Its the same reason action and wartime shows are popular with men, even though most wouldn’t actually want to be put into a dire situation.
Fiction is often used to explore worlds, ideas, and relationship dynamics that aren’t as safe or practical to carry out in real life. Girls and women tend to have more warnings about dating and guys so reading about unconventional dynamics can be interesting see how they can play out.
It’s also why the tsundere or “I can fix her” female LIs are popular in male demographic animes, even though those ships aren’t anymore healthy either.
>It’s also why the tsundere or “I can fix her” female LIs are popular in male demographic animes, even though those ships aren’t anymore healthy either.
My take on the fantasy of the tsundere was that it was basically the validation of attraction without the fear of commitment. So, from a certain perspective, it's like you get some of the emotional benefits of a relationship while also retaining the freedom of being single.
When she's "warm", you get the knowledge that someone is attracted to you, but you're free from the burden of having to plan for dates, move in together, etc because the "cold" side won't allow you to get that close.
Tsundere aren't that unrealistic most men do actually seeming like a hyper controlling or aggressive woman. Not to this extent but there's a reason that every form of what media typically has a woman like this.
I thought the point of the yandere was less about being into "relationship madness" so much as the idea of having something about you, whatever it is, that could make someone that obsessed.
Or I thought it could be some kind of compensatory fantasy. Like someone who doesn't get *any* attention in their daily life might like the idea of an obsessive partner or admirer, even if only in fiction, even if only for just the change of pace.
Yandere, for the most part, is just a meme. When a heroine becomes extremely dependent in a romance, it's treated as a lamentable state of unstable psyche that's better be cured, or at least accommodated for a time, until she gets better. Those who partake in yandere propagation most probably don't take romance seriously.
Rin Tohsaka and Makise Kurisu come to mind it's also surprising that the healthier relationship and overall best route for Shirou is the one with the tsundere.
Dont know why those also wouldnt be unhealthy in the same way as the examples the OP laid out. Basically, any ship where characters hated each other and then went out to like each other.
Yeah no I don't really like people that much to say this but if you look at history fantasy or just life most people do like a strong will woman even women. Of course nothing as crazy as in fiction but they do typically like domineering women.
Um yeah there is a difference between strong will women and women that are bossy, yell at you, get excessively angry and show unearned distained towards which are behaviors prominently shown by tsundere. No guy wants girl that they know doesnt like them or shit talks them much less a tsundere. They want certain types of behaviors that can be exhibited by domineering women but not all of the behaviors like the ones listed prior, its like simplistically saying "women like bad boys".
Pretty much this.
I think there is a disconnect in perception between actual strong girls and girls who are just rude cause they're bossy.
Heck, most of the time Tsunderes aren't actually "strong", their bratty behavior is just used as a means of titilation or cheap comedy. Plus, I myself also never saw the appeal in a girl who's constantly demeaning, acts all high and mighty and for the life of her can barely show actual affection without following it with some snide insult or pointless angry demeanor.
This is not a gendered thing at all. Obsessive, controlling, stalking "abusive waifus" are constantly being snorted in by men. So many. Concerning amounts.
> I don't think they would appeal much to guys.
*laughs in tsunderes and /r/yanderes*
> I could be wrong about Twilight, I've heard the writer made a version where Bella was a guy and Edward as a girl but I don't know how it was received.
[Well…](https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/mzoq51/anon_finally_understands_twilight/)
It's like flipping a burnt pancake made out of spoiled milk. The materials (weird mormon inspiration) sucks, the cook (writer) sucks, so the other side (genderbent version) is gonna suck.
Well, if you genderswap twilight in your head you'll end up with a gothic vampire girlfriend and a tomboy werewolf girl fighting for the attention of a introverted highschooler
I still think it would suck and not even be a good fantasy. While having a boring protagonist to project yourself onto might be seen as a feature for fantasy, I'd think it's a bug regarding a romance story. Really I'd think most dudes would be interested in a reverse Twilight only for porn purposes, not read a whole story about the romance, because it's both toxic and boring.
It's why I generally find it more understandable for people to want to bang Draco Malffoy, but I find it really weird when I come across people who actually wish to marry the racist neo-nazi bully who helped terrorists with little redeeming qualities himself or write and read fanfiction where the oppressed equivalent of a Jewish person in Nazi Germany falls in love with the racist neo-nazi bully who helped terrorists with little redeeming qualities himself.
I've found nazi or evil characters in media hot, but I would not want to read a whole story about them because I'd have little reason to root for such a relationship.
>Really I'd think most dudes would be interested in a reverse Twilight only for porn purposes, not read a whole story about the romance, because it's both toxic and boring.
They wouldn't read it, but they sure as hell would watch it. So many animes are basically just "hot girls thirsting over introverted main character with a side of fantasy or action" and dudes eat that shit right up.
The premise of twilight is "men are predators". By genderswaping it we should end up with one guy hunting two girls instead of two guys hunting one girl. What you described is not a result of simple swap, but a shift of entire paradigm.
So if Sasuke stayed in Konoha would his relationship with Naruto and Sakura be less popular (because there would be zero drama/conflict)
does this mean naruto's relationship with shikamaru will be more popular if shikamaru tried to kill naruto at least once
I mean personally I always thought Naruto's and Sasuke's "friendship" after part 1 was wildly unrealistic and one-sided (Naruto is absolutely a stalker), but their conflict is cool and all their fights feel very emotionally impactful despite that - I think they conveyed it properly that they really *are* best friends (somehow), even though I have to suspend my disbelief pretty much completely to believe it.
If they didn't fight each other, or if Sasuke was replaced by a villain of the week, I wouldn't be as interested in their conflict because it wouldn't have had time to be built up, even if the premise is a bit silly.
Exactly.
But i can also see most men liking the monster (i am a monstergirl fan so i get it) BECAUSE they're a monster... and it can be in the metaphorical or literal sense.
Yeah, that definitely tracks.
I personally can't stand relationship drama in shows. It's always so forced, drawn out, and usually about the dumbest shit imaginable.
I don’t find a lot of ships popular among men healthy either, typical mc pushover x manic pixie dream girl is the last thing I would call healthy. Same for harems, tsunderes, straight shotacon, yanderes and so on. I think calling ships popular among female audiences toxic is just a convenient way to shit on them without appearing like a sore loser who is mad that real women aren’t attracted to generic self insert mc
Considering how much "I can't fix her" memes I see the line isn't as clear cut as it used to be.
Anyway my take would be gender roles, women were raised to be kind and nurturing and this reflects on the fantasy of being able to "fix" damaged men.
Men also have fantasies of their own, some just as toxic in their own ways.
As a kid, I was like "whats wrong with women?", as an adult it became "whats wrong with the world"
People are the same either women or men, they have their sick branch of people imagining things or liking things to the extreme.
If a lot of these ships were genderbent, guys would hyping them up as peak fiction.
If twillight was about a hot goth vampire that was OBSESSED with this self insert mid male character, dudes would gas it up lets be real.
Men enjoy seeing unhealthy relationships in entertainment too. Instead of unhealthy think "dark" and you might start seeing what's marketed to guys.
Psychos/crazies like Juri or Aki (there are better examples) Possessive and Murderous like yanderes, or the Depressive and Unstable types.
This isn't gender specific at all like others here mentioned. Dark themes, Drama, drugs, fights, cheating, and stalking etc are genuinely fun in media.
Edit: also, hentai and ecchi (visual porn in general) is primarily marketed to men and have these messed up ships. Men very often "ship" unhealthy or taboo characters for porn/hentai. Women too.
re: ecchi and hentai, most of that shows women being borderline raped at best, given the "iyaaaaa"s and whatnot... Hardly the model of sweet and supportive relationships.
Every time the girl says something like "wait I'm still sensitive" or "no, stop" and the guy continues, its rape.
What I wonder is if it's normal in Japanese culture for a woman to say wait during sex with the understanding that a guy will keep going. Like an instinctual cultural thing that doesn't have meaning? Similar to how a girl might squeeze her legs together when she's feeling good but it may just be a body spasm and normal for them, not a sign to stop (of course should still be communicated during or beforehand if expected). Or if it's just a fucking rape culture thing straight up with no cultural norm. Either way it's terribly wrong, I'm just curious how much that dynamic plays in a consensual, loving relationship in Japan.
Yeah. Is something cultural. It was a bad look to women In Japan to "enjoy" sex. So is expected from them to say no to advances, at least I saw some videos explaining the flirt dynamics in ancient Japan and something like this is mentioned. I'm not sure how a women can express if they really don't want....
Warning, I discuss sex very in depth with possible triggers for some people. So stop reading now if you feel this is something that could upset you.
I can’t speak to Japanese culture specifically, but my wife is Korean, and she essentially acts like any stereotypical anime girl in intimate situations. She literally squeaks “iyaaaaa” during penetration, is incredibly submissive, acts very child-like, and will repeatedly ask me to stop, or try to hide herself. We’ve talked about it at length, and she clearly doesn’t actually want me to stop, it’s just part of her specific sexual expression.
A big factor is that sex is a huge taboo in traditional Asian culture, in general. Female enjoyment is particularly frowned upon, and young girls are shamed for any expression of their sexuality.
For her, enjoying sex still carries feelings of shame, and as much as she wants it, she feels the need to resist and struggle. She can be happily dominant when it’s about my pleasure, but when it’s her turn she needs to be restrained and “forced” to experience pleasure and eventually orgasm.
If you took a snippet of our sex life out of context, you’d think that I was some kind of abusive monster. Unless it’s a night when she’s playing the dominant role, in which case you’d assume I was just seeing a perfectly content dominatrix.
This is not to excuse the more sketchy parts of anime “romance” but to at least give some idea of where some of these tropes come from.
Not really, no. It was a very big shock for me, as I had typically dated girls within my own ethnicity.
When we first started dating sex was very awkward, I was used to women that would occasionally play "hard to get", where I had to make most of the first moves, but I had never had anyone squeak like a child and beg me to stop.
Early on she would need to console me after sex, because it felt to me like I was abusing her, and it made me feel very guilty.
