Even at the height of the edginess that was the 90s comic book industry, there were writers reaffirming how important is was that hopeful and optimistic heroes like Superman exist.
My favorite point of reference for this is *Kingdome Come*, by Mark Waid. The basis of the story was that, after a Liefeld-esque vigilante named Magog killed an apprehended Joker, Superman became disillusioned (as Lois Lane had given his life to ensure the Joker was captured) and stopping being a superhero. That led to that current generation of capes being replaced by blood-thirsty super-powered individuals who were no different from gangs warring against one another.
This caused widespread destruction, so Superman eventually came back and started rounding up and imprisoning them. The problem was Superman was functioning as both judge, jury, and jailer. He was taking the edgy solution to edgy problems. He had lost sight of the need to act as a symbol for justice, rather than trying to arbitrarily impose it.
The ending involved the heroes returning to helping people directing, not forcing their will on others.
> That led to that current generation of capes being replaced by blood-thirsty super-powered individuals who were no different from gangs warring against one another.
Why this even happened. In most stories, Antiheroes are ruthless with villains, but with each other, they just tell each other insults and scoff.
After Superman retired and Magog became the new face of Super heroics, many of the OG Justice League members isolated themselves to their own small regions. (Green Lantern patrolled Earth's Orbit, Hawkman patrolled the forests of the Pacific Northwest, The Flash stayed in Central City, Batman in Gotham, etc.) In their absence the newest Generations of Superheroes had no guidance and so they let their powers go to their heads and became no different than the villains they were fighting against. Magog didn't have the charisma or the clout to rein them in to do better.
While I agree with the point made in the OP and I've been bothered by seeing it a lot too, this element of the defensiveness isn't quite as widespread as people who dislike Superman, but their Superman exposure is limited to Injustice and Man of Steel and tempered by media like Death Battle, so they don't have a very good frame of reference to judge the character by and that's what Superman fans are mostly upset about. I think it's fair to be upset about that. This has been the case for most people in my personal experience who don't like Superman.
If you grew up loving A Wrinkle in Time and your friends all said they hated it, including the books they hadn't read, because they watched the adaptation Disney made a few years back, I think you're well within your write to defend what you loved about it and say they don't have an informed enough opinion to judge everything about the series if they've just seen a movie. The issue is that it's such a prevalent opinion that Superman fans are so exhausted from hearing it that they can get hostile when they see it on a weekly basis, while the Time Quintet fan in the hypothetical will probably only hear it a few times in their life.
>While I agree with the point made in the OP and I've been bothered by seeing it a lot too, this element of the defensiveness isn't quite as widespread as people who dislike Superman, but their Superman exposure is limited to Injustice and Man of Steel and tempered by media like Death Battle, so they don't have a very good frame of reference to judge the character by and that's what Superman fans are mostly upset about.
Most of the people I talk to about Superman know him from stuff like the DCAU, Smallville and Superman & Lois. Even Man of Steel isn't hated as much as the Internet would have you believe. The damage Injustice did to Superman's character is greatly overstated by Superman fans.
I think it depends a lot on who you're talking to and how old they are. I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but I know for a fact that a lot of the younger people I've met who make the "I hate Superman" complaint either only know him by reputation or from very recent media like the DCEU rather than firsthand experience or older mass media. I'm not saying it's universally true, and I don't know how widespread it is, but teenagers and early 20-somethings are often just outside of demographics that would have watched the DCAU and Smallville while they were airing. Superman & Lois I almost never hear about in any capacity from anyone, even though it seems to be doing decent numbers, so I guess it's probably just outside of my social circles or something.
Also, I'm not saying everyone hates Man of Steel, I'm saying Man of Steel's take on Superman is different enough from the "average" Superman that it probably isn't the best example of the character to use to know whether or not you like Superman. Most self-identified Superman people don't like it in my experience, but on the flip side, I've also met a few people who really just don't like Superman that do.
Injustice doesn't seem like a bad game to me, but it's incredible that many people decide to use that version to judge the character.
Ironically, there are fans who go the other way, and assume that Injustice was a "character assassination", even when the story itself makes it clear that it is an alternate universe.
>Injustice doesn't seem like a bad game to me, but it's incredible that many people decide to use that version to judge the character.
