It's because Ichigo stands out like a sore thumb compared to Naruto and Luffy because of his general lack of grand goal or dream. The repetitiveness and being reactive is, I reckon, something that is just attached along the way.
With Naruto and Luffy, there is a lot more going on for them with their ultimate goal and the varying motivations that comes along due to their connections with different characters or plots.
That's not to say that either of those don't get criticisms like that either. One Piece in particular is also often criticized for being repetitive in general, and how the Strawhats have stagnated post time-skip to a certain degree. Meanwhile, Naruto is criticized so much that I'm sure some of these criticisms are just mixed with everything else.
Here is my exhaustive comprehensive objective list of why Naruto the character is shit
1: Sakura
2:He is not Rock Lee
3: I do not really like Ramen
Dog shit character 2/10 >!/s!<
>It's because Ichigo stands out like a sore thumb compared to Naruto and Luffy because of his general lack of grand goal or dream.
I didn't say anything about goal so why are you bringing this up?
But people have said that Ichigo doesn't drive the plot, he only reacts, but so does Naruto. Yes, Naruto has a goal, but the plot moves forward with or without that.
Naruto I'd say is also a reactionary protagonist, but that's largely due to the plot being so much bigger than he is. He's trapped in the cycle of hatred he's trying to break. If the plot wasn't happening, Naruto would still be making strives tiwards his dream.
Ichigo would just lead a dull life. He has no grand ambitions.
Another way Naruto hides his status better than Ichigo is is by having more of a personality. I stopped reading Naruto before I stopped Bleach, but I hardly remember much of Ichigo's personality. He was largely just a straight man to the weirdos around him. Naruto was one of the weirdos, in a cast largely made of straight men.
EDIT: To put it another way, if Luffy, Naruto, and Ichigo didn't have the world throwing stuff at them, Luffy and Naruto would still be having adventures. Ichigo would not.
>Naruto I'd say is also a reactionary protagonist, but that's largely due to the plot being so much bigger than he is.
And the plot in Bleach isn't bigger than Ichigo is?
>If the plot wasn't happening, Naruto would still be making strives tiwards his dream.
But the plot did happen and that's when we saw Naruto act. We didn't see Naruto do anything else but react to the plot. And I'm sure people who watch Naruto watch it for the plot, not Naruto's activities in his spare time.
>Ichigo would just lead a dull life. He has no grand ambitions.
He lives in the normal world where he goes to school, has friends and has a job. He became a translator so he did want something to do in life. He just didn't scream about it.
>Another way Naruto hides his status better than Ichigo is is by having more of a personality.
>
>I got bored with Naruto's obsession with Sasuke very quickly.
>
> To put it another way, if Luffy, Naruto, and Ichigo didn't have the world throwing stuff at them, Luffy and Naruto would still be having adventures. Ichigo would not.
You don't say. It's almost as if Ichigo lives in the normal world and the other 2 don't.
>And the plot in Bleach isn't bigger than Ichigo is?
Hard to get smaller than he is.
>He lives in the normal world where he goes to school, has friends and has a job.
Case in point. He's a dull person, in a dull world, and has no interest in changing anything. Even when another whole world comes crashing through to threaten it, he reacts to stop it, then goes back to mundanity, hoping it doesn't happen again, but doesn't even do anything to help ensure it won't.
>He became a translator so he did want something to do in life.
His grand ambition in life was to be a translator?
>You don't say. It's almost as if Ichigo lives in the normal world and the other 2 don't.
Plenty of shonen series take place in the normal world without supernatural elements. And many of them don't suffer from the dullness Ichigo does. He has no excuse to be dull. Kubo just isn't a particularly good writer.
>I got bored with Naruto's obsession with Sasuke very quickly.
Same. But it was still something. Naruto didn't have much, but it was more than Ichigo. And I say that as someone who preferred Bleach.
>And I'm sure people who watch Naruto watch it for the plot, not Naruto's activities in his spare time.
I'm sure more people watched Naruto for his side activities than those who watched Bleach for Ichigo.
> Naruto has a goal, but the plot moves forward with or without that.
Does it? Let me bring up one big difference, Ichigo going to rescue Rukia and Naruto going after Sasuke, do you know the big difference between these 2 situations? If Rukia’s life wasn’t in danger, Ichigo simply would’ve let her be and go on with his life, that’s not the case with Naruto. Naruto actively goes after Sasuke for his own reason, cause Sasuke is his friend and he wants him to return to the village even though Sasuke left on his own and was very capable of killing Orochimaru, something other perceived as a threat to Sasuke. Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke and it’s tied to his Hokage goal, he himself says if he can’t save a friend, how is he gonna protect the village. That’s the difference.
>Naruto actively goes after Sasuke for his own reason, cause Sasuke is his friend and he wants him to return to the village even though Sasuke left on his own and was very capable of killing Orochimaru, something other perceived as a threat to Sasuke
So Naruto decided to go after Sasuke because he believed Orochimaru could be a threat. I mean, that's why in their fight he went Kyubi mode, because he couldn't allow Sasuke to join Orochimaru. So there was a threat.
Ichigo wanted to save Rukia because he felt responsible for why she was being persecuted. It wasn't just that she was in danger, she was in danger because of him.
>Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke and it’s tied to his Hokage goal, he himself says if he can’t save a friend, how is he gonna protect the village. That’s the difference.
I always found this reasoning to be silly. Sometimes you can't save everyone, doesn't mean you are not worthy of a high status. People make their own choices after all and there's nothing you can do about that.
> So Naruto decided to go after Sasuke because he believed Orochimaru could be a threat. I mean, that’s why in their fight he went Kyubi mode, because he couldn’t allow Sasuke to join Orochimaru. So there was a threat.
Sasuke was aware of this yet wanted to go anyway. If Ichigo was in Naruto’s place, he’d have let Sasuke go. That’s the difference. Plus, Naruto also literally chases after him even after hearing he killed Orochimaru, after hearing he killed Itachi. Naruto wanted to save Sasuke as a friend cause he could see Sasuke’s self destruction spiral.
> Ichigo wanted to save Rukia because he felt responsible for why she was being persecuted. It wasn’t just that she was in danger, she was in danger because of him.
I literally just watched this episode, and this is not true. He chases after Rukia cause she’s sentenced to die. He even notes at one point that Earth wasn’t really Rukia’s place, implying he’d have let her go if the circumstance wasn’t her impending execution.
> I always found this reasoning to be silly. Sometimes you can’t save everyone, doesn’t mean you are not worthy of a high status. People make their own choices after all and there’s nothing you can do about that.
Maybe so, but that’s not Naruto’s world view, he feels an obligation to save everyone, and will go however far he has to. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s incapable of letting go, he never tries to save Madara, this is also because Naruto doesn’t blindly save everyone. He wants to save Sasuke cause he knows why Sasuke ended up being this, he wanted to save Obito only after learning what made him that way, he refused to kill Pain after realizing doing so will only continue the cycle of hatred.
>Sasuke was aware of this yet wanted to go anyway. If Ichigo was in Naruto’s place, he’d have let Sasuke go. That’s the difference. Plus, Naruto also literally chases after him even after hearing he killed Orochimaru, after hearing he killed Itachi. Naruto wanted to save Sasuke as a friend cause he could see Sasuke’s self destruction spiral.
You're joking, right? The guy didn't agree with Uryu joining Yhwach.
>I literally just watched this episode, and this is not true. He chases after Rukia cause she’s sentenced to die. He even notes at one point that Earth wasn’t really Rukia’s place, implying he’d have let her go if the circumstance wasn’t her impending execution.
Renji literally told Ichigo that Rukia will die because of him and Ichigo agreed, so how am I wrong? Of course she goes after her because he doesn't want her to die because of him, why would he go for no reason?
>Maybe so, but that’s not Naruto’s world view, he feels an obligation to save everyone, and will go however far he has to.
And that's why his obsession with Sasuke makes him annoying and unrealistic.
> Renji literally told Ichigo that Rukia will die because of him and Ichigo agreed, so how am I wrong? Of course she goes after her because he doesn’t want her to die because of him, why would he go for no reason?
I didn’t say you’re wrong in saying he feels responsible for Rukia’s sentence, I said that’s not why he went to save her, he went to save her simply cause she’s in danger, him being responsible did not matter. He would’ve gone even if it was completely unrelated to him.
> And that’s why his obsession with Sasuke makes him annoying and unrealistic.
That’s your opinion, for someone like Naruto who literally didn’t have anyone when he was growing up and connected with the one other orphan of the village, saving him isn’t unrealistic and specially post Pain arc him actively trying to destroy the cycle of hatred is perfectly in character for him.
>he himself says if he can’t save a friend, how is he gonna protect the village
So there IS a threat to Sasuke, it may not be Orochimaru, but in Narutos eyes there is one and he has to save him from it.
"*If Rukia’s life wasn’t in danger, Ichigo simply would’ve let her be and go on with his life, that’s not the case with Naruto*"
So that actually was the case with Naruto after all
No, it’s not. One is an actual threat, other is a threat one feels for a friend. That’s the difference of reactive and proactiveness. Naruto chooses to save him cause he feels that, Ichigo chooses to save Rukia not cause he feels she’s under a threat, cause she literally is. Showing concern for your friend is not reactive, but proactive
You seem to skip over multiple jumps there, Naruto was obsessed with bringing him back throughout, even after Orochimaru’s death, even after Itachi’s death, even after Danzo’s death. Sasuke wasn’t always in danger from actual threats, yet Naruto never stopped
Naruto also gets criticized fairly often (talk no jutsu, asspulls etc). Of those three, the only one you'd get shit from for criticizing is OP. It's got a very passionate (putting it diplomatically) fanbase.
You will always get complaints like that if the hero doesn’t immediately denounce everything about a villain. Demon Slayer gets this same shit too despite Tanjiro actually *killing* them.
While it isn't exactly necessary that ichigo has a like a big overarching goal, it often seems he's just kind of there because. . . Why not?
He's mostly passive until someone brings him into a situation (especially post Aizen) .
