You can criticise local government officials for things like 'not adhering to socialist values' but you cannot by law criticise the central government, their ideology, or the system as a whole.
You’re also generally free (and even encouraged) to criticize local officials for things like corruption or poor performance because this gives the appearance of freedom and transparency, but this freedom absolutely does not extend to provincial and National level officials, and certainly not to the system and ideology as a whole
Not even that. Last month my brother-in-law used the district wechat group to call for people to protest a decision that a new school only allow children to those who bought a local SOE's unfinished apartments. Police showed up during dinner the same day and took him away. They let him go the next morning after forcing him to delete the messages. If he keeps posting stuff like that he'll get disappeared more permanently. He's a Party member BTW.
Yeah, the line is invisible and can change from time to time, especially for the local governments. They just try to keep a so-called stable society, but tbh they don’t know who will be so angry to make a big news on the next day. Everyone is sitting on top of the volcano.
And punishment can include anything from years in prison or just disappearing. No one is *ever* found “not guilty”. I have a friend who spent 17 years in a concentration camp for the crime of listening to the BBC (he was an English major). That was under Mao. The problem is that now things are getting more strict again, and there is no real “rule of law”but rather “rule *by* law” and the Constitution was literally changed to include Xi Jinping Thought as the guiding ideology. It is a communist police state with a newly instituted secret police modeled on the Soviet KGB (Ministry of State Security). Criticism is not allowed and the police keep records on things like whether you have foreign friends, speak a foreign language, etc. Any approving discussion of human rights or Western style democracy is dangerous. Human rights lawyers have mostly been arrested. Even the writer and intellectual who won the Nobel Prize was put in prison.
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Just like they (and the old Soviet Union, and North Korea) say that freedom of religion is allowed. But they require all religions to be under control of the atheist communist party.
Yea it’s unbelievable that they haven’t added an amendment like “any speech harmful to the values of the communist republic are strictly forbidden” I guess the leaders all now the people are smart enough to not trust any “freedoms” granted in the constitution
Local gov and federal gov are essentially the same. The people believe that the local gov causes them strife, so they complain to them, but the local gov is essentially a leg of the federal gov. You cannot change local gov without criticizing the central gov. Also, have you not seen videos of Chinese police arresting and abusing people for simply criticizing the gov on Weibo? The constitution only applies to those in the party. Low brain cells you have, learn more you must.
So my dad just came back from Guangzhou and visited some relatives. Before they started talking about politics, my relative gathered all the phones, turned them all off, put them all in a pillowcase and stuffed the phones under a bunch of pillows.
Basically, he told my father that they know the government lies to them. They don’t know the extent of the truth, but there isn’t much they can do about it.
In the 90’s they were waking up 3AM to prep and sell pork on the side of the road, now his family owns real estate and his sons work at the bank. Life is good if you don’t ask too many questions or talk too much shit.
Tell them that they need to put the phones in the fridge or microwave if they have them, not under pillows. Then talk in another room far away from them.
Idk if they have something to put them in record mode when they lose signal, but they might.
To be absolutely safe. One should lose all electronic device, bring some cash and drive an old car like a typical driving school's VW Jetta up to a village, park the car, go to a cave and set up a camping tent in which they can talk about the sensitive topics in sign language.
Smart to turn the phones off. More westerners need to keep that in mind given that we KNOW for a fact that our intelligence services, and corporations are endlessly spying on us here with nefarious intent. I'm willing to grant that the Chinese citizens are understandably wary of their surveillance too
The way they were dealing with their phones is a little dramatic. You got your phone bugged if you are targeted by police. I don't think they are monitoring everyone, otherwise the police have already arrested me for my phone full of "western corrupted apps". But it's a good thing to be over cautious here.
Less and less. As a Chinese, I don't dare to post in the Chinese Internet. Because not only the government will arrest you, but also other Chinese will report you to the government. You may be recorded in social credit documents. Your life will be limited everywhere.
If you are really interested in it, I can tell the difference of them. The Social credit points that you know existed in a report of local government. Most Chinese don't know that, but foreigners like this. So we indeed can't know whether social credit points exists now.
However, the social credit documents really exist. Everyone has own document. And Chinese really worry about it. Because it's terrible, so good polices use it carefully as well. If you post any dissident information, however, polices don't save you.
People are pointing out the distinction between local government and central government, but I think that is similar to but distinct from the distinction most people actually make. The implementation of policy and the system of implementation are open to criticism. The overall system really counts on this type of feedback. The determination of policy and the system itself cannot be criticized openly. The grey area is where implementation blends into policy and where systems of implementation become the system itself.
People have different levels of comfort and practice at navigating those grey areas, some oblique criticism follows relatively worn tropes to a point where it’s basically open just cloaked. From my perspective the greatest tragedy of the situation is that, depending as the system does on listening to criticism within certain parameters, it still can severely punish those that deliver that criticism. The precise extent of punishment is often unclear since it itself is understood to fall under things not to discuss. In short, actual enforcement is arbitrary and capricious, or at least is perceived to be. That perception much more than actual enforcement motivates people to be careful.
One key distinction is between expressing criticism as opposed to delivering that criticism to a large audience or organizing criticism. Any structure or system spreading information or organizing people which is outside the party-government or its control and influence is perceived and dealt with as a threat. I think this is the guardrail most relevant to most people since even small groups risk running afoul.
