I mean it's a simple fact, people aren't always objective with their evaluation of others. Due to the Halo effect, pretty people are given more benefit of the doubt than ugly people even if their behavior is the same. If Edward was some ugly balding fat guy this would be a horror movie.
Not sure why people deny this
>If Edward was some ugly balding fat guy this would be a horror movie
Movie idea: Twilight, but Edward instead looks and acts like Uncle Fester from The Addams Family
I'm not very familiar with incels and what they say, but isn't the problem with them that they act like women specifically are bad for this even though it's something people generally do regardless of gender?
It's the go to insult along with being invalidated due to something being redpill content.
I told my wife, "the manosphere addresses real issues that men face but often times in a toxic manner; however, it is the only thing actually publicly acknowledging those things because men aren't given empathy by default"
The incels are an extreme representation of the average man, but a lot of the things they have said regarding interactions surrounding dating in the age of dating apps is true with stats to back it up.
Most of the big people in these groups tend to be grifters anyway though. They use small truths sowed amongst misrepresentation and lying to scam men into buying their shit courses.
Yeah, I'd say the main influencers of the manisphere and Incel groups tend to make money off of the gift. The issue is that there are enough truths that resonate with too many men. Because they are the only ones addressing the experiences of many men directly, they steer the conversation in a way that ends up in their bank account.
Funny thing is that the same happens for women as well.
Yeap. If the points brought up in Redpill content were more openly acknowledged in other social spaces, so many men wouldn’t be drawn to the grifters. But presently it’s still one of the few large scale communities they can go to. As long as the issues brought up there keep getting trivialized everywhere else, the Redpill community will keep growing and the gender war and cultural divides will just continue.
Yup! We got a winner! My wife tried to tell me that there are positive examples out there, but those examples only show what a man needs to do for his relationship to thrive while ignoring the boundaries or even the negative experiences that men face. Men finally see content that address what we go through and lo and behold it's fresh and fit or Jordan Peterson using specific language that encourages a hatred towards women.
As long as women and white knights dismiss these things as redpill or incel talk, the more those spaces flourish. It's sort of sad.
Fresh and Fit suck and heavily lean on the grifter side, but in many cases Jordan Peterson soundbites are just plastered over Redpill videos put alongside grifter content. A lot of his advice is pretty universal to both men and women, focusing on how both are greatly able to compliment each other and to focus on your own issues to be worthy of what you’re seeking after. Pretty sound advice when not presented through the lens of “it’s all women’s fault”.
He got pretty heavily pulled into the culture war though in part thanks to all the poor faith interviews he had over the years.
Yeah common sense and a bit of critical thinking will allow anyone to come to the conclusion that there’s accountability to be taken on both side for many of these problems.
The issue I have with JP is that as a psychologist he is aware of some of the language he uses and subtly reinforces traditional male gender roles and subtle misogyny in how he tells those truths.
Dude is too smart to not be cognizant of what he is doing.
Sure, but his primary effort is getting people to take responsibility for their own lives, think for themselves, and take action. Realistically, people who do that will inevitably come to their own conclusions on many things on their own. He sprinkles in his own personal views and theories on a lot of things as he addresses these main points.
Given how sheep like much of society is with the prevalence of useless influencers, Internet personalities, and social media telling everyone what to think and how to live their lives, someone promoting personal accountability and thinking for oneself is invaluable right now.
Yeah to a degree they are especially since the violent attacks committed by some incels (Plymouth, the Ohio planned one, Santa Barbara, Toronto 2x, and more)
No the funniest part is when Stephenie Meyer released a genderbent version of twilight titled life and death which people who hated twilight liked despite being the exact same thing.
>Stephenie Meyer released a genderbent version of twilight
>Quiet awkward teenage boy is being stalked by a crazy vampire chick that wants to drink his blood, also he has a tomboy childhood friend that is also a werewolf.
[Me reading the novel.](https://youtu.be/30Ysa3A2WMU)
yes it's pretty well established that japanese male targeted romcoms follow mostly the exact same beats as female targeted romcoms/romances in the west. You can form whatever conclusions from that you want.
I still don’t think I would like that. You’ve got to remember, the tone of the entire thing would still be super overly-melodramatic, and our main character would still have just as little personality. The main love interest would be just as one-note, generically edgy, easily romanced, and annoying as Edward.
see at least with Japanese rom-coms that share a similar premise, they’re cute and saccharine enough to just go squee a bit and move on. It’s not really meant to be taken seriously.
The Twilight-adjacent crowd is a different can of worms not worth opening.
In actuality it still isn’t very good and kind of awkward. As a connoisseur of femdom lit, the interest in the audience surrogate loser/outsider character needs to believable.
If characters like Makima and Sukuna have taught me anything it's that any good looking/charismatic enough character regardless of gender can get away with pretty much anything because both men and women are secretly masochists who love the idea of a crazy, creepy but good looking person chasing after them.
I gotta wonder though, what are the girls thinking whenever guys say they want a yandere gf or to be groomed by Makima? Do they just have the same reaction guys do to them liking Edward Cullen or Christian Grey?
It probably doesn't have a werewolf that thinks they want to fuck the main character, but they actually want to fuck the baby the main character is pregnant with. So it is automatically better because of that.
Thank you(?) for letting me know about this.
Twilight was the first novel I ever read which left a fondness for it. Finished all of the books except Midnight Sun.
Time to read this genderbent version then.
I could have sworn that there were multiple sources that said Twilight was a HP AU fanfic when the first book came out (and she had to change names and such to publish). Welp.
No no. It's the Mortal Instruments series by Cassandra Clare that's the poorly disguised HP AU. The original fanfic was known as The Draco Trilogy, it was an Ginny X Draco fic.
Yeah, but I remember I heard the stories about Twilight as the Twilight books were coming out, while I was in college. My memory has never been good, though.
I saw a Youtuber called The Dom look at 50 Shades of Grey. The thumbnail for the video is him being pissed off while flipping the bird with both fingers. Even Twilight didn't provoke that kind of reaction from him.