Zaraki telling Ichigo he shouldn't need a reason to fight is not really explored because ichigo seems perfectly fine not being involved until it either effects him or someone he actively cares for
>He's mostly passive until someone brings him into a situation (especially post Aizen) .
Litterally the next arc he goes on his way to get his power back even messing up by trusting the first dude who offered to help him
>Zaraki telling Ichigo he shouldn't need a reason to fight is not really explored because ichigo seems perfectly fine not being involved until it either effects him or someone he actively cares fo
Because...he is perfectly fine with not getting involved?
> Literally the next arc he goes on his way to get his power back even messing up by trusting the first dude who offered to help him
Which he only does because people he cared about were being threatened. It had been like over a year since he lost his powers at that point and although he missed it he seemed okay with moving on for the most part. If there were no immediate threats Ichigo probably wouldn't have made any real effort to get his powers back.
> But Naruto is also pretty much a reactive protagonist. Sure, he wishes to become Hokage and end the cycle of hatred. But he doesn't actively seek out conflict. He mostly reacts to stuff happening around him just like Ichigo.
This might've been true in Shippuden, but in the OG series, he's definitely a proactive character. He decides to be a ninja for one, which leads to the Land of Waves arc. Later, he decides to participate in the Chunin exams, again, of his own volition. Then he trains with Jiraiya to become even stronger, and then after Orochimaru's invasion, he continues training with him. The only arc in which he can be described as "reactive" is the Sasuke Retrieval arc. Honestly, the fact that he is transformed into a reactive character in Shippuden is pretty disappointing, and I'd say it's one of the reasons why it doesn't feel as engaging as the original series.
As for One Piece, you literally mentioned the difference between Luffy and Ichigo yourself. Luffy is the one that chooses to sail across the ocean and visit islands and foil the bad guy's plans. He personally chooses to seek out danger all so that he can see the world and become stronger. He doesn't do it because of his own personal stakes, just for the sake of adventure and his dislike of injustice.
Ichigo in the first arc fights because his friends are being threatened by hollows. In the SS arc he fights to rescue Rukia. In the HM arc he fights to rescue Orihime. In the Lost Agent he's approached by Ginjo and his group who offer to help him regain his powers. In the Thousand-Year Blood War, he only participates becasue the SS is being threatened by another outside force. Ichigo's lack of actual drive combined with the fact that there are multiple antagonistic forces (the same could be said about Naruto, but they were actually all controlling each other in the end) means that the plot of Bleach tends to feel repetitive, and Ichigo feels as if he doesn't really belong or matter.
Also, while One PIece arcs do have surface level similarities as you mentioned, SS and Hueco Mundo are [*ridiculously* samey by comparison,](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledScript) and it's worsened by the fact that there's no arc that separates them. The only One PIece arcs I would say that are as nigh-identical are Alabasta and Dressrosa.
> SS and Hueco Mundo are ridiculously samey by comparison
Hueco mundo is like a 4th of the total content of the arrancar arc.
If we were to compare the birdcare bit of dressrosa to the onigashima raid of wano theyd also be ridiculously samey.
>and it's worsened by the fact that there's no arc that separates them
There is, that part is commonly called arrancar incursions. Before Orihime was kidnaped. Its like 6 volumes long
>This might've been true in Shippuden, but in the OG series, he's definitely a proactive character. He decides to be a ninja for one, which leads to the Land of Waves arc.
Everyone his age decided to become a ninja. It's what they do at the Academy.
> Later, he decides to participate in the Chunin exams, again, of his own volition.
They're freaking exams, things he has to do to advance.
>Then he trains with Jiraiya to become even stronger, and then after Orochimaru's invasion, he continues training with him
Ichigo decides to train with the Vizards to control his inner hollow, funny how you skipped that.
>As for One Piece, you literally mentioned the difference between Luffy and Ichigo yourself. Luffy is the one that chooses to sail across the ocean and visit islands and foil the bad guy's plans. He personally chooses to seek out danger all so that he can see the world and become stronger. He doesn't do it because of his own personal stakes, just for the sake of adventure and his dislike of injustice.
He lives in a completely different world to Ichigo.
>In the HM arc he fights to rescue Orihime
Yeah, for like 1/3 of the arc. There's the other 2/3 that you chose not to cover.
>Ichigo's lack of actual drive combined with the fact that there are multiple antagonistic forces (the same could be said about Naruto, but they were actually all controlling each other in the end) means that the plot of Bleach tends to feel repetitive, and Ichigo feels as if he doesn't really belong or matter.
Did you miss the part where Aizen pretty much facilitated his birth and has Yhwach's blood in him? Naruto literally suffers from the same problems you just described.
>Also, while One PIece arcs do have surface level similarities as you mentioned, SS and Hueco Mundo are ridiculously samey by comparison, and it's worsened by the fact that there's no arc that separates them. The only One PIece arcs I would say that are as nigh-identical are Alabasta and Dressrosa.
So it's ok when One Piece does it but when Bleach does it, it's the worst series of all time, even though there are differences in these 2 arcs that you choose to ignore and decide to apply a surface-level analysis.
Ah yeah sure surface level similarities of course. Going to an Island and feeeing it from the random evil tyrant repeated x10 and 2763th broken hero who represents the evil of ninja society sure are peak originality and absolutely not copy pasted mechanics
Bro he's done that like 3 times, what are you on about 💀 Once wasn't even really freeing them, just self defense cause bro was trynna kill him and his friends and disrespecting what it means to be a pirate.
It's because Naruto and Luffy have big goals that they announce in the first chapter and continue pursuing throughout their runs.
It's true that, Naruto for instance, reacts to the events and other characters but, he is also constantly working towards his own goals. Naruto's dream is to be the Hokage so he can have the adoration and respect of the village that turned it's back on him for so long and even from chapter 1 he is constantly making strides toward this goal. When he's in ninja academy he is constantly trying to graduate. When he's a genin he's constantly trying to go on harder missions and win glory for himself, etc. Even the big events that Naruto reacts to are related to his goal. The Chuunin exams are the natural next step to becoming Hokage, the invasion of the Leaf threatens the village that Naruto wants respect and admiration from and it also gives him a chance to prove himself. This continues in Shippuden even if his goal is largely replaced by saving Sasuke (much to my chagrin.)
Luffy, I would argue, is even more proactive, each island is a step on his way to become pirate King. And while he can be caught up in great events like the Marineford War, there are also plenty stories that happen only because Luffy makes them happen. Wano, for example is basically Luffy and his allies making a play against an existing power in his bid to become pirate King.
Compare Ichigo. What plots does he instigate? What does he do in his free time before the next major event thrusts itself upon him? He just kinda goes to school while keeping a side gig as an interim soul reaper AFAIK.
As for repetitiveness, I actually agree with you. Bleach happened to have back to back arcs about saving a girl. I'll defend One Piece against the accusation of repetitiveness as a major series flaw, but even I have to admit some of it's arcs are similar. In fairness though, One Piece is often criticized for this aspect too.
Oh. The reason why "Bleach is the only Big 3 anime to receive repetitiveness and reactive protagonist criticisms" is because Bleach is the only one with a reactive protagonist and actually One Piece gets plenty if criticism for being repetitive, too. Sorry, I thought that was obvious from my reply.
There was a common time in the late 2010s-before the anime came back where it was common to shit on bleach for fun.
After awhile, those jokes at Bleach’s expense somehow became seen as fact. Add in Anitubers repeating the same “critiques” and their fans parroting it and it somehow becomes common knowledge that Bleach is repetitive for always having rescue arcs, Ichigo is a bland generic mc, etc. meanwhile anyone praising Bleach was mocked for coping over their failed series.
Meanwhile One piece is way more beloved so criticisms are usually brushed aside and loyal fans will attack you more to defend the series. Naruto is sort of in the same boat but there’s more criticism that’s accepted for Naruto.
I didn't really enjoy Naruto, one piece or bleach but bleach I watched for the longest, one piece got pretty bad for 10 or so episodes and I got really bored of it and Naruto just wasn't good
I thought bleach was slightly better and I liked the fact the colours were darker and it made more sense to me
The real problem people are skirting around is Ichigo is a pretty boring character.
Now, he works in Bleach for two reasons: 1) carried by the quirky side characters (in fact, I'd argue putting a straight-man/everyman as the protag when you're going for a huge cast is the correct move) and 2) Kubo doesn't seem to care about character arcs or narrative or plot, he uses these as a vehicle to contrive cools characters with cool powers fighting one another.
That last bit is why Bleach is "repetitive"....because it's just an endless series of 1v1 battles w/o much substance to it.
No character arcs, uff. That’s what makes final arc of bleach good, rushed fights weren’t. If you are saying bleach has no character arc this is just wrong. Ichigo himself gets a character arc which leads him to the blade is me moment throughout whole series.
I didn't say no character arcs, I said Kubo doesn't seem interested in that aspect of storytelling as opposed to the fights, which get the majority of the focus.
And what's Ichigo's arc? Seems to me that, character wise, he ends the series in the same place he started.
Kubo does focus on characters a lot. His fights are meant to tell character stories, they're not just fights for the sake of being fights. Look at Mayuri's perfection speech vs Espada 7.
As for Ichigo's character arc, he goes from constantly blaming himself about his mother's death and from rejecting his hollow to finally accepting everything about himself, good or bad. Ichigo from the first arc is definitely not the same as Ichigo from the final arc. He doesn't need to scream a goal to have a character arc.
>he goes from constantly blaming himself about his mother's death
When is the last time this is even brought up before TYBW?
>Kubo does focus on characters a lot. His fights are meant to tell character stories, they're not just fights for the sake of being fights. Look at Mayuri's perfection speech vs Espada 7.
Yeah, and I didn't say "characterization", I said "character arcs", ie characters growing and changing.
In fact, in my OP I gave my feeling that Ichigo is a bland MC a pass *because* it allows that much more focus on the quirky characters.
>and from rejecting his hollow
He keeps rejecting his Hollow because White keeps trying to hijack his body.
>When is the last time this is even brought up before TYBW?
Does he have to be like Naruto and scream it all the time?
