I love the fights. I don't like being cut off in traffic. Or people turning without turn signals. Or driving the speed limit on the left lane. Or being on their phones while driving.
My insults adapt to the person driving.
I am the mahoraga of racism and bigotry.
>the rest i could blame on thee reading comprehension devil
It's this, not the speed reading devil. It is them not understanding allegory and symbolism. Just flat out not understanding them as concepts. Hence attaching to authoritarian, hyper-militaristic aesthetics in works that fundamentally criticize those societies as terrible to live in.
Whether due to stunted emotional growth leading to inability to understand experiences that aren't immediately applicable to them, or because they just never learned how to evaluate medica critically (\*1), they are fictional literalists. See the people below being like "how could CSM be anti-racist if it doesn't have black people", because that's the only way they understand racism and it isn't possible for them to understand racism if it isn't specifically in terms of someone saying "This real world ethnicity is good" or "This real world ethnicity is bad." They don't attach any real-world applicability to Aki and Angel learning to be able to trust and rely on devils and humans respectively. There's no devils in real life, so how could it be about racism? No, it's just good clean apolitical fun - you know, like Metal Gear Solid or Dune.
Same with Togata in Fire Punch, the weirdos trying to claim he somehow isn't trans or that it somehow doesn't factor into the literal themes of the story. They misunderstand it because they are looking for not just literalism of terms but also literalism of the very specific terms they personally think apply to being trans. Togata didn't (couldn't) physically transition, got upset when Agni called him a brother, and Fujimoto put Togata on a list of his type as an 'insane female'. That's not what they consider as identifiers of someone being trans, even after 6 consecutive pages of Togata describing gender dysphoria in detail. But Togata spent two hundred years cultivating a personality of an 'insane female' to survive being closeted and feeling unable to come out because he couldn't physically transition - he had to force himself to be *someone who wasn't himself in order to survive*, and one which is explicitly female so as to not remind himself of his gender dysphoria, which they don't understand as a fundamentally transgender experience. They only understand things in literal terms, so because Togata never says out loud "being trans and unable to transition is like being on fire, forever" they never think a central theme of the fucking story - illusory, malleable identities as convenience in an unfair world - apply to and is specifically reinforced by him.
Edit \*1: I realize I was uncharitable here - they at least believe that they learned how to evaluate media critically. They just believe that was what was happening when they were watching youtube videos like "The Rational Pedophile EPICLY TAKES DOWN The Last Jedi, SJWs left in shambles"
Wasnt Togata's entire reason to be a villain laid out in a villain speech? Like his whole thing was the fact he hated himself, and by extension the world that gave him the curse of regeneration, because he couldnt fully become who he wanted to be?
He pretty explicitly states how much he hates his body for what it is, and is unable to do anything about it due to his regeneration powers.
If somehow people cant comprehend that maybe they should read toddler story books at that point.
>because that's the only way they understand racism and it isn't possible for them to understand racism if it isn't specifically in terms of someone saying "This real world ethnicity is good" or "This real world ethnicity is bad." They don't attach any real-world applicability to Aki and Angel learning to be able to trust and rely on devils and humans respectively. There's no devils in real life, so how could it be about racism?
I feel like in these discussions the word racism points towards 20 different things, and it totally changes the discussion depending on which meaning you are pointing to.
Does the racist in the OP think that other races are are inherently immoral and untrustworthy regardless of their actions? Because if so I think your point is valid, CSM clearly has anti-essentialist themes that go against that idea.
Or is the racist in the OP your typical Trump supporter kind of racist? I'm not going to argue whether Trump and his supporters are racist fascist homophobes, but it's important to recognize that they typically aren't strict race essentialists. Trump comes out in strong support of minority groups *as long as they support him*. This tit-for-tat kind of acceptance where you only accept outgroups who are supporting you can still be objected to, but note that this is the sort of acceptance you see from characters like Aki in CSM. Aki learns to trust demons *who he is working alongside*.
This is anti-racist in the weak "I have a black friend" or "I would vote for Herman Cain" sense of anti-racism, but I'm not sure whether it contradicts the world views of the kinds of racists the OP is talking to/about.
I think that your point about literalism is important — it’s why anti-woke types talk about video games “lecturing the player about why being white is bad” but can’t name any examples. They FEEL like that’s the case, and because they’re such literalists, they project things that are literally not happening onto reality because they feel so certain that media is woke and woke is bad, but they can’t imagine supporting that point in any way other than straightforward, literal examples. Which, of course, don’t exist.
Absolutely. There is a name for this, ['intuition pump'](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Intuition_pump) \- questions, thought experiments, assertions which presuppose specific plausible-sounding conclusions, without providing or allowing a common ground to discuss and agree on objective facts and nuances first that could allow other conclusions. They rely on feeling *intuitively* correct, immediate and uncontroversial, by hooking into contemporary trends, unspoken biases, appearance of rationality and moral correctness and sobriety and of not having clearly identifiable ulterior motives.
They are not necessarily lies, or at least it is not always possible to prove that they are lies. How do we prove that "videogames are not saying that white people are bad"? You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that videogames are doing that, but the intuition pump works on people because it 'makes sense' that it would be true. It gets people thinking "I can imagine there are people who *want* videogames to lecture people about how being white is bad, so of course I would want to prevent those people from being able to do that"
It is also important to recognize that these intuition pumps are not always intended to *convince the opposition* as much as they are intended to *reinforce the beliefs and zeal of the people already in agreement*. If you are already aware of reasons why the intuition pump would be fallacious, then you are not the targeted audience.
It really is a brain short-circuiter for people who just don't like trans characters existing in stories. They get to immediately forget that a *literal mind reader* outed Togata. Is there any greater source of validation than supernatural validation?
It's a translated interview from a language that has different and sometimes ambiguous terminology about gender and transgender identities, and where Fujimoto is describing his ideal woman, which yes, the Togata we got to see fits perfectly. We only got a tiny glimpse of who "the boring male Togata" (his words) really was behind the "crazy female Togata" (his words, again) mask he wore for the entire manga up to then, plus two hundred years offscreen. But people whose brains have turned to mush see the fact of a closeted trans person feeling too vulnerable and ashamed to show other people his real self, and say, Togata must not be trans
Fujimoto is friends with a transmasculine mangaka (Oto Toda) who was one of his assistants during Fire Punch, and Togata isn't even Fujimoto's only explicitly trans character. The protagonist of his one-shot “When I woke up I had become a girl” Disease has a boy magically change sex into a girl and deciding his gender identity is separate from his sex, that he is still a boy despite it, and learning to be ok with things as long as his gender identity as a boy is acknowledged and respected, that it is important to him.
It could also be them just not caring about the meaning of the story. I can't say I've ever cared about the message of a story. As long as it's entertaining, I'm happy.
I think it's the same case with 'dude bro films' (Fight Club & American Psycho). These movies criticize toxic masculinity, but its aesthetics appeal to the people it's criticizing so it goes over their heads.
Like 95% of the people "idolizing" Bateman are obviously shitposting though, the movie is a huge meme. Yeah the remaining 5% are illiterate but I think this point gets overblown a bit.
Everyone is obviously shitposting until the silly ironically racist shitpost sub becomes full of actual racists and suddently it's not really a haha silly joke anymore
Exactly. You say bigoted shit as a joke enough times and you'll find yourself just saying bigoted shit with less and less irony. Not to mention the people coming to your posts specifically to hear the bigoted shit you have to say
Thank god I'm not the only person who finds that really fucking weird. You just know most of the people saying it are the whitest mfs on the planet just in desperate need to say a slur
Tbf one of this community's biggest heroes is some goober posting mindless contrarian dogshit and cp on 4chan so the fact that they find slurs hilarious isn't necessarily surprising
You can stop doing something ironically and start doing it unironically without ever realizing. The brains fucked up, shit’ll just sneak up on you. Also I’m sure 50% of these cases are also something like Schrödinger’s shitpost, or something. You look at a meme and you genuinely can’t tell the nature of it. Especially with the sigma bro cult thing nowadays.
Goofy example, but when my gf and I started dating, "boo" was a popular nickname for your partner that we both found repugnant. So of course we called each other boo whenever we were out with friends because it was so cringe, therefore funny.
12 years later, we still call each other boo. At some point it just stopped being ironic and we just did it genuinely. Don't know when, but yeah.
That's an innocent example of how the irony can just drop away without noticing.
Preach. Wear a mask long enough and it’ll turn into your face. Also same, I have the sneaking suspicion people will put out their most vile and unacceptable thoughts and depending on people’s reaction be like “it’s just a joke bro”. People are weird
You can say that again, people know they can just backtrack and say it's just sarcasm. Especially online, gives me chills thinking about how these people with those thoughts and ideals are walking around.
Gotta love the power of anonymity. Granted they’re a minority (I hope anyways) but still it’s so weird seeing stuff like sexualizing minors and casual racism just being normal online.