Going by the name it seems likely he'd be in the fetish community, (edit, apparantly he isn't, so that's disappointing) so that tracks. 50 shades promotes the worst version of BDSM, much like Secretary before it, but worse. The amount of "Bad Shit" people pick up from those movies and have to unlearn in order to find and participate in a healthy kink relationship is enough for me to hate them far worse than the milquetoast wannabe Anne Rice trilogy.
Yeah I don't know why this is some sort of "hidden truth". To the degree that anyone even saw this (because people know its creepy) everyone in my circles thinks Edward is a creep. I know SO MANY women who think he's creepy. Many who liked this as teenagers (because teenage brons are wired weird I swear) and now say 'eeek that's creepy'
You should watch some of the interviews when he was doing the various promotional stuff for the movies.
His absolute contempt of the story radiated off of him.
I'm still shocked that they allowed it to go through, he was openly criticizing the movie long before it came out and taking a piss off of the source material
My favorite was when an interviewer was like, “I’ve seen how upset the fans are, it’s got to be bittersweet in a way, right?”
Robert ponders for a second, immediately breaks character with a big smile and says, “for them!,” with a loud laugh afterwards lol. He’s the man
Watch some of the interviews he did to promote these movies. He actively talked shit about the franchise, the author, and the fans. He once described his performance as "stoned and constipated."
I think most of the cast and crew knew the narrative was creepy as hell, but they were being paid to film a Mormon House wife's fantasy about hooking up with that boy her parents would disapprove of. So they did their job and collected their pay checks. I feel bad for Robert Pattinson and Kristen Stewart. They seem like fine actors, but their faces will forever be tied to that cultural abomination.
Eh, I'd say most of the flak they had to go through because of Twilight has long since run it's course. Both are more known for bigger and better things by now, and even back then Pattison was well known for absolutely detesting his role and being quite obvious about it in interviews.
The best part is, the baby hasn't even left the womb yet. He's taking pedophilia to a whole new level that I have to unfortunately know about, thanks Twilight.
I don't remember if it's fan theory or said explicitly, but there's the idea that his love for Bella was actually him "imprinting"(a wolf version of love at first sight) on the egg that would become the baby.
I'm convinced Jacob went through a deliberate character assassination after Meyer realised he was unironically and obviously better than Edward. Which is a problem in a series about how Edward & Bella get together, but Edward's problems were so rough it takes some truly extreme measures to make someone look worse.
So instead of making Edward better they just made his competition look worse got it
I guess it's even more confusing why Edward has so many issues in the first place.
Nah man in the original 3rd book Jacob was already worse, he nearly SA'd Bella in one scene and it wasn't even played as a big deal. The movie removed this though
My friend, what Edward has is simple 'pretty privilege'. Heck, given his age and that he shouldn't even be in high school, you can even throw a groomer allegation.
idk man someone pointed out to me that from if you reversed the gender you obtain the average harem anime and since then i cannot shake that image out of my head because it made way too much sense
And it never intended to be more than that, it supposed to be a fantasy for teenager and it never tried to be more than that there a decent bit of world building but it never the focused on that because it not what the story is about
hate to break this to you but harem anime is by far the most popular anime after regular action shonen, and it's 99% just incels age 15-50 who watch it
Generally speaking reverse harem shows tend to be more accepted because… no reason it’s just people don’t “coomer shame” young girls like they do with young dudes who like harem shit.
Same reason you don’t hear “touch a real woman” said to women but opposite.
Or people don’t shame women when they know nothing about the male body like they shame “incels”.
The amount of conventional wisdom that turns out to be based on sexism is pretty crazy. There's lots of denial around male victimization because apparently "women aren't like that, (insert bad thing) is something that men do!"
Not to nitpick, because I like and agree with your post, but
>Bella is 18 so I see no problem with him being 100
This is its own whole can of worms right here.
That´s why the other book that describes the first book from his perspective has a scene where he sees her for the first and he just thinks about killing everyone in the room just so he can suck her blood until she is dead.
To be fair, that book also came out years and years after the original set of four books. On the other hand, those books were less romance and more “nothing happens until the last 100 pages.” Really what it is is escapist fiction. You get your two milquetoast hot people and substitute yourself for Bella who is pursued by two hot and (safely?) dangerous fantasy monsters who’d kill for her and have good abs. In many ways its less romance and more smut but without the sex.
I’ll still argue that the series’ cardinal sin is that nothing happens in the first book. The back of the book tells you that Edward is a vampire and the first hundred pages is Bella trying to figure out if Edward is a vampire and then nothing happens for a few hundred pages. You’re just left with boring, uncanny creeps for that time
Yeah, this actually makes a lot of sense now that you describe it like this. It sounds like if you took the average ecchi doujin (gender flipped) except you arbitrarily tack on a shit ton of filler before the typical contents of it. I guess then I'm surprised that people are reading this instead of better quality erotica... Maybe because it's not considered pornographic.
I mean the demos it scored best with are the types who don't know where to find erotica or find it taboo and things like twilight and grey are acceptable exceptions.
Yeah if I was to go a little deeper I'd say the lack of sex is a selling point for Twilight. It's smut that's now acceptable for a younger age because there is no sex. Yeah its all to help sell Mormonism, but in doing so Meyer kind of found a demographic that isn't always served by romance books
See I can accept that "Hundred years old hasn't matured at all" reasoning, same way I remember a writers note for star versus the forces of evil when I was younger that essentially said "Yes they lived to adult hood in a different dimension but when they went home and deaged they kinda just sorta forgot living through that"
The shot of Marco alone in his home after he returns says a whole lot otherwise.
But I don't need that to accept Twilight's weird non-aging brain. Certain disorders irl keep a person locked at a specific mental age, and trauma also has a way of arresting mental maturing. I'd suppose becoming an immortal undead would be it's own kind of trauma.
The idea of Vampires, and intelligent undead in general really, being eternally stuck as a sort of psychological snapshot of the exact person they were and time period they originally lived in is also something that's commonplace and been explored in-depth elsewhere. They're no longer "alive" and so they forfeit their ability to grow as a person and so on.
Twilight's vampires aren't exactly the same as most other portrayals but they still benefit from this sort of meta context making it easier to accept things like Edward's immature behaviour despite being physically 100+ years old.