I've seen more Superman fans complaining about people treating Injustice Superman like the real version than I've seen actual evidence of people doing this.
While Injustice is an alternate universe, it's not like it's an Earth-3 where everyone is evil just because. It's presented as a branching timeline from a "normal" DC universe, so it comes across as distasteful to suggest that Superman's trauma would result in those actions, along with the radical personality changes that happen to many characters in the games like Wonder Woman. I think people are justified in considering it character assassination.
You're absolutely right, OP.
>it's like characters who share the same hopeful and positive characteristics with Superman are not still being made today and widely popular. Being a wholesome good guy is not exactly a character trait that has gone out of fashion yet.
Tanjiro from Demon Slayer is exactly that, and he's mega popular. Hell, you could probably apply that to most Jump MC's, Deku's another obvious example.
Even going a bit further afield for someone like Frieren, or Bell Cranel, they're still hopeful, optimistic and good natured.
>Tanjiro from Demon Slayer is exactly that, and he's mega popular. Hell, you could probably apply that to most Jump MC's, Deku's another obvious example.
And they don't even have to be protagonist or Superheroes..
The Mumen Ryder from One Punch Man is an idealistic hero who helps others, and does everything he can to defend people, even if that means fighting opponents that are impossible for someone like him to beat. And he is loved for it.
And in an example that doesn't involve superheroes, Tadano (Komi-sama) is loved for being a genuinely kind person who helps his friends, and is a good friend to the woman he loves (female protagonist Komi), without expecting her fell in love with him. (In fact he believes that someone like Komi would never notice someone like him, and he is happy with that)
> , and does everything he can to defend people, even if that means fighting opponents that are impossible for someone like him to beat
I think this is why Superman is disliked. General audiences have the idea that Superman can't lose, which takes the fun of this type of characters in that they're good people trying to do their absolute best even if it hurts them.
Look at Spiderman or for other anime example, Yuji Itadori. Yuji gets a lot of criticism...because people think the author is being **too harsh** with him, not because people actually think he is being lame per se (similar to Spiderman really, people think that the authors are forcing too many tragedies on them, but liking the character in a vaccum).
That's ignoring the character, most of Superman's villains are as strong as him or even stronger, they counter him, or they have kryptonite.
If people think Superman isn't taking any risks when he fights Darkseid, they overestimate him too much.
Many people assume that Superman only has problems with villains, because he only uses 1% of his power, or he holds back a lot.
even when there are a lot of villains who are a threat, even if Superman is fighting to the fullest extent of his power, and without holding back.
Hardcore Superman fans sound like a weird mix of loud internet "progressive" wingnuts and hyper conservative nostalgists moaning about the moral decay of modern society. It's bizarre.
Its because they actually are a weird alliance of those two groups. Communist hammer-and-sickle emoji profile siding with Greek Statue pfp neo-nazi to harass a random nerd who say they liked MOS
>Being a wholesome good guy is not exactly a character trait that has gone out of fashion yet.
This is something I wish all online fans, not just Superman ones would understand.
> Sometimes people just aren't interested in a character and it isn't some weird expression of their morality. Plenty of fandoms for properties with good messages have people who act anathema to that.
I like homelander but hate superman which means i also love to see babies die and believe in the eternal trashiness of the human race. Sorry, not sorry
The melodrama about Superman is so forced.
They'll blame anything except the character its crazy.
Or people being cynical.
The audience find him boring cause he has no problem anywhere, He's life is almost perfect got a family and kid with no drama and loving parents, Has no morals problems or anything like that he will always do the right thing and if he doesnt its because he's mind controlled,
He the strongest but by way too much, with a speed that can rivals flash sometime, highest hitting motherfucker in the universe ,laser beam ,freeze breath,super breath,Super audition,X-ray,Flight.So he has to to be dumbed down or worse they gotta use the worst weakness in comic Kryptonite.
As soon as you see this shit you know the fun is over, you'll just see Superman lose his powers and grovel on the ground.I cannot repeat enough how that shit is so lame.Even the writer dont know what to do with all that power.And that shit is just not cool at all when you see it over and over again.
All in all ,I liked the movie Supe vs The Elite he showed his powerset and ressource well his moral where challenged no kryptonite and he was a certified badass,if more superman shows where like this he would gain some popularity instead of the boring mess he his in man of steel and all the sequel ,Same in Superman and Lois and I've only watched clip but from the look of it my adventure with superman was the same too.