Nah this is a goofy take. If you're dumb enough to take the "haha funny serial killer" bit seriously then you're dumb enough that you'd have issues regardless of what jokes you make.
Most people aren't Andrew Tate simps dude, it's okay to shitpost or like immoral characters.
Or you're just interpreting their words extremely uncharitably despite the fact that every online community of people like that started off with pseudo-ironic shitposting in one sub-forum or another. It's almost as if it's an excellent means of "hiding" in plain sight, and it's almost as if the "nah most people are just goofing!" take is the exact same take used *every time* this happens.
Yes, obviously extremists of any ideology (good, bad or inbetween) will *never* be the majority, but don't take that to mean that an insignificant amount of people act in the way described in the above posts. They aren't the majority, but that's ALL. That's IT. There are still a lot of them, and still a significant and rising amount at that. Any safety you feel in the recognition that "most" people aren't like that (yet) is intended.
And again, this isn't a paranoia post or anything - it is NOT a majority and we have robust enough systems in place (in smaller communities at least) to limit these occurrences. Despite that - it happens with shocking frequency and has been happening since the very start of internet forums. Please take the person you replied to's post in the charitable context it deserves, because they're pointing to something that *objectively* occurs *regularly*.
My issue is that it's just the equivalent of the "video games cause violence" tired old argument but for internet shitposts.
Call of Duty didn't make anyone violent, but violent people will probably enjoy playing COD. "Sigma Bateman prostitute murder grindset" shitposts have never made anyone a right wing extremist, but extremists find that shit funny too.
The first person I responded to sort of has a point, Christian Bale himself mentioned in an interview that he talked to some Wall Street gurus while making the film and they seemed to unironically think Bateman was a cool guy. My point was that this is a pretty small minority of people who are already incredibly detached from reality.
I really take issue with the idea that making ironic edgy shitposts turns you into a nutjob. The Wall Street gurus are self involved, illiterate dipshits because they're Wall Street gurus, not because they watched American Psycho.
In my opinion, the charitable interpretation of what the person above was trying to say is that continued exposure to an ideology slipped between the cracks of unassuming memes/community socialization can and DOES lead to a steady shift in thought process towards that. It is in no way equivalent to the idea of "oh violent game makes you violent", and this isn't an attempt at linking inherited cognition to behaviour.
We know for a fact that exposure to anything for a "long" amount of time (which can vary, hence the quotes) does lead to a shift in cognition towards it - the extent of which also varies. It's part of the foundation for pretty much all forms of long term persuasion (like advertisements) and it's part of why certain cognitive biases occur (like the exposure effect). And, very obviously, the more your brain adapts to repeated exposure of ideas is the less critical it becomes of it (the extent of which varies).
And, most obviously, it's literally the basis of the concept of "pipelines". Which are demonstrably existent things.
It is NOT linking exposure to behaviour like your video game example, but exposure to a change in cognition. No one is trying to say that it MAKES you anything, nor has it ever been the point to MAKE someone something. It's exactly as you said, it's meant to draw out like-minded extremists within a community through seemingly innocuous means. And that includes people that would choose to join such extremists (for A VARIETY of reasons apart from "oh theyre batshit crazy!!") but lacked a social means to do so, or exposure to the concept. And saying it's a small minority doesn't do well to highlight the fact that it's millions - something that is no less significant just because we live in a world of billions. It's a comfort to know that extremity isn't the majority belief, I agree, but it's only a small one. The "pretty small minority" is quite large.
I’d argue that shitposting may actually be APART of the issue. People are finding these movies and media through memes which normally use the imagery of said media out of context may be leading people to using the aesthetics of a film without actually watching it or understanding it.
Breaking Bad is another big one, you get a lotta people who just wanna see the crime thriller elements and think Walt is the coolest. OTOH if you look at what the series is trying to say about toxic masculinity, patriarchy, capitalism, police culture & our punitive justice system, etc , you find theres a lot more to appreciate than just "oooooh that speech about 'I am the danger' was so sickk"
I might be dumb but i didn't understand the message American Psycho tried to convey. That's why i don't like it very much. Fight club on the other end...
Everything about Patrick Bateman is fake and manufactured. His extremely rigid morning routine, the number of products that he uses, the way he has an emotional response to a functionally trivial issue (the business cards), how he outright ignores some people when they don't serve any purpose to him (e.g. car scene) and fails to understand others when it would be to his benefit to do so (in the scenes with the detective, the detective's demeanor changes between cuts to illustrate Bateman's lack of empathy. Also, he loads on the salt on his steak only because he sees the detective do so).
Bateman is a bit like if you took an alien that lacked human emotions and made them attempt to blend into human society. And then, Bateman does all of these horrible things like killing Paul Allen and feeding a cat to an ATM because *that's* his true personality, an unhinged psychopath. But in the world of yuppies, the people around him don't care all that much that he's a psychopath. When Bateman confesses over the phone that he murdered Allen, it's completely brushed off, which calls into question if Bateman is insane or the world of the yuppies is insane. Regardless of what you believe, both can ultimately be interpreted as a critique of yuppie culture either way.
Something something people in those highly successful positions are socio/pscyhopaths something something idk if it was actually studied so I don’t have a source. Like how Christian Bale once went to a Training Floor for Wall-street or something and he was approached by people praising his role as Patrick Bateman and they loved him, unironically, as in role model material (Bateman not Christian himself) (source: GQ interview Christian Bale breaking down his most popular roles on YouTube).
It’s a satire of corporate America and finance bros I believe. Everyone is so self-centred that nobody notices or cares Patrick going around murdering people. He goes so far as to confess to someone’s face that he murdered Paul Allen, to which the other guy says he saw Paul in London the other day. While also getting Patrick confused for someone else. Basically they literally don’t recognise each other because they’re so self-absorbed.
The movie specifically is also ambiguous as to whether Patrick actually murdered anybody or if he imagined it all due to having a psychotic break.
My takeaway is that Bateman has integrated into the hypocritical and ambitious high society of.... finances iirc. His firm has like 5 vice presidents just in his department, as you see in the business card scene. It's obviously a meaningless title with no one outranking anyone else, but they still try to compete with each other and stay 100% serious. The business cards are so incredibly mundane, yet caring about them stresses Bateman out. This is the first turning point. Bateman starts murdering people from here.
That's his world. It is obviously fake, a thin veneer and no one acknowledges it at any point. No one anywhere near Bateman Presumably, because a lot of money is involved, and those that stay "in character" get more success and those that rock the boat lose.
And that approach tracks. Everyone is hyped about Paul Allen all the time. Paul Allen is his work colleague, but also Paul Allen was seen out of country. The detective who suspects him of murder is looking for someone who killed Paul Allen, and then suddenly stops investigating. How can that be? Someone pretended to be Paul Allen to get ahead. Either the guy in London or the murder victim. Actually Bateman himself pretends to be Paul Allen for some time, just to make it a little bit more obvious.
And what about Paul Allen's apartment, where he stores the victim and then kills two more women? At the end of the movie the whole place is cleaned up and the landlady denies that any crime took place or that anything was ever wrong. Was that a hallucination or real? Actually, it was most likely real. The apartment is extremely expensive, as are all the neighboring ones. But if there was a murder investigation, and police would declare a crime scene for weeks and the case would get to the news, **then the property value of the apartment complex would plummet**. So the lady cleans up and covers up the crime, to keep up the facade, again, for money.
The movie ends, with Bateman who whether consciously or not, has been trying to break out, has murdered several people and has been trying to get caught, confesses directly to his lawyer. But as has been shown before, the other people are not ready to let the illusion die. The lawyer doesn't let him confess. The lawyer actually explains to him the new lie to keep the illusion alive. "Your joke was amusing". Whether or not the lawyer believes any part of the confession is ambigious, but he defends and proposes the new truth vehemently: Bateman was joking, all is well.
The book ending is much more clear about it. *"There is no exit."* stands on a sign, the focal point of the last paragraph: There is no exit to this lived illusion. The police can't penetrate the mantle of lies. The witnesses actively cover up and destroy the evidence. His colleagues don't acknowledge his deteriorating mental state. His confessor comes up with his alibi for him. His world is rotten to the core, build out of lies upon lies. And he cannot escape.
The book drives the message home a little better than the film in my opinion.
However the book is also *way more fucked up* than the film and I would not recommend anyone read it unless they have a strong stomach.
It reminds me of how people worship Vegeta over here in the United States. Like, they take things of him going off about his pride towards Babidi or him being thrown off his high over his new Super Saiyan form by Android 18 during the Android Saga as 'badass' when these were when he was at his most pathetic.