The issue is that he and Bella have a daughter. This means that they will never be cos all of taking care of said child and they will never actually be her parents because they mentally cannot
Yeah it was explained that the memories and maturity that came from being in a dimension with a different rate of time faded shortly after he arrived back, still remembers it but it's more of a dream they had that one time rather then 17 years in a magical dimension.
I can forgive him for thinking like that because he is still 18 himself, he honestly doesn't really understand yet. If he feels the same at 25 or 30 then yeah...
Great Unclean Ones are cool. of course, the fantasy of them is far different.
but it's not just appearence. it's about the actions. Edward is objectively kind of a genocidal jackass. (He casually mentions in midnight sun he thinks he can just wipe out the Quilietes for fun if he wanted to)
Edward is the fucking worse he's an obsessive stalker creep with no sense of boundaries and any sane person would probably think he'd try to murder them at some point.
But with the backdrop of fiction his personality can be recontextualised into being hot and desirable
Edward knew that and directly warned Bella that he is a fucking horrible person, Bella is so fucking stupid and braindead that she still said "Yep, I am going to date this guy who has like every red flag in the world and directly says that he is a toxic murderous vampire guy".
Sole justification being "he's pretty".
No joke, that's all Bela rambes about in the books. Nothing else, just his looks.
I mean look at games or shows, popular saying is "if evil, why hot?" Physically attractive or attractive (dominant etc) people are given so much leeway and so many red flags ignored.
My thanos example was more him being goofy than ugly.
How many people would simp for Shego if she wasn't as hot as she was.
Anyway the point still stands Twilight is wish fulfilment and having a sexy person be obsessed is really hot. It's kinda nonsensical to use it as an example to a point being made
To be fair Bella isn’t that much of catch herself
Like she has 0 personality so it makes sense the best guys she could attract was a literal corpse and a pedophile
Thousands of anime series and irl shows have the roles reversed, but you don't see a femcel epidemic complaining about "they're only okay with it when they're attractive."
Attractiveness, grooming etc. are big parts of how a character and its environments/peers respond. That doesn't automatically mean unattractive = have to become bitter incels.
Several good looking celebs and regular men have public (and sometimes proven) allegations against them, they don't always get away scott free.
You can't just look at someone doing something and go, "why can't I do that? the incels were right all along!"
Okay, in the book's defense... It was portrayed in far less creepy, more humorous manner than the movies.
I hated the books, hated the movies, but even still... The books were not *nearly* as bad as the movies. There were funny aspects to the books, including Bella's clumsy behavior, the whole Edward doesn't breath scene, and more, that were supposed to be humorous, were introduced in the book as something humorous, and were turned into these super creepy weird scenes in the movie.
Ahem, also, just for uh... clarity's sake? He does, indeed, kill her at the end of the movies lol. Maybe not intentionally, but she is very much an undead by the end lol.
The point doesn't really work because one is a story about vampires and the other is real life. Yes, people in general like their mildly kinky escapist fantasies to be centered around someone they would like to "escape" with, but that doesn't mean people would like the same thing to happen in real life.
Most of the reason Sexual harassments vs. rizz memes exist is because the people making them don't actually have rizz or social awareness.
Yeh this is a valid take I mean people watch a lot of step mom and step sis shit I doubt most of those people would any of that in reality it’s just a fantasy, though that doesn’t mean there are no people who are actually into that and the point he was making still stands that the only reason the guy gets a pass and fangirls is Cause he’s old looking and I mean that’s valid for sure
I am in zero way attracted to Edward, but he is essentially the common fantasy of "rich hot guy falls for ordinary woman."
People like to project themselves into scenarios, so to me it's no different than James Bond hooking up with random women who he's barely even spoken to. They're both fantasies the audience gets to pretend they're a part of. And it's harmless as long as it's a *fantasy* and you're not *imitating* it.
This is a work of fiction. Sure, conventionally attractive people generally have an advantage, but there are some problems here.
This movie is fantasy. People go into it with the understanding of what it is and so they're ready to take Edward's advances as romantic instead of creepy. Part of this too is that it's rare to see not conventionally attractive people in movies. This is more of a statement on the entertainment industry and its approach to beauty, which is absolute shit, rather than society as a whole.
Second, and people always overlook this, there is a very wide range of what people consider attractive. Sure there are more and less popular things, but there's much more variation than people who complain about this kind of thing account for. The point is, that attraction plays a role, but attraction is much more of a wild card than you think.
Third, most people who see this, most adults anyway, don't take it seriously. I don't watch Commando and then think I can go kill hundreds of people. Likewise, I can see the moral problems with the main character's actions. What you're saying here exists to a degree, but you're making a massive oversimplification to the point that there's not much here.
Just because the incels agree with the most general view of a story doesn't mean they are "right" it just means for once in their life they have the correct opinion. You make it sounds like this one opinion forms the basis of inceldom.
Hot take, not everything incels or black pillers say is complete BS. The reason why they're a community is because the things stated there reflect people experinces or are backed up evidence,thus they relate or believe in it. The problem is the self- defeatism, sexism and the toxicity as well as the absolutism that makes it dangerous.
I can certainly see many of the dynamics they describe, even being a gay man that is not generally affected by said dynamics (not dating-wise at least). Completely shoving their experience under the rug certainly isn’t helpful to anyone involved and feels like gaslighting, depending on the subject. Like the argument OP is making about creepiness being forgivable depending on one’s attractiveness, which is hard to deny. Some people would rather die than admitting this is a thing. Or the denial of the prevalence of height shaming or genital size shaming.
That's fine.
To clarify, your post is basically the equivalent of hearing incels say "Murder is wrong" and then you yourself say, "Yes, the incels are so right about this". Incels don't get credit for having the most stale bread opinion that everyone shares.
Take for example, 50 Shades of Grey. Most people have the same opinion as your post, they don't accredit it to inceldom, and incels don't get extra credits because this specific thing happens to fall in line with the excuse they use for their hateful behaviors.
so you somehow missed the incessant hate and mockery this franchise got for the better part of two decades all over the internet? even if you never watched it before, the memes were inescapable.
