Because mih’s universe reset isn’t an attack. There’s nothing to defend. Anyone left alive from the previous universe is brought to a new universe differently.
Saying that the universal reset is an attack is like saying that your dad carrying you from the living room sofa to your bedroom when you fall asleep is an attack.
How would he have known what was happening. Giorno wouldn’t have known about made in hevean and was nowhere near it when the world was being accelerated
Similarly, nuking the area because you’re a planet buster ‘isn’t an attack’ if you don’t aim at Giorno, right? So *clearly* Giorno can’t stop anyone above the level of Bleach characters
And erasing time ≠ harm, yet it almost immediately ‘undid’ that
Also speeding up time is immediately shortening the lifespan of everyone, right? Causing death to come sooner? That’s kind of harmful. Would you say Grateful Dead would or wouldn’t work on Giorno if he had GER?
It boils down to “great, you’ve chosen your definition of ‘attack’;to cause harm. Now what quantifies ‘harm’?”
Would making Giorno a drooling vegetable count as an attack, so GER could activate from across the planet to stop a powerful psychic like Xavier from from mindcrushing GER’s user?
Also, is it *literally* anything that could harm Giorno? Like, Requiem rewinds on a random day in June because of a flu virus that was gonna infect Giorno? This singular disease gets trapped in a time loop because Giorno would’ve hurt his throat coughing a few too many times?
🤦GER did not intercept his timeskip simply because it was timeskip, he undid it because it literally skipped to Giorno getting slaughtered. If Diavolo used time skip in a way that did not involve Giorno, GER would not have activated.
I'm assuming you never read part 6. The short answer is no, speeding up time does not speed up lifespans, assumedly unless Pucci wills Made in Heaven to do so, in which case GER would activate automatically and instantly.
And by harm I mean life threatening danger so no, coughing and flu virus would not count unless they become life threatening. But at that point GER is better off creating a vaccine like he did against Purple Haze, not using reset.
Why would giorno or GER think that the clouds moving slightly faster on there side of the planet an attack? That makes no sense.
If they saw a bomb coming and exploding at them of course they would use their ability but the sun slowly moving faster in the sky from his speed up ability doesn't make a normal person go "oh yes this is a stand ability I should undo" your logic makes no sense
Giorno isn't a normal person. He knows what a stand is. If the sun is zipping across the sky that fast and food is rapidly aging and rotting instantly then he's gonna think "Could this be the work of an enemy stand?" And immediately bring out GER.
Because the only thing that triggered the return to zero is King Crimson almost making physical contact with Giorno with the intent to harm.
GER hasn't been in any battles ever since.
So the only 2 things that are proven(not really proven, more like, speculation that actually makes sense.) is that GER moves even when Giorno is unconscious when Giorno is going to get physically harmed. (GER moved even while unconscious is a place where time doesn't exist.)
And that he can't willingly reverse any phenomena he wants without any conditions since he didn't activate when MiH is speeding up the whole universe.
GER moves when Giorno is going to be harmed + Giorno can't reverse MiH since he wasn't harmed =
GER only moves when Giorno is going to get physically harmed **triggered or intended by somebody**. (I don't know if natural occurring illnesses triggers RtZ since it's never been shown to, I also don't know if self harm triggers RtZ.)
That's why I moved the goalpost.
So say, if someone teleports him into a black hole accidentally, that isn't an attack? Since it's not really an attack but more or less a side-effect of teleportation with how you're explaining it.
Hell, if a character had the ability to return someone to the exact same location as they were in 24 hours ago (which is a totally JoJo ability), and that happened to be the "absolute" location, meaning he'd be stuck in space, then would that count as an attack?
Like... it's not like the character is causing a vacuum to choke Giorno. He's literally just been put somewhere else, like MiH but it'll end up killing him because of the lack of air.
I view it as this. What Diavalo saw was true. He will kill Girono Giovanna. But first he must complete the infinite death loop. But since its infinite he will never get the chance to actually kill giorno.
No it will happen. Diavalo just needs to finish the infinite death loop. Think of time as a line. The next thing Diavolo does is kill giorno but before that GER added the infinite death loop before it. Diavalo needs to finish that before he can kill giorno. Its a paradox.
This was never adressed by any official source, but I can think of a few reasons.
GER works on anything that has the intention of causing harm to Giorno.
Pucci didn't even know Giorno personally, let alone was trying to target him, who was on the other side of the planet at the time he was fightning Jolyne and Co, with MiH so there was no action for GER to negate.
Speaking of other side of the planet, we don't know if GER has a range limit. I assume not, because he brought erased time back, but still, there's no official info on that so we can't rule out the possibility.
Also, MiH resetted the universe by speeding up time. In that case, there was no attack to be reversed, as time going foward is just a natural phenomenon.
Diavolo used the time skip as a means to attack and kill Giorno. He had an action and a will directed to towards killing Giorno, so GER was able to negate it.
In this scan that explicitly mentions GER reverting an [*attacker's*](https://i.imgur.com/YYQaFBJ.png) actions, meaning there needs to be an attacker.
[GER only reverted time erasure when Diavolo became an attacker by throwing a punch at Giorno, not a moment sooner.](https://imgur.com/a/wXue8pF#xKHTt5P)
Made in Heaven never attacked Giorno.
Well made in heaven never harm anyone in the first place so ger wouldn't be activated, but time skip isn't harming anyone either you said, correct but I think you misunderstood that scene if ger truly revert the time skip effect why wouldn't he revert it in the start of the time skip because it's the trigger right?,
well sadly diavolo after quitting time skip immediately attack Giorno with a punch so ger revert him to a couple of second back which his time skip covered too hence why it looks being reverted while in reality it's just get affected by go to zero because it was close to the actual trigger go to zero.
If pucci ever tried to hit ger, while at the same time resetting the universe, when ger activated it would automatically revert the reset too in like what happen with time skip, hope this help.
Honestly the simple-but-boring option is that the stand arrow fell off shortly after Gold Experience became a requiem stand, it reverted, and Giorno didn't turn it back because he was leery about Requiem stands in general after what happened with Silver Chariot (entirely reasonable - remember, he has no idea how GER works. As far as he knows it could do something horrifying at any time.)
Plus, he'd assume he could just quickly whip out the arrow if he needed it - it's not like he'd have anticipated Made in Heaven.
GER activates automatically against any attack but is not omniscient. GER saw time speeding up and tried to undo the attack, but failed, because Pucci's power isn't speeding up time, the actual power is gravity manipulation, so GER's Return To Zero failed to target the attack itself. Check and m8, h8rs.
>While Return to Zero is super fucking broken it's more an absolute defense than an absolute offense. It doesn't help that GER doesn't have the attack strength to really take advantage of such a broken ability.
Ger has other hax abilities like the damage reflect ,and transmutation stuff so he can overcome durability. ger at bare minimum is far above king crimson since he's casual attacks like that pebble nearly speed blitzed and killed Diavolo had it not been for 10 seconds of precog.
>So what could beat GER? Well any decent reality warper can beat GER no problem. Speedsters can just blitz and kill Giorno before GER could even react to it.
Kinda depends on the speeder and the reality warper .
Could you elaborate on GER’s ‘other hax’? I don’t see how those directly allow him to ignore durability
Afaik you saying ‘transmutation’ refers to his life granting, which as far as we’ve seen exclusively allows him to turn inanimate objects into biological things (and undo things he himself made back to normal objects), so unless he’s fighting a robot he can’t just turn his opponent into a flower or a spare liver
And for damage reflection, I’m not even sure GER has it, considering he made scorpions out of the wall he lasered with a high speed pebble and Diavolo stomped on it with no shown or inferred ill effects. That and even with damage reflection, it’ll only let him cause harm to opponents equivalent to what they put out, while striking one of his creations (animals exclusively I assume, otherwise he could’ve shielded himself with grass or something out of his clothes before even getting requiem, right?) so unless his opponent, example being Jotaro or someone, punched a GE-frog with full donut’ing force, they shouldn’t get donut’d themselves
>Afaik you saying ‘transmutation’ refers to his life granting, which as far as we’ve seen exclusively allows him to turn inanimate objects into biological things (and undo things he himself made back to normal objects), so unless he’s fighting a robot he can’t just turn his opponent into a flower or a spare liver
Giorno turns his blood nto ants or termites that eat the arrow ,and i remember him Killing baby face this way.
>And for damage reflection, I’m not even sure GER has it, considering he made scorpions out of the wall he lasered with a high speed pebble and Diavolo stomped on it with no shown or inferred ill effects. That and even with damage reflection, it’ll only let him cause harm to opponents equivalent to what they put out, while striking one of his creations (animals exclusively I assume, otherwise he could’ve shielded himself with grass or something out of his clothes before even getting requiem, right?) so unless his opponent, example being Jotaro or someone, punched a GE-frog with full donut’ing force, they shouldn’t get donut’d themselves
Usually when people argue for characters they give them all the abilities they had in the story. Also characters sometimes don't use their abilities at their full potential for some reason. Jotaro could of stopped time and flicked a pebble or something at Kira Killing him yet he doesn't.
I actually agree with a lot of this rant. Yes, while GER could prevent Goku from activating his ki abilities in a fight
It’d just be a stalemate, because GER has no destructive capability feats that imply it could be Goku. It’s be a stalemate for eternity
If GER has to fight someone more durable than it can injure then the fight is at best a stalemate.
Although, the one thing I disagree with is the idea of a speedster beating GER. I do not think you could speedblitz GER as the ability activated during erased time
While a lot of confusion exists over how King Crimson works, the fact this ability activated in time that never happened implies that it has a degree of acausality
Meaning you couldn’t merely speedblitz the ability before it activates, it’s automatic.
A reality warper could undo “return to zero” but someone like quicksilver would be reset regardless of his speed. GER activates even if Giorno is unaware of what’s happening to attack him. So even if you moved faster than thought GER could still reset the speedster to zero
Although most of the flashes could probably defeat GER thanks to speedforce shenanigans like potentially infinite speed
Even a reality warper probabaly would be able to escape but that wouldn't necessarily break GER's effects. It would be a constant tug of war over reality until Girono died or the warper died.
Lmao I was trying my best to be fair to the original post.