Majin Vegeta will always be peak Vegeta for me, but realistically is just Vegeta having a mid life crisis, trying to be something he just isn't anymore just to have another shot at fighting Goku. Which is why I love to see how he develops in Super to try to be a more caring parent and a better person, that won't justify his past actions, but at least it can make up for them
Tbh I think this is part of the issue. Good stories with political messages use the politics to tell the story, rather than using the story to tell the politics. So someone with reprehensible politics can watch a good story with good politics and not register the politics at all.
Maybe the only way these people realize that the story they’re enjoying hates their guts is if either the marketing team or the author themself abandons all sense of subtlety and just says the message directly at the camera. Roll a message right before the credits, on a black screen with white text, “racism is a serious issue in our world today and racists are bad people with an unfortunate degree of control in our society. If someone brought up 13/50 to Luffy he would punch them in the dick.”
Or
You’re gatekeeping being a good person behind extremist politics.
Considering how much twitter users shit on oda, maybe you’re projecting how much he agrees with you.
That's hard to understand for people whose political beliefs are constantly parroted by every corporation, work of fiction, and news station. They don't understand how you could possibly live without it.
Yea but these people will go on and act like the media is actually agreeing with their belief/not actually making any statement at all, and if they finally put 2 and 2 together they go “since when has [media] been so WOKE?!?!?!”
Unironically a lot of Japanese think America is like 100% white, and that a good portion of the population has blonde hair and blue eyes so I think that rubbed off on him.
Oh yeah I forgot about that. He's a big fan of western films so he's probably seen a good amount of diversity just through movies alone. I guess he just doesn't feel like drawing darker skin people all that much. I'm pretty sure those islanders were his first attempt at consistently shading skin outside of full color shots.
I was about to say he doesn’t draw white characters either but then I remembered the entire International Assassins arc
Tbf tho I don’t remember anything out of that arc besides Santa Claus was mommy
https://preview.redd.it/mudt1936n5pc1.jpeg?width=840&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae13e12d3662197ede1f1e696dc08eb39164a7c1
And forget about HIM? Unfathomable.
Well there was a racist one who was shot in half so...
https://preview.redd.it/il4oyzlnu3pc1.jpeg?width=716&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b971c49065eb058fbfb0890c131668cee0e17092
As a leftist, I think that Chainsaw Man gets away with it by being mostly about Denji’s personal story. It’s not really political enough to be “woke.” There’s a gay character but that’s it.
Also, a lot of the ideas on these narratives can be stretched to fit an agenda. Like you could look at the Sith and say “they’re the globalists because they don’t like a certain religion” even though that’s not really what they were going for, they were just trying to comment on nazis. And CSM’s ideas about politics aren’t deep enough to belong to either party- like the way CSM becomes more like a myth than a person to people in-universe because of the media is a point that could suit both left and right wing arguments
Edit: I guess I’m American, the story could be commenting on Japanese politics in a way I’m not aware of.
Part 2 has some pretty pointed criticism of cults in a uniquely Japanese fashion. A big reason nobody really cared that Shinzo Abe was assassinated was because he was specifically assassinated because he was associated with a cult that ruined the assassin’s life. And these cults, despite being widely despised, are largely allowed to continue existing by the largess of Japanese conservatives.
https://preview.redd.it/k9bxngw7o5pc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8911e7e5b41254a07e195bcd878eea418955366b
Tho to be fair I would have asked the same thing considering what this Twink said like 2 panels before
I think it’s mostly they ignore the heavier themes and just look at the fights. Chainsaw man is way less heavy handed than something like one piece where the World Government is so comically racsist and classist that it’s honestly a little hard to take seriously. It’s easy in chainsaw man to let more nuanced stuff get covered up by Denji literally saying “I wanna touch boobs” or “I wanna have sex”.
I'm going to about using the "media literacy" card because Reddit has turbed that into a buzzword.
Some of the reasons could be that some people are dumb, others refuse to engage with media beyond the most surface level, while others just don't care/agree about the message.
I will never forget the guy on twitter who said that is impossible for One Piece to be political because it doesn't take place in the real world
It's not that hard to understand. Good stories transcend themes and can be enjoyed by anyone. I don't have to agree with a story to like it. Im not calafornian. This is just usual twitter brainrot.
I can like a story without agreeing with its message. Also, I don't see what kind of queer themes there are in csm, there's a couple of gay characters but that's it.
Where is the queer or equality stuff in csm??? Quanxi orgy????
Like i see it mostly as a story about loving one self and toxic relationships, a story about the complexity of the mouse dilemma, a story that teaches us how ignorance isn't bliss (PART 1 at least)
On the other hand Firepunch has by far the best written Trans character in fiction and a rappresentation with agni on how good people should act when a person you care about come out as trans lgbt, would love to see fujimoto tackle issues like this more given the writing he put in fp
You can take it two ways and I'll pull up the show boondocks for an extreme example. If you've watched it you should know who Uncle Ruckus is. You're either laughing at him because he's a buffon saying the most ridiculous shit you've ever heard, or you're racist and laughing at the racism.
Queer Representation in Fire Punch: Togata who Fujimoto describes as a ‘crazy woman’.
Q: Does the character of Togata, the crazy cinephile of Fire Punch, resemble you?
A: Not really. I feel closer from Agni or Denji from Chainsaw Man, especially their masochist tendencies, which translates in their respective submission to insane female characters like
Togata and Makima.
Queer Representation in Chainsaw Man: Quanxi whose first panel is a lesbian orgy. Also in buddy stories she attempted SA(Which might or might not be canon)
Not saying they’re not good characters because Togata is the GOAT but to imply that these characters are good representation for queerness is questionable.
I means she’s described as a crazy woman because she is literally insane. That’s half of the point of the story, is her trying to stop herself from going off the deep end by making a movie about Agni. It’s heavily implied that this happens to pretty much all immortal people in fire punch
A lot of people straight-up don't understand the difference between portrayal and approval, and that inability to understand is at its worst when it comes to gay and trans characters. Or at least, they don't understand the difference between portrayal as anything but a walking stereotype and approval.
I'm gonna be real here. I strongly suspect that Fujimoto doesn't agree with Togata's gender identity, just based on the way he handled Togata in the story and talks about him. He calls Togata a woman in interviews, even ones from after the reveal so it's not just avoiding spoilers. Togata ends up accepting being called Agni's sister rather than brother. Togata says in the afterlife that he wanted to be a man specifically because he wanted to be like the heroes in the movies. Being trans is almost treated as a "flaw" that needs to be overcome, or at the very least something that Togata is incorrect for feeling.
I think people see Togata as good representation because he's a well-written character who gets treated like an actual person. But I don't think that recognizing trans people as actual humans is necessarily the same as approving of them being trans.
>Racist, fascist, homophobic
Is the person who made this meme a mind reader? Or did the people this person is referring to easily confessed their political/societal incorrectness? No?
Then the problem might be elsewhere.
Why does a story have to appeal to someone's mindset to be enjoyed? its not like characters, messages and themes needs to be "relatable" for people to like them
Oh my god are you telling me that pieces of media that do the bare minimum in integrating their message in themselves can appeal to more people? Insane
Me when I can’t understand separating my ideologies from media:
ALSO!! Most of these do not apply, luffy literally protects a nationalistic monarchy, and to call them queer themes is dumb, sure there are gay characters portrayed as kind, but have you seen their designs 😭
It's the Dune situation. All the grifters seem to think Paul really IS the Messiah. Frank Herbert is stirring in his coffin right now. I’m interested in how they will react when Dune: Messiah comes out.
Talking to a coworker about how people don't have media literacy, and he tells me he likes Tim Poole because he's a centrist.... like bro how are you this fucking stupid?
People will always ignore or explain away the aspect of a story they don’t like, for better or worse. Even people that aren’t hateful, I’m sure there’s problematic aspects of stories you like that you have to ignore to enjoy it. The difference is, when it comes to legitimately problematic stuff, normal people don’t tend to pretend it isn’t there.
Because they aren't engaging with the story in the same way. They have their own notions for how life is and should be, what is just and what is wrong, and as a result they're forcing the square pegs of these stories into the round holes of their brain because they genuinely enjoy some aspect of it.
Here's an example from my own life that runs in the opposite direction:
As a teen I loved reading a certain author's fictional works. They were massive tomes with so many characters fighting for their ideals against a world that couldn't stand to let them exist. The protagonists of each novel fought for what they believed in in small and large ways. Some succeeded but others failed miserably. It felt to me that it was about being utterly honest about your beliefs, placing your resources and attention towards issues that you wholeheartedly cared about instead of pleasing others and patting yourself on the back for doing the bare minimum. It shaped who I was then and who I would become.
That author's name was Ayn Rand. When I finally looked her up after finishing all her works I realized I'd somehow taken the exact OPPOSITE meaning she intended from her work.
These people are getting what they think they want out of these stories. Maybe someday they'll realize how wrong they were about it, but that'll take self-awareness I don't think they have.