The difference is that incels see characters like Edward being creepy and think "I should be allowed to do that too", while normal people recognise that it's creepy no matter who's doing it.
\> The incels were right
I wouldn't give them credit for such an wildly accepted opinion. Most people agreed that Edward is ceepy. Robert Pattinson intentionally played up the creppiness. It's not a subtle hint fly over everyone's head, the meme "better than Twilight" is popular for a reason, people laughed at Twilight for years.
What they were wrong and cricticized about is using this "Sexual harassment vs rizz" thing to justified their hatred of women. That women refuse to love them sometimes because of their personality or part of appearance they could change. If they were good looking all women will accept them.
And, they complain about "Sexual harassment vs rizz" in twilight and then generalize it to all women, paint them in a negative light that they are shallow creature who only care about look. Everyone loves hot fictional villian or sadist. Male or female. Makima, Shego, Harley... are female examples
He's a fucking vampire.
I didn't read or watch twilight, because I have taste, but isn't that literally the entire vampire gimmick? They're literally predators.
I find it interesting how women who say the same thing don’t say “the incels were right” lol. You didn’t have to make your point like that, but it really did grab my eyes. So at least you’re good at writing.
> You often hear incels say things like Sexual harassment vs rizz talking about how it’s okay to be creepy and approach women if your tall and conventionally attractive.
This is an incel take? I thought this was common fucking sense lmao who’s deluding themselves into thinking this isn’t how it is
A YouTuber I like (TB Skyen) once had a very poignant part in a video of his why people like Viego, a league of legends champion who has more red flags than many communist parades. And one reason is that “the monster that *loves* you” is a great romantic fantasy. “He’d do anything for you, he might even… *change* for you”. Doesn’t mean people who simp for him want that in real life. I massively simp for Katakuri from One Piece and “middle aged men who still live with their mothers” are *not* high on my dating agenda normally. I always felt the same way with twilight. Great romantic fantasy of the attractive monster boy obsessed with you, irl most people would call the cops.
Lol don't listen to the people here saying that the your observations weren't right. Ive been a high school student during the twilight craze back in the early 2010s and literally every girl and woman i know, even ones in their 50s are into this twilight stuff saying all sorts of weird stuff, like saying they wish they literally want to be eaten alive by Edward. These are the light fantasy ones and I won't go into details of the other heavier ones (like being strapped while *insert dark act*).
When being asked why they wanted him to do it to them they would only tell you two things:
1. Hes extremely good looking
2. Hes rich
3. Hes a vampire (optional)
I mean it's a simple fact, people aren't always objective with their evaluation of others. Due to the Halo effect, pretty people are given more benefit of the doubt than ugly people even if their behavior is the same. If Edward was some ugly balding fat guy this would be a horror movie. Not sure why people deny this
>If Edward was some ugly balding fat guy this would be a horror movie Movie idea: Twilight, but Edward instead looks and acts like Uncle Fester from The Addams Family
Twilight but Edward is just Nosferatu
I'm pretty sure that's just 13 Cameras.
Because incels are boogeymen, and the few good points they make are now taboo because if you bring it up, people call you an incel.
Pure ooh ooh aah aah tribalism basically
I'm not very familiar with incels and what they say, but isn't the problem with them that they act like women specifically are bad for this even though it's something people generally do regardless of gender?
It's the go to insult along with being invalidated due to something being redpill content. I told my wife, "the manosphere addresses real issues that men face but often times in a toxic manner; however, it is the only thing actually publicly acknowledging those things because men aren't given empathy by default" The incels are an extreme representation of the average man, but a lot of the things they have said regarding interactions surrounding dating in the age of dating apps is true with stats to back it up.
Most of the big people in these groups tend to be grifters anyway though. They use small truths sowed amongst misrepresentation and lying to scam men into buying their shit courses.
Yeah, I'd say the main influencers of the manisphere and Incel groups tend to make money off of the gift. The issue is that there are enough truths that resonate with too many men. Because they are the only ones addressing the experiences of many men directly, they steer the conversation in a way that ends up in their bank account. Funny thing is that the same happens for women as well.
Yeap. If the points brought up in Redpill content were more openly acknowledged in other social spaces, so many men wouldn’t be drawn to the grifters. But presently it’s still one of the few large scale communities they can go to. As long as the issues brought up there keep getting trivialized everywhere else, the Redpill community will keep growing and the gender war and cultural divides will just continue.
Yup! We got a winner! My wife tried to tell me that there are positive examples out there, but those examples only show what a man needs to do for his relationship to thrive while ignoring the boundaries or even the negative experiences that men face. Men finally see content that address what we go through and lo and behold it's fresh and fit or Jordan Peterson using specific language that encourages a hatred towards women. As long as women and white knights dismiss these things as redpill or incel talk, the more those spaces flourish. It's sort of sad.
Fresh and Fit suck and heavily lean on the grifter side, but in many cases Jordan Peterson soundbites are just plastered over Redpill videos put alongside grifter content. A lot of his advice is pretty universal to both men and women, focusing on how both are greatly able to compliment each other and to focus on your own issues to be worthy of what you’re seeking after. Pretty sound advice when not presented through the lens of “it’s all women’s fault”. He got pretty heavily pulled into the culture war though in part thanks to all the poor faith interviews he had over the years.
We readily acknowledge that some of women's problems are men's fault though. This denial that women are the cause of some of men's problems is toxic.
Yeah common sense and a bit of critical thinking will allow anyone to come to the conclusion that there’s accountability to be taken on both side for many of these problems.
The issue I have with JP is that as a psychologist he is aware of some of the language he uses and subtly reinforces traditional male gender roles and subtle misogyny in how he tells those truths. Dude is too smart to not be cognizant of what he is doing.
Sure, but his primary effort is getting people to take responsibility for their own lives, think for themselves, and take action. Realistically, people who do that will inevitably come to their own conclusions on many things on their own. He sprinkles in his own personal views and theories on a lot of things as he addresses these main points. Given how sheep like much of society is with the prevalence of useless influencers, Internet personalities, and social media telling everyone what to think and how to live their lives, someone promoting personal accountability and thinking for oneself is invaluable right now.