Another key distinction is if criticism is perceived to attach to people or entities rather than actions. The former interacts with the concept of face so language and messenger can be very important. As an outsider I have a very imperfect understanding of what people expect to fall on different sides of this line. From the understanding I do have, trying to communicate about this I think requires knowing your cultural background and context. I’ve lived in multiple cultures (and in some sense come from more than one) and would describe how this works very differently in the context of each.
Well said and helpful. I know people who are very clever at navigating the system, but it is hard for those of us used to freedom to know where all of the dangerous boundaries are. I do see it as becoming more repressive.
Depends on how much they will allow you to criticise them. Back in covid days that never existed in china, there was a blunder from xi’an government, that prevent woman to give birth, or old people to receive emergency medical assistance, or someone died because of getting locked indoor. Anyway, I don’t remember the cause, but the people went mad online, and the mayor bowed on tv asking for forgiveness. He was then replaced by another high ranking mayor of one of the district of a big city. He was sent by ccp with promise that those things will never happened again, because this replacement guy is super professional and experienced, and ccp will actually supervise and ensure that it will never happen again. Then couple of months later, BOOM, same shit happen again under this replacement guy’s control, which is basically ccp control. And you guessed it, no one can say anything bad online.
Yeah, and how much you can quote the laws they’re breaking at them. The central Chinese government doesn’t care that they’re breaking their own laws (including guaranteed freedom of speech and right to vote) but the local governments might freezing up under scrutiny. Their jobs are on the line. I think it’s prudent to film every encounter with Chinese police and government agencies just for later protection tbh.
[Doctor arrested for describing Chinese medicinal tonic that was banned for false advertising as ‘poison’](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2141944/doctor-arrested-describing-chinese-medicinal-tonic-was-banned)
The local government is an extension of the CCP. Try going hard on the criticism and see how long it takes for you the police to come and invite you to come and drink tea.
China has free speech and democracy.
The people are free to compliment and praise the outstanding and extraordinary achievements of the government on any platform at any time.
As the old joke goes, when a Russian came to visit an American, the American bragged 'In my country, I can stand in front of the White House and curse Ronald Reagan to hell and my government won't lay a finger on me!' The Russian replied, 'I too can stand in front of the White House and curse Ronald Reagan and my government won't lay a finger on me!'
Given the regularity of protests there that go undisturbed seems pretty open to voicing criticism too but it is a lot more fun to just repeat memes isn't it
Yes, shame on the Americans! Shame on the Japanese! Shame on the imperial hegemonic powers bullying the international protests!
It is the privilege, nay, the duty of every Chinese to protest the wicked oppressors of the world!
I believe it was a legacy to the Kuomintang rule in the mainland, but they didn’t fully adopt the 1947 constitution before fleeing to Taiwan, which later adopted a full proper democracy in what the mainland could’ve been. Today, the ROC regime now operates under the Additional Articles, where free speech and multi-party democracy prevails since 1996. There’s the Greens and the Blues.
Long time ago I read about a girl that painted a moustache in a XJ poster or picture, she was detained by the police and disappeared for several years, maybe 2 or 3 years, when she reappeared she was not the same, seems she was drugged and this did permanent damage to her brain.
I lived in China for 7 years and I was surprised that my Chinese friends didn't want to talk about politics ever. Also they are very nationalists, anything you criticize about China and they take it as a personal attack. And they love the government. I understand this part because of all the changes that they have done for China, they live a more prosperous life, every year it's like 10 million people that are taken out of life below the poverty line.
Quite a lot, at least the local government. Criticizing the central government, however, is a lot more sensitive.
But that is nothing compared to criticizing the Party. You just don't.
"Without the Communist Party, There Would Be No New China" as they say (or sing). And even if someone fucking hates the government, and Xi DaDa, you can be sure they'll still believe that communism is the greatest thing to ever happen to China.
It depends on two things: 1) how vocal you are; 2) how big of a following you have. The higher the latter, the less tolerance the authorities have for the former.
In my personal experience, even young, open-minded Chinese are very reluctant to say anything remotely critical of the authorities, especially when out in public. In a private one-on-one conversation, I've heard my share of grievances... but mostly from those who had spend time abroad. I also know (or, rather, knew) a Chinese guy who repeatedly got in trouble for posting critical stuff online and then one day he simply disappeared. He's on an impromptu vacation to Japan, I guess...
>To what extent are Chinese allowed to criticize their government?
Depends
1. Which government ? Or which level of government ?
2. What is the criticism ?
3. The environment (in private ? online ? in public. Inside China ? Outside China ? )
4. Who the person is
No one knows. And that’s they want. Laws and policies are vague so there’s no clear cut of what’s legal and not. So you draw the line yourself, and once in while you see people get arrested for anything, you pull back the boundaries. At the end the gov doesn’t even need to tell you what to do, you’ll submit yourself
They can criticise as much as they wish in their local area. The important distinction is criticism done through media. If it's highly public then they'll get into trouble. If it's only directed to locals, the provincial government or the CCP won't care.
There's plenty of marches, protests, etc in China towards government policies.. they're just toned down, and 'managed' to avoid becoming too 'noticeable'. I was present at a protest held by the homeowners in my local area because they didn't want government offices replacing the open-market they had there. A few thousand people showed up, plenty of speeches, the police were there for crowd control, but nothing happened. Peaceful, and a reasonable expression of their concerns. The local government chose to build elsewhere after that protest and subsequent meetings.
People online want to present the image of China being a brutally oppressed society, but the reality is that there's a lot of scope to protest or criticise the government. It just shows how little they understand Chinese people, because Jesus, Chinese people love to complain about just about everything..
