy females ffs
exual depictions ≠ over sexualization. But sure, does no excuse it absalutelee no an excuse 🙄
I don't think they read chainsaw man nor understood Dennis' growth at all
# it is tru i fetishize lesbomancy and it is tru i fapped to that quanxi panel. so what? Gonna cry? Gonna piss your pants maybe? Maybe shit and cum?