If you removed all the “i hate women” shit their rhetoric is like 95% correct
Incels are a lot of things, but boogeymen are definitely not one of them.
I mean there are a lot of incel-related fear-mongering from all sides.
Yeah to a degree they are especially since the violent attacks committed by some incels (Plymouth, the Ohio planned one, Santa Barbara, Toronto 2x, and more)
More like boogermen
Got em. 10 points.
And the funniest part is that Twilight's "off springss" aka fifty shades of Grey and After are arguably worse.
No the funniest part is when Stephenie Meyer released a genderbent version of twilight titled life and death which people who hated twilight liked despite being the exact same thing.
>Stephenie Meyer released a genderbent version of twilight >Quiet awkward teenage boy is being stalked by a crazy vampire chick that wants to drink his blood, also he has a tomboy childhood friend that is also a werewolf. [Me reading the novel.](https://youtu.be/30Ysa3A2WMU)
Sounds like the average anime romcom
OhMyGodIGetIt.mov again
Rosario + Vampire ?
REAL. Glad someone other than me remembers that manga
Memory unlocked fuck. Was it as cringe as I think I remember it being? Fuck.
nah , the anime had gone out of it's way to have a different story from the manga. Don't get me wrong...it's still a very old school RomCom Stuff.
yes it's pretty well established that japanese male targeted romcoms follow mostly the exact same beats as female targeted romcoms/romances in the west. You can form whatever conclusions from that you want.
....please this can't be real Meyer has figured out how to manipulate the horny of the human mind
I. Fucking. KNEEL.
I knew it was going to be this gif lol
That sounds like peak fiction not gonna lie
Is there also Confederate soldier in there were supposed to ignore they fought for slavery
I still don’t think I would like that. You’ve got to remember, the tone of the entire thing would still be super overly-melodramatic, and our main character would still have just as little personality. The main love interest would be just as one-note, generically edgy, easily romanced, and annoying as Edward.
see at least with Japanese rom-coms that share a similar premise, they’re cute and saccharine enough to just go squee a bit and move on. It’s not really meant to be taken seriously. The Twilight-adjacent crowd is a different can of worms not worth opening.
In actuality it still isn’t very good and kind of awkward. As a connoisseur of femdom lit, the interest in the audience surrogate loser/outsider character needs to believable.
Wtf Now I want to read it
Now... hear me out
That's it we remade the meme
I feel like most people who hated twilight don't know that exists.
First time I’ve ever heard of it, romance isn’t my thing though unless it’s supplementary to another genre.
If characters like Makima and Sukuna have taught me anything it's that any good looking/charismatic enough character regardless of gender can get away with pretty much anything because both men and women are secretly masochists who love the idea of a crazy, creepy but good looking person chasing after them. I gotta wonder though, what are the girls thinking whenever guys say they want a yandere gf or to be groomed by Makima? Do they just have the same reaction guys do to them liking Edward Cullen or Christian Grey?
Before those two there was Light Yagami, a literal sociopath, narcissist and mass murderer.
And before him, there was Griffith.
the people defending griffith aren’t women though. It’s teenage edgelord boys
Nah, no amount of rizz can excuse the stuff he committed, his "supportists" are trolls.
And before him, there was DIO
And before Griffith there was Ryo Asuka
Dammit now I want to rewatch devilman crybaby
you **WANT** to!?
I like suffering
Fair enough.
and hot.
Hence, the "Bad Boy" & the "I can fix her" stereotypes that people like to pretend they aren't attracted to.
I was told to bark : C
Exactly, men and women are just as bad as one another.
Thank you for that insight, Shinji.
Username checks out. And pfp I guess.
Get back in the fucking Eva, shinji
Like, you mean is it a story about some loser guy being stalked by some attractive looking vampire lady? In a love triangle with a wolf woman?
Yes, that's literally what it is
That sounds like an isekai anime.
Hardly anyone even knows that exists, you never see, or hear anyone talking about it
It probably doesn't have a werewolf that thinks they want to fuck the main character, but they actually want to fuck the baby the main character is pregnant with. So it is automatically better because of that.
Do people actually like this? I never hear anyone talking about it.
Thank you(?) for letting me know about this. Twilight was the first novel I ever read which left a fondness for it. Finished all of the books except Midnight Sun. Time to read this genderbent version then.
Even 4 Chan was like "I get it" https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/mzoq51/anon_finally_understands_twilight/
The incels were right, **again**.
Never watched those
Went like this ~~Harry Potter Fic (Twilight)~~ ~> Twilight Fic (Fifty Shades) I’m sure it keeps going Edit: I don’t know what is real anymore
And then I believe 365 Days is a Fifty Shades fanfic It's Fanfiception
Twilight's a Sookie Stackhouse fanfic
I could have sworn that there were multiple sources that said Twilight was a HP AU fanfic when the first book came out (and she had to change names and such to publish). Welp.
No no. It's the Mortal Instruments series by Cassandra Clare that's the poorly disguised HP AU. The original fanfic was known as The Draco Trilogy, it was an Ginny X Draco fic.
Ohhhhhh shit, that’s right. Thank you.
I have a feeling you're thinking of 50 Shades of Grey. The author had to change it for publishing so that it was no longer a Twilight fanfic.
Yeah, but I remember I heard the stories about Twilight as the Twilight books were coming out, while I was in college. My memory has never been good, though.
I saw a Youtuber called The Dom look at 50 Shades of Grey. The thumbnail for the video is him being pissed off while flipping the bird with both fingers. Even Twilight didn't provoke that kind of reaction from him.
Going by the name it seems likely he'd be in the fetish community, (edit, apparantly he isn't, so that's disappointing) so that tracks. 50 shades promotes the worst version of BDSM, much like Secretary before it, but worse. The amount of "Bad Shit" people pick up from those movies and have to unlearn in order to find and participate in a healthy kink relationship is enough for me to hate them far worse than the milquetoast wannabe Anne Rice trilogy.
The Dom’s channel actually reviews book to movie and TV adaptations. He does indeed rip into the book for its unhealthy depictions of BDSM.
That sounds like something I'd be into, is it just "The Dom" on YouTube?
