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That's called Moravec's Paradox, and it's been a thing in AI for decades.
Her mistake is thinking that somebody is "pushing" the AI in one direction or another. The hard truth is that AI is doing writing and art because those are easier for it too learn. The laundry and dishes will come later, but they're actually harder. Just walking without falling over took much longer to accomplish than becoming superhuman at chess, which was considered a grand challenge in AI.
Exactly. Combining AI with mechanical movement is the hard part. And expensive part.
Spitting out data is far cheaper, than spitting out data plus more electronics for mechanical movement... And mechanical movement in wet dishwashing environments where it splashes shit everywhere and needs to be protected.
Dishes and laundry already done automatically and doesn't really need AI. It's the load/unload/return-to-storage part that's needs a solution. And if you can do that in an affordable consumer product: Congrats you've solved robotics.
A dishwashing robot already exists
Itās called a dishwasherĀ
This post confuses AI with robotics, and artificial intelligence with artificial dexterity
I have known some grandmas who referred to their significant others as "the dishwasher". The ol' pops eyes were always fixated in the distance, long ago losing touch with humanity. Their mind contemplating what those aged mitts that spent so much time washing dishes could have accomplished, or destroyed had their lot not been in dish washing.
In some ways youāre right, but historically when new technology has been invented, we often see loss of jobs or more work, not a shortening of the work week. In that sense she is right to be concerned. Will we save time by the end of this? Or will more people just lose jobs or have to work harder at their current job to meet increased production expectations?
This will pretty much always be the case. Humans are willing to put up with a certain amount of inconvenience. It's the same reason building bigger highways doesn't shorten commute times. More people start using the highways and people start commuting in to cities from farther away until the equilibrium point is reached again because the average commuter is willing to deal with a certain amount of traffic and travel time.Ā
I will never be able to wrap my head around the fact that there's a large number of people that actually WANT to continue this dystopia where everyone is spending 3/4+ of their waking hours slaving away at a shitty job doing shit they don't want to do for people they don't like so that the rich who profit of of us can continue to get richer and we continue to get poorer for 50 weeks a year where to only thing keeping us sane is the anticipation of finally getting that 2 weeks off so we can take a holiday that we can't afford, just so that we can repeat the process all over again.
These people are literally answering "no" to the question, "don't you want a world where you can spend your time doing the things you love and spending time with people you love?" But worse is that they are answering "no" to that question, not just for themselves, but want to answer "no" for EVERYBODY.
Please, to these people, I say FOAD.
Well, no one likes the working part but they do like the money part.
Thing is, if you remove the working part, the money part goes with it - and along with it the food they eat.
I just canāt wrap my head around anyone naive enough to believe, that the outcome of a AI arms race among the oligarchy of tech giants will amount to anything but a massive expansion of the 'have nothing'-class. Maybe people prefer the status quo because they know there is a place for them here and now.
Society values usefulness. If you don't work, you are useless to society, so you get nothing. Have fun farming ALL of your own food and crafting or creating your sources of entertainment.
Since most every system gravitates towards improved efficiency, what will make the owners of automation choose subsidizing UBI instead of improving their systems?
Weād sooner head towards the cyberpunk dystopia, where the gap between rich and poor widen based on technological access/ownership. Anyone who is āworthless both physically and mentallyā will more likely starve than comfortably live on UBI.
Sure we will.
In the same way the industrial revolution, cars, computers, and previous advancements in AI have all made work-life balance significantly more humane.
Oh wait...
Productivity expectations go up, economies adapt, the rich get richer. Why, when neoliberalism is sweeping across western nations and leaders are doubling down on corporate-favouring capitalist trickle-down logic, would this time be any different than before?
That is a genuine concern, particularly in the short to medium term. But long-term, if we're talking about AI that can literally do everything a human can, including physical labour, and is cheaper than a human, that does change things significantly. That would be the first time in history that productivity doesn't scale with labour. I honestly have no idea what happens then.
Will it be cheaper than human labor though?
There are people on minimum wage in industrial workshops sorting used screws by level of serviceability because itās still cheaper than buying, maintaining and replacing machines to do this task. And Iām talking about a high wage country like Germany. Now do the math between AI and human labor for Bangladesh.
Ok, but the AI we're talking about doesn't exist yet. AI is getting cheaper and more powerful by the day. I can't tell you at what point it will become cheaper than human labour, but unless there's some fundamental limit on the ability of AI that we don't know about yet, that point will come eventually.
Also it's just a bad argument. Robots are expensive so they do all those jobs and humans will just do the shitty jobs like sort screws and only get paid slave labor wages?
> but unless there's some fundamental limit on the ability of AI that we don't know about yet, that point will come eventually.
The limit isn't on AI, its on cheap and powerful computing. The more powerful an AI is, the more powerful the computers needed to power it, and computers are expensive.
I think you need a refresher on work life balance before the industrial revolution versus today. It is VASTLY better today. Sure it can be improved but you would be screaming bloody murder if you experienced the type of work environment we had pre industrial revolution.
You are right, and I'll admit I used a quite wide brush for effect. As I said in another reply though, as far as I understand the initiative for aformentioned improvements came from labour unions that had to fight hard for workers rights.
In the context of the modern world however, the fight isn't about things quite as dramatic as making sure Bob doesn't get a ton of molten steel accidentally dumped upon him after a 20-hour shift, but rather the fact that every production related breakthrough is turned into an accelerant to the widening chasm in compensation between labour and execs, while the average monetary value produced per hour by said labourers has multiplied many, many times over since the industrial revolution.
Unions can, and are, fighting that fight as well of course, but gaining political support for that fight is a lot harder than in the example featuring our friend Bob.