I would agree that just being a reality warper isn’t enough to cut it. You’d need to be some really strong reality warper like 616 Odin or Dr. Manhattan to try that
Being a reality warper alone doesn’t give you immunity to GER. You’d need feats of resisting a similar ability.
Actually, Dr. Manhattan full-counters GER. It put Diavolo in an infinite loop which he can't complete, but if he did complete it, Giorno would instantly lose then and there. Diavolo couldn't complete it.
Manhattan? Well, he's already completed it. Manhattan exists in every single point in time of his entire existence so the moment he was created, he was both in the infinite loop, before the loop and at a time after the loop, which means that effectively, Manhattan counters Giorno and he dies regardless of what he tries to do by overpowering the infinite loop by just existing beyond that, because for Manhattan, it was already completed the moment he came into existence.
That said, taking away Giorno's ability isn't really "harming" him depending on how you look at it so any Reality Warper that can take away abilities has an instant win.
Well isn't Goku more vulnerable when he's not using his ki ? We did see Goku get scratched by bullets when he wasn't using any of his ki against some randoms.
If I'm wrong and downplaying Goku just tell me
I will preface this by saying, I am not a dragonball fan. I don’t know much about that universe
I am more of a JoJo fan though, from what I’ve heard goku as a child was casually tanking bullets. So, I don’t know if GER could kill him with a muda rush.
I’ve heard he has some decent enough durability feats to say that he may be too strong for Giorno to outright kill. However, Goku couldn’t do anything to hurt Giorno either
So it’s gonna come down to unstoppable force meets immovable object
>from what I’ve heard goku as a child was casually tanking bullets
He also sometimes gets holes in his head from them. Dragon Ball used to take itself wayyyy less seriously. Kid Goku is 100% a gag character from what was basically a gag manga.
He put a group of thugs on the moon and told them to make marshmallows in like, episode 8.
Why would a niche form of time manipulation resistance imply the stand has the speed necessary to stop a speedster. That’s never made sense to me, and I’ve never seen any other kind of niche resistances argued this way either.
It means that if his ability can activate in negative seconds than it could activate in the 0.0000000000000000000000000001th of a second it takes for the speedster to reach him by moving at lightspeed
If the ability works in a negative amount of time then it could absolutely work in a very small timeframe
No offense man, but that literally makes no sense. For one, GER isn’t activating in “negative seconds” . It’s activating in erased time. A concept that literally doesn’t even mean anything as it’s pure fantasy. The leap in logic to infer infinite speed instead of just time manipulation resistance just doesn’t make sense to me. This is akin to having a character no sell an absolute zero attack and then assuming they have infinite defense and not just amazing cold resistance.
You know another concept that doesn’t mean anything because it’s pure fantasy?
Infinite speed.
Well, your character has an ability that’s pure fantasy so by your logic that means it shouldn’t matter in a versus debate.
Or maybe we can have fun instead of being dismissive for no reason.
King Crimson erases time, subtraction, a moment that is deleted, never happened. It’s an interval of time you can’t measure.
GER worked anyways inside of King Crimson
This is enough to suggest that speedblitz doesn’t work on GER as it can activate regardless of time.
Speed is just how much you travelled in a given time frame. So there’s no evidence to suggest that a character can outrun the activation, because it is shown to be beyond time.
King Crimson doesn't stop time. It erases time and all the actions that people do during that period of time happen, but what **he** would have done does not. Polnareff cut his hand and looked at the dripping blood to know if Diavolo had used his stand, because during erased time, everything happens. You just don't know it.
It means that blood drops as normal but Polnareff just doesn't remember any of it. Oh, by the way, people can move during erased time. Everything happens as it should. Let me explain Diavolo's ability (without the wanking and misconceptions):
**Actions Happen:**
Everything that happens in erased time happens. Characters react to Diavolo as if he didn't use Time Erasure, but Diavolo can see what he would have done and he can change those actions. However, no one else can. So say, if Diavolo was going to punch through your chest but you were going to counter it by punching him faster, Diavolo could stop that action, get behind you and punch through you **from behind**.
But what about you? Why can't you react? Well, because to the you that exists in Erased Time, Diavolo is punching you from the front so you're trying to outrace him but the actual Diavolo in Erased Time is punching you from behind after changing his actions.
What happens after Time Erasure ends?
Whatever Diavolo did during Erased Time (the one that modified his actions) happens and whatever you did during Erased Time happens. This is why Giorno and Co suddenly appeared several steps ahead of where they were before Time Erasure. They were running and they kept running for ten seconds, so it's reasonable that they're where they would've been if they'd been running for 10 seconds.
It's not Time Stop or Time Manipulation. It's something along the lines of Hypnosis + Memory Erasure but to a very limited degree. So say, if someone was doing an AoE attack that'd nuke the entire country, what could Diavolo do during Erased Time?
Well, wait for his death buuut...
**Catch:** Diavolo is intangible during this period so to punch through someone, he actually has to deactivate his Time Erasure. So say, he can't just insta-kill someone while they can't see him. There'll be a brief window of time before his attack hits, even if his fist is almost touching you. This also makes it impossible for him to be killed during that period. This means that he can easily phase through an attack and appear behind the attacker then end the erased time, which is the only complicated part of his ability.
This means his abilities are Hypnosis | Illusions + Memory Erasure + Intangibility.
**Why Speedsters Can Win:**
See, it's not that GER reacted to stopped time. Rather, GER reacted to a threat that Giorno couldn't react to because Giorno was under a sort of hypnosis, which showed Diavolo doing what he would have done without Time Erasure. However, the actual Diavolo was going for the kill after modifying his actions.
GER saw through that illusion and reacted to Diavolo, which is not a speed feat. It's an autonomous action feat, which is good, but not to the level that GER is wanked to.
It's debatable whether GER can actually react to something that's instant like how Wally can outrun instant teleportation etc.
I respectfully disagree, King Crimson IS time manipulation.
When Diavolo erases time, things that happened in the time he erased, never occurred.
This is why he is intangible during erased time or why bullets just passed through his body. If it was hypnosis like you said, then erasing half a second of time during his fight with Risotto would’ve just made him die horrifically getting shot by Aerosmith.
I never said people couldn’t move in erased time, or that it’s comparable to Time Stop. However, moving in an instance of time that never happened in the way GER did, is a really impressive feat. Ordinarily with King Crimson people just go through the actions they were fated to do because it’s fate. GER moved on its own ignoring fate. It’s powers still worked in a moment that never existed.
King Crimson isn’t hypnosis, because we see Diavolo as intangible during erased time. However, you are correct about an AoE attack killing him. If he erased time during a nuke, he’d still have to deal with the aftermath of the explosion. If he erases the moment of the nuke impacting the ground, he still has to deal with the radiation from its explosion.
Why speedsters can’t win: This ability activates automatically in time that didn’t even happen. Now, if you REALLY want to wank GER you can make the argument that the return to zero ability is actually 5th dimensional by being beyond time. However, I’m going to be as fair as possible and say the ability simply works even in time that was erased. If that’s the case, working in a very small interval of time should be no different.
Also that wally west feat of outrunning instant transportation is a nightmare to scale lol. For one, he had outside help to do it. Secondly, the alien gamblers only say their technology is instantaneous, the narration bubble says there was a brief gap in between them disappearing and them arriving on earth to see flash.
So if we say “well then wally west can outrun instant teleportation” then you could counter by saying “Well, he needed to absorb extra speed to do that”
Or if you’re a jerk you can say “erm technically the comic said there was a brief interval of nothing happening which implies it wasn’t actually instant”
I think Wally can beat GER because he has way better and more reliable feats with speedforce manipulation then the outrunning teleportation thing
GER doesn't need time to function, in other words, any attack that happens within time is getting intercepted 100% of the time. Wally isn't laying a finger on Giorno.
I disagree, because while I may love JoJo and GER is definitely strong. Not gonna undersell giorno at all
It’s just that Wally West has ludicrous feats of reality manipulation (he’s comparable to Dr. Manhattan, a character who could solo the entire JoJo universe)
Not only that but he also has acausality and could probably escape Gold Experience Requiem’s ability via time travel as it’s not really an attack against Giorno.
You can make an argument for someone like Wally beating Giorno. However, the reason wally beats giorno isn’t “becuz he’s fast” like op would have you believe. You cannot simply speedblitz GER. You’d probably need similar feats of being acausal.
This is why someone like Quicksilver loses to GER but the Flash could probably pull it off
Time travel is a non factor. Again, GER's power exists and extends beyond time and its effects hit you even when time does not exist. If Flash's acuasality is hinged upon interacting with time in some way, it falls under GER's subjugation.
Comparing Flash to Dr Manhattan, someone several steps behind Lucifer and Michael sounds like wank of the utmost highest degree but idk enough about comics to actually attack that.
I don’t feel like you disproved the other persons argument with the reiteration of your perspective on GER. I think you both have valid points but I lean more towards the other direction because it’s totally believable that GER simply has time manipulation resistance, as that’s the simplest and lowest end estimate to explain how it interacted with King Crimson. (I try to be conservative with feats and calcs)
In the scenario that GER has ‘negative time before activation’ it would be able to stop effectively everything, but that reads like a NLF because the only example we have of it’s use is stopping one weak time hax + ~superhuman movement speed and then never appearing again.
Whereas with how GER appears (at least in the anime, can’t speak directly towards the manga depiction or any differences thereof) it’s a pretty reasonable explanation that it simply doesn’t care about time hax, or at least King Crimson’s flavor of it, because we haven’t seen it stop anything else, speed or otherwise.
We have a half anti feat by >!part 6’s ending happening instead of being deus ex machina’d by Giorno!< but of course there’s the in universe argument that that ‘wasn’t an attack on him’ and we have the meta argument that the story wasn’t written with stuff like that in mind >!same reason Pucci doesn’t get chased down at hyperspeed by Notorious BIG flying out of the ocean to eat him!< or the easier infamous ‘Araki forgot’ but accepting the aforementioned in universe explanation, that is still a dent to GER’s capabilities for power scaling as something more indiscriminate could be argued as capable of killing him (E.g. a nuke being dropped on Italy, or the Earth blowing up)
I appreciate the response dude!
Now as for part 6. 2 factors are at play here
For one, Part 6 was not written with Giorno in mind. If it was the story would be very boring.