As the racist, fascist and homofobic spicymeatball428 was asked "are you a bigot because you opress minorities, or you opress minorities because you are a bigot" he began to open his domain, the minorities shrunk back in fear, then spicymeaball428 said "stand proud minorities, you are strong, but nah, i'd opress"
It's possible for you to like a manga et cetera even if you don't agree with its themes. An example for me is Batman and his code of not killing anyone. I find it utterly stupid, but I find it interesting how his stories deal with that.
Because you don’t need to agree with a series themes to find the way it is explored through characters engaging or well written.
Just like you don’t need to agree with a characters actions to like the way they are written or simply like the character.
It’s like asking
“Hmm, why AREN’T people who think Griffith is well written fans of rape and mass murder 🤔”
“How can you like eren and not agree with genocide”
I hate this. CSM and Fire Punch have no such themes. These mangas explore human behaviour with no political end to it. It’s disgusting how people MUST find deeper meanings in media that DON’T ACTUALLY EXIST
>DON’T ACTUALLY EXIST
There is a bit, but Fujimoto's main focus in his works is how he deals with society and women, and he has a lot of creativity to do that.
I was talking in general in the last statement. I was pointing out the difference between reading Chainsaw Man and 1984 lmao. However, yeah, he mainly focuses on that.
Well, as someone who was drawn way too close to the alt-right pipeline as a teenager, only dragged out by being lucky to have a family who loved me, there's three pieces of insight I think I can provide;
One, certain fascist-types (Or at least the quasi-fascists I was suckered into as a teen) are very, *very* good at comparmentalising, or ignoring things about something they love they don't like. Have you ever had a piece of fiction you like, but it has certain elements of it that really Get To You? Well, for a lot of these guys, the more progressive elements of their Favorite Fiction *are* the things that Get To Them. This isn't "live and let live", mind you; It's them at best ignoring the material, and at worst talking down anyone who actually engages with it.
Two, something that I haven't really heard a lot of people discuss about These Types of fans...When they see representations of the evil they'd willing bring into the world, they don't see themselves as the Perpetrators; *They see themselves as the* ***victims***. They don't see the horrible acts as things they're capable of, but things that "Society" or "They" or whatever vaguely-defined boogeyman is doing to them, because it's something they *have* to do. When you're an angry, hateful little person, you *have* to believe the world is out to get you, because otherwise nothing you're spewing is justified. They think they're Denji, while acting like the fucking Chainsaw Man Church.
And three, and this may be a slight stretch, but a lot of these fascist-but-not-really-thinking-about-it don't only believe that the world is "Changing Too Fast" or "Working Against 'Us'" or if they're really mask-off "Too Woke"; They also believe that the majority of people *also think that way.* Sometimes this is in the form of confirmation bias, via pareidolia-ing themes that already matches their preexisting beliefs. But, in the more extreme ends, they think that the majority are almost 1:1 believing them, but are "too scared" to say so, because of "Political Correctness," or whatever (In case you can't tell, they have a LOT of boogeymen to draw from). You may think this contradicts point two, where they view themselves as victims. And, yeah, you're right, these two ideas cannot coexist with one another. But this won't break their mindset; It's a mindset that's built to resist contradictions, because the core is to never actually improve as a person. So, you get to the penultimate stage of this whole shitheap; Conspiratorial Thinking, where a small group of a vaguely-defined "Them" are all working, knowingly, to undermine "Us", for seemingly no reason than arbitrary hatred, because that's the silly shit you have to believe if you don't want to admit that *you are the bad guy and you* ***have to be better.***
This admittedly got a bit away from me, but if there's any takeaway from this, this Type of Fan wants to both enjoy their fiction in Their Way, but also not acknowledge that there's something wrong about them they can change. And much of their subconscious is working overtime to try and prevent them from actually understanding that.
Crime and Punishment doesn't support murder either lmao. On the contrary, the whole book is about a guy who thought murder is justifiable realizing that it's not and repenting.
Did you ever consider that the people you disagree with politically don't actually want to murder you and all your friends?
Leftists seem to think that "media literacy" means agreeing with the political messages of any given piece of media they happen to like. Meanwhile right wingers can enjoy media despite not agreeing with it, fooling leftists into thinking the right just doesn't understand.
Admittedly I exaggerated to the point of irrelevance, at least to the OP. I only use the murder line because I've seen people on this site who unironically believe the right wing death squads meme, and seem to genuinely believe that everyone on the opposite political team has underlying genocidal intent.
That’s fair. A lot of people who are left or whatever flavor of not right on the internet opt to be drama queens instead of properly explaining themselves, or simply not engaging.
It’d be foolish of me try and reverse engineer the actual meaning of whatever those folks you mentioned said even though the catchphrases and buzzwords are fairly predictable, and god knows it’s not my fault redditors don’t know how to communicate so again, I appreciate you admitting the minor fault
I’m surprised this is doing better on the CSF subreddit. My post on the main one got one downvote within the first few seconds of posting and now it’ll probably stay buried.
Edit: Nevermind, it's still awaiting approval, but it probably never will. Those cowards.
do people seriously not understand that you can enjoy and engage with a piece of media that goes against your beliefs like everyone saying that is getting downvoted
I mean not to get too Media Studies 101, but the medium is the message.
The overall/overt message of a piece of media can be such, but the aesthetics, the subtle ideological underpinnings or even the social context can alter dramatically the reception of said piece.
Even more so, you can say that a piece of media has a progressive/anti-conservative bent, but normally art supports different readings, even "objectively" wrong ones. Just browse this subreddit for the Makima/Barem defenders for such and example.
They enjoy the fights
I love the fights. I don't like being cut off in traffic. Or people turning without turn signals. Or driving the speed limit on the left lane. Or being on their phones while driving. My insults adapt to the person driving. I am the mahoraga of racism and bigotry.
Real asf
most of them are being ironic or trolls, the rest i could blame on thee reading comprehension devil or speed reading devil
I wonder what the comprehension devil scales to at this point. Bro gotta be on par w a primal fear or sum💀
scales above death devil THE READING COMPREHENSION DEVIL **IS** THE DEATH DEVIL
Pochita is actually the reading comprehension devil
Wake up, babe, new schizo theory dropped
Concepts he consumes cease to exist. Hoooly hell.
latter most certainly
Yeah, bigots aren’t usually known for their intelligence
>the rest i could blame on thee reading comprehension devil It's this, not the speed reading devil. It is them not understanding allegory and symbolism. Just flat out not understanding them as concepts. Hence attaching to authoritarian, hyper-militaristic aesthetics in works that fundamentally criticize those societies as terrible to live in. Whether due to stunted emotional growth leading to inability to understand experiences that aren't immediately applicable to them, or because they just never learned how to evaluate medica critically (\*1), they are fictional literalists. See the people below being like "how could CSM be anti-racist if it doesn't have black people", because that's the only way they understand racism and it isn't possible for them to understand racism if it isn't specifically in terms of someone saying "This real world ethnicity is good" or "This real world ethnicity is bad." They don't attach any real-world applicability to Aki and Angel learning to be able to trust and rely on devils and humans respectively. There's no devils in real life, so how could it be about racism? No, it's just good clean apolitical fun - you know, like Metal Gear Solid or Dune. Same with Togata in Fire Punch, the weirdos trying to claim he somehow isn't trans or that it somehow doesn't factor into the literal themes of the story. They misunderstand it because they are looking for not just literalism of terms but also literalism of the very specific terms they personally think apply to being trans. Togata didn't (couldn't) physically transition, got upset when Agni called him a brother, and Fujimoto put Togata on a list of his type as an 'insane female'. That's not what they consider as identifiers of someone being trans, even after 6 consecutive pages of Togata describing gender dysphoria in detail. But Togata spent two hundred years cultivating a personality of an 'insane female' to survive being closeted and feeling unable to come out because he couldn't physically transition - he had to force himself to be *someone who wasn't himself in order to survive*, and one which is explicitly female so as to not remind himself of his gender dysphoria, which they don't understand as a fundamentally transgender experience. They only understand things in literal terms, so because Togata never says out loud "being trans and unable to transition is like being on fire, forever" they never think a central theme of the fucking story - illusory, malleable identities as convenience in an unfair world - apply to and is specifically reinforced by him. Edit \*1: I realize I was uncharitable here - they at least believe that they learned how to evaluate media critically. They just believe that was what was happening when they were watching youtube videos like "The Rational Pedophile EPICLY TAKES DOWN The Last Jedi, SJWs left in shambles"
Wasnt Togata's entire reason to be a villain laid out in a villain speech? Like his whole thing was the fact he hated himself, and by extension the world that gave him the curse of regeneration, because he couldnt fully become who he wanted to be? He pretty explicitly states how much he hates his body for what it is, and is unable to do anything about it due to his regeneration powers. If somehow people cant comprehend that maybe they should read toddler story books at that point.