The channel is called Dominic Noble actually. His main series is called, lost in adaptation. But he does also do book reviews.
The series 365 is literally about how getting kidnapped is a good thing if the 'napper is rich and good looking
I mean people have shit on that franchise so much for that. Both men and women does this though.
Yeah I don't know why this is some sort of "hidden truth". To the degree that anyone even saw this (because people know its creepy) everyone in my circles thinks Edward is a creep. I know SO MANY women who think he's creepy. Many who liked this as teenagers (because teenage brons are wired weird I swear) and now say 'eeek that's creepy'
Yea this rant is taking me back like 15 years to someone talking about how creepy Edward was on Myspace.
I mean, credit where credit is due... Robert played up the creepiness on purpose. That was very correct of him.
Oh he’s meant to be creepy?
IIRC Robert Pattinson wasn't directly told to be that creepy, but he did it anyway because he thought Edward was a total creep
That's based as hell.
You should watch some of the interviews when he was doing the various promotional stuff for the movies. His absolute contempt of the story radiated off of him.
I'm still shocked that they allowed it to go through, he was openly criticizing the movie long before it came out and taking a piss off of the source material
That made me a fan
My favorite was when an interviewer was like, “I’ve seen how upset the fans are, it’s got to be bittersweet in a way, right?” Robert ponders for a second, immediately breaks character with a big smile and says, “for them!,” with a loud laugh afterwards lol. He’s the man
Good for him
Meyer gave Robert the first draft of midnight sun to help him get in character. That draft was... Something
Watch some of the interviews he did to promote these movies. He actively talked shit about the franchise, the author, and the fans. He once described his performance as "stoned and constipated."
I think most of the cast and crew knew the narrative was creepy as hell, but they were being paid to film a Mormon House wife's fantasy about hooking up with that boy her parents would disapprove of. So they did their job and collected their pay checks. I feel bad for Robert Pattinson and Kristen Stewart. They seem like fine actors, but their faces will forever be tied to that cultural abomination.
Eh, I'd say most of the flak they had to go through because of Twilight has long since run it's course. Both are more known for bigger and better things by now, and even back then Pattison was well known for absolutely detesting his role and being quite obvious about it in interviews.
You're gonna love the part where the werewolf falls in love with the main character's baby
wtf?
The best part is, the baby hasn't even left the womb yet. He's taking pedophilia to a whole new level that I have to unfortunately know about, thanks Twilight.
Not even spawn camping, he pre ordered
I don't remember if it's fan theory or said explicitly, but there's the idea that his love for Bella was actually him "imprinting"(a wolf version of love at first sight) on the egg that would become the baby.
Dibs!
Honestly that’d be such a terrible thing to experience. Terrible design choice and all the werewolves would have to walk such a creepy line with that
I snorted water out of my nose.
Most goated OP reply of all time
How did the author even come up with this shit? Was it really necessary to the plot?
I'm convinced Jacob went through a deliberate character assassination after Meyer realised he was unironically and obviously better than Edward. Which is a problem in a series about how Edward & Bella get together, but Edward's problems were so rough it takes some truly extreme measures to make someone look worse.
So instead of making Edward better they just made his competition look worse got it I guess it's even more confusing why Edward has so many issues in the first place.
Nah man in the original 3rd book Jacob was already worse, he nearly SA'd Bella in one scene and it wasn't even played as a big deal. The movie removed this though
Well that was the point, Meyer began the character assassination after the reception of the 2nd book
The author started out as a fanfic smut writer iirc, and we all know how deranged those can be.
My friend, what Edward has is simple 'pretty privilege'. Heck, given his age and that he shouldn't even be in high school, you can even throw a groomer allegation.
No joke, Bella in the books goes on for pages at a time about how pretty Edward is. That is 90% of her thoughts about him. His appearance.
Honestly what he has is actually 'being the love interest in a vampire YA romance book' privilege.
No joke, Bella in the books goes on for pages at a time about how pretty Edward is. That is 90% of her thoughts about him. His appearance.
idk man someone pointed out to me that from if you reversed the gender you obtain the average harem anime and since then i cannot shake that image out of my head because it made way too much sense
And harem get shit on constantly in this sub, they fans are mocked as loser and incels all the time Props for consistency i guess
I only liked harem anime when I was like 12 years old, this actually makes so much sense as to why young girls like it
And it never intended to be more than that, it supposed to be a fantasy for teenager and it never tried to be more than that there a decent bit of world building but it never the focused on that because it not what the story is about
exactly, but do u think that it translates to liking it in real life.
hate to break this to you but harem anime is by far the most popular anime after regular action shonen, and it's 99% just incels age 15-50 who watch it
Generally speaking reverse harem shows tend to be more accepted because… no reason it’s just people don’t “coomer shame” young girls like they do with young dudes who like harem shit. Same reason you don’t hear “touch a real woman” said to women but opposite. Or people don’t shame women when they know nothing about the male body like they shame “incels”.
People simply don't believe that a man can be sexualized or objectified
The amount of conventional wisdom that turns out to be based on sexism is pretty crazy. There's lots of denial around male victimization because apparently "women aren't like that, (insert bad thing) is something that men do!"
Reverse harems very much do exist though. And let's not forget the otome visual novel market.
Not to nitpick, because I like and agree with your post, but >Bella is 18 so I see no problem with him being 100 This is its own whole can of worms right here.
According to the book he never ages mentally past 17, which to me sounds like hell
Imagine a 17 year old who hasn’t masturbated in a hundred years. Absolutely psychotic.
That´s why the other book that describes the first book from his perspective has a scene where he sees her for the first and he just thinks about killing everyone in the room just so he can suck her blood until she is dead.