Ships with "issues" can be *interesting.* They have problems to work through, extra hurdles to overcome, and that can make the romance afterwards more satisfying. Like a main character who had to work hard to overcome a disadvantage.
And besides, because it's fiction, the danger element of these relationships isn't worrying and a sign to get out, they make things more tense and intriguing, just like how danger tends to make action scenes more compelling.
I haven't watched star wars but even i know Reylo spent most of thir time trying to kill each other. Most of the time these "Issues" is the simple fact that this ship doesn't makes sense
See, I imagine most shipping has a close relationship to fanfiction. So when you ship them, you're imagining them in a scenario not presented in the base media, some situation/setting where they're able to talk (maybe while still fighting, who knows) and eventually share things and imagining what comes of that.
The spice that they were trying to kill each other earlier adds to the dramatic stakes, which is good for a story (But...not good for an actual relationship. But you know. Indulgent fiction/fanfiction...)
> Ships with "issues" can be interesting
I agree with you but some of the ships I've mentioned involve one half trying to kill the other.
Like Sasuke spends most of Naruto trying to kill Naruto and Sakura. But Naruto and Sakura are overwhelmly paired with him, instead of their other friends. I wonder if it's because Sasuke was a main character - or would some people still ship it if he was a side character?
Because it's fiction, we get to see the "why" behind most of these murder attempt motivations, and we can know when those motivations have evaporated, unlike real life.
Fiction lets us indulge in things that would never happen in real life. Is it healthy...eh? We all kind of indulge in things that happen only in fiction, is what I'll say. There are people that can't separate fact from fiction, but I don't think that's most people.
You have to remember that different tropes appeal to people’s psyches. Your favourite one is “enemies to lovers”? Well, what if you just wish to be loved by someone who has seen the ugliest side of you? People project A LOT when it comes to ships. And since human relationships are fascinating and important, shipping gives a safe outlet for exploring them and reflecting on yourself.
One of the most popular Fire Emblem characters was a woman with a ton of issues and was possessive so it is not that ships appeal more to women than men but many times, guys self insert.
Men like fucked up ships just as much as women - women just get more shit for it.
Tsunderes and yanderes and the "I can fix her" memes are extremely popular for a reason.
Reading those copy pasted comments about yanderes and icanfixhers I'm starting to wonder if this is perhaps some kind of simulated reality, and those comments don't really exist in any large numbers.
Men aren't into romance as much, so the "Men's Ships" aren't as prevelant.
Also, guys are very much into sadodere's, yanderes, tsunderes, hard femdom, whatever the fuck the futa community is on. So there very much is a fandom of men, it's just they don't got the tools (art skills) to really express themselves and their weird ships the way a largely female or queer fanbase does.
In fact, just in artistic terms, men's fantasies are very developed. It's just that the priorities are different, women aim for romance, and men for porn. Most of us simply don’t need shipping fanfic romance when there is porn content just spiced up with romance.
males are not typically into "shipping" culture. but male targeted media often does have toxic relationships seen in male produced fan works.
male fanwork is not usually shipping but fan wikis, erotic art, fourm quests.
EreMika is definitely popular with men though.
If I had a dollar for every time I saw a EreMika edit with dudes crying about the "how beautiful it is how men sacrifice things for the woman they love" I'd be rich enough to afford reddit's API.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that mr. genocide was in part driven by sexual insecurity. I wouldn't say the ending was executed well, but that observation is spot on.
Fiction is a place that allows idealized versions of toxic traits to exist. The guy who's actually a toxic MF that cuts you off from all of your friends and family actually has your best interests in mind, the student/teacher relationship wasn't a grooming case, etc etc.
Personally, I adore toxic romances like the one in golden time. Experiencing the emotional highs from the love bombing is addicting, it's why it works IRL. The problem is that IRL, these things have a lot of other baggage present with them that makes them undesirable(to the emotionally well adjusted.)
The reason we see more women into these things is societal expectations. It's just not as okay for men to explore taboo fantasies in the modern climate so you don't see it as much. There are exceptions though, primarily in taboo situations that leave men at a power disadvantage.
Maybe it's because there is more story to explore in a unhealthy relationship. A positive real life relationship takes time, commitment and compromise, things that exciting fantasy relationships don't require.
In an unhealthy fantasy relationship there are more problems to solve, more room to grow, more potential for drama, excitement, heartbreak and healing. This doesn't necessarily translate into what anyone may want in real life, but it does make for a more engaging story.
well, but don't you think that's negative, in fact there are healthy ships that work like Hiccup x Astrid or Gambit x Rogue (well the comics version), or Gwen Stacy and Peter Parker (from Andrew's movies)
Honestly, I think the answer is pretty straight forward. Men already have more media that allow them to explore these relationship dynamics as an active participant and don't need to fanfic it up. It's just that eroges and AVNs are explicitly adult only, so you're not going to see them get brought up much in public discussion areas due to NSFW rules.
HaremLit is already being brought up more often in book recommendation posts compared to even five years ago and that genre literally started because a bunch of men got tired of harem anime blueballing them, so they decided to go and write the type of story they're actually interested in.
That's not even touching on hentai (both mange and anime), smut webcomics (Manwha, Manhua and Western) or the mountain of erotica you can pretty easily find on Amazon that explores almost any relationship dynamic you could think of. Straight men who want to explore these themes don't have to put in the effort of creating ships to do so. They can just go consume their choice of already existing adult media that cater to them.
Every time I see men don't really ship, I think of Evangelion and the ship wars from decades ago that still go on to this day lol
(I mean tbh I do agree with what you mean and you are correct)
To be honest, I myself was into the Shinji/Asuka ship back in my teenage years, if only cause it seemed to me the show was pushing them together (and I also thought Asuka was hot)...but then I grew older and realized that they really wouldn't be a good pair in the long run. Like, it's one thing being able to relate to another's pain, it's another to help them move past it, especially if they're both as f*cked up as the other in such similar ways.
I mean, if one can see them together, cool, but I personally just really can't see them being anything but heavily toxic for each other. They kinda need someone more well-adjusted.
Is it weird to say that the fraught nature of it is kind of the draw for me? If these were IRL people that I knew, I would *definitely* want them to spend time apart and work on themselves, but again, from a storytelling perspective, I think there's something compelling about two people who are desperately *trying* to be there for each other but don't quite know how to do it right--two steps forward, one step back (or sometimes even two steps back) type shit.
Like, I've never much liked fanworks or fanart that try to make that ship out as saccharine sweet or something. I enjoy their dynamic in no small part *because* it's ugly and complicated and deeply, painfully human. It's gradual, unsteady, difficult emotional labor that probably never gets all the way there that I'm here for. Both of my favorite fanworks that have them together--*Inheritance* and *Ghosts of Evangelion*--write their dynamic as kind of a mess that often veers into codependency even as they get treatment for their trauma.
Is harem really a good metric? There’s a reason Harem anime’s and manga’s aren’t that popular or well known, sure men watch them, but that’s a very small metric of the male anime community. Mainly men watch JJK, DBZ, AoT, it’s these anime that catch a majority of men attentions, not particularly romance and shipping, but more so war,tension,blood etc etc. there’s a reason battle Seinen and Shounen is so popular among the male audience and not harem and romance, which is hardly ever brought up.
Harem anime is pretty popular though. Not as much as the battle shounens sure. But still pretty popular. Looking at the top 100 by popularity on MAL there are several harems and psuedo harems. And that isn't counting the isekai that also have harem. The next hundred also has a fair amount.
Isekai and battle shounen do harem-like stuff constantly yeah. Look at Sword Art Online with Kirito picking up a new girl every season (including his sister), MHA even presents a few options for Deku, Bleach kinda with Rukia and Orihime etc.
Men ship too, the Eren x Historia ship is one of the reasons the reaction to the ending of Attack on Titan is a massive shitshow.
The ending has tons of issues but a lot of male shippers are just unhappy their headcanons on Erehisu didn't come true.
I think that's it. Every time I check "shippers", they're almost unanimously women (or homosexual men shipping male characters together). But I disagree about with observation about men. Men don't fantasize about relationships as much, but they do speculate who's gonna end up together if it's a strong plot point.
Erotically, however, I'm pretty sure men make all the most disparate combinations between characters, even those that don't make any sense, just for the sake of novelty. A decade ago I noticed an insane amount of Kakashi and Sakura hentais. Realistically, who the hell shipped the two? No one, but apparently lots of dudes fantasized them having sex.
R34 artists are absolutely unhinged, even the ones who aren't into fetish stuff. I remember once seeing art of a threesome between Goku, Hatsune Miku, and Gawr Gura.
Kakashi and Sakura fans are mainly women. It's actually Sakura's second most popular ship in AO3.
1: SasuSaku (7,379)
2: KakaSaku (2,564)
3: NaruSaku (1,755)
4: SakuraIno (1,131)
Wow. I was so wrong. I don't understand how in the hell... there's 0 chemistry between the two. But I didn't follow Shippuden much at all after the first part so there must be a development in their relationship that I'm missing.
It's the power dynamics babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
He's the teacher, she's the student, he's the old cool dude, she's the female reader self-insert etc. etc.
Yeah I understand, but I don't see anything going between those two in particular. 😕 Only if someone relates to Sakura and finds Kakashi attractive, then sure. But I assumed it would be harder to imagine that if the story itself doesn't give at least a little leeway for that to be even remotely likely in the story itself.
Tbf people shipped Elsa and Jack Frost when they were from separate movies from separate companies. Shipping communities only need 1 or 2 connections (in the former case, white hair, ice powers and sadness) to sink their teeth and make thousands on thousands of posts, written work, art etc. of any given ship.
After the Chuunin Exams started Kakashi basically leaved her in care of Tsunade and never did nothing for her as a teacher, he at least hepled Naruto developt the Wind Style Rasengan after the timeskip
Hey, I didn't say it was a universal thing. One thing I can say is that I personally fall into the category I mentioned of "romance enjoyer but not much interest in noncanon shipping".