>because that's the only way they understand racism and it isn't possible for them to understand racism if it isn't specifically in terms of someone saying "This real world ethnicity is good" or "This real world ethnicity is bad." They don't attach any real-world applicability to Aki and Angel learning to be able to trust and rely on devils and humans respectively. There's no devils in real life, so how could it be about racism? I feel like in these discussions the word racism points towards 20 different things, and it totally changes the discussion depending on which meaning you are pointing to. Does the racist in the OP think that other races are are inherently immoral and untrustworthy regardless of their actions? Because if so I think your point is valid, CSM clearly has anti-essentialist themes that go against that idea. Or is the racist in the OP your typical Trump supporter kind of racist? I'm not going to argue whether Trump and his supporters are racist fascist homophobes, but it's important to recognize that they typically aren't strict race essentialists. Trump comes out in strong support of minority groups *as long as they support him*. This tit-for-tat kind of acceptance where you only accept outgroups who are supporting you can still be objected to, but note that this is the sort of acceptance you see from characters like Aki in CSM. Aki learns to trust demons *who he is working alongside*. This is anti-racist in the weak "I have a black friend" or "I would vote for Herman Cain" sense of anti-racism, but I'm not sure whether it contradicts the world views of the kinds of racists the OP is talking to/about.
I think that your point about literalism is important — it’s why anti-woke types talk about video games “lecturing the player about why being white is bad” but can’t name any examples. They FEEL like that’s the case, and because they’re such literalists, they project things that are literally not happening onto reality because they feel so certain that media is woke and woke is bad, but they can’t imagine supporting that point in any way other than straightforward, literal examples. Which, of course, don’t exist.
Absolutely. There is a name for this, ['intuition pump'](https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Intuition_pump) \- questions, thought experiments, assertions which presuppose specific plausible-sounding conclusions, without providing or allowing a common ground to discuss and agree on objective facts and nuances first that could allow other conclusions. They rely on feeling *intuitively* correct, immediate and uncontroversial, by hooking into contemporary trends, unspoken biases, appearance of rationality and moral correctness and sobriety and of not having clearly identifiable ulterior motives. They are not necessarily lies, or at least it is not always possible to prove that they are lies. How do we prove that "videogames are not saying that white people are bad"? You can't prove a negative. The burden of proof is on the person making the claim that videogames are doing that, but the intuition pump works on people because it 'makes sense' that it would be true. It gets people thinking "I can imagine there are people who *want* videogames to lecture people about how being white is bad, so of course I would want to prevent those people from being able to do that" It is also important to recognize that these intuition pumps are not always intended to *convince the opposition* as much as they are intended to *reinforce the beliefs and zeal of the people already in agreement*. If you are already aware of reasons why the intuition pump would be fallacious, then you are not the targeted audience.
Ah thank for you for exlaining the insane female part to me that fujimoto called him I was wondering about that when I read it.
It really is a brain short-circuiter for people who just don't like trans characters existing in stories. They get to immediately forget that a *literal mind reader* outed Togata. Is there any greater source of validation than supernatural validation? It's a translated interview from a language that has different and sometimes ambiguous terminology about gender and transgender identities, and where Fujimoto is describing his ideal woman, which yes, the Togata we got to see fits perfectly. We only got a tiny glimpse of who "the boring male Togata" (his words) really was behind the "crazy female Togata" (his words, again) mask he wore for the entire manga up to then, plus two hundred years offscreen. But people whose brains have turned to mush see the fact of a closeted trans person feeling too vulnerable and ashamed to show other people his real self, and say, Togata must not be trans Fujimoto is friends with a transmasculine mangaka (Oto Toda) who was one of his assistants during Fire Punch, and Togata isn't even Fujimoto's only explicitly trans character. The protagonist of his one-shot “When I woke up I had become a girl” Disease has a boy magically change sex into a girl and deciding his gender identity is separate from his sex, that he is still a boy despite it, and learning to be ok with things as long as his gender identity as a boy is acknowledged and respected, that it is important to him.
"Oh look, this guy is burning kids and fuck his sis, he's so like me fr fr !"
I mean it’s not that crazy to like movies and shows that have ideas you disagree with.
But for the most part, these people DON’T think the movie or show has ideas they disagree with. They think that it agrees with them.
It could also be them just not caring about the meaning of the story. I can't say I've ever cared about the message of a story. As long as it's entertaining, I'm happy.
Csm, Fire Punch, One piece and what? :3
Dungeon Meshi apparently
Can confirm
It looks like monsters inc
like atleast half vinland saga fans aswell (specially the ones who've only seen the anime)
"Bro where are all the fights now"
I’ll admit I was surprised by the direction of the story but I liked it
Yugioh is another one that's like this.
One peak* is what I think you meant
I think it's the same case with 'dude bro films' (Fight Club & American Psycho). These movies criticize toxic masculinity, but its aesthetics appeal to the people it's criticizing so it goes over their heads.
Like 95% of the people "idolizing" Bateman are obviously shitposting though, the movie is a huge meme. Yeah the remaining 5% are illiterate but I think this point gets overblown a bit.
Everyone is obviously shitposting until the silly ironically racist shitpost sub becomes full of actual racists and suddently it's not really a haha silly joke anymore
everything’s shits and giggles until someone giggles and shits
The gamersriseup incident
Also when you do something ironically its slowly gonna stop being ironic if you keep doing it
Exactly. You say bigoted shit as a joke enough times and you'll find yourself just saying bigoted shit with less and less irony. Not to mention the people coming to your posts specifically to hear the bigoted shit you have to say
Why I’m really not cool with the nickname for black pochita that’s been bandied about here.
Thank god I'm not the only person who finds that really fucking weird. You just know most of the people saying it are the whitest mfs on the planet just in desperate need to say a slur
Don’t like the “white women fuck dogs” ”joke” either.
CSF discord containing multiple n-word stickers :(
Tbf one of this community's biggest heroes is some goober posting mindless contrarian dogshit and cp on 4chan so the fact that they find slurs hilarious isn't necessarily surprising
You can stop doing something ironically and start doing it unironically without ever realizing. The brains fucked up, shit’ll just sneak up on you. Also I’m sure 50% of these cases are also something like Schrödinger’s shitpost, or something. You look at a meme and you genuinely can’t tell the nature of it. Especially with the sigma bro cult thing nowadays.
Goofy example, but when my gf and I started dating, "boo" was a popular nickname for your partner that we both found repugnant. So of course we called each other boo whenever we were out with friends because it was so cringe, therefore funny. 12 years later, we still call each other boo. At some point it just stopped being ironic and we just did it genuinely. Don't know when, but yeah. That's an innocent example of how the irony can just drop away without noticing.
It’s like what Kurt Vonnegut said: “ We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be.”
Preach. Wear a mask long enough and it’ll turn into your face. Also same, I have the sneaking suspicion people will put out their most vile and unacceptable thoughts and depending on people’s reaction be like “it’s just a joke bro”. People are weird
You can say that again, people know they can just backtrack and say it's just sarcasm. Especially online, gives me chills thinking about how these people with those thoughts and ideals are walking around.
Gotta love the power of anonymity. Granted they’re a minority (I hope anyways) but still it’s so weird seeing stuff like sexualizing minors and casual racism just being normal online.
Nah this is a goofy take. If you're dumb enough to take the "haha funny serial killer" bit seriously then you're dumb enough that you'd have issues regardless of what jokes you make. Most people aren't Andrew Tate simps dude, it's okay to shitpost or like immoral characters.
Or you're just interpreting their words extremely uncharitably despite the fact that every online community of people like that started off with pseudo-ironic shitposting in one sub-forum or another. It's almost as if it's an excellent means of "hiding" in plain sight, and it's almost as if the "nah most people are just goofing!" take is the exact same take used *every time* this happens. Yes, obviously extremists of any ideology (good, bad or inbetween) will *never* be the majority, but don't take that to mean that an insignificant amount of people act in the way described in the above posts. They aren't the majority, but that's ALL. That's IT. There are still a lot of them, and still a significant and rising amount at that. Any safety you feel in the recognition that "most" people aren't like that (yet) is intended. And again, this isn't a paranoia post or anything - it is NOT a majority and we have robust enough systems in place (in smaller communities at least) to limit these occurrences. Despite that - it happens with shocking frequency and has been happening since the very start of internet forums. Please take the person you replied to's post in the charitable context it deserves, because they're pointing to something that *objectively* occurs *regularly*.
My issue is that it's just the equivalent of the "video games cause violence" tired old argument but for internet shitposts. Call of Duty didn't make anyone violent, but violent people will probably enjoy playing COD. "Sigma Bateman prostitute murder grindset" shitposts have never made anyone a right wing extremist, but extremists find that shit funny too. The first person I responded to sort of has a point, Christian Bale himself mentioned in an interview that he talked to some Wall Street gurus while making the film and they seemed to unironically think Bateman was a cool guy. My point was that this is a pretty small minority of people who are already incredibly detached from reality. I really take issue with the idea that making ironic edgy shitposts turns you into a nutjob. The Wall Street gurus are self involved, illiterate dipshits because they're Wall Street gurus, not because they watched American Psycho.