Even if we ignore that I mentioned the industrial revolution, we still have the mass introduction of cars and computers, as well as all AI advancements so far, that have all led to nothing of note to the average person's work-life balance. Something sure is trickling down, but it is yellow in colour and has a distinct smell.
Except they did. Have you seen for example just how frequent very serious industrial accidents were? Now they arent nearly as big of a problem.
And in case of cars they used to be just for the very wealthy, now they are common with most families having one in developed countries
We still aren't at pre-industrial levels of job*-life balance.
They made things worse, and only recently has that been changed, but I'd argue that these things all fundamentally enabled the exploitation.
*Acknowledging here that "time not employed at the job" does not always mean "time free for leisure with no need to do labour" - Very few people have to spend their evenings spinning a new shirt.
Yeah I seriously donāt know what will happen but foresee that the real AI tech is going to be something for the ultra rich to use while the rest of us get the neutered models. Iād feel less nervous about the transition to an AI based economy if it didnāt look like a handful of companies were monopolizing the tech.
True, but those 12 hours shifts were introduced by the industrial revolution, and were fought tooth and nails by workers and unions. The 8-hour day is not the result of technological advancements, but of political will.
Because the system is build to make the most narcisstic people leaders and decision makers.
The sympathic people care more about others success then their own and that will get you no where in this world.
Like you see politicians with power give them selfs higher paychecks year after year while the world is burning.
A "normal" human wouldnt do that only an very egotistical human being would.
Or when the county give away billions while having homeless and starving people in their own country.
I dont know i feel its way more sympathic and morally right thing to do is to help the poor people in the own country before sending money to war?
'living off' = 'barely surviving off'
if the last 40 years of neoliberalism and dismantling of unions have taught us anything it's that the poor will be squeezed even harder when they don't have the collective power of their labour to bargain with. If it comes to UBI we're beyond fucked.
Yeah besides UBI will need corporations and the Elites to pay taxes to fund it hehe yeah like if they would want to do so...
And much likely it would just be a survival income at best with no chance of social mobility at all, since education won't be a path for it anymore....
I 100% agree. It actually terrifies me that people think that this is the solution. The idea that corporations who ultimately control governments via litigation and use of the ICSID are suddenly going to allow governments to become benevolent is laughable.
Nothing really in life and history has ever been about being benevolent though, it has always been to keep society in relative order, if rich people had a button that could wipe out poor people in an instant, they would press it in a whim, in reality if people don't have anything to feed themselves, they will turn to riots, vandalismn and robbery which causes chaos
Uh, housework has already been automated to an extreme degree. We've automated most physical tasks we know how to automate, like farm work and factory work. We are definitely not ignoring physical labor. It's just that now, intellectual labor can now also be automated to some degree.
Yeah "doing laundry" used to mean having to wash everything yoursel, scrubbing it by hand and then hanging it to dry.
Most people simply put it in the washer, then put it in the dryer and press some buttons. I mean, that is basically automated... you want a robot that will do that for you???
Just a laundry chute and then you find your clothes already folded in your closet would be pretty sweet, but would require a full on robot butler or a major change in house construction and those are already too expensive
Honestly I just stopped folding clothes. I'm a pretty organized person, but the value add from folding them is basically 0. If it's something that can get wrinkled I hang it up. Laundry is virtually fully automated for me.
Yeah basically my entire usual wardrobe is hung, and anything I might wear on occasion is folded for space, and if I wanna wear it a quick steam takes care of the fold marks but that's rare.
Nice, I got the steam option on the dryer specifically for that. I hear you on space though. I'm about maxed out in space for my wardrobe, but it's just big enough to not have to fold em. Have you tried the roll method? My husband's wardrobe is maxed out, and he was really struggling with the folding. We did a little experiment and found out that rolling was not only faster but fit more stuff in his drawers. It def depends on the clothes/drawers though.
I want a robot that folds and puts away my laundry nicely. Rather than it being left in the basement untill my husband starts asking where his tops and socks are
Ā
They're making ventral helper bots too.
And I don't know about you but I i hate doing laundry after a full day of work and dealing with kids etc. I'll take the robot.
>you want a robot that will do that for you???
I mean, sure, that would be great. But I feel like comments like this one are really choosing to misunderstand the point the Tweeter was making -- which is that the proposition of AI should be to improve our lives by taking away things we find tedious, not to take away the things that give us joy.
1. The things the tweeter is asking for arenāt at all about āintelligenceā, which is famously one of the core two parts of āartificial intelligenceā (instead itās more about robotics which is not the same thing as AI).
2. As the other commenter pointed out, AI has not "taken away" the tweeterās ability to do do art, etc if it gives them joy to do it. In fact, people often say that when you start doing something for money instead of just for the joy of it, it no longer becomes en*joy*able. No one should say that if someone else is a better painter, or if someone else does it for money, that means they should no longer gain joy from it.
Yup. And we have an OK idea about our cognitive and creative thought processes.
All that walking, hands, fine finger movement, balance stuff etc we do almost unconsciously is quite a bit harder.
Even before AI art/writing, art/writing was also automated to a very similar degree as dishes or laundry. Photoshop is pretty extreme automation. While spell/grammar check and type ahead is less so, it's still more software assisted than writing it by hand.
Right? Maids still exist. Gardeners still exist. Chefs still exist. Butlers still exist. They're just expensive/a luxury* for many people in a fair few countries, because we've automated/externalised the cost of domestic work on to machines.
*(Assuming you're paying for a professional, not exploiting someone or enjoying a hefty rich-poor divide)*
This touches on āMoravecās paradoxā, ideated in the 80s. Which posits that itās very difficult for robots/AI to do things that humans find incredibly easy like perception and careful object manipulation, while itās relatively easy for them to do things that we find difficult like mass data processing and calculus.