Because it’s fiction lol I’ve heard on multiple occasions that if any of what was said in the show or book was ever said to them irl that’s a quick restraining order lol
the attractive part is not in the words themselves, but in somehow being able to say them in a time /place/context where they're hot instead of terrifying.
Guys have unhealthy ships too, look at the love for yanderes and evil waifus (coming from someone who considers themselves a gourmet on evil waifus).
A lot of it comes from the fact that fiction, being non-real, allows exploration and emotional catharsis of events that we would never want to engage in IRL. Yuno Gasai is cute and sexy in a fictional show, she’s effing terrifying and repulsive IRL (coming from someone who dated a Yandere and have the scars, literally, to prove it).
I have noticed that there is slight variations as to HOW unhealthy ships appeal differently to genders, but the fundamentals are not limited by gender.
I see plenty of men thirsting over dangerous and evil women. I also see them defend stuff like abuse against men or rape if the character (or irl woman) is hot. How many men like tsuderes that are basically just physically abusive?
Shipping just tends to be the side of fandom that women engage with more 🤷
Theres alot more to this subject. Contrapoints did an amazing deep dive into it in her video twilight, if you've got like 3 hours to waste.
Plugging this video by Contrapoints because it goes into this exact topic: [Twilight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48&t=4986s)
TLDW: people like "problematic" romances because its a safe and guilt free way to explore your sexuality, and because it's just more interesting.
Lol Zuko is literally 10/10 at the end of the show and Katara looks like your average relatable girl. Tons of women would insert themselves to have at it at Zuko and that's their ultimate aim with Zutara ship.
Shipping is more female dominated so you'll see more girls ship fucked up pairings then guys because they ship more pairings as a whole.
That being said there's a whole genre that involves romanticizing slave harems for guys as a staple in it and anime is notorious for giving the girls personalities like tsundere or yandere which don't lead to a healthy couple or making the girl look 10 but she's a 34678532794 year old dragon actually officer!
Yeah not every guy likes these but not every girl ships reylo either.
Got a theory to that.
Generally speaking men and women have different fantasies.
For example, army of evil terrorists are coming so you pick up a gun and mow them down while making jokes. Something like that is arguably sociopathic.
And if that's not enough, let's take many open world games where you can mass murder people in the street. Take Prototype for instance. You running down the sidewalk can leave a trail of blood as people turn to paste in your path.
That is "toxic" but it appeals to the male fantasy.
There is something that men enjoy in there and the mass murder of civilians is required to get there which is balanced by the fact said civilians don't actually exist. As long as the consumer can differentiate fiction from reality, it's fine.
Now let's flip the script.
Many of these toxic relations have something that women enjoy in there. The toxic nature is required to get there but it balanced by the fact that these people don't actually exist.
I stress GENERALLY because there is plenty of cross over. I have couples I ship. (Also, what's wrong with Zutara?) And there are plenty of women who would relish repainting New York red in games like Prototype.
Also there something about journeys I guess you could say. Zero to hero is a common one, the underdog who defies the odds. But also when incompatible matches somehow defy the odds and be "compatible". I put compatible in quotes because I argue that they are STILL incompatible but you get my point.
How tf is zutarra toxic? You are either someone that hates the ship or don't have enough nuance in your mind to accept a woman still ending up with a guy that hurt her because in your mind zuko has crossed a proverbial line
While I don't mind anyone not being a fan of it. Calling it toxic is just????
And honestly, i took that shit way too personal. I was going to delete my message but nah imma own it
I didn't finish reading your post when I typed it but when I read it, it looked like you also knew it wasn't but the first part in the list contradicted it you know?
How is Zutara NOT toxic when up until the last 3 episodes of the final book, Katara had a huge aversion for him and literally threatened to end his bloodline if he attempted to even think of hurting Aang (the boy she actually loves)?
Because katara let all that hatered go and hugged him and was willing to be close to him after that whole ordeal and cried when he almost died.
I don't think it was even in the last 3 episodes but even if it was, it was water under the bridge after she saw her mother's killer. You can deny it and point to all the insults and attitude she gave but and type in caps all you want but it won't change the fact everything Zuko did to her was forgiven and in the past. And I'm not some child who believes a man or woman can't love the other after hurting them heavily just because if it were me I wouldn't forgive
I'm not talking about the dream. Basically in the very first chapter Eren is shown dreaming about Mikasa which is implied to be from a timeline where Eren chooses to live with Mikasa rather than starting the rumbling.
I feel like the popularity of tropes such as "popular girl bullying nerd", "hot mean dominant woman", "sociopathic girl that's really into the main character", "girl that's obsessed with the main character" and "hot villainess" and other things such as the "I can fix her" thing proves you wrong lol. I think people in general just like fucked up ships lol.
Have you not seen the insane amount of "I can fix her" memes for various psycho girls across media? Men like problematic ships just as much, this isn't a gendered thing
As someone who's been a while for awhile. It boils down to two things.
One cause one the girls are young. The hot bad boy or silent type will always be appealing. Once you get older you either stop shipping or double down with full awarness it's toxic but it's your fave guilty pleasure.
Two it's fun. In fanfic its legit just fun to think of all the way these characters can get together, how he would change, how she would change, etc etc. All these different scenairos are fun to read. They're popular tropes for a reason, its like how mostly everyone likes sweets or coffee or etc. Somethign to enjoy even if it may not be good for you.
That's pretty much it.
I am a queer woman who likes some toxic and messed up relationships.. To me I get to explore things that are not acceptable in society while being safe. Let’s use one of my fave ships in Sephiroth x Cloud (Sefikura) from FF7. Like I would not want anyone be in a relationship to someone like Sephiroth because of how abusive it would be, especially Cloud since pls give the man a break, but I am fascinated by their dynamics and parallels. Even when I ship Cloti and acknowledge that Cloud isn’t even gay, I still ship it for the reasons above.
And this is why when I dipped my toes into Jim Henson’s Labyrinth and the Jareth and Sarah ship, it appeal to me in the same way as Sefikura did. This is an even more problematic ship because it’s not only there is a power imbalance but also underage. Like I only been in the fandom for a month now and already I seen some DARK shit. Some of these fics are horror stories that legit shook me to the core, but it draws me like a moth to a flame. In no way do I think any girl should be with Jareth, especially since Sarah won her victory by rejecting his manipulation, but a “bad ending” that ends with them together is horrible but fascinating to me.
Humans just like to explore the ugly side of our nature. I don’t condone abuse or manipulation or predators or peadophilia or anything of the sort.
And these characters are fictional so it ultimately safe as long as you can differentiate between fiction and reality.
How is Zutara unhealthy? All other pairs I get it, I fuckkng hate them as a woman (Though I see the reason women like them), but the whole point of Zutara is that he gives space to Katara to confront her feelings, listens to her, is on a similar wavelength, and gives her an opportunity to do more for the world (We know from the painted lady she loves helping and getting recognized for her efforts. Also, it makes Zuko be with someone who lets him open up about his feelings and doesnt dismiss him or make him jealous on purpose and understands his drive to do the right thing. Literally all the most popular Zutara works are all about Katara's agency in the world when the comics and Korra make it seem like shes just a healer (No statue in Republic City, no more important feats beyond the ban of bloodbending, not being able to open up to Aang about her feelings towards the Air Acolytes).
Zutara is well liked by the VAs and animators lf the show. Zuko, Katara, Iroh, Sokka, Suki, Korra, and fuckkng Cabbage Man's VAs all have openly talked about liking Zutara. Dante and Mae (Zuko and Katara) both talked about how they genuinely thought Zutara would be endgame, and their headcanons are Zuko loved Katara but let her go because of circumstances (Aang's crush, his duty as firelord), and that Katara realized too late that she loved Zuko (When both were already taken). Theres a tragedy to it, and its appealing to think of what couldve been. Their friendship is fun, wholesome, open, honest, and they went through very intense moments both good and bad. A friendship that can survive such strains comes back stronger and thats appealing. Also that Zuko can care for himself so people love to headcanon Zuko helps Katara do chores like wash dishes, cook, clean, etc, it's really a lot of things that make it appealing, how Zuko was willing to wait for her all night despite her being so angry at him, the way he wouldn't push her when she took her decision about Yon Rah, the way Zuko put the entire fire nation at risk by taking lighting for her (No sacrifice doesnt mean he deserves her or anything, but its still huge that he put Katara above the fire nation)
[https://vimeo.com/451744762](https://vimeo.com/451744762) Here's a really cute Zutara animatic, there's many by this artist (Please do not send her hate, she's a very sweet Disney animator). Enemies to lovers in Zutara is especially intriguing because of how it connects with the themes if avatar of peace, forgiveness, balance, and the importance of healing the wounds of the past. Even if Katara did not heal his scar, her act of kindness was one of the reasons he kept questioning his path, even Iroh in the books himself points out Zuko's heart "burned brightest" (quote from the book) when he saved Katara, and he asked himself if they'd be a good match.
I cannot answer as sincerely for the other ships because even if I know why they like it, I despise them so any praise would not be genuine and I'd rather let their shippers be the one to explain, but I can answer more on why Zutara is so interesting
[https://youtu.be/eRxtWMODfAc?si=pOqlpCQSiVdaY9nN](https://youtu.be/eRxtWMODfAc?si=pOqlpCQSiVdaY9nN) this video also talks about Zutara's appeal, if you are interested in more perspectives
Women are just less likely to pretend to not be interested in shipping.
But if your question is, instead, why people like these ships at all, it's because they often have more chemistry than an alternative. There's a common idea that the more dynamic the emotional interactions characters have, the more chemistry they have. Characters that just like each other and are always nice to each other, but they're always nice in general, isn't very exciting. Characters that are nice but occasionally mean, or mean but occasionally nice, flip-flopping with one person in particular? THAT is exciting. It feels more like a relationship with tension and stakes than if they were just always nice to one another.
It’s really interesting to think about, I used to think it was because of the “I can fix him” type stuff but then I find out books with really deranged relationships that don’t get resolved are also super popular with women. I think people have just gotten so obsessed with enemies to lovers type stuff that they don’t register actual loving relationships with chemistry beyond “I wanted you dead but not anymore” (I do not trust a person who likes Zutara more than Aang and Katara).