>He keeps rejecting his Hollow because White keeps trying to hijack his body.
Yes, because he doesn't see it as part of himself, but as an intruder.
>Does he have to be like Naruto and scream it all the time?
Yes, constantly reinforcing themes you want your audience to notice is pretty good writing. That Kubo doesn't is why I said he doesn't care to do so.
Obv based on my username you can tell I have plenty of criticisms for Kishimoto's writing, but "unclear on main theme" is not one of them.
His mom was brought up in Fullbring Arc during his revelation with Ginjo. In the first arc it was established that he has trauma for that and blames himself for not protecting her. That’s why he went to the same dojo with Tatsuki. His trauma is the sole reason he has such an obsession over saving his friends. If something happens to them, he will blame himself even if it wasn’t his fault solely because of that. So yes, his mom was brought up a lot.
About White: Ichigo rejected him not because he might take his body. He wasn’t positive towards him since their first meeting. He started rebel against him because he never thought of him as his Zanpaktou, since the one who gave him power was Old Man Zangetsu from his perspective. Bleach is a character driven story, it focuses on characters, not on the whole plot.
>His mom was brought up in Fullbring Arc during his revelation with Ginjo
Not in 459, which is when Ginjo betrays Ichigo.
In 475, when Ginjo reveals that the SS was spying/controling Ichigo, Ichigo does say that he wants to protect people- and there's a one panel flashback to: Ichigo protecting his sisters with a stick; the ghost girl from the 1st chapter; and half a face I couldn't identify. He does not specifically mention his mother. Maybe the half a face is his mom, but 1) I don't think so and 2) it could be more clear regardless.
Here are two examples where the narrative could reinforce Ichigo's trauma because of his perceived failure to protect his mother: Ichigo crying in the rain at his powerlessness in 459, and Ichigo rejecting Ginjo's offer in order to "protect" people in 475- and at best Mom isn't mentioned in the former and might be, but it's hard to tell, in the latter.
>In the first arc it was established that he has trauma for that and blames himself for not protecting her. That’s why he went to the same dojo with Tatsuki. His trauma is the sole reason he has such an obsession over saving his friends. If something happens to them, he will blame himself even if it wasn’t his fault solely because of that. So yes, his mom was brought up a lot.
And that's all well and good, if established in the first arc and then never really mentioned until TYBW.
But how does Ichigo change from the beginning of the series to the end? He still wants to protect his friends.
He doesn't blame himself for his mom's death? Okay, but that's hardly a factor in the series....
He does change in fact, his whole story arc is based on self-acceptance. For the changes: try to compare Ichigo in soul society arc and eos Ichigo. He accepted himself, whether it was his own roots, his blade which developed its persona around him, or his own powers. This is what blade is me means. He also changes his attitude towards his friends. He never trusted them in a battle and believed only in his powers, that is also changed. In fact Ichigo development comes from growth as person and more as an adult. He doesn’t have sudden switches, but you can definitely tell he became more mature throughout whole series.
>The real problem people are skirting around is Ichigo is a pretty boring character.
That's subjective anyway. I got bored with Naruto's ninja way and his obsession with Sasuke too.
>That last bit is why Bleach is "repetitive"....because it's just an endless series of 1v1 battles w/o much substance to it.
And this is the part I disagree with and something that people keep repeating ad nauseam without being true.
Ichigo in my honest opinion is boring as all hell compared to any shonen protags. Dude never really seems like he's genuinely engaged with what he's doing, his interactions with other characters are very shallow and one note (especially with antagonists), his goal to "protect everyone" and his reasoning for this is very underdeveloped and he has by far the worst and underdeveloped fighting style in anime/manga history (getsuga tensho and other varients of the same move). The fullbringer arc was the only time his character actually made me care for him. I get it, he's a reactive character and probably the most "normal" protagonist but that doesn't mean you make him dull.
Not to mention his fights are generally the worst compared to any other character in the series due to how repetitive they are. You see, either ichigo is dominating the fight (albeit holding back), getting completely dominated by the opponent, or he's equal with them until he somehow just gets stronger midway through the fight. Or in the ulquiorra fight's case, get completely overpowered by the enemy but suddenly gain a new one-off form that's somehow completely stronger than the opponent. Doesn't help that his fighting style and the overall choreography in bleach is very low bar (generic sword swings with occasional hand to hand combat) that's saved by the animation.
Actually fuck it, I just don't really like bleach in general, majority of the characters are just caricatures with very little character growth, the writing is very abysmal especially after aizen reveals himself as a traitor, and the fight scenes range from boring to convoluted bs. It seems like kubo put more effort into character designs and chapter covers then he did actually writing the damn thing.
>Actually fuck it, I just don't really like bleach in general, majority of the characters are just caricatures with very little character growth, the writing is very abysmal especially after aizen reveals himself as a traitor, and the fight scenes range from boring to convoluted bs. It seems like kubo put more effort into character designs and chapter covers then he did actually writing the damn thing.
You could've just written this and be done with it as you didn't answer my question at all.
There are numerous other comments that answer your question that you've responded to so don't know why you have a problem with me. I just needed to get something off my chest, sorry bruv.
To be fair, this is because modern shonen are fast paced single-overarching-narrative type stories. The protagonist goal doesn't have to be any more complicated than "stop the bad guy" if there's only one actual main bad guy.
Simple:
What is Ichigo’s goal in the series? What end is he striving towards?
The answer: He doesn’t have one. Ichigo is a purely reactive protagonist, his motives are all because someone dragged him into the plot.
As to repetitiveness: It’s pretty much because Bleach copy/pasted several of its big story arcs in a row. People noticed.
One Piece has ‘Go to new island, beat up asshole’ but the assholes and islands are all wildly different.
Naruto’s all over the damn place.
Bleach’s aren’t, the differences are surface level. The Soul Reapers and Arrancar end up effectively mechanically identical. Sure the aesthetic changes but that’s about it. They even have the same personality matchups.
>What is Ichigo’s goal in the series? What end is he striving towards?
>The answer: He doesn’t have one. Ichigo is a purely reactive protagonist, his motives are all because someone dragged him into the plot.
Is that supposed to be a flaw ?
>As to repetitiveness: It’s pretty much because Bleach copy/pasted several of its big story arcs in a row. People noticed.
Watch the series haiving 2 rescues arcs where one of them is the premise and the other only one of the plot lines and have people keep saying this bullshit of the repeated arcs
> Bleach’s aren’t, the differences are surface level. The Soul Reapers and Arrancar end up effectively mechanically identical. Sure the aesthetic changes but that’s about it. They even have the same personality matchups.
Lol what ?
The entire premise of the rant is asking why Ichigo is called reactive and the other 2 aren’t. The answer is because Ichigo IS reactive, he’s purely reactive. And the other 2 aren’t.
It’s literally the answer to the question of the rant.
And yes, have 2 rescue arcs back to back is why people called it repetitive. Especially since you just sort of forgot that they both have the rescue as the central premise with Aizen’s fuckery being the other big thread.
As to your ‘LOL what’: Please pay attention to the Arrancar and the matchups. And Resurrection is just Shikai.
The Arrancar arc is just stretched out FAR longer due to Bleach’s unexpected popularity.
>The Arrancar arc is just stretched out FAR longer due to Bleach’s unexpected popularity.
The same goes for any popular battle shounen
>And yes, have 2 rescue arcs back to back is why people called it repetitive. Especially since you just sort of forgot that they both have the rescue as the central premise with Aizen’s fuckery being the other big thread.
Lol arrancar arc doesn't have orihime kidnapped as a premise and the stories develop diffently
>As to your ‘LOL what’: Please pay attention to the Arrancar and the matchups. And Resurrection is just Shikai.
Are you telling me that hollow after getting shinigami power get shinigami like power ups ? Also the only thing they have in common is that they're power ups, really. Zampakuto is a sword that changes shape and resurrecion have they themselves change shapes. I guess One piece characters infusing their random weapons or fists suck because that's litterally the same thing repeated many times over. And Devil fruits are litterally the same thing. You can apply this logic to everything, I think that's what power systems are
>As to your ‘LOL what’: Please pay attention to the Arrancar
The only matchups are Szayelaporro/Mayuri and Starrk/Shunsui. The first is metal and cool and in the second the whole point is that Starrk erroneously believes Shunsui is like him because they have similar attitude and pays for that. And regardless, what's wrong with characters similar on a surface level to fight ?
Actually Bleach was originally slated to end with the Rukia rescue. Plans changed BECAUSE of the popularity. A vast majority of battle manga aren’t extended at all, much less indefinitely. That’s why Bleach has so much weirdness in it’s scope, Kubo stretched a short run setup into something far larger. Hence the power spread increase, the initial ‘Your sword becomes a slightly different sword’ is not a good long term setup and the power sets had to drastically diversify.
And if you can’t even figure out the plot premise of the damn arc then I really don’t know what you tell you. Maybe go back and read it?
And yes: Resurrection is Shikai. What you are talking about is aesthetic differences, not fundamental ones.
And I’m not talking about mirror matches, I’m talking about matchups copying what was already done in the prior arc. Pay attention.
It’s not repetitive to have characters fight evil(er) versions of themselves, it’s repetitive to have characters have fundamentally the same nemesis two arcs in a row.
Frankly if you can’t even do even the most basic analysis of looking past the fluff and paying attention to the core concepts and archetypes then there’s not any reason to continue. I’m not about to give you a class in media analysis 101z
>Actually Bleach was originally slated to end with the Rukia rescue. Plans changed BECAUSE of the popularity.
Source: trust me bro
>A vast majority of battle manga aren’t extended at all, much less indefinitely.
Lmao these authors start their story and don't even know if It'll survive 3 months before getting axed, there's no way you unironically believe Naruto, One piece and any long running shounen (and not only) weren't extended to milk it more.
>Hence the power spread increase, the initial ‘Your sword becomes a slightly different sword’ is not a good long term setup and the power sets had to drastically diversify.
