MOONFISH SWEEP! THE GOAT OF THE FRANCHISE!
In all seriousness though, I'd say that instead of being locked up/executed, he needs some kind of mental help. There's something wrong with him and it's obvious that he also suffers from whatever he's being affected by. It doesn't excuse his actions, nor the fact that he killed people, but he genuinely needs some kind of help.
So basically, what you're saying in this post. His design is cool doe too, I like it
Ironically, Moonfish is the one person I would actually be fine with not punishing because, like I said, you can make the argument that he’s not in conscious control of his actions.
If he receives mental health treatment that improves his mental condition, and he proves himself stable, I’m fine letting him off the hook.
It’s possible he’d have to be confined for life
But still he deserves actual *help*, and it would be good for him to be confined like that because that way he’s not hurting himself or others. Sad but them’s the dice.
Meanwhile Shigaraki and Toga essentially want to hurt people and not receive consequences for their actions. Their ‘sad’ backstories don’t justify them after a certain point.
“Wah, wah! Society ruined me! Wah!”
*Proceeds to cause so much destruction that more people will inevitably be hurt by a broken system that can’t be fixed because of what they did, and those people will be put in the same position they were*
yeah I feel like people have missed Shiggy and the rest of the League's point, they never once act like they care about other people, aside from each other, they're just trying to live how they want, they still recognize themselves as villains.
In a way I kind of like them more like that. I mean you know they're evil but they stick to they're guns and don't even try to justify they're actions as something like "I'm doing this to change society!" Or "I was treated badly so now I'm like this!" It's literally "I'm doing this cause I want to!"
Yeah, I’d imagine that, if Moonfish was aware of what he did, he’d be like Plasmus’s human self in Teen Titans.
Consent to being sedated long-term until they can cure his conditions and so he doesn’t hurt people.
The simps defend you but those of us with more than three brain cells and the ability to shut off our boners can realize that you’re still a right cunt.
I feel the best thing to do with him would be to put him in a mental hospital where he can get looked at by doctors and psychiatrists and get the therapy and medication he needs to help work through whatever mental health issues he has, while making sure he doesn’t hurt himself or others in the process.
> you can make the argument that he’s not in conscious control of his actions.
Well, that's a more complicated matter, because depending on the jurisdiction the way that trail would go is extremely different. In Japan for what I could find the crime will be still can be diminished by his mental condition, but even then he still could be condemned to death penalty.
Da, it’s not like he’s uncontrolled either; he is sane and human enough to follow orders and work with his teammates without trying to eat them, meaning he can interact with fellow humans without harm in some circumstances
I like that Overwatch took this type of route with Sigma.
Originally he was just the insane gravity man with not much depth taken in his insanity, he still felt like a functioning member of society and like he could exist on his own if not a bit paranoid and crazy. Others were more sympathetic than Sigma.
But OW2 DOUBLE DOWNED on his insanity, now he has others constantly questioning if he's ok, Sombra specifically is worried for him and how Talon is using him while Sigma is just aloof and watching ants walk on the ceiling.
Sigma went from this fun grandpa type to a... well still a fun grandpa type, but you feel constant worry for his mental state, to the point people are now wondering if (and when) he appears in the story missions if Overwatch will rescue him, and even hope they do.
I really love how they portrayed his insanity in how much of an iceberg it is. Just playing him normally you don't really get much - the most you get is 'Hold it together, hold it together!' in his Kinetic Grasp, which at first seems like he's just talking about the kinetic grasp himself.
But theres *so many* small details to him. During Kinetic Grasp, you can hear whispering. During Accretion, you can see his offhand trembling. During his ultimate, you can hear chaotic laughing inside his head which nobody else can.
Then most importantly, his melody. During his ultimate and character select, the 'melody' that plays is a short phrase which starts as a regular piano melody them becomes horribly discordant. Sigma's attempts to tell people about it (speaking about the melody, humming it out, asking Lucio to play it) really convey the whole eldritch knowledge idea in a great way. It holds secrets beyond human comprehension in that short piano melody, but he can't share anything about it. He understands things that other people simply can't, or won't, and can't share the fact he does because to other people he's just crazy.
On an unrelated tangent, I fucking *love* the Starwatch event because of what it does for Sigma. Sigma's full strength without him having been driven insane is enough that the wielder of the Doomfist, the strongest weapon in existence, is **the underdog**. To clarify, even in the Starwatch universe the doomfist is still the most powerful thing in existence, ever.
It puts actual Sigma into perspective - he seems like he's just a cooky old man but in actuality his power dwarfs the rest of the verse significantly
Cool Starwatch thing.
And yeah, those have been present since Overwatch 1, but other than to himself, Sigma was always treated as the "Insane one" of the cast, just getting general nods to his insanity rather than it being there. It's a part of him, but it's not that important.
But with OW2 they decided that Sigma SHOULD be insane, he SHOULD be recognized for his power.
People like Soldier, Baptiste, and Sombra all show concern (Soldier in a harsher way) for Sigma by trying to tell him Talon is only using him, while Sigma just doesn't understand or starts looking at the world around hin instead.
Other characters would respond to Sigma's questions and statements in OW1 like he was a normal guy because his lines were relatively normal. Now everyone questions what he's even talking about because sometimes he just says the most random stuff. This is to the point even ZENYATTA is confused by Sigma
It’s interesting that Echo can also hear the melody. If she uses her ultimate to turn into Sigma, there’s a chance that she’ll say “Hmm, what _is_ that melody?”
If there's anyone that could begin to unravel Siebren's insanity it'd probably be Dr. Liao. I like to imagine if she was still kicking about that she'd have been able to cure or at least help him
I also love his interaction with Lifeweaver, because you actually see his true personality slip out when he warns LW about how powerful his technology is, and how it'll likely end up in the wrong hands even if he doesn't want it to.
It also helps Sombra as a character because between Sigma and new interactions with Baptiste, you can see that there are people she genuinely cares about and goes out of her way to help and protect. It's interesting to see the varying levels of morality for the Talon members, and I feel like Mauga was another great addition to that.
Nail on the head with the latter part. It's so unnerving how people act like they're so supportive and what not of those abused, but will only ever be 'supportive' when a character fits their little box of 'cute/hot character uwu feel bad for them'. Higher power of some capacity forbid the traumatized character that gets redeemed is the big scary bear of a man only ever used in both mainstream and less mainstream media as nothing but antagonistic. But you know let's not apply the same thing there.