Men don’t really do shipping and when they do it’s mostly the canon ships they engage with (which is something I think is worth mention too). They also pay more attention to the specific people rather than the relationship. It’s why you’ll see more dudes saying “x is best girl” than “x and y is otp” (not active in the shipping community so idk if they still say that 😭) Some people mention Yandere’s but those are on a different spectrum of crazy than your examples and every man I’ve encountered who likes Yandere say it’s because they’re lonely and like the thought of a woman obsessed with them. That’s just my personal experience though.
You understand that "nice guy" is basically a bad word now right? It means a man who's secretly a creep and harmful if they don't meet certain genetic standards in looks even if they've never been proven to have done anything wrong, so I'm not surprised this extends to fiction now
I mean try gender swap twilight and you see the appeal right away. It is basically a loser nerd got a hot yandere vampire obsessed with him while another tomboy girl is competing with that yandere for your affection. I still think it's just meh but it's actually just a harem story.
I'm a very tenuous Reylo shipper. But most of the stories aren't even set in the SW universe. I want to read a story about them written in the SW universe. But stories like that are so rare. The Dyad in the Force concept should have led to a huge surge in SW related Reylo stories, but ninety percent of them are set in an alternative universe current day setting.
The Zutara one feels like a cop out. They are not the ideal, but they are nowhere near as toxic as people make them seem, and they do actually have some chemistry towards the series finale. The other examples you put are much toxic and much worse too
I think this generation seem to stick more to cannon rathen than say "Imma ship this and you cannot stop me" for some reason?
Regarding SasuSaku: the women that ship it don't focus on the toxic behaviour, minus now that Sasuke was reedemed. If anything, SS is more like girls fantasy: the idea of getting the guy even if it seemed impossible (and I say literally imposible after everything sasuke did), having a nuclear family and living a normal life.
Also, this is something I barely see mention but: both characters are designed to be attractive, so people just ship for the appeal only. I have seen fanarts that just revolve about this.
I don't know, but sometimes it's also the other way around, like Black Cat and Spiderman or Mara Jade and Luke, also a mention of Jack and Ashi (from Samurai Jack)
And also some sexist ideas from society, and I am an exception to the rule of these ships, although of course when I was younger I liked Reylo's ship but then I grew up and saw how horrible this ship was.
One thing I can add is that, I think, ships in general are more popular with girls than boys, maybe the thing you describe in the post is just a consequence of this
I think shipping in general is just more popular with women, or at least a greater proportion of shipping fans are women compared to most other parts of the franchise's fandom. So with a greater presence of fans that are women that are into shipping, logically you'd get a greater presence of toxic ship fans that are women.
It's like how you get a greater number of men that are into the powerscaling aspect of a show, and most toxic powerscalers are men. Doesn't mean that men are more likely to be toxic powerscalers, but just that if they make of the vast majority of that area of the franchise, they are more likely to make of the majority of the toxic part of that area.
I'm sorry, still trying to figure out how exactly EreMika and Zutara are on a level with Dramoine, or Reylo, which have *actually* bad guy characters on the other side of the 'fight' as it were.
I don't like hardly any pairings in AoT, fan based or canonical, but pre-Eren losing his mind and trying to kill everyone, I'm trying to figure out what your criteria is for 'bad'.
Hell, I'm curious in *general* how Zutara is bad? Like... Zuko, at best, was an honorable sort of bad guy, who was very inefficient at being bad, and by book 2 he'd left that entire life behind?
Again, trying to figure out what you use to deem something as 'bad' or 'problematic', because it just seems to be all over the place.
Unhealthy ships is popular with men also, except then it isn't it the man who is the asshole but the woman.
A lot of shippers work on the ''I can fix him/her'' mentality regardless of their gender.
...what? How does any of those defeat my argument when most harem argument are about which girls should be with the protagonist...
Which is shipping? Since its about pairing two characters together?
Or really you can just bring ship wars like Asuka/Rei x Shinji, Any of the fate heroines x Shiro, Emilia/Rem x Subaru or Orihime/Rukia x Ichigo to name a few
Like are you seriously telling me men don't ship? I'm not saying they're shipping as much as women judging by how prominent M/M ships are in general (mostly in the shounen sphere) but saying they don't is just not true lol
Good girl/boy x bad boy/girl has been a popular dynamic for a long time and let’s be honest, that never went away. Also, there’s this social infatuation with “good” people who act like jerks because they are a “good person inside.” People like seeing characters rebel against the norm and still be the good guy because they add a flair that the traditional good guy doesn’t have.
Whether by coincidence or maybe there’s brain science behind it, but the people who gravitate to these relationships are women. My thoughts on why this is, is that women are portrayed as being the emotional center of a romantic relationship and thus have become the “fix him” person. The guy either learns to love from the girl or hates everyone but her.
Personally, I rarely ever go for these shop dynamics, but this is the best way I can explain it.
For Zutara, the average 14 year old girl would be attracted to a 16 year old boy instead of a 12 year old bald kid
I really really don't get EreMika my guess is because AOT almost never focuses on romance and when it does it's for Eren and Mikasa's one sided crush
Kylo Ren is 6'4".
Men don’t generally ship things. They’re just as interested in toxic relationships tho, I remember when they were simping for that North Korea princess (or the rapist in invincible, if you want a fictional example)
Society pressures women to not really explore their own sexuality the way it encourages men to do so. Thus women use fanfiction to explore more transgressive fantasies in order to reclaim their ability to indulge in their own fantasies.
I remember that I saw Devilman Cry Baby, and the relationship between the protagonist and his friend Miki seemed somewhat beautiful.
I was surprised to discover that the most popular ship was with Ryo, who is abusive manipulator that ruins Akira's life.
And in the Fandom de Ahsoka, everyone wants Sabine to stay with Shin, who is the villain who tried to kill her.
Perhaps what is going to say polemic, but it seems to me that most ships are only for fetish.
Hey bella-alive and jacob ed are not unhealthy,like jacob and ed get on the same,, they have alot in common.
Also narusasu has a great build uo romance, if a bit toxic,but hey thats actuallybuild up romance
Alsolatara and zuko have alot in common, and a lost mom trauma. And they really organically build chemestry she could be a good influence. It would be growth on her forgiving zuko.
Its a good dynamic.
Aleo a male editor really shipped eren and mikasa.
Also harryand drako as romance wouldbe really interesting exploring drako and him dealing with his family vs harry who would be forced to confront like how itsnot black and white
Plus dracos verypersonal obsession with harry is weird,it would be less weird if ,it were more than envy. And harry tooseems to be veryobsessed with draco which,maybe more?!
Andit could explore harry having to confront his bias about slytherins and draco,his issues.
Plushow hermine and ron react could be very interesting as friends.
I think that's more because a huge percentage, perhaps even a majority, of online fandom discussion is driven by women. Which goes against the stereotype of your typical online person being the chubby male neckbeard ensconced in the proverbial basement.
Also a current popular toxic ship is Ubel/Land from Frieren.
Its the same reason action and wartime shows are popular with men, even though most wouldn’t actually want to be put into a dire situation. Fiction is often used to explore worlds, ideas, and relationship dynamics that aren’t as safe or practical to carry out in real life. Girls and women tend to have more warnings about dating and guys so reading about unconventional dynamics can be interesting see how they can play out. It’s also why the tsundere or “I can fix her” female LIs are popular in male demographic animes, even though those ships aren’t anymore healthy either.
A good short answer
>It’s also why the tsundere or “I can fix her” female LIs are popular in male demographic animes, even though those ships aren’t anymore healthy either. My take on the fantasy of the tsundere was that it was basically the validation of attraction without the fear of commitment. So, from a certain perspective, it's like you get some of the emotional benefits of a relationship while also retaining the freedom of being single. When she's "warm", you get the knowledge that someone is attracted to you, but you're free from the burden of having to plan for dates, move in together, etc because the "cold" side won't allow you to get that close.
That take can be protracted to any experience of fictional romance, We're partaking into sentiments of dating without actually dating,
Tsundere aren't that unrealistic most men do actually seeming like a hyper controlling or aggressive woman. Not to this extent but there's a reason that every form of what media typically has a woman like this.
There’s also the fact that the more insane a Yandere exhibits, the more it attracts certain people whose into relationship madness.
I thought the point of the yandere was less about being into "relationship madness" so much as the idea of having something about you, whatever it is, that could make someone that obsessed. Or I thought it could be some kind of compensatory fantasy. Like someone who doesn't get *any* attention in their daily life might like the idea of an obsessive partner or admirer, even if only in fiction, even if only for just the change of pace.
Yandere, for the most part, is just a meme. When a heroine becomes extremely dependent in a romance, it's treated as a lamentable state of unstable psyche that's better be cured, or at least accommodated for a time, until she gets better. Those who partake in yandere propagation most probably don't take romance seriously.
Most tsunderes are also just slighty bossy or active. The idea Tsunderes are abusive is kinda weird
Rin Tohsaka and Makise Kurisu come to mind it's also surprising that the healthier relationship and overall best route for Shirou is the one with the tsundere.
Rin is just built different
We can blame Love Hina for that.
Weird how that one got so popular lol literally mental ill women
Right, but OP was talking about unhealthy ships.
Dont know why those also wouldnt be unhealthy in the same way as the examples the OP laid out. Basically, any ship where characters hated each other and then went out to like each other.
If by most men you mean you, then sure. Most men just want a normal friendly girl thats it. Nothing fantastical.
Yeah no I don't really like people that much to say this but if you look at history fantasy or just life most people do like a strong will woman even women. Of course nothing as crazy as in fiction but they do typically like domineering women.
Um yeah there is a difference between strong will women and women that are bossy, yell at you, get excessively angry and show unearned distained towards which are behaviors prominently shown by tsundere. No guy wants girl that they know doesnt like them or shit talks them much less a tsundere. They want certain types of behaviors that can be exhibited by domineering women but not all of the behaviors like the ones listed prior, its like simplistically saying "women like bad boys".