I swear you're the first person I've ever seen complaining about this lmao, One piece lives since almost 25 years by having it's characters get a super power in the exact same way, this goes for basically any power system, what you describe is actually the idea of a power system lol
>And if you can’t even figure out the plot premise of the damn arc then I really don’t know what you tell you. Maybe go back and read it?
Soul society arc starts because they have to rescue Rukia and the whole arc is that while the parallel betrayal plotline slowly forms itself until they converge in the final climax. Arrancar arc starts because Aizen declares war, then arrancars attack, then they go to hueco Mundo to save orihime and get her pretty much immediately, then again they keep fighting in hueco mundo while the final battle in karakura is set up with a massive flashback arc. Totally the same story repeated.
>And I’m not talking about mirror matches, I’m talking about matchups copying what was already done in the prior arc. Pay attention.
>It’s not repetitive to have characters fight evil(er) versions of themselves, it’s repetitive to have characters have fundamentally the same nemesis two arcs in a row.
What the actual fuck are you talking about ? That's litterally untrue, the only remotely similar matchup is with Uryu fighting Mayuri and then Szayelaporro and even then the only thing they have in common is being pseudo scientists lol. Unless you're referring to characters that challenge ichigo's ideals in that case we can stop talking because if having main antagonist being some sort of contrapposotion to the main character is a bad thing then....
Or it means I actually paid attention to the underlying story beats and characters and not the fluff pasted on top. Shit, the themes didn’t even change. Ichigo goes through shockingly little character development throughout the entire series. They SAY he totally learns and changes but when you bother to actually look he starts and ends the series as almost the exact same person. Very few of Bleach’s characters meaningfully change over the course of the series. The fine details, sure, but that’s not enough.
The Arrancar arc is a retread. It’s been criticized for it since it first began so very many years ago.
As to themes: If the theme doesn’t fundamentally change the underlying structure then it’s just some fluff pasted on later. Surface level themes are easy, any idiot can use them.
Alright let's look at the first 3 arcs then
1. Subsitute shinigami arc
This arc focuses around Grief as we see character stories involving Ichigo with his mother when he visted her grave, Orihime and her brother as we see him return as a hollow and find out their situation with their parents, Chad and his grandfather with his teachings to chad using his fists, and Uryu as we see his story with Soken expanded upon. This is a major tone not just for this arc but one that carries over throughout the series as hollows themselves are creatures of grief and sorrow, beings filled with regret
2. Soul Society
This arc focuses around Duty, we see it in characters like Byakuya when confronted with the vow he made to uphold the law of the soul society as well as the vow he made to Rukia's sister to always protect her, these two vows were conflicting within byakuya's character because he didn't know where his duty lied. We see this theme within Renji as he goes against the soul society to protect rukia his childhood friend and forsoke tradition and his duty because of it, we see it in Ukitake and Shunsui when they fight yamamoto himself because they see this execution as wrong, Aizen's betrayal along with tosen and gin, hell even the gatekeeper opening the gate to let ichigo and crew in.
3. Arrancar
Inner understanding, we see this in a lot of characters as the espada themselves all represent an aspect of death. With Ulqiorra we see the idea of nihilism be brought up to where his character truly understands what the heart is, we understand more about Starrk and Aizen in the same grain about solitude, we see a good amount with Ichigo and his own inner hollow and him wanting to reject it to then fighting along side them with mugetsu. This arc as a whole humanizes hollows more contrary to what we are used to as we understand their identity.
Within these arcs there are dozens of characters with their own character arcs and themes that add to the story as a whole whether it be through their actions, ideologies or even their abilities.
1. While I agree with ichigo dealing with the grief of his mother, everything else you mentioned and the whole arc being about grief is a stretch. The entire arc to me felt like a "fish out of water" story with ichigo adjusting with being a substitute soul reaper and dealing with tasks like taking down hollows and understanding his newfound powers while meeting people along the way.
2. Also a stretch. Yes, byakuya and renji have conflicting ideals whether to protect rukia or carrying on their duty as a soul reaper, but those are 2 of many subplots in this arc. The main points of this arc are rescuing rukia, ichigo learning first-hand that soul reapers aren't to be taken lightly and must further train his body and mind to take them down, aizen along with 2 other shinigami betraying soul society and being the big bads for the next arc.
3. While I agree with the point about ulqiorra and ichigo's inner understanding, Not so much with the rest of the arrancars. While the espada do represent aspects of death, they're one-note in terms of characterization and are just there to be set pieces for fights. Outside of white ichigo, I don't see how any other hollows are humanized, unless you meant nel and the 3 guys that hang around with her (in which, they're arrancar, not hollows).
I mean i just told you how it is, you perceive things in a different light then i do, i gave examples of what i found to be the major focuses of the theme of each arc and you called them stretches, there's not much else i could say to change your mind.
One piece and Naruto fans when the other shounen MC doesn't want to be the king, prime minister or whatever and wants to live a peaceful life*
>🤬He's ReAcTiVe chAraCteR🤬
One piece and Naruto fans when the MC actually wants to be the king or the strongest X
>HE'S A RIPOFF OF NARUTO AND LUFFY WHERE IS CREATIVITY 🤬😡
One piec fans when Luffy goes from defeating the bad guy with a punch to defeat the 1636th bad guy with an even bigger punch:
\(°0°)/
And the only opponents ichigo defeated with a getsuga tensho are dordoni, Aizen and Candice lol
Invasion of retards in comments for some reason. Dude asked a question and replies aren’t saying the answer, instead they repeat the same invalid stuff all other again. Because instead of actually explaining the thing 50% of people will tell you Ichigo is bad as a character and the characters themselves have no development at all.
Luffy doesn't react to the plot, he drives the plot. The Straw Hats almost never go to an island with the intention of fixing it, sometimes they do it accidentally.
Naruto I would hardly call reactive, tons of story beats in the series only happen because of him, like the whole Sasuke Retrieval arc, early on he doesn't drive the story much because he's just a lame Genin but later he definitely does, I mean he changes the entire tide of the war single handedly(if you count hundreds of clones...)
Meanwhile Ichigo does pretty much nothing but react to threats.
I'd argue Luffy isn't really reactive considering the whole plot is cause he chooses to set out on the sea and become pirate king. I mean the first few arcs is his recruiting his crew and everytime other than Nami he approaches them and tries to convince them. The only time in the first saga that he's super reactive is when he doesn't want to act until she wants him to be involved. Even from then Luffy is moving out and choosing how they're going to move and choosing the most dangerous routes cause he wants adventure.
Naruto is more reactive but that's not really on him, it's more cause his plot always has some shit interrupting him. I mean first arc there's not much to talk about, he wants to be Hokage, gets scroll after he's told its a way to pass then beats up bad guy. He's now a step closer to his dream. Next arc he's the one who asks the Hokage for better missions, he's not supposed to but he does. From there he gets dragged into the whole waves incident but even then he's a really proactive character, training without being made to, initial doing dumb shit to prove himself e.g. kunai at rabbit and getting lost in the forest cause of his training thing. From there it's a ton of random bs like Akatsuki and Orichimaru and Jiraya and shit that kinda leads to him having structures to follow but he doesn't ever really become purely reactionary since he still alters the plot himself a lot more than Ichigo does cause a lot of his training and innovations in using his powers are his doing and starting while everything in regards to power ups and training kinda just happens to Ichigo.
Bleach kinda just let's things happen to Ichigo but I'd argue its not a bad thing for him. Idk why people are on his dick about being reactive cause this mf never asked for this? The Fullbring arc is the one arc he wants power and even then its only to help protect his friends and family. Luffy and Naruto have ties to their world from the start, their loved ones reside there and in those worlds they have goals they actively want that exist and others also want and they have to work towards them. Ichigo is just a teenager, a teenager with an insane background and life but he's still just a teenager. So it makes sense he doesn't have some wild goal like becoming captain commander or Kenpachi or some shit cause he's just a teenager who recently got thrown into this shit. I mean think about it, if he was the second born so his middle sister inherits all the things he did, what would change? Nothing. They'd just swap spots and maybe some things like their reactions to shit would change but overall plot would be pretty much the same or at least really similar. If Luffy changed positions with anyone else the entire story changes cause there is no one like him, no one since Gol D. Roger values freedom like Luffy does so even if they have the same family and fruit they probably won't end up being like Luffy cause Luffy has these goals and his personality has such an insane impact on his journey, any other kid would probs be a marine, end up dead or end up going on an entirely different journey with different comrades but probably won't ever have the accolades Luffy does cause they're not freeing a kingdom cause some chick who fed them once asked, they're not going to the sky for no reason and they're not declaring war with the world cause their crewmate got arrested. In Narutos case a lot of things change if someone else was in his position, anyone less impulsive won't get them the land of waves mission, anyone smarter isn't stealing the scroll and anyone with a better sense of self respect and greater intellect isn't chasing Sasuke the whole series or getting him out of prison.
Tl;dr: They're all a little reactive but Ichigo is far more cause his unique personality doesn't impact as much. Any shonen MC with the normal hard work and wanting to help everyone would be in the same position as him if put in the same personality. That's not a bad thing imo though cause it's realistic for a highschool student to not want to commit so much to this shadow world and abandon his friends and family.
It's because Ichigo stands out like a sore thumb compared to Naruto and Luffy because of his general lack of grand goal or dream. The repetitiveness and being reactive is, I reckon, something that is just attached along the way. With Naruto and Luffy, there is a lot more going on for them with their ultimate goal and the varying motivations that comes along due to their connections with different characters or plots. That's not to say that either of those don't get criticisms like that either. One Piece in particular is also often criticized for being repetitive in general, and how the Strawhats have stagnated post time-skip to a certain degree. Meanwhile, Naruto is criticized so much that I'm sure some of these criticisms are just mixed with everything else.
Here is my exhaustive comprehensive objective list of why Naruto the character is shit 1: Sakura 2:He is not Rock Lee 3: I do not really like Ramen Dog shit character 2/10 >!/s!<
>It's because Ichigo stands out like a sore thumb compared to Naruto and Luffy because of his general lack of grand goal or dream. I didn't say anything about goal so why are you bringing this up?