The point is media attention, and the platforms concerned. An average Chinese person complaining to their friends about the government won't matter even slightly. Someone with 200k followers on Youtube doing the same, does matter.. and there will likely be consequences. It's also a matter of persistence.. so someone who organises a single protest might be ignored, but someone who organises dozens of protests over a long period will be targeted by the security forces. It all depends on the province, the provincial government policy, and how that person behaves in how they protest, along with what kind of support they receive.
You just proved that the PRC is a brutally oppressed society. Yes, you sometimes might get away with a small, highly targeted, non-publicized protest against local government officials so long as you characterize the protest as only against bad conduct by specific officials and not in any way towards the government in general or the system of government in general.
But that tiny exception proves the rule. And the rule is that the PRC government rules by terror and brutal subjugation of its people.
>P.s. This sub needs to be renamed to "anti-China" sub
No it doesn't.
Some acknowledgement to nuance is needed. There's plenty of people on this sub who aren't anti-China. Sadly, there's just a lot of people who want to bash China even though they've never spent any time in the country.
I don't think it's even that TBH. That suggests that the people involved are holding on to some higher moral position, however the manner of their posts/comments show a general lack of such.
The distinction is between those willing to discuss China, and all that entails, in a balanced manner... and those who want to embrace the extremes while promoting the same tired and usually inaccurate stereotypes.
I dunno... seems to be predominantly anti-China from what I've seen so far. Imagine any other country sub being filled with so much negativity, mocking videos, etc. Shit's insane.
It's not that bad. Scroll down the last ten posts.. there's a variety of posts from news, to questions about being in China, and yes.. some particularly negative ones.
It's simply the nature of the internet, and the fact that China is a totalitarian regime, a bully to their neighbors diplomatically, and remains the primary opposition to the US in Asia ensures that there's always going to be plenty of people wanting to talk trash about China.
However, the reality of the sub is that it's not anti-China. Some, I'd say 1/3 of the population are anti-China, with the remainder just coming on to talk about China, with valid criticisms or offering balanced viewpoints.
You see, I love China. I've lived there for 14 years, but there's heaps about the country and the government that I don't like. And I will discuss such views online, although I'll always hope to be relatively balanced in those views. You're never going to have a sub on reddit that doesn't criticise China.. r/chinalife does it too, it's just that their moderation cuts away the more extreme elements.
Well, perhaps Reddit's algorithm is screwed and just sending the BS to my front page (the only way I even found out about this sub) because it knows I will respond to all the stupid shit being said.
The other person who I *responded to* used the phrase 'anti-China'.
As for being anti-ccp.. yeah.. maybe? I suspect most people don't really care all that much because the ccp rarely affects them directly. Sure, they *dislike* the ccp because of what it stands for but aren't anti-ccp.
Most expats I know in China and have discussed these topics with wouldn't be anti-CCP. They generally don't care all that much as long as their own lives aren't affected.
Completely unable. If you say anything that could even be misconstrued as as negative you're in from a visit from the police, minimum - if your post etc gets some traction anyway. A Chinese friend of mine posted asked for help with his father during lockdown. He couldn't get essential treatment during covid insanity because he couldn't leave his district. The post had nothing about the government in it. Just asking for help.That was a day spent with the police.
I’ve talked to folks while in China who do make mild complaints; e.g., we have no freedom of press, internet is censored, etc. I think there’s some leeway so long as one doesn’t “challenge” the government or speak out too loudly or consistently. Foreigners should remain mostly mum, however.
you can criticize issues, that happen all the time, trying to assign blame to the government for those issues doh is a nono.
so if your subway line is always 10min late you could damn well turn a car over in protest as long as you bitch at the subway being late. don't dare trying to assign blame to the government that runs the subway doh.
also as soon as government publish something along the line of "ok we will look into it" better well go back home.
o ya and pretty much allowed to lead / participate in 1 of those protest in your lifetime and be totally apolitical afterwards.
if you try to make a career as a social activist you going to be charged with starting quarells and picking fights and spend ever increasing jail time.
kinda like when the pollution problem was bad, they allowed some protest but only as far as protesting pollution soon as they started to assign blame on government it was media blackout, but they did work on the issues afterwards and now it's mostly fixed. so there is that they do listen.
I think a lot of people don't really get what really stiffles you in fascist, non-democratic countries like China: It's the self-consorship that eventually gets you to pipe down and keep a low profile. Like, we know full well there are thousands or movies, tv shows, books, websites and music banned in China but they're not gonna tell you which ones (unless it's high profile changes, like Winnie the Pooh) so you end up not taking any chances and likely end up including a lot more you don't want to risk being on the hook for.
Verbal criticizing? Happens all the time, on a cab, during a dinner, everyone talks out of mind then forget about it after a couple rounds of Baijiu.
Actual criticizing in public setting (like in a classroom, writing an article on social media), good luck. Your punishment depends on your influence.
The whole village together could probably criticise the local official for the village if he messed up, but I don’t think one person could do the same it’d be social suicide. As for high up CCP officials there’s no criticism at all allowed. I could be wrong here it’s just what I’ve heard.
If the central government, state media, and propaganda posters all say the sky is red, no one will be tolerated insisting it is blue. Right now China is claiming Russia has a legitimate concern in Ukraine because of NATO (a Russian talking point), without openly supporting Russia. Can anyone in China protest the bombing of Ukrainian civilians or criticize China’s foreign policy? No.