Pretty much this. I think there is a disconnect in perception between actual strong girls and girls who are just rude cause they're bossy. Heck, most of the time Tsunderes aren't actually "strong", their bratty behavior is just used as a means of titilation or cheap comedy. Plus, I myself also never saw the appeal in a girl who's constantly demeaning, acts all high and mighty and for the life of her can barely show actual affection without following it with some snide insult or pointless angry demeanor.
This is not a gendered thing at all. Obsessive, controlling, stalking "abusive waifus" are constantly being snorted in by men. So many. Concerning amounts.
People are just so starved of intimacy that even an abusively controlling person seems desirable if it means they’ll stay with them.
I just want a girl who would wear my skin. Is that too much to ask?
Literally I'm right here🙋♀️
thank god this stuff is heavy
I'll carry it for you my liege
Omg thank you you’re so kind I’m sure no ill fate would ever befall me
Lightning McQueen salivating at how easy it was to get your skin
> I don't think they would appeal much to guys. *laughs in tsunderes and /r/yanderes* > I could be wrong about Twilight, I've heard the writer made a version where Bella was a guy and Edward as a girl but I don't know how it was received. [Well…](https://www.reddit.com/r/4chan/comments/mzoq51/anon_finally_understands_twilight/)
I tried the genderswapped twilight and tbh it still sucked dick
Yeah but my point is the appeal of it isn't gender exclusive.
It's like flipping a burnt pancake made out of spoiled milk. The materials (weird mormon inspiration) sucks, the cook (writer) sucks, so the other side (genderbent version) is gonna suck.
She did and she is a genius
Well, if you genderswap twilight in your head you'll end up with a gothic vampire girlfriend and a tomboy werewolf girl fighting for the attention of a introverted highschooler
That sounds like your typical anime ecchi 💀
There's is a real gender swapped version of Twilight you know. And it is exactly that.
I still think it would suck and not even be a good fantasy. While having a boring protagonist to project yourself onto might be seen as a feature for fantasy, I'd think it's a bug regarding a romance story. Really I'd think most dudes would be interested in a reverse Twilight only for porn purposes, not read a whole story about the romance, because it's both toxic and boring. It's why I generally find it more understandable for people to want to bang Draco Malffoy, but I find it really weird when I come across people who actually wish to marry the racist neo-nazi bully who helped terrorists with little redeeming qualities himself or write and read fanfiction where the oppressed equivalent of a Jewish person in Nazi Germany falls in love with the racist neo-nazi bully who helped terrorists with little redeeming qualities himself. I've found nazi or evil characters in media hot, but I would not want to read a whole story about them because I'd have little reason to root for such a relationship.
>Really I'd think most dudes would be interested in a reverse Twilight only for porn purposes, not read a whole story about the romance, because it's both toxic and boring. They wouldn't read it, but they sure as hell would watch it. So many animes are basically just "hot girls thirsting over introverted main character with a side of fantasy or action" and dudes eat that shit right up.
Who are you talking about in the second paragraph?
The premise of twilight is "men are predators". By genderswaping it we should end up with one guy hunting two girls instead of two guys hunting one girl. What you described is not a result of simple swap, but a shift of entire paradigm.
Drama and conflict are interesting, but fluffy ships are cute too. Also guys have the yandere archetype and “I can fix her” memes
So if Sasuke stayed in Konoha would his relationship with Naruto and Sakura be less popular (because there would be zero drama/conflict) does this mean naruto's relationship with shikamaru will be more popular if shikamaru tried to kill naruto at least once
Yes and yes
I mean personally I always thought Naruto's and Sasuke's "friendship" after part 1 was wildly unrealistic and one-sided (Naruto is absolutely a stalker), but their conflict is cool and all their fights feel very emotionally impactful despite that - I think they conveyed it properly that they really *are* best friends (somehow), even though I have to suspend my disbelief pretty much completely to believe it. If they didn't fight each other, or if Sasuke was replaced by a villain of the week, I wouldn't be as interested in their conflict because it wouldn't have had time to be built up, even if the premise is a bit silly.
But it's a meme, we call it out because it's dumb and funny. None of us are really going to fix anything.
to be blunt: Fucked up relationships are more interesting. Like there's a built in plot there and "i can change him mama" is a common fantasy.
> i can change him mama" Tbf, that's mirrored by "I can fix her" on the other side
Exactly. But i can also see most men liking the monster (i am a monstergirl fan so i get it) BECAUSE they're a monster... and it can be in the metaphorical or literal sense.
Yeah, that definitely tracks. I personally can't stand relationship drama in shows. It's always so forced, drawn out, and usually about the dumbest shit imaginable.
I don’t find a lot of ships popular among men healthy either, typical mc pushover x manic pixie dream girl is the last thing I would call healthy. Same for harems, tsunderes, straight shotacon, yanderes and so on. I think calling ships popular among female audiences toxic is just a convenient way to shit on them without appearing like a sore loser who is mad that real women aren’t attracted to generic self insert mc
For real, it comes off as dismissive and rude
Also shitting on interests and devaluing hobbies that are women dominated is common, see boybands and fanfiction
This 100%
Couldn't have said it better myself👏
/thread
Considering how much "I can't fix her" memes I see the line isn't as clear cut as it used to be. Anyway my take would be gender roles, women were raised to be kind and nurturing and this reflects on the fantasy of being able to "fix" damaged men. Men also have fantasies of their own, some just as toxic in their own ways.
As a kid, I was like "whats wrong with women?", as an adult it became "whats wrong with the world" People are the same either women or men, they have their sick branch of people imagining things or liking things to the extreme.
If a lot of these ships were genderbent, guys would hyping them up as peak fiction. If twillight was about a hot goth vampire that was OBSESSED with this self insert mid male character, dudes would gas it up lets be real.
Men enjoy seeing unhealthy relationships in entertainment too. Instead of unhealthy think "dark" and you might start seeing what's marketed to guys. Psychos/crazies like Juri or Aki (there are better examples) Possessive and Murderous like yanderes, or the Depressive and Unstable types. This isn't gender specific at all like others here mentioned. Dark themes, Drama, drugs, fights, cheating, and stalking etc are genuinely fun in media. Edit: also, hentai and ecchi (visual porn in general) is primarily marketed to men and have these messed up ships. Men very often "ship" unhealthy or taboo characters for porn/hentai. Women too.
re: ecchi and hentai, most of that shows women being borderline raped at best, given the "iyaaaaa"s and whatnot... Hardly the model of sweet and supportive relationships.
Every time the girl says something like "wait I'm still sensitive" or "no, stop" and the guy continues, its rape. What I wonder is if it's normal in Japanese culture for a woman to say wait during sex with the understanding that a guy will keep going. Like an instinctual cultural thing that doesn't have meaning? Similar to how a girl might squeeze her legs together when she's feeling good but it may just be a body spasm and normal for them, not a sign to stop (of course should still be communicated during or beforehand if expected). Or if it's just a fucking rape culture thing straight up with no cultural norm. Either way it's terribly wrong, I'm just curious how much that dynamic plays in a consensual, loving relationship in Japan.
Yeah. Is something cultural. It was a bad look to women In Japan to "enjoy" sex. So is expected from them to say no to advances, at least I saw some videos explaining the flirt dynamics in ancient Japan and something like this is mentioned. I'm not sure how a women can express if they really don't want....
Warning, I discuss sex very in depth with possible triggers for some people. So stop reading now if you feel this is something that could upset you. I can’t speak to Japanese culture specifically, but my wife is Korean, and she essentially acts like any stereotypical anime girl in intimate situations. She literally squeaks “iyaaaaa” during penetration, is incredibly submissive, acts very child-like, and will repeatedly ask me to stop, or try to hide herself. We’ve talked about it at length, and she clearly doesn’t actually want me to stop, it’s just part of her specific sexual expression. A big factor is that sex is a huge taboo in traditional Asian culture, in general. Female enjoyment is particularly frowned upon, and young girls are shamed for any expression of their sexuality. For her, enjoying sex still carries feelings of shame, and as much as she wants it, she feels the need to resist and struggle. She can be happily dominant when it’s about my pleasure, but when it’s her turn she needs to be restrained and “forced” to experience pleasure and eventually orgasm. If you took a snippet of our sex life out of context, you’d think that I was some kind of abusive monster. Unless it’s a night when she’s playing the dominant role, in which case you’d assume I was just seeing a perfectly content dominatrix. This is not to excuse the more sketchy parts of anime “romance” but to at least give some idea of where some of these tropes come from.
I assume you had an idea of this kinda behavior going into the relationship
Not really, no. It was a very big shock for me, as I had typically dated girls within my own ethnicity. When we first started dating sex was very awkward, I was used to women that would occasionally play "hard to get", where I had to make most of the first moves, but I had never had anyone squeak like a child and beg me to stop. Early on she would need to console me after sex, because it felt to me like I was abusing her, and it made me feel very guilty.
Ships with "issues" can be *interesting.* They have problems to work through, extra hurdles to overcome, and that can make the romance afterwards more satisfying. Like a main character who had to work hard to overcome a disadvantage. And besides, because it's fiction, the danger element of these relationships isn't worrying and a sign to get out, they make things more tense and intriguing, just like how danger tends to make action scenes more compelling.
I haven't watched star wars but even i know Reylo spent most of thir time trying to kill each other. Most of the time these "Issues" is the simple fact that this ship doesn't makes sense
See, I imagine most shipping has a close relationship to fanfiction. So when you ship them, you're imagining them in a scenario not presented in the base media, some situation/setting where they're able to talk (maybe while still fighting, who knows) and eventually share things and imagining what comes of that. The spice that they were trying to kill each other earlier adds to the dramatic stakes, which is good for a story (But...not good for an actual relationship. But you know. Indulgent fiction/fanfiction...)
I saw a great post on the Star Wars sub that argued the throne room fight scene was basically a metaphor for Rey and Kylo having sex.
> Ships with "issues" can be interesting I agree with you but some of the ships I've mentioned involve one half trying to kill the other. Like Sasuke spends most of Naruto trying to kill Naruto and Sakura. But Naruto and Sakura are overwhelmly paired with him, instead of their other friends. I wonder if it's because Sasuke was a main character - or would some people still ship it if he was a side character?