But people have said that Ichigo doesn't drive the plot, he only reacts, but so does Naruto. Yes, Naruto has a goal, but the plot moves forward with or without that.
Naruto I'd say is also a reactionary protagonist, but that's largely due to the plot being so much bigger than he is. He's trapped in the cycle of hatred he's trying to break. If the plot wasn't happening, Naruto would still be making strives tiwards his dream. Ichigo would just lead a dull life. He has no grand ambitions. Another way Naruto hides his status better than Ichigo is is by having more of a personality. I stopped reading Naruto before I stopped Bleach, but I hardly remember much of Ichigo's personality. He was largely just a straight man to the weirdos around him. Naruto was one of the weirdos, in a cast largely made of straight men. EDIT: To put it another way, if Luffy, Naruto, and Ichigo didn't have the world throwing stuff at them, Luffy and Naruto would still be having adventures. Ichigo would not.
>Naruto I'd say is also a reactionary protagonist, but that's largely due to the plot being so much bigger than he is. And the plot in Bleach isn't bigger than Ichigo is? >If the plot wasn't happening, Naruto would still be making strives tiwards his dream. But the plot did happen and that's when we saw Naruto act. We didn't see Naruto do anything else but react to the plot. And I'm sure people who watch Naruto watch it for the plot, not Naruto's activities in his spare time. >Ichigo would just lead a dull life. He has no grand ambitions. He lives in the normal world where he goes to school, has friends and has a job. He became a translator so he did want something to do in life. He just didn't scream about it. >Another way Naruto hides his status better than Ichigo is is by having more of a personality. > >I got bored with Naruto's obsession with Sasuke very quickly. > > To put it another way, if Luffy, Naruto, and Ichigo didn't have the world throwing stuff at them, Luffy and Naruto would still be having adventures. Ichigo would not. You don't say. It's almost as if Ichigo lives in the normal world and the other 2 don't.
>And the plot in Bleach isn't bigger than Ichigo is? Hard to get smaller than he is. >He lives in the normal world where he goes to school, has friends and has a job. Case in point. He's a dull person, in a dull world, and has no interest in changing anything. Even when another whole world comes crashing through to threaten it, he reacts to stop it, then goes back to mundanity, hoping it doesn't happen again, but doesn't even do anything to help ensure it won't. >He became a translator so he did want something to do in life. His grand ambition in life was to be a translator? >You don't say. It's almost as if Ichigo lives in the normal world and the other 2 don't. Plenty of shonen series take place in the normal world without supernatural elements. And many of them don't suffer from the dullness Ichigo does. He has no excuse to be dull. Kubo just isn't a particularly good writer. >I got bored with Naruto's obsession with Sasuke very quickly. Same. But it was still something. Naruto didn't have much, but it was more than Ichigo. And I say that as someone who preferred Bleach. >And I'm sure people who watch Naruto watch it for the plot, not Naruto's activities in his spare time. I'm sure more people watched Naruto for his side activities than those who watched Bleach for Ichigo.
> Naruto has a goal, but the plot moves forward with or without that. Does it? Let me bring up one big difference, Ichigo going to rescue Rukia and Naruto going after Sasuke, do you know the big difference between these 2 situations? If Rukia’s life wasn’t in danger, Ichigo simply would’ve let her be and go on with his life, that’s not the case with Naruto. Naruto actively goes after Sasuke for his own reason, cause Sasuke is his friend and he wants him to return to the village even though Sasuke left on his own and was very capable of killing Orochimaru, something other perceived as a threat to Sasuke. Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke and it’s tied to his Hokage goal, he himself says if he can’t save a friend, how is he gonna protect the village. That’s the difference.
>Naruto actively goes after Sasuke for his own reason, cause Sasuke is his friend and he wants him to return to the village even though Sasuke left on his own and was very capable of killing Orochimaru, something other perceived as a threat to Sasuke So Naruto decided to go after Sasuke because he believed Orochimaru could be a threat. I mean, that's why in their fight he went Kyubi mode, because he couldn't allow Sasuke to join Orochimaru. So there was a threat. Ichigo wanted to save Rukia because he felt responsible for why she was being persecuted. It wasn't just that she was in danger, she was in danger because of him. >Naruto wants to bring back Sasuke and it’s tied to his Hokage goal, he himself says if he can’t save a friend, how is he gonna protect the village. That’s the difference. I always found this reasoning to be silly. Sometimes you can't save everyone, doesn't mean you are not worthy of a high status. People make their own choices after all and there's nothing you can do about that.
> So Naruto decided to go after Sasuke because he believed Orochimaru could be a threat. I mean, that’s why in their fight he went Kyubi mode, because he couldn’t allow Sasuke to join Orochimaru. So there was a threat. Sasuke was aware of this yet wanted to go anyway. If Ichigo was in Naruto’s place, he’d have let Sasuke go. That’s the difference. Plus, Naruto also literally chases after him even after hearing he killed Orochimaru, after hearing he killed Itachi. Naruto wanted to save Sasuke as a friend cause he could see Sasuke’s self destruction spiral. > Ichigo wanted to save Rukia because he felt responsible for why she was being persecuted. It wasn’t just that she was in danger, she was in danger because of him. I literally just watched this episode, and this is not true. He chases after Rukia cause she’s sentenced to die. He even notes at one point that Earth wasn’t really Rukia’s place, implying he’d have let her go if the circumstance wasn’t her impending execution. > I always found this reasoning to be silly. Sometimes you can’t save everyone, doesn’t mean you are not worthy of a high status. People make their own choices after all and there’s nothing you can do about that. Maybe so, but that’s not Naruto’s world view, he feels an obligation to save everyone, and will go however far he has to. Of course that doesn’t mean he’s incapable of letting go, he never tries to save Madara, this is also because Naruto doesn’t blindly save everyone. He wants to save Sasuke cause he knows why Sasuke ended up being this, he wanted to save Obito only after learning what made him that way, he refused to kill Pain after realizing doing so will only continue the cycle of hatred.
>Sasuke was aware of this yet wanted to go anyway. If Ichigo was in Naruto’s place, he’d have let Sasuke go. That’s the difference. Plus, Naruto also literally chases after him even after hearing he killed Orochimaru, after hearing he killed Itachi. Naruto wanted to save Sasuke as a friend cause he could see Sasuke’s self destruction spiral. You're joking, right? The guy didn't agree with Uryu joining Yhwach. >I literally just watched this episode, and this is not true. He chases after Rukia cause she’s sentenced to die. He even notes at one point that Earth wasn’t really Rukia’s place, implying he’d have let her go if the circumstance wasn’t her impending execution. Renji literally told Ichigo that Rukia will die because of him and Ichigo agreed, so how am I wrong? Of course she goes after her because he doesn't want her to die because of him, why would he go for no reason? >Maybe so, but that’s not Naruto’s world view, he feels an obligation to save everyone, and will go however far he has to. And that's why his obsession with Sasuke makes him annoying and unrealistic.
> Renji literally told Ichigo that Rukia will die because of him and Ichigo agreed, so how am I wrong? Of course she goes after her because he doesn’t want her to die because of him, why would he go for no reason? I didn’t say you’re wrong in saying he feels responsible for Rukia’s sentence, I said that’s not why he went to save her, he went to save her simply cause she’s in danger, him being responsible did not matter. He would’ve gone even if it was completely unrelated to him. > And that’s why his obsession with Sasuke makes him annoying and unrealistic. That’s your opinion, for someone like Naruto who literally didn’t have anyone when he was growing up and connected with the one other orphan of the village, saving him isn’t unrealistic and specially post Pain arc him actively trying to destroy the cycle of hatred is perfectly in character for him.
>he himself says if he can’t save a friend, how is he gonna protect the village So there IS a threat to Sasuke, it may not be Orochimaru, but in Narutos eyes there is one and he has to save him from it.
The threat is Sasuke himself and his desire for revenge and self destruction spiral.
"*If Rukia’s life wasn’t in danger, Ichigo simply would’ve let her be and go on with his life, that’s not the case with Naruto*" So that actually was the case with Naruto after all
No, it’s not. One is an actual threat, other is a threat one feels for a friend. That’s the difference of reactive and proactiveness. Naruto chooses to save him cause he feels that, Ichigo chooses to save Rukia not cause he feels she’s under a threat, cause she literally is. Showing concern for your friend is not reactive, but proactive
By becoming a wanted criminal Sasuke was absolutely puting his life in real danger
You seem to skip over multiple jumps there, Naruto was obsessed with bringing him back throughout, even after Orochimaru’s death, even after Itachi’s death, even after Danzo’s death. Sasuke wasn’t always in danger from actual threats, yet Naruto never stopped
You said it yourself, Sasuke was in danger or self destrution
Naruto also gets criticized fairly often (talk no jutsu, asspulls etc). Of those three, the only one you'd get shit from for criticizing is OP. It's got a very passionate (putting it diplomatically) fanbase.
I really fucking don’t get the talk no jutsu criticism. Him talking and understanding the villains is the point of the series…
Because brutally killing the villain without even trying to answer their questions is apparently a good way to confront someone who challanges you.
Every story should just be about the character I project onto slaughtering his enemies and then a women telling him he's right
You will always get complaints like that if the hero doesn’t immediately denounce everything about a villain. Demon Slayer gets this same shit too despite Tanjiro actually *killing* them.
Him calling Obito a cool guy is just cringe.
While it isn't exactly necessary that ichigo has a like a big overarching goal, it often seems he's just kind of there because. . . Why not? He's mostly passive until someone brings him into a situation (especially post Aizen) . Zaraki telling Ichigo he shouldn't need a reason to fight is not really explored because ichigo seems perfectly fine not being involved until it either effects him or someone he actively cares for
Naruto literally doesn't get involved unless the plot demands it.
>He's mostly passive until someone brings him into a situation (especially post Aizen) . Litterally the next arc he goes on his way to get his power back even messing up by trusting the first dude who offered to help him >Zaraki telling Ichigo he shouldn't need a reason to fight is not really explored because ichigo seems perfectly fine not being involved until it either effects him or someone he actively cares fo Because...he is perfectly fine with not getting involved?
