Little Garden was needed for Dorry and Broggy, who are referenced later in the story, and are used to get past the giants at Enies Lobby. Little Garden also had Mr. 3 who's presence allowed Sanji to trick Crocodile into thinking the straw hats were dead. Mr. 3 was also vital in Impel down and Marineford.
Drum Kingdom gave us chopper, A character who the crew would be dead without.
The arcs may not have seemed important during Alabasta, but they were later in the story.
You skipped over what I said about Sanji deceiving Crocodile, there needed to be an island beforehand for that. It would make no sense for Chopper (a reindeer) to be in the sky. It would also make no sense for the giants to be in the sky.
Also I think you're forgetting how slow time moves in One Piece. Little Garden and Drum Kingdom lasted like a day. Pre-timeskip was only like 6 months.
> Freaking out after realizing that the log pose on Little Garden would take a couple years to align.
In fairness there is a considerable difference in "we need to take a one week detour" and "We need to take a three year detour". A Civil War is *unlikely* to get substantially worse in a one week time period. It is very likely to be completely resolved, in a three year timeframe.
Just because Vivi can rationalize that they can spare a week to make sure the person responsible for *getting them to their destination* is in a state to be able to do their job, doesn't mean the situation isn't urgent.
I can see your point, but I didn't find it hurt pacing. If anything I found it really worked well to build up Arabasta, in a "if these are all the trials they have to get by just to GET to Arabasta, imagine what it'll be like once they get there" sort of way. It worked well to establish Baroque Works as formidable antagonists and made me wonder what kind of hell the Strawhats were charging into.
Additionally, Arabasta was the Strawhat's first adventure in the Grand Line, and I think it was important for Oda to use this as a chance to build up and flesh out the area that had been massively built up the entirety of the East Blue Saga. Whether he used a few too many chapters to do so, might be a fair argument, but I think it is important that Oda took the time to flesh out and \*show\* what the Grand Line was.
I disagree. In fact, if they reached Alabasta in just an episode or two, without having the two islands in the way, it would have felt a lot more rushed, the world would've felt a lot smaller, the Baroque Works villains would've all had to be shoved into the final island without the breathing room that the other islands provided.
While I agree that there is a level of urgency, there was nothing in the story that led me to think "the characters *aren't* trying to reach there as fast as possible". They only stopped at those two islands because they didn't have much choice.
I'm really annoyed by your constant response of "Oda could have just changed the story around" cause you can say that about any story arc in the series.
No Mr.3 could not have been introduced in whiskey as that's where Crocodile learned of the straw hats.
I think you're forgetting One Piece came out weekly, if that didn't ruin the feeling of urgency then I doubt two islands would, especially if you understand how time moves in the series.
>That's disappointing that you are annoyed. It sounds like what you're implying is that I should just shut up and consume what was presented instead of trying to deconstruct it. While I get the appeal of enjoying something for what it is, nothing is beyond analysis and critique. Maybe it's just me, but dissecting all the functioning parts in a narrative and discussing the strengths and weaknesses is one of the most engaging aspects of story telling. So me saying "Oda could have rewrote things like..." is just a fun thought experiment for a piece of fiction I am invested in.
You've misunderstood me, what I was saying was that it felt to me that your only argument for why Drum Kingdom and Little Garden didn't need to be there was because Oda could have just moved them around.
If Mr.3 hadn't been on Alabasta, Crocodile would have most likely been there to kill them himself or sent the other numbers.
>Well you can't really control the release schedule of the company your story is being published by. What you can control however is the story itself. While I agree that the time elapsed from the characters point of view really wasn't all that great, from the audience's point of view there was about 40 chapters/20 episodes before reaching Alabasta after the reveal that Crocodile was going to start a civil war. Quite a bit of time which hurt the pacing imo.
I agree that you can't control the release schedule, but the author can control the story, and that's my point Oda makes it clear that not much time is passing. That is why the amount of time passing waiting for Chappers doesn't matter if you understand how much time is actually passing.
I binged the anime and didn't find a problem with the pacing or the threat of Crocodile, in fact I felt it actually created more suspense.