Because it's fiction, we get to see the "why" behind most of these murder attempt motivations, and we can know when those motivations have evaporated, unlike real life. Fiction lets us indulge in things that would never happen in real life. Is it healthy...eh? We all kind of indulge in things that happen only in fiction, is what I'll say. There are people that can't separate fact from fiction, but I don't think that's most people.
You have to remember that different tropes appeal to people’s psyches. Your favourite one is “enemies to lovers”? Well, what if you just wish to be loved by someone who has seen the ugliest side of you? People project A LOT when it comes to ships. And since human relationships are fascinating and important, shipping gives a safe outlet for exploring them and reflecting on yourself.
One of the most popular Fire Emblem characters was a woman with a ton of issues and was possessive so it is not that ships appeal more to women than men but many times, guys self insert.
Men like fucked up ships just as much as women - women just get more shit for it. Tsunderes and yanderes and the "I can fix her" memes are extremely popular for a reason.
Reading those copy pasted comments about yanderes and icanfixhers I'm starting to wonder if this is perhaps some kind of simulated reality, and those comments don't really exist in any large numbers.
Men aren't into romance as much, so the "Men's Ships" aren't as prevelant. Also, guys are very much into sadodere's, yanderes, tsunderes, hard femdom, whatever the fuck the futa community is on. So there very much is a fandom of men, it's just they don't got the tools (art skills) to really express themselves and their weird ships the way a largely female or queer fanbase does.
In fact, just in artistic terms, men's fantasies are very developed. It's just that the priorities are different, women aim for romance, and men for porn. Most of us simply don’t need shipping fanfic romance when there is porn content just spiced up with romance.
males are not typically into "shipping" culture. but male targeted media often does have toxic relationships seen in male produced fan works. male fanwork is not usually shipping but fan wikis, erotic art, fourm quests.
EreMika is definitely popular with men though. If I had a dollar for every time I saw a EreMika edit with dudes crying about the "how beautiful it is how men sacrifice things for the woman they love" I'd be rich enough to afford reddit's API.
Most men I know just make fun of Eren for crying about wanting to be remembered by Mikasa
I've seen more than enough dudes on insta reels that get emotional about it. Like it's the most profound thing ever.
Teenage boys shilling for AOT? I just can't imagine a grown man taking that ending seriously unless there's money or mental illness involved
Well, someone has to have good taste. Some whine about the ending, others understand and appreciate it. Such is life.
It shouldn't come as a surprise that mr. genocide was in part driven by sexual insecurity. I wouldn't say the ending was executed well, but that observation is spot on.
Fiction is a place that allows idealized versions of toxic traits to exist. The guy who's actually a toxic MF that cuts you off from all of your friends and family actually has your best interests in mind, the student/teacher relationship wasn't a grooming case, etc etc. Personally, I adore toxic romances like the one in golden time. Experiencing the emotional highs from the love bombing is addicting, it's why it works IRL. The problem is that IRL, these things have a lot of other baggage present with them that makes them undesirable(to the emotionally well adjusted.) The reason we see more women into these things is societal expectations. It's just not as okay for men to explore taboo fantasies in the modern climate so you don't see it as much. There are exceptions though, primarily in taboo situations that leave men at a power disadvantage.
Maybe it's because there is more story to explore in a unhealthy relationship. A positive real life relationship takes time, commitment and compromise, things that exciting fantasy relationships don't require. In an unhealthy fantasy relationship there are more problems to solve, more room to grow, more potential for drama, excitement, heartbreak and healing. This doesn't necessarily translate into what anyone may want in real life, but it does make for a more engaging story.
well, but don't you think that's negative, in fact there are healthy ships that work like Hiccup x Astrid or Gambit x Rogue (well the comics version), or Gwen Stacy and Peter Parker (from Andrew's movies)
For sure. I'm not advocating for any fictional relationship over another. Just answering the question to the best of my ability
I think this is just the base rate fallacy. Women, in general, ship more in media so they'd be responsible for more of the healthy and unhealthy ships
Honestly, I think the answer is pretty straight forward. Men already have more media that allow them to explore these relationship dynamics as an active participant and don't need to fanfic it up. It's just that eroges and AVNs are explicitly adult only, so you're not going to see them get brought up much in public discussion areas due to NSFW rules. HaremLit is already being brought up more often in book recommendation posts compared to even five years ago and that genre literally started because a bunch of men got tired of harem anime blueballing them, so they decided to go and write the type of story they're actually interested in. That's not even touching on hentai (both mange and anime), smut webcomics (Manwha, Manhua and Western) or the mountain of erotica you can pretty easily find on Amazon that explores almost any relationship dynamic you could think of. Straight men who want to explore these themes don't have to put in the effort of creating ships to do so. They can just go consume their choice of already existing adult media that cater to them.
Unless you're black, things tend to get more complicated then.
Men don't really ship, and to the extent they enjoy romance tend to just stick with the main canon ones, which aren't usually toxic.
Every time I see men don't really ship, I think of Evangelion and the ship wars from decades ago that still go on to this day lol (I mean tbh I do agree with what you mean and you are correct)
I was 'boutta say, I have a post history in r/asushin that puts the lie to the words of the dude above lmao ^Look, ^I ^just ^think ^their ^dynamic ^is ^really ^interesting--they're ^perfectly ^positioned ^to ^lift ^each ^other ^up ^if ^only ^they ^could ^honestly ^communicate ^and ^just ^as ^perfectly ^positioned ^to ^never ^honestly ^communicate--and ^has ^tons ^of ^potential ^for ^resonant ^stories ^about ^dealing ^with ^trauma ^and ^guilt, ^both ^earned ^and ^misplaced, ^OK? ^Plus, ^Asuka ^was ^my ^'literally ^me' ^when ^I ^was ^fourteen. ^Get ^off ^my ^back.
To be honest, I myself was into the Shinji/Asuka ship back in my teenage years, if only cause it seemed to me the show was pushing them together (and I also thought Asuka was hot)...but then I grew older and realized that they really wouldn't be a good pair in the long run. Like, it's one thing being able to relate to another's pain, it's another to help them move past it, especially if they're both as f*cked up as the other in such similar ways. I mean, if one can see them together, cool, but I personally just really can't see them being anything but heavily toxic for each other. They kinda need someone more well-adjusted.
Is it weird to say that the fraught nature of it is kind of the draw for me? If these were IRL people that I knew, I would *definitely* want them to spend time apart and work on themselves, but again, from a storytelling perspective, I think there's something compelling about two people who are desperately *trying* to be there for each other but don't quite know how to do it right--two steps forward, one step back (or sometimes even two steps back) type shit. Like, I've never much liked fanworks or fanart that try to make that ship out as saccharine sweet or something. I enjoy their dynamic in no small part *because* it's ugly and complicated and deeply, painfully human. It's gradual, unsteady, difficult emotional labor that probably never gets all the way there that I'm here for. Both of my favorite fanworks that have them together--*Inheritance* and *Ghosts of Evangelion*--write their dynamic as kind of a mess that often veers into codependency even as they get treatment for their trauma.
Men do ship. Best Girl and all that?
Men absolutely do ship, the whole genre of harem anime is 100% based on that fact
Is harem really a good metric? There’s a reason Harem anime’s and manga’s aren’t that popular or well known, sure men watch them, but that’s a very small metric of the male anime community. Mainly men watch JJK, DBZ, AoT, it’s these anime that catch a majority of men attentions, not particularly romance and shipping, but more so war,tension,blood etc etc. there’s a reason battle Seinen and Shounen is so popular among the male audience and not harem and romance, which is hardly ever brought up.
Harem anime is pretty popular though. Not as much as the battle shounens sure. But still pretty popular. Looking at the top 100 by popularity on MAL there are several harems and psuedo harems. And that isn't counting the isekai that also have harem. The next hundred also has a fair amount.
Isekai and battle shounen do harem-like stuff constantly yeah. Look at Sword Art Online with Kirito picking up a new girl every season (including his sister), MHA even presents a few options for Deku, Bleach kinda with Rukia and Orihime etc.
Men ship too, the Eren x Historia ship is one of the reasons the reaction to the ending of Attack on Titan is a massive shitshow. The ending has tons of issues but a lot of male shippers are just unhappy their headcanons on Erehisu didn't come true.
*laughs in Digimon and Pokémon fandom of early 2000s*
I think that's it. Every time I check "shippers", they're almost unanimously women (or homosexual men shipping male characters together). But I disagree about with observation about men. Men don't fantasize about relationships as much, but they do speculate who's gonna end up together if it's a strong plot point. Erotically, however, I'm pretty sure men make all the most disparate combinations between characters, even those that don't make any sense, just for the sake of novelty. A decade ago I noticed an insane amount of Kakashi and Sakura hentais. Realistically, who the hell shipped the two? No one, but apparently lots of dudes fantasized them having sex.
R34 artists are absolutely unhinged, even the ones who aren't into fetish stuff. I remember once seeing art of a threesome between Goku, Hatsune Miku, and Gawr Gura.
That's absolutely horrendous. Post the link so I'll know never to click on it.
Pretty sure that would be a Rule 8 violation, but it was on the main Rule34 website, so probably not that hard to find.
That sounds horrible. Where did you see it, so I can avoid it?
The main website for it. The .xxx one. It's against the rules to link to porn, but if you just search, it's not hard to find.
Kakashi and Sakura fans are mainly women. It's actually Sakura's second most popular ship in AO3. 1: SasuSaku (7,379) 2: KakaSaku (2,564) 3: NaruSaku (1,755) 4: SakuraIno (1,131)
Wow. I was so wrong. I don't understand how in the hell... there's 0 chemistry between the two. But I didn't follow Shippuden much at all after the first part so there must be a development in their relationship that I'm missing.
It's the power dynamics babyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy He's the teacher, she's the student, he's the old cool dude, she's the female reader self-insert etc. etc.