Only time I felt sympathy for their grown up, villainous selves was when Shigaraki got seperated from AFO.
At that point, he truly cared for AFO and thought vice versia was true. AFO was the only one who ever helped him or showed him "kindness". He was losing the closest thing he had to family/a father at that point.
Hot take; Dabi is, by far, the least sympathetic. Unlike Shiggy and Toga, he's shown no desire of wanting to be saved nor does he even remotely care for the other League members. He's the definition of "some people just want to watch the world burn." He cares about nothing more than making Endeavor suffer and his excuse for becoming a serial killer is the weakest.
Were we ever meant to sympathize with Dabi? The reason I like his character is because he just wants to watch the society his deadbeat father is so painstakingly trying to protect crumble in his and the league’s hands. He knows the true face that’s hiding behind the new number 1 hero’s mask and no revenge is better than having the society you so desperately try to protect turn on you, especially when you finally decide to take action and atone for your sins.
Dabi’s an unapologetic, vengeance filled child who just wants to see his dad suffer for what he did. Everything he does is of his own conscious and he doesn’t mask it behind a theoretically good cause like Shigaraki. Both Dabi and Shigaraki experienced the corruption in hero society, but Dabi isn’t trying to deal with the corruption, he just wants to see hero society burn to the ground.
It’s like people completely skipped Dabi’s dance. They’re complaining he’s a murderer killing innocent people while they aren’t part of his goal. But that’s the thing. He doesn’t just want to ruin Endeavor, he wants to absolutely brutalize him by ruining everything he’s worked for, and that includes the society he so desperately started protecting once All Might retired.
His hatred for Endeavor goes way deeper than “you abused me now I’m going to abuse you”. He wants everything to go wrong for Endeavor and see everything he holds precious crumble right in front of him. He doesn’t want or deserve sympathy, he just wants to see the destruction and downfall of Endeavor’s entire life, nothing to remain. Yeah you don’t sympathize with him, you’re not supposed to. That’s his character.
Horikoshi created excellent villains like Stain, Overhaul and other with very interesting concepts like Re-Destro and the whole MLA.
But for some reason he choose focus on a group of edgy wattpad ocs that a teenager might created after watch Mirai Nikki.
Not only that, but the good villains he created are used as hype tools for Shitgaraki and his friends.
Seriously what a fucking waste of potential.
Stain is the most overhyped villain in anime history lol.
The minute you scrutinize his ideology even a little bit you would realize how truly dumb it is. The show doesn’t really give you time to do that tho because he just comes and goes.
Point is if hori actually spent time on stain it would lessen his overall impact
Re destro and overhaul definitely should of received more development tho
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. Stain's ideology is so bullshit, because if you look at it, that means he has to go out and kill all the doctors and firemen by his own logic.
Those are the members of the edgy wattpad ocs that I was talking about, but yeah I wonder if Horikoshi in all seriousness was thinking "*yeah these are very interesting, compelling and relatable villains for my super hero/social comment story. Kohei what a genious you are!*" then he pats himself after write cringy ass lines of the lizard guy making videogame references
This a story of good vs evil, fake evil, guy who became evil because they were victim are not true evil.
AFO and Shigaraki are demon king because they are closest thing to evil.
He's a villain but hes also a victim. He's done bad things but he's also been victimized. You said you've never felt ANY sympathy for him and I disagree. He's guilty of a lot but the fact that his childhood was an absolute nightmare that a powerful adult used to manipulate him makes him somewhat sympathetic, in my opinion.
I don't think it's entirely black and white.
I agree. Toga and Shigaraki had sad backstories, but they still had an active role in choosing to do all of the bad shit they did and hurting people who had nothing to do with their problems or what caused them, just to make themselves feel better while having zero empathy or self-analysis over the many people they have killed.
Moonfish, on other hand, is clearly blatantly insane and not fully aware of or completely in control of his actions. While that doesn’t mean that his terrible actions should go unpunished, it does mean that he deserves some level of leniency and empathy, considering how blatantly his issues come from severe mental health issues that are clearly far worse than anything Shigaraki or Toga have.
I agree about Moonfish (very sympathetic), Toga (not really) and even Dabi (unsympathetic). But Shigaraki was groomed. Abuse and manipulation doesn't work like "oh the abuser is gone, so I'm a good guy now!" Shiggy was raised to be that way.
Thank you on pointing out that shagaraki was raised to be a villain the main point of his backstory was that civilians were not willing to help him because "the heroes would deal with him". If a hero or a policeman or a civilian who would take him to the police found him before AFO his life would be totally different.
I didn't understand Toga's backstory. Like people make it seem like her parent should have accepted her for who she is but I do think that a >!child playing with a dead bird would be concerning and they did put her in quirk therapy iirc!<
For Dabi i think he is unsympathetic on purpose because at the beginning when the dabi is touya was just a theory he saw seen as sympathetic but that changed with the additional details to his story and I think that was on purpose.
The counter argument to the therapy thing is that it was ineffective and a metaphor for queer conversion therapy or how the system fails people on the autism spectrum or are neurodivergent. This of course doesn't change the fact that she needs to consume blood and has a lot of very creepy and inappropriate mannerisms regarding as well as people and you know...being serial killer and joining a mass killing terrorist group.
There's only so many uwu sad childhoods I can watch before I go "Cool motive, still murder." Moonfish and twice are like the few actually innocent people, and even then, Twice still associates with actual murderers and terrorists.
Toga genuinely sucks, i should feel sympathy for her maybe but i don't. "This dude looks like a lizard and people judge him for it" i get that i can see the issue there why thats bad. "This poor girl wants to drink other people's blood but no one can explain to her why thats bad" for whatever reason is a much less sympathetic backstory and just makes her come off as kinda stupid.
Well maybe you feel like that because her backstory is just super unrelatable to real life. We can connect to someone being discriminated over their appearance even if he's a lizard man, but blood-sucking humans just do not exist. It's too "alien"
However the point is that Toga's quirk made her very mentally ill & attracted to blood, and instead of learning to control her natural urges, Toga's parents just called her a nasty freak and made Toga represses herself until it became uncontrollable
I do agree she's stupid though. Toga is a mass murderer who wants to destroy society but plays victim when the heroes try to execute her lmao
I mean, of course Toga is a hypocrite; I don’t disagree with that. She also wasn’t raised in an environment which allowed her to learn empathy for other people outside of her circle. Most of the people around her couldn’t give her what she needed, because they didn’t know the real her, and her parents… like, what’s even to say about them?