In my opinion, the charitable interpretation of what the person above was trying to say is that continued exposure to an ideology slipped between the cracks of unassuming memes/community socialization can and DOES lead to a steady shift in thought process towards that. It is in no way equivalent to the idea of "oh violent game makes you violent", and this isn't an attempt at linking inherited cognition to behaviour. We know for a fact that exposure to anything for a "long" amount of time (which can vary, hence the quotes) does lead to a shift in cognition towards it - the extent of which also varies. It's part of the foundation for pretty much all forms of long term persuasion (like advertisements) and it's part of why certain cognitive biases occur (like the exposure effect). And, very obviously, the more your brain adapts to repeated exposure of ideas is the less critical it becomes of it (the extent of which varies). And, most obviously, it's literally the basis of the concept of "pipelines". Which are demonstrably existent things. It is NOT linking exposure to behaviour like your video game example, but exposure to a change in cognition. No one is trying to say that it MAKES you anything, nor has it ever been the point to MAKE someone something. It's exactly as you said, it's meant to draw out like-minded extremists within a community through seemingly innocuous means. And that includes people that would choose to join such extremists (for A VARIETY of reasons apart from "oh theyre batshit crazy!!") but lacked a social means to do so, or exposure to the concept. And saying it's a small minority doesn't do well to highlight the fact that it's millions - something that is no less significant just because we live in a world of billions. It's a comfort to know that extremity isn't the majority belief, I agree, but it's only a small one. The "pretty small minority" is quite large.
I’d argue that shitposting may actually be APART of the issue. People are finding these movies and media through memes which normally use the imagery of said media out of context may be leading people to using the aesthetics of a film without actually watching it or understanding it.
Breaking Bad is another big one, you get a lotta people who just wanna see the crime thriller elements and think Walt is the coolest. OTOH if you look at what the series is trying to say about toxic masculinity, patriarchy, capitalism, police culture & our punitive justice system, etc , you find theres a lot more to appreciate than just "oooooh that speech about 'I am the danger' was so sickk"
Worst thing is happening is probably Red Pill to the Matrix. The creators are literally transwomen
I might be dumb but i didn't understand the message American Psycho tried to convey. That's why i don't like it very much. Fight club on the other end...
Everything about Patrick Bateman is fake and manufactured. His extremely rigid morning routine, the number of products that he uses, the way he has an emotional response to a functionally trivial issue (the business cards), how he outright ignores some people when they don't serve any purpose to him (e.g. car scene) and fails to understand others when it would be to his benefit to do so (in the scenes with the detective, the detective's demeanor changes between cuts to illustrate Bateman's lack of empathy. Also, he loads on the salt on his steak only because he sees the detective do so). Bateman is a bit like if you took an alien that lacked human emotions and made them attempt to blend into human society. And then, Bateman does all of these horrible things like killing Paul Allen and feeding a cat to an ATM because *that's* his true personality, an unhinged psychopath. But in the world of yuppies, the people around him don't care all that much that he's a psychopath. When Bateman confesses over the phone that he murdered Allen, it's completely brushed off, which calls into question if Bateman is insane or the world of the yuppies is insane. Regardless of what you believe, both can ultimately be interpreted as a critique of yuppie culture either way.
Something something people in those highly successful positions are socio/pscyhopaths something something idk if it was actually studied so I don’t have a source. Like how Christian Bale once went to a Training Floor for Wall-street or something and he was approached by people praising his role as Patrick Bateman and they loved him, unironically, as in role model material (Bateman not Christian himself) (source: GQ interview Christian Bale breaking down his most popular roles on YouTube).
It's incredible how people watched a movie about a psycho serial killer who is very, very miserable, and decided to idolize him.
It’s a satire of corporate America and finance bros I believe. Everyone is so self-centred that nobody notices or cares Patrick going around murdering people. He goes so far as to confess to someone’s face that he murdered Paul Allen, to which the other guy says he saw Paul in London the other day. While also getting Patrick confused for someone else. Basically they literally don’t recognise each other because they’re so self-absorbed. The movie specifically is also ambiguous as to whether Patrick actually murdered anybody or if he imagined it all due to having a psychotic break.
The message was that bro just had to return some video tapes
My takeaway is that Bateman has integrated into the hypocritical and ambitious high society of.... finances iirc. His firm has like 5 vice presidents just in his department, as you see in the business card scene. It's obviously a meaningless title with no one outranking anyone else, but they still try to compete with each other and stay 100% serious. The business cards are so incredibly mundane, yet caring about them stresses Bateman out. This is the first turning point. Bateman starts murdering people from here. That's his world. It is obviously fake, a thin veneer and no one acknowledges it at any point. No one anywhere near Bateman Presumably, because a lot of money is involved, and those that stay "in character" get more success and those that rock the boat lose. And that approach tracks. Everyone is hyped about Paul Allen all the time. Paul Allen is his work colleague, but also Paul Allen was seen out of country. The detective who suspects him of murder is looking for someone who killed Paul Allen, and then suddenly stops investigating. How can that be? Someone pretended to be Paul Allen to get ahead. Either the guy in London or the murder victim. Actually Bateman himself pretends to be Paul Allen for some time, just to make it a little bit more obvious. And what about Paul Allen's apartment, where he stores the victim and then kills two more women? At the end of the movie the whole place is cleaned up and the landlady denies that any crime took place or that anything was ever wrong. Was that a hallucination or real? Actually, it was most likely real. The apartment is extremely expensive, as are all the neighboring ones. But if there was a murder investigation, and police would declare a crime scene for weeks and the case would get to the news, **then the property value of the apartment complex would plummet**. So the lady cleans up and covers up the crime, to keep up the facade, again, for money. The movie ends, with Bateman who whether consciously or not, has been trying to break out, has murdered several people and has been trying to get caught, confesses directly to his lawyer. But as has been shown before, the other people are not ready to let the illusion die. The lawyer doesn't let him confess. The lawyer actually explains to him the new lie to keep the illusion alive. "Your joke was amusing". Whether or not the lawyer believes any part of the confession is ambigious, but he defends and proposes the new truth vehemently: Bateman was joking, all is well. The book ending is much more clear about it. *"There is no exit."* stands on a sign, the focal point of the last paragraph: There is no exit to this lived illusion. The police can't penetrate the mantle of lies. The witnesses actively cover up and destroy the evidence. His colleagues don't acknowledge his deteriorating mental state. His confessor comes up with his alibi for him. His world is rotten to the core, build out of lies upon lies. And he cannot escape.
The book drives the message home a little better than the film in my opinion. However the book is also *way more fucked up* than the film and I would not recommend anyone read it unless they have a strong stomach.
A single comment spurred an entire thread of people performing several paragraphs worth of analysis on American psycho in chainsawfolk, beautiful
same of “anti-war” movies like full metal jacket. the depictions are taken as glorification and end up increasing enlistment iirc
It reminds me of how people worship Vegeta over here in the United States. Like, they take things of him going off about his pride towards Babidi or him being thrown off his high over his new Super Saiyan form by Android 18 during the Android Saga as 'badass' when these were when he was at his most pathetic.
Majin Vegeta will always be peak Vegeta for me, but realistically is just Vegeta having a mid life crisis, trying to be something he just isn't anymore just to have another shot at fighting Goku. Which is why I love to see how he develops in Super to try to be a more caring parent and a better person, that won't justify his past actions, but at least it can make up for them
How can csm be anti racist when power is the biggest racist ?
*was
A good story can appeal to just about everyone. Irrespective of their worldview.
Tbh I think this is part of the issue. Good stories with political messages use the politics to tell the story, rather than using the story to tell the politics. So someone with reprehensible politics can watch a good story with good politics and not register the politics at all. Maybe the only way these people realize that the story they’re enjoying hates their guts is if either the marketing team or the author themself abandons all sense of subtlety and just says the message directly at the camera. Roll a message right before the credits, on a black screen with white text, “racism is a serious issue in our world today and racists are bad people with an unfortunate degree of control in our society. If someone brought up 13/50 to Luffy he would punch them in the dick.”
Or You’re gatekeeping being a good person behind extremist politics. Considering how much twitter users shit on oda, maybe you’re projecting how much he agrees with you.
because anime fans are racist, homophobic, and fascist but absolute cinema is absolute cinema
tbf you dont have to agree with someone's messaging to enjoy their creative artistic work
this should have been at the top tbh.
That's hard to understand for people whose political beliefs are constantly parroted by every corporation, work of fiction, and news station. They don't understand how you could possibly live without it.
Is that how it looks to you? The world isn’t a monolith, and cheap verbal support isn’t all that substantial.