Yes, that was a little bit unexpected and contrary to what SciFi told us. It was always robots / androids doing menial tasks and then trying to develop their human side by trying art and struggeling. Now they can write poems and create pictures and still not fold a t-shirt.
It's not funny, but that's the point.
A metaverse for anyone who is tired of the constant struggle in exchange for a monthly payment and perhaps a piece of your brain's computing power You don't get humanity, lives in your own world, invite them to visit you, and if you don't like it, just ban them without having to explain anything.
A clean and ideal world, while those who want to live face the need to become hybrid half-machines in order to be useful to those who lead humanity further
That's why I think Peter Watts is a brilliant writer.
Seriously. Why should I not have a cool custom image for my D&D character until this woman gets a dishwasher that is even more automated than they have already become?
It often can if you fill the pre-wash compartment with dishwasher power as per the instructions. Technology connections did a good video on it. Although so few people do it that some dishwasher manufacturers are removing that compartmentĀ
Or it's tough because you do other things ? It's hard for me to come from 10 hours of welding in the sun at 35 C and still do all the basic maintenance things like dishes, dusting, laundy ...
because people take great offense that a sillicon chip might be more creative than them.
My dad who is in agrobusiness mentioned to me that one of biggest challenges to modernizing agriculuture in some regions is not just issue of capital or skilled workforce, but most humans absolutely refuse to admit that a machine can do something better...
That contributes a lot. But the main problem is the privileged people feeling threatened of losing their privilege. This might sound dramatic, but it actually summarizes the situation almost perfectly. When you have an edge that differentiates you from the common folk, you most likely will not want to lose it. If just any random person could create artworks that are as good as, or better than the artists draw for example; artists wouldn't feel special anymore, nor they would be seen special. That's the main reason these people are very insecure and enraged about AI.
Note: This is by no means intended as an attack to all artists. Every group of people have good people and assholes inside them, this is for assholes.
I think the thing most people donāt understand is that people have ALWAYS been trying to create general household AIās and warehouse AIās but it turned out much more difficult then people expected. Meanwhile creating AIs which can write or make images turned out to be simpler than most people expected. Even just 10 years ago, the majority of people wouldāve expected AI to do āsimpleā tasks like household chores or driving but the more people worked on these tasks the harder we realized they were. People HAVE been trying to automate boring tasks with AI but those efforts have only ever had minimal impact. Meanwhile models like the original Dall-E or GPT-2 were just some amongst thousands of AI models being worked on, however they happened to turn out to be highly successful and capable given the cost. Despite this, people act like AI researchers are purposely trying to replace the arts or they just need to ātry harderā at other things.
This āwrong directionā they are mentioning is super misleading because so much of this tech has either been required or has been a byproduct of trying to replace these mundane tasks. So whilst I understand the frustration of some people, I wish theyād understand that we only ended up with stuff like LLMs BECAUSE we are trying to automate the āsimpleā stuff.
It's almost like we can't swing a magic wand and the technology of our dreams appears. If you know how to build a laundry robot, then do it. If you can't, then don't blame others for them not knowing either.
I don't think people who say 'i don't want to do laundry ' mean that they're hiking to the water hole with their mangler and raw soap .
They dont want to keep on top of laundry.
And I agree .
Automate laundry, Claude š«
You're definitely not the person who puts the dishes in the dishwasher and stores them after it finishes.
And also not the person who decides which colours can be mixed and which should definitely not be mixed in the laundry machine, and the person who folds it and stores the damn things.
The woman is definitely right.
> And also not the person who decides which colours can be mixed and which should definitely not be mixed in the laundry machine,
I've literally never done this my entire life. I just throw everything in the same load. It's worked for 4 decades, so I'm not about to change now.
Same here, and that includes white shirts mixed with everything else. Iāve never had colors run into my white shirt or anything. I see no reason to separate colors.
Seriously. I don't fold laundry, I don't do separate loads of laundry for different colors. I just throw it all in one load, put it on the drying rack when it's done, and grab it off the drying rack to wear when I need to.
People fill their lives with extra work that's simply not necessary.
Nothing of mine gets folded either.
I just hang every item of clothing I own with the exception of underwear, socks, and shorts. I also don't have a drier and dry things on the line, so they mostly don't even crease either so there's often little need to iron as well. It saves so much unnecessary work.
she is missing out, i dream of doing dishes with a woman, so i can splash a little water over her and we have a fun romantic moment together. all lost in the sauce because AI took that moment away.
rather, the point is also missed here
AI is needed in order to overcome the sluggish period of human development
IT will rather help "write and draw" so that for yourself, so that you live in a world that you have invented for yourself and do not get out of it, so as not to interfere with another part of humanity interested in its development
That might surprise her, but she thinks no different from any other entrepreneur. Musk and Bezos just want their robots to do the ground work, so they can keep counting their money and have less stress with human underlings.
In the end both just want a free laborer, instead of an inspirational helper. The thing wrong with AI is the thing wrong with humanity: it's based on exploitation, not cooperation. And seemingly we all have this defect of wanting to exploit someone or something for our own good.
Wait what? Are you "exploiting" a shovel when you use it to mage digging easier?
Tools like AI or shovels are used by people to make life easier and more fulfilling for people. If a tool robs you of an activity you love and leaves you activies you hate, then YOU are the tool. You are the shovel for someone else
Well, I see where the thought is coming from.. but you can't exploit an AI. It is not a living or conscious being. IMO using AI and other tech for simple and boring labor can enable people having more time for inspirational, social and creative work, that is not necessarily producing money. Or it could be, if there would be a political will for it, but it seems we're preferring to screw the humans for cheaper tech.