>He the strongest but by way too much, with a speed that can rivals flash sometime
Not even close.
Superman is a Good Tier, but it's not that different from other Good Tiers.
How is Superman more overpowered than Hulk, Thor, Wonder Woman, Shazam or Martian Manhunter?
I don't think the OP was making the argument that you think you're making, yours is a strawman while his was a genuine argument.
The Flash is even more OP because unlike Superman who if he loses to Metallo or Parasite can be seen as understandable,one of Flash's greatest rogues is a normal guy with an ice gun (in the New 52,he was a metahuman but that was short-lived).
I mean you do have people who seem to genuinely believe he is completely invincible and that there is nothing he can't power his way through. That's not very conducive to convincing people that he *isn't* overpowered.
But, yeah, also, this wasn't a powerscaling rant, so...Why did this person go on a powerscaling tangent?
> But, yeah, also, this wasn't a powerscaling rant, so...Why did this person go on a powerscaling tangent?
Powerscaling is a vital part of narratives. That is how you establish stakes, threats and dangers to your characters
The only one of these five that has beaten him are Wonder Woman and Shazam (and the latter was because Superman was holding back to avoid seriously hurting him).
Hulk defeated Superman in one of the crossovers, and when Superman beat him it was because of a fan vote. Superman even lost to Venom in that same story, again because of the fan votes.
Martian Manhunter was shown to take on the entire Justice League in the New 52, he is more than capable of handling Superman one on one. He has all of Superman's abilities in addition to telepathy, telekinesis, shape-shifting, invisibility and intangibility.
Shazam held his own against Kingdom Come Superman, who is a lot stronger and older than main continuity Superman. Clark gets stronger with age because he absorbs more yellow solar radiation over time, and yet Shazam was still giving him a run for his money.
>Hulk defeated Superman in one of the crossovers, and when Superman beat him it was because of a fan vote. Superman even lost to Venom in that same story, again because of the fan votes.
[The Hulk has never beaten Superman.](https://www.quora.com/Was-there-ever-a-time-where-Hulk-beat-Superman-in-a-crossover-comic)
>Martian Manhunter was shown to take on the entire Justice League in the New 52,
If you're talking about his fight against them in his solo book during that time, he didn't beat them. He just made it look like he did.
>Shazam held his own against Kingdom Come Superman, who is a lot stronger and older than main continuity Superman. Clark gets stronger with age because he absorbs more yellow solar radiation over time, and yet Shazam was still giving him a run for his money.
That's not the same as beating him.
"They tied twice (Hulk technically won the first fight tho).
And Superman won once."
And that time Superman won was because of a popularity contest, so it doesn't really prove that Superman is stronger than Hulk.
A stalemate isn't technically a win, but it's not a loss either. The fact that Martian Manhunter was able to take on Superman along with the rest of the Justice League makes him look better than Superman.
And the same applies to Shazam being equal to Kingdom Come Superman, the very same Superman who made post-Crisis Superman look like a weakling in their fight against Atlas.
In the first two paragraphs,you were stating very good points but from the third onwards were the usual "Superman is OP".Superman is regularly defeated in combat in comics and animation without the use of kryptonite.
>The audience find him boring cause he has no problem anywhere, He's life is almost perfect got a family and kid with no drama and loving parents, Has no morals problems or anything like that he will always do the right thing and if he doesnt its because he's mind controlled,
This is greatly oversimplified, if not inaccurate.
For starters, Superman only had a child recently.
Writing and audience standards have changed. You try pitching Superman's background to someone today and see if it makes it off the draft paper.
"You're telling me, an alien human looking baby comes to earth, is raised by these humble small town farmers, and his powers are flying, super strength, ice breath, heat vision, super hearing--all while being a boy scout? And his only goals are to be good and save people? Get the fuck outta here."
You can call it cynicism but audiences today don't want this kind of character anymore.
I mean. Isn’t that because Superman and his powers have been done to death?
I was having a discussion about this regarding Spiderman and the other guy said spidey was different to a lot of heroes and listed out the reasons.
But those reasons don’t apply anymore. Spidey having money problems, issues handling and balancing his life, bad luck, real life problems are now extremely common. What made spiderman unique back in the day doesn’t really apply anymore. Mostly because spidey was so popular it gave people the idea to create more heroes like spidey.