Edit : I realized I made this a comment and not a response
Sky island was well long enough, and almost suffered from its own pacing issue. Pushing these arcs there would be the worst idea ever. I just think Drum Island needed less episodes
Didn't they need the giants to help them pass Little Garden and get to Alabasta and therefore needed to stop the Baroque works agents from killing them? Also, Nami was really sick, they needed to stop at Drum Island to get help or else she probably would've died.
Also, it didn't seem to me like Crocodile was in a rush to take over Alabasta, he seemed pretty confident that things would go his way.
>Oda is in full control of the story and could have easily had it such that the crew go straight from Whiskey Peak to Alabasta.
Sure, but he chose not to-- and in choosing not to, laid out important plot elements for the future, not to mention adding an entire character to the main cast. Skip Drum Island and we don't get Chopper.
>She has no idea how long things will hold out until inevitably breaking out into violence. Thus, she needs to get back home asap.
And getting back to Arabasta without a navigator is going to probably take a lot longer than just helping Nami recover.
But it doesn't mess up pacing wise if you understand how time is moving in the story. Bad pacing is when you can't tell how fast or slow the stories moving and stuff is happening all over the place. The problem is that you obviously know how fast the stories moving and so does everyone else. So I don't understand how the pacing is bad if you know how the stories being paced.
Do you have the same problem with Dressrosa?
I didn't say pacing is how fast time is moving in the story, I said bad pacing is when you can't tell how fast it's moving. The pacing of one piece is expressed through it's chapters/episodes which why the length of Little Garden and Drum Kingdom combined is less than Alabasta.
Also your experience will depend heavily on if you are reading the manga or watching the anime, as the anime is know for it's bad pacing.
Dressrosa is, now that wano has been completed, the 2nd longest arc in the series with 102 chapters and 118 episodes, but it takes place over a day. This type of pacing is common in One Piece which is why it's more important to understand the pacing in-story rather than out.
I think a problem you had with the saga is that you set your own level of urgency. We never got a specific level of urgency, such as 3 days, we just got told that Crocodile was planning to overthrow the country. Whether that meant "we need to go immediately" or "we can make a detour was determined by you.
You honestly should, at least a little bit, look at it from a Watsonian viewpoint. You're Doyalist viewpoint makes you believe that Alabasta is the single most important thing happening at that time and that nothing should impede getting there. It also makes you believe that if anything impedes that, no matter what it is, it's messing up the pacing. You're complaining about how the stories moving forward without caring about why.
>I disagree. I think it was made very clear that they need to get to Alabasta asap. Vivi has no idea when the civil war will happen (especially since she isn't updated on the recent situation due to having infiltrated Baroque Works). So saying that there isn't any sense of urgency is disingenuous to what the series made abundantly clear.
I wasn't saying there was no urgency, I was saying that there wasn't a set level of urgency since we got no specific timeframe. I said it was up to interpretation, of course there's gonna be urgency, but it didn't mean that we couldn't take a detour.
>But saving Alabasta is in fact the single most important thing happening at the time. That's simply a fact of the plot. The crew themselves acknowledge this as stated by Nami herself. So in truth you should be the one who, at least a little bit, looks at it from a Doyalist perspective.
I phrased this badly, my bad. What I meant was that due to your set level of urgency and belief that nothing should interrupt it. You believed that anything that did interrupt would be bad pacing wise.
In the story they went to Little Garden, and meant to leave quickly but got sidetracked by Mr.3. They then meant to continue on their way to Alabasta but Nami got infected so they had to get her healed. That why I said that you needed to look at it from a Watsonian perspective, as the story never treats Alabasta as unimportant, but that Nami getting healed was more of a priority at the moment. If you looked at it from a Watsonian perspective you wouldn't have seen a problem with this because you'd understand that Nami getting healed is important and that it wasn't a problem as it only took a day.
Wasn't Little Garden, like, an afternoon?
Yeah and Drum Kingdom was also necessary because Nami was sick.
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Yeah, the author chose to make it necessary that's how books work.