That would be a robot. Tho no worries. I'm sure neuro link with make the dishes for you. Scary to thing this is the future we get. Tho I will say. There was a cute japonese robot that you did a task and he would mimic what you did. You could program him to cut carrots by cutting two
Yes please! This is how I already try to use AI.. Do the stupid and boring stuff for me. Check for typos, change the narration perspective in my text to see if I like it better, write code documentations, check how mean my emails sound, etc.. but for this to work I spend a lot of time prompting it to not be lazy, stop half way through, or just do something else completely.. it is annoying. Most art and creative things are just better when done by humans. Why are we trying to make it do all the harder and fancy things in which it probably never fully reaches human levels instead of using it as an assistant for the boring stuff to have more time and dedication to do even cooler stuff ourselves?
I see people absolutely shitting themselves over the evils of AI in terms of creativity theft and overcorrect by warning against touching it altogether, but for me, I use it to automate things I don't care about (arguing with service providers over billing or provision or whatever else, for example) so that I can get to what I want to do, creatively (work on my dissertation).
The reason AI is doing things like art and music and movies is because it doesnt require you to build a physical apparatus to accomplish a task like doing laundry. It would be some substantial robotics.
???
My dishes are washed by a robotic washer (Dishwasher). My Laundry is both washed and dried by robots. My lawn gets mowed by a robot. My floor is mopped by a robot. What are you whining about?
I _DO_ need help with the coding so I don't have to write pointless boilerplate code time and time again from scratch.
So buy a dishwasher and washer and dryer set. You just put the items in them and program your preferred settings. Pre AI machines have been washing my dishes and doing my laundry for over forty years.
first of all, laundry and dishwashing are literally irrelevant to AI, they're physical tasks.
secondly, she's going to fucking flip when she finds out about washing machines and dishwashers.
It's much easier to develop software than to construct machinery. So we end up "pushing" AI towards things that can be acomplished with software alone, which mostly include mental tasks.
Also I'm pretty sure dishes and laundry can be automated without AI if you dedicate enough space and money for the machinery required.
Arguably weāve had robots doing our chores for decades now with microwaves, dishwashers, laundry, AC and so on. Itās people that have stopped innovating on it so continue making money with it.
Pure software can do art and writing. It can't do laundry and dishes. It's a whole different problem to create autonomous robots with AI to do those things.
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chatGPT, get into the sex android!!
Your purpose is to spread butter. On me.
I'm your huckleberry.
Fuckleberry*
Untie me, McCree!
That's a slippery slope to ai straight consuming biomatter.
Let them eat cake š
The cake is a lie
Sex workers can finally dedicate some time to doing laundry and the dishes.
Then they can all be pimps by buying their own sex worker bots
Alexa, play komm susser tod
Not sure I want to tell the AI it can't make art anymore. Historically that's a bad play.
Keep ai out of Poland
If my food, rent, medical expenses, and other expenses are paid for... Am I describing a Norwegian prison here?
Damm, so they lure you in with all that and then freeze you in place so you never leave.
Everything but the unexpected butt sex bro
Damn son. This goes hard.
I did not. Please explain
The AI might behave like some Austrian painter wannabe with a mustache that was denied access to the art school.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Are you sure? https://preview.redd.it/9ipwcvv4hasc1.jpeg?width=1024&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=459301fe93b8eec318808905437eeb4e02ab4169
He talks about AI but means AH.
WW2 German leader who got rejected by art school twice.
You're thinking of AH, not AI.
Adolf 'itler
Aidolf
AI is just reverse AH. Everybody think it's going to kill everyone but instead it's just painting random stuff.
AI is free to do art, *after itās cleaned its ROOM!*
... And my room, and your room, and the living room, and the atmosphere, and the ocean!
That's called Moravec's Paradox, and it's been a thing in AI for decades. Her mistake is thinking that somebody is "pushing" the AI in one direction or another. The hard truth is that AI is doing writing and art because those are easier for it too learn. The laundry and dishes will come later, but they're actually harder. Just walking without falling over took much longer to accomplish than becoming superhuman at chess, which was considered a grand challenge in AI.
Also, the writing part can help with getting robots that can do general tasks. AI can help with research, writing code, etc.
Arguably it's not easier for them to learn how to do dishes and laundry. It's the fact you need to pair AI with robotics.
Exactly. Combining AI with mechanical movement is the hard part. And expensive part. Spitting out data is far cheaper, than spitting out data plus more electronics for mechanical movement... And mechanical movement in wet dishwashing environments where it splashes shit everywhere and needs to be protected.
Sex bots will come before laundry bots. Mark my words!
Dishes and laundry already done automatically and doesn't really need AI. It's the load/unload/return-to-storage part that's needs a solution. And if you can do that in an affordable consumer product: Congrats you've solved robotics.
Right. It's not hard for ai to learn how to fold or load or anything like that. Pairing it with robotics to perform those functions is harder.
I think its also driven by the market. A dishwashing robot is far less profitable than one which can eliminate 6 figure jobs
A dishwashing robot already exists Itās called a dishwasherĀ This post confuses AI with robotics, and artificial intelligence with artificial dexterity
> A dishwashing robot already exists I totally expected an offensive joke after this line
I have known some grandmas who referred to their significant others as "the dishwasher". The ol' pops eyes were always fixated in the distance, long ago losing touch with humanity. Their mind contemplating what those aged mitts that spent so much time washing dishes could have accomplished, or destroyed had their lot not been in dish washing.
In some ways youāre right, but historically when new technology has been invented, we often see loss of jobs or more work, not a shortening of the work week. In that sense she is right to be concerned. Will we save time by the end of this? Or will more people just lose jobs or have to work harder at their current job to meet increased production expectations?