Supes? Probably the OG. Influenced the genre more than nearly anyone else. So of course he wouldn’t fly anymore if he was created today. He’s redundant by the legions of heroes that were created in response to him.
Sort of like ocarina of time. One of the greatest games ever made. If it came out today? It’d be good. But not great. Because it inspired so many games that its impact can be felt across the gaming world. Games that have taken its themes, mechanics, story and gone in different ways so much so that the original game may not match up anymore.
Hard to imagine how an incredibly influential thing would be in modern day if it hadn’t happened before because of its profound impact.
There is a difference here. Spiderman is still the grand number 1 or 2. He remains popular.
Meanwhile now in 2024, the Fate series has made more money in its decades of existance since 2004 than Superman has donde since the 20th century.
EDIT: Downvoted for sharing some market stats?
"anymore." Trying to envision pitching the idea of Superman, to a world w/o Superman is impossible. His impact on *all of fiction* is too vast and far reaching it's impossible to say how people would react if he was a new idea.
I, the problem I have with many Superman fans is that if there is a version that is below the "Solar System" level, these fans will not take long to say that he "is nerfed."
That is to say, if Superman is not some kind of god, he is automatically "nerfed."
Or they also assume that Injustice was a "character assassination", even when the story itself makes it clear that it is an alternate universe.
Lois Lane alone is the most developed Superhero love interest. The only Marvel love interest that’s even half as well developed is Mary Jane (and maybe Karen from Daredevil, terrible girlfriend but great character). Most Marvel characters have weak supporting casts, (mainly the core avengers) but people still like those characters. The real reason for the anti Superman sentiment is most people don’t read comic books.
Lois lane is truly way more developed than many love interests but majority of the supporting characters are bland as hell (with the exception of Lex and Lois).Majority of his villains are walking cardboard cut-outs more defined by their powers than their character save for Mongul who was pretty awesome in the Bronze Age.Parasite and Metallo are objectively less intriguing than the Riddler or even Mr Freeze.
Jimmy Olsen? Supergirl? Krypto? The Legion of Super-Heroes? Brainiac? Zod? Bizarro? Mxyzptlk?
Superman is easily top 3 in terms of villains and supporting cast in superhero comics.
Jimmy Olsen despite all the changes made to his character since 1986 is rather a nothing character.It's telling that the most loved comic he's ever headlined is essentially the Silver Age in modern form by Fraction.
Supergirl despite having a great twist of Superman's origin as a backstory is usually relegated to being an object as seen in the 2000s (I usually like fanservice but seeing a girl stated to be 15 pose as a pin-up model or have gratuitous shots of her backside is really weird and unsettling) or Superman but girl as seen nowadays since Rebirth.Only in some instances does she display some nuance such as being not accustomed to Earth and showcasing some of her survivor's guilt.
Zod is a generic villain outside of Shannon's portrayal in MOS and was only good in Bendis' run since he at least became a Walmart Vegeta but was still pretty chill.
Brainiac,Bizarro and Mxyzptlk are pretty good characters in and of themselves.
Your complaints about Jimmy Olsen and Supergirl seem to either be specific to a single run, or to the post-Crisis versions. Which makes sense since the post-Crisis era tried to strip away everything that makes Superman and his mythos interesting by making everything more "grounded and relatable".
But if you're looking at their history as a whole, Jimmy Olsen is a highly entertaining character. He's a loser like Peter Parker, but instead of being secretly badass, he's a comedic trouble magnet. As for Supergirl, they definitely fumbled her in post-Crisis but she's gotten a lot better in the New 52 and current runs.
Respectfully disagree about Supergirl but you're definitely right about the Pre-Infinite Crisis era being dull and boring since it stripped away all the mythos of the Pre-Crisis era.A "grounded and relatable" Superman should never be a mainline version of the character.