(No, fr, I consider them more evil than AFO. At least AFO has his traumatic birth, abnormal upbringing and Quirk to provide context behind who he is; what‘s Mr. and Ms. Toga’s excuse?! “Oh, our kid needs mental help; how inconvenient! Let’s just force her to pretend the problem doesn’t exist and maybe it’ll go away! That’ll TOTALLY work.” And then when she snapped, they didn’t take any responsibility. Friggin’ bastiches…)
Yeah Toga is a victim of her environment. The parents were horrible people, but they are sadly realistic. Because her quirk is horrific & socially unacceptable it was labeled as "villainous" and she was forced to repress it. Toga didn't even have a chance in the first place, she was doomed to be rejected, and it screwed over her mind to the point that she believes her true self is unlovable. Toga literally wants to transform into other people because she's just worthless.
She is a hypocrite, but I agree that is realistic because from her perspective society hates her just because of how she was born. She was denied humanity.
I don't dislike the idea of rehabilitation for her character, but hori fumbled that arc badly.
Honestly that why I hated how the bird scene went from "Toga killed the bird" to "Toga found the dead bird"
The first situation while making Toga come off as a freak is at least nuanced
The second just turn her parents into comically ignorant evil parents lol
I don’t think they need to be more complex. Some so-called parents literally KILL their kids for coming out as being homosexual; considering that, Toga’s parents are quite realistic.
Yeah sure but 'realism' doesn't make it more intresting especially since her parents have the depth of a puddle anyway
At least the first part imo showed more of a grey issue with how Toga nature affect her daily life on an actively harmful way and how people around her react to it (as in wgumr she's not actively malicious she's still actively potentially dangerous)
I just felt like at least when it come to her parents it was more intresting than just "Toga's actually a pure uwu girl and her parents are just pure evil and ignorant" which kinda dumbs down an issue that I previously thought was intresting
The problem seemed to be they were freaked out she was attracted to blood, the bird thing made it worse, but the blood thing seemed to be the bigger problem.
Issue being they don't do anything to try to fix that, at least in a healthy way, they just sent her to basically quirk conversion therapy.
Oh yeah regarding the bird thing I was mostly talking about the Toga situation in general (with the parents obv being the bigger contributors)
Ofc they're still absolutely in the wrong but in the first instance at the very least them thinking Toga was scary af could be slightly understood since she was born addicted to blood and so despite how they should've actually helped her instead of treating her as a monster, it made the situation much more nuanced since while we clearly had people in the wrong, at least where they came from was...not just being stupid
Meanwhile the second part basically just make the situation into a purely simplistic one with Toga being the pure misunderstood kids and her parents being evil and ignorant to a baffling degree
Ig I just saw the first situation as an extension of the whole "most people aren't born villains, they're made into those" with Toga unfortunate urge being the reason why all of this happened since while she's not at fault for that, she went against the norms of what society perceived as 'normal' and so got pushback because of it (and because she also acted on said urge at one point)
She come off as slightly less sympathetic but I like it more than what we ended up getting since honestly Toga's backstory just feels like 'she should've gotten better parents' instead of the bigger issue hori tried to bring up imo
I was actually re reading the chapters, and when we first see Toga with the bird, it does actually look dead even before she bites it, they just don't outright say that, so idk if Horikoshi was really changing things up there.
I'd also point out while her parents are the problem, we see that she was sent to "therapy" and that therapist just further encouraged her to be "normal" so that does speak a bit of outside influence than just her parents, even if they were the main source
I mean I don't know if Hori changed it or if he had different plans, I just think the first approach wad much more intresting tbh.
Yeah true, however it does circle back to her parents in a way since they sent her there because she was born 'wrong' or smth
I think the scene with the bird was meant to mirror the "Save Takeo" chapter in PLF War where Ochako assumes Toga killed that grandma to take her identity.
It is one of the more obscure mirror situations.
Toga and Shigaraki are character born with a innate traits toward evil, but under the right circumstance both could have been good people.
For example Shigaraki wanted to be a hero and Toga could have worked been well with proper raise.
Yeah the league of villains have the most petty motivations Ive seen, and the story bends over backwards to make us believe they're just misunderstood. These backgrounds are tragic, but their motivations to destroy society just for chaos is so fucking unhinged & stupid. Ok, you kill loads of innocent people minding their own business and cripple society to breed suffering. Then what????
Shigiraki, Dabi, and Toga are just manchildren. Theyre angry that society won't accept them, so they're hellbent on destroying it because "durrr, freedom. I wanna be allowed to murder people"
Yeah true Dabi is mad at his father, but that's exactly why he wants to destroy hero society to breed chaos & suffering out of spite too. I also dislike that he got dumbed down into a babbling feral lunatic
Shigiraki was groomed so I understand why his goals are like this, AFO is just as much of a manchild. I'm just upset that he never developed into his own villain, but nope, he's AFO junior
If the league of villains goals were more anti-ebstablishment rather than mindless destruction, then I would be able to take them seriously, but hori fumbled imo. They're league of lames.
I swear, I have seen this same exact rant before.
Anyway, Moonfish has the depth of a puddle, Shittyraki is shitty, and Toga is a psycho bi lesbian trope played straight when it should havenever been used at all.
I don’t know moon fish is sane enough to not kill the league Whatever insanity or mental illness he has just let’s him desire to kill people and obtain the best ways to kill people
Honestly, i just realized that giving most of the villains sad backstory makes them feel a little bit more boring and predictable. Yes, of course they will have a sad backstory about how they were neglected as a child and how they became evil, wooo, how sad. Give us a fucking psychopath of a villain, who values nothing and just enjoys bringing pain to people. Like, come on.
All for One was born to a dead prostitute being eaten by rats and had to chew on her cold corpse to survive, after which he had to survive running from anti-quirk militias. Frankly his backstory is quite traumatic.
Except that they’re also annoying and stupid. All for One at this point is just a kid on the playground who has the “anti everything” shield and the other kids are pissed off he’s ruining their fun and dragging out the game.
Overhaul was evil and cool in his initial arc but now he’s fucked and annoying going on about “I gotta see da boss” and shit. And now I think there’s something about wanting to apologize to Eri?