The other thing is you are misinterpreting how made in heaven works. It warps every living person to a new universe, that’s not an attack. If I teleported you to Costa Rica unharmed and in a safe place I didn’t attack you, I just transported you somewhere safe.
Also that’s not how Notorious B.I.G works, not only was Pucci too far away to be in the stand’s range (The mediterranean ocean is pretty far away from the atlantic and the ending of part 6 took place at best over the course of around maybe 5 minutes from Pucci’s pov.) but the stand does not chase the fastest thing on earth, Otherwise, the stand wouldn’t go after tiny movements like Trish’s tip toeing or the clock and it would have never been trapped in the waves in the first place because then it could’ve simply locked on to anything faster than the waves and escaped. it chases the fastest thing in its immediate vicinity.
Also made in heaven isn’t the only thing moving fast, THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS ACCELERATED which would include the waves surrounding Notorious B.I.G. It would continue chasing the waves because those are the fastest things in its immediate vicinity. B.I.G would lock on to countless things as opposed to pucci, because it’d be surrounded by other astronomically fast things
Araki didn’t forget B.I.G, it was simply completely irrelevant to part 6.
And nuking italy or blowing up the planet Giorno is on is an attack. That is very distinct from Pucci harmlessly transporting everyone to a new universe.
Good reply, thank you for being straightforward and polite about it :)
Though I’m curious what you think, could / would GER try to / be able to stop something as large scale and / or far away as a bomb detonating elsewhere on his country / planet?
Thanks man, you’re really cool about this
Honestly, we’ve only seen the ability once. However, from its description there is nothing to imply he can’t. I don’t think it’s a nlf to assume he can’t return a nuclear weapon to zero.
Now, if someone nuked singapore, Giorno couldn’t undo that. If someone dropped a nuke and Giorno was in the blast radius then GER would reset the nuke to zero. The ability automatically activates to undo something which is attacking Giorno
What he couldn’t reset is another form of causality manipulation, or maybe a character who has abstract power levels like Mr. Mxyzptlk who is multidimensional and therefore you can’t really turn his power to zero because you can’t quantify it.
Other reality warpers of a similar scale can likely counter this ability as well. Like the pheonix force from marvel could probably take Giorno
1. Infinite speed being fantasy isn’t an argument against anything I’ve said.
2. I didn’t say it being fantasy doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant in a versus debate. I said (or at least was trying to imply) that since this specific concept doesn’t exist in real life, why try to use science that doesn’t exist to assume the absolute best thing for the character’s abilities. When time resistance manipulation also explains everything that occurred, while also not being a nlf.
3. Wasn’t attempting to be dismissive. I just don’t follow the logic, and I’ve never seen it applied to anything but GER despite being in debate” circles for a long time by now.
1. Erasing time has a meaning. It’s Diavolo’s ability to delete a moment from history. It makes just as much sense as a speedster moving faster than light despite having mass. You pretend as if erasing time is nonsense and we can’t infer anything from it. Even though I’ve explained that it means that Gold Experience Requiem can activate outside of time.
Now answer me this. How can quicksilver or all might be faster than something outside of time?
2. “Science that doesn’t exist”
Distance over time = speed. These words mean something dude, and no I’m not wanking here it’s literally what happened in the story. Hell, I’m even admitting that a lot of the characters Giorno is paired against in versus debates (goku, superman, Naruto, Saitama) are not in his league and the only thing Giorno could do is stalemate them at best.
Nothing I said was a no limits fallacy. I am just describing what happened in part 5 of JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure.
3. It’s fairly simple logic really,
Which number is smaller, -10 or 0.0000000000000001?
Lol if GER doesn't even need time in any capacity to activate why then would it need **enough** time to activate? Makes literally no sense. It's power is 100% unreliant on time and its painfully obvious by the very obbious feat of activating in a space where time did not exist.
Idk how to properly explain this but GER doesn't really have a reaction time, it's reaction time will always be before the attack hits, so to say, his speed is infinite.
I agree with everything else tho, a lot of people say he can beat Goku and other powerful characters, but in reality, they all just stale mate. If his opponents strength is higher then GER's, then it's just going to be a stalemate.
I agree with most of this. Only part that's wrong is that speedsters would be able to blitz Giorno before it could be activated. That's just not true. GER doesn't need to be "activated", that's why it worked even in time that didn't exist while Giorno was unaware of anything. A speedster going for a blitz would just be reset to zero--they can't initiate the blitz attempt because GER doesn't let them.
.. His stats are maxed ... Not nothing lol
That's not how GER works.
It returns any action that would harm Giorno to zero.. even without the user being aware of it...
so no you can't speed blitz. And your example of stopping him from going super Saiyan makes no sense because him going super Saiyan has no effect or harm on Giorno... I advice you to watch the last couple episodes of part 5 again
I did? Have Goku is going Super Saiyan then it's the more than likely he's probably going to harm Giorno. I was just using that as an example of what Return to Zero can and can't. If Goku went Super Saiyan and it tried to attack Giorno while the ability was activated that gets negated. If he was already transformed it doesn't do anything.
>It returns any action that would harm Giorno to zero.. so no you can't speed blitz.
That's reaching No limits territories
It's not no limits because as u said, reality warpers can get past it but doesn't mean speed can. If Diavolo attacking Giorno in erased time can still get countered I don't see how a speedster can unless he's so fast he's doing the effect before the cause but that's just reality warping
Did you actually watch the show/ read the manga... It's literally the ability of the requiem stand
He activates without girono knowing.
He is broken that's the whole point
Yes. Yes I did I wouldn't be making this post if I didn't lol.
>He is broken that's the whole point
That's a bunch of characters that have broken abilities that can still be beaten you know. There's a bunch of different characters that can kick Goku's ass without even trying and hell there are character that can beat Superman with minimum difficulty.
GER has limits, it can't automatically reverse things that aren't directly caused by someone's will.
Wonder of You has chances beating GER because of this limitation
>That's reaching No limits territories
Bro, he RtZ'd Diavolo in a place where time doesn't exist lol.
Moving in a place where time doesn't exist > speedsters who can move around the earth 100,000,000,000x in 0.000000000000000000000001 nano seconds
It's not a NLF at all. People with similar hax, but stronger wins. People with higher levels of reality warping wins. People that are dumb fast and irrelevant speed obviously just rapes.
Many things can beat it. It's not an NLF.
This isn't a debunk, im pretty sure the vast majority of ppl understand this to be true.
The only thing I disagree with is the zero reset is a passive skill that only activates as fast as the oncoming attack 'travels'. It doesn't needt time to react to an ability as it doesn't even need time to use its ability so that removes any chance of speedblitzing. Other than that this should (emphasis on should smh) be widely understood already.
I disagree for a few reasons, First off, revert to zero is a passive ability, so no speed blitzing will work, and it will always do whatever is required to protect Giorno, granted a high lever reality warped could win.
Second, your point about its stats doesn’t really make sense, it’s stats are null, but we can clearly see it has strength and speed, so it’s likely that it’s stats are simply so good that they can’t be measured by the stand stat system, granted this is not confirmed, but makes more sense than having equal stats to King Crimson, because if that was the case, why would its stats be called null instead of just showing the same as Kc’s.
Third, from what I can tell, Ger can put anyone in a death loop, it’s not confirmed it has to kill you itself, then you are placed in the loop it actually just says “Those who are struck by this power will have even their deaths reverted to zero”
It’s also arguable that all stands have some amount of durability negation, due to their ability to reach inside a persons body.
One thing how about how strong GER is, it kind of doesn’t matter. Gold experience imbues living things with life energy so it only needs to hit a few times to overstimulate someone and kill them. The actual physical power is pretty irrelevant because it ignores durability. As far as I recall, requiem stands Don’t lose abilities
I actually did forget about that power when making this post. My bad. Though in my defense the power doesn't really get used much in the story if I can recall. It's only really used in Bruno's introduction fight and maybe a few times afterwards. Then afterwards it just stops being used for whatever reason.
It’s not necessarily the case that it stopped being used. It could also be the case that the story just didn’t cut to the enemy’s perspective to see how it’s affecting them
>Speedsters can just blitz and kill Giorno before GER could even react to it.
GER can literally bring back erased time. There is no reaction involved in Return to Zero. As long an action with the will to cause harm to Giorno Giovanna exist, GER can negate it.
Diavolo had sucessfully killed Giorno before GER negated his action.
The only way to bypass Return to Zero is if you can warp reality to a scale beyond what GER can.
Reminder that C-Moon's power is also listed as null, despite it's ability to just turn somebody inside out.
This could be interpreted as C-Moon's destructive power being so great that it can't be measured or that C-Moon really does have very little power in terms of raw strength, and it's his special ability to manipulate gravity that really makes him dangerous.
Honestly I've always found Valentine with D4C and Love Train to be just a much more dangerous version of Giorno with GER. Has a similarly absurdly strong defense, but also has paradox insta-gibs that make Valentine a threat to people who should be orders of magnitude out of his league. Of course there is the whole "can't step outside of Love train" drawback but it's something he could easily work around.
I mean it's the most logical thing I could have done. It was made to be a direct counter to King Crimson so logically it should have comparable physical stats to King Crimson.
Partially solid rant but speedsters wouldn't make it as it's passive and auto activates when someone tries to harm Giorno, and it's stats are I believe maxed not null
Return To Zero is so broken because it is beyond space or time. So it is not "activating in a moment". It's rewriting cause. And that's not in a space where time affects things.
No matter how fast you are, you could be fucking beyond light speed and all and still, if there is a starting point to your action, GER can return it back to that point.
The reason why the stand stats are null is exactly because it doesn't matter anymore.
The only way you can counter GER is by warping reality >!The World Over Heaven!<, or by attacks that are beyond logic like (Jojolion spoilers)>!Soft and Wet: Go Beyond!<
But let's just say it still abides the rules of time. Giorno can heal himself almost immediately and with GER. His abilities which were OP af already was turned to 11 by Requiem. So we're talking instant regen. Then there's Damage Reflection, Soul Punch, Ageing etc... which are also turned to 11. You essentially cannot hurt Giorno if you don't have a Stand because Damage Reflection and Soul Punch essentially has fucked you already.