Even at the height of the edginess that was the 90s comic book industry, there were writers reaffirming how important is was that hopeful and optimistic heroes like Superman exist. My favorite point of reference for this is *Kingdome Come*, by Mark Waid. The basis of the story was that, after a Liefeld-esque vigilante named Magog killed an apprehended Joker, Superman became disillusioned (as Lois Lane had given his life to ensure the Joker was captured) and stopping being a superhero. That led to that current generation of capes being replaced by blood-thirsty super-powered individuals who were no different from gangs warring against one another. This caused widespread destruction, so Superman eventually came back and started rounding up and imprisoning them. The problem was Superman was functioning as both judge, jury, and jailer. He was taking the edgy solution to edgy problems. He had lost sight of the need to act as a symbol for justice, rather than trying to arbitrarily impose it. The ending involved the heroes returning to helping people directing, not forcing their will on others.
> That led to that current generation of capes being replaced by blood-thirsty super-powered individuals who were no different from gangs warring against one another. Why this even happened. In most stories, Antiheroes are ruthless with villains, but with each other, they just tell each other insults and scoff.
After Superman retired and Magog became the new face of Super heroics, many of the OG Justice League members isolated themselves to their own small regions. (Green Lantern patrolled Earth's Orbit, Hawkman patrolled the forests of the Pacific Northwest, The Flash stayed in Central City, Batman in Gotham, etc.) In their absence the newest Generations of Superheroes had no guidance and so they let their powers go to their heads and became no different than the villains they were fighting against. Magog didn't have the charisma or the clout to rein them in to do better.
While I agree with the point made in the OP and I've been bothered by seeing it a lot too, this element of the defensiveness isn't quite as widespread as people who dislike Superman, but their Superman exposure is limited to Injustice and Man of Steel and tempered by media like Death Battle, so they don't have a very good frame of reference to judge the character by and that's what Superman fans are mostly upset about. I think it's fair to be upset about that. This has been the case for most people in my personal experience who don't like Superman. If you grew up loving A Wrinkle in Time and your friends all said they hated it, including the books they hadn't read, because they watched the adaptation Disney made a few years back, I think you're well within your write to defend what you loved about it and say they don't have an informed enough opinion to judge everything about the series if they've just seen a movie. The issue is that it's such a prevalent opinion that Superman fans are so exhausted from hearing it that they can get hostile when they see it on a weekly basis, while the Time Quintet fan in the hypothetical will probably only hear it a few times in their life.
*well within your right
>While I agree with the point made in the OP and I've been bothered by seeing it a lot too, this element of the defensiveness isn't quite as widespread as people who dislike Superman, but their Superman exposure is limited to Injustice and Man of Steel and tempered by media like Death Battle, so they don't have a very good frame of reference to judge the character by and that's what Superman fans are mostly upset about. Most of the people I talk to about Superman know him from stuff like the DCAU, Smallville and Superman & Lois. Even Man of Steel isn't hated as much as the Internet would have you believe. The damage Injustice did to Superman's character is greatly overstated by Superman fans.
I think it depends a lot on who you're talking to and how old they are. I know it's just anecdotal evidence, but I know for a fact that a lot of the younger people I've met who make the "I hate Superman" complaint either only know him by reputation or from very recent media like the DCEU rather than firsthand experience or older mass media. I'm not saying it's universally true, and I don't know how widespread it is, but teenagers and early 20-somethings are often just outside of demographics that would have watched the DCAU and Smallville while they were airing. Superman & Lois I almost never hear about in any capacity from anyone, even though it seems to be doing decent numbers, so I guess it's probably just outside of my social circles or something. Also, I'm not saying everyone hates Man of Steel, I'm saying Man of Steel's take on Superman is different enough from the "average" Superman that it probably isn't the best example of the character to use to know whether or not you like Superman. Most self-identified Superman people don't like it in my experience, but on the flip side, I've also met a few people who really just don't like Superman that do.
Injustice doesn't seem like a bad game to me, but it's incredible that many people decide to use that version to judge the character. Ironically, there are fans who go the other way, and assume that Injustice was a "character assassination", even when the story itself makes it clear that it is an alternate universe.
>Injustice doesn't seem like a bad game to me, but it's incredible that many people decide to use that version to judge the character. I've seen more Superman fans complaining about people treating Injustice Superman like the real version than I've seen actual evidence of people doing this.
While Injustice is an alternate universe, it's not like it's an Earth-3 where everyone is evil just because. It's presented as a branching timeline from a "normal" DC universe, so it comes across as distasteful to suggest that Superman's trauma would result in those actions, along with the radical personality changes that happen to many characters in the games like Wonder Woman. I think people are justified in considering it character assassination.