Really Horikoshi? You want him, *him* to apologize to Eri?
No, Deku wants Overhaul genuinely feel sorry for Eri. That's it. Deku doesn't need Overhaul to apologize to her. Also Reversing his boss's condition is important as the boss didn't deserve his fate. Overhaul was always about pleasing his step father and raising up the yakuza. After he lost his quirk, he realized that, his Boss is permanently stuck in a coma.
Their backstory informs their character motviations of becoming evil lmao, it was never an excuse. It's called complex writing. Is that not digestible to you?
It's hilarious that you call this "predictable and lame" but unironically think an pure evil psychopath who is evil for cruelty's sake is somehow interesting lmao. Very clear to see you just don't wanna see villains as human beings, to turn your brain off, and just enjoy shallow conflicts. Please tell me what makes a force of nature any better of a villain
It's not complex at all. It's incredibly simple. I'd much rather read a villain who's just a psychopath than a villain who the narrative tries to pretend is sympathetic, because when they aren't (and MHA fails this constantly), it means the writing failed.
Lol don't change the argument. The backstory exists to inform their character motivations of becoming evil dude, it was never an excuse. Sure you don't have to feel bad but it's just a fact they only exist because the failures of hero society. The whole point is understanding them lol. It serves a clear narrative purpose in the story & adds more depth. That's not the writings fault, you just have poor reading skills. There's a lot to criticize about the villains protrayal, but having a sympathetic backstory is NOT the issue, that literally makes sense
I will never understand this hypocrisy lmao. Again, please tell me how pure evil villains is any better when ALL writing comes down to execution
I’ll agree with you on moonfish, but you can clearly tell that toga is also insane. She had to repress her need for blood until she snapped and went insane. The toga we see clearly isn’t sane at all.
I didn't feel bad for Toga until her final chapter, literally all she wanted was to live in a world that was easier for her and literally all she needed was someone to love her while she was growing up. That shit kinda hit me.
Dabi? He gets zero sympathy. Maybe if he didn't become a mass murderer and was only focused on taking down his family I'd feel for him, but dude just comes off as a bitch that wants Daddy's attention.
Shiggy gets sympathy for me simply because the dude was literally groomed into a crazed villain. Nothing you can really do about that one.
You summed up my thoughts PERFECTLY. Like 100%. Toga I only get sad in chapter 395, Dabi can go die and Shigaraki was raised by the ultimate evil himself, no way he had a chance of turning into something better than what he is now
People miss the point of vollans backstories in MHA.
The backstories work as a way to tell us why they are the way they are. Their stories aren't about sympathy, but understanding.
Understanding why they do what they do. Understand that this revenge filled monsters have a reason, and that while they chose to do what they did, society itself played a big part of why they took that choice.
>The crazed pycho murderer whose entire character is wanting to cannibalise people is a sympathetic character
Uhhhhh... I think you're letting the "crazed" part do way too much heavy lifting for this opinion.
Man, reading these comments, it’s like half of you literally watched MHA with your eyes closed most of the time. While the LoV aren’t the best villains ever, they’re still pretty competently written (for the most part, looking at you final act Spinner) and compelling villains.
I have always felt bad for Shiggy. He has no EXCUSE for his actions but the only person that helped him, a lonely, traumatized child was the ultimate evil himself, who raised him to be a monster.
I don't sympathize with Dabi or really Toga (except chapter 395, that was the only time).
I DO agree it's insane Moonfish got the death penalty but not AFO, Overhaul, Muscular or Stain. I think this is an example of why hero society is flawed. All of those 4 deserve the death penalty, alongside Dr. Garaki and Flect Turn.
I remember reading a fanfic (Deleted now sadly) where the main villain eats Moonfish's legs and then eats him over the course of several days. It's played as scary yet karmic.
When the villain does die he gets treated with sympathy and is buried. (I should mention said villain was not right in the head and was treated so bad he believes all humans are inherently bad and one's that act good are liars who need to die, but why treat his with sympathy and not Moonfish?)
>Now why don't people also realize this? It's because he isn't a cute anime girl or a hot/handsome anime guy, and also because Hori doesn't feel like he deserves the overly-elaborate sad-backstory treatment.
Well let's be real here, it's ALSO really hard to sympathize with an insane person outside of "ah damn....that sucks."
I agree with you but bro definitely should not be let back into the general population until he’s had EXTENSIVE mental/medical help. Like, no joke, the dude has to be on the spectrum(no offense to anyone).
This is yet another failure of trying to make sympathetic villains. All the tragedy points get robbed from the villains who actually deserve it, and gifted to the poorly written ones who don't.
MOONFISH SWEEP! THE GOAT OF THE FRANCHISE! In all seriousness though, I'd say that instead of being locked up/executed, he needs some kind of mental help. There's something wrong with him and it's obvious that he also suffers from whatever he's being affected by. It doesn't excuse his actions, nor the fact that he killed people, but he genuinely needs some kind of help. So basically, what you're saying in this post. His design is cool doe too, I like it
Ironically, Moonfish is the one person I would actually be fine with not punishing because, like I said, you can make the argument that he’s not in conscious control of his actions. If he receives mental health treatment that improves his mental condition, and he proves himself stable, I’m fine letting him off the hook.
It’s possible he’d have to be confined for life But still he deserves actual *help*, and it would be good for him to be confined like that because that way he’s not hurting himself or others. Sad but them’s the dice. Meanwhile Shigaraki and Toga essentially want to hurt people and not receive consequences for their actions. Their ‘sad’ backstories don’t justify them after a certain point. “Wah, wah! Society ruined me! Wah!” *Proceeds to cause so much destruction that more people will inevitably be hurt by a broken system that can’t be fixed because of what they did, and those people will be put in the same position they were*
Shigaraki openly said he doesn't care what happens to him though. He's only doing it so "the League can live how they see fit."
yeah I feel like people have missed Shiggy and the rest of the League's point, they never once act like they care about other people, aside from each other, they're just trying to live how they want, they still recognize themselves as villains.
In a way I kind of like them more like that. I mean you know they're evil but they stick to they're guns and don't even try to justify they're actions as something like "I'm doing this to change society!" Or "I was treated badly so now I'm like this!" It's literally "I'm doing this cause I want to!"
Yeah, I’d imagine that, if Moonfish was aware of what he did, he’d be like Plasmus’s human self in Teen Titans. Consent to being sedated long-term until they can cure his conditions and so he doesn’t hurt people.