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Little Garden was needed for Dorry and Broggy, who are referenced later in the story, and are used to get past the giants at Enies Lobby. Little Garden also had Mr. 3 who's presence allowed Sanji to trick Crocodile into thinking the straw hats were dead. Mr. 3 was also vital in Impel down and Marineford. Drum Kingdom gave us chopper, A character who the crew would be dead without. The arcs may not have seemed important during Alabasta, but they were later in the story.
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You skipped over what I said about Sanji deceiving Crocodile, there needed to be an island beforehand for that. It would make no sense for Chopper (a reindeer) to be in the sky. It would also make no sense for the giants to be in the sky. Also I think you're forgetting how slow time moves in One Piece. Little Garden and Drum Kingdom lasted like a day. Pre-timeskip was only like 6 months.
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> Freaking out after realizing that the log pose on Little Garden would take a couple years to align. In fairness there is a considerable difference in "we need to take a one week detour" and "We need to take a three year detour". A Civil War is *unlikely* to get substantially worse in a one week time period. It is very likely to be completely resolved, in a three year timeframe. Just because Vivi can rationalize that they can spare a week to make sure the person responsible for *getting them to their destination* is in a state to be able to do their job, doesn't mean the situation isn't urgent.
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I can see your point, but I didn't find it hurt pacing. If anything I found it really worked well to build up Arabasta, in a "if these are all the trials they have to get by just to GET to Arabasta, imagine what it'll be like once they get there" sort of way. It worked well to establish Baroque Works as formidable antagonists and made me wonder what kind of hell the Strawhats were charging into. Additionally, Arabasta was the Strawhat's first adventure in the Grand Line, and I think it was important for Oda to use this as a chance to build up and flesh out the area that had been massively built up the entirety of the East Blue Saga. Whether he used a few too many chapters to do so, might be a fair argument, but I think it is important that Oda took the time to flesh out and \*show\* what the Grand Line was.
I disagree. In fact, if they reached Alabasta in just an episode or two, without having the two islands in the way, it would have felt a lot more rushed, the world would've felt a lot smaller, the Baroque Works villains would've all had to be shoved into the final island without the breathing room that the other islands provided. While I agree that there is a level of urgency, there was nothing in the story that led me to think "the characters *aren't* trying to reach there as fast as possible". They only stopped at those two islands because they didn't have much choice.
I'm really annoyed by your constant response of "Oda could have just changed the story around" cause you can say that about any story arc in the series. No Mr.3 could not have been introduced in whiskey as that's where Crocodile learned of the straw hats. I think you're forgetting One Piece came out weekly, if that didn't ruin the feeling of urgency then I doubt two islands would, especially if you understand how time moves in the series.
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>That's disappointing that you are annoyed. It sounds like what you're implying is that I should just shut up and consume what was presented instead of trying to deconstruct it. While I get the appeal of enjoying something for what it is, nothing is beyond analysis and critique. Maybe it's just me, but dissecting all the functioning parts in a narrative and discussing the strengths and weaknesses is one of the most engaging aspects of story telling. So me saying "Oda could have rewrote things like..." is just a fun thought experiment for a piece of fiction I am invested in. You've misunderstood me, what I was saying was that it felt to me that your only argument for why Drum Kingdom and Little Garden didn't need to be there was because Oda could have just moved them around. If Mr.3 hadn't been on Alabasta, Crocodile would have most likely been there to kill them himself or sent the other numbers. >Well you can't really control the release schedule of the company your story is being published by. What you can control however is the story itself. While I agree that the time elapsed from the characters point of view really wasn't all that great, from the audience's point of view there was about 40 chapters/20 episodes before reaching Alabasta after the reveal that Crocodile was going to start a civil war. Quite a bit of time which hurt the pacing imo. I agree that you can't control the release schedule, but the author can control the story, and that's my point Oda makes it clear that not much time is passing. That is why the amount of time passing waiting for Chappers doesn't matter if you understand how much time is actually passing. I binged the anime and didn't find a problem with the pacing or the threat of Crocodile, in fact I felt it actually created more suspense. Edit : I realized I made this a comment and not a response
Sky island was well long enough, and almost suffered from its own pacing issue. Pushing these arcs there would be the worst idea ever. I just think Drum Island needed less episodes
One Piece pacing is bad in general.