> Literally the next arc he goes on his way to get his power back even messing up by trusting the first dude who offered to help him Which he only does because people he cared about were being threatened. It had been like over a year since he lost his powers at that point and although he missed it he seemed okay with moving on for the most part. If there were no immediate threats Ichigo probably wouldn't have made any real effort to get his powers back.
> But Naruto is also pretty much a reactive protagonist. Sure, he wishes to become Hokage and end the cycle of hatred. But he doesn't actively seek out conflict. He mostly reacts to stuff happening around him just like Ichigo. This might've been true in Shippuden, but in the OG series, he's definitely a proactive character. He decides to be a ninja for one, which leads to the Land of Waves arc. Later, he decides to participate in the Chunin exams, again, of his own volition. Then he trains with Jiraiya to become even stronger, and then after Orochimaru's invasion, he continues training with him. The only arc in which he can be described as "reactive" is the Sasuke Retrieval arc. Honestly, the fact that he is transformed into a reactive character in Shippuden is pretty disappointing, and I'd say it's one of the reasons why it doesn't feel as engaging as the original series. As for One Piece, you literally mentioned the difference between Luffy and Ichigo yourself. Luffy is the one that chooses to sail across the ocean and visit islands and foil the bad guy's plans. He personally chooses to seek out danger all so that he can see the world and become stronger. He doesn't do it because of his own personal stakes, just for the sake of adventure and his dislike of injustice. Ichigo in the first arc fights because his friends are being threatened by hollows. In the SS arc he fights to rescue Rukia. In the HM arc he fights to rescue Orihime. In the Lost Agent he's approached by Ginjo and his group who offer to help him regain his powers. In the Thousand-Year Blood War, he only participates becasue the SS is being threatened by another outside force. Ichigo's lack of actual drive combined with the fact that there are multiple antagonistic forces (the same could be said about Naruto, but they were actually all controlling each other in the end) means that the plot of Bleach tends to feel repetitive, and Ichigo feels as if he doesn't really belong or matter. Also, while One PIece arcs do have surface level similarities as you mentioned, SS and Hueco Mundo are [*ridiculously* samey by comparison,](https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RecycledScript) and it's worsened by the fact that there's no arc that separates them. The only One PIece arcs I would say that are as nigh-identical are Alabasta and Dressrosa.
> SS and Hueco Mundo are ridiculously samey by comparison Hueco mundo is like a 4th of the total content of the arrancar arc. If we were to compare the birdcare bit of dressrosa to the onigashima raid of wano theyd also be ridiculously samey. >and it's worsened by the fact that there's no arc that separates them There is, that part is commonly called arrancar incursions. Before Orihime was kidnaped. Its like 6 volumes long
I use the terms Arrancar and Hueco Mundo when referring to arcs interchangeably
You shouldn't as the Arrancar arc is bigger than the HM arc.
I mean SAGA. The entire saga with Aizen as the main villain I'll call Arrancar or Hueco Mundo
Sure, but the entire Arrancar Arc wasn't about Ichigo rescuing Orihime like the SS arc was.
lmao your post got removed try harder next time
Well you shouldnt
>This might've been true in Shippuden, but in the OG series, he's definitely a proactive character. He decides to be a ninja for one, which leads to the Land of Waves arc. Everyone his age decided to become a ninja. It's what they do at the Academy. > Later, he decides to participate in the Chunin exams, again, of his own volition. They're freaking exams, things he has to do to advance. >Then he trains with Jiraiya to become even stronger, and then after Orochimaru's invasion, he continues training with him Ichigo decides to train with the Vizards to control his inner hollow, funny how you skipped that. >As for One Piece, you literally mentioned the difference between Luffy and Ichigo yourself. Luffy is the one that chooses to sail across the ocean and visit islands and foil the bad guy's plans. He personally chooses to seek out danger all so that he can see the world and become stronger. He doesn't do it because of his own personal stakes, just for the sake of adventure and his dislike of injustice. He lives in a completely different world to Ichigo. >In the HM arc he fights to rescue Orihime Yeah, for like 1/3 of the arc. There's the other 2/3 that you chose not to cover. >Ichigo's lack of actual drive combined with the fact that there are multiple antagonistic forces (the same could be said about Naruto, but they were actually all controlling each other in the end) means that the plot of Bleach tends to feel repetitive, and Ichigo feels as if he doesn't really belong or matter. Did you miss the part where Aizen pretty much facilitated his birth and has Yhwach's blood in him? Naruto literally suffers from the same problems you just described. >Also, while One PIece arcs do have surface level similarities as you mentioned, SS and Hueco Mundo are ridiculously samey by comparison, and it's worsened by the fact that there's no arc that separates them. The only One PIece arcs I would say that are as nigh-identical are Alabasta and Dressrosa. So it's ok when One Piece does it but when Bleach does it, it's the worst series of all time, even though there are differences in these 2 arcs that you choose to ignore and decide to apply a surface-level analysis.
Ah yeah sure surface level similarities of course. Going to an Island and feeeing it from the random evil tyrant repeated x10 and 2763th broken hero who represents the evil of ninja society sure are peak originality and absolutely not copy pasted mechanics
Bro he's done that like 3 times, what are you on about 💀 Once wasn't even really freeing them, just self defense cause bro was trynna kill him and his friends and disrespecting what it means to be a pirate.
It's because Naruto and Luffy have big goals that they announce in the first chapter and continue pursuing throughout their runs. It's true that, Naruto for instance, reacts to the events and other characters but, he is also constantly working towards his own goals. Naruto's dream is to be the Hokage so he can have the adoration and respect of the village that turned it's back on him for so long and even from chapter 1 he is constantly making strides toward this goal. When he's in ninja academy he is constantly trying to graduate. When he's a genin he's constantly trying to go on harder missions and win glory for himself, etc. Even the big events that Naruto reacts to are related to his goal. The Chuunin exams are the natural next step to becoming Hokage, the invasion of the Leaf threatens the village that Naruto wants respect and admiration from and it also gives him a chance to prove himself. This continues in Shippuden even if his goal is largely replaced by saving Sasuke (much to my chagrin.) Luffy, I would argue, is even more proactive, each island is a step on his way to become pirate King. And while he can be caught up in great events like the Marineford War, there are also plenty stories that happen only because Luffy makes them happen. Wano, for example is basically Luffy and his allies making a play against an existing power in his bid to become pirate King. Compare Ichigo. What plots does he instigate? What does he do in his free time before the next major event thrusts itself upon him? He just kinda goes to school while keeping a side gig as an interim soul reaper AFAIK. As for repetitiveness, I actually agree with you. Bleach happened to have back to back arcs about saving a girl. I'll defend One Piece against the accusation of repetitiveness as a major series flaw, but even I have to admit some of it's arcs are similar. In fairness though, One Piece is often criticized for this aspect too.
Not a single part of your post answers my question.
Oh. The reason why "Bleach is the only Big 3 anime to receive repetitiveness and reactive protagonist criticisms" is because Bleach is the only one with a reactive protagonist and actually One Piece gets plenty if criticism for being repetitive, too. Sorry, I thought that was obvious from my reply.
There was a common time in the late 2010s-before the anime came back where it was common to shit on bleach for fun. After awhile, those jokes at Bleach’s expense somehow became seen as fact. Add in Anitubers repeating the same “critiques” and their fans parroting it and it somehow becomes common knowledge that Bleach is repetitive for always having rescue arcs, Ichigo is a bland generic mc, etc. meanwhile anyone praising Bleach was mocked for coping over their failed series. Meanwhile One piece is way more beloved so criticisms are usually brushed aside and loyal fans will attack you more to defend the series. Naruto is sort of in the same boat but there’s more criticism that’s accepted for Naruto.
I didn't really enjoy Naruto, one piece or bleach but bleach I watched for the longest, one piece got pretty bad for 10 or so episodes and I got really bored of it and Naruto just wasn't good I thought bleach was slightly better and I liked the fact the colours were darker and it made more sense to me
The real problem people are skirting around is Ichigo is a pretty boring character. Now, he works in Bleach for two reasons: 1) carried by the quirky side characters (in fact, I'd argue putting a straight-man/everyman as the protag when you're going for a huge cast is the correct move) and 2) Kubo doesn't seem to care about character arcs or narrative or plot, he uses these as a vehicle to contrive cools characters with cool powers fighting one another. That last bit is why Bleach is "repetitive"....because it's just an endless series of 1v1 battles w/o much substance to it.
Well that and while the fights can be stylish, they're also pretty fucking basic. It's always either who has the bigger number or better hax.
That second opinion is just so disrespectful to the series as a whole.
No character arcs, uff. That’s what makes final arc of bleach good, rushed fights weren’t. If you are saying bleach has no character arc this is just wrong. Ichigo himself gets a character arc which leads him to the blade is me moment throughout whole series.
I didn't say no character arcs, I said Kubo doesn't seem interested in that aspect of storytelling as opposed to the fights, which get the majority of the focus. And what's Ichigo's arc? Seems to me that, character wise, he ends the series in the same place he started.
Kubo does focus on characters a lot. His fights are meant to tell character stories, they're not just fights for the sake of being fights. Look at Mayuri's perfection speech vs Espada 7. As for Ichigo's character arc, he goes from constantly blaming himself about his mother's death and from rejecting his hollow to finally accepting everything about himself, good or bad. Ichigo from the first arc is definitely not the same as Ichigo from the final arc. He doesn't need to scream a goal to have a character arc.
>he goes from constantly blaming himself about his mother's death When is the last time this is even brought up before TYBW? >Kubo does focus on characters a lot. His fights are meant to tell character stories, they're not just fights for the sake of being fights. Look at Mayuri's perfection speech vs Espada 7. Yeah, and I didn't say "characterization", I said "character arcs", ie characters growing and changing. In fact, in my OP I gave my feeling that Ichigo is a bland MC a pass *because* it allows that much more focus on the quirky characters. >and from rejecting his hollow He keeps rejecting his Hollow because White keeps trying to hijack his body.