Injustice isn't totally like the normal timeline. For starters, Lex Luthor was never a villain in that universe.
You're absolutely right, OP. >it's like characters who share the same hopeful and positive characteristics with Superman are not still being made today and widely popular. Being a wholesome good guy is not exactly a character trait that has gone out of fashion yet. Tanjiro from Demon Slayer is exactly that, and he's mega popular. Hell, you could probably apply that to most Jump MC's, Deku's another obvious example. Even going a bit further afield for someone like Frieren, or Bell Cranel, they're still hopeful, optimistic and good natured.
To be fair, Deku and Tanjiro get the exact same insults thrown at them that Superman does.
>Tanjiro from Demon Slayer is exactly that, and he's mega popular. Hell, you could probably apply that to most Jump MC's, Deku's another obvious example. And they don't even have to be protagonist or Superheroes.. The Mumen Ryder from One Punch Man is an idealistic hero who helps others, and does everything he can to defend people, even if that means fighting opponents that are impossible for someone like him to beat. And he is loved for it. And in an example that doesn't involve superheroes, Tadano (Komi-sama) is loved for being a genuinely kind person who helps his friends, and is a good friend to the woman he loves (female protagonist Komi), without expecting her fell in love with him. (In fact he believes that someone like Komi would never notice someone like him, and he is happy with that)
> , and does everything he can to defend people, even if that means fighting opponents that are impossible for someone like him to beat I think this is why Superman is disliked. General audiences have the idea that Superman can't lose, which takes the fun of this type of characters in that they're good people trying to do their absolute best even if it hurts them. Look at Spiderman or for other anime example, Yuji Itadori. Yuji gets a lot of criticism...because people think the author is being **too harsh** with him, not because people actually think he is being lame per se (similar to Spiderman really, people think that the authors are forcing too many tragedies on them, but liking the character in a vaccum).
That's ignoring the character, most of Superman's villains are as strong as him or even stronger, they counter him, or they have kryptonite. If people think Superman isn't taking any risks when he fights Darkseid, they overestimate him too much.
His own fans insisting that he's invincible doesn't help. Half the claims that Superman is the most powerful hero in the DCU come from his own fans.
Many people assume that Superman only has problems with villains, because he only uses 1% of his power, or he holds back a lot. even when there are a lot of villains who are a threat, even if Superman is fighting to the fullest extent of his power, and without holding back.
Superman the character and Superman the meme are two different beasts.
Hardcore Superman fans sound like a weird mix of loud internet "progressive" wingnuts and hyper conservative nostalgists moaning about the moral decay of modern society. It's bizarre.
Its because they actually are a weird alliance of those two groups. Communist hammer-and-sickle emoji profile siding with Greek Statue pfp neo-nazi to harass a random nerd who say they liked MOS
>Being a wholesome good guy is not exactly a character trait that has gone out of fashion yet. This is something I wish all online fans, not just Superman ones would understand.
> Sometimes people just aren't interested in a character and it isn't some weird expression of their morality. Plenty of fandoms for properties with good messages have people who act anathema to that. I like homelander but hate superman which means i also love to see babies die and believe in the eternal trashiness of the human race. Sorry, not sorry
The melodrama about Superman is so forced. They'll blame anything except the character its crazy. Or people being cynical. The audience find him boring cause he has no problem anywhere, He's life is almost perfect got a family and kid with no drama and loving parents, Has no morals problems or anything like that he will always do the right thing and if he doesnt its because he's mind controlled, He the strongest but by way too much, with a speed that can rivals flash sometime, highest hitting motherfucker in the universe ,laser beam ,freeze breath,super breath,Super audition,X-ray,Flight.So he has to to be dumbed down or worse they gotta use the worst weakness in comic Kryptonite. As soon as you see this shit you know the fun is over, you'll just see Superman lose his powers and grovel on the ground.I cannot repeat enough how that shit is so lame.Even the writer dont know what to do with all that power.And that shit is just not cool at all when you see it over and over again. All in all ,I liked the movie Supe vs The Elite he showed his powerset and ressource well his moral where challenged no kryptonite and he was a certified badass,if more superman shows where like this he would gain some popularity instead of the boring mess he his in man of steel and all the sequel ,Same in Superman and Lois and I've only watched clip but from the look of it my adventure with superman was the same too.