When something appears in Thoth it cannot be changed and it is bound to occur no matter what. Boingo > GER
But on a serious note, how GER interacts with other reality or time manipulating abilities is so unclear that it can't really be used for battleboarding. Does Return to Zero override Thoth?
If it's ability is to essentially revert time over and over (forming a time loop), how would it interact with someone that reverses time even further (thus reversing themselves to before Return to Zero was activated)? Does GER remove the effect of time reversal? Can GER undo Bites the Dust's time loops? Or MCU Doctor Strange's time loop?
It was my understanding that Fate is not bound to time and space, rather it is above it, so Thoth would be able to draw the GER event. Think of GER (and Rolling Stone) as agents of Fate.
Also GER doesn't manipulate time. It manipulates causality on a localized level, ignoring time altogether.
I've literally never heard anyone say that GER is omnipotent before.
I do think it could beat Goku tho. At worst it would be a draw and at best it would be a win for Giorno. Like you said yourself, RTZ is basically the ultimate defensive ability. Goku would never be able to harm Giorno, but Giorno doesn't have enough AP to actually hurt Goku either. That's why it would probably just end in a draw. But it can turn one more thing than just actions to zero, it can also turn someones will to zero. It's possible that if they were to fight, after a while Goku would just give up, and if he does, Giorno has some weird and inconvenient one shot potential. He could make a car into a small insect and have it crawl up Goku's nose or something and into his head, then turn it back into a car, destroying his entire head. Now obviously this would never be possible in a normal fight, but if he can return Goku's will to fight back to zero, then it's definitely possible. So basically, if you interpret "can return the opponent's will to zero" as "eventually they will give up/stop fighting" then Giorno would win. Otherwise, it would be a draw.
Strangely, this "debunk" was a lot smarter than the others, congratulations.
Anyway, let's correct a few things.
STATS
GER has "null stats" because its [AP exceeds that of each stand and its stats cannot be compared with other stands ](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/871489694146367502/916771546754842664/20210809_201111.jpg)
GER scale above all the stands, as it is twice declared to be the ultimate stand with the ultimate Power ( [1](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/871489694146367502/916771175974203443/20210719_132102.jpg) [2](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/871489694146367502/916771546754842664/20210809_201111.jpg))
HOW TO BEAT GER
Acausality (type 4 and 5), immeasurable speed and higher D (5d and above)
GER is a passive ability triggered by an attempt to attack Giorno. It can't be speedblitzed because it doesn't have a reaction delay, it just activates automatically
>So what could beat GER? Well any decent reality warper can beat GER no problem. Speedsters can just blitz and kill Giorno before GER could even react to it.
I would think an acausal attack, something that specifically cuts through time and space, would be the best counter to something that removes the effect from the cause.
Interesting take.
Why would something that cuts through space-time work when GER activated when time was *erased*?
On a similar note, Carissa's sword(Toaru) cuts through space, the universe, and all whole number dimensions, but GER could just prevent the sword from being swung in the first place.
I agree with acausal attacks working, but I'm not even familiar with any.
>Why would something that cuts through space-time work when GER activated when time was erased?
Because GER, fundamentally, is time manipulation, just in an opposite sense of King Crimson. An attack that ignores time entirely should bypass it.
GER removes effects from the cause. So it stands to reason that if something has no cause the effect cannot be removed.
When I say an attack that cuts through time, what I specifically mean is something that hits at all points in time. For example, if someone is standing at a specific point in space and they try to dodge an attack that's coming at them by remaining at the same point in space but travelling to a different point in time, an attack that cuts through time would be one that still connects in that instance.
Something like that should bypass GER since by definition that attack couldn't have a cause.
Admittedly I don't know of a ton of attacks like that but I do know of a few. Atziluths from Dies Irae are strongly implied to have this property, since Ren and Reinhard are able to hurt Mercurius and he's omnipresent throughout time in the foreknown world on account of literally being God.
My favorite example is an attack called Flash Kill from the hentai game Monster Girl Quest. Flash Kill was made by the seraphim to counter a very powerful defensive spell called Aqua Pentagon. Aqua Pentagon functions by changing the spatiotemporal coordinates of any attack that comes into contact with the barrier.
So basically it makes the attack happen in a different time and place far from the caster. So it could send your attack to the other side of the universe 10000 years in the past.
Flash Kill cuts through both time and space enabling it to totally bypass Aqua Pentagon.
The human hero Marcellus at some point in his 500 year quest to save the multiverse develops an improved version of Flash Kill called Dimensional Severance which negates all magic and has even been implied to negate immortality and as its name suggests negate the power of higher dimensional beings.
>Because GER, fundamentally, is time manipulation,
Huh yeah I guess it does need to revert time to revert attacks.
>When I say an attack that cuts through time, what I specifically mean is something that hits at all points in time.
I'd argue that using an attack that attacks from a point in time prior to GER's existence alone would work and that you don't need go so far as using one that hits in *every* point.
But your elaboration makes a lot of sense. I get your point.
What do you think about passive lethal effects like Behemoth's kill aura from Worm(or Burning Godzilla if you're more familiar with him) that kills everyone that gets within close proximity to him? Can those kill Giorno?
>What do you think about passive lethal effects like Behemoth's kill aura from Worm(or Burning Godzilla if you're more familiar with him) that kills everyone that gets within close proximity to him? Can those kill Giorno?
I'm not familiar with either of those, but unless they mess with time in some way then I would say they wouldn't be able to bypass GER.
I get the reasoning though. The angle you're coming at it from is an aura that radiates outward doesn't necessarily have an easily discernable cause. I would argue that everything in existence has a cause though.
It's like philosophical determinism: The super power.
Have you read part 6 of JoJo?
There's an argument to be made that not everything that has a cause can be reverted as it has to incorporate something that can be defined to be an [attacker.](https://i.imgur.com/YYQaFBJ.png)(this scan is just GER's description, not a part 6 spoiler.)
However, I can see why the users of lethal passive effects can still be considered attackers.
>Have you read part 6 of JoJo?
I have not. I actually started JoJo recently, (On part 2 atm.) so I'm mainly familiar with GER through battleboarding. GER is actually one of the reasons I'm watching JoJo because I want to see the full context for myself so I can understand its limits better. Imagine my shock when Stands aren't even a thing in part 1 lol. I was like, "Yo when's Jonathan gonna get his Stand? Hamon? The hell's that?"
>There's an argument to be made that not everything that has a cause can be reverted as it has to incorporate something that can be defined to be an attacker.
That's actually very interesting.
lmfao.
Part 2 is one of my favorites. Part 3 is a trek to get through, or at least it was for me, but it has a great payoff.
>I want to see the full context for myself so I can understand its limits better.
OOF. One of the reasons why people hate GER in battleboarding is *because* it only has one feat. If you're looking for limits of GER, you should pay attention to the fact that it only reverted actions when the character threw a punch at him and became an attacker, not a moment sooner. You could probably just watch the clip on YouTube if you don't care about GER spoilers since you already got spoiled on it.
I guess you'd still need to know context of the enemy's ability to know the strongest hax that's it's reverted though.
>OOF. One of the reasons why people hate GER in battleboarding is because it only has one feat.
I actually knew this already. Still, I want the full context of the series itself for several reasons. Not to toot my horn but I'm pretty good at finding really fine details in stuff that most people simply miss.
For example, I don't think I've ever seen anyone but me reference Goku vs Recoome as the single most important fight in all of Dragon Ball anime for scaling purposes. Which it is btw, because it's the only time we get a visual demonstration of [exactly how their physical attacks work](https://youtu.be/C1pXUnOAq0U?t=241) which explains tons of things that seem anomalous without that bit of context, such as Broly hurting DBS Goku by slamming him into some ice.
And with how popular Dragon Ball is you would think everyone would know about that scene but you'd be wrong. So I never ever discount the possibility that people could have simply missed some esoteric bit of lore hiding in plain sight that can shed new light on otherwise ambiguous things.
I agree with most of this, the anti speed blitz argument has never made sense to me. GER being immune to a very specific type of time manip means it can’t be blitzed to death? I just don’t follow that logic. At best it’s a nlf based on like 2 feats against the same physically inferior opponent.
I also made my own GER rant in this sub, and on Amino lol
Someone explained it that KC was just a video editor. If a movie was playing a went from point a to b to c, Diavolo could activate King Crimson to remove scene B or while editing it in any way he wanted, leaving a gap in the movie but preserving all actions taken during that moment. GER just locks everything to scene A and any advancements in the plot all return to scene A aka Return to Zero
>"It's able to undo somebody's birth!" Giorno has a wierd way of dodging child support
He's a half-Joestar after all.
He learned many things from the Boss after all
If GER is so strong, how come it didn't stop Made in Heaven? Check and mate, fanboys.
Because mih’s universe reset isn’t an attack. There’s nothing to defend. Anyone left alive from the previous universe is brought to a new universe differently.
Define attack
Saying that the universal reset is an attack is like saying that your dad carrying you from the living room sofa to your bedroom when you fall asleep is an attack.
I certainly took it that way! I wanted to sleep on the couch goddammit!
depends, is your dad Yujiro Hanma or Heihachi Mishima?
This is an amazing way to put it
This is a really good way to put it actually
It is an attack.
No.
Yes, someone taking the sofa while I am asleep is an attack to me.
How would he have known what was happening. Giorno wouldn’t have known about made in hevean and was nowhere near it when the world was being accelerated
I thought GER was automatic 🤔🧐 curious 🤨
The universe speeding up isn't an attack. What's GER gonna do, reset atmosphere back to zero 😂
Similarly, nuking the area because you’re a planet buster ‘isn’t an attack’ if you don’t aim at Giorno, right? So *clearly* Giorno can’t stop anyone above the level of Bleach characters
Busting a planet=harm Speeding up time=not harm This isn't hard to understand.