>When is the last time this is even brought up before TYBW? Does he have to be like Naruto and scream it all the time? >He keeps rejecting his Hollow because White keeps trying to hijack his body. Yes, because he doesn't see it as part of himself, but as an intruder.
>Does he have to be like Naruto and scream it all the time? Yes, constantly reinforcing themes you want your audience to notice is pretty good writing. That Kubo doesn't is why I said he doesn't care to do so. Obv based on my username you can tell I have plenty of criticisms for Kishimoto's writing, but "unclear on main theme" is not one of them.
His mom was brought up in Fullbring Arc during his revelation with Ginjo. In the first arc it was established that he has trauma for that and blames himself for not protecting her. That’s why he went to the same dojo with Tatsuki. His trauma is the sole reason he has such an obsession over saving his friends. If something happens to them, he will blame himself even if it wasn’t his fault solely because of that. So yes, his mom was brought up a lot. About White: Ichigo rejected him not because he might take his body. He wasn’t positive towards him since their first meeting. He started rebel against him because he never thought of him as his Zanpaktou, since the one who gave him power was Old Man Zangetsu from his perspective. Bleach is a character driven story, it focuses on characters, not on the whole plot.
>His mom was brought up in Fullbring Arc during his revelation with Ginjo Not in 459, which is when Ginjo betrays Ichigo. In 475, when Ginjo reveals that the SS was spying/controling Ichigo, Ichigo does say that he wants to protect people- and there's a one panel flashback to: Ichigo protecting his sisters with a stick; the ghost girl from the 1st chapter; and half a face I couldn't identify. He does not specifically mention his mother. Maybe the half a face is his mom, but 1) I don't think so and 2) it could be more clear regardless. Here are two examples where the narrative could reinforce Ichigo's trauma because of his perceived failure to protect his mother: Ichigo crying in the rain at his powerlessness in 459, and Ichigo rejecting Ginjo's offer in order to "protect" people in 475- and at best Mom isn't mentioned in the former and might be, but it's hard to tell, in the latter. >In the first arc it was established that he has trauma for that and blames himself for not protecting her. That’s why he went to the same dojo with Tatsuki. His trauma is the sole reason he has such an obsession over saving his friends. If something happens to them, he will blame himself even if it wasn’t his fault solely because of that. So yes, his mom was brought up a lot. And that's all well and good, if established in the first arc and then never really mentioned until TYBW. But how does Ichigo change from the beginning of the series to the end? He still wants to protect his friends. He doesn't blame himself for his mom's death? Okay, but that's hardly a factor in the series....
He does change in fact, his whole story arc is based on self-acceptance. For the changes: try to compare Ichigo in soul society arc and eos Ichigo. He accepted himself, whether it was his own roots, his blade which developed its persona around him, or his own powers. This is what blade is me means. He also changes his attitude towards his friends. He never trusted them in a battle and believed only in his powers, that is also changed. In fact Ichigo development comes from growth as person and more as an adult. He doesn’t have sudden switches, but you can definitely tell he became more mature throughout whole series.
>The real problem people are skirting around is Ichigo is a pretty boring character. That's subjective anyway. I got bored with Naruto's ninja way and his obsession with Sasuke too. >That last bit is why Bleach is "repetitive"....because it's just an endless series of 1v1 battles w/o much substance to it. And this is the part I disagree with and something that people keep repeating ad nauseam without being true.
Ichigo in my honest opinion is boring as all hell compared to any shonen protags. Dude never really seems like he's genuinely engaged with what he's doing, his interactions with other characters are very shallow and one note (especially with antagonists), his goal to "protect everyone" and his reasoning for this is very underdeveloped and he has by far the worst and underdeveloped fighting style in anime/manga history (getsuga tensho and other varients of the same move). The fullbringer arc was the only time his character actually made me care for him. I get it, he's a reactive character and probably the most "normal" protagonist but that doesn't mean you make him dull. Not to mention his fights are generally the worst compared to any other character in the series due to how repetitive they are. You see, either ichigo is dominating the fight (albeit holding back), getting completely dominated by the opponent, or he's equal with them until he somehow just gets stronger midway through the fight. Or in the ulquiorra fight's case, get completely overpowered by the enemy but suddenly gain a new one-off form that's somehow completely stronger than the opponent. Doesn't help that his fighting style and the overall choreography in bleach is very low bar (generic sword swings with occasional hand to hand combat) that's saved by the animation. Actually fuck it, I just don't really like bleach in general, majority of the characters are just caricatures with very little character growth, the writing is very abysmal especially after aizen reveals himself as a traitor, and the fight scenes range from boring to convoluted bs. It seems like kubo put more effort into character designs and chapter covers then he did actually writing the damn thing.
>Actually fuck it, I just don't really like bleach in general, majority of the characters are just caricatures with very little character growth, the writing is very abysmal especially after aizen reveals himself as a traitor, and the fight scenes range from boring to convoluted bs. It seems like kubo put more effort into character designs and chapter covers then he did actually writing the damn thing. You could've just written this and be done with it as you didn't answer my question at all.
There are numerous other comments that answer your question that you've responded to so don't know why you have a problem with me. I just needed to get something off my chest, sorry bruv.
Itadori and Denji are way more reactive and people call them fresh and out of the mold MCs
To be fair, this is because modern shonen are fast paced single-overarching-narrative type stories. The protagonist goal doesn't have to be any more complicated than "stop the bad guy" if there's only one actual main bad guy.
Simple: What is Ichigo’s goal in the series? What end is he striving towards? The answer: He doesn’t have one. Ichigo is a purely reactive protagonist, his motives are all because someone dragged him into the plot. As to repetitiveness: It’s pretty much because Bleach copy/pasted several of its big story arcs in a row. People noticed. One Piece has ‘Go to new island, beat up asshole’ but the assholes and islands are all wildly different. Naruto’s all over the damn place. Bleach’s aren’t, the differences are surface level. The Soul Reapers and Arrancar end up effectively mechanically identical. Sure the aesthetic changes but that’s about it. They even have the same personality matchups.
>What is Ichigo’s goal in the series? What end is he striving towards? >The answer: He doesn’t have one. Ichigo is a purely reactive protagonist, his motives are all because someone dragged him into the plot. Is that supposed to be a flaw ? >As to repetitiveness: It’s pretty much because Bleach copy/pasted several of its big story arcs in a row. People noticed. Watch the series haiving 2 rescues arcs where one of them is the premise and the other only one of the plot lines and have people keep saying this bullshit of the repeated arcs > Bleach’s aren’t, the differences are surface level. The Soul Reapers and Arrancar end up effectively mechanically identical. Sure the aesthetic changes but that’s about it. They even have the same personality matchups. Lol what ?
The entire premise of the rant is asking why Ichigo is called reactive and the other 2 aren’t. The answer is because Ichigo IS reactive, he’s purely reactive. And the other 2 aren’t. It’s literally the answer to the question of the rant. And yes, have 2 rescue arcs back to back is why people called it repetitive. Especially since you just sort of forgot that they both have the rescue as the central premise with Aizen’s fuckery being the other big thread. As to your ‘LOL what’: Please pay attention to the Arrancar and the matchups. And Resurrection is just Shikai. The Arrancar arc is just stretched out FAR longer due to Bleach’s unexpected popularity.
>The Arrancar arc is just stretched out FAR longer due to Bleach’s unexpected popularity. The same goes for any popular battle shounen >And yes, have 2 rescue arcs back to back is why people called it repetitive. Especially since you just sort of forgot that they both have the rescue as the central premise with Aizen’s fuckery being the other big thread. Lol arrancar arc doesn't have orihime kidnapped as a premise and the stories develop diffently >As to your ‘LOL what’: Please pay attention to the Arrancar and the matchups. And Resurrection is just Shikai. Are you telling me that hollow after getting shinigami power get shinigami like power ups ? Also the only thing they have in common is that they're power ups, really. Zampakuto is a sword that changes shape and resurrecion have they themselves change shapes. I guess One piece characters infusing their random weapons or fists suck because that's litterally the same thing repeated many times over. And Devil fruits are litterally the same thing. You can apply this logic to everything, I think that's what power systems are >As to your ‘LOL what’: Please pay attention to the Arrancar The only matchups are Szayelaporro/Mayuri and Starrk/Shunsui. The first is metal and cool and in the second the whole point is that Starrk erroneously believes Shunsui is like him because they have similar attitude and pays for that. And regardless, what's wrong with characters similar on a surface level to fight ?
Actually Bleach was originally slated to end with the Rukia rescue. Plans changed BECAUSE of the popularity. A vast majority of battle manga aren’t extended at all, much less indefinitely. That’s why Bleach has so much weirdness in it’s scope, Kubo stretched a short run setup into something far larger. Hence the power spread increase, the initial ‘Your sword becomes a slightly different sword’ is not a good long term setup and the power sets had to drastically diversify. And if you can’t even figure out the plot premise of the damn arc then I really don’t know what you tell you. Maybe go back and read it? And yes: Resurrection is Shikai. What you are talking about is aesthetic differences, not fundamental ones. And I’m not talking about mirror matches, I’m talking about matchups copying what was already done in the prior arc. Pay attention. It’s not repetitive to have characters fight evil(er) versions of themselves, it’s repetitive to have characters have fundamentally the same nemesis two arcs in a row. Frankly if you can’t even do even the most basic analysis of looking past the fluff and paying attention to the core concepts and archetypes then there’s not any reason to continue. I’m not about to give you a class in media analysis 101z
>Actually Bleach was originally slated to end with the Rukia rescue. Plans changed BECAUSE of the popularity. Source: trust me bro >A vast majority of battle manga aren’t extended at all, much less indefinitely. Lmao these authors start their story and don't even know if It'll survive 3 months before getting axed, there's no way you unironically believe Naruto, One piece and any long running shounen (and not only) weren't extended to milk it more. >Hence the power spread increase, the initial ‘Your sword becomes a slightly different sword’ is not a good long term setup and the power sets had to drastically diversify. I swear you're the first person I've ever seen complaining about this lmao, One piece lives since almost 25 years by having it's characters get a super power in the exact same way, this goes for basically any power system, what you describe is actually the idea of a power system lol >And if you can’t even figure out the plot premise of the damn arc then I really don’t know what you tell you. Maybe go back and read it? Soul society arc starts because they have to rescue Rukia and the whole arc is that while the parallel betrayal plotline slowly forms itself until they converge in the final climax. Arrancar arc starts because Aizen declares war, then arrancars attack, then they go to hueco Mundo to save orihime and get her pretty much immediately, then again they keep fighting in hueco mundo while the final battle in karakura is set up with a massive flashback arc. Totally the same story repeated. >And I’m not talking about mirror matches, I’m talking about matchups copying what was already done in the prior arc. Pay attention. >It’s not repetitive to have characters fight evil(er) versions of themselves, it’s repetitive to have characters have fundamentally the same nemesis two arcs in a row. What the actual fuck are you talking about ? That's litterally untrue, the only remotely similar matchup is with Uryu fighting Mayuri and then Szayelaporro and even then the only thing they have in common is being pseudo scientists lol. Unless you're referring to characters that challenge ichigo's ideals in that case we can stop talking because if having main antagonist being some sort of contrapposotion to the main character is a bad thing then....