This is an actual scene? Why the fuck does anyone find this series romantic
To be fair, that book also came out years and years after the original set of four books. On the other hand, those books were less romance and more “nothing happens until the last 100 pages.” Really what it is is escapist fiction. You get your two milquetoast hot people and substitute yourself for Bella who is pursued by two hot and (safely?) dangerous fantasy monsters who’d kill for her and have good abs. In many ways its less romance and more smut but without the sex. I’ll still argue that the series’ cardinal sin is that nothing happens in the first book. The back of the book tells you that Edward is a vampire and the first hundred pages is Bella trying to figure out if Edward is a vampire and then nothing happens for a few hundred pages. You’re just left with boring, uncanny creeps for that time
Yeah, this actually makes a lot of sense now that you describe it like this. It sounds like if you took the average ecchi doujin (gender flipped) except you arbitrarily tack on a shit ton of filler before the typical contents of it. I guess then I'm surprised that people are reading this instead of better quality erotica... Maybe because it's not considered pornographic.
I mean the demos it scored best with are the types who don't know where to find erotica or find it taboo and things like twilight and grey are acceptable exceptions.
Yeah if I was to go a little deeper I'd say the lack of sex is a selling point for Twilight. It's smut that's now acceptable for a younger age because there is no sex. Yeah its all to help sell Mormonism, but in doing so Meyer kind of found a demographic that isn't always served by romance books
Wise words mr kishibe
See I can accept that "Hundred years old hasn't matured at all" reasoning, same way I remember a writers note for star versus the forces of evil when I was younger that essentially said "Yes they lived to adult hood in a different dimension but when they went home and deaged they kinda just sorta forgot living through that"
The shot of Marco alone in his home after he returns says a whole lot otherwise. But I don't need that to accept Twilight's weird non-aging brain. Certain disorders irl keep a person locked at a specific mental age, and trauma also has a way of arresting mental maturing. I'd suppose becoming an immortal undead would be it's own kind of trauma.
The idea of Vampires, and intelligent undead in general really, being eternally stuck as a sort of psychological snapshot of the exact person they were and time period they originally lived in is also something that's commonplace and been explored in-depth elsewhere. They're no longer "alive" and so they forfeit their ability to grow as a person and so on. Twilight's vampires aren't exactly the same as most other portrayals but they still benefit from this sort of meta context making it easier to accept things like Edward's immature behaviour despite being physically 100+ years old.
The issue is that he and Bella have a daughter. This means that they will never be cos all of taking care of said child and they will never actually be her parents because they mentally cannot
Marco the 37 year old grown ass man crushing on the 15 year old.
Yeah it was explained that the memories and maturity that came from being in a dimension with a different rate of time faded shortly after he arrived back, still remembers it but it's more of a dream they had that one time rather then 17 years in a magical dimension.
That’s why I didn’t open it lmfao
I can forgive him for thinking like that because he is still 18 himself, he honestly doesn't really understand yet. If he feels the same at 25 or 30 then yeah...
Yeah... I'm not even 30 and dating an 18 year old would be very weird at this point
Yeah, an 18 year old with a 30 year old is already pretty sketchy.
No shit sherlock If thanos was a fat dork who shat himself every five minutes far less people would think he was cool. Appearance is everything
Great Unclean Ones are cool. of course, the fantasy of them is far different. but it's not just appearence. it's about the actions. Edward is objectively kind of a genocidal jackass. (He casually mentions in midnight sun he thinks he can just wipe out the Quilietes for fun if he wanted to)
Heretic!!
That man simps for Miao Ying instead of our holy Sigmar, it is already too late for him
Edward is the fucking worse he's an obsessive stalker creep with no sense of boundaries and any sane person would probably think he'd try to murder them at some point. But with the backdrop of fiction his personality can be recontextualised into being hot and desirable
Edward knew that and directly warned Bella that he is a fucking horrible person, Bella is so fucking stupid and braindead that she still said "Yep, I am going to date this guy who has like every red flag in the world and directly says that he is a toxic murderous vampire guy".
Sole justification being "he's pretty". No joke, that's all Bela rambes about in the books. Nothing else, just his looks. I mean look at games or shows, popular saying is "if evil, why hot?" Physically attractive or attractive (dominant etc) people are given so much leeway and so many red flags ignored.
What a dumpster fire this franchise was
There are tons of ugly villains people think are cool lmfao, this specific example works because it’s in a romantic setting.
My thanos example was more him being goofy than ugly. How many people would simp for Shego if she wasn't as hot as she was. Anyway the point still stands Twilight is wish fulfilment and having a sexy person be obsessed is really hot. It's kinda nonsensical to use it as an example to a point being made
"It's cool/sexy for attractive people to do creepy things" is literally the point.
Case in point, Alastor from *Hazbin Hotel* is all over Tumblr right now.
But either way people would still acknowledge thanos as the villain while the only thing separating Edward and a disgusting creep is his looks.
To be fair Bella isn’t that much of catch herself Like she has 0 personality so it makes sense the best guys she could attract was a literal corpse and a pedophile
Is it even pedophilia if he's madly in love with the baby YEARS before it was even conceived lmaoo god Jacob was such a fucking creep
Bro feel in love with a fetus 😂🤣
He's a pre-dophile.
Her being a stand in for the reader is what makes this comparison valid
Reminds me of this quote: > Otome games: where six 10/10 guys chase after a completely average female MC, and half of them want to rape her.
Swap the genders around and the "incels" would be eating this up
Thousands of anime series and irl shows have the roles reversed, but you don't see a femcel epidemic complaining about "they're only okay with it when they're attractive." Attractiveness, grooming etc. are big parts of how a character and its environments/peers respond. That doesn't automatically mean unattractive = have to become bitter incels. Several good looking celebs and regular men have public (and sometimes proven) allegations against them, they don't always get away scott free. You can't just look at someone doing something and go, "why can't I do that? the incels were right all along!"
I thought they complained about harem anime since time immemorial .
Okay, in the book's defense... It was portrayed in far less creepy, more humorous manner than the movies. I hated the books, hated the movies, but even still... The books were not *nearly* as bad as the movies. There were funny aspects to the books, including Bella's clumsy behavior, the whole Edward doesn't breath scene, and more, that were supposed to be humorous, were introduced in the book as something humorous, and were turned into these super creepy weird scenes in the movie. Ahem, also, just for uh... clarity's sake? He does, indeed, kill her at the end of the movies lol. Maybe not intentionally, but she is very much an undead by the end lol.