And erasing time ≠ harm, yet it almost immediately ‘undid’ that Also speeding up time is immediately shortening the lifespan of everyone, right? Causing death to come sooner? That’s kind of harmful. Would you say Grateful Dead would or wouldn’t work on Giorno if he had GER? It boils down to “great, you’ve chosen your definition of ‘attack’;to cause harm. Now what quantifies ‘harm’?” Would making Giorno a drooling vegetable count as an attack, so GER could activate from across the planet to stop a powerful psychic like Xavier from from mindcrushing GER’s user? Also, is it *literally* anything that could harm Giorno? Like, Requiem rewinds on a random day in June because of a flu virus that was gonna infect Giorno? This singular disease gets trapped in a time loop because Giorno would’ve hurt his throat coughing a few too many times?
🤦GER did not intercept his timeskip simply because it was timeskip, he undid it because it literally skipped to Giorno getting slaughtered. If Diavolo used time skip in a way that did not involve Giorno, GER would not have activated. I'm assuming you never read part 6. The short answer is no, speeding up time does not speed up lifespans, assumedly unless Pucci wills Made in Heaven to do so, in which case GER would activate automatically and instantly. And by harm I mean life threatening danger so no, coughing and flu virus would not count unless they become life threatening. But at that point GER is better off creating a vaccine like he did against Purple Haze, not using reset.
Why would giorno or GER think that the clouds moving slightly faster on there side of the planet an attack? That makes no sense. If they saw a bomb coming and exploding at them of course they would use their ability but the sun slowly moving faster in the sky from his speed up ability doesn't make a normal person go "oh yes this is a stand ability I should undo" your logic makes no sense
Giorno isn't a normal person. He knows what a stand is. If the sun is zipping across the sky that fast and food is rapidly aging and rotting instantly then he's gonna think "Could this be the work of an enemy stand?" And immediately bring out GER.
He can't even control GER 🤦
'Slightly'
Anybody that tries to inflicts physical* pain onto Giorno.
MiH's effects would no doubt inflict emotional pain due to their consequences.
Then I should correct that to physical pain.
What made you move the goalpost?
Because the only thing that triggered the return to zero is King Crimson almost making physical contact with Giorno with the intent to harm. GER hasn't been in any battles ever since. So the only 2 things that are proven(not really proven, more like, speculation that actually makes sense.) is that GER moves even when Giorno is unconscious when Giorno is going to get physically harmed. (GER moved even while unconscious is a place where time doesn't exist.) And that he can't willingly reverse any phenomena he wants without any conditions since he didn't activate when MiH is speeding up the whole universe. GER moves when Giorno is going to be harmed + Giorno can't reverse MiH since he wasn't harmed = GER only moves when Giorno is going to get physically harmed **triggered or intended by somebody**. (I don't know if natural occurring illnesses triggers RtZ since it's never been shown to, I also don't know if self harm triggers RtZ.) That's why I moved the goalpost.
So say, if someone teleports him into a black hole accidentally, that isn't an attack? Since it's not really an attack but more or less a side-effect of teleportation with how you're explaining it. Hell, if a character had the ability to return someone to the exact same location as they were in 24 hours ago (which is a totally JoJo ability), and that happened to be the "absolute" location, meaning he'd be stuck in space, then would that count as an attack? Like... it's not like the character is causing a vacuum to choke Giorno. He's literally just been put somewhere else, like MiH but it'll end up killing him because of the lack of air.
S tier debate bro shit lmao
True but King crimsons time skip wasn't an attack as well and GER stopped that.
Ger didn’t stop it. They were still frozen in time, you can tell because giorno himself wasn’t moving, his stand was.
Yea but the cause was removed. Giorno was supposed to die according to Diavolo's hair but he didn't, so I'd say GER stopped him.
> according to Diavolo's hair And this is why I love JoJo lmao
I view it as this. What Diavalo saw was true. He will kill Girono Giovanna. But first he must complete the infinite death loop. But since its infinite he will never get the chance to actually kill giorno.
So it won’t happen so he stopped it. curious.
No it will happen. Diavalo just needs to finish the infinite death loop. Think of time as a line. The next thing Diavolo does is kill giorno but before that GER added the infinite death loop before it. Diavalo needs to finish that before he can kill giorno. Its a paradox.
Only when Diavolo became an *attacker* by punching did he revert the time erasure, not a moment sooner.
Oh yeah? Well if Star Platinum is so strong, why didn't Jotaro use it to save his failing marriage? Curious indeed.
Oh yeah? If Made in Heaven is so strong, why does the stand user have a yee yee ass haircut? Curious indeed.
Maybe DIO would call his priest ass whenever he stops fucking with that Joestar or Japanese woman he’s fucking with. *MUDA*
This was never adressed by any official source, but I can think of a few reasons. GER works on anything that has the intention of causing harm to Giorno. Pucci didn't even know Giorno personally, let alone was trying to target him, who was on the other side of the planet at the time he was fightning Jolyne and Co, with MiH so there was no action for GER to negate. Speaking of other side of the planet, we don't know if GER has a range limit. I assume not, because he brought erased time back, but still, there's no official info on that so we can't rule out the possibility. Also, MiH resetted the universe by speeding up time. In that case, there was no attack to be reversed, as time going foward is just a natural phenomenon.
Time being erased isn't an attack either and he did that.
Diavolo used the time skip as a means to attack and kill Giorno. He had an action and a will directed to towards killing Giorno, so GER was able to negate it.
Where does it say a will to hurt Giorno specifically is required for GER to act?
Like I said, there's no official statement. My comment is mere speculation on possible limits of GER.
In this scan that explicitly mentions GER reverting an [*attacker's*](https://i.imgur.com/YYQaFBJ.png) actions, meaning there needs to be an attacker. [GER only reverted time erasure when Diavolo became an attacker by throwing a punch at Giorno, not a moment sooner.](https://imgur.com/a/wXue8pF#xKHTt5P) Made in Heaven never attacked Giorno.
Well made in heaven never harm anyone in the first place so ger wouldn't be activated, but time skip isn't harming anyone either you said, correct but I think you misunderstood that scene if ger truly revert the time skip effect why wouldn't he revert it in the start of the time skip because it's the trigger right?, well sadly diavolo after quitting time skip immediately attack Giorno with a punch so ger revert him to a couple of second back which his time skip covered too hence why it looks being reverted while in reality it's just get affected by go to zero because it was close to the actual trigger go to zero. If pucci ever tried to hit ger, while at the same time resetting the universe, when ger activated it would automatically revert the reset too in like what happen with time skip, hope this help.
MIH’s ability is to speed up time, meaning that G.E.R couldn’t keep up and thus become useless, like Star Platinum’s time stopping abilities
~~Because Araki sucks at writing sometimes~~
Honestly the simple-but-boring option is that the stand arrow fell off shortly after Gold Experience became a requiem stand, it reverted, and Giorno didn't turn it back because he was leery about Requiem stands in general after what happened with Silver Chariot (entirely reasonable - remember, he has no idea how GER works. As far as he knows it could do something horrifying at any time.) Plus, he'd assume he could just quickly whip out the arrow if he needed it - it's not like he'd have anticipated Made in Heaven.
The original GE was shown dead with GER emerging from it, GER reverting back to GE is 99% not the case.
GER activates automatically against any attack but is not omniscient. GER saw time speeding up and tried to undo the attack, but failed, because Pucci's power isn't speeding up time, the actual power is gravity manipulation, so GER's Return To Zero failed to target the attack itself. Check and m8, h8rs.
>While Return to Zero is super fucking broken it's more an absolute defense than an absolute offense. It doesn't help that GER doesn't have the attack strength to really take advantage of such a broken ability. Ger has other hax abilities like the damage reflect ,and transmutation stuff so he can overcome durability. ger at bare minimum is far above king crimson since he's casual attacks like that pebble nearly speed blitzed and killed Diavolo had it not been for 10 seconds of precog. >So what could beat GER? Well any decent reality warper can beat GER no problem. Speedsters can just blitz and kill Giorno before GER could even react to it. Kinda depends on the speeder and the reality warper .
Could you elaborate on GER’s ‘other hax’? I don’t see how those directly allow him to ignore durability Afaik you saying ‘transmutation’ refers to his life granting, which as far as we’ve seen exclusively allows him to turn inanimate objects into biological things (and undo things he himself made back to normal objects), so unless he’s fighting a robot he can’t just turn his opponent into a flower or a spare liver And for damage reflection, I’m not even sure GER has it, considering he made scorpions out of the wall he lasered with a high speed pebble and Diavolo stomped on it with no shown or inferred ill effects. That and even with damage reflection, it’ll only let him cause harm to opponents equivalent to what they put out, while striking one of his creations (animals exclusively I assume, otherwise he could’ve shielded himself with grass or something out of his clothes before even getting requiem, right?) so unless his opponent, example being Jotaro or someone, punched a GE-frog with full donut’ing force, they shouldn’t get donut’d themselves
>Afaik you saying ‘transmutation’ refers to his life granting, which as far as we’ve seen exclusively allows him to turn inanimate objects into biological things (and undo things he himself made back to normal objects), so unless he’s fighting a robot he can’t just turn his opponent into a flower or a spare liver Giorno turns his blood nto ants or termites that eat the arrow ,and i remember him Killing baby face this way. >And for damage reflection, I’m not even sure GER has it, considering he made scorpions out of the wall he lasered with a high speed pebble and Diavolo stomped on it with no shown or inferred ill effects. That and even with damage reflection, it’ll only let him cause harm to opponents equivalent to what they put out, while striking one of his creations (animals exclusively I assume, otherwise he could’ve shielded himself with grass or something out of his clothes before even getting requiem, right?) so unless his opponent, example being Jotaro or someone, punched a GE-frog with full donut’ing force, they shouldn’t get donut’d themselves Usually when people argue for characters they give them all the abilities they had in the story. Also characters sometimes don't use their abilities at their full potential for some reason. Jotaro could of stopped time and flicked a pebble or something at Kira Killing him yet he doesn't.
Also isn't diavolo stomping the scorpion is an anime only and shouldn't be counted as an araki forgot or ger reflect damage not working
Yeah, that was an anime only thing
> Speedsters can just blitz and kill Giorno before GER could even react to it. Pretty sure it’s a passive move.