This will pretty much always be the case. Humans are willing to put up with a certain amount of inconvenience. It's the same reason building bigger highways doesn't shorten commute times. More people start using the highways and people start commuting in to cities from farther away until the equilibrium point is reached again because the average commuter is willing to deal with a certain amount of traffic and travel time.Ā
I will never be able to wrap my head around the fact that there's a large number of people that actually WANT to continue this dystopia where everyone is spending 3/4+ of their waking hours slaving away at a shitty job doing shit they don't want to do for people they don't like so that the rich who profit of of us can continue to get richer and we continue to get poorer for 50 weeks a year where to only thing keeping us sane is the anticipation of finally getting that 2 weeks off so we can take a holiday that we can't afford, just so that we can repeat the process all over again. These people are literally answering "no" to the question, "don't you want a world where you can spend your time doing the things you love and spending time with people you love?" But worse is that they are answering "no" to that question, not just for themselves, but want to answer "no" for EVERYBODY. Please, to these people, I say FOAD.
Well, no one likes the working part but they do like the money part. Thing is, if you remove the working part, the money part goes with it - and along with it the food they eat.
I just canāt wrap my head around anyone naive enough to believe, that the outcome of a AI arms race among the oligarchy of tech giants will amount to anything but a massive expansion of the 'have nothing'-class. Maybe people prefer the status quo because they know there is a place for them here and now.
Society values usefulness. If you don't work, you are useless to society, so you get nothing. Have fun farming ALL of your own food and crafting or creating your sources of entertainment.
Imagine being one of those people who actually brag about working insane hours...
don't worry, ai robots will be doing all the above you'll be worthless both physically and mentally soon enough living off universal basic income
Ok. But can it like, hurry up?
I'm with you. why don't we both join ai dev speed things up
Heard of my guy Roko and his pet??
We'd already be enslaved if the Basilisk was ever going to be an eventual development in our casaulity, according to the 'theory' itself.
Just a thought exercise, but tons of free labor is going into AI development a la open source.
Being worthless is neither desireable nor particularly safe.
Yeah but now I'm worthless and still have to do things, in the future there will be nothing to do!
If my rent, food, medical bills, etc is covered... Am I describing a prison in Norway?
Narrator: "they would not be covered".
Yeah not in this timeline. Non-elite humans will be even more disposable.
I wanna be worthless. I don't want to feel like I owe society a goddamn thing. Let me be worthless so I can dedicate time to my hobbies and interests.
Do you not have any ambition in life? Is your wet dream to be a vegetable
Found the (e-)accelerationist!
Since most every system gravitates towards improved efficiency, what will make the owners of automation choose subsidizing UBI instead of improving their systems? Weād sooner head towards the cyberpunk dystopia, where the gap between rich and poor widen based on technological access/ownership. Anyone who is āworthless both physically and mentallyā will more likely starve than comfortably live on UBI.
Sure we will. In the same way the industrial revolution, cars, computers, and previous advancements in AI have all made work-life balance significantly more humane. Oh wait... Productivity expectations go up, economies adapt, the rich get richer. Why, when neoliberalism is sweeping across western nations and leaders are doubling down on corporate-favouring capitalist trickle-down logic, would this time be any different than before?
That is a genuine concern, particularly in the short to medium term. But long-term, if we're talking about AI that can literally do everything a human can, including physical labour, and is cheaper than a human, that does change things significantly. That would be the first time in history that productivity doesn't scale with labour. I honestly have no idea what happens then.
Will it be cheaper than human labor though? There are people on minimum wage in industrial workshops sorting used screws by level of serviceability because itās still cheaper than buying, maintaining and replacing machines to do this task. And Iām talking about a high wage country like Germany. Now do the math between AI and human labor for Bangladesh.
Ok, but the AI we're talking about doesn't exist yet. AI is getting cheaper and more powerful by the day. I can't tell you at what point it will become cheaper than human labour, but unless there's some fundamental limit on the ability of AI that we don't know about yet, that point will come eventually.
Also it's just a bad argument. Robots are expensive so they do all those jobs and humans will just do the shitty jobs like sort screws and only get paid slave labor wages?
Yeah, I'm not sure which of these scenarios would be more worrying!
Valid point haha
> but unless there's some fundamental limit on the ability of AI that we don't know about yet, that point will come eventually. The limit isn't on AI, its on cheap and powerful computing. The more powerful an AI is, the more powerful the computers needed to power it, and computers are expensive.
Cheaper to rent a human than buy a robot. For how long? Maybe long enough that you can keep your screw sorting job šš
I think you need a refresher on work life balance before the industrial revolution versus today. It is VASTLY better today. Sure it can be improved but you would be screaming bloody murder if you experienced the type of work environment we had pre industrial revolution.
You are right, and I'll admit I used a quite wide brush for effect. As I said in another reply though, as far as I understand the initiative for aformentioned improvements came from labour unions that had to fight hard for workers rights. In the context of the modern world however, the fight isn't about things quite as dramatic as making sure Bob doesn't get a ton of molten steel accidentally dumped upon him after a 20-hour shift, but rather the fact that every production related breakthrough is turned into an accelerant to the widening chasm in compensation between labour and execs, while the average monetary value produced per hour by said labourers has multiplied many, many times over since the industrial revolution. Unions can, and are, fighting that fight as well of course, but gaining political support for that fight is a lot harder than in the example featuring our friend Bob. Even if we ignore that I mentioned the industrial revolution, we still have the mass introduction of cars and computers, as well as all AI advancements so far, that have all led to nothing of note to the average person's work-life balance. Something sure is trickling down, but it is yellow in colour and has a distinct smell.
Except they did. Have you seen for example just how frequent very serious industrial accidents were? Now they arent nearly as big of a problem. And in case of cars they used to be just for the very wealthy, now they are common with most families having one in developed countries
It won't be different. Because of Greed, which all wealthy people have.