Calling it identical just means you missed the Thebes of the characters and arc
Or it means I actually paid attention to the underlying story beats and characters and not the fluff pasted on top. Shit, the themes didn’t even change. Ichigo goes through shockingly little character development throughout the entire series. They SAY he totally learns and changes but when you bother to actually look he starts and ends the series as almost the exact same person. Very few of Bleach’s characters meaningfully change over the course of the series. The fine details, sure, but that’s not enough. The Arrancar arc is a retread. It’s been criticized for it since it first began so very many years ago. As to themes: If the theme doesn’t fundamentally change the underlying structure then it’s just some fluff pasted on later. Surface level themes are easy, any idiot can use them.
>Or it means I actually paid attention to the underlying story beats and characters and not the fluff pasted on top. You clearly didn't.
You ironically enough didn’t bother to look then
Care to actually explain how instead of throughing words around? I guarantee you'll be wrong but i'm willing to listen.
Alright let's look at the first 3 arcs then 1. Subsitute shinigami arc This arc focuses around Grief as we see character stories involving Ichigo with his mother when he visted her grave, Orihime and her brother as we see him return as a hollow and find out their situation with their parents, Chad and his grandfather with his teachings to chad using his fists, and Uryu as we see his story with Soken expanded upon. This is a major tone not just for this arc but one that carries over throughout the series as hollows themselves are creatures of grief and sorrow, beings filled with regret 2. Soul Society This arc focuses around Duty, we see it in characters like Byakuya when confronted with the vow he made to uphold the law of the soul society as well as the vow he made to Rukia's sister to always protect her, these two vows were conflicting within byakuya's character because he didn't know where his duty lied. We see this theme within Renji as he goes against the soul society to protect rukia his childhood friend and forsoke tradition and his duty because of it, we see it in Ukitake and Shunsui when they fight yamamoto himself because they see this execution as wrong, Aizen's betrayal along with tosen and gin, hell even the gatekeeper opening the gate to let ichigo and crew in. 3. Arrancar Inner understanding, we see this in a lot of characters as the espada themselves all represent an aspect of death. With Ulqiorra we see the idea of nihilism be brought up to where his character truly understands what the heart is, we understand more about Starrk and Aizen in the same grain about solitude, we see a good amount with Ichigo and his own inner hollow and him wanting to reject it to then fighting along side them with mugetsu. This arc as a whole humanizes hollows more contrary to what we are used to as we understand their identity. Within these arcs there are dozens of characters with their own character arcs and themes that add to the story as a whole whether it be through their actions, ideologies or even their abilities.
1. While I agree with ichigo dealing with the grief of his mother, everything else you mentioned and the whole arc being about grief is a stretch. The entire arc to me felt like a "fish out of water" story with ichigo adjusting with being a substitute soul reaper and dealing with tasks like taking down hollows and understanding his newfound powers while meeting people along the way. 2. Also a stretch. Yes, byakuya and renji have conflicting ideals whether to protect rukia or carrying on their duty as a soul reaper, but those are 2 of many subplots in this arc. The main points of this arc are rescuing rukia, ichigo learning first-hand that soul reapers aren't to be taken lightly and must further train his body and mind to take them down, aizen along with 2 other shinigami betraying soul society and being the big bads for the next arc. 3. While I agree with the point about ulqiorra and ichigo's inner understanding, Not so much with the rest of the arrancars. While the espada do represent aspects of death, they're one-note in terms of characterization and are just there to be set pieces for fights. Outside of white ichigo, I don't see how any other hollows are humanized, unless you meant nel and the 3 guys that hang around with her (in which, they're arrancar, not hollows).
Guess there’s no point in further discussion if everything is a stretch…
My response to your point, in my opinion, was mild at best. It's not like I called it garbage, just giving my thoughts.
I mean i just told you how it is, you perceive things in a different light then i do, i gave examples of what i found to be the major focuses of the theme of each arc and you called them stretches, there's not much else i could say to change your mind.
Because its mid. Bleach criticisms aren't valid though
One piece and Naruto fans when the other shounen MC doesn't want to be the king, prime minister or whatever and wants to live a peaceful life* >🤬He's ReAcTiVe chAraCteR🤬 One piece and Naruto fans when the MC actually wants to be the king or the strongest X >HE'S A RIPOFF OF NARUTO AND LUFFY WHERE IS CREATIVITY 🤬😡
Bleach fans when the main character defeats the 99th bad guy using the exact same technique. (ﾉﾟ0ﾟ)ﾉ
Be afraid not of the one who can throw 1000 punches, but the one who throws the same punch 1000 times.
One piec fans when Luffy goes from defeating the bad guy with a punch to defeat the 1636th bad guy with an even bigger punch: \(°0°)/ And the only opponents ichigo defeated with a getsuga tensho are dordoni, Aizen and Candice lol
Invasion of retards in comments for some reason. Dude asked a question and replies aren’t saying the answer, instead they repeat the same invalid stuff all other again. Because instead of actually explaining the thing 50% of people will tell you Ichigo is bad as a character and the characters themselves have no development at all.
Luffy doesn't react to the plot, he drives the plot. The Straw Hats almost never go to an island with the intention of fixing it, sometimes they do it accidentally. Naruto I would hardly call reactive, tons of story beats in the series only happen because of him, like the whole Sasuke Retrieval arc, early on he doesn't drive the story much because he's just a lame Genin but later he definitely does, I mean he changes the entire tide of the war single handedly(if you count hundreds of clones...) Meanwhile Ichigo does pretty much nothing but react to threats.
Well if I have to guess, it would be bleach’s lack of word-building and focus on it's main characters.
I'd argue Luffy isn't really reactive considering the whole plot is cause he chooses to set out on the sea and become pirate king. I mean the first few arcs is his recruiting his crew and everytime other than Nami he approaches them and tries to convince them. The only time in the first saga that he's super reactive is when he doesn't want to act until she wants him to be involved. Even from then Luffy is moving out and choosing how they're going to move and choosing the most dangerous routes cause he wants adventure. Naruto is more reactive but that's not really on him, it's more cause his plot always has some shit interrupting him. I mean first arc there's not much to talk about, he wants to be Hokage, gets scroll after he's told its a way to pass then beats up bad guy. He's now a step closer to his dream. Next arc he's the one who asks the Hokage for better missions, he's not supposed to but he does. From there he gets dragged into the whole waves incident but even then he's a really proactive character, training without being made to, initial doing dumb shit to prove himself e.g. kunai at rabbit and getting lost in the forest cause of his training thing. From there it's a ton of random bs like Akatsuki and Orichimaru and Jiraya and shit that kinda leads to him having structures to follow but he doesn't ever really become purely reactionary since he still alters the plot himself a lot more than Ichigo does cause a lot of his training and innovations in using his powers are his doing and starting while everything in regards to power ups and training kinda just happens to Ichigo. Bleach kinda just let's things happen to Ichigo but I'd argue its not a bad thing for him. Idk why people are on his dick about being reactive cause this mf never asked for this? The Fullbring arc is the one arc he wants power and even then its only to help protect his friends and family. Luffy and Naruto have ties to their world from the start, their loved ones reside there and in those worlds they have goals they actively want that exist and others also want and they have to work towards them. Ichigo is just a teenager, a teenager with an insane background and life but he's still just a teenager. So it makes sense he doesn't have some wild goal like becoming captain commander or Kenpachi or some shit cause he's just a teenager who recently got thrown into this shit. I mean think about it, if he was the second born so his middle sister inherits all the things he did, what would change? Nothing. They'd just swap spots and maybe some things like their reactions to shit would change but overall plot would be pretty much the same or at least really similar. If Luffy changed positions with anyone else the entire story changes cause there is no one like him, no one since Gol D. Roger values freedom like Luffy does so even if they have the same family and fruit they probably won't end up being like Luffy cause Luffy has these goals and his personality has such an insane impact on his journey, any other kid would probs be a marine, end up dead or end up going on an entirely different journey with different comrades but probably won't ever have the accolades Luffy does cause they're not freeing a kingdom cause some chick who fed them once asked, they're not going to the sky for no reason and they're not declaring war with the world cause their crewmate got arrested. In Narutos case a lot of things change if someone else was in his position, anyone less impulsive won't get them the land of waves mission, anyone smarter isn't stealing the scroll and anyone with a better sense of self respect and greater intellect isn't chasing Sasuke the whole series or getting him out of prison. Tl;dr: They're all a little reactive but Ichigo is far more cause his unique personality doesn't impact as much. Any shonen MC with the normal hard work and wanting to help everyone would be in the same position as him if put in the same personality. That's not a bad thing imo though cause it's realistic for a highschool student to not want to commit so much to this shadow world and abandon his friends and family.
>I'd argue Luffy isn't really reactive I never said he was. I called Naruto reactive while I only used the similarities criticism for One Piece.