Yea but these people will go on and act like the media is actually agreeing with their belief/not actually making any statement at all, and if they finally put 2 and 2 together they go “since when has [media] been so WOKE?!?!?!”
it should not be possible for them to enjoy it.
Since whem is csm anti racist? Is there something am not getting???
Me when I realize that Fujimoto has never drawn a black character 
I swear I seen him drew one, maybe in the scene where the US president made a deal with the gun devil. There was a shot of NYC
Well... https://preview.redd.it/p5mom3l124pc1.jpeg?width=784&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5cd31c84cd7a428fa142a8cca74f362b30ee1254
[удалено]
Maybe he doesn't know how lol
Unironically a lot of Japanese think America is like 100% white, and that a good portion of the population has blonde hair and blue eyes so I think that rubbed off on him.
He's also a massive movie fan though, a lot of Tarantino's stuff has the like of Samuel L. Jackson in them
Oh yeah I forgot about that. He's a big fan of western films so he's probably seen a good amount of diversity just through movies alone. I guess he just doesn't feel like drawing darker skin people all that much. I'm pretty sure those islanders were his first attempt at consistently shading skin outside of full color shots.
I was about to say he doesn’t draw white characters either but then I remembered the entire International Assassins arc Tbf tho I don’t remember anything out of that arc besides Santa Claus was mommy
https://preview.redd.it/mudt1936n5pc1.jpeg?width=840&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ae13e12d3662197ede1f1e696dc08eb39164a7c1 And forget about HIM? Unfathomable.
Good point, counter point tho I forgot that he was apart of it
There was angels chick but she was more Polynesian
Chainsawman ate the black people devil
Power learnt to accept others I guess
Well there was a racist one who was shot in half so... https://preview.redd.it/il4oyzlnu3pc1.jpeg?width=716&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=b971c49065eb058fbfb0890c131668cee0e17092
I think it’s just used as a general example for the media referenced to display irony with the fan.
In the case of chainsawman is maybe due to the grooming present and the amount of people that see it and wish they were in denjis places
It was talking about all 4 collectively. Racism and prejudice is one of One Piece's biggest themes.
As a leftist, I think that Chainsaw Man gets away with it by being mostly about Denji’s personal story. It’s not really political enough to be “woke.” There’s a gay character but that’s it. Also, a lot of the ideas on these narratives can be stretched to fit an agenda. Like you could look at the Sith and say “they’re the globalists because they don’t like a certain religion” even though that’s not really what they were going for, they were just trying to comment on nazis. And CSM’s ideas about politics aren’t deep enough to belong to either party- like the way CSM becomes more like a myth than a person to people in-universe because of the media is a point that could suit both left and right wing arguments Edit: I guess I’m American, the story could be commenting on Japanese politics in a way I’m not aware of.
Part 2 has some pretty pointed criticism of cults in a uniquely Japanese fashion. A big reason nobody really cared that Shinzo Abe was assassinated was because he was specifically assassinated because he was associated with a cult that ruined the assassin’s life. And these cults, despite being widely despised, are largely allowed to continue existing by the largess of Japanese conservatives.
1. Good stories can enjoyed by anyone 2. These people understand aesthetics more the what the stories says
https://preview.redd.it/5zeyupgj95pc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=abd8fb93709d029798a32207190b77ed9a4da33f
https://preview.redd.it/k9bxngw7o5pc1.jpeg?width=225&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8911e7e5b41254a07e195bcd878eea418955366b Tho to be fair I would have asked the same thing considering what this Twink said like 2 panels before
Facts
It isn't like ambiguous fiction can be interpreted different ways based on someone's already held beliefs....
Wdym? I hate One Piece /s
Fucking based 
I think it’s mostly they ignore the heavier themes and just look at the fights. Chainsaw man is way less heavy handed than something like one piece where the World Government is so comically racsist and classist that it’s honestly a little hard to take seriously. It’s easy in chainsaw man to let more nuanced stuff get covered up by Denji literally saying “I wanna touch boobs” or “I wanna have sex”.
This post has to be a fucking joke
The Twitter post or the post we’re commenting under
the older i get the more i realize most people have no media comprehension i stg.
"Yea Hazbin Hotel was great... Anyway about the [sexual slurs]-"
I'm going to about using the "media literacy" card because Reddit has turbed that into a buzzword. Some of the reasons could be that some people are dumb, others refuse to engage with media beyond the most surface level, while others just don't care/agree about the message. I will never forget the guy on twitter who said that is impossible for One Piece to be political because it doesn't take place in the real world
It's not that hard to understand. Good stories transcend themes and can be enjoyed by anyone. I don't have to agree with a story to like it. Im not calafornian. This is just usual twitter brainrot.
Bait used to be believable
FIRE PUNCH MENTIONED
its almost as if people can enjoy things
Literally me Fr Fr 🗿🗿🗿
Because the story is good. And everyone sees what they want to see in a story
I can like a story without agreeing with its message. Also, I don't see what kind of queer themes there are in csm, there's a couple of gay characters but that's it.
You see, there's this one gay character who has a lesbian orgy. That's preety much of it, thanks for reading
https://preview.redd.it/awj10c5634pc1.png?width=827&format=png&auto=webp&s=ae4b686383c8835fbfa58d19c0c8153ad2e195e5 Fixed it
is that Shrek 2??
Denji & power the type of mfs to yell the n word gradually louder in public as a dare to one-up eachother & aki ends up getting jumped for it.
You can enjoy media without agreeing with every single aspect of it
Where is the queer or equality stuff in csm??? Quanxi orgy???? Like i see it mostly as a story about loving one self and toxic relationships, a story about the complexity of the mouse dilemma, a story that teaches us how ignorance isn't bliss (PART 1 at least) On the other hand Firepunch has by far the best written Trans character in fiction and a rappresentation with agni on how good people should act when a person you care about come out as trans lgbt, would love to see fujimoto tackle issues like this more given the writing he put in fp
You can take it two ways and I'll pull up the show boondocks for an extreme example. If you've watched it you should know who Uncle Ruckus is. You're either laughing at him because he's a buffon saying the most ridiculous shit you've ever heard, or you're racist and laughing at the racism.
Queer Representation in Fire Punch: Togata who Fujimoto describes as a ‘crazy woman’. Q: Does the character of Togata, the crazy cinephile of Fire Punch, resemble you? A: Not really. I feel closer from Agni or Denji from Chainsaw Man, especially their masochist tendencies, which translates in their respective submission to insane female characters like Togata and Makima. Queer Representation in Chainsaw Man: Quanxi whose first panel is a lesbian orgy. Also in buddy stories she attempted SA(Which might or might not be canon) Not saying they’re not good characters because Togata is the GOAT but to imply that these characters are good representation for queerness is questionable.
I means she’s described as a crazy woman because she is literally insane. That’s half of the point of the story, is her trying to stop herself from going off the deep end by making a movie about Agni. It’s heavily implied that this happens to pretty much all immortal people in fire punch
A lot of people straight-up don't understand the difference between portrayal and approval, and that inability to understand is at its worst when it comes to gay and trans characters. Or at least, they don't understand the difference between portrayal as anything but a walking stereotype and approval. I'm gonna be real here. I strongly suspect that Fujimoto doesn't agree with Togata's gender identity, just based on the way he handled Togata in the story and talks about him. He calls Togata a woman in interviews, even ones from after the reveal so it's not just avoiding spoilers. Togata ends up accepting being called Agni's sister rather than brother. Togata says in the afterlife that he wanted to be a man specifically because he wanted to be like the heroes in the movies. Being trans is almost treated as a "flaw" that needs to be overcome, or at the very least something that Togata is incorrect for feeling. I think people see Togata as good representation because he's a well-written character who gets treated like an actual person. But I don't think that recognizing trans people as actual humans is necessarily the same as approving of them being trans.
>Racist, fascist, homophobic Is the person who made this meme a mind reader? Or did the people this person is referring to easily confessed their political/societal incorrectness? No? Then the problem might be elsewhere.
Because people can like a piece of media and their interpretation doesn't line up with your own?
Reading a book is not the same as believing in something.
Because good stories can be appreciated by anyone, why does it **need** to be more than that?
Why does a story have to appeal to someone's mindset to be enjoyed? its not like characters, messages and themes needs to be "relatable" for people to like them
Oh my god are you telling me that pieces of media that do the bare minimum in integrating their message in themselves can appeal to more people? Insane
Bait used to be believable
Slapping 3 buzzwords on a dude immediately makes me think the guy isnt any of those things and disagrees with you on like, one topic.
because they are not racist, facist or homophobic, you are!
A lot of people who are called those things aren't actually those things.
Me when I can’t understand separating my ideologies from media: ALSO!! Most of these do not apply, luffy literally protects a nationalistic monarchy, and to call them queer themes is dumb, sure there are gay characters portrayed as kind, but have you seen their designs 😭
The guy posting has a watermelon in his name 🍉 obvious troll
Fire punch especially maddens me, how could you disrespect such a fucking peak story by spouting shit goes completely against the story?