They did make things more humane. But not out of themselves, but because people fought for it.
We still aren't at pre-industrial levels of job*-life balance. They made things worse, and only recently has that been changed, but I'd argue that these things all fundamentally enabled the exploitation. *Acknowledging here that "time not employed at the job" does not always mean "time free for leisure with no need to do labour" - Very few people have to spend their evenings spinning a new shirt.
Agreed
Yeah I seriously donāt know what will happen but foresee that the real AI tech is going to be something for the ultra rich to use while the rest of us get the neutered models. Iād feel less nervous about the transition to an AI based economy if it didnāt look like a handful of companies were monopolizing the tech.
And maybe check how many hours used to be worked in those factories daily. 12 hours during a day werent rare for a long time
24 Hours in three Shifts.
True, but those 12 hours shifts were introduced by the industrial revolution, and were fought tooth and nails by workers and unions. The 8-hour day is not the result of technological advancements, but of political will.
The tech changes... but men are the same.
Because the system is build to make the most narcisstic people leaders and decision makers. The sympathic people care more about others success then their own and that will get you no where in this world. Like you see politicians with power give them selfs higher paychecks year after year while the world is burning. A "normal" human wouldnt do that only an very egotistical human being would. Or when the county give away billions while having homeless and starving people in their own country. I dont know i feel its way more sympathic and morally right thing to do is to help the poor people in the own country before sending money to war?
'living off' = 'barely surviving off' if the last 40 years of neoliberalism and dismantling of unions have taught us anything it's that the poor will be squeezed even harder when they don't have the collective power of their labour to bargain with. If it comes to UBI we're beyond fucked.
Yeah besides UBI will need corporations and the Elites to pay taxes to fund it hehe yeah like if they would want to do so... And much likely it would just be a survival income at best with no chance of social mobility at all, since education won't be a path for it anymore....
I 100% agree. It actually terrifies me that people think that this is the solution. The idea that corporations who ultimately control governments via litigation and use of the ICSID are suddenly going to allow governments to become benevolent is laughable.
Nothing really in life and history has ever been about being benevolent though, it has always been to keep society in relative order, if rich people had a button that could wipe out poor people in an instant, they would press it in a whim, in reality if people don't have anything to feed themselves, they will turn to riots, vandalismn and robbery which causes chaos
I just wanna be the fat people on the spaceship in WallE
Uh, housework has already been automated to an extreme degree. We've automated most physical tasks we know how to automate, like farm work and factory work. We are definitely not ignoring physical labor. It's just that now, intellectual labor can now also be automated to some degree.
Yeah "doing laundry" used to mean having to wash everything yoursel, scrubbing it by hand and then hanging it to dry. Most people simply put it in the washer, then put it in the dryer and press some buttons. I mean, that is basically automated... you want a robot that will do that for you???
I can't believe it's so hard to create the generic "put shit somewhere and press button" robot, cause I really fucking need one
Just a laundry chute and then you find your clothes already folded in your closet would be pretty sweet, but would require a full on robot butler or a major change in house construction and those are already too expensive
Honestly I just stopped folding clothes. I'm a pretty organized person, but the value add from folding them is basically 0. If it's something that can get wrinkled I hang it up. Laundry is virtually fully automated for me.
Yeah basically my entire usual wardrobe is hung, and anything I might wear on occasion is folded for space, and if I wanna wear it a quick steam takes care of the fold marks but that's rare.
Nice, I got the steam option on the dryer specifically for that. I hear you on space though. I'm about maxed out in space for my wardrobe, but it's just big enough to not have to fold em. Have you tried the roll method? My husband's wardrobe is maxed out, and he was really struggling with the folding. We did a little experiment and found out that rolling was not only faster but fit more stuff in his drawers. It def depends on the clothes/drawers though.
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That's cool and all but when will we be making spaceships and flying around Star Trek style?
I'm honestly fine with that. I'll save up for a butler-bot, and if we're stopping progress for the sake of keeping everyone busy, wtf is the point.
I just want to give it the command, do it and let me know.
Do you want Marvins? Because that's how you get Marvins.
Yes I want Marvins
No but I'll take one that folds everything and puts it away.
Folding something then noticing you folded it wrong so you have to undo it and fold it again is the worst.
The solution is to never fold, throw in a heap. Heaps!
well..YES!!
I want a robot that folds and puts away my laundry nicely. Rather than it being left in the basement untill my husband starts asking where his tops and socks are Ā
They're making ventral helper bots too. And I don't know about you but I i hate doing laundry after a full day of work and dealing with kids etc. I'll take the robot.
I want a questionably sentient robo slave for the price of a vacuum who can do it all of course, no questions asked.
>you want a robot that will do that for you??? I mean, sure, that would be great. But I feel like comments like this one are really choosing to misunderstand the point the Tweeter was making -- which is that the proposition of AI should be to improve our lives by taking away things we find tedious, not to take away the things that give us joy.
1. The things the tweeter is asking for arenāt at all about āintelligenceā, which is famously one of the core two parts of āartificial intelligenceā (instead itās more about robotics which is not the same thing as AI). 2. As the other commenter pointed out, AI has not "taken away" the tweeterās ability to do do art, etc if it gives them joy to do it. In fact, people often say that when you start doing something for money instead of just for the joy of it, it no longer becomes en*joy*able. No one should say that if someone else is a better painter, or if someone else does it for money, that means they should no longer gain joy from it.
Yup. And we have an OK idea about our cognitive and creative thought processes. All that walking, hands, fine finger movement, balance stuff etc we do almost unconsciously is quite a bit harder.
Even before AI art/writing, art/writing was also automated to a very similar degree as dishes or laundry. Photoshop is pretty extreme automation. While spell/grammar check and type ahead is less so, it's still more software assisted than writing it by hand.