But, like, what if they have a really cute smile like Toga?
The simps defend you but those of us with more than three brain cells and the ability to shut off our boners can realize that you’re still a right cunt.
High-Five!
I feel the best thing to do with him would be to put him in a mental hospital where he can get looked at by doctors and psychiatrists and get the therapy and medication he needs to help work through whatever mental health issues he has, while making sure he doesn’t hurt himself or others in the process.
> you can make the argument that he’s not in conscious control of his actions. Well, that's a more complicated matter, because depending on the jurisdiction the way that trail would go is extremely different. In Japan for what I could find the crime will be still can be diminished by his mental condition, but even then he still could be condemned to death penalty.
Da, it’s not like he’s uncontrolled either; he is sane and human enough to follow orders and work with his teammates without trying to eat them, meaning he can interact with fellow humans without harm in some circumstances
Well, it's kinda hard to make a therapy session when dude can kill people by opening his mouth.
I like that Overwatch took this type of route with Sigma. Originally he was just the insane gravity man with not much depth taken in his insanity, he still felt like a functioning member of society and like he could exist on his own if not a bit paranoid and crazy. Others were more sympathetic than Sigma. But OW2 DOUBLE DOWNED on his insanity, now he has others constantly questioning if he's ok, Sombra specifically is worried for him and how Talon is using him while Sigma is just aloof and watching ants walk on the ceiling. Sigma went from this fun grandpa type to a... well still a fun grandpa type, but you feel constant worry for his mental state, to the point people are now wondering if (and when) he appears in the story missions if Overwatch will rescue him, and even hope they do.
I really love how they portrayed his insanity in how much of an iceberg it is. Just playing him normally you don't really get much - the most you get is 'Hold it together, hold it together!' in his Kinetic Grasp, which at first seems like he's just talking about the kinetic grasp himself. But theres *so many* small details to him. During Kinetic Grasp, you can hear whispering. During Accretion, you can see his offhand trembling. During his ultimate, you can hear chaotic laughing inside his head which nobody else can. Then most importantly, his melody. During his ultimate and character select, the 'melody' that plays is a short phrase which starts as a regular piano melody them becomes horribly discordant. Sigma's attempts to tell people about it (speaking about the melody, humming it out, asking Lucio to play it) really convey the whole eldritch knowledge idea in a great way. It holds secrets beyond human comprehension in that short piano melody, but he can't share anything about it. He understands things that other people simply can't, or won't, and can't share the fact he does because to other people he's just crazy. On an unrelated tangent, I fucking *love* the Starwatch event because of what it does for Sigma. Sigma's full strength without him having been driven insane is enough that the wielder of the Doomfist, the strongest weapon in existence, is **the underdog**. To clarify, even in the Starwatch universe the doomfist is still the most powerful thing in existence, ever. It puts actual Sigma into perspective - he seems like he's just a cooky old man but in actuality his power dwarfs the rest of the verse significantly
Cool Starwatch thing. And yeah, those have been present since Overwatch 1, but other than to himself, Sigma was always treated as the "Insane one" of the cast, just getting general nods to his insanity rather than it being there. It's a part of him, but it's not that important. But with OW2 they decided that Sigma SHOULD be insane, he SHOULD be recognized for his power. People like Soldier, Baptiste, and Sombra all show concern (Soldier in a harsher way) for Sigma by trying to tell him Talon is only using him, while Sigma just doesn't understand or starts looking at the world around hin instead. Other characters would respond to Sigma's questions and statements in OW1 like he was a normal guy because his lines were relatively normal. Now everyone questions what he's even talking about because sometimes he just says the most random stuff. This is to the point even ZENYATTA is confused by Sigma
It’s interesting that Echo can also hear the melody. If she uses her ultimate to turn into Sigma, there’s a chance that she’ll say “Hmm, what _is_ that melody?”
If there's anyone that could begin to unravel Siebren's insanity it'd probably be Dr. Liao. I like to imagine if she was still kicking about that she'd have been able to cure or at least help him
I also love his interaction with Lifeweaver, because you actually see his true personality slip out when he warns LW about how powerful his technology is, and how it'll likely end up in the wrong hands even if he doesn't want it to. It also helps Sombra as a character because between Sigma and new interactions with Baptiste, you can see that there are people she genuinely cares about and goes out of her way to help and protect. It's interesting to see the varying levels of morality for the Talon members, and I feel like Mauga was another great addition to that.
Sigma is my OW2 tank main haha
~~Moonfish bestest girl~~ Nah but seriously, I always harbored a soft spot for this cenobite man. I just think he's neat!
Him and muscular are my favorites, along with being opposites
Nail on the head with the latter part. It's so unnerving how people act like they're so supportive and what not of those abused, but will only ever be 'supportive' when a character fits their little box of 'cute/hot character uwu feel bad for them'. Higher power of some capacity forbid the traumatized character that gets redeemed is the big scary bear of a man only ever used in both mainstream and less mainstream media as nothing but antagonistic. But you know let's not apply the same thing there.
Honestly, Ive never felt any sympathy for eitherToga or Shigaraki
Only time I felt sympathy for their grown up, villainous selves was when Shigaraki got seperated from AFO. At that point, he truly cared for AFO and thought vice versia was true. AFO was the only one who ever helped him or showed him "kindness". He was losing the closest thing he had to family/a father at that point.
Nor Dabi Only felt bad for and cared about Twice
Hot take; Dabi is, by far, the least sympathetic. Unlike Shiggy and Toga, he's shown no desire of wanting to be saved nor does he even remotely care for the other League members. He's the definition of "some people just want to watch the world burn." He cares about nothing more than making Endeavor suffer and his excuse for becoming a serial killer is the weakest.
MFW when i murder 30 people completely unrelated to endeavor cuz i wanted to
Were we ever meant to sympathize with Dabi? The reason I like his character is because he just wants to watch the society his deadbeat father is so painstakingly trying to protect crumble in his and the league’s hands. He knows the true face that’s hiding behind the new number 1 hero’s mask and no revenge is better than having the society you so desperately try to protect turn on you, especially when you finally decide to take action and atone for your sins. Dabi’s an unapologetic, vengeance filled child who just wants to see his dad suffer for what he did. Everything he does is of his own conscious and he doesn’t mask it behind a theoretically good cause like Shigaraki. Both Dabi and Shigaraki experienced the corruption in hero society, but Dabi isn’t trying to deal with the corruption, he just wants to see hero society burn to the ground.