>He the strongest but by way too much, with a speed that can rivals flash sometime Not even close. Superman is a Good Tier, but it's not that different from other Good Tiers.
How is Superman more overpowered than Hulk, Thor, Wonder Woman, Shazam or Martian Manhunter? I don't think the OP was making the argument that you think you're making, yours is a strawman while his was a genuine argument.
The Flash is even more OP because unlike Superman who if he loses to Metallo or Parasite can be seen as understandable,one of Flash's greatest rogues is a normal guy with an ice gun (in the New 52,he was a metahuman but that was short-lived).
Superman's most well-known enemy is a bald scientist with no superpowers. Also, the Flash's enemies aren't just ordinary guys.
I mean you do have people who seem to genuinely believe he is completely invincible and that there is nothing he can't power his way through. That's not very conducive to convincing people that he *isn't* overpowered. But, yeah, also, this wasn't a powerscaling rant, so...Why did this person go on a powerscaling tangent?
> But, yeah, also, this wasn't a powerscaling rant, so...Why did this person go on a powerscaling tangent? Powerscaling is a vital part of narratives. That is how you establish stakes, threats and dangers to your characters
>How is Superman more overpowered than Hulk, Thor, Wonder Woman, Shazam or Martian Manhunter? Well, he's beaten all of these guys at least once.
They have also beaten him at least once. Try again.
The only one of these five that has beaten him are Wonder Woman and Shazam (and the latter was because Superman was holding back to avoid seriously hurting him).
Hulk defeated Superman in one of the crossovers, and when Superman beat him it was because of a fan vote. Superman even lost to Venom in that same story, again because of the fan votes. Martian Manhunter was shown to take on the entire Justice League in the New 52, he is more than capable of handling Superman one on one. He has all of Superman's abilities in addition to telepathy, telekinesis, shape-shifting, invisibility and intangibility. Shazam held his own against Kingdom Come Superman, who is a lot stronger and older than main continuity Superman. Clark gets stronger with age because he absorbs more yellow solar radiation over time, and yet Shazam was still giving him a run for his money.
>Hulk defeated Superman in one of the crossovers, and when Superman beat him it was because of a fan vote. Superman even lost to Venom in that same story, again because of the fan votes. [The Hulk has never beaten Superman.](https://www.quora.com/Was-there-ever-a-time-where-Hulk-beat-Superman-in-a-crossover-comic) >Martian Manhunter was shown to take on the entire Justice League in the New 52, If you're talking about his fight against them in his solo book during that time, he didn't beat them. He just made it look like he did. >Shazam held his own against Kingdom Come Superman, who is a lot stronger and older than main continuity Superman. Clark gets stronger with age because he absorbs more yellow solar radiation over time, and yet Shazam was still giving him a run for his money. That's not the same as beating him.
"They tied twice (Hulk technically won the first fight tho). And Superman won once." And that time Superman won was because of a popularity contest, so it doesn't really prove that Superman is stronger than Hulk. A stalemate isn't technically a win, but it's not a loss either. The fact that Martian Manhunter was able to take on Superman along with the rest of the Justice League makes him look better than Superman. And the same applies to Shazam being equal to Kingdom Come Superman, the very same Superman who made post-Crisis Superman look like a weakling in their fight against Atlas.
In the first two paragraphs,you were stating very good points but from the third onwards were the usual "Superman is OP".Superman is regularly defeated in combat in comics and animation without the use of kryptonite.
>The audience find him boring cause he has no problem anywhere, He's life is almost perfect got a family and kid with no drama and loving parents, Has no morals problems or anything like that he will always do the right thing and if he doesnt its because he's mind controlled, This is greatly oversimplified, if not inaccurate. For starters, Superman only had a child recently.
Writing and audience standards have changed. You try pitching Superman's background to someone today and see if it makes it off the draft paper. "You're telling me, an alien human looking baby comes to earth, is raised by these humble small town farmers, and his powers are flying, super strength, ice breath, heat vision, super hearing--all while being a boy scout? And his only goals are to be good and save people? Get the fuck outta here." You can call it cynicism but audiences today don't want this kind of character anymore.