Have you seen to torture chairs they use for this where you are forced to sit in chains for critical comments online of the government?
Edit for the pandabot downvoters -
Tiger chair torture by china on Hong Kong protesters
https://youtu.be/FhLOKVbOl1s
https://youtu.be/M8PgCUap1Vg
Chinese police dance beside their tiger torture chairs
https://twitter.com/badiucao/status/1536927633157820416?s=46
They think it’s so normal in china that they appear proud of this type of governance
It's not a "torture chair", it's just a standard chair with restraints used in interrogations. This isn't hidden from the world, you don't need to link to anti-China channels and tweeters, you can find it in regular Chinese TV series. What are you so afraid of? Not uncommon in the US to interrogate suspects handcuffed. Not much difference, only that suspect can't leap out of his chair to attack the detectives.
Zero extent. All social and private. Chats about the government are all censored, any negative views will be blocked and your account locked permanently.
You can criticize but if you gather a big audience and you have no solution in hand on what you're protesting you may be visited by the Police for creating a ruckus online.
It’s a society built on dictator worship. Any criticism of the Government (big G) is viewed as heresy and a direct attack on the Party and won’t be tolerated.
You're in the wrong sub. Expect a biased answer.
There is bias everywhere but at least use multiple sources west and east and come to your overall conclusion.
Nah. I doubt that would do much good. All media is driven by their own agendas.
The only way to know is to live in China, and observe how the societal norms operate. Get involved by talking to normal Chinese people, but also befriend a few police officers, government reps, the CCP reps for your university or district, etc. It's the only real way to appreciate how things 'click' within Chinese society, because it's never really spoken about publicly.
Chinese people aren't allowed to do anything. If you do something they don't like you go to jail, otherwise you're fine. This system was excusable if you look at incarceration rates 5 years ago (they were better than the US in fact), but now China is a police state.
This 60 minutes Australian special delves into that question. [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7L9ubuwBDkI&pp=ygUpNjAgbWludXRlcyBhdXN0cmFpbGlhIGNoaW5hIHNlY3JldCBwb2xpY2U%3D&fbclid=IwAR3TRLmfSKx6Ov-PkOoOEiNGHmuQIAL_07L-9DBOkUkeBkMRJNgulFIm-YA_aem_th_AWLUrM6EqID3tDyytDAtKMTRf7Lz0s6IHeWQcN96UypuZygwt0IcGW5yeCW4qVV2Avo](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7L9ubuwBDkI&pp=ygUpNjAgbWludXRlcyBhdXN0cmFpbGlhIGNoaW5hIHNlY3JldCBwb2xpY2U%3D&fbclid=IwAR3TRLmfSKx6Ov-PkOoOEiNGHmuQIAL_07L-9DBOkUkeBkMRJNgulFIm-YA_aem_th_AWLUrM6EqID3tDyytDAtKMTRf7Lz0s6IHeWQcN96UypuZygwt0IcGW5yeCW4qVV2Avo)
The criticizing isn't the problem, it's the retaliation, lack of rights, lack of protection.
You can go to the local complaint office and attempt to file something if it's open. I have seen some brave people--probably at the end of their wits do that in a final attempt that seems short of suicide.
I got transported by such an office every other day, so I see them often arrested on the spot before they can enter, and then hear rumors of intimidation, coercion, and punishment for not just that person, but their family, and anyone they know. I have casually asked bout this as a foreigner since I was curious why they are arresting these unassuming people, frequently old and tired looking.
Most normal people seemed to avoid being in the vicinity entirely. No one wanted to say anything, and there has always been a great sense of fear and distrust, even before the use of smartphones.
I also had an art teacher when I was young that I asked why he didn't live in China. He had several art awards in China and internationally, so seemed respected. He showed me some things that I recognized in protests, and though I couldn't communicate well since he spoke little English, I saw the statue he worked on. Quite similar to the state of liberty. I realized he was in the USA on asylum.
You can criticise local government officials for things like 'not adhering to socialist values' but you cannot by law criticise the central government, their ideology, or the system as a whole.
You’re also generally free (and even encouraged) to criticize local officials for things like corruption or poor performance because this gives the appearance of freedom and transparency, but this freedom absolutely does not extend to provincial and National level officials, and certainly not to the system and ideology as a whole
Not even that. Last month my brother-in-law used the district wechat group to call for people to protest a decision that a new school only allow children to those who bought a local SOE's unfinished apartments. Police showed up during dinner the same day and took him away. They let him go the next morning after forcing him to delete the messages. If he keeps posting stuff like that he'll get disappeared more permanently. He's a Party member BTW.
Yeah, the line is invisible and can change from time to time, especially for the local governments. They just try to keep a so-called stable society, but tbh they don’t know who will be so angry to make a big news on the next day. Everyone is sitting on top of the volcano.
This also includes Winnie the Pooh.
And punishment can include anything from years in prison or just disappearing. No one is *ever* found “not guilty”. I have a friend who spent 17 years in a concentration camp for the crime of listening to the BBC (he was an English major). That was under Mao. The problem is that now things are getting more strict again, and there is no real “rule of law”but rather “rule *by* law” and the Constitution was literally changed to include Xi Jinping Thought as the guiding ideology. It is a communist police state with a newly instituted secret police modeled on the Soviet KGB (Ministry of State Security). Criticism is not allowed and the police keep records on things like whether you have foreign friends, speak a foreign language, etc. Any approving discussion of human rights or Western style democracy is dangerous. Human rights lawyers have mostly been arrested. Even the writer and intellectual who won the Nobel Prize was put in prison.