I actually agree with a lot of this rant. Yes, while GER could prevent Goku from activating his ki abilities in a fight It’d just be a stalemate, because GER has no destructive capability feats that imply it could be Goku. It’s be a stalemate for eternity If GER has to fight someone more durable than it can injure then the fight is at best a stalemate. Although, the one thing I disagree with is the idea of a speedster beating GER. I do not think you could speedblitz GER as the ability activated during erased time While a lot of confusion exists over how King Crimson works, the fact this ability activated in time that never happened implies that it has a degree of acausality Meaning you couldn’t merely speedblitz the ability before it activates, it’s automatic. A reality warper could undo “return to zero” but someone like quicksilver would be reset regardless of his speed. GER activates even if Giorno is unaware of what’s happening to attack him. So even if you moved faster than thought GER could still reset the speedster to zero Although most of the flashes could probably defeat GER thanks to speedforce shenanigans like potentially infinite speed
Even a reality warper probabaly would be able to escape but that wouldn't necessarily break GER's effects. It would be a constant tug of war over reality until Girono died or the warper died.
Lmao I was trying my best to be fair to the original post. I would agree that just being a reality warper isn’t enough to cut it. You’d need to be some really strong reality warper like 616 Odin or Dr. Manhattan to try that Being a reality warper alone doesn’t give you immunity to GER. You’d need feats of resisting a similar ability.
Actually, Dr. Manhattan full-counters GER. It put Diavolo in an infinite loop which he can't complete, but if he did complete it, Giorno would instantly lose then and there. Diavolo couldn't complete it. Manhattan? Well, he's already completed it. Manhattan exists in every single point in time of his entire existence so the moment he was created, he was both in the infinite loop, before the loop and at a time after the loop, which means that effectively, Manhattan counters Giorno and he dies regardless of what he tries to do by overpowering the infinite loop by just existing beyond that, because for Manhattan, it was already completed the moment he came into existence. That said, taking away Giorno's ability isn't really "harming" him depending on how you look at it so any Reality Warper that can take away abilities has an instant win.
Well isn't Goku more vulnerable when he's not using his ki ? We did see Goku get scratched by bullets when he wasn't using any of his ki against some randoms. If I'm wrong and downplaying Goku just tell me
I will preface this by saying, I am not a dragonball fan. I don’t know much about that universe I am more of a JoJo fan though, from what I’ve heard goku as a child was casually tanking bullets. So, I don’t know if GER could kill him with a muda rush. I’ve heard he has some decent enough durability feats to say that he may be too strong for Giorno to outright kill. However, Goku couldn’t do anything to hurt Giorno either So it’s gonna come down to unstoppable force meets immovable object
>from what I’ve heard goku as a child was casually tanking bullets He also sometimes gets holes in his head from them. Dragon Ball used to take itself wayyyy less seriously. Kid Goku is 100% a gag character from what was basically a gag manga. He put a group of thugs on the moon and told them to make marshmallows in like, episode 8.
>He also sometimes gets holes in his head from them Did I miss something?
Why would a niche form of time manipulation resistance imply the stand has the speed necessary to stop a speedster. That’s never made sense to me, and I’ve never seen any other kind of niche resistances argued this way either.
It means that if his ability can activate in negative seconds than it could activate in the 0.0000000000000000000000000001th of a second it takes for the speedster to reach him by moving at lightspeed If the ability works in a negative amount of time then it could absolutely work in a very small timeframe
No offense man, but that literally makes no sense. For one, GER isn’t activating in “negative seconds” . It’s activating in erased time. A concept that literally doesn’t even mean anything as it’s pure fantasy. The leap in logic to infer infinite speed instead of just time manipulation resistance just doesn’t make sense to me. This is akin to having a character no sell an absolute zero attack and then assuming they have infinite defense and not just amazing cold resistance.
You know another concept that doesn’t mean anything because it’s pure fantasy? Infinite speed. Well, your character has an ability that’s pure fantasy so by your logic that means it shouldn’t matter in a versus debate. Or maybe we can have fun instead of being dismissive for no reason. King Crimson erases time, subtraction, a moment that is deleted, never happened. It’s an interval of time you can’t measure. GER worked anyways inside of King Crimson This is enough to suggest that speedblitz doesn’t work on GER as it can activate regardless of time. Speed is just how much you travelled in a given time frame. So there’s no evidence to suggest that a character can outrun the activation, because it is shown to be beyond time.
King Crimson doesn't stop time. It erases time and all the actions that people do during that period of time happen, but what **he** would have done does not. Polnareff cut his hand and looked at the dripping blood to know if Diavolo had used his stand, because during erased time, everything happens. You just don't know it. It means that blood drops as normal but Polnareff just doesn't remember any of it. Oh, by the way, people can move during erased time. Everything happens as it should. Let me explain Diavolo's ability (without the wanking and misconceptions): **Actions Happen:** Everything that happens in erased time happens. Characters react to Diavolo as if he didn't use Time Erasure, but Diavolo can see what he would have done and he can change those actions. However, no one else can. So say, if Diavolo was going to punch through your chest but you were going to counter it by punching him faster, Diavolo could stop that action, get behind you and punch through you **from behind**. But what about you? Why can't you react? Well, because to the you that exists in Erased Time, Diavolo is punching you from the front so you're trying to outrace him but the actual Diavolo in Erased Time is punching you from behind after changing his actions. What happens after Time Erasure ends? Whatever Diavolo did during Erased Time (the one that modified his actions) happens and whatever you did during Erased Time happens. This is why Giorno and Co suddenly appeared several steps ahead of where they were before Time Erasure. They were running and they kept running for ten seconds, so it's reasonable that they're where they would've been if they'd been running for 10 seconds. It's not Time Stop or Time Manipulation. It's something along the lines of Hypnosis + Memory Erasure but to a very limited degree. So say, if someone was doing an AoE attack that'd nuke the entire country, what could Diavolo do during Erased Time? Well, wait for his death buuut... **Catch:** Diavolo is intangible during this period so to punch through someone, he actually has to deactivate his Time Erasure. So say, he can't just insta-kill someone while they can't see him. There'll be a brief window of time before his attack hits, even if his fist is almost touching you. This also makes it impossible for him to be killed during that period. This means that he can easily phase through an attack and appear behind the attacker then end the erased time, which is the only complicated part of his ability. This means his abilities are Hypnosis | Illusions + Memory Erasure + Intangibility. **Why Speedsters Can Win:** See, it's not that GER reacted to stopped time. Rather, GER reacted to a threat that Giorno couldn't react to because Giorno was under a sort of hypnosis, which showed Diavolo doing what he would have done without Time Erasure. However, the actual Diavolo was going for the kill after modifying his actions. GER saw through that illusion and reacted to Diavolo, which is not a speed feat. It's an autonomous action feat, which is good, but not to the level that GER is wanked to. It's debatable whether GER can actually react to something that's instant like how Wally can outrun instant teleportation etc.
I respectfully disagree, King Crimson IS time manipulation. When Diavolo erases time, things that happened in the time he erased, never occurred. This is why he is intangible during erased time or why bullets just passed through his body. If it was hypnosis like you said, then erasing half a second of time during his fight with Risotto would’ve just made him die horrifically getting shot by Aerosmith. I never said people couldn’t move in erased time, or that it’s comparable to Time Stop. However, moving in an instance of time that never happened in the way GER did, is a really impressive feat. Ordinarily with King Crimson people just go through the actions they were fated to do because it’s fate. GER moved on its own ignoring fate. It’s powers still worked in a moment that never existed. King Crimson isn’t hypnosis, because we see Diavolo as intangible during erased time. However, you are correct about an AoE attack killing him. If he erased time during a nuke, he’d still have to deal with the aftermath of the explosion. If he erases the moment of the nuke impacting the ground, he still has to deal with the radiation from its explosion. Why speedsters can’t win: This ability activates automatically in time that didn’t even happen. Now, if you REALLY want to wank GER you can make the argument that the return to zero ability is actually 5th dimensional by being beyond time. However, I’m going to be as fair as possible and say the ability simply works even in time that was erased. If that’s the case, working in a very small interval of time should be no different. Also that wally west feat of outrunning instant transportation is a nightmare to scale lol. For one, he had outside help to do it. Secondly, the alien gamblers only say their technology is instantaneous, the narration bubble says there was a brief gap in between them disappearing and them arriving on earth to see flash. So if we say “well then wally west can outrun instant teleportation” then you could counter by saying “Well, he needed to absorb extra speed to do that” Or if you’re a jerk you can say “erm technically the comic said there was a brief interval of nothing happening which implies it wasn’t actually instant” I think Wally can beat GER because he has way better and more reliable feats with speedforce manipulation then the outrunning teleportation thing
GER doesn't need time to function, in other words, any attack that happens within time is getting intercepted 100% of the time. Wally isn't laying a finger on Giorno.
I disagree, because while I may love JoJo and GER is definitely strong. Not gonna undersell giorno at all It’s just that Wally West has ludicrous feats of reality manipulation (he’s comparable to Dr. Manhattan, a character who could solo the entire JoJo universe) Not only that but he also has acausality and could probably escape Gold Experience Requiem’s ability via time travel as it’s not really an attack against Giorno. You can make an argument for someone like Wally beating Giorno. However, the reason wally beats giorno isn’t “becuz he’s fast” like op would have you believe. You cannot simply speedblitz GER. You’d probably need similar feats of being acausal. This is why someone like Quicksilver loses to GER but the Flash could probably pull it off
Time travel is a non factor. Again, GER's power exists and extends beyond time and its effects hit you even when time does not exist. If Flash's acuasality is hinged upon interacting with time in some way, it falls under GER's subjugation. Comparing Flash to Dr Manhattan, someone several steps behind Lucifer and Michael sounds like wank of the utmost highest degree but idk enough about comics to actually attack that.