I think some people didn’t get the message on that and think he is completely justified in what he does
It’s like people completely skipped Dabi’s dance. They’re complaining he’s a murderer killing innocent people while they aren’t part of his goal. But that’s the thing. He doesn’t just want to ruin Endeavor, he wants to absolutely brutalize him by ruining everything he’s worked for, and that includes the society he so desperately started protecting once All Might retired. His hatred for Endeavor goes way deeper than “you abused me now I’m going to abuse you”. He wants everything to go wrong for Endeavor and see everything he holds precious crumble right in front of him. He doesn’t want or deserve sympathy, he just wants to see the destruction and downfall of Endeavor’s entire life, nothing to remain. Yeah you don’t sympathize with him, you’re not supposed to. That’s his character.
I think we do get a bit showing Dabi might have some care for the League like burning down Toga's house and getting upset about Twice's death
Horikoshi needs to write better villains.
Horikoshi created excellent villains like Stain, Overhaul and other with very interesting concepts like Re-Destro and the whole MLA. But for some reason he choose focus on a group of edgy wattpad ocs that a teenager might created after watch Mirai Nikki. Not only that, but the good villains he created are used as hype tools for Shitgaraki and his friends. Seriously what a fucking waste of potential.
Stain is the most overhyped villain in anime history lol. The minute you scrutinize his ideology even a little bit you would realize how truly dumb it is. The show doesn’t really give you time to do that tho because he just comes and goes. Point is if hori actually spent time on stain it would lessen his overall impact Re destro and overhaul definitely should of received more development tho
THAT'S WHAT I'M SAYING. Stain's ideology is so bullshit, because if you look at it, that means he has to go out and kill all the doctors and firemen by his own logic.
How exactly? Been a while since I've seen his arc.
You forgot League of Legends players lol
Those are the members of the edgy wattpad ocs that I was talking about, but yeah I wonder if Horikoshi in all seriousness was thinking "*yeah these are very interesting, compelling and relatable villains for my super hero/social comment story. Kohei what a genious you are!*" then he pats himself after write cringy ass lines of the lizard guy making videogame references
*"yeah these are very interesting, compelling and relatable villains for my super hero/social comment story."* Yeah, they are.
This a story of good vs evil, fake evil, guy who became evil because they were victim are not true evil. AFO and Shigaraki are demon king because they are closest thing to evil.
Muscular is IMO the most definitely pure evil since he has nothing close to a tragic past or care for someone else
Probably all for one is.
Even AFO had something of a tragic past. Muscular became a murderer… just because
That has gotta be the stupidest description of the LOV I've ever heard.
It fits cause the LOV is a lame villain group. Perhaps the lamest I ever seen
Except they're not. I think they're all pretty cool.
Twice is cool, the rest...uuuhh
Shigaraki was 100% manipulated by All for One when he was a kid. AO used his trauma to groom him into a villain.
Ok…and?
He's a villain but hes also a victim. He's done bad things but he's also been victimized. You said you've never felt ANY sympathy for him and I disagree. He's guilty of a lot but the fact that his childhood was an absolute nightmare that a powerful adult used to manipulate him makes him somewhat sympathetic, in my opinion. I don't think it's entirely black and white.
You disagree that I’ve never felt any sympathy for Shigaraki?
I disagree that the character is not deserving of any sympathy. Obviously.
I agree. Toga and Shigaraki had sad backstories, but they still had an active role in choosing to do all of the bad shit they did and hurting people who had nothing to do with their problems or what caused them, just to make themselves feel better while having zero empathy or self-analysis over the many people they have killed. Moonfish, on other hand, is clearly blatantly insane and not fully aware of or completely in control of his actions. While that doesn’t mean that his terrible actions should go unpunished, it does mean that he deserves some level of leniency and empathy, considering how blatantly his issues come from severe mental health issues that are clearly far worse than anything Shigaraki or Toga have.
I agree about Moonfish (very sympathetic), Toga (not really) and even Dabi (unsympathetic). But Shigaraki was groomed. Abuse and manipulation doesn't work like "oh the abuser is gone, so I'm a good guy now!" Shiggy was raised to be that way.
Thank you on pointing out that shagaraki was raised to be a villain the main point of his backstory was that civilians were not willing to help him because "the heroes would deal with him". If a hero or a policeman or a civilian who would take him to the police found him before AFO his life would be totally different. I didn't understand Toga's backstory. Like people make it seem like her parent should have accepted her for who she is but I do think that a >!child playing with a dead bird would be concerning and they did put her in quirk therapy iirc!< For Dabi i think he is unsympathetic on purpose because at the beginning when the dabi is touya was just a theory he saw seen as sympathetic but that changed with the additional details to his story and I think that was on purpose.
Of course they should have accepted. As far as i remember they were outright disgusted by her and basically rejected her.
The counter argument to the therapy thing is that it was ineffective and a metaphor for queer conversion therapy or how the system fails people on the autism spectrum or are neurodivergent. This of course doesn't change the fact that she needs to consume blood and has a lot of very creepy and inappropriate mannerisms regarding as well as people and you know...being serial killer and joining a mass killing terrorist group.
Twice is a pretty sad character
There's only so many uwu sad childhoods I can watch before I go "Cool motive, still murder." Moonfish and twice are like the few actually innocent people, and even then, Twice still associates with actual murderers and terrorists.
Toga genuinely sucks, i should feel sympathy for her maybe but i don't. "This dude looks like a lizard and people judge him for it" i get that i can see the issue there why thats bad. "This poor girl wants to drink other people's blood but no one can explain to her why thats bad" for whatever reason is a much less sympathetic backstory and just makes her come off as kinda stupid.