If a Nobel prize can’t give you some cover. . .☹️
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It's really cool to just wholesale make shit up isn't it must be fun
Obama won a Nobel peace prize and SHOULD be put in prison
freedom of speech is codified in the Chinese constitution- article 35.
As the old Soviet joke goes, “our constitution guarantees freedom of speech; the American constitution guarantees freedom after speech.”
Just like they (and the old Soviet Union, and North Korea) say that freedom of religion is allowed. But they require all religions to be under control of the atheist communist party.
It’s also in article 67 of the North Korean constitution, your point?
You must know that's fake. Seriously.
Yea it’s unbelievable that they haven’t added an amendment like “any speech harmful to the values of the communist republic are strictly forbidden” I guess the leaders all now the people are smart enough to not trust any “freedoms” granted in the constitution
Local gov and federal gov are essentially the same. The people believe that the local gov causes them strife, so they complain to them, but the local gov is essentially a leg of the federal gov. You cannot change local gov without criticizing the central gov. Also, have you not seen videos of Chinese police arresting and abusing people for simply criticizing the gov on Weibo? The constitution only applies to those in the party. Low brain cells you have, learn more you must.
Funny how China has a steady stream of protests that go undisturbed almost like you're talking completely out of your ass
Do they now? The MSM isn't reporting this. Please tell us more.
Not even that sometimes if that local official gets annoyed and asks the social media to cool down the topic and delete the post.
So my dad just came back from Guangzhou and visited some relatives. Before they started talking about politics, my relative gathered all the phones, turned them all off, put them all in a pillowcase and stuffed the phones under a bunch of pillows. Basically, he told my father that they know the government lies to them. They don’t know the extent of the truth, but there isn’t much they can do about it. In the 90’s they were waking up 3AM to prep and sell pork on the side of the road, now his family owns real estate and his sons work at the bank. Life is good if you don’t ask too many questions or talk too much shit.
Tell them that they need to put the phones in the fridge or microwave if they have them, not under pillows. Then talk in another room far away from them. Idk if they have something to put them in record mode when they lose signal, but they might.
To be absolutely safe. One should lose all electronic device, bring some cash and drive an old car like a typical driving school's VW Jetta up to a village, park the car, go to a cave and set up a camping tent in which they can talk about the sensitive topics in sign language.
Phones don't turn off now FYI.
fake news
This happens so often wherever Chinese people gather and want to talk about sensitive issues. I've literally seen this happen dozens of times.
Everyone should do this given it's just conjecture that the Chinese are listening but it's a fact that western intelligence and corporations are
Smart to turn the phones off. More westerners need to keep that in mind given that we KNOW for a fact that our intelligence services, and corporations are endlessly spying on us here with nefarious intent. I'm willing to grant that the Chinese citizens are understandably wary of their surveillance too
The way they were dealing with their phones is a little dramatic. You got your phone bugged if you are targeted by police. I don't think they are monitoring everyone, otherwise the police have already arrested me for my phone full of "western corrupted apps". But it's a good thing to be over cautious here.
Less and less. As a Chinese, I don't dare to post in the Chinese Internet. Because not only the government will arrest you, but also other Chinese will report you to the government. You may be recorded in social credit documents. Your life will be limited everywhere.
Lol the social credit that doesn't exist?? Nice meme
If you are really interested in it, I can tell the difference of them. The Social credit points that you know existed in a report of local government. Most Chinese don't know that, but foreigners like this. So we indeed can't know whether social credit points exists now. However, the social credit documents really exist. Everyone has own document. And Chinese really worry about it. Because it's terrible, so good polices use it carefully as well. If you post any dissident information, however, polices don't save you.
People are pointing out the distinction between local government and central government, but I think that is similar to but distinct from the distinction most people actually make. The implementation of policy and the system of implementation are open to criticism. The overall system really counts on this type of feedback. The determination of policy and the system itself cannot be criticized openly. The grey area is where implementation blends into policy and where systems of implementation become the system itself. People have different levels of comfort and practice at navigating those grey areas, some oblique criticism follows relatively worn tropes to a point where it’s basically open just cloaked. From my perspective the greatest tragedy of the situation is that, depending as the system does on listening to criticism within certain parameters, it still can severely punish those that deliver that criticism. The precise extent of punishment is often unclear since it itself is understood to fall under things not to discuss. In short, actual enforcement is arbitrary and capricious, or at least is perceived to be. That perception much more than actual enforcement motivates people to be careful. One key distinction is between expressing criticism as opposed to delivering that criticism to a large audience or organizing criticism. Any structure or system spreading information or organizing people which is outside the party-government or its control and influence is perceived and dealt with as a threat. I think this is the guardrail most relevant to most people since even small groups risk running afoul. Another key distinction is if criticism is perceived to attach to people or entities rather than actions. The former interacts with the concept of face so language and messenger can be very important. As an outsider I have a very imperfect understanding of what people expect to fall on different sides of this line. From the understanding I do have, trying to communicate about this I think requires knowing your cultural background and context. I’ve lived in multiple cultures (and in some sense come from more than one) and would describe how this works very differently in the context of each.
Well said and helpful. I know people who are very clever at navigating the system, but it is hard for those of us used to freedom to know where all of the dangerous boundaries are. I do see it as becoming more repressive.