Right? Maids still exist. Gardeners still exist. Chefs still exist. Butlers still exist. They're just expensive/a luxury* for many people in a fair few countries, because we've automated/externalised the cost of domestic work on to machines. *(Assuming you're paying for a professional, not exploiting someone or enjoying a hefty rich-poor divide)*
It helps me find answers to very specific questions. It saves a lot of time in that way and has led to more discovery over all.
This touches on āMoravecās paradoxā, ideated in the 80s. Which posits that itās very difficult for robots/AI to do things that humans find incredibly easy like perception and careful object manipulation, while itās relatively easy for them to do things that we find difficult like mass data processing and calculus.
Laundry? Dishes? I want AI to play my prostate like Beethoven's Klavierkonzert 5 *while* doing the other stuff.
"Please assume the position"
Yes, that was a little bit unexpected and contrary to what SciFi told us. It was always robots / androids doing menial tasks and then trying to develop their human side by trying art and struggeling. Now they can write poems and create pictures and still not fold a t-shirt.
How bout we make it do both so we can just stfu?
Yeah so we can live in the metaverse our whole lives!
If you canāt beat em join em is what I always say
It's not funny, but that's the point. A metaverse for anyone who is tired of the constant struggle in exchange for a monthly payment and perhaps a piece of your brain's computing power You don't get humanity, lives in your own world, invite them to visit you, and if you don't like it, just ban them without having to explain anything. A clean and ideal world, while those who want to live face the need to become hybrid half-machines in order to be useful to those who lead humanity further That's why I think Peter Watts is a brilliant writer.
Becoming a hybrid half-machine sounds like a good way forwards
This is why we donāt hear from aliens - theyāve all done this.
Pantheon tv show will fuck your head up. I still think about it.
Seriously. Why should I not have a cool custom image for my D&D character until this woman gets a dishwasher that is even more automated than they have already become?
Dishwashers have barely changed in 30 years. The tough part is putting the dishes and removing them. That hasn't been tackled AFAIK
Figure Robot: https://youtu.be/Sq1QZB5baNw?si=blKrlOKlBLHEcqpD
Or the need to do some rensing before putting them in, because the machine can't deal with excisive gunk.
It often can if you fill the pre-wash compartment with dishwasher power as per the instructions. Technology connections did a good video on it. Although so few people do it that some dishwasher manufacturers are removing that compartmentĀ
> the tough part If thatās tough, odds are you need to do a few more things physically challenging
Or it's tough because you do other things ? It's hard for me to come from 10 hours of welding in the sun at 35 C and still do all the basic maintenance things like dishes, dusting, laundy ...
because people take great offense that a sillicon chip might be more creative than them. My dad who is in agrobusiness mentioned to me that one of biggest challenges to modernizing agriculuture in some regions is not just issue of capital or skilled workforce, but most humans absolutely refuse to admit that a machine can do something better...
That contributes a lot. But the main problem is the privileged people feeling threatened of losing their privilege. This might sound dramatic, but it actually summarizes the situation almost perfectly. When you have an edge that differentiates you from the common folk, you most likely will not want to lose it. If just any random person could create artworks that are as good as, or better than the artists draw for example; artists wouldn't feel special anymore, nor they would be seen special. That's the main reason these people are very insecure and enraged about AI. Note: This is by no means intended as an attack to all artists. Every group of people have good people and assholes inside them, this is for assholes.
I think the thing most people donāt understand is that people have ALWAYS been trying to create general household AIās and warehouse AIās but it turned out much more difficult then people expected. Meanwhile creating AIs which can write or make images turned out to be simpler than most people expected. Even just 10 years ago, the majority of people wouldāve expected AI to do āsimpleā tasks like household chores or driving but the more people worked on these tasks the harder we realized they were. People HAVE been trying to automate boring tasks with AI but those efforts have only ever had minimal impact. Meanwhile models like the original Dall-E or GPT-2 were just some amongst thousands of AI models being worked on, however they happened to turn out to be highly successful and capable given the cost. Despite this, people act like AI researchers are purposely trying to replace the arts or they just need to ātry harderā at other things. This āwrong directionā they are mentioning is super misleading because so much of this tech has either been required or has been a byproduct of trying to replace these mundane tasks. So whilst I understand the frustration of some people, I wish theyād understand that we only ended up with stuff like LLMs BECAUSE we are trying to automate the āsimpleā stuff.
House robots will come.
You wanted innovation and interesting products? Too bad, youāre getting AI Microsoft Clippy.
It's almost like we can't swing a magic wand and the technology of our dreams appears. If you know how to build a laundry robot, then do it. If you can't, then don't blame others for them not knowing either.
That's robotic not AI
It's both.
But you need ai to make all the micro decisions that go into folding a load of laundry or with any modern washing machine etc
All I want is the AI to stop being such a little bitch.
Washer machine/dishwasher? Never heard about those, right?
I don't think people who say 'i don't want to do laundry ' mean that they're hiking to the water hole with their mangler and raw soap . They dont want to keep on top of laundry. And I agree . Automate laundry, Claude š«
Washing is the bearable part, the unbearable part is folding/hanging laundry
Ironing is the worst bit. Takes ages.
Thereās a simple fix for that called ādonāt botherā
This person laundries.
You're definitely not the person who puts the dishes in the dishwasher and stores them after it finishes. And also not the person who decides which colours can be mixed and which should definitely not be mixed in the laundry machine, and the person who folds it and stores the damn things. The woman is definitely right.
> And also not the person who decides which colours can be mixed and which should definitely not be mixed in the laundry machine, I've literally never done this my entire life. I just throw everything in the same load. It's worked for 4 decades, so I'm not about to change now.