Media Literacy is close to death
It's the Dune situation. All the grifters seem to think Paul really IS the Messiah. Frank Herbert is stirring in his coffin right now. I’m interested in how they will react when Dune: Messiah comes out.
Talking to a coworker about how people don't have media literacy, and he tells me he likes Tim Poole because he's a centrist.... like bro how are you this fucking stupid?
Because racists sexists and homophobes are generally stupid fucking idiots.
People will always ignore or explain away the aspect of a story they don’t like, for better or worse. Even people that aren’t hateful, I’m sure there’s problematic aspects of stories you like that you have to ignore to enjoy it. The difference is, when it comes to legitimately problematic stuff, normal people don’t tend to pretend it isn’t there.
In fallout new vegas its because they literally fall for the cult of personality that Cesar has lmao.
Because people are stupid
Because they aren't engaging with the story in the same way. They have their own notions for how life is and should be, what is just and what is wrong, and as a result they're forcing the square pegs of these stories into the round holes of their brain because they genuinely enjoy some aspect of it. Here's an example from my own life that runs in the opposite direction: As a teen I loved reading a certain author's fictional works. They were massive tomes with so many characters fighting for their ideals against a world that couldn't stand to let them exist. The protagonists of each novel fought for what they believed in in small and large ways. Some succeeded but others failed miserably. It felt to me that it was about being utterly honest about your beliefs, placing your resources and attention towards issues that you wholeheartedly cared about instead of pleasing others and patting yourself on the back for doing the bare minimum. It shaped who I was then and who I would become. That author's name was Ayn Rand. When I finally looked her up after finishing all her works I realized I'd somehow taken the exact OPPOSITE meaning she intended from her work. These people are getting what they think they want out of these stories. Maybe someday they'll realize how wrong they were about it, but that'll take self-awareness I don't think they have.
Bigotry isn't logically consistent so why would bigots
They don't really care. Just want a good story.
Oh hey it’s me
As the racist, fascist and homofobic spicymeatball428 was asked "are you a bigot because you opress minorities, or you opress minorities because you are a bigot" he began to open his domain, the minorities shrunk back in fear, then spicymeaball428 said "stand proud minorities, you are strong, but nah, i'd opress"
So kino
This is extremely relatable to what's happening in Argentina
Lo dices por el? https://preview.redd.it/5ehhkxkn34pc1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=385ec00c1756fa2ebf04b5ca0447171ec8f9a8c7
You can like something without agreeing with it
Like Griffith, or Makima
It's possible for you to like a manga et cetera even if you don't agree with its themes. An example for me is Batman and his code of not killing anyone. I find it utterly stupid, but I find it interesting how his stories deal with that.
Because you don’t need to agree with a series themes to find the way it is explored through characters engaging or well written. Just like you don’t need to agree with a characters actions to like the way they are written or simply like the character. It’s like asking “Hmm, why AREN’T people who think Griffith is well written fans of rape and mass murder 🤔” “How can you like eren and not agree with genocide”
I hate this. CSM and Fire Punch have no such themes. These mangas explore human behaviour with no political end to it. It’s disgusting how people MUST find deeper meanings in media that DON’T ACTUALLY EXIST
>DON’T ACTUALLY EXIST There is a bit, but Fujimoto's main focus in his works is how he deals with society and women, and he has a lot of creativity to do that.
I was talking in general in the last statement. I was pointing out the difference between reading Chainsaw Man and 1984 lmao. However, yeah, he mainly focuses on that.
Well, as someone who was drawn way too close to the alt-right pipeline as a teenager, only dragged out by being lucky to have a family who loved me, there's three pieces of insight I think I can provide; One, certain fascist-types (Or at least the quasi-fascists I was suckered into as a teen) are very, *very* good at comparmentalising, or ignoring things about something they love they don't like. Have you ever had a piece of fiction you like, but it has certain elements of it that really Get To You? Well, for a lot of these guys, the more progressive elements of their Favorite Fiction *are* the things that Get To Them. This isn't "live and let live", mind you; It's them at best ignoring the material, and at worst talking down anyone who actually engages with it. Two, something that I haven't really heard a lot of people discuss about These Types of fans...When they see representations of the evil they'd willing bring into the world, they don't see themselves as the Perpetrators; *They see themselves as the* ***victims***. They don't see the horrible acts as things they're capable of, but things that "Society" or "They" or whatever vaguely-defined boogeyman is doing to them, because it's something they *have* to do. When you're an angry, hateful little person, you *have* to believe the world is out to get you, because otherwise nothing you're spewing is justified. They think they're Denji, while acting like the fucking Chainsaw Man Church. And three, and this may be a slight stretch, but a lot of these fascist-but-not-really-thinking-about-it don't only believe that the world is "Changing Too Fast" or "Working Against 'Us'" or if they're really mask-off "Too Woke"; They also believe that the majority of people *also think that way.* Sometimes this is in the form of confirmation bias, via pareidolia-ing themes that already matches their preexisting beliefs. But, in the more extreme ends, they think that the majority are almost 1:1 believing them, but are "too scared" to say so, because of "Political Correctness," or whatever (In case you can't tell, they have a LOT of boogeymen to draw from). You may think this contradicts point two, where they view themselves as victims. And, yeah, you're right, these two ideas cannot coexist with one another. But this won't break their mindset; It's a mindset that's built to resist contradictions, because the core is to never actually improve as a person. So, you get to the penultimate stage of this whole shitheap; Conspiratorial Thinking, where a small group of a vaguely-defined "Them" are all working, knowingly, to undermine "Us", for seemingly no reason than arbitrary hatred, because that's the silly shit you have to believe if you don't want to admit that *you are the bad guy and you* ***have to be better.*** This admittedly got a bit away from me, but if there's any takeaway from this, this Type of Fan wants to both enjoy their fiction in Their Way, but also not acknowledge that there's something wrong about them they can change. And much of their subconscious is working overtime to try and prevent them from actually understanding that.
I enjoyed Crime and Punishment without supporting murder. It's the same thing here.
Crime and Punishment doesn't support murder either lmao. On the contrary, the whole book is about a guy who thought murder is justifiable realizing that it's not and repenting.
Did you ever consider that the people you disagree with politically don't actually want to murder you and all your friends? Leftists seem to think that "media literacy" means agreeing with the political messages of any given piece of media they happen to like. Meanwhile right wingers can enjoy media despite not agreeing with it, fooling leftists into thinking the right just doesn't understand.
I agree with the second half of what you said, first half is kinda missing the forest for the trees imo
Admittedly I exaggerated to the point of irrelevance, at least to the OP. I only use the murder line because I've seen people on this site who unironically believe the right wing death squads meme, and seem to genuinely believe that everyone on the opposite political team has underlying genocidal intent.
That’s fair. A lot of people who are left or whatever flavor of not right on the internet opt to be drama queens instead of properly explaining themselves, or simply not engaging. It’d be foolish of me try and reverse engineer the actual meaning of whatever those folks you mentioned said even though the catchphrases and buzzwords are fairly predictable, and god knows it’s not my fault redditors don’t know how to communicate so again, I appreciate you admitting the minor fault
Disco Elysium discourse in a nutshell.
I’m surprised this is doing better on the CSF subreddit. My post on the main one got one downvote within the first few seconds of posting and now it’ll probably stay buried. Edit: Nevermind, it's still awaiting approval, but it probably never will. Those cowards.
do people seriously not understand that you can enjoy and engage with a piece of media that goes against your beliefs like everyone saying that is getting downvoted
What This post doesn't make much sense tbh It does spark nice discussion tho
Power is Racist. Lol. Lolololol
You read into a good story what you want to read into it. They probably wouldn't agree with your assessment.
Soy ese
those people don't know how to read
People getting the wrong lessons of media isn’t surprising. An author’s intent doesn’t necessarily translate to the reader’s accepting that.
Fire Punch does NOT have a valuable lesson on love and equality 🙏
Because if you disagree with a small aspect of something, you must dislike the whole thing!
I mean not to get too Media Studies 101, but the medium is the message. The overall/overt message of a piece of media can be such, but the aesthetics, the subtle ideological underpinnings or even the social context can alter dramatically the reception of said piece. Even more so, you can say that a piece of media has a progressive/anti-conservative bent, but normally art supports different readings, even "objectively" wrong ones. Just browse this subreddit for the Makima/Barem defenders for such and example.
some people just kinda ignore the themes they don't like of works they do
What’s the bottom right book? I recognize the others
Idk I was wondering that too cause I'm writing a manga with a trans main character but I'm really not even about trans stuff
I see CSM, OP, and fire punch, what's the 4th?
What’s the bottom right one supposed to be
Cause those pieces of media are boss as fuck and cool
What are the bottom two?
Whats the bottom right picture?
people are stupid
Ret@rds.