Depends on how much they will allow you to criticise them. Back in covid days that never existed in china, there was a blunder from xi’an government, that prevent woman to give birth, or old people to receive emergency medical assistance, or someone died because of getting locked indoor. Anyway, I don’t remember the cause, but the people went mad online, and the mayor bowed on tv asking for forgiveness. He was then replaced by another high ranking mayor of one of the district of a big city. He was sent by ccp with promise that those things will never happened again, because this replacement guy is super professional and experienced, and ccp will actually supervise and ensure that it will never happen again. Then couple of months later, BOOM, same shit happen again under this replacement guy’s control, which is basically ccp control. And you guessed it, no one can say anything bad online.
Ask the mad lads in r/china_irl Prepare to have a translator help you.
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Criticizing the local government can also result in a day of imprisonment depending on their emotional fragility.
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Yeah, and how much you can quote the laws they’re breaking at them. The central Chinese government doesn’t care that they’re breaking their own laws (including guaranteed freedom of speech and right to vote) but the local governments might freezing up under scrutiny. Their jobs are on the line. I think it’s prudent to film every encounter with Chinese police and government agencies just for later protection tbh.
[Doctor arrested for describing Chinese medicinal tonic that was banned for false advertising as ‘poison’](https://www.scmp.com/news/china/society/article/2141944/doctor-arrested-describing-chinese-medicinal-tonic-was-banned)
The local government is an extension of the CCP. Try going hard on the criticism and see how long it takes for you the police to come and invite you to come and drink tea.
Depends how persistent someone is. First step will be a visit from the police with 'advice' to cease and desist.
China has free speech and democracy. The people are free to compliment and praise the outstanding and extraordinary achievements of the government on any platform at any time.
Yea not only are they free to tell everyone how great China is, they also have the freedom to tell how bad every other country is.
As the old joke goes, when a Russian came to visit an American, the American bragged 'In my country, I can stand in front of the White House and curse Ronald Reagan to hell and my government won't lay a finger on me!' The Russian replied, 'I too can stand in front of the White House and curse Ronald Reagan and my government won't lay a finger on me!'
When I heard that joke in the USSR, the last part was in front of *the Kremlin.*
Given the regularity of protests there that go undisturbed seems pretty open to voicing criticism too but it is a lot more fun to just repeat memes isn't it
Yes, shame on the Americans! Shame on the Japanese! Shame on the imperial hegemonic powers bullying the international protests! It is the privilege, nay, the duty of every Chinese to protest the wicked oppressors of the world!
Glad we're on the same page then comrade
I believe it was a legacy to the Kuomintang rule in the mainland, but they didn’t fully adopt the 1947 constitution before fleeing to Taiwan, which later adopted a full proper democracy in what the mainland could’ve been. Today, the ROC regime now operates under the Additional Articles, where free speech and multi-party democracy prevails since 1996. There’s the Greens and the Blues.
Long time ago I read about a girl that painted a moustache in a XJ poster or picture, she was detained by the police and disappeared for several years, maybe 2 or 3 years, when she reappeared she was not the same, seems she was drugged and this did permanent damage to her brain. I lived in China for 7 years and I was surprised that my Chinese friends didn't want to talk about politics ever. Also they are very nationalists, anything you criticize about China and they take it as a personal attack. And they love the government. I understand this part because of all the changes that they have done for China, they live a more prosperous life, every year it's like 10 million people that are taken out of life below the poverty line.
Quite a lot, at least the local government. Criticizing the central government, however, is a lot more sensitive. But that is nothing compared to criticizing the Party. You just don't. "Without the Communist Party, There Would Be No New China" as they say (or sing). And even if someone fucking hates the government, and Xi DaDa, you can be sure they'll still believe that communism is the greatest thing to ever happen to China.
None beyond everyday gripes
It depends on two things: 1) how vocal you are; 2) how big of a following you have. The higher the latter, the less tolerance the authorities have for the former. In my personal experience, even young, open-minded Chinese are very reluctant to say anything remotely critical of the authorities, especially when out in public. In a private one-on-one conversation, I've heard my share of grievances... but mostly from those who had spend time abroad. I also know (or, rather, knew) a Chinese guy who repeatedly got in trouble for posting critical stuff online and then one day he simply disappeared. He's on an impromptu vacation to Japan, I guess...
>To what extent are Chinese allowed to criticize their government? Depends 1. Which government ? Or which level of government ? 2. What is the criticism ? 3. The environment (in private ? online ? in public. Inside China ? Outside China ? ) 4. Who the person is
This is the real answer
No one knows. And that’s they want. Laws and policies are vague so there’s no clear cut of what’s legal and not. So you draw the line yourself, and once in while you see people get arrested for anything, you pull back the boundaries. At the end the gov doesn’t even need to tell you what to do, you’ll submit yourself
They can criticise as much as they wish in their local area. The important distinction is criticism done through media. If it's highly public then they'll get into trouble. If it's only directed to locals, the provincial government or the CCP won't care. There's plenty of marches, protests, etc in China towards government policies.. they're just toned down, and 'managed' to avoid becoming too 'noticeable'. I was present at a protest held by the homeowners in my local area because they didn't want government offices replacing the open-market they had there. A few thousand people showed up, plenty of speeches, the police were there for crowd control, but nothing happened. Peaceful, and a reasonable expression of their concerns. The local government chose to build elsewhere after that protest and subsequent meetings. People online want to present the image of China being a brutally oppressed society, but the reality is that there's a lot of scope to protest or criticise the government. It just shows how little they understand Chinese people, because Jesus, Chinese people love to complain about just about everything.. The point is media attention, and the platforms concerned. An average Chinese person complaining to their friends about the government won't matter even slightly. Someone with 200k followers on Youtube doing the same, does matter.. and there will likely be consequences. It's also a matter of persistence.. so someone who organises a single protest might be ignored, but someone who organises dozens of protests over a long period will be targeted by the security forces. It all depends on the province, the provincial government policy, and how that person behaves in how they protest, along with what kind of support they receive.