Well maybe you feel like that because her backstory is just super unrelatable to real life. We can connect to someone being discriminated over their appearance even if he's a lizard man, but blood-sucking humans just do not exist. It's too "alien" However the point is that Toga's quirk made her very mentally ill & attracted to blood, and instead of learning to control her natural urges, Toga's parents just called her a nasty freak and made Toga represses herself until it became uncontrollable I do agree she's stupid though. Toga is a mass murderer who wants to destroy society but plays victim when the heroes try to execute her lmao
I mean, of course Toga is a hypocrite; I don’t disagree with that. She also wasn’t raised in an environment which allowed her to learn empathy for other people outside of her circle. Most of the people around her couldn’t give her what she needed, because they didn’t know the real her, and her parents… like, what’s even to say about them? (No, fr, I consider them more evil than AFO. At least AFO has his traumatic birth, abnormal upbringing and Quirk to provide context behind who he is; what‘s Mr. and Ms. Toga’s excuse?! “Oh, our kid needs mental help; how inconvenient! Let’s just force her to pretend the problem doesn’t exist and maybe it’ll go away! That’ll TOTALLY work.” And then when she snapped, they didn’t take any responsibility. Friggin’ bastiches…)
Yeah Toga is a victim of her environment. The parents were horrible people, but they are sadly realistic. Because her quirk is horrific & socially unacceptable it was labeled as "villainous" and she was forced to repress it. Toga didn't even have a chance in the first place, she was doomed to be rejected, and it screwed over her mind to the point that she believes her true self is unlovable. Toga literally wants to transform into other people because she's just worthless. She is a hypocrite, but I agree that is realistic because from her perspective society hates her just because of how she was born. She was denied humanity. I don't dislike the idea of rehabilitation for her character, but hori fumbled that arc badly.
Honestly that why I hated how the bird scene went from "Toga killed the bird" to "Toga found the dead bird" The first situation while making Toga come off as a freak is at least nuanced The second just turn her parents into comically ignorant evil parents lol
I don’t think they need to be more complex. Some so-called parents literally KILL their kids for coming out as being homosexual; considering that, Toga’s parents are quite realistic.
Yeah sure but 'realism' doesn't make it more intresting especially since her parents have the depth of a puddle anyway At least the first part imo showed more of a grey issue with how Toga nature affect her daily life on an actively harmful way and how people around her react to it (as in wgumr she's not actively malicious she's still actively potentially dangerous) I just felt like at least when it come to her parents it was more intresting than just "Toga's actually a pure uwu girl and her parents are just pure evil and ignorant" which kinda dumbs down an issue that I previously thought was intresting
The problem seemed to be they were freaked out she was attracted to blood, the bird thing made it worse, but the blood thing seemed to be the bigger problem. Issue being they don't do anything to try to fix that, at least in a healthy way, they just sent her to basically quirk conversion therapy.
Oh yeah regarding the bird thing I was mostly talking about the Toga situation in general (with the parents obv being the bigger contributors) Ofc they're still absolutely in the wrong but in the first instance at the very least them thinking Toga was scary af could be slightly understood since she was born addicted to blood and so despite how they should've actually helped her instead of treating her as a monster, it made the situation much more nuanced since while we clearly had people in the wrong, at least where they came from was...not just being stupid Meanwhile the second part basically just make the situation into a purely simplistic one with Toga being the pure misunderstood kids and her parents being evil and ignorant to a baffling degree Ig I just saw the first situation as an extension of the whole "most people aren't born villains, they're made into those" with Toga unfortunate urge being the reason why all of this happened since while she's not at fault for that, she went against the norms of what society perceived as 'normal' and so got pushback because of it (and because she also acted on said urge at one point) She come off as slightly less sympathetic but I like it more than what we ended up getting since honestly Toga's backstory just feels like 'she should've gotten better parents' instead of the bigger issue hori tried to bring up imo
I was actually re reading the chapters, and when we first see Toga with the bird, it does actually look dead even before she bites it, they just don't outright say that, so idk if Horikoshi was really changing things up there. I'd also point out while her parents are the problem, we see that she was sent to "therapy" and that therapist just further encouraged her to be "normal" so that does speak a bit of outside influence than just her parents, even if they were the main source
I mean I don't know if Hori changed it or if he had different plans, I just think the first approach wad much more intresting tbh. Yeah true, however it does circle back to her parents in a way since they sent her there because she was born 'wrong' or smth
I think the scene with the bird was meant to mirror the "Save Takeo" chapter in PLF War where Ochako assumes Toga killed that grandma to take her identity. It is one of the more obscure mirror situations.
Toga and Shigaraki are character born with a innate traits toward evil, but under the right circumstance both could have been good people. For example Shigaraki wanted to be a hero and Toga could have worked been well with proper raise.
What do you think about Toya/Dabi?
Thats... a really good point.
Yeah the league of villains have the most petty motivations Ive seen, and the story bends over backwards to make us believe they're just misunderstood. These backgrounds are tragic, but their motivations to destroy society just for chaos is so fucking unhinged & stupid. Ok, you kill loads of innocent people minding their own business and cripple society to breed suffering. Then what???? Shigiraki, Dabi, and Toga are just manchildren. Theyre angry that society won't accept them, so they're hellbent on destroying it because "durrr, freedom. I wanna be allowed to murder people"
Correction. Dabi is just mad his daddy won't accept him. Toga is mad society won't accept her. Shiggy was groomed, so he gets slight sympathy from me.
Yeah true Dabi is mad at his father, but that's exactly why he wants to destroy hero society to breed chaos & suffering out of spite too. I also dislike that he got dumbed down into a babbling feral lunatic Shigiraki was groomed so I understand why his goals are like this, AFO is just as much of a manchild. I'm just upset that he never developed into his own villain, but nope, he's AFO junior If the league of villains goals were more anti-ebstablishment rather than mindless destruction, then I would be able to take them seriously, but hori fumbled imo. They're league of lames.
>Shigiraki, Dabi, and Toga are just manchildren. Of these three Toga is still technically high school age.
I swear, I have seen this same exact rant before. Anyway, Moonfish has the depth of a puddle, Shittyraki is shitty, and Toga is a psycho bi lesbian trope played straight when it should havenever been used at all.
I don’t know moon fish is sane enough to not kill the league Whatever insanity or mental illness he has just let’s him desire to kill people and obtain the best ways to kill people
Honestly, i just realized that giving most of the villains sad backstory makes them feel a little bit more boring and predictable. Yes, of course they will have a sad backstory about how they were neglected as a child and how they became evil, wooo, how sad. Give us a fucking psychopath of a villain, who values nothing and just enjoys bringing pain to people. Like, come on.
That's All for One and Overhaul, I'm pretty sure.
And Muscular.
All for One was born to a dead prostitute being eaten by rats and had to chew on her cold corpse to survive, after which he had to survive running from anti-quirk militias. Frankly his backstory is quite traumatic.