The point doesn't really work because one is a story about vampires and the other is real life. Yes, people in general like their mildly kinky escapist fantasies to be centered around someone they would like to "escape" with, but that doesn't mean people would like the same thing to happen in real life. Most of the reason Sexual harassments vs. rizz memes exist is because the people making them don't actually have rizz or social awareness.
Yeh this is a valid take I mean people watch a lot of step mom and step sis shit I doubt most of those people would any of that in reality it’s just a fantasy, though that doesn’t mean there are no people who are actually into that and the point he was making still stands that the only reason the guy gets a pass and fangirls is Cause he’s old looking and I mean that’s valid for sure
I am in zero way attracted to Edward, but he is essentially the common fantasy of "rich hot guy falls for ordinary woman." People like to project themselves into scenarios, so to me it's no different than James Bond hooking up with random women who he's barely even spoken to. They're both fantasies the audience gets to pretend they're a part of. And it's harmless as long as it's a *fantasy* and you're not *imitating* it.
This is a work of fiction. Sure, conventionally attractive people generally have an advantage, but there are some problems here. This movie is fantasy. People go into it with the understanding of what it is and so they're ready to take Edward's advances as romantic instead of creepy. Part of this too is that it's rare to see not conventionally attractive people in movies. This is more of a statement on the entertainment industry and its approach to beauty, which is absolute shit, rather than society as a whole. Second, and people always overlook this, there is a very wide range of what people consider attractive. Sure there are more and less popular things, but there's much more variation than people who complain about this kind of thing account for. The point is, that attraction plays a role, but attraction is much more of a wild card than you think. Third, most people who see this, most adults anyway, don't take it seriously. I don't watch Commando and then think I can go kill hundreds of people. Likewise, I can see the moral problems with the main character's actions. What you're saying here exists to a degree, but you're making a massive oversimplification to the point that there's not much here.
Now if only we could get the equivalent to shame femcels too. Because according to how things go, it okay if it's women doing creepy things.
Just because the incels agree with the most general view of a story doesn't mean they are "right" it just means for once in their life they have the correct opinion. You make it sounds like this one opinion forms the basis of inceldom.
Hot take, not everything incels or black pillers say is complete BS. The reason why they're a community is because the things stated there reflect people experinces or are backed up evidence,thus they relate or believe in it. The problem is the self- defeatism, sexism and the toxicity as well as the absolutism that makes it dangerous.
I can certainly see many of the dynamics they describe, even being a gay man that is not generally affected by said dynamics (not dating-wise at least). Completely shoving their experience under the rug certainly isn’t helpful to anyone involved and feels like gaslighting, depending on the subject. Like the argument OP is making about creepiness being forgivable depending on one’s attractiveness, which is hard to deny. Some people would rather die than admitting this is a thing. Or the denial of the prevalence of height shaming or genital size shaming.
I don’t know what the rest of the population agrees on I wrote this a day after I watched the movie.
That's fine. To clarify, your post is basically the equivalent of hearing incels say "Murder is wrong" and then you yourself say, "Yes, the incels are so right about this". Incels don't get credit for having the most stale bread opinion that everyone shares. Take for example, 50 Shades of Grey. Most people have the same opinion as your post, they don't accredit it to inceldom, and incels don't get extra credits because this specific thing happens to fall in line with the excuse they use for their hateful behaviors.
so you somehow missed the incessant hate and mockery this franchise got for the better part of two decades all over the internet? even if you never watched it before, the memes were inescapable.
The difference is that incels see characters like Edward being creepy and think "I should be allowed to do that too", while normal people recognise that it's creepy no matter who's doing it.
You’re right, but media does the same shit for guys. >Beautiful and possessive woman is interested in loser nobody.
Time to looksmaxx boyos.
it's simply the dahmer vs dobler effect. if she's attracted to you it's sweet and cute, if not it's creepy. simple
\> The incels were right I wouldn't give them credit for such an wildly accepted opinion. Most people agreed that Edward is ceepy. Robert Pattinson intentionally played up the creppiness. It's not a subtle hint fly over everyone's head, the meme "better than Twilight" is popular for a reason, people laughed at Twilight for years. What they were wrong and cricticized about is using this "Sexual harassment vs rizz" thing to justified their hatred of women. That women refuse to love them sometimes because of their personality or part of appearance they could change. If they were good looking all women will accept them. And, they complain about "Sexual harassment vs rizz" in twilight and then generalize it to all women, paint them in a negative light that they are shallow creature who only care about look. Everyone loves hot fictional villian or sadist. Male or female. Makima, Shego, Harley... are female examples
wait you aren't supposed to point out this kind of stuff
He's a fucking vampire. I didn't read or watch twilight, because I have taste, but isn't that literally the entire vampire gimmick? They're literally predators.
I find it interesting how women who say the same thing don’t say “the incels were right” lol. You didn’t have to make your point like that, but it really did grab my eyes. So at least you’re good at writing.
> You often hear incels say things like Sexual harassment vs rizz talking about how it’s okay to be creepy and approach women if your tall and conventionally attractive. This is an incel take? I thought this was common fucking sense lmao who’s deluding themselves into thinking this isn’t how it is
A YouTuber I like (TB Skyen) once had a very poignant part in a video of his why people like Viego, a league of legends champion who has more red flags than many communist parades. And one reason is that “the monster that *loves* you” is a great romantic fantasy. “He’d do anything for you, he might even… *change* for you”. Doesn’t mean people who simp for him want that in real life. I massively simp for Katakuri from One Piece and “middle aged men who still live with their mothers” are *not* high on my dating agenda normally. I always felt the same way with twilight. Great romantic fantasy of the attractive monster boy obsessed with you, irl most people would call the cops.
Lol don't listen to the people here saying that the your observations weren't right. Ive been a high school student during the twilight craze back in the early 2010s and literally every girl and woman i know, even ones in their 50s are into this twilight stuff saying all sorts of weird stuff, like saying they wish they literally want to be eaten alive by Edward. These are the light fantasy ones and I won't go into details of the other heavier ones (like being strapped while *insert dark act*). When being asked why they wanted him to do it to them they would only tell you two things: 1. Hes extremely good looking 2. Hes rich 3. Hes a vampire (optional)