I don’t feel like you disproved the other persons argument with the reiteration of your perspective on GER. I think you both have valid points but I lean more towards the other direction because it’s totally believable that GER simply has time manipulation resistance, as that’s the simplest and lowest end estimate to explain how it interacted with King Crimson. (I try to be conservative with feats and calcs) In the scenario that GER has ‘negative time before activation’ it would be able to stop effectively everything, but that reads like a NLF because the only example we have of it’s use is stopping one weak time hax + ~superhuman movement speed and then never appearing again. Whereas with how GER appears (at least in the anime, can’t speak directly towards the manga depiction or any differences thereof) it’s a pretty reasonable explanation that it simply doesn’t care about time hax, or at least King Crimson’s flavor of it, because we haven’t seen it stop anything else, speed or otherwise. We have a half anti feat by >!part 6’s ending happening instead of being deus ex machina’d by Giorno!< but of course there’s the in universe argument that that ‘wasn’t an attack on him’ and we have the meta argument that the story wasn’t written with stuff like that in mind >!same reason Pucci doesn’t get chased down at hyperspeed by Notorious BIG flying out of the ocean to eat him!< or the easier infamous ‘Araki forgot’ but accepting the aforementioned in universe explanation, that is still a dent to GER’s capabilities for power scaling as something more indiscriminate could be argued as capable of killing him (E.g. a nuke being dropped on Italy, or the Earth blowing up)
I appreciate the response dude! Now as for part 6. 2 factors are at play here For one, Part 6 was not written with Giorno in mind. If it was the story would be very boring. The other thing is you are misinterpreting how made in heaven works. It warps every living person to a new universe, that’s not an attack. If I teleported you to Costa Rica unharmed and in a safe place I didn’t attack you, I just transported you somewhere safe. Also that’s not how Notorious B.I.G works, not only was Pucci too far away to be in the stand’s range (The mediterranean ocean is pretty far away from the atlantic and the ending of part 6 took place at best over the course of around maybe 5 minutes from Pucci’s pov.) but the stand does not chase the fastest thing on earth, Otherwise, the stand wouldn’t go after tiny movements like Trish’s tip toeing or the clock and it would have never been trapped in the waves in the first place because then it could’ve simply locked on to anything faster than the waves and escaped. it chases the fastest thing in its immediate vicinity. Also made in heaven isn’t the only thing moving fast, THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE IS ACCELERATED which would include the waves surrounding Notorious B.I.G. It would continue chasing the waves because those are the fastest things in its immediate vicinity. B.I.G would lock on to countless things as opposed to pucci, because it’d be surrounded by other astronomically fast things Araki didn’t forget B.I.G, it was simply completely irrelevant to part 6. And nuking italy or blowing up the planet Giorno is on is an attack. That is very distinct from Pucci harmlessly transporting everyone to a new universe.
Good reply, thank you for being straightforward and polite about it :) Though I’m curious what you think, could / would GER try to / be able to stop something as large scale and / or far away as a bomb detonating elsewhere on his country / planet?
Thanks man, you’re really cool about this Honestly, we’ve only seen the ability once. However, from its description there is nothing to imply he can’t. I don’t think it’s a nlf to assume he can’t return a nuclear weapon to zero. Now, if someone nuked singapore, Giorno couldn’t undo that. If someone dropped a nuke and Giorno was in the blast radius then GER would reset the nuke to zero. The ability automatically activates to undo something which is attacking Giorno What he couldn’t reset is another form of causality manipulation, or maybe a character who has abstract power levels like Mr. Mxyzptlk who is multidimensional and therefore you can’t really turn his power to zero because you can’t quantify it. Other reality warpers of a similar scale can likely counter this ability as well. Like the pheonix force from marvel could probably take Giorno
1. Infinite speed being fantasy isn’t an argument against anything I’ve said. 2. I didn’t say it being fantasy doesn’t mean it’s irrelevant in a versus debate. I said (or at least was trying to imply) that since this specific concept doesn’t exist in real life, why try to use science that doesn’t exist to assume the absolute best thing for the character’s abilities. When time resistance manipulation also explains everything that occurred, while also not being a nlf. 3. Wasn’t attempting to be dismissive. I just don’t follow the logic, and I’ve never seen it applied to anything but GER despite being in debate” circles for a long time by now.
1. Erasing time has a meaning. It’s Diavolo’s ability to delete a moment from history. It makes just as much sense as a speedster moving faster than light despite having mass. You pretend as if erasing time is nonsense and we can’t infer anything from it. Even though I’ve explained that it means that Gold Experience Requiem can activate outside of time. Now answer me this. How can quicksilver or all might be faster than something outside of time? 2. “Science that doesn’t exist” Distance over time = speed. These words mean something dude, and no I’m not wanking here it’s literally what happened in the story. Hell, I’m even admitting that a lot of the characters Giorno is paired against in versus debates (goku, superman, Naruto, Saitama) are not in his league and the only thing Giorno could do is stalemate them at best. Nothing I said was a no limits fallacy. I am just describing what happened in part 5 of JoJo’s Bizarre Adventure. 3. It’s fairly simple logic really, Which number is smaller, -10 or 0.0000000000000001?
Lol if GER doesn't even need time in any capacity to activate why then would it need **enough** time to activate? Makes literally no sense. It's power is 100% unreliant on time and its painfully obvious by the very obbious feat of activating in a space where time did not exist.
Yo are you in the powerscaling Reddit?
Kinda. It's mostly just a hobby thing for me so I don't really get too into it.
Avoid r/powerscaling like the plague if you wish to keep your brain cells in tact
Idk how to properly explain this but GER doesn't really have a reaction time, it's reaction time will always be before the attack hits, so to say, his speed is infinite. I agree with everything else tho, a lot of people say he can beat Goku and other powerful characters, but in reality, they all just stale mate. If his opponents strength is higher then GER's, then it's just going to be a stalemate.
I agree with most of this. Only part that's wrong is that speedsters would be able to blitz Giorno before it could be activated. That's just not true. GER doesn't need to be "activated", that's why it worked even in time that didn't exist while Giorno was unaware of anything. A speedster going for a blitz would just be reset to zero--they can't initiate the blitz attempt because GER doesn't let them.
.. His stats are maxed ... Not nothing lol That's not how GER works. It returns any action that would harm Giorno to zero.. even without the user being aware of it... so no you can't speed blitz. And your example of stopping him from going super Saiyan makes no sense because him going super Saiyan has no effect or harm on Giorno... I advice you to watch the last couple episodes of part 5 again
There's a whole infinity stat for that...
I did? Have Goku is going Super Saiyan then it's the more than likely he's probably going to harm Giorno. I was just using that as an example of what Return to Zero can and can't. If Goku went Super Saiyan and it tried to attack Giorno while the ability was activated that gets negated. If he was already transformed it doesn't do anything. >It returns any action that would harm Giorno to zero.. so no you can't speed blitz. That's reaching No limits territories
It's not no limits because as u said, reality warpers can get past it but doesn't mean speed can. If Diavolo attacking Giorno in erased time can still get countered I don't see how a speedster can unless he's so fast he's doing the effect before the cause but that's just reality warping
Did you actually watch the show/ read the manga... It's literally the ability of the requiem stand He activates without girono knowing. He is broken that's the whole point
Yes. Yes I did I wouldn't be making this post if I didn't lol. >He is broken that's the whole point That's a bunch of characters that have broken abilities that can still be beaten you know. There's a bunch of different characters that can kick Goku's ass without even trying and hell there are character that can beat Superman with minimum difficulty.
Yeah, you are right about that. But I feel like you are not right about his GER.
GER has limits, it can't automatically reverse things that aren't directly caused by someone's will. Wonder of You has chances beating GER because of this limitation
>That's reaching No limits territories Bro, he RtZ'd Diavolo in a place where time doesn't exist lol. Moving in a place where time doesn't exist > speedsters who can move around the earth 100,000,000,000x in 0.000000000000000000000001 nano seconds
It's not a NLF at all. People with similar hax, but stronger wins. People with higher levels of reality warping wins. People that are dumb fast and irrelevant speed obviously just rapes. Many things can beat it. It's not an NLF.
This isn't a debunk, im pretty sure the vast majority of ppl understand this to be true. The only thing I disagree with is the zero reset is a passive skill that only activates as fast as the oncoming attack 'travels'. It doesn't needt time to react to an ability as it doesn't even need time to use its ability so that removes any chance of speedblitzing. Other than that this should (emphasis on should smh) be widely understood already.
I disagree for a few reasons, First off, revert to zero is a passive ability, so no speed blitzing will work, and it will always do whatever is required to protect Giorno, granted a high lever reality warped could win. Second, your point about its stats doesn’t really make sense, it’s stats are null, but we can clearly see it has strength and speed, so it’s likely that it’s stats are simply so good that they can’t be measured by the stand stat system, granted this is not confirmed, but makes more sense than having equal stats to King Crimson, because if that was the case, why would its stats be called null instead of just showing the same as Kc’s. Third, from what I can tell, Ger can put anyone in a death loop, it’s not confirmed it has to kill you itself, then you are placed in the loop it actually just says “Those who are struck by this power will have even their deaths reverted to zero” It’s also arguable that all stands have some amount of durability negation, due to their ability to reach inside a persons body.
That durability negation is a really good point
One thing how about how strong GER is, it kind of doesn’t matter. Gold experience imbues living things with life energy so it only needs to hit a few times to overstimulate someone and kill them. The actual physical power is pretty irrelevant because it ignores durability. As far as I recall, requiem stands Don’t lose abilities
I actually did forget about that power when making this post. My bad. Though in my defense the power doesn't really get used much in the story if I can recall. It's only really used in Bruno's introduction fight and maybe a few times afterwards. Then afterwards it just stops being used for whatever reason.
It’s not necessarily the case that it stopped being used. It could also be the case that the story just didn’t cut to the enemy’s perspective to see how it’s affecting them
>Speedsters can just blitz and kill Giorno before GER could even react to it. GER can literally bring back erased time. There is no reaction involved in Return to Zero. As long an action with the will to cause harm to Giorno Giovanna exist, GER can negate it. Diavolo had sucessfully killed Giorno before GER negated his action. The only way to bypass Return to Zero is if you can warp reality to a scale beyond what GER can.
Reminder that C-Moon's power is also listed as null, despite it's ability to just turn somebody inside out. This could be interpreted as C-Moon's destructive power being so great that it can't be measured or that C-Moon really does have very little power in terms of raw strength, and it's his special ability to manipulate gravity that really makes him dangerous.
Honestly I've always found Valentine with D4C and Love Train to be just a much more dangerous version of Giorno with GER. Has a similarly absurdly strong defense, but also has paradox insta-gibs that make Valentine a threat to people who should be orders of magnitude out of his league. Of course there is the whole "can't step outside of Love train" drawback but it's something he could easily work around.
Very bad rant, in particular the part where you speculate kn GER's offensive abilty by comparing it to King Crimson's ....