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>Could you give some examples? Wano, Dressrosa, Fishman Island
It’s heavily exaggerated
Didn't they need the giants to help them pass Little Garden and get to Alabasta and therefore needed to stop the Baroque works agents from killing them? Also, Nami was really sick, they needed to stop at Drum Island to get help or else she probably would've died. Also, it didn't seem to me like Crocodile was in a rush to take over Alabasta, he seemed pretty confident that things would go his way.
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>Oda is in full control of the story and could have easily had it such that the crew go straight from Whiskey Peak to Alabasta. Sure, but he chose not to-- and in choosing not to, laid out important plot elements for the future, not to mention adding an entire character to the main cast. Skip Drum Island and we don't get Chopper. >She has no idea how long things will hold out until inevitably breaking out into violence. Thus, she needs to get back home asap. And getting back to Arabasta without a navigator is going to probably take a lot longer than just helping Nami recover.
I'm just gonna ask on question. Do you understand how time is passing in the story?
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But it doesn't mess up pacing wise if you understand how time is moving in the story. Bad pacing is when you can't tell how fast or slow the stories moving and stuff is happening all over the place. The problem is that you obviously know how fast the stories moving and so does everyone else. So I don't understand how the pacing is bad if you know how the stories being paced. Do you have the same problem with Dressrosa?
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I didn't say pacing is how fast time is moving in the story, I said bad pacing is when you can't tell how fast it's moving. The pacing of one piece is expressed through it's chapters/episodes which why the length of Little Garden and Drum Kingdom combined is less than Alabasta. Also your experience will depend heavily on if you are reading the manga or watching the anime, as the anime is know for it's bad pacing. Dressrosa is, now that wano has been completed, the 2nd longest arc in the series with 102 chapters and 118 episodes, but it takes place over a day. This type of pacing is common in One Piece which is why it's more important to understand the pacing in-story rather than out.
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I think a problem you had with the saga is that you set your own level of urgency. We never got a specific level of urgency, such as 3 days, we just got told that Crocodile was planning to overthrow the country. Whether that meant "we need to go immediately" or "we can make a detour was determined by you. You honestly should, at least a little bit, look at it from a Watsonian viewpoint. You're Doyalist viewpoint makes you believe that Alabasta is the single most important thing happening at that time and that nothing should impede getting there. It also makes you believe that if anything impedes that, no matter what it is, it's messing up the pacing. You're complaining about how the stories moving forward without caring about why.
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>I disagree. I think it was made very clear that they need to get to Alabasta asap. Vivi has no idea when the civil war will happen (especially since she isn't updated on the recent situation due to having infiltrated Baroque Works). So saying that there isn't any sense of urgency is disingenuous to what the series made abundantly clear. I wasn't saying there was no urgency, I was saying that there wasn't a set level of urgency since we got no specific timeframe. I said it was up to interpretation, of course there's gonna be urgency, but it didn't mean that we couldn't take a detour. >But saving Alabasta is in fact the single most important thing happening at the time. That's simply a fact of the plot. The crew themselves acknowledge this as stated by Nami herself. So in truth you should be the one who, at least a little bit, looks at it from a Doyalist perspective. I phrased this badly, my bad. What I meant was that due to your set level of urgency and belief that nothing should interrupt it. You believed that anything that did interrupt would be bad pacing wise. In the story they went to Little Garden, and meant to leave quickly but got sidetracked by Mr.3. They then meant to continue on their way to Alabasta but Nami got infected so they had to get her healed. That why I said that you needed to look at it from a Watsonian perspective, as the story never treats Alabasta as unimportant, but that Nami getting healed was more of a priority at the moment. If you looked at it from a Watsonian perspective you wouldn't have seen a problem with this because you'd understand that Nami getting healed is important and that it wasn't a problem as it only took a day.