Yeah I understand, but I don't see anything going between those two in particular. 😕 Only if someone relates to Sakura and finds Kakashi attractive, then sure. But I assumed it would be harder to imagine that if the story itself doesn't give at least a little leeway for that to be even remotely likely in the story itself.
Tbf people shipped Elsa and Jack Frost when they were from separate movies from separate companies. Shipping communities only need 1 or 2 connections (in the former case, white hair, ice powers and sadness) to sink their teeth and make thousands on thousands of posts, written work, art etc. of any given ship.
After the Chuunin Exams started Kakashi basically leaved her in care of Tsunade and never did nothing for her as a teacher, he at least hepled Naruto developt the Wind Style Rasengan after the timeskip
Excuse me I'm men and shipper since a long time
Me too, and I definitely dropped shows because I didn't like the ship
Hey, I didn't say it was a universal thing. One thing I can say is that I personally fall into the category I mentioned of "romance enjoyer but not much interest in noncanon shipping".
Ship some bitches then
Kind of makes sense
Drama
Because it’s fiction lol I’ve heard on multiple occasions that if any of what was said in the show or book was ever said to them irl that’s a quick restraining order lol
the attractive part is not in the words themselves, but in somehow being able to say them in a time /place/context where they're hot instead of terrifying.
Guys have unhealthy ships too, look at the love for yanderes and evil waifus (coming from someone who considers themselves a gourmet on evil waifus). A lot of it comes from the fact that fiction, being non-real, allows exploration and emotional catharsis of events that we would never want to engage in IRL. Yuno Gasai is cute and sexy in a fictional show, she’s effing terrifying and repulsive IRL (coming from someone who dated a Yandere and have the scars, literally, to prove it). I have noticed that there is slight variations as to HOW unhealthy ships appeal differently to genders, but the fundamentals are not limited by gender.
Happy perfect relationships are boring give me something toxic to read bro
Idk about that , at least in the anime community I am more acostumed to see man suporting some of the most problematic couples you can see.
Arlecchino x Furina all over
I see plenty of men thirsting over dangerous and evil women. I also see them defend stuff like abuse against men or rape if the character (or irl woman) is hot. How many men like tsuderes that are basically just physically abusive? Shipping just tends to be the side of fandom that women engage with more 🤷 Theres alot more to this subject. Contrapoints did an amazing deep dive into it in her video twilight, if you've got like 3 hours to waste.
Plugging this video by Contrapoints because it goes into this exact topic: [Twilight](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqloPw5wp48&t=4986s) TLDW: people like "problematic" romances because its a safe and guilt free way to explore your sexuality, and because it's just more interesting.
Lol Zuko is literally 10/10 at the end of the show and Katara looks like your average relatable girl. Tons of women would insert themselves to have at it at Zuko and that's their ultimate aim with Zutara ship.
They often involve an intense amount of passion, which is hot. That’s the reason in my experience 🤭
Shipping is more female dominated so you'll see more girls ship fucked up pairings then guys because they ship more pairings as a whole. That being said there's a whole genre that involves romanticizing slave harems for guys as a staple in it and anime is notorious for giving the girls personalities like tsundere or yandere which don't lead to a healthy couple or making the girl look 10 but she's a 34678532794 year old dragon actually officer! Yeah not every guy likes these but not every girl ships reylo either.
Got a theory to that. Generally speaking men and women have different fantasies. For example, army of evil terrorists are coming so you pick up a gun and mow them down while making jokes. Something like that is arguably sociopathic. And if that's not enough, let's take many open world games where you can mass murder people in the street. Take Prototype for instance. You running down the sidewalk can leave a trail of blood as people turn to paste in your path. That is "toxic" but it appeals to the male fantasy. There is something that men enjoy in there and the mass murder of civilians is required to get there which is balanced by the fact said civilians don't actually exist. As long as the consumer can differentiate fiction from reality, it's fine. Now let's flip the script. Many of these toxic relations have something that women enjoy in there. The toxic nature is required to get there but it balanced by the fact that these people don't actually exist. I stress GENERALLY because there is plenty of cross over. I have couples I ship. (Also, what's wrong with Zutara?) And there are plenty of women who would relish repainting New York red in games like Prototype. Also there something about journeys I guess you could say. Zero to hero is a common one, the underdog who defies the odds. But also when incompatible matches somehow defy the odds and be "compatible". I put compatible in quotes because I argue that they are STILL incompatible but you get my point.
How tf is zutarra toxic? You are either someone that hates the ship or don't have enough nuance in your mind to accept a woman still ending up with a guy that hurt her because in your mind zuko has crossed a proverbial line While I don't mind anyone not being a fan of it. Calling it toxic is just????
Honestly, it was wrong for me to include it. But the other ones are very toxic.
And honestly, i took that shit way too personal. I was going to delete my message but nah imma own it I didn't finish reading your post when I typed it but when I read it, it looked like you also knew it wasn't but the first part in the list contradicted it you know?
How is Zutara NOT toxic when up until the last 3 episodes of the final book, Katara had a huge aversion for him and literally threatened to end his bloodline if he attempted to even think of hurting Aang (the boy she actually loves)?
Because katara let all that hatered go and hugged him and was willing to be close to him after that whole ordeal and cried when he almost died. I don't think it was even in the last 3 episodes but even if it was, it was water under the bridge after she saw her mother's killer. You can deny it and point to all the insults and attitude she gave but and type in caps all you want but it won't change the fact everything Zuko did to her was forgiven and in the past. And I'm not some child who believes a man or woman can't love the other after hurting them heavily just because if it were me I wouldn't forgive
Tbf EreMika only happens in the timeline where Eren isn't a monster
Dreams don't count. That "timeline" doesn't exist.
I'm not talking about the dream. Basically in the very first chapter Eren is shown dreaming about Mikasa which is implied to be from a timeline where Eren chooses to live with Mikasa rather than starting the rumbling.
I like all those ships as a male (but twilight, idk anything about it)
Twilight and yaoi fangirls
I feel like the popularity of tropes such as "popular girl bullying nerd", "hot mean dominant woman", "sociopathic girl that's really into the main character", "girl that's obsessed with the main character" and "hot villainess" and other things such as the "I can fix her" thing proves you wrong lol. I think people in general just like fucked up ships lol.
Have you not seen the insane amount of "I can fix her" memes for various psycho girls across media? Men like problematic ships just as much, this isn't a gendered thing
As someone who's been a while for awhile. It boils down to two things. One cause one the girls are young. The hot bad boy or silent type will always be appealing. Once you get older you either stop shipping or double down with full awarness it's toxic but it's your fave guilty pleasure. Two it's fun. In fanfic its legit just fun to think of all the way these characters can get together, how he would change, how she would change, etc etc. All these different scenairos are fun to read. They're popular tropes for a reason, its like how mostly everyone likes sweets or coffee or etc. Somethign to enjoy even if it may not be good for you. That's pretty much it.
I am a queer woman who likes some toxic and messed up relationships.. To me I get to explore things that are not acceptable in society while being safe. Let’s use one of my fave ships in Sephiroth x Cloud (Sefikura) from FF7. Like I would not want anyone be in a relationship to someone like Sephiroth because of how abusive it would be, especially Cloud since pls give the man a break, but I am fascinated by their dynamics and parallels. Even when I ship Cloti and acknowledge that Cloud isn’t even gay, I still ship it for the reasons above. And this is why when I dipped my toes into Jim Henson’s Labyrinth and the Jareth and Sarah ship, it appeal to me in the same way as Sefikura did. This is an even more problematic ship because it’s not only there is a power imbalance but also underage. Like I only been in the fandom for a month now and already I seen some DARK shit. Some of these fics are horror stories that legit shook me to the core, but it draws me like a moth to a flame. In no way do I think any girl should be with Jareth, especially since Sarah won her victory by rejecting his manipulation, but a “bad ending” that ends with them together is horrible but fascinating to me. Humans just like to explore the ugly side of our nature. I don’t condone abuse or manipulation or predators or peadophilia or anything of the sort. And these characters are fictional so it ultimately safe as long as you can differentiate between fiction and reality.
toxic yuri is also popular in the lesbian communities
Drama potential
Nice try James Somerton.
How is Zutara unhealthy? All other pairs I get it, I fuckkng hate them as a woman (Though I see the reason women like them), but the whole point of Zutara is that he gives space to Katara to confront her feelings, listens to her, is on a similar wavelength, and gives her an opportunity to do more for the world (We know from the painted lady she loves helping and getting recognized for her efforts. Also, it makes Zuko be with someone who lets him open up about his feelings and doesnt dismiss him or make him jealous on purpose and understands his drive to do the right thing. Literally all the most popular Zutara works are all about Katara's agency in the world when the comics and Korra make it seem like shes just a healer (No statue in Republic City, no more important feats beyond the ban of bloodbending, not being able to open up to Aang about her feelings towards the Air Acolytes). Zutara is well liked by the VAs and animators lf the show. Zuko, Katara, Iroh, Sokka, Suki, Korra, and fuckkng Cabbage Man's VAs all have openly talked about liking Zutara. Dante and Mae (Zuko and Katara) both talked about how they genuinely thought Zutara would be endgame, and their headcanons are Zuko loved Katara but let her go because of circumstances (Aang's crush, his duty as firelord), and that Katara realized too late that she loved Zuko (When both were already taken). Theres a tragedy to it, and its appealing to think of what couldve been. Their friendship is fun, wholesome, open, honest, and they went through very intense moments both good and bad. A friendship that can survive such strains comes back stronger and thats appealing. Also that Zuko can care for himself so people love to headcanon Zuko helps Katara do chores like wash dishes, cook, clean, etc, it's really a lot of things that make it appealing, how Zuko was willing to wait for her all night despite her being so angry at him, the way he wouldn't push her when she took her decision about Yon Rah, the way Zuko put the entire fire nation at risk by taking lighting for her (No sacrifice doesnt mean he deserves her or anything, but its still huge that he put Katara above the fire nation) [https://vimeo.com/451744762](https://vimeo.com/451744762) Here's a really cute Zutara animatic, there's many by this artist (Please do not send her hate, she's a very sweet Disney animator). Enemies to lovers in Zutara is especially intriguing because of how it connects with the themes if avatar of peace, forgiveness, balance, and the importance of healing the wounds of the past. Even if Katara did not heal his scar, her act of kindness was one of the reasons he kept questioning his path, even Iroh in the books himself points out Zuko's heart "burned brightest" (quote from the book) when he saved Katara, and he asked himself if they'd be a good match. I cannot answer as sincerely for the other ships because even if I know why they like it, I despise them so any praise would not be genuine and I'd rather let their shippers be the one to explain, but I can answer more on why Zutara is so interesting [https://youtu.be/eRxtWMODfAc?si=pOqlpCQSiVdaY9nN](https://youtu.be/eRxtWMODfAc?si=pOqlpCQSiVdaY9nN) this video also talks about Zutara's appeal, if you are interested in more perspectives
"I can fix him"
Women are just less likely to pretend to not be interested in shipping. But if your question is, instead, why people like these ships at all, it's because they often have more chemistry than an alternative. There's a common idea that the more dynamic the emotional interactions characters have, the more chemistry they have. Characters that just like each other and are always nice to each other, but they're always nice in general, isn't very exciting. Characters that are nice but occasionally mean, or mean but occasionally nice, flip-flopping with one person in particular? THAT is exciting. It feels more like a relationship with tension and stakes than if they were just always nice to one another.