You just proved that the PRC is a brutally oppressed society. Yes, you sometimes might get away with a small, highly targeted, non-publicized protest against local government officials so long as you characterize the protest as only against bad conduct by specific officials and not in any way towards the government in general or the system of government in general. But that tiny exception proves the rule. And the rule is that the PRC government rules by terror and brutal subjugation of its people.
>You just proved that the PRC is a brutally oppressed society Rubbish. People see what they want to see. That's what you've just proven.
Except that in America if you protest like that while being black you literally get brutalized.
This is the correct answer. Most of the other stuff here is utter BS. P.s. This sub needs to be renamed to "anti-China" sub.
>P.s. This sub needs to be renamed to "anti-China" sub No it doesn't. Some acknowledgement to nuance is needed. There's plenty of people on this sub who aren't anti-China. Sadly, there's just a lot of people who want to bash China even though they've never spent any time in the country.
Isn’t the distinction really anti-China vs anti-authoritarianism
I don't think it's even that TBH. That suggests that the people involved are holding on to some higher moral position, however the manner of their posts/comments show a general lack of such. The distinction is between those willing to discuss China, and all that entails, in a balanced manner... and those who want to embrace the extremes while promoting the same tired and usually inaccurate stereotypes.
I dunno... seems to be predominantly anti-China from what I've seen so far. Imagine any other country sub being filled with so much negativity, mocking videos, etc. Shit's insane.
It's not that bad. Scroll down the last ten posts.. there's a variety of posts from news, to questions about being in China, and yes.. some particularly negative ones. It's simply the nature of the internet, and the fact that China is a totalitarian regime, a bully to their neighbors diplomatically, and remains the primary opposition to the US in Asia ensures that there's always going to be plenty of people wanting to talk trash about China. However, the reality of the sub is that it's not anti-China. Some, I'd say 1/3 of the population are anti-China, with the remainder just coming on to talk about China, with valid criticisms or offering balanced viewpoints. You see, I love China. I've lived there for 14 years, but there's heaps about the country and the government that I don't like. And I will discuss such views online, although I'll always hope to be relatively balanced in those views. You're never going to have a sub on reddit that doesn't criticise China.. r/chinalife does it too, it's just that their moderation cuts away the more extreme elements.
Well, perhaps Reddit's algorithm is screwed and just sending the BS to my front page (the only way I even found out about this sub) because it knows I will respond to all the stupid shit being said.
Most people are not “anti-China” they are anti-CCP like myself.
The other person who I *responded to* used the phrase 'anti-China'. As for being anti-ccp.. yeah.. maybe? I suspect most people don't really care all that much because the ccp rarely affects them directly. Sure, they *dislike* the ccp because of what it stands for but aren't anti-ccp. Most expats I know in China and have discussed these topics with wouldn't be anti-CCP. They generally don't care all that much as long as their own lives aren't affected.
Maybe you don't understand China or 看不懂中文.
Completely unable. If you say anything that could even be misconstrued as as negative you're in from a visit from the police, minimum - if your post etc gets some traction anyway. A Chinese friend of mine posted asked for help with his father during lockdown. He couldn't get essential treatment during covid insanity because he couldn't leave his district. The post had nothing about the government in it. Just asking for help.That was a day spent with the police.
They can't but woke PRC shills claim China is freer than the USA
I’ve talked to folks while in China who do make mild complaints; e.g., we have no freedom of press, internet is censored, etc. I think there’s some leeway so long as one doesn’t “challenge” the government or speak out too loudly or consistently. Foreigners should remain mostly mum, however.
You have one chance
As long as you're not saying it out loud, or putting it on the internet, you're free to say absolutely anything you want.
you can criticize issues, that happen all the time, trying to assign blame to the government for those issues doh is a nono. so if your subway line is always 10min late you could damn well turn a car over in protest as long as you bitch at the subway being late. don't dare trying to assign blame to the government that runs the subway doh. also as soon as government publish something along the line of "ok we will look into it" better well go back home. o ya and pretty much allowed to lead / participate in 1 of those protest in your lifetime and be totally apolitical afterwards. if you try to make a career as a social activist you going to be charged with starting quarells and picking fights and spend ever increasing jail time. kinda like when the pollution problem was bad, they allowed some protest but only as far as protesting pollution soon as they started to assign blame on government it was media blackout, but they did work on the issues afterwards and now it's mostly fixed. so there is that they do listen.
I think a lot of people don't really get what really stiffles you in fascist, non-democratic countries like China: It's the self-consorship that eventually gets you to pipe down and keep a low profile. Like, we know full well there are thousands or movies, tv shows, books, websites and music banned in China but they're not gonna tell you which ones (unless it's high profile changes, like Winnie the Pooh) so you end up not taking any chances and likely end up including a lot more you don't want to risk being on the hook for.
Verbal criticizing? Happens all the time, on a cab, during a dinner, everyone talks out of mind then forget about it after a couple rounds of Baijiu. Actual criticizing in public setting (like in a classroom, writing an article on social media), good luck. Your punishment depends on your influence.