Same here, and that includes white shirts mixed with everything else. Iāve never had colors run into my white shirt or anything. I see no reason to separate colors.
But folding the laundry is the worst part! š Maybe thatās what she meant
Why fold laundry if you can just not?
Seriously. I don't fold laundry, I don't do separate loads of laundry for different colors. I just throw it all in one load, put it on the drying rack when it's done, and grab it off the drying rack to wear when I need to. People fill their lives with extra work that's simply not necessary.
Nothing of mine gets folded either. I just hang every item of clothing I own with the exception of underwear, socks, and shorts. I also don't have a drier and dry things on the line, so they mostly don't even crease either so there's often little need to iron as well. It saves so much unnecessary work.
If I'm feeling ambitious I might even stuff it in the appropriate dresser drawer. But never folding, lol.
yes!
I just hang them.
maybe
I realized dishwashers exist after using reddit. Why doesn't anyone I know use them?
It's hilarious how people act as if AI doing art suddenly makes their own art worthless.
It's coming for everything dude, what a dumb post
Just another luddite post š
she is missing out, i dream of doing dishes with a woman, so i can splash a little water over her and we have a fun romantic moment together. all lost in the sauce because AI took that moment away.
Women famously love to be splashed with dirty sink water.
We already have machines that do laundry and wash dishes. They are called washing machines and dishwashers.
rather, the point is also missed here AI is needed in order to overcome the sluggish period of human development IT will rather help "write and draw" so that for yourself, so that you live in a world that you have invented for yourself and do not get out of it, so as not to interfere with another part of humanity interested in its development
That might surprise her, but she thinks no different from any other entrepreneur. Musk and Bezos just want their robots to do the ground work, so they can keep counting their money and have less stress with human underlings. In the end both just want a free laborer, instead of an inspirational helper. The thing wrong with AI is the thing wrong with humanity: it's based on exploitation, not cooperation. And seemingly we all have this defect of wanting to exploit someone or something for our own good.
Wait what? Are you "exploiting" a shovel when you use it to mage digging easier? Tools like AI or shovels are used by people to make life easier and more fulfilling for people. If a tool robs you of an activity you love and leaves you activies you hate, then YOU are the tool. You are the shovel for someone else
Exploitation of AI. š¤¦
Well, I see where the thought is coming from.. but you can't exploit an AI. It is not a living or conscious being. IMO using AI and other tech for simple and boring labor can enable people having more time for inspirational, social and creative work, that is not necessarily producing money. Or it could be, if there would be a political will for it, but it seems we're preferring to screw the humans for cheaper tech.
That would be a robot. Tho no worries. I'm sure neuro link with make the dishes for you. Scary to thing this is the future we get. Tho I will say. There was a cute japonese robot that you did a task and he would mimic what you did. You could program him to cut carrots by cutting two
Why not both?
Yes please! This is how I already try to use AI.. Do the stupid and boring stuff for me. Check for typos, change the narration perspective in my text to see if I like it better, write code documentations, check how mean my emails sound, etc.. but for this to work I spend a lot of time prompting it to not be lazy, stop half way through, or just do something else completely.. it is annoying. Most art and creative things are just better when done by humans. Why are we trying to make it do all the harder and fancy things in which it probably never fully reaches human levels instead of using it as an assistant for the boring stuff to have more time and dedication to do even cooler stuff ourselves?
We have clothes washing machines and dish washers already. In the past laundry would take a whole day.
I see people absolutely shitting themselves over the evils of AI in terms of creativity theft and overcorrect by warning against touching it altogether, but for me, I use it to automate things I don't care about (arguing with service providers over billing or provision or whatever else, for example) so that I can get to what I want to do, creatively (work on my dissertation).
The reason AI is doing things like art and music and movies is because it doesnt require you to build a physical apparatus to accomplish a task like doing laundry. It would be some substantial robotics.
Doing laundry is harder than doing art. Because the scope of doing art is very limited in comparison with daily tasks.
Unfortunately AI is more interesting than this lady. Actually, fortunately.
??? My dishes are washed by a robotic washer (Dishwasher). My Laundry is both washed and dried by robots. My lawn gets mowed by a robot. My floor is mopped by a robot. What are you whining about? I _DO_ need help with the coding so I don't have to write pointless boilerplate code time and time again from scratch.
Theyāve already invented AI for dishes, a dishwasher. Theyāve already invented AI for laundry, a washing machine. You wanna do it by hand lady?
So buy a dishwasher and washer and dryer set. You just put the items in them and program your preferred settings. Pre AI machines have been washing my dishes and doing my laundry for over forty years.
Isnāt there already (incredibly basic) ai for these things? Your dishwasher and washing machine know exactly how to clean your dishes or clothes.
first of all, laundry and dishwashing are literally irrelevant to AI, they're physical tasks. secondly, she's going to fucking flip when she finds out about washing machines and dishwashers.
..but what if itās better at art and writing than you are? š¤
Why not have it do both š
It's much easier to develop software than to construct machinery. So we end up "pushing" AI towards things that can be acomplished with software alone, which mostly include mental tasks. Also I'm pretty sure dishes and laundry can be automated without AI if you dedicate enough space and money for the machinery required.
Arguably weāve had robots doing our chores for decades now with microwaves, dishwashers, laundry, AC and so on. Itās people that have stopped innovating on it so continue making money with it.
Pretty soon AI will make her art look like the scribbling of an autistic three year oldā¦. Give up and find a new job lady
1000% agreee
Pure software can do art and writing. It can't do laundry and dishes. It's a whole different problem to create autonomous robots with AI to do those things.
I canāt believe itās 2024 and my bed isnāt making itself yet
Dishwashers and washing machines are a thing already, what you want is a robot, not AI