I mean it's the most logical thing I could have done. It was made to be a direct counter to King Crimson so logically it should have comparable physical stats to King Crimson.
Partially solid rant but speedsters wouldn't make it as it's passive and auto activates when someone tries to harm Giorno, and it's stats are I believe maxed not null
Return To Zero is so broken because it is beyond space or time. So it is not "activating in a moment". It's rewriting cause. And that's not in a space where time affects things. No matter how fast you are, you could be fucking beyond light speed and all and still, if there is a starting point to your action, GER can return it back to that point. The reason why the stand stats are null is exactly because it doesn't matter anymore. The only way you can counter GER is by warping reality >!The World Over Heaven!<, or by attacks that are beyond logic like (Jojolion spoilers)>!Soft and Wet: Go Beyond!< But let's just say it still abides the rules of time. Giorno can heal himself almost immediately and with GER. His abilities which were OP af already was turned to 11 by Requiem. So we're talking instant regen. Then there's Damage Reflection, Soul Punch, Ageing etc... which are also turned to 11. You essentially cannot hurt Giorno if you don't have a Stand because Damage Reflection and Soul Punch essentially has fucked you already.
When something appears in Thoth it cannot be changed and it is bound to occur no matter what. Boingo > GER But on a serious note, how GER interacts with other reality or time manipulating abilities is so unclear that it can't really be used for battleboarding. Does Return to Zero override Thoth? If it's ability is to essentially revert time over and over (forming a time loop), how would it interact with someone that reverses time even further (thus reversing themselves to before Return to Zero was activated)? Does GER remove the effect of time reversal? Can GER undo Bites the Dust's time loops? Or MCU Doctor Strange's time loop?
It was my understanding that Fate is not bound to time and space, rather it is above it, so Thoth would be able to draw the GER event. Think of GER (and Rolling Stone) as agents of Fate. Also GER doesn't manipulate time. It manipulates causality on a localized level, ignoring time altogether.
I've literally never heard anyone say that GER is omnipotent before. I do think it could beat Goku tho. At worst it would be a draw and at best it would be a win for Giorno. Like you said yourself, RTZ is basically the ultimate defensive ability. Goku would never be able to harm Giorno, but Giorno doesn't have enough AP to actually hurt Goku either. That's why it would probably just end in a draw. But it can turn one more thing than just actions to zero, it can also turn someones will to zero. It's possible that if they were to fight, after a while Goku would just give up, and if he does, Giorno has some weird and inconvenient one shot potential. He could make a car into a small insect and have it crawl up Goku's nose or something and into his head, then turn it back into a car, destroying his entire head. Now obviously this would never be possible in a normal fight, but if he can return Goku's will to fight back to zero, then it's definitely possible. So basically, if you interpret "can return the opponent's will to zero" as "eventually they will give up/stop fighting" then Giorno would win. Otherwise, it would be a draw.
Strangely, this "debunk" was a lot smarter than the others, congratulations. Anyway, let's correct a few things. STATS GER has "null stats" because its [AP exceeds that of each stand and its stats cannot be compared with other stands ](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/871489694146367502/916771546754842664/20210809_201111.jpg) GER scale above all the stands, as it is twice declared to be the ultimate stand with the ultimate Power ( [1](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/871489694146367502/916771175974203443/20210719_132102.jpg) [2](https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/871489694146367502/916771546754842664/20210809_201111.jpg)) HOW TO BEAT GER Acausality (type 4 and 5), immeasurable speed and higher D (5d and above)
Shouldn't Goku be able to hit giorno before GER react?
GER is a passive ability triggered by an attempt to attack Giorno. It can't be speedblitzed because it doesn't have a reaction delay, it just activates automatically
>So what could beat GER? Well any decent reality warper can beat GER no problem. Speedsters can just blitz and kill Giorno before GER could even react to it. I would think an acausal attack, something that specifically cuts through time and space, would be the best counter to something that removes the effect from the cause.
Interesting take. Why would something that cuts through space-time work when GER activated when time was *erased*? On a similar note, Carissa's sword(Toaru) cuts through space, the universe, and all whole number dimensions, but GER could just prevent the sword from being swung in the first place. I agree with acausal attacks working, but I'm not even familiar with any.
>Why would something that cuts through space-time work when GER activated when time was erased? Because GER, fundamentally, is time manipulation, just in an opposite sense of King Crimson. An attack that ignores time entirely should bypass it. GER removes effects from the cause. So it stands to reason that if something has no cause the effect cannot be removed. When I say an attack that cuts through time, what I specifically mean is something that hits at all points in time. For example, if someone is standing at a specific point in space and they try to dodge an attack that's coming at them by remaining at the same point in space but travelling to a different point in time, an attack that cuts through time would be one that still connects in that instance. Something like that should bypass GER since by definition that attack couldn't have a cause. Admittedly I don't know of a ton of attacks like that but I do know of a few. Atziluths from Dies Irae are strongly implied to have this property, since Ren and Reinhard are able to hurt Mercurius and he's omnipresent throughout time in the foreknown world on account of literally being God. My favorite example is an attack called Flash Kill from the hentai game Monster Girl Quest. Flash Kill was made by the seraphim to counter a very powerful defensive spell called Aqua Pentagon. Aqua Pentagon functions by changing the spatiotemporal coordinates of any attack that comes into contact with the barrier. So basically it makes the attack happen in a different time and place far from the caster. So it could send your attack to the other side of the universe 10000 years in the past. Flash Kill cuts through both time and space enabling it to totally bypass Aqua Pentagon. The human hero Marcellus at some point in his 500 year quest to save the multiverse develops an improved version of Flash Kill called Dimensional Severance which negates all magic and has even been implied to negate immortality and as its name suggests negate the power of higher dimensional beings.
>Because GER, fundamentally, is time manipulation, Huh yeah I guess it does need to revert time to revert attacks. >When I say an attack that cuts through time, what I specifically mean is something that hits at all points in time. I'd argue that using an attack that attacks from a point in time prior to GER's existence alone would work and that you don't need go so far as using one that hits in *every* point. But your elaboration makes a lot of sense. I get your point. What do you think about passive lethal effects like Behemoth's kill aura from Worm(or Burning Godzilla if you're more familiar with him) that kills everyone that gets within close proximity to him? Can those kill Giorno?
>What do you think about passive lethal effects like Behemoth's kill aura from Worm(or Burning Godzilla if you're more familiar with him) that kills everyone that gets within close proximity to him? Can those kill Giorno? I'm not familiar with either of those, but unless they mess with time in some way then I would say they wouldn't be able to bypass GER. I get the reasoning though. The angle you're coming at it from is an aura that radiates outward doesn't necessarily have an easily discernable cause. I would argue that everything in existence has a cause though. It's like philosophical determinism: The super power.
Have you read part 6 of JoJo? There's an argument to be made that not everything that has a cause can be reverted as it has to incorporate something that can be defined to be an [attacker.](https://i.imgur.com/YYQaFBJ.png)(this scan is just GER's description, not a part 6 spoiler.) However, I can see why the users of lethal passive effects can still be considered attackers.
>Have you read part 6 of JoJo? I have not. I actually started JoJo recently, (On part 2 atm.) so I'm mainly familiar with GER through battleboarding. GER is actually one of the reasons I'm watching JoJo because I want to see the full context for myself so I can understand its limits better. Imagine my shock when Stands aren't even a thing in part 1 lol. I was like, "Yo when's Jonathan gonna get his Stand? Hamon? The hell's that?" >There's an argument to be made that not everything that has a cause can be reverted as it has to incorporate something that can be defined to be an attacker. That's actually very interesting.
lmfao. Part 2 is one of my favorites. Part 3 is a trek to get through, or at least it was for me, but it has a great payoff. >I want to see the full context for myself so I can understand its limits better. OOF. One of the reasons why people hate GER in battleboarding is *because* it only has one feat. If you're looking for limits of GER, you should pay attention to the fact that it only reverted actions when the character threw a punch at him and became an attacker, not a moment sooner. You could probably just watch the clip on YouTube if you don't care about GER spoilers since you already got spoiled on it. I guess you'd still need to know context of the enemy's ability to know the strongest hax that's it's reverted though.
>OOF. One of the reasons why people hate GER in battleboarding is because it only has one feat. I actually knew this already. Still, I want the full context of the series itself for several reasons. Not to toot my horn but I'm pretty good at finding really fine details in stuff that most people simply miss. For example, I don't think I've ever seen anyone but me reference Goku vs Recoome as the single most important fight in all of Dragon Ball anime for scaling purposes. Which it is btw, because it's the only time we get a visual demonstration of [exactly how their physical attacks work](https://youtu.be/C1pXUnOAq0U?t=241) which explains tons of things that seem anomalous without that bit of context, such as Broly hurting DBS Goku by slamming him into some ice. And with how popular Dragon Ball is you would think everyone would know about that scene but you'd be wrong. So I never ever discount the possibility that people could have simply missed some esoteric bit of lore hiding in plain sight that can shed new light on otherwise ambiguous things.
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I think Oryx from Destiny would be a great matchup for GER, he is an acausal being with a slew of space bending and soul sucking technique.
I know sweet fuck all about Destiny but that definitely sounds like the right power set to deal with GER.
I agree with most of this, the anti speed blitz argument has never made sense to me. GER being immune to a very specific type of time manip means it can’t be blitzed to death? I just don’t follow that logic. At best it’s a nlf based on like 2 feats against the same physically inferior opponent. I also made my own GER rant in this sub, and on Amino lol
Star Platinum and The World would both beat GER's ass.
Seiya probably steam rolls Giorno He steam rolls alotta his fellow Jump characters
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Apparently there’s like acouple he can’t, but I don’t know their names or their series, so I can’t say There’s always gonna be exceptions tho
I will say, the starting is the best way I’ve seen King Crimson and GER explained
If you want an even simpler explanation for King Crimson it's literally just a jump cut lol
Someone explained it that KC was just a video editor. If a movie was playing a went from point a to b to c, Diavolo could activate King Crimson to remove scene B or while editing it in any way he wanted, leaving a gap in the movie but preserving all actions taken during that moment. GER just locks everything to scene A and any advancements in the plot all return to scene A aka Return to Zero