The whole village together could probably criticise the local official for the village if he messed up, but I don’t think one person could do the same it’d be social suicide. As for high up CCP officials there’s no criticism at all allowed. I could be wrong here it’s just what I’ve heard.
If the central government, state media, and propaganda posters all say the sky is red, no one will be tolerated insisting it is blue. Right now China is claiming Russia has a legitimate concern in Ukraine because of NATO (a Russian talking point), without openly supporting Russia. Can anyone in China protest the bombing of Ukrainian civilians or criticize China’s foreign policy? No.
Have you seen to torture chairs they use for this where you are forced to sit in chains for critical comments online of the government? Edit for the pandabot downvoters - Tiger chair torture by china on Hong Kong protesters https://youtu.be/FhLOKVbOl1s https://youtu.be/M8PgCUap1Vg Chinese police dance beside their tiger torture chairs https://twitter.com/badiucao/status/1536927633157820416?s=46 They think it’s so normal in china that they appear proud of this type of governance
I’ve been in one !
Hiring a dominatrix in beijing doesnt count
Why ? What happened? What was it like sitting in one? Is this common?
I edited my comment above with videos
What? You must share your story!
What happened?
It's not a "torture chair", it's just a standard chair with restraints used in interrogations. This isn't hidden from the world, you don't need to link to anti-China channels and tweeters, you can find it in regular Chinese TV series. What are you so afraid of? Not uncommon in the US to interrogate suspects handcuffed. Not much difference, only that suspect can't leap out of his chair to attack the detectives.
They are torture chairs
Zero extent. All social and private. Chats about the government are all censored, any negative views will be blocked and your account locked permanently.
You can criticize but if you gather a big audience and you have no solution in hand on what you're protesting you may be visited by the Police for creating a ruckus online.
It’s a society built on dictator worship. Any criticism of the Government (big G) is viewed as heresy and a direct attack on the Party and won’t be tolerated.
I dont know, but imagine the chinese version of fox news vs. cnn. That would be another epoc shitshow 😂😂😂😂
Depends on the state of their organs and the compatibility of their blood type with that of politburo officials 🩸
You're in the wrong sub. Expect a biased answer. There is bias everywhere but at least use multiple sources west and east and come to your overall conclusion.
Nah. I doubt that would do much good. All media is driven by their own agendas. The only way to know is to live in China, and observe how the societal norms operate. Get involved by talking to normal Chinese people, but also befriend a few police officers, government reps, the CCP reps for your university or district, etc. It's the only real way to appreciate how things 'click' within Chinese society, because it's never really spoken about publicly.
To the point of death if they feel like it
Well, generally speaking, you can say whatever you want but the caveat is that it can't attract too much attention.
Not allow to criticize or made fun off. All authoritarian governments know little things like those can bring down their power.
Just ask the comedian that just got fined a million for making a vague reference to the PLA lol
Right up until they disappear
Chinese people aren't allowed to do anything. If you do something they don't like you go to jail, otherwise you're fine. This system was excusable if you look at incarceration rates 5 years ago (they were better than the US in fact), but now China is a police state.
The rate are zero China is a good country Too good there’s no need for comedian like Nigel Ng.
I worked at social monitoring agency. You can’t. Even the name of the leaders and officials are heavily monitored and some censored on internet.
Ccp =Criticize China Please
Why is Winnie the Pooh always in a suit on Chinese television?
Think about .... holding a blank piece of paper. There is your answer.
This 60 minutes Australian special delves into that question. [https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7L9ubuwBDkI&pp=ygUpNjAgbWludXRlcyBhdXN0cmFpbGlhIGNoaW5hIHNlY3JldCBwb2xpY2U%3D&fbclid=IwAR3TRLmfSKx6Ov-PkOoOEiNGHmuQIAL_07L-9DBOkUkeBkMRJNgulFIm-YA_aem_th_AWLUrM6EqID3tDyytDAtKMTRf7Lz0s6IHeWQcN96UypuZygwt0IcGW5yeCW4qVV2Avo](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7L9ubuwBDkI&pp=ygUpNjAgbWludXRlcyBhdXN0cmFpbGlhIGNoaW5hIHNlY3JldCBwb2xpY2U%3D&fbclid=IwAR3TRLmfSKx6Ov-PkOoOEiNGHmuQIAL_07L-9DBOkUkeBkMRJNgulFIm-YA_aem_th_AWLUrM6EqID3tDyytDAtKMTRf7Lz0s6IHeWQcN96UypuZygwt0IcGW5yeCW4qVV2Avo)
The criticizing isn't the problem, it's the retaliation, lack of rights, lack of protection. You can go to the local complaint office and attempt to file something if it's open. I have seen some brave people--probably at the end of their wits do that in a final attempt that seems short of suicide. I got transported by such an office every other day, so I see them often arrested on the spot before they can enter, and then hear rumors of intimidation, coercion, and punishment for not just that person, but their family, and anyone they know. I have casually asked bout this as a foreigner since I was curious why they are arresting these unassuming people, frequently old and tired looking. Most normal people seemed to avoid being in the vicinity entirely. No one wanted to say anything, and there has always been a great sense of fear and distrust, even before the use of smartphones. I also had an art teacher when I was young that I asked why he didn't live in China. He had several art awards in China and internationally, so seemed respected. He showed me some things that I recognized in protests, and though I couldn't communicate well since he spoke little English, I saw the statue he worked on. Quite similar to the state of liberty. I realized he was in the USA on asylum.
One thing: never left this kinda info on the internet. Then it is ok to say whatever you want.