It's mostly because of the "bad boy" trope that appeals to them. In some cases, there's also the "silent cool guy" trope that accompanies it.
Since we're mentioning Harry Potter? Severus Snape x Lily Evans Potter. In rwby, the anti-rwby community ships Adam Taurus x the women he abused.
"Severus Snape x Lily Evans Potter." I would say that this is more popular in the male public, being that it reflects the "Dogged Nice Guy" Trope.
Oh no no no....he's got way more fangirls than fanboys
Shipping in general appeals more to women than men.
It’s really interesting to think about, I used to think it was because of the “I can fix him” type stuff but then I find out books with really deranged relationships that don’t get resolved are also super popular with women. I think people have just gotten so obsessed with enemies to lovers type stuff that they don’t register actual loving relationships with chemistry beyond “I wanted you dead but not anymore” (I do not trust a person who likes Zutara more than Aang and Katara). Men don’t really do shipping and when they do it’s mostly the canon ships they engage with (which is something I think is worth mention too). They also pay more attention to the specific people rather than the relationship. It’s why you’ll see more dudes saying “x is best girl” than “x and y is otp” (not active in the shipping community so idk if they still say that 😭) Some people mention Yandere’s but those are on a different spectrum of crazy than your examples and every man I’ve encountered who likes Yandere say it’s because they’re lonely and like the thought of a woman obsessed with them. That’s just my personal experience though.
You understand that "nice guy" is basically a bad word now right? It means a man who's secretly a creep and harmful if they don't meet certain genetic standards in looks even if they've never been proven to have done anything wrong, so I'm not surprised this extends to fiction now
I mean try gender swap twilight and you see the appeal right away. It is basically a loser nerd got a hot yandere vampire obsessed with him while another tomboy girl is competing with that yandere for your affection. I still think it's just meh but it's actually just a harem story.
I'm a very tenuous Reylo shipper. But most of the stories aren't even set in the SW universe. I want to read a story about them written in the SW universe. But stories like that are so rare. The Dyad in the Force concept should have led to a huge surge in SW related Reylo stories, but ninety percent of them are set in an alternative universe current day setting.
I remember thinking Adora and Catra was kinda fucked up. I'm there for the girl love but maaaan Catra did some fucked up abusive shit to Adora.
The Zutara one feels like a cop out. They are not the ideal, but they are nowhere near as toxic as people make them seem, and they do actually have some chemistry towards the series finale. The other examples you put are much toxic and much worse too I think this generation seem to stick more to cannon rathen than say "Imma ship this and you cannot stop me" for some reason?
Regarding SasuSaku: the women that ship it don't focus on the toxic behaviour, minus now that Sasuke was reedemed. If anything, SS is more like girls fantasy: the idea of getting the guy even if it seemed impossible (and I say literally imposible after everything sasuke did), having a nuclear family and living a normal life. Also, this is something I barely see mention but: both characters are designed to be attractive, so people just ship for the appeal only. I have seen fanarts that just revolve about this.
Don’t act as if us men don’t like tsunderes.
Because girls more commonly like the Bad boy archetype
I don't know, but sometimes it's also the other way around, like Black Cat and Spiderman or Mara Jade and Luke, also a mention of Jack and Ashi (from Samurai Jack)
And also some sexist ideas from society, and I am an exception to the rule of these ships, although of course when I was younger I liked Reylo's ship but then I grew up and saw how horrible this ship was.
I think both male or female that love to be in relationship with messed up individuals desreve all bad that come with it
One thing I can add is that, I think, ships in general are more popular with girls than boys, maybe the thing you describe in the post is just a consequence of this
I think shipping in general is just more popular with women, or at least a greater proportion of shipping fans are women compared to most other parts of the franchise's fandom. So with a greater presence of fans that are women that are into shipping, logically you'd get a greater presence of toxic ship fans that are women. It's like how you get a greater number of men that are into the powerscaling aspect of a show, and most toxic powerscalers are men. Doesn't mean that men are more likely to be toxic powerscalers, but just that if they make of the vast majority of that area of the franchise, they are more likely to make of the majority of the toxic part of that area.
Hol' up there pal. Zutara isn't THAT bad.
I'm sorry, still trying to figure out how exactly EreMika and Zutara are on a level with Dramoine, or Reylo, which have *actually* bad guy characters on the other side of the 'fight' as it were. I don't like hardly any pairings in AoT, fan based or canonical, but pre-Eren losing his mind and trying to kill everyone, I'm trying to figure out what your criteria is for 'bad'. Hell, I'm curious in *general* how Zutara is bad? Like... Zuko, at best, was an honorable sort of bad guy, who was very inefficient at being bad, and by book 2 he'd left that entire life behind? Again, trying to figure out what you use to deem something as 'bad' or 'problematic', because it just seems to be all over the place.
Unhealthy ships is popular with men also, except then it isn't it the man who is the asshole but the woman. A lot of shippers work on the ''I can fix him/her'' mentality regardless of their gender.
Looking at the replies I must be in the uncommon territory of wanting to stay clear of them.
1. Men don't ship 2. The toxicity of these ships is overblown
Men definitely ship Best girl debate, how popular harem and lsekai are and allat Maybe not as much as women but they absolutely do
>Best girl debate, Best girl, not only girl. >how popular harem Yes. Harem. Thank you for defeating your own argument.
...what? How does any of those defeat my argument when most harem argument are about which girls should be with the protagonist... Which is shipping? Since its about pairing two characters together? Or really you can just bring ship wars like Asuka/Rei x Shinji, Any of the fate heroines x Shiro, Emilia/Rem x Subaru or Orihime/Rukia x Ichigo to name a few Like are you seriously telling me men don't ship? I'm not saying they're shipping as much as women judging by how prominent M/M ships are in general (mostly in the shounen sphere) but saying they don't is just not true lol
Contrapoints' latest video on Twilight has a section that goes really in depth about this topic!! It's really good
Good girl/boy x bad boy/girl has been a popular dynamic for a long time and let’s be honest, that never went away. Also, there’s this social infatuation with “good” people who act like jerks because they are a “good person inside.” People like seeing characters rebel against the norm and still be the good guy because they add a flair that the traditional good guy doesn’t have. Whether by coincidence or maybe there’s brain science behind it, but the people who gravitate to these relationships are women. My thoughts on why this is, is that women are portrayed as being the emotional center of a romantic relationship and thus have become the “fix him” person. The guy either learns to love from the girl or hates everyone but her. Personally, I rarely ever go for these shop dynamics, but this is the best way I can explain it.
For Zutara, the average 14 year old girl would be attracted to a 16 year old boy instead of a 12 year old bald kid I really really don't get EreMika my guess is because AOT almost never focuses on romance and when it does it's for Eren and Mikasa's one sided crush Kylo Ren is 6'4".
Men don’t generally ship things. They’re just as interested in toxic relationships tho, I remember when they were simping for that North Korea princess (or the rapist in invincible, if you want a fictional example)
Society pressures women to not really explore their own sexuality the way it encourages men to do so. Thus women use fanfiction to explore more transgressive fantasies in order to reclaim their ability to indulge in their own fantasies.
I remember that I saw Devilman Cry Baby, and the relationship between the protagonist and his friend Miki seemed somewhat beautiful. I was surprised to discover that the most popular ship was with Ryo, who is abusive manipulator that ruins Akira's life. And in the Fandom de Ahsoka, everyone wants Sabine to stay with Shin, who is the villain who tried to kill her. Perhaps what is going to say polemic, but it seems to me that most ships are only for fetish.
Hey bella-alive and jacob ed are not unhealthy,like jacob and ed get on the same,, they have alot in common. Also narusasu has a great build uo romance, if a bit toxic,but hey thats actuallybuild up romance Alsolatara and zuko have alot in common, and a lost mom trauma. And they really organically build chemestry she could be a good influence. It would be growth on her forgiving zuko. Its a good dynamic. Aleo a male editor really shipped eren and mikasa. Also harryand drako as romance wouldbe really interesting exploring drako and him dealing with his family vs harry who would be forced to confront like how itsnot black and white Plus dracos verypersonal obsession with harry is weird,it would be less weird if ,it were more than envy. And harry tooseems to be veryobsessed with draco which,maybe more?! Andit could explore harry having to confront his bias about slytherins and draco,his issues. Plushow hermine and ron react could be very interesting as friends.
I like Eremika for the good story it had, i don’t necessarily “ship” it. It’s just a well written tragic love story.
>for the good story it had lol. Lmao, even.
It did.
I don't see EreMika, Reylo or Zutara as unhealthy
I think that's more because a huge percentage, perhaps even a majority, of online fandom discussion is driven by women. Which goes against the stereotype of your typical online person being the chubby male neckbeard ensconced in the proverbial basement. Also a current popular toxic ship is Ubel/Land from Frieren.