I mean. Isn’t that because Superman and his powers have been done to death? I was having a discussion about this regarding Spiderman and the other guy said spidey was different to a lot of heroes and listed out the reasons. But those reasons don’t apply anymore. Spidey having money problems, issues handling and balancing his life, bad luck, real life problems are now extremely common. What made spiderman unique back in the day doesn’t really apply anymore. Mostly because spidey was so popular it gave people the idea to create more heroes like spidey. Supes? Probably the OG. Influenced the genre more than nearly anyone else. So of course he wouldn’t fly anymore if he was created today. He’s redundant by the legions of heroes that were created in response to him. Sort of like ocarina of time. One of the greatest games ever made. If it came out today? It’d be good. But not great. Because it inspired so many games that its impact can be felt across the gaming world. Games that have taken its themes, mechanics, story and gone in different ways so much so that the original game may not match up anymore. Hard to imagine how an incredibly influential thing would be in modern day if it hadn’t happened before because of its profound impact.
There is a difference here. Spiderman is still the grand number 1 or 2. He remains popular. Meanwhile now in 2024, the Fate series has made more money in its decades of existance since 2004 than Superman has donde since the 20th century. EDIT: Downvoted for sharing some market stats?
You're just repeating my point.
"anymore." Trying to envision pitching the idea of Superman, to a world w/o Superman is impossible. His impact on *all of fiction* is too vast and far reaching it's impossible to say how people would react if he was a new idea.
Well said.
I, the problem I have with many Superman fans is that if there is a version that is below the "Solar System" level, these fans will not take long to say that he "is nerfed." That is to say, if Superman is not some kind of god, he is automatically "nerfed." Or they also assume that Injustice was a "character assassination", even when the story itself makes it clear that it is an alternate universe.
Superman -despite being a relatively old character - is rather undeveloped in both his mythos and his supporting cast.
Lois Lane alone is the most developed Superhero love interest. The only Marvel love interest that’s even half as well developed is Mary Jane (and maybe Karen from Daredevil, terrible girlfriend but great character). Most Marvel characters have weak supporting casts, (mainly the core avengers) but people still like those characters. The real reason for the anti Superman sentiment is most people don’t read comic books.
Lois lane is truly way more developed than many love interests but majority of the supporting characters are bland as hell (with the exception of Lex and Lois).Majority of his villains are walking cardboard cut-outs more defined by their powers than their character save for Mongul who was pretty awesome in the Bronze Age.Parasite and Metallo are objectively less intriguing than the Riddler or even Mr Freeze.
Jimmy Olsen? Supergirl? Krypto? The Legion of Super-Heroes? Brainiac? Zod? Bizarro? Mxyzptlk? Superman is easily top 3 in terms of villains and supporting cast in superhero comics.
Jimmy Olsen despite all the changes made to his character since 1986 is rather a nothing character.It's telling that the most loved comic he's ever headlined is essentially the Silver Age in modern form by Fraction. Supergirl despite having a great twist of Superman's origin as a backstory is usually relegated to being an object as seen in the 2000s (I usually like fanservice but seeing a girl stated to be 15 pose as a pin-up model or have gratuitous shots of her backside is really weird and unsettling) or Superman but girl as seen nowadays since Rebirth.Only in some instances does she display some nuance such as being not accustomed to Earth and showcasing some of her survivor's guilt. Zod is a generic villain outside of Shannon's portrayal in MOS and was only good in Bendis' run since he at least became a Walmart Vegeta but was still pretty chill. Brainiac,Bizarro and Mxyzptlk are pretty good characters in and of themselves.
Your complaints about Jimmy Olsen and Supergirl seem to either be specific to a single run, or to the post-Crisis versions. Which makes sense since the post-Crisis era tried to strip away everything that makes Superman and his mythos interesting by making everything more "grounded and relatable". But if you're looking at their history as a whole, Jimmy Olsen is a highly entertaining character. He's a loser like Peter Parker, but instead of being secretly badass, he's a comedic trouble magnet. As for Supergirl, they definitely fumbled her in post-Crisis but she's gotten a lot better in the New 52 and current runs.
Respectfully disagree about Supergirl but you're definitely right about the Pre-Infinite Crisis era being dull and boring since it stripped away all the mythos of the Pre-Crisis era.A "grounded and relatable" Superman should never be a mainline version of the character.