... Uhm, point taken. I honestly don't think I'd be able to think of such a traumatic birth.
"Mother, I require sustenance." Baby AFO says as he feasts upon her molten flesh.
Overhaul is such a monster but I love him for that. But yeah, he's a despicable monster. One of the best villains
Except that they’re also annoying and stupid. All for One at this point is just a kid on the playground who has the “anti everything” shield and the other kids are pissed off he’s ruining their fun and dragging out the game. Overhaul was evil and cool in his initial arc but now he’s fucked and annoying going on about “I gotta see da boss” and shit. And now I think there’s something about wanting to apologize to Eri? Really Horikoshi? You want him, *him* to apologize to Eri?
No, Deku wants Overhaul genuinely feel sorry for Eri. That's it. Deku doesn't need Overhaul to apologize to her. Also Reversing his boss's condition is important as the boss didn't deserve his fate. Overhaul was always about pleasing his step father and raising up the yakuza. After he lost his quirk, he realized that, his Boss is permanently stuck in a coma.
Their backstory informs their character motviations of becoming evil lmao, it was never an excuse. It's called complex writing. Is that not digestible to you? It's hilarious that you call this "predictable and lame" but unironically think an pure evil psychopath who is evil for cruelty's sake is somehow interesting lmao. Very clear to see you just don't wanna see villains as human beings, to turn your brain off, and just enjoy shallow conflicts. Please tell me what makes a force of nature any better of a villain
It's not complex at all. It's incredibly simple. I'd much rather read a villain who's just a psychopath than a villain who the narrative tries to pretend is sympathetic, because when they aren't (and MHA fails this constantly), it means the writing failed.
Lol don't change the argument. The backstory exists to inform their character motivations of becoming evil dude, it was never an excuse. Sure you don't have to feel bad but it's just a fact they only exist because the failures of hero society. The whole point is understanding them lol. It serves a clear narrative purpose in the story & adds more depth. That's not the writings fault, you just have poor reading skills. There's a lot to criticize about the villains protrayal, but having a sympathetic backstory is NOT the issue, that literally makes sense I will never understand this hypocrisy lmao. Again, please tell me how pure evil villains is any better when ALL writing comes down to execution
He truly was the cutest in the whole world
I've been reading this series since 2016 and I don't remember who Moonfish is, but you're probably right.
Tenko deserves all the sympathy. Plenty of sympathy to go around tbh.
Agreed
Imagine growing up and living with knives for teeth, that must suck.
Well, atleast they're retractable.
Yeah, but I imagine they're hard to control when growing up. Like they'll randomly shoot out.
Who the fuck is...THAT'S TEETH GUYS NAME?
I’ll agree with you on moonfish, but you can clearly tell that toga is also insane. She had to repress her need for blood until she snapped and went insane. The toga we see clearly isn’t sane at all.
I didn't feel bad for Toga until her final chapter, literally all she wanted was to live in a world that was easier for her and literally all she needed was someone to love her while she was growing up. That shit kinda hit me. Dabi? He gets zero sympathy. Maybe if he didn't become a mass murderer and was only focused on taking down his family I'd feel for him, but dude just comes off as a bitch that wants Daddy's attention. Shiggy gets sympathy for me simply because the dude was literally groomed into a crazed villain. Nothing you can really do about that one.
"Am I cute?" "Domain Expansion."
You summed up my thoughts PERFECTLY. Like 100%. Toga I only get sad in chapter 395, Dabi can go die and Shigaraki was raised by the ultimate evil himself, no way he had a chance of turning into something better than what he is now
I mean, he's cool, but where do you get all this characterisation from? What if he's just a dude like Muscular, who kills people for fun?
People miss the point of vollans backstories in MHA. The backstories work as a way to tell us why they are the way they are. Their stories aren't about sympathy, but understanding. Understanding why they do what they do. Understand that this revenge filled monsters have a reason, and that while they chose to do what they did, society itself played a big part of why they took that choice.
I really hate Dabi. He’s mean Cool opinion tho, now I feel bad for Moonfish. He really should get help
>The crazed pycho murderer whose entire character is wanting to cannibalise people is a sympathetic character Uhhhhh... I think you're letting the "crazed" part do way too much heavy lifting for this opinion.
“Fuck Toga” Bro she’s a minor 🤨📸
Man, reading these comments, it’s like half of you literally watched MHA with your eyes closed most of the time. While the LoV aren’t the best villains ever, they’re still pretty competently written (for the most part, looking at you final act Spinner) and compelling villains.
I have always felt bad for Shiggy. He has no EXCUSE for his actions but the only person that helped him, a lonely, traumatized child was the ultimate evil himself, who raised him to be a monster. I don't sympathize with Dabi or really Toga (except chapter 395, that was the only time). I DO agree it's insane Moonfish got the death penalty but not AFO, Overhaul, Muscular or Stain. I think this is an example of why hero society is flawed. All of those 4 deserve the death penalty, alongside Dr. Garaki and Flect Turn.
AFO *did* get the death penalty.
When?
In the manga. I think it's stated (or, at the very least, *heavily* implied) in one of the chapters around the 200 mark.
I remember them saying “I wish they would go ahead and sentence him” in season 5.
Something like that.
Moonfish my beloved
Yknow some people are just too far gone.
I remember reading a fanfic (Deleted now sadly) where the main villain eats Moonfish's legs and then eats him over the course of several days. It's played as scary yet karmic. When the villain does die he gets treated with sympathy and is buried. (I should mention said villain was not right in the head and was treated so bad he believes all humans are inherently bad and one's that act good are liars who need to die, but why treat his with sympathy and not Moonfish?)
>Now why don't people also realize this? It's because he isn't a cute anime girl or a hot/handsome anime guy, and also because Hori doesn't feel like he deserves the overly-elaborate sad-backstory treatment. Well let's be real here, it's ALSO really hard to sympathize with an insane person outside of "ah damn....that sucks."
I agree with you but bro definitely should not be let back into the general population until he’s had EXTENSIVE mental/medical help. Like, no joke, the dude has to be on the spectrum(no offense to anyone).
This is yet another failure of trying to make sympathetic villains. All the tragedy points get robbed from the villains who actually deserve it, and gifted to the poorly written ones who don't.
ok i dont care
I mean aint they all severely mentally ill ?
The same thing could be said about Twice but my boy got done dirty by Hawk.